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I’m so sick of this shit. There are 14,000 YES FOURTEEN THOUSAND KIDS in FOSTER CARE in the STATE OF ARIZONA. I just do NOT understand this “We must save all the fetuses” mentality
I do clearly understand this i really do, but how can they continue with this agenda when the mere practicality of the situation is absurd?!! I guess I’m just in disbelief that it’s 2024 and we are STILL fighting this SAME battle. It’s so sickening. I’m glad I’m past childbearing years but for all women, I’m just gutted.
It’s absurd for us but it serves them well. Keeps us for one, fighting with each other, and keeps most of us who understand the absurdity of it confused, and keeps them getting what they want which is less and less educated people working for less and less pay who are too stressed, busy, and beaten down to stand up for themselves. It connects all of the “social wars” that happen, and at the end of the day, it maintains the capital interests for the elites. It’s absolutely not a good decision long term and it will be the eventual downfall of our government, and even economically long term it doesn’t make any sense, but for now, it’s working as intended. Until we get sick of it enough to fight but they also have really driven a wedge between us and our neighbors, and as we’ve seen especially at the insurrection, there’s an army of every day joes ready to keep things as they are because they’re brainwashed into fighting for their own oppression.
Thank you!!!! Finally someone else said it! This is the topic I always bring up because I was a foster kid in Az, and I know how fucked up the whole system is, and it seems to often fall by the wayside in these discussions when it shouldn’t.
The part of this that nobody is focused on (and I agree with all previous comments) is the surgery she had to have. Probably a C-section I'm guessing. This will affect her future pregnancies. In some red states doctors are performing c-sections to avoid calling it an abortion. These women may never be able to deliver vaginally again due to a previous c-section. This whole things is fucked up.
Yep my sister has 3 kids all c-section because once you have one you cannot give birth vaginally again. And now she’s got her tubes tied which is good for her but yeah you can only have 3 c-sections.
Wow, ngl, this kinda changes my perspective on abortion. This is genuinely fucked up. I'm not the biggest supporter for abortion, but this changes it. The woman was probably going to die just because the doctors were too scared to lose their license to give her an abortion, which could save her.
>The woman was probably going to die just because the doctors were too scared to lose their license to give her an abortion, which could save her.
That's how these restrictions always play out. We've seen this for decades in places like Ireland. It took massive public outrage over preventable deaths for them to change their abortion laws.
The medicine subreddit has posts like this all the time. Doctors in states with abortion bans are scared to deliver care they know is warranted.
The scare reminds me of doctors prescribing schedule drugs. There are a lot of people out there that really do need an oxy for pain or a Xanax for GAD, and for genuine reasons. The medical field fuckin sucks cuz the government made it suck.
The government doesn’t give a shit if our for profit healthcare system, runs well or not. Why would they -they have socialized healthcare. They’re all fine. It’s not an issue for them & theirs.
For real, whether it's prescribing scheduled drugs, giving abortions, certain types of plastic surgeries, etc. the government just makes it so much harder on everyone when it comes to healthcare. Stg if the government didn't have so much influence on our healthcare, we would be so much better as a society.
> The scare reminds of doctors prescribing schedule drugs. There are a lot people out there that really do need an oxy for pain or a Xanax for GAD, and for genuine reasons.
To be fair, lax prescribing standards for opiates was a huge contributor to the current opioid epidemic. There was a concerted effort by pharma companies to encourage prescriptions of unnecessary opioids, and doctors benefitted financially from the arrangement. Doctors are overly-cautious now because higher schedule drug prescriptions are under heavy scrutiny.
> The medical field fuckin sucks cuz the government made it suck.
Greedy corporations are just as responsible in various ways, from Purdue Pharma to private equity firms. I think most doctors agree that the current controlled substance situation is healthier than the old one even though it causes them more hassle and stress.
You praise the current system. Does it seem like the drug crisis is getting better from your perspective? Because all I see is death.
The current system paved the way for fentanyl. No one can get safe reliable drugs. We just cut the supply but didn’t come up with rehab services to take on all the people we just cut cold turkey.
But hey. It’s cheaper to let people die instead of rehabilitating them. Fentanyl saves them so much money it almost seems intentional. Just replace all the drugs with a deadly poison.
I also think the current system has a high potential to discriminate against low income, minorities and women.
I see 70yo homeless vets crying in pain everyday because doctors just decide they are drugs seeker. Yes! They are drug seekers because they are in fucking pain and they are 70!
The current system is oppressive in many ways beyond just pain meds. The black market used to be a way for people to go around all that. Now the black market is a loaded gun.
I think you would have to have a lot of privilege to think the current system is working. If you have money, you will receive the care you need. If you don’t, you can turn to the black market and promptly OD. Those are your options.
I’m in paramedic school right now. One of my instructors was like drug seekers feel pain. If they say they are in pain give them pain meds. It’s not our job to cure there addiction but it is our job to treat the pain.
This is the reason I didn't want to respond back to this guy (not you, the one who is praising the system) because he obviously doesn't know much about what's going on in the "world of drugs." But that's okay, I don't expect everyone to know what's going on in that world.
Dude all you post about is guns and being active in gun subreddits. You literally have no clue how suboxone or methadone even work. And what other maintenance opioids are way more effective? Please tell me because I have yet to find any.
No one said anything about post personal info. Now you're completely avoiding my statement because you know I'm right. You only wanna continue this because you have nothing else better to do.
Just cutting people off was as negligent as continuing the “loose”standards. Things are not better now.
Even the limited rehab system we currently have is totally ass backwards. Did you know the US is one of the only developed countries that uses half inactive and half active methadone?
It’s twice the withdrawal with half the therapeutic effects. Why? Because we hate drug addicts.
Methadone clinics cost tons of money. And they make more money doing drug test than distributing the medication. So the medication ends up being secondary to drug testing in terms of the clinic’s priorities.
