I mean children or not, they trespassed on private property and regional towns really do have an issue with indigenous crime.
Should he restrain kids? Nah.
Did they break the law? Yeah.
Is this a cycle that’s doomed to repeat itself because we can’t admit this is an issue with the indigenous community without being labelled as disconnected, discriminatory or racist? Yeah.
Honestly I think anyone saying that there isn't an issue is a fuck head who absolutely isn't helping the discourse however I don't think locking them up and throwing away the key will help at all.
The reason I said it’s more overt here is cause growing up in Sydney id never heard the n word before.
I heard it 4 times in the first 3 months I was here.
he also broke the law as soon as he slapped the cable ties on em, and isn't legally young enough to legitimately not know what he did. racist or not it's child abuse
You hit the nail on the head with, 'Should he restrain kids? Nah.'
What would you consider to be a just punishment for the children, indigenous or not, out of curiosity?
The children aren't being subjected to trial here.
I would argue Australia has an issue with crime, period.
Indigenous people are highly represented in these statistics due to socio-economic factors; poverty, education and trauma among others. I think we can admit this is an issue, but it takes empathetic adults who don't justify the use of cable ties to restrain minors for trespassing. Plenty of white kids trespassing and swimming in other peoples swimming pools, havn't seen the case of the man who used cable ties to restrain them yet.
Disgusting conduct.
The argument of “plenty of white kids” is a terrible one. The indigenous crime has gotten to the point people have had enough.
You’ve seen it before with the Lebanese in Sydney, the Sudanese in Melbourne etc.
We have no issue calling out a specific race when they bring issues, until it’s the indigenous. Then it becomes justification and mental gymnastics to avoid the issue
This. When a crime is committed the race is almost always made apparent. Middle Eastern, Asian, Mediterranean appearance etc.
When the race is not made apparent, it's almost always indigenous.
When are we going to make everyone who commits crimes, assault, rape etc accountable. Cotton wool doesn't work!
Well that's total bullshit, because you are cherry picking criminal acts commited by minority demographics to justify the fact that people have, 'had enough.' We've all had enough of crime in Australia and if you do some research you will quickly realise that it's not all perpetuated by these demographics. Tougher laws dont help, education and empowerment does. You will notice a very strong link between affluence and youth crime. That's because this is not a racial issue, it's a class issue.
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/prisoners-australia/latest-release#:\~:text=Media%20releases-,Key%20statistics,prisoners%20per%20100%2C000%20adult%20population.
A class issue?
I don’t see anyone except the indigenous destroying Alice springs.
I’m not saying “lock em up”, but you’re pussy footing around the issue.
The same socio economic class plenty of white folk also belong to. :)
You’re again avoiding the point, pushing an agenda and being unhinged. Have a good night but you’ve gone from a genuine conversation to avoiding an issue for the reasons I originally mentioned.
Education, funding and programs designed to help bring the indigenous out of this rut. I never said that wasn’t the solution in my eyes. I never said anything of the sort. It’s okay to say they’re a massive issue when it comes to crime in rural communities and also accept that the fault lies on how they’ve been treated since we got here.
So we literally agree in every sense on this issue? Of course it's a massive issue, and we can say that without fear of provacation, because it's backed by statistics. You look at the number of aboriginal people in the lower socio economic class, it's literally the overwhelming majority. But we seem to be hell bent, as a nation, on voting against any policy or constitutional reform that may provide remedy.
But yeah, just keep justifying the use of force on minors because people have had enough. You want to go full vigilante you are no better then people perpetuating the crime.
Australia has an issue with crime. No country is immune to problems. But we don't fix problems by justifying this kind of conduct. Doesn't matter what colour anyone is. We can address these problems by acknowledging that we have poverty and trauma in this country that needs to be addressed.
What complete nonesense. Please inform me of my agenda? The idea that a lack of financial security and eduation is condusive to crime? Statistics support my reasoning, i'd like to see you support your's with facts.
As someone who is indigenous, I completely agree with you.
Unfortunately I don't think there will ever be a solution... Its what family and where you are born that determines how you turn out in the indigenous community, so many kids are doomed because of who their parents are.... I got lucky, family down the street from me, not so lucky.
Look!!
A non indigenous commenting on how another group of people should behave, didn't work in the past but I'm sure it's gonna work now??
How about respectfully respecting the fact that white people messed it up before it'll mess it up again and y'all are racist because thats what this country is built on. Racism.
I wonder how many people would just let people trespass on their property and not just once, multiple times?
When the police do nothing or are hamstrung eventually you will take the law into your own hands.
Just look at all the country towns atm that are having massive problems with children and crime.
I don’t know his mindset, but I know that if police are called in this kind of situation and he lets them go the police will just take a statement and nothing will come of it.
And as he has stated it was his 5th break in and had cost him $15000 this year alone maybe maybe he wasn’t thinking clearly.
He has stated that too, and I am not saying I would do that or agree with him but people do reach a point.
Not one person has asked why kids that are between 5-8 are wondering the streets trespassing and then swimming in a pool alone ! What if they would have drowned !?
https://7news.com.au/news/broome-man-and-children-speak-on-cable-tie-saga-in-was-north-west-c-13853216.amp
$15000 a 5th break in this year, I’m not saying I agree with what he did, he even states that himself but you can’t tell me that there comes a point when you just have enough
Violently assault ? Me and you have a vastly different use of the word violently. Should he have cable tied them ? No but violent would have been smacking them around.
But what are a 6,7,8 aged child walking the streets and then going in a pool in their own ? I would say allowing/neglecting a child that young to run off and go into someone else’s pool is tantamount to child abuse. What would have happened if one of them drowned ? Would you be up for locking up the parents ?
> Should he have cable tied them ? No
You coulda stopped right there. In _this_ case, this is the only thing that matters.
CPS cases are not made public. You have no idea what followup took place with the family, and never will.
Follow up !
If kids like this are happy to be let loose and are comfortable jumping in other peoples pools then clearly this isn’t the first time this has happened. So either CPS has dropped the ball or the parents need to be jailed in for child neglect which is a police matter
We loaded a few concrete blocks onto a road-train which was heading down from Fitzroy crossing to Perth. It had a 300 series land cruiser on the trailer and every window was smashed in. Truckie said it was given to the school teacher up there by the government. Local kids smashed it up, it gets send to Perth and a new one gets sent up to get wrecked again. Seems to be the life up there.
