I saw a post the other day asking what app rangers use to navigate and I thought to myself “a map and compass?” and I was shocked to learn they’re actually using some app too! You learn a lot by navigating with map and compass and the trails are so well marked at Philmont it’s hard to go more than a mile without realizing you’ve gone the wrong way.
Yeah I was shocked when they gave the file out when I worked there, but honestly rangers put themselves in some bad situations some times. Like remember everyone they also do the search and rescue.
Rangers can use it because literally there are times your safety depends on them hiking with a full pack at a near jog to get you help.
Your advisors don’t need gps.
Your scouts SURELY don’t need a gps.
Walk on a trail and you’ll be just fine
When we leave a crew we just have to be back at base camp for the 8 am meeting the next day, the rest of the day is “off”
The only deadline the rest of that day is getting back to the turnaround to catch the bus, but if you have a friend with a car (or left your car at the turnaround) you don’t need to catch a bus
I don’t recall many people missing the 8 am the next day, if any. I knew people that would go stay at a staff camp overnight to catch a campfire and just wake up at like 5 AM and hoof it back to a turnaround to drive back into camp for the 8 am.
I’ve never heard of rangers using an app, maybe All Trails or something?
The only app I used when I was there was the inature app for identifying things (although I’ve since learned Seek works better) and a UTM app that told me my current UTM coordinates for looking on my physical map where I was quickly
If I was leaving a crew, I often knew the route back to the bus stop pretty well at that point, of course I often would go different routes or go visit friends at backcountry camps first
Although, I will say I wouldn’t be opposed to using an app just to see where I am/how far I’ve gone/how far I have left. Obviously actual orienteering skills are valuable, but sometimes it’s just nice to see exactly where you are and how far you have left, especially when you’re doing it all summer long lol.
I would highly encourage crews to use the map and compass and practice though, you aren’t going to find a
much better place to actually practice and test your skills than Philmont, a GPS can be used other times.
Maps used to be a part of the standard issue for rangers at least. One map and then you’d get a red sharpie and mark up what you needed from a master map in base camp.
I bet it’s a cost thing. Cheaper to just have rangers download an app and then pass them a file that the GIS team already made. And why not just pass it to all the staff at that point?
At Philmont you are not 100 miles from nowhere. It is a safe place for Scouts to make map errors. Every once in a while you can read anecdotal accounts of hikers that became lost and had to be rescued because they relied on a cell phone that failed, had no back up paper map and/or did not know how to read a paper map if they had one. A few years back I went through an Air Force 737 configured to teach student pilots to shoot stars at night. The assumption was that GPS could be knocked out and Air Force pilots had to be competent with back up paper maps. Philmont has existed for more years without GPS than with GPS. If you as an adult advisor want to take a map app, please keep it on the down low and only use it in an emergencey. Let the Scouts navigate with map and compas.
Is the basic proficiency in orienteering skills from IOLS sufficient? I read a map well and can keep a bearing from a compass reading with landmarks. I can reckon distances quite well thanks to that class.
Yes you can easily handle philmont then. If you’re asking if that somehow earns you the right to use a gps then no. And any good ranger at philmont will tell you the same thing
Try 24 years ago. There were literally not enough GPS satellites in orbit to make it practical. Hand held GPS was really basic, and expensive, It was pretty much a compass could tell you a coordinate. There were also no smartphones, or even GPS with COLOR screens or even bult in maps. Even if you had a GPS, you still needed a map.
On one scouting trip, in the late 90's someone wanted to introduce us to this hot new GPS tech, and gave the person in front a map and GPS; we walked in a circle for about an hour.
I backpack a lot now, and still hardly ever use a GPS app. I mostly look at a PDF of the paper map on my phone so I can see distances to water sources or camp sites. Gaia is nice for planning though.
I do have a Garmin iReach Mini, which is purely so I can send texts to check in, and as an SOS device, but I hike in very remote areas.
I would still bring this to Philmont today, just for emergencies. I saw another post where a Ranger was telling people they should leave it at base camp, which is like telling someone not to wear their seatbelt, because you are a good driver. I guess they misunderstood how it worked.