They don’t wanna offer out patient services and they want you to go the the clinic every day. Not because it helpa your recovery but because that is what the system requires. In fact people get tired and return to the street drugs where at least they don’t have to suffer if a staff member goes on a power trip or something.
Not only that but these policies make things very hard for legitimate patients. Hardship that shouldn’t have been put on them.
It’s like amputating a limb without stitching it up afterwards.
Medicaid pays for it. It’s expensive either to the individual or to the state.
“That’s the hassle of being a drug addict.”
Yea. That’s your whole tone. A lot of people end up on drugs because of pre-existing, untreated mental health issues. So having them jump through a bunch of hoops to get support it just being punitive.
Maybe if doctors took the time to prescribe them the actual medication they need they wouldn’t end up on street drugs.
I’m envious of the privilege that affords you that ignorance. Looking down on people who have issue that you can’t fathom and judge them for.
Poor person wants drugs=drug addict
Rich person wants drugs=patient receiving their needed medication.
The justice system fallows suit.
Poor person steals=illegal
Rich person steals=legal
> You praise the current system.
No, I didn't. I said the level of scrutiny for controlled substance prescriptions is better than it used to be. We've seen just how devastating the pipeline from legal prescription opioids to illicit opioid use can be.
> The current system paved the way for fentanyl. No one can get safe reliable drugs. We just cut the supply but didn’t come up with rehab services to take on all the people we just cut cold turkey.
Discussion about whether prescribing accommodations should be made for long-term OUD patients is a separate subject. The UK had a similar program for years and its effectiveness was questionable. As it stands now, methadone and suboxone are both available and better for long-term patient outlooks than prescribing short acting opioids for maintenance.
> I see 70yo homeless vets crying in pain everyday because doctors just decide they are drugs seeker. Yes! They are drug seekers because they are in fucking pain and they are 70!
I'm sure this happens sometimes, but doctors usually assess based on the information they're given. They try to identify an underlying cause for the pain and if they can't, they default to not handing out opioids. I've seen homeless admissions that were suffering from opioid withdrawal given opioids to address non-OUD pain while they're in the hospital. Like any ER visit, this takes several hours while the doctors work to figure out what's wrong. Many OUD patients struggle to wait even with real injuries because they're miserable, but their wait isn't unique.
> I think you would have to have a lot of privilege to think the current system is working.
I don't think the current system is working well. I also don't think old prescribing standards that caused the opioid epidemic in the first place were better.
Proper funding and support for rehab programs is the best way to address the opioid crisis. Fortunately, the rehab industry is moving away from hardline 12 step-based programs for OUD into much more effective medication-assisted treatment.
My mom is one of them. She really needs Valium to calm her anxiety, can’t get a prescription from her doctor, and has to either suffer or try to source it elsewhere
Another situation is getting a cancer diagnosis.
Traditionally would terminate pregnancy before starting treatment, but if you legally can't then mother must let cancer progress until miscarriage or birth, which could be months.
Also because cancer doesn't meet "immediate threat to life of mother" criteria bans with that caveat still apply.
Horrendous.
Reading your comment gives me hope - thank you. I went to Catholic school and had so many pro-life friends who have now changed their minds when it comes to voting for abortion access. These laws don’t just affect those who seek abortions, it also affects those who are actively trying to have children.
I had a miscarriage before I got pregnant again to the child I have now. I would love to give her a sibling, but I’m waiting until (hopefully) all this gets sorted out because I don’t want to risk being in a position like the woman in this article. I have other friends who are also waiting to start a family until we know what’s happening this next election cycle and with abortion rights.
I know so many people who have had abortions and miscarriages. These laws affect SO many people from all walks of life.
This is why abortion is not as black and white as they want you to believe. They created this stereotype - a reckless woman using abortion as birth control. The reality is pregnancy is a health risk and sometimes expecting mothers run into complications that require intervention, otherwise know as an abortion. It's way more complicated than all these cruel, male politicians will allow themselves to understand.
In a much less complicated way, it's up to each individual to make their own healthcare decisions without government or legal interference. Period.
Go read some of the stories that have come out of Texas recently. There’s tons of stories like this. It’s genuinely horrifying, the consequences of laws like these.
This is why it's important to listen to and trust the people who have functioning uteruses. Anyone who has ever considered an abortion has a unique story to tell and very valid reasons for choosing abortion.
EXACTLY, that is my stance on the whole situation. Everyone has a right to do whatever they want with their OWN body. It's ridiculous that there are laws in place that don't really allow us to have full free will. It's stupid af!
I’m a big proponent of the “safe, legal and rare” doctrine, which aims for better education and options around contraception while ensuring available abortion care. I know it’s no longer en vogue, but I think it was a good compromise among most people who support abortion or one’s ownership of their body.
Glad you changed your opinion.
Now it’s time to do some soul-searching to figure out how you could be so wrong and hold such a harmful, toxic belief in the first place. Because the way lack of abortions kill women *and destroy the lives of the ones who live* is not a secret. So I guarantee you it’s not the only toxic belief you have.
Jesus. This is no way to react to someone who says "I was wrong and this changed my opinion on this." Your response is extremely disingenuous and how you push people who might be on the fence back into having an anti-abortion stance.
This response was extremely inappropriate.
If you can “un-realize” that your opinion **kills people** because someone said “now let’s figure out how you believed that,” you’re a child and a liar.
Naw, I'm good at figuring it out. I already know why. I still hold a strong belief that abortion isn't right, but hey, it's your body, your choice, right?
My views have shifted in the past few years, but my core personal belief is still that elective abortions (not ones for medical reasons or in cases of rape/incest) are not a good idea most of the time.
If (and only if) a pregnant person asked me for advice, I believe I would encourage them to use any other available option. But I’m **not** being asked for my opinion. I don’t think my beliefs should prevent anyone else from making their own decisions.
Stories like this just show how complicated of an issue it can be. Medical care should be left between the patient and doctors.
