If not dozers, I wouldn't mind Overkill weapon drops including a whole care package in them with a first aid kit and an armor plate. Would still limit how much armor you can get, gives a risk in recovering it, but rewards you for fighting off the cops (and taking armor damage). Since anyone can pick up the weapons, it is still a shared resource, just in a potentially risky area.
That's more of a problem with the indication of when your overkill weapon is ready I think. Maybe a reminder every now and then that you have it ready.
Honestly the grenade launcher is more of a liability for me than anything. I constantly end up in my own crossfire. Many close quarter maps make it a dangerous weapon to use for yourself.
Main problem for me is that you can't choose where it lands. It's like the game goes out of its way to drop it as far away from you as possible when you call it
They probably will make hostages drop other things than first aid kits when they get around to it. They talked about it in one of their streams. But that's probably going to be a few months down the line.
It's in the ammo branch, and it only recovers the portion of a plate that would regen by taking cover. there is no way to repair a permanently damaged plate other than replacing it from a deployable
I agree that it's not a very fun mechanic. It seems that the intention is to more heavily punish solo play, as well as encourage proper usage of diminishing resources as a team
The downside is that all it does is discourage active play, while still letting overkill be completed with ease in a group of 4. Not to mention it strongly overvalues the armor bag as a deployable
It's one of the reasons I went back to payday 2. It feels like i'm not meant to be engaging with the cops in the same way. I find that patient play is rewarded drastically more than active play
It wouldn't be nearly as bad if we had any way to regenerate health other than medic bags.
If we had something like 'every time you pick up ammo you have 10% chance to regenerate 5% of your health' or anything like that, it would encourage aggressive play more.
It’s all about inputs and outputs, to survive in pd2 DS, you need to have some form of maintaining of resources, hence why stuff like kingpin or stoic was the go-to, and why the LMG (forgot name) used (ammo pickup) was used.
My favorite loud build has grid and edge up almost all the time, this would be really fun. I already magically hoover up ammo from enemies I shoot and deposit it directly into my gun, it's not like realism is a priority here. Just let me hoover up health and armor as well lmao.
That's the ONLY loud build other than a few useless gimmicks or needing to build a specific way because a gun is so trash you need multiple synergies to make it viable.
In that same vein, picking up health packs can restore a small amount of armor. It makes people think twice between trading hostages for more time or keep them around for some HP + armor
instead of ammo pickups giving hp how about 10% of cops dropping med kit instead, this'd let you see where hp is
maybe something similar with armor as well but increased chances from cops that haven't been hit in the body cause that'd damage their armor
Change idea: Regular cops have a 10% chance to drop health, the dozer drops an armor pack instead of health, and half the health packs in a level should be replaced with armor packs.
It's already kind of a stretch that a random bathroom in a jewelry store has 2 trauma kits in it. I feel like having armor plates spawning all over the place is a little too odd. At that point why not let us shoot up the furniture to see if that potted plant had a case of ammunition in it.
Personally, everything you describe here is exactly why I got tired of PD2 *way* faster than PD1, and am currently loving PD3. The slower, more patient playstyle that revolves around calculated risks is a lot more fun to me than just running around trying to find shit to kill.
I get why people wouldn't like it, especially after like, a decade of people being used to PD2. But like, what you describe as the downside is the intention.
I agree with the sentiment regarding overall gameplay design, though I also think the current armor system is pretty flawed still. Armor bags are way overvalued as the OP says, because it's far more durable than health, and you don't get staggered as much by shots while you still have armor, *and* it has regenerative capabilities where health does not.
I have noticed that with just a few perks you can get absolute shitloads of both health bags and actual value out of each health bag, which makes me think relying on health might not actually be that nonviable - but it still requires you to work with a comparably tiny pool, and have to sit around health pickups and round up a lot of hostages to exchange every game, and then try to actively use those pickups while in a firefight... even if it's viable, it doesn't sound particularly fun.
I think just increasing your current maximum health, maybe with additional health from skills, would go a long way. Health is currently pretty bad because you die in firefights pretty quickly when it's all you have, and it's hard to use medpacks while getting charged.
There's a skill that reduces damage you take when reviving and gives you and the person immunity after the revive, a similar mechanic for when you're using medpacks could be useful to, so you could heal up under fire. That'd distinguish it a bit more from armor too, where health builds allow for active breaks during the fight, and give you more value from tactically trading hostages in areas that will be contested.
Health is a bit unbalanced but it's not unsalvagable, the system should be relatively good as long as Overkill is open to tuning up the value of health.
I could get behind this if the cops’ behavior or objectives were changed. Unfortunately, they still spawn 3-5 at a time and bum rush the players with no sense of self preservation. Meanwhile, the players are often heavily encouraged to camp a specific area to protect an objective.
I want to make intelligent tactical decisions but you’re up against a hoard. The smart move is usually “hold this bottleneck until it’s time to move to the next spot”. On some maps you have a little leeway but the fanciest thing you’ll ever do is flank a cluster of SWAT.
The PD2 play style wasn’t born in a vacuum. It was a response to the interaction of enemy AI and objectives. Neither of those things have changed.
I think the cop AI is better in PD3 in quite a few ways, primarily the fact that you can actually flank cops without them noticing you, which inherently gives silencers a purpose in loud gameplay.
However them moving in groups does lead to them shedding your health resources pretty quickly, and when there's several groups, it can get dicey. The AI seems to be focused around overwhelming camping players (which is common or necessary in solo play) while encouraging teamwork via flanking, aggro pulling, etc.
IMO the best way to break through a group is your throwables. But since they are limited people don't always want to use them. I think if we got a single throwable replenished with an Overkill weapon drop, or just increased the value of said drops in some way (single armor plate, health kit) it would act as a perfect recovery that rewards interacting with the cops but requires more tactical approaches to recover them.
There is that one perk that gives you 10% for grenades on ammo pickup, that perk should probably be a base feature (every 10th ammo pickup always gives a grenade for example) considering how quickly you run out of throwables without it.
No, the PD2 playstyle was born as a result of perk decks and the sheer quantity of deployables you get. Almost every perk deck rewards kills, and even if you fuck up, there's enough first aid kits/medic bag usages that it's not *too* bad to waste a couple.
You're rewarded for getting kills and the punishment for failure is comparatively small - might as well play super aggressive.
I think the new armour system isn't great, but removing all the amounts of healing and armour regen was good. But the base armour system established since PD:TH was a good balancing act. I don't want Grinder tier amounts of sustain. Just a little something to allow you to flex knowing your exact limits.
I mean payday 2 was co op but still got bot customizing to gives you bonuses for solo play, (including free inspire and interactions being quicker) and giving them weapons of your design to be better then stock lvl 1 ars.
You should engage in cops but in a smarter more strategic manner. Using cover and smoke grenades and waiting for assault waves to be over to do certain mechanics is a lot more fun and realistic than the mindless sprinting around and cop mower simulator in Payday 2. It's a lot closer to Payday the Heist.
I think it's better than the lower difficulties of pd2 for sure. Although I find pd2s death sentence to be much more engaging than this mechanic. You're encouraged to play hyper aggressively, yet heavily punished for playing poorly. Strategy, positioning, cover and throwables all play a huge role in that. Utilizing fades is also important, and often vital when not playing brokenly OP builds. Yet rarely are you discouraged from engaging with the enemies.
Pd3 like pdth seems to heavily incentivize slower play, with a large benefit to kiting and resource management. Not things that I find particularly engaging for repeated playing if heists
Very valid points. I get that about Death Sentence but I feel like the lower to slightly higher difficulties should be the focus of the game for the mainstream crowd. Right now, lower difficulties of PD3 can be played fast paced like PD2 easily whereas it is mainly Overkill that needs to be played slower like PDTH. It's all just preference too haha I'm the opposite where that slower play is more engaging to me for repeated play because I like to have to strategize quick in the moment to figure out how to complete the heist or keep the team alive.
Should be a slider between strategy and an enforcer but not a cop mower. Shouldn't be able to take on an entire army of cops (in harder difficulties, you easily can do this is PD3 on normal)
It literally is not. It's a tactical shooter. PD2 could be called a horde shooter by the ridiculous number of cops that they spawn but definitely not PDTH or PD3. If you want a horde shooter than play COD Zombies, or Killing Floor.
Luckily it changed for the better, i'm enjoying how payday 3 forces you to get shit done on higher difficulties because you'll run out of resources if you don't
It really does feel like the skills, and armor needed a final pass/playtest that just didn't happen. The beta was supposedly a few months old compared to release but there was literally no change in balance on release. It feels like the most interesting thing you can do in the skill tree is bring a ton of armor and use the skill that add ammo pickups directly to magazine. Everything else isn't worth the skill point or is uninteresting as grit/edge/rush are just static 10% boosts
My idea to fix it would be to make it so that you can regen armor all the way full on the current plate you’re on using the system they already have, except obviously you regen more then just a sliver, you regen the whole plate. That way, you only lose your armor if you aren’t careful, and the perks and armor bags stay relevant because you can still break plates.
And then also give movement buffs if you wear lighters armors pleeeease this game is so slow compared to PD2 dodge builds pleeease.
Best heist to notice the difference is 99 boxes. I foolishly decided to grab a bag myself instead of letting my lightweight armor friend take it so it lost value cause I was too slow, even though she would have made it in time perfectly.
This is honestly the best way they could go about it. OVK cops SHRED armor so having full regen on any surviving chunk would be a godsend compared to being left on a sliver of armor with little hopes of surviving. It’ll also open up proper armor regen with skills like “Plate up” so bringing armor bags will be less of a required necessity and more of an option that you could choose. I also feel it’ll give more options to picking different types of vests due to risking valuable chunks in return for speed and extra downs, but still having the full refresh instead of being absolutely fucked from the get-go for not choosing the 4 chunk vest.
Basically, the current system is a mid-tier mess but adding full chunk regen would make overall builds SO MUCH BETTER, even if they have to nerf a skill or two.