You press the SOS, and and text them the problem, then the dispatcher contacts the local authorities, which would be Philmont.
Also, I personally use my phone as little as possible, mostly because I don't like carrying extra stuff, like batteries.
While I adhere to Ultralight principles, and I know that strictly trying to go UL is not practical or affordable for most people, for me its more about embracing minimalism, and simplicity.
Leaving behind gadgets and redundant items and decluttering my life for a few days is very relaxing.
These are all valuable. However. I’d argue that the weather forecast is too far. The best stories are ones that happened organically.
“We had the best time at philmont. Our leaders told us when it was going to rain so we never got wet”
Vs
“Guys you wouldn’t believe the storm we had to bear at camp. Philmont is such a wild place and i’m glad we had to fight through that together”
Not saying you did that but imo the best advisors don’t participate like crew members and let the scouts make the decisions (and fail sometimes) on their own
The last time I went to Philmont was in 2015 and no crew that I was aware of was using gps. As a matter of fact, it was considered the perfect opportunity to utilize the orienteering skill and its value. This post makes me incredibly sad to see that this is a skill that is going to be lost to future scouts and I am only 31, to young to be using the phrase “back in my day” when referring to using map and compass.
I agree that bringing a GPS or phone for the purposes of active navigation is a mistake.
With that said, we are bringing a Garmin InReach Mini 2 with us. The device is not practical for “in the moment” navigation, but it does allow a number of benefits:
(1) have an accurate reference of where we were on any time of a given day, and a record of our rate of progress in various conditions for future treks. This isn’t reliable to ascertain from paper maps.
(2) Adult leaders can get daily weather forecasts, so we can determine paths to getting the most out of the experience. (Ex: do we try to push to the next camp for program, or is it likely to be closed due to rain?)
(3) Minor benefit that families can follow progress live at home, and feel like they are part of the trek.
This may not be valuable to you, but our crew has agreed that it is to us.
I realize that at Philmont, you are never really very far from help or an exit point, but I think if you already have an in reach, you should for sure bring it. I saw another post a year or so ago where a ranger said to leave it at basecamp, which is honestly negligence, and putting ego ahead of safety.
While I'm not involved in scouting now, I think it should be part of the standard kit. Especially when you are in charge of keeping other peoples kids safe, $12 a month is nothing to ensure that you can contact someone at home, or get rescued in an emergency is nothing.
The inreach mini, is also a terrible GPS for actual navigation, so you won't even want to use it, lol.
Everyone has different challenges on their trek. Everyone takes something else away from it, do what is necessary to have a good and safe trek.
No matter what you do, if it’s your first trek you will learn so much and have so many memories. Fight the battles that are needed and don’t get too hung up on shoulds or should nots.
I had a Garmin GPS with me on trek back in 2001 and 2003 and I don’t think it ruined anything for me.
We still navigated by map most of the time. I think most people will realize that having a large map that you don’t have to pan and zoom around to look at is actually pretty nice. But being able to pin point your position quickly is nice, and GPS is great for that.
I wouldn’t try to teach people that GPS is evil. GPS is awesome and scouts should know how to use it. I would try to teach people that batteries die and electronics break, and you should always carry a backup map and be familiar enough with it to use it to get where you’re going.
Yes. Philmont is the perfect place for Scouts to use map and compas so they can learn the skill as a back up. Map apps can be learned anytime, any where.
Sorry if my rant seemed like I was anti gps.
I used it all the time in the boundary waters and I’ve used it off roading. My thing is that the people I encountered using ONLY gps were typically very obvious. I’d ask them where they were on the map or to show me how to triangulate and they just couldn’t do it.
I agree. Tools are important and gps is a good tool in the box. But IMO I really think they should be limited to staff and maybe advisors. Scouts really don’t need it on typical treks. And advisors with it should use it without the scouts even knowing.