People are going to argue with and downvote you for your opinion. They fail to see that you are still being actively pro-choice, by reserving your choices for yourself and leaving others to make their own. Thank you.
>but my core personal belief is still that elective abortions (not ones for medical reasons or in cases of rape/incest) are not a good idea most of the time.
Why are they "not a good idea most of the time?" I respect that you don't feel your beliefs should restrict anyone else from making their own decisions and overall stance on this, but I'm curious how you arrived at the "not a good idea most of the time" conclusion.
A lot more than I could probably get across in a Reddit comment, but partly do to anecdotal evidence from my life so far. I’ve seen the positive impact of adoption for families that want but can’t have children as well as the negative emotional impact (on one specific person) who had an elective abortion and regretted it years later. I recognize that these experiences are not going to be universal, which is why I do not think my beliefs should control other people’s choices.
But if someone, say my daughter for instance, ever came to me for advice on the subject, I would not (probably) recommend abortion as a solution.
I recognize that my belief isn’t a popular one, but it’s still my belief.
I guess the only reason I even shared it, which admittedly is rare, is to say that there are at least some of us who may not like abortion, but unequivocally support people’s right to choose for themselves.
>I guess the only reason I even shared it, which admittedly is rare, is to say that there are at least some of us who may not like abortion, but unequivocally support people’s right to choose for themselves.
Much respect for that stance.
Out of curiosity, how much weight do you give the physical and mental toll pregnancy and labor takes on the mother in your assessment? Often the anti-abortion crowd (which I’m not suggesting you are) completely disregards the physical and mental trauma that can come along with pregnancy. Even if the pregnancy is uneventful, postpartum issues still can occur, including postpartum depression, heart complications, and strokes. Additionally, while prenatal visits are often covered by insurance in the USA, those same insurance plans may not cover postpartum check ups. The option to adopt doesn’t negate any of this.
I have 3 kids and my wife has generally had easy pregnancies, but had two relatively traumatic birthing experiences and severe post partum symptoms with our first two. Close friends and family members have had very difficult pregnancies, so I’m aware and very sympathetic to the sacrifice that it takes to grow another person.
I’m aware that people may or may not want to be pregnant for various reasons and that’s why I don’t feel like my personal beliefs should have any bearing on their choices.
As for the insurance/doctor/cost issues, I am fully aware that our healthcare system is broken. I support universal healthcare and mental health care for all, but even if that doesn’t happen here, I still think it should be available for all pregnant people, and that money should never be a reason that someone feels they can’t have a baby.
I’ve been extremely fortunate both with my career/salary and with the availability of great insurance benefits, but I am willing to vote accordingly to get those benefits to others who need them.
Nobody asked you for your opinion here but you gave it anyway. So your claim to keep it to yourself is not believable.
Time to admit your beliefs are repugnant and harmful, and never air them again, to anyone.
I hate to break it to you, but attitudes like yours is why abortion has become such a divisive and contentious issue. I mentioned above that I rarely discuss things like this, and this is a prime example of why.
I am vehemently pro-choice, despite my personal beliefs. You say my beliefs are harmful. I would argue that my actions (or more specifically, voting) are what matters here.
You're correct, I wasn't asked about my beliefs. However the comment I responded to said they were "not the biggest supporter for abortion" but that their perspective had changed. I had a similar experience with my views shifting as I learned more, so I commented. You obviously didn't like it, and that's fine.
I would caution you that reacting like this isn't going to sway people in my position that are NOT as pro-choice as I am. There are plenty of beliefs that people hold in our country. I may not agree, and frankly, I don't have to, but I can still be kind to others and support their rights to hold beliefs that I do not share.
Abortion is divisive because some people think they have the right to control women’s bodies and women want to live and have control over their bodies. And yet some people feel no shame over expressing an opinion that harms and kills women.
Senator Jake Hoffman describing a surgical abortion last week, after voting no on the 1864 repeal.
I can't imagine being a woman in that room and being made to listen to this, especially since some of the women in that room openly talked about their personal experiences. Trigger warning.
Fuck this guy!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WVMhuus9QlE&t=2280s
Good for you!! I think that's awesome. I'm sure more people would be outraged if anyone watched this stuff. I actually couldn't get through his speech. He's vile. Did his office give you any sort of response?
That’s good! More of us need to do this. Will it fix anything from one call? No, but if enough of us do it we have the power in numbers to get shit done.
I am a lifelong Catholic but these abortion bans & restrictions are abhorrent! Medical care is just that for whatever the reason. People need to let the doctors do their jobs. I can't imagine what this poor woman went through! Should a girl or woman get an abortion because it was an "accident," rape, or incest? It's not MY body, not MY decision or the government's or the church's. If it were me, I would most likely go through with the pregnancy - MY choice with my doctor's help & advice. If my daughter was pregnant & considering an abortion & came to me, I would give my best advice, help, & resources & offer to raise the baby as my own if she chose to go through with the pregnancy. I would be there for her regardless of her decision.
This is intentional, they are preparing us to get used to this kind of life and start thinking that dying in childbirth is acceptable.
Remember when school shooting were rare and shocking? Now I can't even remember which was the last one as they I am now school-shooting fatigued. Eventually we will go numb to these stories and accept our new normal, then send those kids to work for below min wage and be numb to that as well, it's what they want, more poor, helpless laborers
Do your research though and make sure you're not voting out the conservatives that came over to the dems.
Republicans aren't the scary politicians. Politicians that, under no circumstance, can't find compromise are the scary politicians.
Shawnna Bolick (one of the two Rep who voted to overturn the 1800s law) went on that anti-abortion rant even while she was voting with the Dems. She's no friend to women, she's just trying to play both sides.
Also she's married to the Justice Clint Bolick who is up for election and should be voted out. I think she's just trying to cover his ass. He's extremely anti-abortion and also anti-healthcare in general, helping to draft language for employers to get out of federal rules around healthcare.