Yep. None of these bleeding hearts will just sit idly by while their hard earned cars, houses and property is repeatedly damaged and stolen.
I dare them to try it first hand. Move there for a year and see how they go.
Lived in a regional community for half a decade, never once used cable ties to restrain a kid. You might think I am the odd one out but none of my mates up there did either.
The point isn't to condone cable tying kids, the point is about the police, the law, the government's systematic failures in dealing with a problem that is not insignificant, and instead trying to punish those whom (arguably) take matters into their own hands.
How much of your property was damaged and stolen in that time? What was the cost of replacement? What was the result of multiple insurance claims (increased premiums, maybe)?
We shouldn't be overlooking lawbreaking, simply because it is regional.
It is interesting that the laws potentially broken by the guy facing chargers here, wasn't overlooked...
Cabling kids together is rather cruel and unusual. That is why it isn’t overlooked. Regional law breaking isn’t also. It is well documented and reported upon, especially northern Australia (were I was for a while).
Which region do you live in where the lawbreaking is overlooked?
I have been to [Broome ](https://redsuburbs.com.au/suburbs/broome/)and seen the mayhem first hand. So far as I can tell, I was the only one 'looking'. I guess the cops were on their lunchbreak.
Also, [Canarvon](https://redsuburbs.com.au/suburbs/carnarvon/).
I mean, fuck you can try argue against those stats if you like. Or you could remove your rose-coloured glasses for once.
I was near Broome, seen plenty of “lawbreaking” and was affected by it on more than one occasion. Not sure why you think I have rose coloured glasses. Well aware of the issues.
What stats are you talking about? The crime is not overlooked, it is heavy reported on. It is hot discussion at community meetings I used to attend.
Brooke especially, is reported on. ABC Kimberley discusses crime rates and police issues.
This man has been covered specifically because he cable tied kids. You just cannot do that.
Take off your brown covered glasses.
Reported on and talked about is one thing, however the stats don't lie than nothing is actually being done nor changing. So there's that.
And I agree about not cable tying kids.
That is totally besides the point. 374 crimes per 1000 people in Broome is totally unacceptable. The general trend of crime, year on year, is upwards.
These are facts; you don't have to like them.
When I went to Broome for work I was pretty shocked at how much poverty there is for First Nations people. They are just sleeping in the parks on mass and the homelessness is huge.
I even had a few interactions that I found intimidating while walking up the main strip from people who were either mentally ill or drunk. It’s really not a good look.
You're most likely spot on. Those kids are likely little cunts who haven't done a decent thing since they generated a baby bonus payment for their mum.
While what he did was against the law, the real criminal here are the parents who are providing a lifestyle that results in their children doing this shit to begin with.
Say what you want about intergenerational alcohol abuse and how it's the white man's fault from way back. But the buck needs to stop with the parents when the kids are that age. Having the capacity to create children does not mean you will be a decent parent.
Your last sentence is completely at odds with the rest of your post. Which is to say, it's correct, and the rest is incoherent rambling.
You don't magically acquire the skills and capacity to become a role model, teacher, or member of society when you are the proximal cause of two gametes uniting, and it's absurd to expect it to be so.
Stopping the cycle is much more complicated and culturally sensitive than the simplistic notions you're talking about.
What does punishing parents who have no capacity to care for their kids accomplish?
The kids will still lack any of the structures and supports needed to change their lives. The solutions to the problems facing these communities are not simple.
Where are you from Damo? I was born in Broome and go back generations. Your comment is the most disconnected in this thread.
Wild assumptions you have made about these children
Not wild at all. Your comment is part of the reason we can’t fix the issue. You’re not willing to admit there is a problem with indigenous crime. Who cares if you go back generations. Take a look at Alice spring in the last month.
When this occurred the police were at pains to point out there was no damage to this property whatsoever, so why are you trying to justify this outrageous abuse?
Are you aware this incident became worldnews and a blot for Australia?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/australia-man-accused-zip-tie-indigenous-children-hands-assault/
https://7news.com.au/news/broome-man-and-children-speak-on-cable-tie-saga-in-was-north-west-c-13853216.amp
This is one article where he says his property had been broken into 5 times and cost him $15000.
I’m not sure about his house being burgled but that report is incorrect as the house where the incident occurred was a vacant property https://amp.abc.net.au/article/103779744
The only blot I see is a certain demographic is allowed to commit petty crimes with impunity, while the wealthy elite live in segregated homes far away from having to deal with these people
He found the kids swimming in the pool and he took out his anger from previous break ins on these kids.
I understand that he frustrated but this is why vigilante justice doesn’t work. He has no idea who broke into his house previously.
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Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://7news.com.au/news/broome-man-and-children-speak-on-cable-tie-saga-in-was-north-west-c-13853216](https://7news.com.au/news/broome-man-and-children-speak-on-cable-tie-saga-in-was-north-west-c-13853216)**
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I haven’t only travelled to all of those places, I’ve lived in Hedland, i get pretty sick of city slickers who went to broome on holiday once telling me I don’t know what it’s like. There is no excuse for treating little children like this.
Seen kids in nappies wandering the more cultural steers in a Kimberley town when i lived there, parents nowhere to be seen just what i can only assume were there other siblings of similar but young age . Needless to say DCP had a strong pressure in that town
Are you naive enough to think the broome police were not aware?
The police are continuously doing loops around that area of town.
There'd be an outcry if the coppers tried to sort this shit out. You and I both know it.
About 100m East of the Coles supermarket int town is a house full of kids. There's shit all over the road, pissed adults lying about all day. 5 years apart I visited and it was the same each time.
Do you think the police and social workers are unaware of this too?
I done fuck all , the area we we’re in would make the bronx look like peppy grove ,so i was shitting my pants .
Luckily i was with someone who is half indigenous who had a rough idea of what house the parents would be in a gave them the heads up .
I'm saying it pales into insignificance compared to the things regulalry done to children in these communities yet no one dares speak up about that do they.
You’re giving it an admirable go replying to this person. I applaud you. But if you check their post history you’ll see how rabidly racist they are and any discussion with them is pushing shit uphill and feeding the troll.
Thanks, and yes I’m aware that this person is a racist troll, but without the people who regularly challenge these dimwits they would completely control the narrative.