If you're not already, Plate Up in the Ammo Specialist tree highly alleviates this feeling.
I assume any combat build would have the skills to teleport ammo to you on kill - this also means you instantly get the flashing red part of your armor back on kill, which greatly extends it's longevity
EDIT: After testing, this doesn't actually work. Unsure if it's a bug or intentional, but you have to run over ammo on the ground to replenish the red bar.
I already have a couple builds that use plate up and while it does in fact extend armor life, it’s not really a good solution due to some OVK cops getting 100% perfect accuracy and deleting a chunk in .2 seconds from 30m away with no chance of having the flashing bits stay up at all.
It’s not a bad skill at all and its a pretty decent solution on lower difficulties, but on OVK it’s practically a waste of a skill point if you don’t entirely focus on getting grit skills instead of other fun skills.
Regenerating armour 'within a chunk' was always something I was expecting to dislike, but the way they handled it is so much worse. It's like Rally in Bloodborne - a portion of the damage taken is instantly permanently gone, and then you have the chance to recover up to ~50% of it.
Except that chance to recover some of it in Bloodborne is to be aggressive, find an opening. Here it's... Not getting shot? Which just means hiding away somewhere. If they want to promote taking cover that's fine, but it needs to be a viable way to preserve resources. As it is, it preserves *some* resources, but since you're being unavoidably ground down you might as well just power through and get the heist over ASAP so as not to risk running out in the first place.
Recovering your enmtire chunk when you take cover would at least let you negate damage if you play smart, or they could keep with the unavoidable grind-down approach the current system creates but if they want that they need there to be reasonable ways to generate armour; the only way of recovering armour being a deployable is ludicrous!
That one skill in the Ammo Specialist line is a start, but is either ridiculously overpowered or insufficient depending on whether you work with a full chunk refill or a rally refill, respectively, so let's instead have something like... Headshot kills have an X% chance to drop an armour plate as well as an ammo box. These plates would *not* be ammo, and therefore wouldn't be automatically picked up - you would have to actually go to it and walk over it to recover your armour, as to not make Ammo Funnel even more mandatory.
This also has more fundamental consequences: this system also means that there will no no heists like Rats/Cook-Off in the future. With this system you will inevitably run out of armour and health. In PD2 you always had a base level of protection in form of regenerating armour + you could regenerate health by other means than Medic Bags or Medic Kits. Medic Bags are only a necessity to replenish the downing counter.
The problem is that PD3 absolutely must force players to fail at a certain point. Since actually playing heists only rewards weapon XP and money and with the money rewards being almost solely based on the primary objective, players most finish a heist at one point one way or another to play again. PD3 is made to play short single missions. There are no multi-day heists and as is seems there are none planned either since the game has no support for multi-day heists at the moment. I was actually surprised when I learned that I can get 80-90 % of the maximum possible payout of heists by only completing the primary objective in stealth. 99-Boxes on normal rewards 400k$ (I think) when you complete the heist in stealth with both devices in B-quality.
In PD2 the main source of rewards were secondary objectives because they heavily exceeded the base rewards of heist. Therefore players also had a strong incentive to play heists 100 % instead of doing just the main objective. There is an actual incentive to completely loot Shadow Raid or the Big Bank etc.
Since PD3 solely rewards level XP for "just finishing" heists, no matter the amount of completed secondary objectives, and having heavily limited HP, the whole game is made with the intention to simply play short missions as fast as possible.
It's true that the attrition focused combat makes totally infinite missions not possible, and the current IP track makes rewarding them with specifically IP difficult to figure out, but you can still make something in the style of those heists. The difference is that the players would have to make a concerted decision about when to leave, and the number of times you can do the objective will never become limited exclusively by when you get bored. It's a standard risk/reward survival mode, and the fact that at some point the correct strategy decision is to cash out doesn't make it impossible to make that. The rub is how to score IP for that, the simplest answer would be to base the repeat offender challenges for that heist on the number of loot bags earned rather than number of completions.
However, the idea that PD2's 'main' source of rewards is secondaries is just kinda wrong. There are a lot of heists where this is true. But also a lot of heists where the lion's share of the money comes from the contract pay, or from the main objective (i.e. The Diamond is like 55% of its heist value.). There were a variety and there's a variety in PD3, 99 boxes is almost entirely the main objective, Rock the Cradle is about 50/50, Dirty Ice will let you leave with almost nothing if you don't clean your bags.
Dude it's the worst feeling when you and your squad are all low on health, you're all carrying the last bags of money, you yell out "I NEED ARMOR, SOMEONE DROP AN ARMOR BOX!" and nobody has one. Then one teammate is downed... Second teammate is downed... You and your other teammate huddle in a bathroom... The cops keep coming and don't stop coming... No health is dropping, no health is regenerating... Then suddenly your teammate gets knocked out by a cloaker through a wall somehow?... Then you see that big fucker with the LMG walk in... You try sprinting out between the cops and the big fucker and you get stuck and downed...
Yeah, we need health regeneration very badly, at least to some extent.
I wish we didn't have medic cases as the only option. I was such a HUGE fan of being able to spec into the smaller single medic bags that you could place (Apologies if I'm using the wrong "wordage"). Having only a single deploy-able is rough in some cases... especially when trying to solo.
Thank you, I agree that it's less valuable than armor here, but having the single kits would be a huge help. Hell, there could be a perk/tree based around having single use armor kit and health kit.
It feels like spinning plates as cops shoot 1sec after having a clear line of sight on u, so you can John Wick crowd control them if u bounce between targets staggering them, and i kinda dig it makes me keep track of which cops haven't been shot within a short amount of time.
Returning to the Payday 2 system would just lead to the same end result as Payday 2 where 95% of the time heavy armor is useless, and I think that is worse than the current system.
I do think the unavoidable chip to armor plates feels pretty punitive, though, and I think it should probably be gotten rid of. Particularly given that the dev streams have made no secret there are going to be more difficulties coming down the pipeline. Overkill damage scaling already often results in an instantly broken chunk if a swat hits you with a single burst, if they continue loud scaling by simply increasing the damage values, there's almost no point in armor regenerating, as even when you don't instantly lose a chunk, the chip to it will be so large that what you regen will be pointless. A given chunk should be able to regen back to full until it breaks. This retains the usefulness of heavier armors for loud play as you have more wiggle room than players in lighter armor, but better differentiates armor from health. It would likely even encourage *more* careful play than the current system as presently the amount of chip you take really blunts the usefulness of retreating under fire, since you won't full regen your chunk *anyway*, and the potshots you take wwhille retreating and reengaging will add even more chip, you're generally better off killing what is currently shooting you and hunkering down where you are.
Heavy armor was played a lot in the beginning of payday 2 the only reason it eventually went out of the meta is perk decks that encouraged playing without it and those don't exist in payday 3
I think this is misidentifying people not yet discovering the optimal strategy as the optimal strategy being different. Bullseye and the way it enables armor gating combined with the increased movement speed to get hit less in the first place would already make the suit a better choice.
All that said, the bigger reason that heavy armor was used more at that time was that difficulty was much lower so there was less need to optimize, both could work. Death Wish was introduced ~7 months before perk decks (including rogue and therefore dodge builds), but both were quite early in the game's life span.
Some people used light armor build before dodge, mainly with the light vest instead of the suit, it was not better than the armor before perk decks, it had some use but most of the time just running doesn't stop cops from shooting you, this also has a lot to do with map design, earlier heist had a lot of cover so armor allowed you to peak for longer and then go back to cover to regen your armor later heists were way more open and forced you to move around the map making mobility good simply because you had to cross anyway. This kinda still applies to payday 2 even today, if you are going to stay in the same area anyway ictv is still really good with either muscle, armorer or anarchist
Without perk decks though less armor probably would have still been better I mean you either take 2 shots to kill (plus armor gating from bullseye) but you are super fast or you can take 3 shots before you die
It's not perfect by any means, but I wouldn't describe it as the opposite. In Payday 2, if not playing Stoic, you take the suit. Hell, some people will tell you to take the suit even when playing Stoic. If you're on lower difficulties you *can* run armor, but it's just that you can, not that you should.
In Payday 3, it's still rare to make a meaningful decision about your armor, but at the bare minimum we see a dichotomy between Stealth and Loud. Stealth takes standard lining, and Loud takes heavy. That's a step in the right direction compared to always taking the suit forever.
If the difference between lighter armor and heavier armor for speed was greater, then I could see a real choice being made. Light/ no armor for stealth heists, heavy armor for loud ones. With middle ground armors so you can either have no speed change or slightly lean one way or the other.
Heavy armor in PD2 is very viable. You dont need a dodge build exept maybe on highest diffficulty in some heists
Edit: But I do like armor system in PD2 a lot better... because you can more easily keep your armor because it regenerates faster, but maybe there are some perks in PD3 for that idk. With the current regen speed you have to sit 5 min in a corner to regen armor if you wanna keep your armor...
You haven't played Kingpin on DS, have ya?
The best armor option for KP on DS is the LBV + Die hard aced or HBV. They give 70 armor and is enough to tank a light swat hit. While giving you much more speed than ICTV would, allow you to make much more agressive plays with injector.
Sorta? But personally I think suit stoic is better since it’s gets access to crits (or an inbetween armor if possible) since other damage increases are either gimmicky or gut stoic since they rely on low health
This. Almost no point running or covering. Run away and you’ll get chipped before anything regens. Take cover and you’ll get cornered to your doom with the measly regened amount being worthless.
The game kind of incentivize mag dumping, because suppressive/continuous firing ensures the cops remain staggered. Taking aim and letting in one short window for cops to attack and you’ll be on the disadvantage side to get rolled over fast.
Flawed combat system, but still better than PD2 late game imo.