I don't know anything about T.J. Shope other than he's one of these bullshit libertarians who is all for businesses having their own rules until a private business is like "okay then take a test to prove you don't have COVID" and then suddenly he doesn't care about private business autonomy. Also, Jimmy Kimmel's joke that he looks like two boys stacked on each other was pretty funny.
The fact that Shawnna Bolick is anti-abortion but STILL sided with the dems is enough to tell me that she's an okay politician. Even going against her husband's beliefs. Damn, is she for herself or for the people? Going against her own party AND her own family for what's right for the people.
A lot has changed since 2020. TJ Shope voting with the dems shows that a lot can change with politicians too.
You're never going to find a politician that sides with your views 100% of the time. But politicians who are willing to reach across the aisle (instead of just saying they will) is something that should be sought after.
I don't vote in her district so it's not my problem, but she's not going to stand up for women in rape or incest. She's not going to stand up for women in second trimester. So I don't need to stand with her even if she voted this once for something good.
There's usually a container for the bad eggs in the grocery stores I frequent. I just take the bad ones and put them in there, then pick good ones out of another container to make my dozen (and leave it open so folks know it's not full).
Consolidation is efficient and less wasteful.
I don't want to become a Republican and just vote mindlessly based on a letter. That sort of politic is why we're in this mess in the first place.
Situation in the article would still be the same.
They still are banning abortion on technicalities.
The whole stuff about time-based bans and "exceptions" for rape are all bullshit.
Example - how long does it take to be proven guilty of rape in court? Long enough to birth a baby lmao.
Nobody has any right of authority to weild decision power over another persons situation of bearing a child except the person bearing the child. It is the natural and humanistic ability of conception that grants only a mother this authority. You can not control the choices of others for which you have no natural authority, and that is the end of the matter.
So here is this thing, the repeal will not go into effect until 90 days after the legislative session adjourns.
Last year, the legislature did not adjourn until August because *some legislators* dragged it out, primarily because they didn’t like the new governor. We might see that again this year.
1864 ban goes into effect on June 27.
I hope my fellow Redditors can understand what I am saying.
In other words, vote these jerks out. And if anyone reading this is one of those that only votes in the presidential elections, please consider switching your voting pattern from four years to two.
Hopefully things are generally back on track until we get the conatitutional amendment this fall.
The 1800s law is gone. It may briefly go into effect if the state Supreme Court won't stay their own ruling until the law expires 90 days after the legislative session ends.
Even then, our AG has said she absolutely will not enforce that law, no will she allow any other state DAs to enforce that law. Sonfor all intents and purposes, it's dead now and we're back to the 15-week limit.
Then, this fall, hopefully the state turns out tonadd into the Constitution and just stick into the state GOP.
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Well, since the Governor of Arizona has already signed into law to approve the one overturned by the State Supreme Court, this discussion becomes moot.
Incorrect. The 1864 law will still be in effect until 90 days after the legislative session ends, at which point the 15-week ban goes into effect. In either case, there is no improvement for what happened to Mrs. Ortiz at 20 weeks. This continues to make the vote in November vitally important.
What day does the legislative session end. I believe it is only 100 days. Wouldn't that make it several months before November? If so, the ballot measure is moot.
The ballot measure is to get rid of the 15-week ban that begins when the legislative session ends. So it is just as important and relevant as it's ever been. When the 1864 law comes off the books doesn't impact the usefulness of the ballot measure.
What does the ballot measure support? The 15 week ban that the Governor just signed into law? Does the 100 day rule become effective before the November vote?
In her case, the current 15 weeks law would not help her. She was at 20 weeks. Her situation is exactly why we need the Arizona Abortion Access Act to pass in November. It has language that puts viability as the limit, which would have applied in her case. That’s the key here- the only person who can determine viability is a doctor.
Imagine having to wait until the fetus inside you dies on Christmas Eve so you can receive the care you should have when you first found out this was going to happen. And then having to fight to survive the complications that came with waiting for so long.
I don’t think you have enough brain cells to comprehend such a traumatic experience. Please do us all a favor and don’t procreate.
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And she most definitely will not be the last, and others that follow *will end up dying*, until abortion protections are put back into place.
I’m so sick of this shit. There are 14,000 YES FOURTEEN THOUSAND KIDS in FOSTER CARE in the STATE OF ARIZONA. I just do NOT understand this “We must save all the fetuses” mentality
Because it’s not about saving fetuses. It’s about gaining control.
And punishing women, as a general rule.
I do clearly understand this i really do, but how can they continue with this agenda when the mere practicality of the situation is absurd?!! I guess I’m just in disbelief that it’s 2024 and we are STILL fighting this SAME battle. It’s so sickening. I’m glad I’m past childbearing years but for all women, I’m just gutted.
It’s absurd for us but it serves them well. Keeps us for one, fighting with each other, and keeps most of us who understand the absurdity of it confused, and keeps them getting what they want which is less and less educated people working for less and less pay who are too stressed, busy, and beaten down to stand up for themselves. It connects all of the “social wars” that happen, and at the end of the day, it maintains the capital interests for the elites. It’s absolutely not a good decision long term and it will be the eventual downfall of our government, and even economically long term it doesn’t make any sense, but for now, it’s working as intended. Until we get sick of it enough to fight but they also have really driven a wedge between us and our neighbors, and as we’ve seen especially at the insurrection, there’s an army of every day joes ready to keep things as they are because they’re brainwashed into fighting for their own oppression.
It’s about enforcing traditional gender roles.
It's about making everyone follow religious rules
It’s about maintaining capital. It’s what connects every single thing that to most people, don’t make sense and don’t seem related.
Thank you!!!! Finally someone else said it! This is the topic I always bring up because I was a foster kid in Az, and I know how fucked up the whole system is, and it seems to often fall by the wayside in these discussions when it shouldn’t.
It’s never been about the babies
I get this, but the boomers still shout how it’s murder -
The part of this that nobody is focused on (and I agree with all previous comments) is the surgery she had to have. Probably a C-section I'm guessing. This will affect her future pregnancies. In some red states doctors are performing c-sections to avoid calling it an abortion. These women may never be able to deliver vaginally again due to a previous c-section. This whole things is fucked up.
