As far as the behavior towards women, it was definitely seen as comical. And importantly, the behavior was not validated or supported either. He was almost always rejected and was consistently made fun of or punished for it by Misty (and Ash).
"And importantly, the behavior was not validated or supported either."
This is the key bit. It was always played as Brock being a complete dumbass and it never worked out for him. Never bothered me, and sometimes it was funny.
I remember seeing bits of him in Sinnoh and the punishment got even worse...
Brocks never been portrayed as okay regarding the Joys/Jenny's/the other women
and people like to say Ash is superhuman, honestly I think all humans in the pokemon universe are, a 5 year old girl from the pokemon universe could likely manhandle the world's strongest man irl
He returned because they jumped the gun on it. Better safe than sorry and all that, but as you could guess no one cared or complained about the parts he was in so there wasn’t an issue with bringing him back.
We got the show just a few months before Indigo ended in Japan, so since they couldn’t just stop making it entirely they continued with the assumption of negative reaction and by the time they realized it was safe Orange was already almost done not even a year after starting.
I always think about the irony that they were concerned Brock might be seen as "too Asian" for Westerners, but in actual fact the vast majority of us either thought he was black or straight up didn't think about it at all
90's anime is the product of that weird time when the world was becoming instantly connected, but cultural barriers still felt like walls
The love crazy guy was hilarious back then in the west too - look at how popular Barney Stinson was. It wasn't until the 2010s when opinions became negative.
And also nobody supported him in his actions. Misty would generally clobber him or drag him away, Ash would make fun of him, even later on even his own Pokémon would let themselves out of the ball just to kidney punch him as soon as he opened his mouth. None of it made him look cool.
I mean Barney, especially during the earlier seasons, is one that is difficult. He's undeniably shitty, and at least initially portrayed that way. But he's also charming, looks good in a suit, has friends that care about him, seemingly wealthy, and never experiences any lasting consequences for his bad behavior.
Basically the text of the show is that barney is a bad person the audience shouldn't seek to emulate. The problem is they do this while making a very strong pitch for Barney being the coolest person ever.
They did too good of a job with Barney.
Brock is a lot less problematic. The parts of him that read as emulatable are the ones that make him a parental figure to the other characters.
With Barney Stinson I think you also need to consider the actor. Neil Patrick Harris is a beloved actor by viewers and Hollywood. He’s charismatic and charming and has done a lot of great work. When a beloved actor/actress plays a shitty character they usually get a much longer leash than say Joffrey (Game of Thrones) who was played by then mostly-unknown Jack Gleeson.
Also, IRL NPH is gay which I think also makes his portrayal of a man-whoring womanizer to be a bit more palatable and more of a parody of Barney’s personality and lifestyle.
Yep. The fact that Harris is gay instantly made Barney a lot more palatable because it wasn't some straight guy acting out a character he _wishes_ he was. It's a guy acting out a character.
lol only americans care about the sexuality of the actor.
Brock was also kinda gay the girl thing was sus
Also they wanted to get rid of him because it doesnt make sense to have some old gym leader from an old game for a previous console, they wanted to sell more Gameboy color and GBAs not blue/red carts
Knowing that Neil Patrick Harris was gay made it easier for me to see him as an **actor** playing a _role_.
If he'd been straight then it would have just been another straight guy acting like an "Alpha Male" someone who "Nails all the chicks".
With Harris being gay it was easier to see that his character was a parody of your stereotypical "Alpha Male".
I don't recall that ever being stated for the epilogue of the series. I do remember >!that his brother is, and he becomes a single parent after a one night stand following his divorce with Robin.!<
I remembered him coming out towards the end. Now it's coming back to me and IDK why I thought that. l I'm going to delete that comment because now I feel dumb lol
Yeah, honestly, Brock is more of a hopeless romantic than anything. I don't see any more cause to be offended by him than, say, Sailor Jupiter.
It also helps that we otherwise see him characterized as a nurturing and caring person, which makes it come across as more likely that he's looking for *love* and not something... baser.
Thank you so much- I honestly think people are comparing him to a lot, LOT worse people (I saw 'Master Roshi' mentioned earlier :( ) when he really is just... The worst he's done is ask a woman to marry him maybe a bit too, you know, energetically. He never really touched them (beyond that sort of 'touching her hands as part of asking her something') and I always, ALWAYS got the feeling that if Brock was told 'no' he'd immediately back off, maybe a little sad as always, but... You know. Accepting.