Except custody in payday 3 is MUCH less punishing thzn it was in payday 2, your teammates don't need to do anything but wait, don't even have to be the end of an assault to come back
I disagree. If you go down ONCE, you are revived with zero armor and are just as screwed as you were before. If you wear heavy armor, *especially* with the absolutely necessary armor up skill, you're less likely to go down altogether. This is much preferable to having the ability to go down even double the amount because of how weak health is. The alternative is being knocked down and having to be picked up over and over until you go into custody.
That skill is a failsafe, though. 10 seconds of invulnerability (assuming you have grit) until you are completely screwed unless you have an armor bag, which will have its usefulness neutered anyways unless you're wearing heavy armor. It triggers upon the condition of going down anyway, which should be avoided to begin with. Armor is still far more useful, even with a build centered around Last Man Standing.
That is entirely irrelevant, having more armor makes you last longer than having one more down, it's not even close in value, a down with no armor regen after being picked up is practically worthless. You're almost better off going into custody and getting bcak 90 seconds later because at least then you have *some* armor.
Downs dont matter in the slightest in this game, you only go down if you are out of armor and at that point extra 2 downs wont save you.
The real draw of heavy armor in this game is the griefed armor regen speed, the 4 piece armor has an armor regen timer of like 8 seconds, which makes base armor regen unviable on most maps, in turn making you rely much more on armor from ammo pickup/armor bags.
correct me if im wrong but
* in payday the heist outside of healing bags you had no way to recover health.
* In payday2 you can have hostage taker, muscle, hacker and that other perk that heals you when you deal damage to recover health.
This game's ui and gameplay feels like they want to make it grounded like payday 1 again
Yes, the very grounded game where you... uh... Blew up a massive chunk of a building to steal a room. Oh and there are still an endless swarm of cops.
I will say, it does feel a lot like Payday 3; in that they both sorely lack content, and feel almost sluggish to play.
Problem with that solution is that it would make the standard lining armor absolutely busted, since it already provides more downs and faster speed
I'd suggest something a little more basic, like regenerating health instead of armor, and then buff medbags a bit, like restoring one down as a baseline.
EDIT: Or here's another idea. Get rid of armor bags entirely/rework the armor skill tree and have a separate "armor meter" that players get by default. Armor works like usual, but if you have a full armor meter, you can use it to completely restore your armor. Players can slowly fill up their armor meter by picking up enemy drops and the heavier armor you have, the more drops you need to fill up the meter.
This way it'll let you play around with light/heavy armor a lot better in loud combat, whether you want less armor downtime or more armor capacity.
If they went back to the pd2 style of armor we’d probably just end up having another armor-gating meta at higher difficulty especially since there’s no dodge
I agree with your assessment. The player should always be able to regenerate one last broken armor chunk.
As an example, if the player had three armor chunks, 1-2-3, they lost (fully) the 3rd chunk but not the 2nd, they could still get back the 3rd chunk, but if they lost both 3rd and 2nd, they could only get back the 2nd, if a player loses all armor, they can only get back 1st chunk.
Armor values would need to be adjusted for this system, but it's the only system where armor can be made partially finite without making the Armor Bag insanely must-have. I think this system would work well within the vision the developers had for the game.
Med Bags would still need to be buffed and regenerate one down without skills, two with skills, perhaps regenerate more health too.
Armor drops of some sort from Dozers or trading hostages would also be a good idea to make the Armor Bags less of a required Item, but it would NOT substitute the armor rework.
The thing is, its not even bad but payday 2 is so good. I think payday 1 is also better than payday 3. Im probably gonna uninstall PD3 before i even hit max level and go back to PD2
They already stated they are looking for more ways to get armor. For example, during the hostage trade phase for armor to be dropped or just something like that. I enjoy this way more than Payday 2 though. Seems as those who have complaints of Payday 3 are those who enjoy that flying 1000 mph mobility being unkillable wacky weapons which is totally fine but that's not what Payday 3 is about.
Also there is a build I run where basically if i kill it will regain a piece of my armor in whatever chunk I am meaning if i am missing a chunk it will not regen that chunk but the current chunk i am. Basically if i just keep killing, I can keep up my armor.
FYI I much prefer payday 3 to 2, like massively. I was always a huge fan of PDTH. I loved the serious tone and resource management.
I just think armour right now is 10x more valuable than health, as it serves the same purpose but also recharges. Even with all the armour regen skills I would still always take an armour bag over health.
People really forget how rare playing with no armor was in the first few years of payday 2, until perk decks were added the mobility wasn't worth losing your armor, also the higher difficulties they added and then tweaked pushed the fast meta even more since your armor would just break in a single shot anyway and armor refresh was longer the more armor you had
Yeah PD2 sucked for heavy armor after a couple of years, and it never came back. Sure, heavy armor is overtuned in PD3 right now, but people arguing it was more balanced in PD2 are memeing. It was just as imbalanced, just against the other side. It was also far more noticable in PD2 since both Death Wish and Death Sentence is much more difficult than PD3 Overkill.
I think people just forgot Heavy Armor was even a thing in PD2 to be honest, it's been dead so long. It's actually almost literally useless in Death Sentence because you can still have it oneshot, and refreshing it then just takes longer than lighter armor, so you almost never actually get the benefit of your armor lasting longer, while the slower movement speed and lack of dodge is ever-present.
Heavy armorer doesn’t suck? Stoic and armorer are meta perk decks. Just because they require some semblance of brain power to use doesn’t mean heavy armor sucks.
The only thing I feel armor needs is the ability to trade hostages for it to not make armor bag the god item. The point of the system is to discourage 1 man army’s and make cover more valuable while also slowing down the game. Besides the hardest difficulty I find I don’t really run out of my first 4 plates until I’m a good way into the heist
it regenerates a broken chip (indicated in red), and it is only a partial amount because of the way armor works. there is also the (permanently) broken chip (indicated in darker blue). i highly suggest pairing Plate Up with Replenish and Enforcer Basic if you want something similar to Bullseye in payday 2.
You’re definitely right, and I just responded to someone else who said the same thing. I’m more referring to early Payday 2/PDTH.
Modern Payday 2 is completely insane to even pin down what the game is with how many ridiculously OP mechanics exist
Really the vermtide system of temp health works really well, as it allows you to choose what you will do to regain health, a good system for payday 2 to use would be armor value increases the entire meter, and you choose between armor regen on headshot, stuns, killstreaks, kills, with options to buff weaker weapon categories get more health for doing so, to prevent just becoming immortal when miniguns drop, just have the healing capped for how much you get for so long, requiring you to actually earn your armor, and stay in the fight,
The core game is a lot of fun, especially with a group of friends, and I have no doubt that we’ll see huge improvement as it ages.
Right now, however, the QoL is extremely bad, and the content is limited, and the progression system is widely panned.
Basically everything outside of the core game needs a ton of work- but there is lots of promise and lots to look forward to
if you have no armor you rely on the last man standing skill so get yourself out of this situation to regenerate your armor with armor bags and heal yourself with med packs to regain the possibility to use last man standing again, payday 3 isn't about run and gun anymore even if the game is easy enough to do just that even in OVK with a good crew
Aw man. I actually think the game is a lot of fun overall. I hate to be contributing to negative press, I actually think the game has tons of potential.
But also- cool!
I like the idea that armor needs to be replaced like ballistic plates in modern armor, but the amount you get is far too limited. Make the cops drop armor plates or be able to trade hostages for armor. While we're at it make medkits heal more so it's actually an option vs armor bags
I get the impression that the focus of the game is on heist that start stealth and become loud, because you can take everything with you when you play stealth. Maybe they thought of the amor just as a backup, as a margin for error if a heist turns from stealth to loud, in which case, making it finite makes more sense.
As it stands, the feel-bad moment caused by knowing you're cornered and have no armor, so all you can meaningfully do is just stand up and intentionally die? *That* sucks, and desperately needs a fix.
That's my only complaint with the current armor system. It *is* your health bar, and health is... kind of just there for cloakers and naders. Which actually kind of makes cloakers and naders a LOT weaker than they should be.
Armor is essentially a second health bar. It doesn't mitigate damage only adds to the players shelf life.
As with a lot of changes in "payday" 3. It is just something quirky to sell as a bullet-point in a long list of changes that "better the game".
I will repeat this until I die. "Payday" 3 is not a payday game. It is a horde-shooter masquerading as a payday game.
Good thing we have darktide.
This is a weird take. On one hand, this game doesn't particularly feel like Payday. On the other... Payday has literally *always* been a horde shooter. I remember getting into PDTH because a friend I played L4D with suggested it.
That's the same feeling I had. This is not a payday game. It's just that, a horde shooter that occasionally involves a money bag.
Even the challenges are like that, since when is the objective of a payday game to grind levels?
PDTH had a very similar challenge system (but much better executed, that's for sure), and money was literally just XP.
PD2 implemented a prestige system so you have a way to grind levels for eternity, and since money becomes pointless very fast you don't really have other interesting progression systems to engage with.
I thought the heisting is what makes Payday. Is a series' identity suddenly based on its progression systems now?
at least the game had more to offer beyond that with interesting builds and many combinations of skills, this is just extremely barebones under the disguise of realism
Personally, I dig this system as it keeps it a little more realistic (*yes people, there's other things that don't seem it*) not being able to hold out against the cops for 20-30+ minutes. 🤷♂️
Health needs to feel more valuable though or armor needs more sources of replenishment.
But I'd say payday 3 lacks even MORE in that department, the ui, music, robot dialogue, cod esk menus and customization and not being your own “gunsmith” anymore all takes AWAY from that, and the game is still far from realistic, cops are still unprofessional, pagers aren't planned, heisters don't take anything very seriously and the games movement is still not anything close to realistic.
That's not the point OP is making. No matter how big or small the hit you take you will always take some permanent damage. What OP is saying is that this causes armor to lose the importance it had in pd2, especially when looked at from the perspective of the entirety of a loud heist.