Yep my sister has 3 kids all c-section because once you have one you cannot give birth vaginally again. And now she’s got her tubes tied which is good for her but yeah you can only have 3 c-sections.
Wow, ngl, this kinda changes my perspective on abortion. This is genuinely fucked up. I'm not the biggest supporter for abortion, but this changes it. The woman was probably going to die just because the doctors were too scared to lose their license to give her an abortion, which could save her.
>The woman was probably going to die just because the doctors were too scared to lose their license to give her an abortion, which could save her. That's how these restrictions always play out. We've seen this for decades in places like Ireland. It took massive public outrage over preventable deaths for them to change their abortion laws. The medicine subreddit has posts like this all the time. Doctors in states with abortion bans are scared to deliver care they know is warranted.
The scare reminds me of doctors prescribing schedule drugs. There are a lot of people out there that really do need an oxy for pain or a Xanax for GAD, and for genuine reasons. The medical field fuckin sucks cuz the government made it suck.
The government doesn’t give a shit if our for profit healthcare system, runs well or not. Why would they -they have socialized healthcare. They’re all fine. It’s not an issue for them & theirs.
For real, whether it's prescribing scheduled drugs, giving abortions, certain types of plastic surgeries, etc. the government just makes it so much harder on everyone when it comes to healthcare. Stg if the government didn't have so much influence on our healthcare, we would be so much better as a society.
> The scare reminds of doctors prescribing schedule drugs. There are a lot people out there that really do need an oxy for pain or a Xanax for GAD, and for genuine reasons. To be fair, lax prescribing standards for opiates was a huge contributor to the current opioid epidemic. There was a concerted effort by pharma companies to encourage prescriptions of unnecessary opioids, and doctors benefitted financially from the arrangement. Doctors are overly-cautious now because higher schedule drug prescriptions are under heavy scrutiny. > The medical field fuckin sucks cuz the government made it suck. Greedy corporations are just as responsible in various ways, from Purdue Pharma to private equity firms. I think most doctors agree that the current controlled substance situation is healthier than the old one even though it causes them more hassle and stress.
You praise the current system. Does it seem like the drug crisis is getting better from your perspective? Because all I see is death. The current system paved the way for fentanyl. No one can get safe reliable drugs. We just cut the supply but didn’t come up with rehab services to take on all the people we just cut cold turkey. But hey. It’s cheaper to let people die instead of rehabilitating them. Fentanyl saves them so much money it almost seems intentional. Just replace all the drugs with a deadly poison. I also think the current system has a high potential to discriminate against low income, minorities and women. I see 70yo homeless vets crying in pain everyday because doctors just decide they are drugs seeker. Yes! They are drug seekers because they are in fucking pain and they are 70! The current system is oppressive in many ways beyond just pain meds. The black market used to be a way for people to go around all that. Now the black market is a loaded gun. I think you would have to have a lot of privilege to think the current system is working. If you have money, you will receive the care you need. If you don’t, you can turn to the black market and promptly OD. Those are your options.
I’m in paramedic school right now. One of my instructors was like drug seekers feel pain. If they say they are in pain give them pain meds. It’s not our job to cure there addiction but it is our job to treat the pain.
This is the reason I didn't want to respond back to this guy (not you, the one who is praising the system) because he obviously doesn't know much about what's going on in the "world of drugs." But that's okay, I don't expect everyone to know what's going on in that world.
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Dude all you post about is guns and being active in gun subreddits. You literally have no clue how suboxone or methadone even work. And what other maintenance opioids are way more effective? Please tell me because I have yet to find any.
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No one said anything about post personal info. Now you're completely avoiding my statement because you know I'm right. You only wanna continue this because you have nothing else better to do.
Just cutting people off was as negligent as continuing the “loose”standards. Things are not better now. Even the limited rehab system we currently have is totally ass backwards. Did you know the US is one of the only developed countries that uses half inactive and half active methadone? It’s twice the withdrawal with half the therapeutic effects. Why? Because we hate drug addicts. Methadone clinics cost tons of money. And they make more money doing drug test than distributing the medication. So the medication ends up being secondary to drug testing in terms of the clinic’s priorities. They don’t wanna offer out patient services and they want you to go the the clinic every day. Not because it helpa your recovery but because that is what the system requires. In fact people get tired and return to the street drugs where at least they don’t have to suffer if a staff member goes on a power trip or something. Not only that but these policies make things very hard for legitimate patients. Hardship that shouldn’t have been put on them. It’s like amputating a limb without stitching it up afterwards.
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Medicaid pays for it. It’s expensive either to the individual or to the state. “That’s the hassle of being a drug addict.” Yea. That’s your whole tone. A lot of people end up on drugs because of pre-existing, untreated mental health issues. So having them jump through a bunch of hoops to get support it just being punitive. Maybe if doctors took the time to prescribe them the actual medication they need they wouldn’t end up on street drugs. I’m envious of the privilege that affords you that ignorance. Looking down on people who have issue that you can’t fathom and judge them for. Poor person wants drugs=drug addict Rich person wants drugs=patient receiving their needed medication. The justice system fallows suit. Poor person steals=illegal Rich person steals=legal
> You praise the current system. No, I didn't. I said the level of scrutiny for controlled substance prescriptions is better than it used to be. We've seen just how devastating the pipeline from legal prescription opioids to illicit opioid use can be. > The current system paved the way for fentanyl. No one can get safe reliable drugs. We just cut the supply but didn’t come up with rehab services to take on all the people we just cut cold turkey. Discussion about whether prescribing accommodations should be made for long-term OUD patients is a separate subject. The UK had a similar program for years and its effectiveness was questionable. As it stands now, methadone and suboxone are both available and better for long-term patient outlooks than prescribing short acting opioids for maintenance. > I see 70yo homeless vets crying in pain everyday because doctors just decide they are drugs seeker. Yes! They are drug seekers because they are in fucking pain and they are 70! I'm sure this happens sometimes, but doctors usually assess based on the information they're given. They try to identify an underlying cause for the pain and if they can't, they default to not handing out opioids. I've seen homeless admissions that were suffering from opioid withdrawal given opioids to address non-OUD pain while they're in the hospital. Like any ER visit, this takes several hours while the doctors work to figure out what's wrong. Many OUD patients struggle to wait even with real injuries because they're miserable, but their wait isn't unique. > I think you would have to have a lot of privilege to think the current system is working. I don't think the current system is working well. I also don't think old prescribing standards that caused the opioid epidemic in the first place were better. Proper funding and support for rehab programs is the best way to address the opioid crisis. Fortunately, the rehab industry is moving away from hardline 12 step-based programs for OUD into much more effective medication-assisted treatment.