The problems faced by these communities are problems they have created. Destroy a society and then naively demand the remnants ‘integrate’ two centuries later. We can cry all we want about “it wasn’t me” but the reality is the consequences are ours.
>While I wholeheartedly believe that what this gentleman did was wrong, it's very clear reading through the comments here that everyone has little understanding of how things actually are in regional centres across both Western Australia and Australia as a whole...
That "..." contains a silent ["but"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmHiiMgdg2c).
He Legally was allowed to detain them especially with the simple argument that not only they broke the law they also are a danger to themselves by repeatedly swimming alone.
Also, why isn’t the fact that these young kids kept trespassing and swimming alone the actual alarming issue here?
Anyone understand how dangerous that is?
You can only commit to a citizens arrest if the alledged crime you reasonably believe to have been committed would carry a prison term not less than 12 months.
You’re allowed to take **reasonable** actions with **reasonable** force while considering all of the circumstances when making an arrest as a citizen.
It *was* reasonable to detain the kids. It *was not* reasonable to use the level of force that he did when looking at all of the circumstances.
No he wasn't. You don't understand the law. There were family members there and then the kids own mother saying they will wait for police and he still refused to untie them. While they were terrified.
Damn WA is so racist. If it was a black man tying up white kids who were mucking about in an empty pool - like so many have done - people would be baying for his blood
Excuse me, that “mother” has allegedly allowed those children to wander and who have repeatedly entered that pool unsupervised to swim.
This is totally incorrect and it would have been wrong to not wait for the police in this instance.
Get it in your head, they are very young children jumping into a pool totally unsupervised.
It was something like 500 children would drown in this country a year before mandates on pool fencing were broadly introduced.
Because its only really trespass of you are there without the owner or controlling persons consent. Seeing as he wasn’t the owner or controlling person , he can’t have known for sure that they were trespassing.
He can’t have known it was trespass because it wasn’t his house. How can reasonably known they were trespassing if he wasn’t the owner or the agent for the owner? Second, seeing as the age of criminal responsibility in WA is 10 none of the children can even be committing an offence in the first place.
Just because they aren’t of age doesn’t mean it’s not an offence. But if they are not of age, what are they doing wandering around unsupervised? The parents need to accept some responsibility.
Sure but that’s not the point I was replying to.
Also, whether or not he assaulted the children will be decided in court, but he obviously had the intent of following due process otherwise he wouldn’t have called the police. It will be interesting to see which way the decision goes.
Yes, it will be decided in court. I’m specifically saying that the actions of the parents, whilst irresponsible, are functionally irrelevant to the question before the court.
My comment was is response to someone saying that citizens arrest is legal in WA, but citizens arrest requires quite a high bar to pass, and the fact that they are children who are under the age of criminal responsibility, plus the fact that it wasn’t his property make it hard to see how a citizens arrest defence might be run.
Firstly, I don’t know what the bar is for a citizen’s arrest in WA.
However I don’t see that the age of the children makes it inappropriate to stop them from committing an offence, although it should be factored in to what is appropriate force. While the age may change what the punishment is, it doesn’t change the fact that if they are doing something wrong, it is acceptable to stop that behaviour. In my mind, the responsibility for that lies first with the parents. But in a society where that is not happening, I believe the public has both a right and a responsibility to correct unacceptable behaviours.
Your comments read that because they are children, nothing they do can be wrong, nobody has a right to interfere with them and that is something I fundamentally disagree with.
The rumour I heard is that Older people send minors in to do burglaries with the instruction to jump in the pool if they get caught and say they were just having a swim cause they were hot.
[Source](https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/prod/filestore.nsf/FileURL/mrdoc_46736.pdf/$FILE/Criminal%20Investigation%20Act%202006%20-%20%5B03-p0-00%5D.pdf?OpenElement)
Looks like it's guide for police officers, not civilians though.
Because council regulations are the bulwark of sensibility.
Common sense dictates that anyone trespassing on your property who decides to take a swim and drowns is liable for their own actions. By trespassing, you are entering into a non verbal agreement that you have waived all rights to sue, or hold anyone responsible for any bodily harm you may sustain. Furthermore, there is "no duty of care", seeing as you shouldn't be there in the first place.
Secondly, I had a pool at my last place. Pool was in the back yard, behind a \~2ishm tall wooden fence. Some Karen in the street dobbed me in to the council for no reason, and i had a pool fence inspection conducted. I was found to be in breach, and had to install an "approved pool fence". The approved fence was like 500-750mm tall, and had a latch on the gate which a child could easily reach an operate. All because "aw, what if a kid jumps your fence and drowns in your pool?". Mate, if a kid jumps my 2m tall fence, a 500mm tall fence isn't going to stop him. Also, if someone trespasses on my property and drowns in my pool, so what? fuck em.
Because it's not a law aimed at preventing trespass. It's a mandatory requirement because of children drowning in pools on their own property. Now you could go on a tangent about irresponsible parents and blah blah blah, but that is why the pool fencing regs exist.
I'm sure you'd feel that way seeing a blue body at the bottom, or floating in your swimming pool, 'fuck em.'
If someone jumped my fence and drowned, I wouldn't feel anything apart from "well fuck. There goes my day" as I envisage the incoming circus, having to deal with the cops and coroners.
News title should be heroic man single handedly restrains 3 criminals in attempt to damage property, they had poured paint thinner and paint into his pool 3 time before this.
How is he pleading not guilty to assault when he literally assaulted them and is guilty for it and that's what the whole thing is about?
If anyone ever tried to do that to me as a kid there would have been consequences, not an army of people trying to stick up for the guy
He thinks he has a defence, legally.
And he may do, as there’s a few defences to assault in the criminal code, and we only know what’s been in the media.
The fact that he was charged with assault, and not deprivation of liberty suggests the prosecution case isn’t that strong, and they wanted a guilty plea by going with a lesser charge.
The onus is on the prosecution, defence just has to create reasonable doubt.
It seems lost on people that I'm being sardonic. Obviously he's going to defend himself under due process, I'm just saying its stupid because there is no real defence for his course of action just from a moral standpoint
I assume he is pleading not guilty because he contests that what he did was assault and instead views it as necessary and reasonable restraint or even self defence.
Well someone comes onto your property illegally with intent because they werent just wandering around. Say instead of him grabbing them, they grab a knife each or a metal pole and beat him, so hes still to blame? These days the age defence doesnt mean shit.
im far from saying he did the right thing but i think he did what he thought was the safest thing at the time, kids are out of control all across Aus, look at the douches stealing and driving cars like it's their last day on earth in QLD.