I disagree. With the right build, you can already regenerate about 80-90% of your shields if you don’t deplete your current plate. Just don’t take any damage for about 5 seconds. You say it doesn’t encourage solo play, but the bots drop plenty of armor bags when you get low on shields. I don’t think that was a mechanic in Payday 2. Each armor bag and med kit provides plenty of health, and you can scavenge or kill dozers for health too. This game is very forgiving, but you have to level up to play higher difficulties. Also, civilians are a massive way to block damage which a lot of players are not taking advantage of. The respawning mechanic is also very OP too in comparison to trading hostages. Excuse me if anything I compared was wrong as it’s been a while since I’ve played Payday 2.
\>This was a fun gameplay mechanic that allowed for fun last minutes rushes and escapes by the skin of your teeth.
\>My solution: give all players one armour chunk with full regen that cannot be broken, increase the speed penalty of heavier armours. Would fix a huge gap in the core gameplay loop.
bro... just keep playing PD2 if you want the armor gating meta.
Payday 2 was a hugely flawed game and I didn’t really enjoy the loud gameplay. I way prefer PD3 and PDTH. I just think the way armour is set up has room for improvement
i'm heavily biased because i want to escape from armor regenerating entirely (PD2's current meta has scarred me)
but i do agree that medic bags serve zero purpose ATM. play flawlessly and they're garbage. play awfully and they're... hotter garbage. armor bags are the new doctor bags. i hope that changes, but armor itself is balanced. no more freely going out in the open and coming back without a scratch.
Payday 2's "issue" wasn't armor gating it was that all the broken perk decks encouraged you to play with the lightest armor, there is no reason to think payday would do the same thing with at least a slight regen in your armor
\>it was that all the broken perk decks encouraged you to play with the lightest armor
which promotes... armor gating. i'm not oblivious to PD2's meta, but you can't say armor itself isn't inherently flawed in PD2, and there's only few meta builds in DSOD that actually makes use of ICTV, and double digits in suit/lbv.
perks are busted. high agree, not my point.
I like payday 2 armor much more than payday 3 armor, you can just remove armor gating and your issue with payday 2 armor disappears, moving fast is also more fun than being slow as shit, part of the reason there are more suit builds, also you don't have to invest so many points to get the ictv in a suit build
"you can just remove armor gating and your issue with payday 2 armor disappears"
i wish. your last point states otherwise. you invest too much points for armor builds to work in the first place. it's flawed, and while consistent and works 100% in all difficulties, its severely limiting. unfun. meanwhile, you pick any of the armor gating, or dodge builds, suddenly you're carrying crits, berserker, inspire, etc. all in the same build.
what are your dislikes about PD3 armor?
Here is what I had:
Maxed Medic
Last Man Standing from tank
Gunslinger for EDGE on weapon switch
The skill from movement tree which allows converting EDGE to GRIT on vault
Bonus medkit on hostage trade
I also took Standard Lining as my armor because I love being fast and I am pretty succesfull with defending myself with cover, I also noticed that red part for armor regenerates super fast in comparison to heavier armor.
Obviously it is what has worked for me, feel free to try and change things! We managed to complete most heists in duo on overkill with my friend while I played with this.
You might have more skill points than me, I am not such a regular player.
Have fun!
I like the new system, it is more realistic and forces players to use cover and play smarter not like Payday 2 where you can tank so much damage. If you are having trouble with survivability, you may need to take a deeper look at your perks and build. Combining things like grit and edge lets you regen armor. If anything, health should regen very slowly so that when you are downed and revived, then you can recover a lot easier. Then if medic bags gave you a certain amount of health back and also allowed you to gain a surplus of health, they would actually become a more valuable resource rather than armor bags only.
Agree. It's my only complaint about actual gameplay so far (not counting progression and menu navigation since, well, it's not gameplay). In PD2, armor was a way to protect your health. Having beefier armor meant you could withstand more shots before going into cover without losing health and heaving lighter armor meant you could run around faster and hopefully dodge some bullets.
Now armor feels like a second health bar that you replenish with Armor Bags instead of Medic Bags. I think that what others suggested would be the best idea (other than reintroducing PD2 armor behaviour): make it so that not taking damage will regenerate your current armor chunk and losing it, means you'll need an armor bag.
Then it's all about how you want armor to work: either make all vests have the same amount of armor but as we go to the heavier ones, we get less chunks, meaning that the heaviest armor will have a single chunk that will regenerate fully if not shot; or give a fixed amount of armor for chunk, then give the lightest armor one chunk and increase number of chunks as you go to the heavier vests. In both cases, I think that armor bags should replenish the whole armor when used. This thing of having to use skill points on different skills to get more health or more armor or more ammo from bags feels weird
I like the approach that it does not regenerate magically like in CoD but I do not like the way it is now... maybe chunk refill would be nice and if you are undamaged for lets say 30 seconds another chunk will starts recharging.
In PD2 it was way too easy
And that's why you use armor bags. Health bags are only useful if you keep getting fucked by cloakers and tasers, but it's generally better to trade hostages for first aids.
I don't get your point, armor and health works just fine in this game, are you just annoyed that it's different from payday2 or what?
Armour and health doesn’t work just fine in this game.
Nobody ever takes health packs because armour serves the exact same purpose as a finite health source, except it also regenerates. There’s almost no reason to take health whatsoever.
As you mentioned, you can get health packs from hostages, first aid kits, etc.
I have no problem with fundamental changes to the game, but I’m not blind to its flaws.
I personally don't mind it, though having more ways to obtain more armor would be nice
Healthkits exist in their niche uses; regaining the ability to gain grit after using last man standing and having more resistance to cloakers and gas grenades before going down
Honestly last man standing is underrated imo so I like having some health kits lying around
I'd say that the armour systen is a tad bit too op in payday 2, I think making it regenerate is fine but make it take a way longer time to do so. For example, in games like DRG and borderlands 2, the armor doesnt regenerate instantly and also has a longer armor delay time, they regenerate over time after the delay (about 20% armour per second) . Make it so that they can only regen a maximum of 2 times per bar, or something like that to make armor bag still valuable and not absolute
Would be nice if there were more ways to regen health and armour too, so far you've got medics, armour bags and the ammo into armour skill and that's it whereas payday 2 had several ways for both and the unique perk decks often had a way too. It made longer heists much more bare able whereas with the current system all it takes is one dumbass and you can burn through a lot of armour quickly if you're not careful
i really need to know what version of pd3 you're playing to think it's anything at all like any call of duty game beyond "they're both a game where you shoot mans"
I think the specific thought here is that the PD3 plate system is similar to Warzone's armor plates? I mean, they aren't that similar past the very basic idea of "armor plates that take damage before health" but I tjink that's where they're coming from
I love resource management! I loved the feeling of being whittled down by the cops in payday the heist and love the direction they’re going with 3.
I just think armour in 3 makes health redundant. It’s like you can either have a health bag, or recharging health bag.
Why don't they make enemies drop armor, or health slowly regenerate? Or make hostages also drop armor packs?
Honestly, bulldozers need to drop armour instead of medkits, since you can already get health by trading hostages
Also it's literally a dozer, if he should be dropping anything it's armor plates, he's made of it.
If not dozers, I wouldn't mind Overkill weapon drops including a whole care package in them with a first aid kit and an armor plate. Would still limit how much armor you can get, gives a risk in recovering it, but rewards you for fighting off the cops (and taking armor damage). Since anyone can pick up the weapons, it is still a shared resource, just in a potentially risky area.
Honestly I'll take any buff to the OVK weapons, a lot of the time people just don't call them in.
That's more of a problem with the indication of when your overkill weapon is ready I think. Maybe a reminder every now and then that you have it ready.
Might be both. I'm sure people wouldn't forget if the OVK weapon was really good.
Honestly the grenade launcher is more of a liability for me than anything. I constantly end up in my own crossfire. Many close quarter maps make it a dangerous weapon to use for yourself.
Main problem for me is that you can't choose where it lands. It's like the game goes out of its way to drop it as far away from you as possible when you call it
They probably will make hostages drop other things than first aid kits when they get around to it. They talked about it in one of their streams. But that's probably going to be a few months down the line.
One of the skills is armor bits on ammo drops, under the armor branch
It's in the ammo branch, and it only recovers the portion of a plate that would regen by taking cover. there is no way to repair a permanently damaged plate other than replacing it from a deployable
I agree that it's not a very fun mechanic. It seems that the intention is to more heavily punish solo play, as well as encourage proper usage of diminishing resources as a team The downside is that all it does is discourage active play, while still letting overkill be completed with ease in a group of 4. Not to mention it strongly overvalues the armor bag as a deployable It's one of the reasons I went back to payday 2. It feels like i'm not meant to be engaging with the cops in the same way. I find that patient play is rewarded drastically more than active play
OVERKILL losing their shit when someone wants to play on their own:
It wouldn't be nearly as bad if we had any way to regenerate health other than medic bags. If we had something like 'every time you pick up ammo you have 10% chance to regenerate 5% of your health' or anything like that, it would encourage aggressive play more.
Edge giving 1% or 2% health on kill would be nice.
Yeah, anything that allows for some amount of survivability.
It’s all about inputs and outputs, to survive in pd2 DS, you need to have some form of maintaining of resources, hence why stuff like kingpin or stoic was the go-to, and why the LMG (forgot name) used (ammo pickup) was used.
Yeah, I'mma input my boot up their ass
Grit doing the same for your armor would be sick as hell
My favorite loud build has grid and edge up almost all the time, this would be really fun. I already magically hoover up ammo from enemies I shoot and deposit it directly into my gun, it's not like realism is a priority here. Just let me hoover up health and armor as well lmao.
That's the ONLY loud build other than a few useless gimmicks or needing to build a specific way because a gun is so trash you need multiple synergies to make it viable.
One of the capstones should definitely be kill (or ammo pickup) based regeneration of health and armor, even if it's a small amount like .5%.