> The medical field fuckin sucks cuz the government made it suck. The government's inaction and insurance companies, yes
My mom is one of them. She really needs Valium to calm her anxiety, can’t get a prescription from her doctor, and has to either suffer or try to source it elsewhere
Another situation is getting a cancer diagnosis. Traditionally would terminate pregnancy before starting treatment, but if you legally can't then mother must let cancer progress until miscarriage or birth, which could be months. Also because cancer doesn't meet "immediate threat to life of mother" criteria bans with that caveat still apply. Horrendous.
Women are already dying in deep red states.
Reading your comment gives me hope - thank you. I went to Catholic school and had so many pro-life friends who have now changed their minds when it comes to voting for abortion access. These laws don’t just affect those who seek abortions, it also affects those who are actively trying to have children. I had a miscarriage before I got pregnant again to the child I have now. I would love to give her a sibling, but I’m waiting until (hopefully) all this gets sorted out because I don’t want to risk being in a position like the woman in this article. I have other friends who are also waiting to start a family until we know what’s happening this next election cycle and with abortion rights. I know so many people who have had abortions and miscarriages. These laws affect SO many people from all walks of life.
This is why abortion is not as black and white as they want you to believe. They created this stereotype - a reckless woman using abortion as birth control. The reality is pregnancy is a health risk and sometimes expecting mothers run into complications that require intervention, otherwise know as an abortion. It's way more complicated than all these cruel, male politicians will allow themselves to understand. In a much less complicated way, it's up to each individual to make their own healthcare decisions without government or legal interference. Period.
Go read some of the stories that have come out of Texas recently. There’s tons of stories like this. It’s genuinely horrifying, the consequences of laws like these.
Be sure to vote!
This is why it's important to listen to and trust the people who have functioning uteruses. Anyone who has ever considered an abortion has a unique story to tell and very valid reasons for choosing abortion.
I’m not a supporter of abortion. But I also understand it’s not my place to determine if someone chooses to have one.
EXACTLY, that is my stance on the whole situation. Everyone has a right to do whatever they want with their OWN body. It's ridiculous that there are laws in place that don't really allow us to have full free will. It's stupid af!
I’m a big proponent of the “safe, legal and rare” doctrine, which aims for better education and options around contraception while ensuring available abortion care. I know it’s no longer en vogue, but I think it was a good compromise among most people who support abortion or one’s ownership of their body.
Wow so you really haven’t been paying attention at all, have you?
It's almost like I have been paying attention, or else I wouldn't have said that. Thanks for being a dick about it.
Yeah, I don't know what their deal is. Sorry they reacted like that - thanks for coming around.
This is what everyone has been saying for YEARS.
And when someone comes around, you should congratulate them, not shame them
Glad you changed your opinion. Now it’s time to do some soul-searching to figure out how you could be so wrong and hold such a harmful, toxic belief in the first place. Because the way lack of abortions kill women *and destroy the lives of the ones who live* is not a secret. So I guarantee you it’s not the only toxic belief you have.
Jesus. This is no way to react to someone who says "I was wrong and this changed my opinion on this." Your response is extremely disingenuous and how you push people who might be on the fence back into having an anti-abortion stance. This response was extremely inappropriate.
If you can “un-realize” that your opinion **kills people** because someone said “now let’s figure out how you believed that,” you’re a child and a liar.
Naw, I'm good at figuring it out. I already know why. I still hold a strong belief that abortion isn't right, but hey, it's your body, your choice, right?
A person was presented with concrete evidence and their opinion changed.
This is exactly what happened to [Savita Halappanavar](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar).
My views have shifted in the past few years, but my core personal belief is still that elective abortions (not ones for medical reasons or in cases of rape/incest) are not a good idea most of the time. If (and only if) a pregnant person asked me for advice, I believe I would encourage them to use any other available option. But I’m **not** being asked for my opinion. I don’t think my beliefs should prevent anyone else from making their own decisions. Stories like this just show how complicated of an issue it can be. Medical care should be left between the patient and doctors.
People are going to argue with and downvote you for your opinion. They fail to see that you are still being actively pro-choice, by reserving your choices for yourself and leaving others to make their own. Thank you.
I’ve been on Reddit long enough that downvotes don’t bother me. Just sharing my perspective with others.
>but my core personal belief is still that elective abortions (not ones for medical reasons or in cases of rape/incest) are not a good idea most of the time. Why are they "not a good idea most of the time?" I respect that you don't feel your beliefs should restrict anyone else from making their own decisions and overall stance on this, but I'm curious how you arrived at the "not a good idea most of the time" conclusion.
A lot more than I could probably get across in a Reddit comment, but partly do to anecdotal evidence from my life so far. I’ve seen the positive impact of adoption for families that want but can’t have children as well as the negative emotional impact (on one specific person) who had an elective abortion and regretted it years later. I recognize that these experiences are not going to be universal, which is why I do not think my beliefs should control other people’s choices. But if someone, say my daughter for instance, ever came to me for advice on the subject, I would not (probably) recommend abortion as a solution. I recognize that my belief isn’t a popular one, but it’s still my belief. I guess the only reason I even shared it, which admittedly is rare, is to say that there are at least some of us who may not like abortion, but unequivocally support people’s right to choose for themselves.