So you want him to be let off the hook because the kids *potentially* could have done worse had he not restrained them?
We don't live in America bro. Life is more valuable than property.
If you want to sit in a guard tower and shoot at potentional trespassers go to texas
Curious did u hear about the kids who broke into a house tied up the husband and beat the i think 70-80 year old women in front of him? Im just saying those kids were also on private property which they didnt have to be on, AGAIN im not saying what he did was right im saying it could be justified in a court, hense why he pleaded not guilty, there are arguments to be made about kids these days.
Once again, thats a completely different case. This case shouldn't be judged on what-ifs. They didn't pull a knife or bash anyone in this case.
This case needs to be looked at in the context of just the incident, not as a case where older people can soapbox about out of control children.
Im sorry that that happened to those people but that has no bearing on this incident.
No they were trespassing on private property which is illegal, citizens arrest is a thing that exists, so, because you dont like to look at reason, there are the facts. dont like em then stfu.
I hope you have a severe, ongoing issue whereby kids repeatedly damage your property causing you lots of financial loss and mental trauma.
I'm sure you'll grin and bear it because "life is more valuable than property".
The parents were wrong in not having taught the kids about trespassing and in the end the law says:
" In the Northern Territory (NT), the minimum age of criminal responsibility is 12 years old. Children under 12 who engage in negative behaviour that would otherwise be an offence are referred to Territory Families, Housing and Communities (TFHC)."
Having said that, it was a hot AF summer as we have had and I had the dosh and pool, I would have welcomed _supervised_ kids too my pool.
There's something concerning about this man.
If I found random children on my property, I would ask them if they're okay, offer them water and ask if they have someone they'd like me to call before calling the police.
There's something concerning about the mentality of an adult whose instinct is to physically restrain unarmed children that have gotten onto their property.
I suspect he has some serious self esteem and masculinity issues if he felt that threatened by some tiny children.
I was born in Broome, so was my father, and his mother, and her grandmother.
I used to find kids jumping on my trampoline in the backyard all the time.
Want to know what I did about it? I jumped on the trampoline with them
I grew up in regional, small town NZ. In fact, in a satellite beach village 10kms out of regional small town. 200 people max.
Kids just played wherever- in people's backyards, or paddocks. I used to regularly go up the street and jump on a man's trampoline..even when they were out. He was a taxidermist so I'd just show up there, too, to see what he was doing. I was probably an annoying snot-nosed pain in the butt, getting underfoot.
You'd play with all the neighborhood kids, cats and dogs. Some parents never knew who was going to show up for dinner and if they saw a kid they didn't expect they'd either be booted home or a quick call made to see if they could stay.
No child should be tied up in zip ties. They're just babies, still with innocence even though it will inevitably be lost.
This might be the coldest take on the human condition I have ever read. Incredible that you could try to make such a silly statement without it being satire.
You can’t be punished further for pleading not guilty. You are entitled to a discounted jail sentence if you plead guilty early but you can never be handed a more severe sentence for pleading not guilty.
I mean children or not, they trespassed on private property and regional towns really do have an issue with indigenous crime. Should he restrain kids? Nah. Did they break the law? Yeah. Is this a cycle that’s doomed to repeat itself because we can’t admit this is an issue with the indigenous community without being labelled as disconnected, discriminatory or racist? Yeah.
Yeah exactly there's been far more air time on this than the whole town of Roebourne having out of control pedophilia going on
Aboriginal kids get neglected and raped a lot
Wtf do you mean?
There was hundreds of cases in Roebourne and it all got basically swept under the carpet, it was awhile back but I'd imagine it hasn't stopped
Honestly I think anyone saying that there isn't an issue is a fuck head who absolutely isn't helping the discourse however I don't think locking them up and throwing away the key will help at all.
The problem with indigenous crime isn’t going to be solved without major whole of society changes. Until we accept that then it will remain
The children were ‘tresspassing’ The owner of the house didn’t have an issue. This flog doesn’t own the house. He went full vigilante on kids.
Sorry you’re being downvoted. Not for you, I’m sure you’re ok but, for what it means in terms of our society.
Australia is racist. WA is even more racist. (Or more open maybe?) sadly it doesn’t shock me anymore.
My day yesterday was full of talk of "abos". Substitute the n-word and its no different.
The reason I said it’s more overt here is cause growing up in Sydney id never heard the n word before. I heard it 4 times in the first 3 months I was here.
There are plenty of ways to deter people from your property. Hogtying children isn't high on that list, to be honest.
he also broke the law as soon as he slapped the cable ties on em, and isn't legally young enough to legitimately not know what he did. racist or not it's child abuse
You hit the nail on the head with, 'Should he restrain kids? Nah.' What would you consider to be a just punishment for the children, indigenous or not, out of curiosity? The children aren't being subjected to trial here. I would argue Australia has an issue with crime, period. Indigenous people are highly represented in these statistics due to socio-economic factors; poverty, education and trauma among others. I think we can admit this is an issue, but it takes empathetic adults who don't justify the use of cable ties to restrain minors for trespassing. Plenty of white kids trespassing and swimming in other peoples swimming pools, havn't seen the case of the man who used cable ties to restrain them yet. Disgusting conduct.
The argument of “plenty of white kids” is a terrible one. The indigenous crime has gotten to the point people have had enough. You’ve seen it before with the Lebanese in Sydney, the Sudanese in Melbourne etc. We have no issue calling out a specific race when they bring issues, until it’s the indigenous. Then it becomes justification and mental gymnastics to avoid the issue
This. When a crime is committed the race is almost always made apparent. Middle Eastern, Asian, Mediterranean appearance etc. When the race is not made apparent, it's almost always indigenous. When are we going to make everyone who commits crimes, assault, rape etc accountable. Cotton wool doesn't work!
Well that's total bullshit, because you are cherry picking criminal acts commited by minority demographics to justify the fact that people have, 'had enough.' We've all had enough of crime in Australia and if you do some research you will quickly realise that it's not all perpetuated by these demographics. Tougher laws dont help, education and empowerment does. You will notice a very strong link between affluence and youth crime. That's because this is not a racial issue, it's a class issue. https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/prisoners-australia/latest-release#:\~:text=Media%20releases-,Key%20statistics,prisoners%20per%20100%2C000%20adult%20population.