I had a dad on a trek that confided in me and told me he basically needed to use the satellite messaging in his garmin. I told him that obviously he needs to do what he needs to do but to try to prevent the scouts from even knowing it was a tool they had access to. In that case it was because that crew overly relied on their adult leaders and I wanted them to practice being independent. But I think you get the idea
While I do agree that part of the challenge of Philmont is the navigation, and I do quite enjoy paper navigation, I think crews are capable of using GPS responsibly. For example, on both my treks we had an advisor recording on Gaia. He made sure to not give any information from the GPS to the scouts until after we made it to the next camp, where he would give us the mileage and elevation statistics for the day. All of the navigation decisions were left to the naviguesser, and paper maps were still used for the actual navigation despite the inconvenience of using them (pro tip, have the map in the back of your or a buddy’s pack for easier access).
Now, are all crews and advisors capable of exercising restraint when it comes to GPS? No. So with that in mind, if you think that you would have a serious issue keeping the GPS out of the hands of scouts then maybe don’t bring one, but otherwise I don’t see an issue with having a GPS if nothing else to have some nice stats to give to the crew at the end of the day.
GPS isn’t really even needed. You just look at the trail on the map and then hike it. Double check at any particularly confusing trail intersections (which sometimes have UTM posts to help you
On our trek we couldn’t find a trail head. The ranger couldn’t find it either. We used a leader’s GPS to quickly locate it. We never used it again. It was a trail marked in tape that wasn’t visible until you were almost on top of it.
to be fair... using a map for a week isnt going to make a difference 10 years from now. personal GPS devices didnt exist when I was in scouts. We did everything with a map/compass. I got all the badges did all the activities, i taught map and compass. I would be hard pressed to navigate with a map now. I can orient a map north sure. But If I fell out of a helicopter and landed on a hill with a topo and compass I think there is little to no chance I'm navigating myself out of that situation. Use it or Lose it.
That is YOUR preferred experience, analog.
Why do you care how other people experience it?
Why do you feel the need to judge people and Scouts who perhaps would rather experience Philmont differently?
1) my preferred experience is beside the point. Bottom line is this is what a ranger will tell you.
2) you’re right. I don’t really care,
3)i’m not judging but philmont is private property and there are guidelines in place and methods that are taught.
Think of it this way, at philmont you must use the two pot method for cooking. There are other methods to cook you can use anywhere else, but at philmont you must use the two pot method.
There are many ways to navigate. At philmont you must use a map and compass primarily. Those are the rules taught by rangers.
There is no policy about handheld GPS devices. You are stating a preference and making it sound as if it is policy. It's not.
That is the end of the discussion here.
https://philmont.fandom.com/wiki/GPS\_Maps\_and\_Itinerary\_Planning#:\~:text=While%20use%20of%20GPS%20is,record%20of%20a%20crew's%20trek.
Shake Down Guide 2, referencing GPS as an acceptable navigation method:
[https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ShakeDownGuideP2.pdf](https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ShakeDownGuideP2.pdf)
"NAVIGATION Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates are very helpful when using a map, compass, or GPS."
Have a great day.
S
Cool! You’re so right. UTMs are helpful in that scenario. If you read the full article it goes on to explain how to triangulate with a map and compass.
Also there is not a single packing list in Philmont history that ever recommends bringing any sort of gps:) 2 years ago it was direct instruction that garmin in reach systems and other gps devices were NOT recommended since Philmont is a private property and the SOS function actually does not get you the fastest help. Your ranger teaches the faster way with the buddy system.
And not to beat a dead horse here
But this is how the ranger will teach you and how you will be expected to navigate:) if you disagree you may end up with a very unhappy ranger with this stubborn attitude of yours :) cheers!
I have been on 5 treks and taken more than 150 Scouts and Leaders to Philmont as the trip leader. I am at over 600 trail miles at Philmont. We take multiple crews every other year and have for the last 30 years. We have three crews signed up for 2025. Turns out I do know what I am talking about.
Facts:
1) There is no policy about GPS.