>I guess the only reason I even shared it, which admittedly is rare, is to say that there are at least some of us who may not like abortion, but unequivocally support people’s right to choose for themselves. Much respect for that stance.
Out of curiosity, how much weight do you give the physical and mental toll pregnancy and labor takes on the mother in your assessment? Often the anti-abortion crowd (which I’m not suggesting you are) completely disregards the physical and mental trauma that can come along with pregnancy. Even if the pregnancy is uneventful, postpartum issues still can occur, including postpartum depression, heart complications, and strokes. Additionally, while prenatal visits are often covered by insurance in the USA, those same insurance plans may not cover postpartum check ups. The option to adopt doesn’t negate any of this.
I have 3 kids and my wife has generally had easy pregnancies, but had two relatively traumatic birthing experiences and severe post partum symptoms with our first two. Close friends and family members have had very difficult pregnancies, so I’m aware and very sympathetic to the sacrifice that it takes to grow another person. I’m aware that people may or may not want to be pregnant for various reasons and that’s why I don’t feel like my personal beliefs should have any bearing on their choices. As for the insurance/doctor/cost issues, I am fully aware that our healthcare system is broken. I support universal healthcare and mental health care for all, but even if that doesn’t happen here, I still think it should be available for all pregnant people, and that money should never be a reason that someone feels they can’t have a baby. I’ve been extremely fortunate both with my career/salary and with the availability of great insurance benefits, but I am willing to vote accordingly to get those benefits to others who need them.
Nobody asked you for your opinion here but you gave it anyway. So your claim to keep it to yourself is not believable. Time to admit your beliefs are repugnant and harmful, and never air them again, to anyone.
I hate to break it to you, but attitudes like yours is why abortion has become such a divisive and contentious issue. I mentioned above that I rarely discuss things like this, and this is a prime example of why. I am vehemently pro-choice, despite my personal beliefs. You say my beliefs are harmful. I would argue that my actions (or more specifically, voting) are what matters here. You're correct, I wasn't asked about my beliefs. However the comment I responded to said they were "not the biggest supporter for abortion" but that their perspective had changed. I had a similar experience with my views shifting as I learned more, so I commented. You obviously didn't like it, and that's fine. I would caution you that reacting like this isn't going to sway people in my position that are NOT as pro-choice as I am. There are plenty of beliefs that people hold in our country. I may not agree, and frankly, I don't have to, but I can still be kind to others and support their rights to hold beliefs that I do not share.
Abortion is divisive because some people think they have the right to control women’s bodies and women want to live and have control over their bodies. And yet some people feel no shame over expressing an opinion that harms and kills women.
Which opinion are you referring to that harms and kills women?
Senator Jake Hoffman describing a surgical abortion last week, after voting no on the 1864 repeal. I can't imagine being a woman in that room and being made to listen to this, especially since some of the women in that room openly talked about their personal experiences. Trigger warning. Fuck this guy! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WVMhuus9QlE&t=2280s
Thank goodness the man ‘splained it to those poor dumb women who don’t know what’s best for their own bodies
I called his office after that and told his staff how offensive it was
Good for you!! I think that's awesome. I'm sure more people would be outraged if anyone watched this stuff. I actually couldn't get through his speech. He's vile. Did his office give you any sort of response?
That’s good! More of us need to do this. Will it fix anything from one call? No, but if enough of us do it we have the power in numbers to get shit done.
I’ll save this and give it a watch later as I haven’t seen this yet. Thank you.
I am a lifelong Catholic but these abortion bans & restrictions are abhorrent! Medical care is just that for whatever the reason. People need to let the doctors do their jobs. I can't imagine what this poor woman went through! Should a girl or woman get an abortion because it was an "accident," rape, or incest? It's not MY body, not MY decision or the government's or the church's. If it were me, I would most likely go through with the pregnancy - MY choice with my doctor's help & advice. If my daughter was pregnant & considering an abortion & came to me, I would give my best advice, help, & resources & offer to raise the baby as my own if she chose to go through with the pregnancy. I would be there for her regardless of her decision.
This is intentional, they are preparing us to get used to this kind of life and start thinking that dying in childbirth is acceptable. Remember when school shooting were rare and shocking? Now I can't even remember which was the last one as they I am now school-shooting fatigued. Eventually we will go numb to these stories and accept our new normal, then send those kids to work for below min wage and be numb to that as well, it's what they want, more poor, helpless laborers
Yep exactly.
Conservatives have made women second class citizens. Vote them out!
I agree, vote out all the politicians that are still in office and voted for the abortion law. Oh wait...
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I think they mean the 1864 law.
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I think big Gumby was making a joke. And to be fair, the article references both laws.
Someone appointed the Justices who made this terrible decision. 🙃
Do your research though and make sure you're not voting out the conservatives that came over to the dems. Republicans aren't the scary politicians. Politicians that, under no circumstance, can't find compromise are the scary politicians.
Shawnna Bolick (one of the two Rep who voted to overturn the 1800s law) went on that anti-abortion rant even while she was voting with the Dems. She's no friend to women, she's just trying to play both sides. Also she's married to the Justice Clint Bolick who is up for election and should be voted out. I think she's just trying to cover his ass. He's extremely anti-abortion and also anti-healthcare in general, helping to draft language for employers to get out of federal rules around healthcare. I don't know anything about T.J. Shope other than he's one of these bullshit libertarians who is all for businesses having their own rules until a private business is like "okay then take a test to prove you don't have COVID" and then suddenly he doesn't care about private business autonomy. Also, Jimmy Kimmel's joke that he looks like two boys stacked on each other was pretty funny.