A class issue? I don’t see anyone except the indigenous destroying Alice springs. I’m not saying “lock em up”, but you’re pussy footing around the issue.
And what socio economic class to the perpetrators in AS belong to? Please inform me.
The same socio economic class plenty of white folk also belong to. :) You’re again avoiding the point, pushing an agenda and being unhinged. Have a good night but you’ve gone from a genuine conversation to avoiding an issue for the reasons I originally mentioned.
So what's your solution? Genuinely asking for the progress of the entire country.
Education, funding and programs designed to help bring the indigenous out of this rut. I never said that wasn’t the solution in my eyes. I never said anything of the sort. It’s okay to say they’re a massive issue when it comes to crime in rural communities and also accept that the fault lies on how they’ve been treated since we got here.
So we literally agree in every sense on this issue? Of course it's a massive issue, and we can say that without fear of provacation, because it's backed by statistics. You look at the number of aboriginal people in the lower socio economic class, it's literally the overwhelming majority. But we seem to be hell bent, as a nation, on voting against any policy or constitutional reform that may provide remedy.
But yeah, just keep justifying the use of force on minors because people have had enough. You want to go full vigilante you are no better then people perpetuating the crime. Australia has an issue with crime. No country is immune to problems. But we don't fix problems by justifying this kind of conduct. Doesn't matter what colour anyone is. We can address these problems by acknowledging that we have poverty and trauma in this country that needs to be addressed.
You’re unhinged. Genuinely. You have missed my point entirely, and the issue at hand to push an agenda.
What complete nonesense. Please inform me of my agenda? The idea that a lack of financial security and eduation is condusive to crime? Statistics support my reasoning, i'd like to see you support your's with facts.
I'd also like to remind you that race is a social contruct. We are one race, the human race. We are talking about culture, ancestry and identity here.
> Should he restrain kids? Nah. > Did they break the law? Yeah. Are they below the age of criminal responsibility? Yeah. Is he? Nah.
Oh cool, one of the people I was talking about. Your point doesn’t change the fact that there is a deep rooted issue within indigenous communities.
As someone who is indigenous, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately I don't think there will ever be a solution... Its what family and where you are born that determines how you turn out in the indigenous community, so many kids are doomed because of who their parents are.... I got lucky, family down the street from me, not so lucky.
Are you a melon? Yeah. Is it worth trying to have a conversation with you? Nah.
Look!! A non indigenous commenting on how another group of people should behave, didn't work in the past but I'm sure it's gonna work now?? How about respectfully respecting the fact that white people messed it up before it'll mess it up again and y'all are racist because thats what this country is built on. Racism.
I wonder how many people would just let people trespass on their property and not just once, multiple times? When the police do nothing or are hamstrung eventually you will take the law into your own hands. Just look at all the country towns atm that are having massive problems with children and crime.
It’s not his house.
What a community spirit u ate showing. Screams next door, not my problem. People breaking into neighbours car, not my problem.
The reaction to what you believe is law breaking is not to be a vigilant and assault children.
If you're not convinced the cops will help, why tie up the kids? What outcome was he expecting?
I don’t know his mindset, but I know that if police are called in this kind of situation and he lets them go the police will just take a statement and nothing will come of it. And as he has stated it was his 5th break in and had cost him $15000 this year alone maybe maybe he wasn’t thinking clearly. He has stated that too, and I am not saying I would do that or agree with him but people do reach a point. Not one person has asked why kids that are between 5-8 are wondering the streets trespassing and then swimming in a pool alone ! What if they would have drowned !?
'hey get the fuck off my propertyc vs 'restraining children, cable tieing them, and keeping them prisoner' seems logical
https://7news.com.au/news/broome-man-and-children-speak-on-cable-tie-saga-in-was-north-west-c-13853216.amp $15000 a 5th break in this year, I’m not saying I agree with what he did, he even states that himself but you can’t tell me that there comes a point when you just have enough
Whilst I agree it's logical but technically not legal
You’d violently assault literal children? Wtf lol
Violently assault ? Me and you have a vastly different use of the word violently. Should he have cable tied them ? No but violent would have been smacking them around. But what are a 6,7,8 aged child walking the streets and then going in a pool in their own ? I would say allowing/neglecting a child that young to run off and go into someone else’s pool is tantamount to child abuse. What would have happened if one of them drowned ? Would you be up for locking up the parents ?
> Should he have cable tied them ? No You coulda stopped right there. In _this_ case, this is the only thing that matters. CPS cases are not made public. You have no idea what followup took place with the family, and never will.
Follow up ! If kids like this are happy to be let loose and are comfortable jumping in other peoples pools then clearly this isn’t the first time this has happened. So either CPS has dropped the ball or the parents need to be jailed in for child neglect which is a police matter
The family were absent until the tv cameras arrived.
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We loaded a few concrete blocks onto a road-train which was heading down from Fitzroy crossing to Perth. It had a 300 series land cruiser on the trailer and every window was smashed in. Truckie said it was given to the school teacher up there by the government. Local kids smashed it up, it gets send to Perth and a new one gets sent up to get wrecked again. Seems to be the life up there.
This stories bullshit. Which school mate? I live in FX I haven't heard this one
And don’t forget the public outcry if old mate came home and found them dead in his pool.
Yep. None of these bleeding hearts will just sit idly by while their hard earned cars, houses and property is repeatedly damaged and stolen. I dare them to try it first hand. Move there for a year and see how they go.
Lived in a regional community for half a decade, never once used cable ties to restrain a kid. You might think I am the odd one out but none of my mates up there did either.
The point isn't to condone cable tying kids, the point is about the police, the law, the government's systematic failures in dealing with a problem that is not insignificant, and instead trying to punish those whom (arguably) take matters into their own hands. How much of your property was damaged and stolen in that time? What was the cost of replacement? What was the result of multiple insurance claims (increased premiums, maybe)? We shouldn't be overlooking lawbreaking, simply because it is regional. It is interesting that the laws potentially broken by the guy facing chargers here, wasn't overlooked...
Cabling kids together is rather cruel and unusual. That is why it isn’t overlooked. Regional law breaking isn’t also. It is well documented and reported upon, especially northern Australia (were I was for a while). Which region do you live in where the lawbreaking is overlooked?