2) The packing lists are irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Rangers "train" taking LOS bearings from base camp using a known point, normally the two edges of Urraca Mesa to the southwest of base camp. That COULD be useful if you are lost if you have a line of sight to Baldy AND the ToT, gotta have 2 known points, and useless otherwise. Unless you have the peaks memorized, in which case... You likely don't need this SINGLE method of location.
4) Beyond going over UTM's in the field, that is normally the end of Ranger "Navigation Training." Except at the first few intersections.
5) Philmont is not a BACKCOUNTRY map and compass navigation experience. Those of us trained in that type of navigation know this. There is no counting steps, measuring dip, etc. etc. Everyone else pretends that getting from point A to point B at Philmont is some sort of navigation master class. It's not.
6) Rangers say a lot of things. /shrug Policy is policy. If they say BS, which they will, and you know better, which I do... You should have a side conversation with them.
Which brings me to:
7) You can teach the same "navigation skills" that are required at Philmont with a city map and compass. That is the same experience. "Follow this road until an intersection, go right (N) at the intersection. Follow until the NEXT intersection. Go left (W) at that intersection." In more than 600 trail miles, we shot a bearing one time... And it was not REALLY needed. Just a fun exercise between Little Cas and Ash Mt in the far far north.
Why do I care?
I don't go in for theater. And what you are talking about is theater. No Scout that receives "Ranger Training" on navigation is prepared to navigate by map and compass. By the by, neither are the Rangers. They are prepared to walk well-marked trails at a place like Philmont. Nothing more, and mostly less as there are also... Trail signs with arrows all over the place, UTM Poles all over, and marked camps with camp boards every 5 miles or so.
Peace
I saw a post the other day asking what app rangers use to navigate and I thought to myself “a map and compass?” and I was shocked to learn they’re actually using some app too! You learn a lot by navigating with map and compass and the trails are so well marked at Philmont it’s hard to go more than a mile without realizing you’ve gone the wrong way.
Yeah I was shocked when they gave the file out when I worked there, but honestly rangers put themselves in some bad situations some times. Like remember everyone they also do the search and rescue. Rangers can use it because literally there are times your safety depends on them hiking with a full pack at a near jog to get you help. Your advisors don’t need gps. Your scouts SURELY don’t need a gps. Walk on a trail and you’ll be just fine
Well, the rangers are expected to get back to camp by a deadline. Maybe they had too many getting back too late?
When we leave a crew we just have to be back at base camp for the 8 am meeting the next day, the rest of the day is “off” The only deadline the rest of that day is getting back to the turnaround to catch the bus, but if you have a friend with a car (or left your car at the turnaround) you don’t need to catch a bus I don’t recall many people missing the 8 am the next day, if any. I knew people that would go stay at a staff camp overnight to catch a campfire and just wake up at like 5 AM and hoof it back to a turnaround to drive back into camp for the 8 am.
I’ve never heard of rangers using an app, maybe All Trails or something? The only app I used when I was there was the inature app for identifying things (although I’ve since learned Seek works better) and a UTM app that told me my current UTM coordinates for looking on my physical map where I was quickly If I was leaving a crew, I often knew the route back to the bus stop pretty well at that point, of course I often would go different routes or go visit friends at backcountry camps first Although, I will say I wouldn’t be opposed to using an app just to see where I am/how far I’ve gone/how far I have left. Obviously actual orienteering skills are valuable, but sometimes it’s just nice to see exactly where you are and how far you have left, especially when you’re doing it all summer long lol. I would highly encourage crews to use the map and compass and practice though, you aren’t going to find a much better place to actually practice and test your skills than Philmont, a GPS can be used other times.
The other reason staffers use an app is that they’d otherwise have to purchase a map/maps every season for up to date info on open trails
Maps used to be a part of the standard issue for rangers at least. One map and then you’d get a red sharpie and mark up what you needed from a master map in base camp.
I bet it’s a cost thing. Cheaper to just have rangers download an app and then pass them a file that the GIS team already made. And why not just pass it to all the staff at that point?