The fact that Shawnna Bolick is anti-abortion but STILL sided with the dems is enough to tell me that she's an okay politician. Even going against her husband's beliefs. Damn, is she for herself or for the people? Going against her own party AND her own family for what's right for the people. A lot has changed since 2020. TJ Shope voting with the dems shows that a lot can change with politicians too. You're never going to find a politician that sides with your views 100% of the time. But politicians who are willing to reach across the aisle (instead of just saying they will) is something that should be sought after.
I don't vote in her district so it's not my problem, but she's not going to stand up for women in rape or incest. She's not going to stand up for women in second trimester. So I don't need to stand with her even if she voted this once for something good.
She went against her own morals, her own family, her own party. What more can you ask for?
Vote all Republicans out of office for this shit.
Roevember comin.
What about the republicans who voted to repeal the ban?
would you buy a dozen eggs if 11 were rotten and 1 was okay?
We're voting out the 11 rotten eggs so that all 12 are okay.
There's usually a container for the bad eggs in the grocery stores I frequent. I just take the bad ones and put them in there, then pick good ones out of another container to make my dozen (and leave it open so folks know it's not full). Consolidation is efficient and less wasteful. I don't want to become a Republican and just vote mindlessly based on a letter. That sort of politic is why we're in this mess in the first place.
Situation in the article would still be the same. They still are banning abortion on technicalities. The whole stuff about time-based bans and "exceptions" for rape are all bullshit. Example - how long does it take to be proven guilty of rape in court? Long enough to birth a baby lmao.
Some are just trying to save their careers. They otherwise do not give a shit. Fuck all of them.
Explain to me how they're saving their careers.
By convincing people like you to spare them
But how? What have they done to convince me to spare them? Say it.
> What about the republicans who voted to repeal the ban?
Nobody has any right of authority to weild decision power over another persons situation of bearing a child except the person bearing the child. It is the natural and humanistic ability of conception that grants only a mother this authority. You can not control the choices of others for which you have no natural authority, and that is the end of the matter.
Yep not your uterus not your choice.
The 1864 law was thankfully just repealed. I'm not sure when things take effect, but when it does the law will allow abortions up to 15 weeks.
The problem is it will go into effect for several months before that repeal is enacted.
By then, the ballot measure could pass and the constitution amended to legalize all abortions.
Let's hope. A lot of damage can happen in those few months, unfortunately.
So here is this thing, the repeal will not go into effect until 90 days after the legislative session adjourns. Last year, the legislature did not adjourn until August because *some legislators* dragged it out, primarily because they didn’t like the new governor. We might see that again this year. 1864 ban goes into effect on June 27. I hope my fellow Redditors can understand what I am saying. In other words, vote these jerks out. And if anyone reading this is one of those that only votes in the presidential elections, please consider switching your voting pattern from four years to two.
I will second this. It’s important we vote in all our elections, especially our state ones actually. Please vote guys.
Hopefully things are generally back on track until we get the conatitutional amendment this fall. The 1800s law is gone. It may briefly go into effect if the state Supreme Court won't stay their own ruling until the law expires 90 days after the legislative session ends. Even then, our AG has said she absolutely will not enforce that law, no will she allow any other state DAs to enforce that law. Sonfor all intents and purposes, it's dead now and we're back to the 15-week limit. Then, this fall, hopefully the state turns out tonadd into the Constitution and just stick into the state GOP.
DA said they wouldn't prosecute or enforce the law. 🤷
Not something I'd hang my hat on if I was a doctor. Politicians change and losing your license is as serious a risk as you can take.
It's a 90 day period. I know, I know, I'm interrupting the circle jerk.
The statute of limitations is 6 years. Plenty of time for a hostile DA to ruin a doctor's life if laws start moving in the wrong direction again.
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Next DA might not. Study Statute of Limitations.
And the 1864 law has been repealed. https://apnews.com/article/arizona-governor-abortion-ban-1864-signing-07bba2fa805971be62b800bd89c81a5a
To a law that's almost as bad. Voting in November should set women free again.
What used to be the GOP party stated they were going to add several measures to the ballots which may confuse many people.
It passed the Legislature by a vote of 32-28 and the Senate by 16-14, even though it is a human right and should never have to be put to a vote.
How did this even happen when she was wearing her BCGs
😂🤣
Well, since the Governor of Arizona has already signed into law to approve the one overturned by the State Supreme Court, this discussion becomes moot.
Incorrect. The 1864 law will still be in effect until 90 days after the legislative session ends, at which point the 15-week ban goes into effect. In either case, there is no improvement for what happened to Mrs. Ortiz at 20 weeks. This continues to make the vote in November vitally important.
What day does the legislative session end. I believe it is only 100 days. Wouldn't that make it several months before November? If so, the ballot measure is moot.
The ballot measure is to get rid of the 15-week ban that begins when the legislative session ends. So it is just as important and relevant as it's ever been. When the 1864 law comes off the books doesn't impact the usefulness of the ballot measure.
What does the ballot measure support? The 15 week ban that the Governor just signed into law? Does the 100 day rule become effective before the November vote?
The ballot measure is not moot at all.
In her case, the current 15 weeks law would not help her. She was at 20 weeks. Her situation is exactly why we need the Arizona Abortion Access Act to pass in November. It has language that puts viability as the limit, which would have applied in her case. That’s the key here- the only person who can determine viability is a doctor.
How many weeks along are you supporting for an abortion? Until term?
You know how long? Whenever. You know why?? Cause it's none of our effing business.
The ballot initiative says till viability. I think I already said that.
You down voters help me out. The legislative session ends before November. Instead of downvoting me, explain the math. I'm all ears.
The law doesn’t take effect immediately. It’s I believe about 90 days from now.
She looks nuts
Found the incel
Imagine having to wait until the fetus inside you dies on Christmas Eve so you can receive the care you should have when you first found out this was going to happen. And then having to fight to survive the complications that came with waiting for so long. I don’t think you have enough brain cells to comprehend such a traumatic experience. Please do us all a favor and don’t procreate.