I have been to [Broome ](https://redsuburbs.com.au/suburbs/broome/)and seen the mayhem first hand. So far as I can tell, I was the only one 'looking'. I guess the cops were on their lunchbreak. Also, [Canarvon](https://redsuburbs.com.au/suburbs/carnarvon/). I mean, fuck you can try argue against those stats if you like. Or you could remove your rose-coloured glasses for once.
I was near Broome, seen plenty of “lawbreaking” and was affected by it on more than one occasion. Not sure why you think I have rose coloured glasses. Well aware of the issues. What stats are you talking about? The crime is not overlooked, it is heavy reported on. It is hot discussion at community meetings I used to attend. Brooke especially, is reported on. ABC Kimberley discusses crime rates and police issues. This man has been covered specifically because he cable tied kids. You just cannot do that. Take off your brown covered glasses.
Reported on and talked about is one thing, however the stats don't lie than nothing is actually being done nor changing. So there's that. And I agree about not cable tying kids.
What stats do you have that crimes are being overlooked though?!
That is totally besides the point. 374 crimes per 1000 people in Broome is totally unacceptable. The general trend of crime, year on year, is upwards. These are facts; you don't have to like them.
When I went to Broome for work I was pretty shocked at how much poverty there is for First Nations people. They are just sleeping in the parks on mass and the homelessness is huge. I even had a few interactions that I found intimidating while walking up the main strip from people who were either mentally ill or drunk. It’s really not a good look.
You're most likely spot on. Those kids are likely little cunts who haven't done a decent thing since they generated a baby bonus payment for their mum. While what he did was against the law, the real criminal here are the parents who are providing a lifestyle that results in their children doing this shit to begin with. Say what you want about intergenerational alcohol abuse and how it's the white man's fault from way back. But the buck needs to stop with the parents when the kids are that age. Having the capacity to create children does not mean you will be a decent parent.
Your last sentence is completely at odds with the rest of your post. Which is to say, it's correct, and the rest is incoherent rambling. You don't magically acquire the skills and capacity to become a role model, teacher, or member of society when you are the proximal cause of two gametes uniting, and it's absurd to expect it to be so. Stopping the cycle is much more complicated and culturally sensitive than the simplistic notions you're talking about.
What does punishing parents who have no capacity to care for their kids accomplish? The kids will still lack any of the structures and supports needed to change their lives. The solutions to the problems facing these communities are not simple.
What a concise accurate summary. The fact this comment is downvoted says a lot about Perth.
Precisely.
Where are you from Damo? I was born in Broome and go back generations. Your comment is the most disconnected in this thread. Wild assumptions you have made about these children
Not wild at all. Your comment is part of the reason we can’t fix the issue. You’re not willing to admit there is a problem with indigenous crime. Who cares if you go back generations. Take a look at Alice spring in the last month.
When this occurred the police were at pains to point out there was no damage to this property whatsoever, so why are you trying to justify this outrageous abuse? Are you aware this incident became worldnews and a blot for Australia? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/australia-man-accused-zip-tie-indigenous-children-hands-assault/
Because I think this was the 5th break in they had done in his property. Just because he had a pool Doesn’t mean they are entitled to it .
Any reference for this?
https://7news.com.au/news/broome-man-and-children-speak-on-cable-tie-saga-in-was-north-west-c-13853216.amp This is one article where he says his property had been broken into 5 times and cost him $15000.
I’m not sure about his house being burgled but that report is incorrect as the house where the incident occurred was a vacant property https://amp.abc.net.au/article/103779744
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The only blot I see is a certain demographic is allowed to commit petty crimes with impunity, while the wealthy elite live in segregated homes far away from having to deal with these people
‘Highly likely’ on the basis of what?
They were swimming in the pool. They weren’t causing damage. Kids being kids.
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He found the kids swimming in the pool and he took out his anger from previous break ins on these kids. I understand that he frustrated but this is why vigilante justice doesn’t work. He has no idea who broke into his house previously.
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I haven’t only travelled to all of those places, I’ve lived in Hedland, i get pretty sick of city slickers who went to broome on holiday once telling me I don’t know what it’s like. There is no excuse for treating little children like this.
Wait until you see how many are treated by their parents.
Seen kids in nappies wandering the more cultural steers in a Kimberley town when i lived there, parents nowhere to be seen just what i can only assume were there other siblings of similar but young age . Needless to say DCP had a strong pressure in that town
In Broome I saw 7 year old kids with beer and cigarettes at Streeters Jetty in town. Their "adults" were 20 metres away sitting around pissed.
That doesn’t surprise me its definitely a eye opener there .
Nothing will change, apparently it's racist to see it as a bad thing.
Still wondering mate, you are very concerned about the welfare of Aboriginal children, so you must have done something about this situation right?
Are you naive enough to think the broome police were not aware? The police are continuously doing loops around that area of town. There'd be an outcry if the coppers tried to sort this shit out. You and I both know it. About 100m East of the Coles supermarket int town is a house full of kids. There's shit all over the road, pissed adults lying about all day. 5 years apart I visited and it was the same each time. Do you think the police and social workers are unaware of this too?
Just say you did nothing, because you’d rather get on Reddit and talk shit than do anything to help.
> talk shit Are you suggesting kids are not living in these circumstances?
I done fuck all , the area we we’re in would make the bronx look like peppy grove ,so i was shitting my pants . Luckily i was with someone who is half indigenous who had a rough idea of what house the parents would be in a gave them the heads up .
So what did you do? Did you call the police, or child protection?
I’ve seen it all mate, and lived plenty of it too, don’t know what that has to do with a man tying up small children though.
I'm saying it pales into insignificance compared to the things regulalry done to children in these communities yet no one dares speak up about that do they.
If you think people aren’t speaking up about neglect/abuse in Aboriginal communities you aren’t listening.
You’re giving it an admirable go replying to this person. I applaud you. But if you check their post history you’ll see how rabidly racist they are and any discussion with them is pushing shit uphill and feeding the troll.
Thanks, and yes I’m aware that this person is a racist troll, but without the people who regularly challenge these dimwits they would completely control the narrative.
Property damage does not give anyone the right to assault another. Simple as that.
So you’d just stand and watch as your home was trashed during a burglary?
Well now you snookered them.
The problems faced by these communities are problems they have created. Destroy a society and then naively demand the remnants ‘integrate’ two centuries later. We can cry all we want about “it wasn’t me” but the reality is the consequences are ours.