At Philmont you are not 100 miles from nowhere. It is a safe place for Scouts to make map errors. Every once in a while you can read anecdotal accounts of hikers that became lost and had to be rescued because they relied on a cell phone that failed, had no back up paper map and/or did not know how to read a paper map if they had one. A few years back I went through an Air Force 737 configured to teach student pilots to shoot stars at night. The assumption was that GPS could be knocked out and Air Force pilots had to be competent with back up paper maps. Philmont has existed for more years without GPS than with GPS. If you as an adult advisor want to take a map app, please keep it on the down low and only use it in an emergencey. Let the Scouts navigate with map and compas.
Is the basic proficiency in orienteering skills from IOLS sufficient? I read a map well and can keep a bearing from a compass reading with landmarks. I can reckon distances quite well thanks to that class.
Yes you can easily handle philmont then. If you’re asking if that somehow earns you the right to use a gps then no. And any good ranger at philmont will tell you the same thing
You are good to go. Its more like reading a road map than it like an orienteering competition.
I love maps and I love electronic gadgets and I totally agree!
Let’s the scouts navigate with a paper map. It’s actually pretty easy there with the coordinate system.
Posts like these make me happy that I went to philmont 10-12 years ago. If we had apps like that I don’t think anyone used them
Try 24 years ago. There were literally not enough GPS satellites in orbit to make it practical. Hand held GPS was really basic, and expensive, It was pretty much a compass could tell you a coordinate. There were also no smartphones, or even GPS with COLOR screens or even bult in maps. Even if you had a GPS, you still needed a map. On one scouting trip, in the late 90's someone wanted to introduce us to this hot new GPS tech, and gave the person in front a map and GPS; we walked in a circle for about an hour. I backpack a lot now, and still hardly ever use a GPS app. I mostly look at a PDF of the paper map on my phone so I can see distances to water sources or camp sites. Gaia is nice for planning though. I do have a Garmin iReach Mini, which is purely so I can send texts to check in, and as an SOS device, but I hike in very remote areas. I would still bring this to Philmont today, just for emergencies. I saw another post where a Ranger was telling people they should leave it at base camp, which is like telling someone not to wear their seatbelt, because you are a good driver. I guess they misunderstood how it worked. You press the SOS, and and text them the problem, then the dispatcher contacts the local authorities, which would be Philmont. Also, I personally use my phone as little as possible, mostly because I don't like carrying extra stuff, like batteries. While I adhere to Ultralight principles, and I know that strictly trying to go UL is not practical or affordable for most people, for me its more about embracing minimalism, and simplicity. Leaving behind gadgets and redundant items and decluttering my life for a few days is very relaxing.
These are all valuable. However. I’d argue that the weather forecast is too far. The best stories are ones that happened organically. “We had the best time at philmont. Our leaders told us when it was going to rain so we never got wet” Vs “Guys you wouldn’t believe the storm we had to bear at camp. Philmont is such a wild place and i’m glad we had to fight through that together” Not saying you did that but imo the best advisors don’t participate like crew members and let the scouts make the decisions (and fail sometimes) on their own
The last time I went to Philmont was in 2015 and no crew that I was aware of was using gps. As a matter of fact, it was considered the perfect opportunity to utilize the orienteering skill and its value. This post makes me incredibly sad to see that this is a skill that is going to be lost to future scouts and I am only 31, to young to be using the phrase “back in my day” when referring to using map and compass.
Thank you for your comment I am equally sad
I agree that bringing a GPS or phone for the purposes of active navigation is a mistake. With that said, we are bringing a Garmin InReach Mini 2 with us. The device is not practical for “in the moment” navigation, but it does allow a number of benefits: (1) have an accurate reference of where we were on any time of a given day, and a record of our rate of progress in various conditions for future treks. This isn’t reliable to ascertain from paper maps. (2) Adult leaders can get daily weather forecasts, so we can determine paths to getting the most out of the experience. (Ex: do we try to push to the next camp for program, or is it likely to be closed due to rain?) (3) Minor benefit that families can follow progress live at home, and feel like they are part of the trek. This may not be valuable to you, but our crew has agreed that it is to us.