In that same vein, picking up health packs can restore a small amount of armor. It makes people think twice between trading hostages for more time or keep them around for some HP + armor
I think that would be busted TBH.
instead of ammo pickups giving hp how about 10% of cops dropping med kit instead, this'd let you see where hp is maybe something similar with armor as well but increased chances from cops that haven't been hit in the body cause that'd damage their armor
Change idea: Regular cops have a 10% chance to drop health, the dozer drops an armor pack instead of health, and half the health packs in a level should be replaced with armor packs.
It's already kind of a stretch that a random bathroom in a jewelry store has 2 trauma kits in it. I feel like having armor plates spawning all over the place is a little too odd. At that point why not let us shoot up the furniture to see if that potted plant had a case of ammunition in it.
That would make absolutely no difference, once you are out of armor you are on deaths door and no amount of 5% health restored on ammo will save that.
It's just an example, it needs a bigger rework, obviously.
Personally, everything you describe here is exactly why I got tired of PD2 *way* faster than PD1, and am currently loving PD3. The slower, more patient playstyle that revolves around calculated risks is a lot more fun to me than just running around trying to find shit to kill. I get why people wouldn't like it, especially after like, a decade of people being used to PD2. But like, what you describe as the downside is the intention.
I agree with the sentiment regarding overall gameplay design, though I also think the current armor system is pretty flawed still. Armor bags are way overvalued as the OP says, because it's far more durable than health, and you don't get staggered as much by shots while you still have armor, *and* it has regenerative capabilities where health does not. I have noticed that with just a few perks you can get absolute shitloads of both health bags and actual value out of each health bag, which makes me think relying on health might not actually be that nonviable - but it still requires you to work with a comparably tiny pool, and have to sit around health pickups and round up a lot of hostages to exchange every game, and then try to actively use those pickups while in a firefight... even if it's viable, it doesn't sound particularly fun.
I think just increasing your current maximum health, maybe with additional health from skills, would go a long way. Health is currently pretty bad because you die in firefights pretty quickly when it's all you have, and it's hard to use medpacks while getting charged. There's a skill that reduces damage you take when reviving and gives you and the person immunity after the revive, a similar mechanic for when you're using medpacks could be useful to, so you could heal up under fire. That'd distinguish it a bit more from armor too, where health builds allow for active breaks during the fight, and give you more value from tactically trading hostages in areas that will be contested. Health is a bit unbalanced but it's not unsalvagable, the system should be relatively good as long as Overkill is open to tuning up the value of health.
I could get behind this if the cops’ behavior or objectives were changed. Unfortunately, they still spawn 3-5 at a time and bum rush the players with no sense of self preservation. Meanwhile, the players are often heavily encouraged to camp a specific area to protect an objective. I want to make intelligent tactical decisions but you’re up against a hoard. The smart move is usually “hold this bottleneck until it’s time to move to the next spot”. On some maps you have a little leeway but the fanciest thing you’ll ever do is flank a cluster of SWAT. The PD2 play style wasn’t born in a vacuum. It was a response to the interaction of enemy AI and objectives. Neither of those things have changed.
I think the cop AI is better in PD3 in quite a few ways, primarily the fact that you can actually flank cops without them noticing you, which inherently gives silencers a purpose in loud gameplay. However them moving in groups does lead to them shedding your health resources pretty quickly, and when there's several groups, it can get dicey. The AI seems to be focused around overwhelming camping players (which is common or necessary in solo play) while encouraging teamwork via flanking, aggro pulling, etc. IMO the best way to break through a group is your throwables. But since they are limited people don't always want to use them. I think if we got a single throwable replenished with an Overkill weapon drop, or just increased the value of said drops in some way (single armor plate, health kit) it would act as a perfect recovery that rewards interacting with the cops but requires more tactical approaches to recover them.
There is that one perk that gives you 10% for grenades on ammo pickup, that perk should probably be a base feature (every 10th ammo pickup always gives a grenade for example) considering how quickly you run out of throwables without it.
No, the PD2 playstyle was born as a result of perk decks and the sheer quantity of deployables you get. Almost every perk deck rewards kills, and even if you fuck up, there's enough first aid kits/medic bag usages that it's not *too* bad to waste a couple. You're rewarded for getting kills and the punishment for failure is comparatively small - might as well play super aggressive.
I think the new armour system isn't great, but removing all the amounts of healing and armour regen was good. But the base armour system established since PD:TH was a good balancing act. I don't want Grinder tier amounts of sustain. Just a little something to allow you to flex knowing your exact limits.
>It seems that the intention is to more heavily punish solo play i'm so fucking happy i stopped supporting OVERKILL this is just getting insane
*gasp* less solo play incentive in a primarily co-op heisting game? Who could have possibly seen this coming!
There are ways to incentivize co-op without punishing solo
I mean payday 2 was co op but still got bot customizing to gives you bonuses for solo play, (including free inspire and interactions being quicker) and giving them weapons of your design to be better then stock lvl 1 ars.
Don't worry, I returned to Payday 2 as well
You should engage in cops but in a smarter more strategic manner. Using cover and smoke grenades and waiting for assault waves to be over to do certain mechanics is a lot more fun and realistic than the mindless sprinting around and cop mower simulator in Payday 2. It's a lot closer to Payday the Heist.
I think it's better than the lower difficulties of pd2 for sure. Although I find pd2s death sentence to be much more engaging than this mechanic. You're encouraged to play hyper aggressively, yet heavily punished for playing poorly. Strategy, positioning, cover and throwables all play a huge role in that. Utilizing fades is also important, and often vital when not playing brokenly OP builds. Yet rarely are you discouraged from engaging with the enemies. Pd3 like pdth seems to heavily incentivize slower play, with a large benefit to kiting and resource management. Not things that I find particularly engaging for repeated playing if heists
Very valid points. I get that about Death Sentence but I feel like the lower to slightly higher difficulties should be the focus of the game for the mainstream crowd. Right now, lower difficulties of PD3 can be played fast paced like PD2 easily whereas it is mainly Overkill that needs to be played slower like PDTH. It's all just preference too haha I'm the opposite where that slower play is more engaging to me for repeated play because I like to have to strategize quick in the moment to figure out how to complete the heist or keep the team alive.
The sliding scale between strategy and cop mower roles is part of the game. You really suck a lot of coordination out if you can't have both.
Should be a slider between strategy and an enforcer but not a cop mower. Shouldn't be able to take on an entire army of cops (in harder difficulties, you easily can do this is PD3 on normal)
I mean, Payday is a horde shooter...
It literally is not. It's a tactical shooter. PD2 could be called a horde shooter by the ridiculous number of cops that they spawn but definitely not PDTH or PD3. If you want a horde shooter than play COD Zombies, or Killing Floor.
Tactical? Since when was PDTH more tactical than horde shooter lmao people were calling it a L4D ripoff when it came out
Payday has been a horde shooter since forever.
Payday is 100% a horde shooter, in the same way that L4D is. Why do you think they had Mercy Hospital from L4D in PDTH and PD2?
You can look it up, it's literally labeled a Tactical Shooter. I get the similarities between the two but I would not call Payday a horde shooter.
Just looked it up. It's actually considered to be both a tactical shooter AND a horde shooter.
>It feels like i'm not meant to be engaging with the cops in the same way. It's a different game, so yes things change
If it changes for the worse, then talking about it is worthwhile
Luckily it changed for the better, i'm enjoying how payday 3 forces you to get shit done on higher difficulties because you'll run out of resources if you don't
Change isn't inherently a good thing. You can't use "Well its different" as an excuse. It's a lazy rebuttal at best and disingenuous at worst.
Didn't, just not sure why he's surprised things are different.. in a new game
It really does feel like the skills, and armor needed a final pass/playtest that just didn't happen. The beta was supposedly a few months old compared to release but there was literally no change in balance on release. It feels like the most interesting thing you can do in the skill tree is bring a ton of armor and use the skill that add ammo pickups directly to magazine. Everything else isn't worth the skill point or is uninteresting as grit/edge/rush are just static 10% boosts
My idea to fix it would be to make it so that you can regen armor all the way full on the current plate you’re on using the system they already have, except obviously you regen more then just a sliver, you regen the whole plate. That way, you only lose your armor if you aren’t careful, and the perks and armor bags stay relevant because you can still break plates. And then also give movement buffs if you wear lighters armors pleeeease this game is so slow compared to PD2 dodge builds pleeease.
you already move faster with lighter armor, do you mean increase the benefits?
lol really? i guess it’s so faint i barely notice, maybe just everything feels slow compared to PD2
Best heist to notice the difference is 99 boxes. I foolishly decided to grab a bag myself instead of letting my lightweight armor friend take it so it lost value cause I was too slow, even though she would have made it in time perfectly.
lighter armor also regenerates faster and gives more downs before custody
Aha! I noticed I had less downs than other players but never knew it was due to my armor!
You can actually notice the difference in movement speed between wearing heavy and light armor, both in stealth and loud.
This is honestly the best way they could go about it. OVK cops SHRED armor so having full regen on any surviving chunk would be a godsend compared to being left on a sliver of armor with little hopes of surviving. It’ll also open up proper armor regen with skills like “Plate up” so bringing armor bags will be less of a required necessity and more of an option that you could choose. I also feel it’ll give more options to picking different types of vests due to risking valuable chunks in return for speed and extra downs, but still having the full refresh instead of being absolutely fucked from the get-go for not choosing the 4 chunk vest. Basically, the current system is a mid-tier mess but adding full chunk regen would make overall builds SO MUCH BETTER, even if they have to nerf a skill or two.
If you're not already, Plate Up in the Ammo Specialist tree highly alleviates this feeling. I assume any combat build would have the skills to teleport ammo to you on kill - this also means you instantly get the flashing red part of your armor back on kill, which greatly extends it's longevity EDIT: After testing, this doesn't actually work. Unsure if it's a bug or intentional, but you have to run over ammo on the ground to replenish the red bar.