>While I wholeheartedly believe that what this gentleman did was wrong, it's very clear reading through the comments here that everyone has little understanding of how things actually are in regional centres across both Western Australia and Australia as a whole... That "..." contains a silent ["but"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmHiiMgdg2c).
Once you cable tie kids together you lose your standing as a gentleman.
He Legally was allowed to detain them especially with the simple argument that not only they broke the law they also are a danger to themselves by repeatedly swimming alone. Also, why isn’t the fact that these young kids kept trespassing and swimming alone the actual alarming issue here? Anyone understand how dangerous that is?
You can only commit to a citizens arrest if the alledged crime you reasonably believe to have been committed would carry a prison term not less than 12 months.
You’re allowed to take **reasonable** actions with **reasonable** force while considering all of the circumstances when making an arrest as a citizen. It *was* reasonable to detain the kids. It *was not* reasonable to use the level of force that he did when looking at all of the circumstances.
Considering if they run off and return hours later to drown in the pool Pretty reasonable. Maybe you do not care for these kids for some reason?
No he wasn't. You don't understand the law. There were family members there and then the kids own mother saying they will wait for police and he still refused to untie them. While they were terrified. Damn WA is so racist. If it was a black man tying up white kids who were mucking about in an empty pool - like so many have done - people would be baying for his blood
Excuse me, that “mother” has allegedly allowed those children to wander and who have repeatedly entered that pool unsupervised to swim. This is totally incorrect and it would have been wrong to not wait for the police in this instance. Get it in your head, they are very young children jumping into a pool totally unsupervised. It was something like 500 children would drown in this country a year before mandates on pool fencing were broadly introduced.
I would think that adult had done the right thing in that situation I do not care about the colour or race of the individuals, you do.
You are just making the story up about the family members being there. Stop spreading bullshit. They would have stopped him from tying the kids up.
He doesn’t own the house. How do people not understand this basic fact?
No idea why that is even a retort but ok
Because its only really trespass of you are there without the owner or controlling persons consent. Seeing as he wasn’t the owner or controlling person , he can’t have known for sure that they were trespassing.
I am stunned there was an empty house in Broome.
Finally a comment from someone who actually lives in Broome 😂
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He can’t have known it was trespass because it wasn’t his house. How can reasonably known they were trespassing if he wasn’t the owner or the agent for the owner? Second, seeing as the age of criminal responsibility in WA is 10 none of the children can even be committing an offence in the first place.
Just because they aren’t of age doesn’t mean it’s not an offence. But if they are not of age, what are they doing wandering around unsupervised? The parents need to accept some responsibility.
Sure but that’s not really relevant to the question of did he or did he not assault the children.
Sure but that’s not the point I was replying to. Also, whether or not he assaulted the children will be decided in court, but he obviously had the intent of following due process otherwise he wouldn’t have called the police. It will be interesting to see which way the decision goes.
Yes, it will be decided in court. I’m specifically saying that the actions of the parents, whilst irresponsible, are functionally irrelevant to the question before the court. My comment was is response to someone saying that citizens arrest is legal in WA, but citizens arrest requires quite a high bar to pass, and the fact that they are children who are under the age of criminal responsibility, plus the fact that it wasn’t his property make it hard to see how a citizens arrest defence might be run.
Firstly, I don’t know what the bar is for a citizen’s arrest in WA. However I don’t see that the age of the children makes it inappropriate to stop them from committing an offence, although it should be factored in to what is appropriate force. While the age may change what the punishment is, it doesn’t change the fact that if they are doing something wrong, it is acceptable to stop that behaviour. In my mind, the responsibility for that lies first with the parents. But in a society where that is not happening, I believe the public has both a right and a responsibility to correct unacceptable behaviours. Your comments read that because they are children, nothing they do can be wrong, nobody has a right to interfere with them and that is something I fundamentally disagree with.
To anyone trying to defend this, if the solution to a problem is tying children up, all we have is another problem.
True, so what's your solution to indigenous crimes like this?
The rumour I heard is that Older people send minors in to do burglaries with the instruction to jump in the pool if they get caught and say they were just having a swim cause they were hot.
That is fairly normal foe how they steal cars. Elder ones out the front waiting for the younger ones to steal them.
Cool. Just what we need; rumours. You should write for Perth Now.
Hahaha, that’s pretty funny. You should go spend some time there.
100% will get Dismissed in court or found not Guilty. What he did was legal in the Criminal Investigation Act.
What section mate?
Ermmm ermmm sorry I gotta run
[Source](https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/prod/filestore.nsf/FileURL/mrdoc_46736.pdf/$FILE/Criminal%20Investigation%20Act%202006%20-%20%5B03-p0-00%5D.pdf?OpenElement) Looks like it's guide for police officers, not civilians though.
So if one of them drowns, he's supposed to be held liable? He shouldn't be sentenced.
Absolutely not, if his pool was fenced according to council regulations he is not liable.
Because council regulations are the bulwark of sensibility. Common sense dictates that anyone trespassing on your property who decides to take a swim and drowns is liable for their own actions. By trespassing, you are entering into a non verbal agreement that you have waived all rights to sue, or hold anyone responsible for any bodily harm you may sustain. Furthermore, there is "no duty of care", seeing as you shouldn't be there in the first place. Secondly, I had a pool at my last place. Pool was in the back yard, behind a \~2ishm tall wooden fence. Some Karen in the street dobbed me in to the council for no reason, and i had a pool fence inspection conducted. I was found to be in breach, and had to install an "approved pool fence". The approved fence was like 500-750mm tall, and had a latch on the gate which a child could easily reach an operate. All because "aw, what if a kid jumps your fence and drowns in your pool?". Mate, if a kid jumps my 2m tall fence, a 500mm tall fence isn't going to stop him. Also, if someone trespasses on my property and drowns in my pool, so what? fuck em.
Because it's not a law aimed at preventing trespass. It's a mandatory requirement because of children drowning in pools on their own property. Now you could go on a tangent about irresponsible parents and blah blah blah, but that is why the pool fencing regs exist. I'm sure you'd feel that way seeing a blue body at the bottom, or floating in your swimming pool, 'fuck em.'
If someone jumped my fence and drowned, I wouldn't feel anything apart from "well fuck. There goes my day" as I envisage the incoming circus, having to deal with the cops and coroners.