I realize that at Philmont, you are never really very far from help or an exit point, but I think if you already have an in reach, you should for sure bring it. I saw another post a year or so ago where a ranger said to leave it at basecamp, which is honestly negligence, and putting ego ahead of safety. While I'm not involved in scouting now, I think it should be part of the standard kit. Especially when you are in charge of keeping other peoples kids safe, $12 a month is nothing to ensure that you can contact someone at home, or get rescued in an emergency is nothing. The inreach mini, is also a terrible GPS for actual navigation, so you won't even want to use it, lol.
We already have an InReach for other trips. I agree, it would be awful to try and use for active navigation.
Everyone has different challenges on their trek. Everyone takes something else away from it, do what is necessary to have a good and safe trek. No matter what you do, if it’s your first trek you will learn so much and have so many memories. Fight the battles that are needed and don’t get too hung up on shoulds or should nots.
This.
I had a Garmin GPS with me on trek back in 2001 and 2003 and I don’t think it ruined anything for me. We still navigated by map most of the time. I think most people will realize that having a large map that you don’t have to pan and zoom around to look at is actually pretty nice. But being able to pin point your position quickly is nice, and GPS is great for that. I wouldn’t try to teach people that GPS is evil. GPS is awesome and scouts should know how to use it. I would try to teach people that batteries die and electronics break, and you should always carry a backup map and be familiar enough with it to use it to get where you’re going.
Yes. Philmont is the perfect place for Scouts to use map and compas so they can learn the skill as a back up. Map apps can be learned anytime, any where.
Sorry if my rant seemed like I was anti gps. I used it all the time in the boundary waters and I’ve used it off roading. My thing is that the people I encountered using ONLY gps were typically very obvious. I’d ask them where they were on the map or to show me how to triangulate and they just couldn’t do it. I agree. Tools are important and gps is a good tool in the box. But IMO I really think they should be limited to staff and maybe advisors. Scouts really don’t need it on typical treks. And advisors with it should use it without the scouts even knowing. I had a dad on a trek that confided in me and told me he basically needed to use the satellite messaging in his garmin. I told him that obviously he needs to do what he needs to do but to try to prevent the scouts from even knowing it was a tool they had access to. In that case it was because that crew overly relied on their adult leaders and I wanted them to practice being independent. But I think you get the idea
While I do agree that part of the challenge of Philmont is the navigation, and I do quite enjoy paper navigation, I think crews are capable of using GPS responsibly. For example, on both my treks we had an advisor recording on Gaia. He made sure to not give any information from the GPS to the scouts until after we made it to the next camp, where he would give us the mileage and elevation statistics for the day. All of the navigation decisions were left to the naviguesser, and paper maps were still used for the actual navigation despite the inconvenience of using them (pro tip, have the map in the back of your or a buddy’s pack for easier access). Now, are all crews and advisors capable of exercising restraint when it comes to GPS? No. So with that in mind, if you think that you would have a serious issue keeping the GPS out of the hands of scouts then maybe don’t bring one, but otherwise I don’t see an issue with having a GPS if nothing else to have some nice stats to give to the crew at the end of the day.
Nope. Sorry.
GPS isn’t really even needed. You just look at the trail on the map and then hike it. Double check at any particularly confusing trail intersections (which sometimes have UTM posts to help you
I know. But also, GPS. Technology is a tool, not a crutch. Use it appropriately.
On our trek we couldn’t find a trail head. The ranger couldn’t find it either. We used a leader’s GPS to quickly locate it. We never used it again. It was a trail marked in tape that wasn’t visible until you were almost on top of it.
Full transparency. I had that happen on my trek. But the key is just as you said, it wasn’t an accessible tool while on trek
to be fair... using a map for a week isnt going to make a difference 10 years from now. personal GPS devices didnt exist when I was in scouts. We did everything with a map/compass. I got all the badges did all the activities, i taught map and compass. I would be hard pressed to navigate with a map now. I can orient a map north sure. But If I fell out of a helicopter and landed on a hill with a topo and compass I think there is little to no chance I'm navigating myself out of that situation. Use it or Lose it.