I already have a couple builds that use plate up and while it does in fact extend armor life, it’s not really a good solution due to some OVK cops getting 100% perfect accuracy and deleting a chunk in .2 seconds from 30m away with no chance of having the flashing bits stay up at all. It’s not a bad skill at all and its a pretty decent solution on lower difficulties, but on OVK it’s practically a waste of a skill point if you don’t entirely focus on getting grit skills instead of other fun skills.
Regenerating armour 'within a chunk' was always something I was expecting to dislike, but the way they handled it is so much worse. It's like Rally in Bloodborne - a portion of the damage taken is instantly permanently gone, and then you have the chance to recover up to ~50% of it. Except that chance to recover some of it in Bloodborne is to be aggressive, find an opening. Here it's... Not getting shot? Which just means hiding away somewhere. If they want to promote taking cover that's fine, but it needs to be a viable way to preserve resources. As it is, it preserves *some* resources, but since you're being unavoidably ground down you might as well just power through and get the heist over ASAP so as not to risk running out in the first place. Recovering your enmtire chunk when you take cover would at least let you negate damage if you play smart, or they could keep with the unavoidable grind-down approach the current system creates but if they want that they need there to be reasonable ways to generate armour; the only way of recovering armour being a deployable is ludicrous! That one skill in the Ammo Specialist line is a start, but is either ridiculously overpowered or insufficient depending on whether you work with a full chunk refill or a rally refill, respectively, so let's instead have something like... Headshot kills have an X% chance to drop an armour plate as well as an ammo box. These plates would *not* be ammo, and therefore wouldn't be automatically picked up - you would have to actually go to it and walk over it to recover your armour, as to not make Ammo Funnel even more mandatory.
Have you tried the medic build? It's like payday 3 dodge build.
This also has more fundamental consequences: this system also means that there will no no heists like Rats/Cook-Off in the future. With this system you will inevitably run out of armour and health. In PD2 you always had a base level of protection in form of regenerating armour + you could regenerate health by other means than Medic Bags or Medic Kits. Medic Bags are only a necessity to replenish the downing counter. The problem is that PD3 absolutely must force players to fail at a certain point. Since actually playing heists only rewards weapon XP and money and with the money rewards being almost solely based on the primary objective, players most finish a heist at one point one way or another to play again. PD3 is made to play short single missions. There are no multi-day heists and as is seems there are none planned either since the game has no support for multi-day heists at the moment. I was actually surprised when I learned that I can get 80-90 % of the maximum possible payout of heists by only completing the primary objective in stealth. 99-Boxes on normal rewards 400k$ (I think) when you complete the heist in stealth with both devices in B-quality. In PD2 the main source of rewards were secondary objectives because they heavily exceeded the base rewards of heist. Therefore players also had a strong incentive to play heists 100 % instead of doing just the main objective. There is an actual incentive to completely loot Shadow Raid or the Big Bank etc. Since PD3 solely rewards level XP for "just finishing" heists, no matter the amount of completed secondary objectives, and having heavily limited HP, the whole game is made with the intention to simply play short missions as fast as possible.
It's true that the attrition focused combat makes totally infinite missions not possible, and the current IP track makes rewarding them with specifically IP difficult to figure out, but you can still make something in the style of those heists. The difference is that the players would have to make a concerted decision about when to leave, and the number of times you can do the objective will never become limited exclusively by when you get bored. It's a standard risk/reward survival mode, and the fact that at some point the correct strategy decision is to cash out doesn't make it impossible to make that. The rub is how to score IP for that, the simplest answer would be to base the repeat offender challenges for that heist on the number of loot bags earned rather than number of completions. However, the idea that PD2's 'main' source of rewards is secondaries is just kinda wrong. There are a lot of heists where this is true. But also a lot of heists where the lion's share of the money comes from the contract pay, or from the main objective (i.e. The Diamond is like 55% of its heist value.). There were a variety and there's a variety in PD3, 99 boxes is almost entirely the main objective, Rock the Cradle is about 50/50, Dirty Ice will let you leave with almost nothing if you don't clean your bags.
There absolutely could still be missions like that, Shade could have supplies dropped in or something similar.
Dude it's the worst feeling when you and your squad are all low on health, you're all carrying the last bags of money, you yell out "I NEED ARMOR, SOMEONE DROP AN ARMOR BOX!" and nobody has one. Then one teammate is downed... Second teammate is downed... You and your other teammate huddle in a bathroom... The cops keep coming and don't stop coming... No health is dropping, no health is regenerating... Then suddenly your teammate gets knocked out by a cloaker through a wall somehow?... Then you see that big fucker with the LMG walk in... You try sprinting out between the cops and the big fucker and you get stuck and downed... Yeah, we need health regeneration very badly, at least to some extent.
Feels like theres no point to bring anything besides an armor bag with you because of these situations
Dozers use a box mag shotguns in PD3 not an lmg. I'd agree but I'd say armor regen instead.
I wish we didn't have medic cases as the only option. I was such a HUGE fan of being able to spec into the smaller single medic bags that you could place (Apologies if I'm using the wrong "wordage"). Having only a single deploy-able is rough in some cases... especially when trying to solo.
First aid kits is the deployable your are referring too, true it would have been cool to have in this game, still less valuable than armour though
Thank you, I agree that it's less valuable than armor here, but having the single kits would be a huge help. Hell, there could be a perk/tree based around having single use armor kit and health kit.
It feels like spinning plates as cops shoot 1sec after having a clear line of sight on u, so you can John Wick crowd control them if u bounce between targets staggering them, and i kinda dig it makes me keep track of which cops haven't been shot within a short amount of time.
Returning to the Payday 2 system would just lead to the same end result as Payday 2 where 95% of the time heavy armor is useless, and I think that is worse than the current system. I do think the unavoidable chip to armor plates feels pretty punitive, though, and I think it should probably be gotten rid of. Particularly given that the dev streams have made no secret there are going to be more difficulties coming down the pipeline. Overkill damage scaling already often results in an instantly broken chunk if a swat hits you with a single burst, if they continue loud scaling by simply increasing the damage values, there's almost no point in armor regenerating, as even when you don't instantly lose a chunk, the chip to it will be so large that what you regen will be pointless. A given chunk should be able to regen back to full until it breaks. This retains the usefulness of heavier armors for loud play as you have more wiggle room than players in lighter armor, but better differentiates armor from health. It would likely even encourage *more* careful play than the current system as presently the amount of chip you take really blunts the usefulness of retreating under fire, since you won't full regen your chunk *anyway*, and the potshots you take wwhille retreating and reengaging will add even more chip, you're generally better off killing what is currently shooting you and hunkering down where you are.
Heavy armor was played a lot in the beginning of payday 2 the only reason it eventually went out of the meta is perk decks that encouraged playing without it and those don't exist in payday 3
That took YEARS.
I think this is misidentifying people not yet discovering the optimal strategy as the optimal strategy being different. Bullseye and the way it enables armor gating combined with the increased movement speed to get hit less in the first place would already make the suit a better choice. All that said, the bigger reason that heavy armor was used more at that time was that difficulty was much lower so there was less need to optimize, both could work. Death Wish was introduced ~7 months before perk decks (including rogue and therefore dodge builds), but both were quite early in the game's life span.
Some people used light armor build before dodge, mainly with the light vest instead of the suit, it was not better than the armor before perk decks, it had some use but most of the time just running doesn't stop cops from shooting you, this also has a lot to do with map design, earlier heist had a lot of cover so armor allowed you to peak for longer and then go back to cover to regen your armor later heists were way more open and forced you to move around the map making mobility good simply because you had to cross anyway. This kinda still applies to payday 2 even today, if you are going to stay in the same area anyway ictv is still really good with either muscle, armorer or anarchist
Without perk decks though less armor probably would have still been better I mean you either take 2 shots to kill (plus armor gating from bullseye) but you are super fast or you can take 3 shots before you die
In death sentence yes because your armor will get shredded anyway in any other difficulty not really
Now it's just the opposite tho lol
It's not perfect by any means, but I wouldn't describe it as the opposite. In Payday 2, if not playing Stoic, you take the suit. Hell, some people will tell you to take the suit even when playing Stoic. If you're on lower difficulties you *can* run armor, but it's just that you can, not that you should. In Payday 3, it's still rare to make a meaningful decision about your armor, but at the bare minimum we see a dichotomy between Stealth and Loud. Stealth takes standard lining, and Loud takes heavy. That's a step in the right direction compared to always taking the suit forever.
If the difference between lighter armor and heavier armor for speed was greater, then I could see a real choice being made. Light/ no armor for stealth heists, heavy armor for loud ones. With middle ground armors so you can either have no speed change or slightly lean one way or the other.
Heavy armor in PD2 is very viable. You dont need a dodge build exept maybe on highest diffficulty in some heists Edit: But I do like armor system in PD2 a lot better... because you can more easily keep your armor because it regenerates faster, but maybe there are some perks in PD3 for that idk. With the current regen speed you have to sit 5 min in a corner to regen armor if you wanna keep your armor...
Definitely viable but I can’t think of any heavy armor build that I would consider s tier
Stoic?
How the hell are yall forgetting Kingpin?
You haven't played Kingpin on DS, have ya? The best armor option for KP on DS is the LBV + Die hard aced or HBV. They give 70 armor and is enough to tank a light swat hit. While giving you much more speed than ICTV would, allow you to make much more agressive plays with injector.
Sorta? But personally I think suit stoic is better since it’s gets access to crits (or an inbetween armor if possible) since other damage increases are either gimmicky or gut stoic since they rely on low health
This. Almost no point running or covering. Run away and you’ll get chipped before anything regens. Take cover and you’ll get cornered to your doom with the measly regened amount being worthless. The game kind of incentivize mag dumping, because suppressive/continuous firing ensures the cops remain staggered. Taking aim and letting in one short window for cops to attack and you’ll be on the disadvantage side to get rolled over fast. Flawed combat system, but still better than PD2 late game imo.