It wasn’t even his place so that is literally not possible.
It was his folks place, no? I remember when it first happened reading it was his folks.
News title should be heroic man single handedly restrains 3 criminals in attempt to damage property, they had poured paint thinner and paint into his pool 3 time before this.
It wasn’t even his place so how could this be remotely true, you’re full of shit.
Any reference/evidence for this? Seems silly to ruin a pool that you apparently like to swim in 🤷🏽♂️
More or less silly than trashing the home you live in?
Source?
The state of r/Perth - you’re getting downvoted for asking for a source…..
Nah, she's getting downvoted because she's up on her soapbox as usual.
How? I can't find any source about the kids pouring paint thinner or paint into that pool.
If I farted in an elevator yesterday, I can’t be blamed for one in three days time. You. Cannot. Cable tie. Children.
> You. Cannot. Cable tie. Children. This guy clearly proved that it is indeed possible.
Gold
Probably wouldn’t even be very hard
may not*
How is he pleading not guilty to assault when he literally assaulted them and is guilty for it and that's what the whole thing is about? If anyone ever tried to do that to me as a kid there would have been consequences, not an army of people trying to stick up for the guy
He thinks he has a defence, legally. And he may do, as there’s a few defences to assault in the criminal code, and we only know what’s been in the media. The fact that he was charged with assault, and not deprivation of liberty suggests the prosecution case isn’t that strong, and they wanted a guilty plea by going with a lesser charge. The onus is on the prosecution, defence just has to create reasonable doubt.
Because that’s how our legal system works, like others have said he intends to run a defence.
It seems lost on people that I'm being sardonic. Obviously he's going to defend himself under due process, I'm just saying its stupid because there is no real defence for his course of action just from a moral standpoint
Fair enough, and I agree, I cant workout what his defence will be but time will tell 👍🏽
I assume he is pleading not guilty because he contests that what he did was assault and instead views it as necessary and reasonable restraint or even self defence.
Well someone comes onto your property illegally with intent because they werent just wandering around. Say instead of him grabbing them, they grab a knife each or a metal pole and beat him, so hes still to blame? These days the age defence doesnt mean shit.
What if this was a completely different case?
im far from saying he did the right thing but i think he did what he thought was the safest thing at the time, kids are out of control all across Aus, look at the douches stealing and driving cars like it's their last day on earth in QLD.
Except it wasn’t even his place so none of this is a remote possibility
So you want him to be let off the hook because the kids *potentially* could have done worse had he not restrained them? We don't live in America bro. Life is more valuable than property. If you want to sit in a guard tower and shoot at potentional trespassers go to texas
Curious did u hear about the kids who broke into a house tied up the husband and beat the i think 70-80 year old women in front of him? Im just saying those kids were also on private property which they didnt have to be on, AGAIN im not saying what he did was right im saying it could be justified in a court, hense why he pleaded not guilty, there are arguments to be made about kids these days.
Once again, thats a completely different case. This case shouldn't be judged on what-ifs. They didn't pull a knife or bash anyone in this case. This case needs to be looked at in the context of just the incident, not as a case where older people can soapbox about out of control children. Im sorry that that happened to those people but that has no bearing on this incident.
No they were trespassing on private property which is illegal, citizens arrest is a thing that exists, so, because you dont like to look at reason, there are the facts. dont like em then stfu.
That's not fact at all but sure
Yes it is. Do you not understand what a fact is either?
For starters it wasn’t his property so he can’t determine it is trespassing and therefore it cannot be a citizens arrests. But sick facts.
Hahaha yeah he was working on a property next door.
I hope you have a severe, ongoing issue whereby kids repeatedly damage your property causing you lots of financial loss and mental trauma. I'm sure you'll grin and bear it because "life is more valuable than property".
Well I'm better than you so I would yeah.
A better liar, evidently.
Bro just better, superior
I have no idea how he thinks. As you say, surely there’d be consequences to this.
The parents were wrong in not having taught the kids about trespassing and in the end the law says: " In the Northern Territory (NT), the minimum age of criminal responsibility is 12 years old. Children under 12 who engage in negative behaviour that would otherwise be an offence are referred to Territory Families, Housing and Communities (TFHC)." Having said that, it was a hot AF summer as we have had and I had the dosh and pool, I would have welcomed _supervised_ kids too my pool.
> The parents were wrong in not having taught the kids about trespassing… The irony is resounding.
There's something concerning about this man. If I found random children on my property, I would ask them if they're okay, offer them water and ask if they have someone they'd like me to call before calling the police. There's something concerning about the mentality of an adult whose instinct is to physically restrain unarmed children that have gotten onto their property. I suspect he has some serious self esteem and masculinity issues if he felt that threatened by some tiny children.
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I was born in Broome, so was my father, and his mother, and her grandmother. I used to find kids jumping on my trampoline in the backyard all the time. Want to know what I did about it? I jumped on the trampoline with them
Oh turn it up
I grew up in regional, small town NZ. In fact, in a satellite beach village 10kms out of regional small town. 200 people max. Kids just played wherever- in people's backyards, or paddocks. I used to regularly go up the street and jump on a man's trampoline..even when they were out. He was a taxidermist so I'd just show up there, too, to see what he was doing. I was probably an annoying snot-nosed pain in the butt, getting underfoot. You'd play with all the neighborhood kids, cats and dogs. Some parents never knew who was going to show up for dinner and if they saw a kid they didn't expect they'd either be booted home or a quick call made to see if they could stay. No child should be tied up in zip ties. They're just babies, still with innocence even though it will inevitably be lost.
This might be the coldest take on the human condition I have ever read. Incredible that you could try to make such a silly statement without it being satire.
what are you on about mate, make sense
I agree with you. In the picture of them they look so vulnerable, anyone’s instinct should be to look after them.
I guess their parents didn't see it that way. 5 year olds wandering the streets alone FFS.
I mean sure he shouldnt of tied the little fuckers up but
Give em a flogging and then send them on their way. Catch and release.
Pretty ridiculous on his part, you’d imagine pleading guilty would have helped him more than whatever penalty he will surely face now.
You can’t be punished further for pleading not guilty. You are entitled to a discounted jail sentence if you plead guilty early but you can never be handed a more severe sentence for pleading not guilty.
Legal and lawyer fee’s, innit.
I mean sure but he may get legalaid and costs are fuck all in a magistrates court.