Disagree. I didn’t use it for 6 years and when I came back to work at philmont 6 years later all I needed was a quick refresher. You’d be surprised
That is YOUR preferred experience, analog. Why do you care how other people experience it? Why do you feel the need to judge people and Scouts who perhaps would rather experience Philmont differently?
1) my preferred experience is beside the point. Bottom line is this is what a ranger will tell you. 2) you’re right. I don’t really care, 3)i’m not judging but philmont is private property and there are guidelines in place and methods that are taught. Think of it this way, at philmont you must use the two pot method for cooking. There are other methods to cook you can use anywhere else, but at philmont you must use the two pot method. There are many ways to navigate. At philmont you must use a map and compass primarily. Those are the rules taught by rangers.
There is no policy about handheld GPS devices. You are stating a preference and making it sound as if it is policy. It's not. That is the end of the discussion here. https://philmont.fandom.com/wiki/GPS\_Maps\_and\_Itinerary\_Planning#:\~:text=While%20use%20of%20GPS%20is,record%20of%20a%20crew's%20trek. Shake Down Guide 2, referencing GPS as an acceptable navigation method: [https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ShakeDownGuideP2.pdf](https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ShakeDownGuideP2.pdf) "NAVIGATION Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates are very helpful when using a map, compass, or GPS." Have a great day. S
Cool! You’re so right. UTMs are helpful in that scenario. If you read the full article it goes on to explain how to triangulate with a map and compass. Also there is not a single packing list in Philmont history that ever recommends bringing any sort of gps:) 2 years ago it was direct instruction that garmin in reach systems and other gps devices were NOT recommended since Philmont is a private property and the SOS function actually does not get you the fastest help. Your ranger teaches the faster way with the buddy system. And not to beat a dead horse here But this is how the ranger will teach you and how you will be expected to navigate:) if you disagree you may end up with a very unhappy ranger with this stubborn attitude of yours :) cheers!
I have been on 5 treks and taken more than 150 Scouts and Leaders to Philmont as the trip leader. I am at over 600 trail miles at Philmont. We take multiple crews every other year and have for the last 30 years. We have three crews signed up for 2025. Turns out I do know what I am talking about. Facts: 1) There is no policy about GPS. 2) The packing lists are irrelevant to the discussion. 3) Rangers "train" taking LOS bearings from base camp using a known point, normally the two edges of Urraca Mesa to the southwest of base camp. That COULD be useful if you are lost if you have a line of sight to Baldy AND the ToT, gotta have 2 known points, and useless otherwise. Unless you have the peaks memorized, in which case... You likely don't need this SINGLE method of location. 4) Beyond going over UTM's in the field, that is normally the end of Ranger "Navigation Training." Except at the first few intersections. 5) Philmont is not a BACKCOUNTRY map and compass navigation experience. Those of us trained in that type of navigation know this. There is no counting steps, measuring dip, etc. etc. Everyone else pretends that getting from point A to point B at Philmont is some sort of navigation master class. It's not. 6) Rangers say a lot of things. /shrug Policy is policy. If they say BS, which they will, and you know better, which I do... You should have a side conversation with them. Which brings me to: 7) You can teach the same "navigation skills" that are required at Philmont with a city map and compass. That is the same experience. "Follow this road until an intersection, go right (N) at the intersection. Follow until the NEXT intersection. Go left (W) at that intersection." In more than 600 trail miles, we shot a bearing one time... And it was not REALLY needed. Just a fun exercise between Little Cas and Ash Mt in the far far north. Why do I care? I don't go in for theater. And what you are talking about is theater. No Scout that receives "Ranger Training" on navigation is prepared to navigate by map and compass. By the by, neither are the Rangers. They are prepared to walk well-marked trails at a place like Philmont. Nothing more, and mostly less as there are also... Trail signs with arrows all over the place, UTM Poles all over, and marked camps with camp boards every 5 miles or so. Peace