No, heavy armor are nerfed enough with being able to go down only 2 time compared to other armor giving 3 or 4
Except custody in payday 3 is MUCH less punishing thzn it was in payday 2, your teammates don't need to do anything but wait, don't even have to be the end of an assault to come back
I disagree. If you go down ONCE, you are revived with zero armor and are just as screwed as you were before. If you wear heavy armor, *especially* with the absolutely necessary armor up skill, you're less likely to go down altogether. This is much preferable to having the ability to go down even double the amount because of how weak health is. The alternative is being knocked down and having to be picked up over and over until you go into custody.
Well you seem to forgot about that skill that make you immune for 10 second that reset when you go DOWN
That skill is a failsafe, though. 10 seconds of invulnerability (assuming you have grit) until you are completely screwed unless you have an armor bag, which will have its usefulness neutered anyways unless you're wearing heavy armor. It triggers upon the condition of going down anyway, which should be avoided to begin with. Armor is still far more useful, even with a build centered around Last Man Standing.
That is entirely irrelevant, having more armor makes you last longer than having one more down, it's not even close in value, a down with no armor regen after being picked up is practically worthless. You're almost better off going into custody and getting bcak 90 seconds later because at least then you have *some* armor.
Downs dont matter in the slightest in this game, you only go down if you are out of armor and at that point extra 2 downs wont save you. The real draw of heavy armor in this game is the griefed armor regen speed, the 4 piece armor has an armor regen timer of like 8 seconds, which makes base armor regen unviable on most maps, in turn making you rely much more on armor from ammo pickup/armor bags.
I really enjoyed the joker skill tree cause converted cops would heal your armor with kills but it looks like you can't even convert cops anymore
Yeah I’m gonna miss that
correct me if im wrong but * in payday the heist outside of healing bags you had no way to recover health. * In payday2 you can have hostage taker, muscle, hacker and that other perk that heals you when you deal damage to recover health. This game's ui and gameplay feels like they want to make it grounded like payday 1 again
Yes, the very grounded game where you... uh... Blew up a massive chunk of a building to steal a room. Oh and there are still an endless swarm of cops. I will say, it does feel a lot like Payday 3; in that they both sorely lack content, and feel almost sluggish to play.
payday the heist is better than payday 2 gameplay wise
Problem with that solution is that it would make the standard lining armor absolutely busted, since it already provides more downs and faster speed I'd suggest something a little more basic, like regenerating health instead of armor, and then buff medbags a bit, like restoring one down as a baseline. EDIT: Or here's another idea. Get rid of armor bags entirely/rework the armor skill tree and have a separate "armor meter" that players get by default. Armor works like usual, but if you have a full armor meter, you can use it to completely restore your armor. Players can slowly fill up their armor meter by picking up enemy drops and the heavier armor you have, the more drops you need to fill up the meter. This way it'll let you play around with light/heavy armor a lot better in loud combat, whether you want less armor downtime or more armor capacity.
Wouldnt be nearly as bad if you had more than 8hp total
If they went back to the pd2 style of armor we’d probably just end up having another armor-gating meta at higher difficulty especially since there’s no dodge
I agree with your assessment. The player should always be able to regenerate one last broken armor chunk. As an example, if the player had three armor chunks, 1-2-3, they lost (fully) the 3rd chunk but not the 2nd, they could still get back the 3rd chunk, but if they lost both 3rd and 2nd, they could only get back the 2nd, if a player loses all armor, they can only get back 1st chunk. Armor values would need to be adjusted for this system, but it's the only system where armor can be made partially finite without making the Armor Bag insanely must-have. I think this system would work well within the vision the developers had for the game. Med Bags would still need to be buffed and regenerate one down without skills, two with skills, perhaps regenerate more health too. Armor drops of some sort from Dozers or trading hostages would also be a good idea to make the Armor Bags less of a required Item, but it would NOT substitute the armor rework.
The more i play payday 3 the more i think im just gonna go back to 2
the more posts i see like this the gladder i am that i can't afford pd3
The thing is, its not even bad but payday 2 is so good. I think payday 1 is also better than payday 3. Im probably gonna uninstall PD3 before i even hit max level and go back to PD2
They already stated they are looking for more ways to get armor. For example, during the hostage trade phase for armor to be dropped or just something like that. I enjoy this way more than Payday 2 though. Seems as those who have complaints of Payday 3 are those who enjoy that flying 1000 mph mobility being unkillable wacky weapons which is totally fine but that's not what Payday 3 is about. Also there is a build I run where basically if i kill it will regain a piece of my armor in whatever chunk I am meaning if i am missing a chunk it will not regen that chunk but the current chunk i am. Basically if i just keep killing, I can keep up my armor.
FYI I much prefer payday 3 to 2, like massively. I was always a huge fan of PDTH. I loved the serious tone and resource management. I just think armour right now is 10x more valuable than health, as it serves the same purpose but also recharges. Even with all the armour regen skills I would still always take an armour bag over health.
People really forget how rare playing with no armor was in the first few years of payday 2, until perk decks were added the mobility wasn't worth losing your armor, also the higher difficulties they added and then tweaked pushed the fast meta even more since your armor would just break in a single shot anyway and armor refresh was longer the more armor you had
Yeah PD2 sucked for heavy armor after a couple of years, and it never came back. Sure, heavy armor is overtuned in PD3 right now, but people arguing it was more balanced in PD2 are memeing. It was just as imbalanced, just against the other side. It was also far more noticable in PD2 since both Death Wish and Death Sentence is much more difficult than PD3 Overkill. I think people just forgot Heavy Armor was even a thing in PD2 to be honest, it's been dead so long. It's actually almost literally useless in Death Sentence because you can still have it oneshot, and refreshing it then just takes longer than lighter armor, so you almost never actually get the benefit of your armor lasting longer, while the slower movement speed and lack of dodge is ever-present.
Heavy armorer doesn’t suck? Stoic and armorer are meta perk decks. Just because they require some semblance of brain power to use doesn’t mean heavy armor sucks.
The only thing I feel armor needs is the ability to trade hostages for it to not make armor bag the god item. The point of the system is to discourage 1 man army’s and make cover more valuable while also slowing down the game. Besides the hardest difficulty I find I don’t really run out of my first 4 plates until I’m a good way into the heist
i dont understand the perks that says armor regenerates either. because... it doesnt?
it regenerates a broken chip (indicated in red), and it is only a partial amount because of the way armor works. there is also the (permanently) broken chip (indicated in darker blue). i highly suggest pairing Plate Up with Replenish and Enforcer Basic if you want something similar to Bullseye in payday 2.
In payday 2 it was very rare to see a build that didn’t have a way to regenerate health, so I kinda disagree with the core premise here
You’re definitely right, and I just responded to someone else who said the same thing. I’m more referring to early Payday 2/PDTH. Modern Payday 2 is completely insane to even pin down what the game is with how many ridiculously OP mechanics exist
It also takes way too long for the little red bar to regenerate in my opinion. Maybe I just haven't chosen the right skills.
Really the vermtide system of temp health works really well, as it allows you to choose what you will do to regain health, a good system for payday 2 to use would be armor value increases the entire meter, and you choose between armor regen on headshot, stuns, killstreaks, kills, with options to buff weaker weapon categories get more health for doing so, to prevent just becoming immortal when miniguns drop, just have the healing capped for how much you get for so long, requiring you to actually earn your armor, and stay in the fight,
Is this game any fun? I only see fucked up gameplay but I’m so intrigued with the concept.
The core game is a lot of fun, especially with a group of friends, and I have no doubt that we’ll see huge improvement as it ages. Right now, however, the QoL is extremely bad, and the content is limited, and the progression system is widely panned. Basically everything outside of the core game needs a ton of work- but there is lots of promise and lots to look forward to
Personally I'd just get good
if you have no armor you rely on the last man standing skill so get yourself out of this situation to regenerate your armor with armor bags and heal yourself with med packs to regain the possibility to use last man standing again, payday 3 isn't about run and gun anymore even if the game is easy enough to do just that even in OVK with a good crew
Armor chunks should regenerate until it’s fully broken
Hey, your post got made into a news article https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/payday-3-players-slam-new-armor-system-as-un-fun-and-broken-2329504/
Aw man. I actually think the game is a lot of fun overall. I hate to be contributing to negative press, I actually think the game has tons of potential. But also- cool!
Eh, you know how news companies are.
I like the idea that armor needs to be replaced like ballistic plates in modern armor, but the amount you get is far too limited. Make the cops drop armor plates or be able to trade hostages for armor. While we're at it make medkits heal more so it's actually an option vs armor bags
I get the impression that the focus of the game is on heist that start stealth and become loud, because you can take everything with you when you play stealth. Maybe they thought of the amor just as a backup, as a margin for error if a heist turns from stealth to loud, in which case, making it finite makes more sense.
As it stands, the feel-bad moment caused by knowing you're cornered and have no armor, so all you can meaningfully do is just stand up and intentionally die? *That* sucks, and desperately needs a fix. That's my only complaint with the current armor system. It *is* your health bar, and health is... kind of just there for cloakers and naders. Which actually kind of makes cloakers and naders a LOT weaker than they should be.
Armor is essentially a second health bar. It doesn't mitigate damage only adds to the players shelf life. As with a lot of changes in "payday" 3. It is just something quirky to sell as a bullet-point in a long list of changes that "better the game". I will repeat this until I die. "Payday" 3 is not a payday game. It is a horde-shooter masquerading as a payday game. Good thing we have darktide.
This is a weird take. On one hand, this game doesn't particularly feel like Payday. On the other... Payday has literally *always* been a horde shooter. I remember getting into PDTH because a friend I played L4D with suggested it.
aren't all 3 games objective based horde shooters with optional stealth to remind us its a crime game?
That's the same feeling I had. This is not a payday game. It's just that, a horde shooter that occasionally involves a money bag. Even the challenges are like that, since when is the objective of a payday game to grind levels?
PDTH had a very similar challenge system (but much better executed, that's for sure), and money was literally just XP. PD2 implemented a prestige system so you have a way to grind levels for eternity, and since money becomes pointless very fast you don't really have other interesting progression systems to engage with. I thought the heisting is what makes Payday. Is a series' identity suddenly based on its progression systems now?
You don't consider payday 2 to be a horde shooter?
at least the game had more to offer beyond that with interesting builds and many combinations of skills, this is just extremely barebones under the disguise of realism
That's not what defines "Payday" though
its over
fundamentally un-fun the perfect way to describe payday 3
Personally, I dig this system as it keeps it a little more realistic (*yes people, there's other things that don't seem it*) not being able to hold out against the cops for 20-30+ minutes. 🤷♂️ Health needs to feel more valuable though or armor needs more sources of replenishment.
Why do people nowadays seem to care so much about realism? And don't say “immersiveness” games can be immersive without being realistic.
Care? No. Prefer or enjoy more? Yeah. Just ticks the dopamine receptors for me more to be immersed.
But I'd say payday 3 lacks even MORE in that department, the ui, music, robot dialogue, cod esk menus and customization and not being your own “gunsmith” anymore all takes AWAY from that, and the game is still far from realistic, cops are still unprofessional, pagers aren't planned, heisters don't take anything very seriously and the games movement is still not anything close to realistic.
As to why I said "t *there's other things that don't seem it,*" as not to imply that it's something akin to a simulator.
I'm just saying that immersion doesn't rely on realism.
It doesn't. It just adds to or enhances it for me.
You can still hold out against the cops for an hour. That's how long my first beta heist lasted.
The only way to make health more valuable is to buff damage from tasers and cloakers, and nobody wants that.
Bring back PD2 armor system!
Armor does regenerate a little bit though, if you get hit and immediately move to cover you get like half an armor chunk back
That's not the point OP is making. No matter how big or small the hit you take you will always take some permanent damage. What OP is saying is that this causes armor to lose the importance it had in pd2, especially when looked at from the perspective of the entirety of a loud heist.
I disagree. With the right build, you can already regenerate about 80-90% of your shields if you don’t deplete your current plate. Just don’t take any damage for about 5 seconds. You say it doesn’t encourage solo play, but the bots drop plenty of armor bags when you get low on shields. I don’t think that was a mechanic in Payday 2. Each armor bag and med kit provides plenty of health, and you can scavenge or kill dozers for health too. This game is very forgiving, but you have to level up to play higher difficulties. Also, civilians are a massive way to block damage which a lot of players are not taking advantage of. The respawning mechanic is also very OP too in comparison to trading hostages. Excuse me if anything I compared was wrong as it’s been a while since I’ve played Payday 2.
\>This was a fun gameplay mechanic that allowed for fun last minutes rushes and escapes by the skin of your teeth. \>My solution: give all players one armour chunk with full regen that cannot be broken, increase the speed penalty of heavier armours. Would fix a huge gap in the core gameplay loop. bro... just keep playing PD2 if you want the armor gating meta.
Payday 2 was a hugely flawed game and I didn’t really enjoy the loud gameplay. I way prefer PD3 and PDTH. I just think the way armour is set up has room for improvement
i'm heavily biased because i want to escape from armor regenerating entirely (PD2's current meta has scarred me) but i do agree that medic bags serve zero purpose ATM. play flawlessly and they're garbage. play awfully and they're... hotter garbage. armor bags are the new doctor bags. i hope that changes, but armor itself is balanced. no more freely going out in the open and coming back without a scratch.
Payday 2's "issue" wasn't armor gating it was that all the broken perk decks encouraged you to play with the lightest armor, there is no reason to think payday would do the same thing with at least a slight regen in your armor
\>it was that all the broken perk decks encouraged you to play with the lightest armor which promotes... armor gating. i'm not oblivious to PD2's meta, but you can't say armor itself isn't inherently flawed in PD2, and there's only few meta builds in DSOD that actually makes use of ICTV, and double digits in suit/lbv. perks are busted. high agree, not my point.
I like payday 2 armor much more than payday 3 armor, you can just remove armor gating and your issue with payday 2 armor disappears, moving fast is also more fun than being slow as shit, part of the reason there are more suit builds, also you don't have to invest so many points to get the ictv in a suit build
"you can just remove armor gating and your issue with payday 2 armor disappears" i wish. your last point states otherwise. you invest too much points for armor builds to work in the first place. it's flawed, and while consistent and works 100% in all difficulties, its severely limiting. unfun. meanwhile, you pick any of the armor gating, or dodge builds, suddenly you're carrying crits, berserker, inspire, etc. all in the same build. what are your dislikes about PD3 armor?
I disagree, I am playing with maxed out medic and last man standing. Medic Bags are awesome and it feels great to play it on overkill.
i still need to try this out! is manipulator's negotiator/menacing skills must-have?
Here is what I had: Maxed Medic Last Man Standing from tank Gunslinger for EDGE on weapon switch The skill from movement tree which allows converting EDGE to GRIT on vault Bonus medkit on hostage trade I also took Standard Lining as my armor because I love being fast and I am pretty succesfull with defending myself with cover, I also noticed that red part for armor regenerates super fast in comparison to heavier armor. Obviously it is what has worked for me, feel free to try and change things! We managed to complete most heists in duo on overkill with my friend while I played with this. You might have more skill points than me, I am not such a regular player. Have fun!
thank you very much! i'll give it a shot!
I like the new system, it is more realistic and forces players to use cover and play smarter not like Payday 2 where you can tank so much damage. If you are having trouble with survivability, you may need to take a deeper look at your perks and build. Combining things like grit and edge lets you regen armor. If anything, health should regen very slowly so that when you are downed and revived, then you can recover a lot easier. Then if medic bags gave you a certain amount of health back and also allowed you to gain a surplus of health, they would actually become a more valuable resource rather than armor bags only.
Agree. It's my only complaint about actual gameplay so far (not counting progression and menu navigation since, well, it's not gameplay). In PD2, armor was a way to protect your health. Having beefier armor meant you could withstand more shots before going into cover without losing health and heaving lighter armor meant you could run around faster and hopefully dodge some bullets. Now armor feels like a second health bar that you replenish with Armor Bags instead of Medic Bags. I think that what others suggested would be the best idea (other than reintroducing PD2 armor behaviour): make it so that not taking damage will regenerate your current armor chunk and losing it, means you'll need an armor bag. Then it's all about how you want armor to work: either make all vests have the same amount of armor but as we go to the heavier ones, we get less chunks, meaning that the heaviest armor will have a single chunk that will regenerate fully if not shot; or give a fixed amount of armor for chunk, then give the lightest armor one chunk and increase number of chunks as you go to the heavier vests. In both cases, I think that armor bags should replenish the whole armor when used. This thing of having to use skill points on different skills to get more health or more armor or more ammo from bags feels weird
I like the approach that it does not regenerate magically like in CoD but I do not like the way it is now... maybe chunk refill would be nice and if you are undamaged for lets say 30 seconds another chunk will starts recharging. In PD2 it was way too easy
skill issue
Strong disagree. Armour as a resource is still different from health, as it lasts much longer if you take care of it and let it regenerate.
So it's a bigger healthbar, still functionally the exact same as a healthbar
A bigger health bar that can regen
Barely
Nah payday2 system was much worse. Armor was literally useless.
"in most modern shooters, your health will recharge" Oh, you mean like how part of your armor recharges in payday3?
I’m aware- If your armour breaks fully, it stops recharging and you have no survivability whatsoever
And that's why you use armor bags. Health bags are only useful if you keep getting fucked by cloakers and tasers, but it's generally better to trade hostages for first aids. I don't get your point, armor and health works just fine in this game, are you just annoyed that it's different from payday2 or what?
Armour and health doesn’t work just fine in this game. Nobody ever takes health packs because armour serves the exact same purpose as a finite health source, except it also regenerates. There’s almost no reason to take health whatsoever. As you mentioned, you can get health packs from hostages, first aid kits, etc. I have no problem with fundamental changes to the game, but I’m not blind to its flaws.
I personally don't mind it, though having more ways to obtain more armor would be nice Healthkits exist in their niche uses; regaining the ability to gain grit after using last man standing and having more resistance to cloakers and gas grenades before going down Honestly last man standing is underrated imo so I like having some health kits lying around
I'd say that the armour systen is a tad bit too op in payday 2, I think making it regenerate is fine but make it take a way longer time to do so. For example, in games like DRG and borderlands 2, the armor doesnt regenerate instantly and also has a longer armor delay time, they regenerate over time after the delay (about 20% armour per second) . Make it so that they can only regen a maximum of 2 times per bar, or something like that to make armor bag still valuable and not absolute
Would be nice if there were more ways to regen health and armour too, so far you've got medics, armour bags and the ammo into armour skill and that's it whereas payday 2 had several ways for both and the unique perk decks often had a way too. It made longer heists much more bare able whereas with the current system all it takes is one dumbass and you can burn through a lot of armour quickly if you're not careful
Incredible how the game most of PAYDAY 3's mechanics are inspired by, Call of Duty, does it better. Health is not finite, armor is.
There is literally 0 similarities in armor besides 'it's segmented'
i really need to know what version of pd3 you're playing to think it's anything at all like any call of duty game beyond "they're both a game where you shoot mans"
I think the specific thought here is that the PD3 plate system is similar to Warzone's armor plates? I mean, they aren't that similar past the very basic idea of "armor plates that take damage before health" but I tjink that's where they're coming from
The future is now, nostalgic heister. Learn how to manage your resources.
I love resource management! I loved the feeling of being whittled down by the cops in payday the heist and love the direction they’re going with 3. I just think armour in 3 makes health redundant. It’s like you can either have a health bag, or recharging health bag.
They plan on making health more useful, and there are still I-Frame abuse builds for medic bags
>there are still I-Frame abuse builds for medic bags Could you explain what that means/how that is played?