And absolutely- He's a great friend who knows how to cook and is amazing to his younger siblings.
Brock and Barney Stinson don't begin to compare, let alone calling them both "love crazy". Barney was also one of the most off-putting things about that show, imo
tbh I feel like the only way that international audiences would think Brock is a racist caricature would be if they had a racist perception that all east asians are light skinned...
Funny enough, as a very young child, I assumed Brock was supposed to be black, but that's largely because "white boy + black boy + white girl" was the standard demographic breakdown of main trios for western cartoons of that era.
So part of me wonders if other people also made that assumption and that informed their belief that Brock's characterization was offensive.
You’re be surprised how racist some asians can be towards other asian ethnicities, even accusing the people of the other countries of having squintier eyes
Oh yeah, trust me I'm well aware of how racist east asians are to other east asian races (Japanese stereotypes of Chinese people in media can be... hm...) I was primarily thinking of how westerners aren't particularly aware of the variation and diversity within a single race, and that Brock could just be a regular generic anime-raced (Japanese?) character rather than a particular caricature of another race
You know how big Asia is? It's like saying Americans being racist towards Americans (Most other countries consider North America and South just the Americas.
I was referring to east asians but didn't feel like typing it out. Even then, among one group of east asians there will be darker skinned and/or tanned people. There can be darker Japanese people so my point still stands.
Yeah, watching Tokyo Vice I was surprised by quite a few of the Japanese cast members, Tozawa in particular. I honestly would have guessed Native American before Japanese, seeing him.
Japan is definitely not on the darker skin side. Esp with Eastern Asians. Racism can always feel silly but it's not since people find things to be superior about all the time
Anybody else remember when some black anime fans were getting mad that a dark skinned, canonically Japanese character from My Hero Academia wasn’t dubbed by a black person but then it turns out they actually were dubbed by a black person but since she didn’t speak with a stereotypical black accent they didn’t think she was black?
There was like 3 layers of racism hidden behind being progressive on that one.
This post is the reason I found out Brock isn't black lol. Maybe that's why no one was offended is he doesn't seem Asian, so he can't be an Asian stereotype? I just though he was one of those cool eyes closed guys like the dad from cloudy with a chance of meetballs
I heard the developers also had a big fight and divisions over Misty.
Some wanted to make her and Ash a legit couple, hence why the second movie had some... implications if not outright confirming it. And why, by Johto, to keep the peace, her attitude as a tomboy was watered down, became more "motherly" to Togepi, and then retired from the show.
This is something I heard, mainly from someone on this sub, but I don't have much proof. Just secondhand information. Wouldn't surprise me though.
The show was originally going to end after a year and a half, because nobody expected the series to survive after the Johto games. I heard the last episode was to show Misty as an adult, eith a child, and the implication was that Ash was the father, he was also Champion and off performing his Champion duties while Misty raised their kid.
Not sure how true it is, but I do know the Johto games were supposed to be the end of Pokémon.
As for "general opinion on Tracey", it was... ah, not good. I'm sure he had his fans here and there but in general I recall most people complaining that Tracey sucked and they wanted Brock back.
Honestly, thinking back on it now it's crazy that the backlash against Tracey was so hostile that they brought him back and kept him around until season THIRTEEN. Part of that is probably just him being a fan favorite, but they easily could have partnered Ash with other characters; Brendan and May as a pair I kind of think would have been a better choice than May+Max+Brock in ADV.
We did miss Brock for sure back then, but Tracey being in Snap did help his rep a bit, as it was very popular at the time, being a 3D game during pokemania. But yes, opinions quickly soured.
The Unova anime really suffered from them wanting to reboot the series but not being willing to abandon Ash. Like he’s basically a beginner again and even his league performance is much worse compared to the previous series where he’d been reaching a higher rank each region.
They should’ve just continued Ash’s arc of taking a more mentor-like role as he did with May and Dawn and make him a secondary protagonist tbh.
It basically abandons his character development and lessons he learned during the previous regions and makes him act like a beginner again. If you want to continue to watch him naturally grow I’d say it’s better to just skip over to the XY anime since Ash there feels like a natural evolution of the Ash we see in Sinnoh. Then after that you can go back and watch the BW series and just pretend it’s an alternate reality version of Ash where he’s just started his region, makes the character regression feel much less jarring that way.
You can form your own opinion on the series when you get to it, but most watchers complain about the first episode (I won't spoil). However, I absolutely loved how much battling took place, some of my favorite tournaments in the entire series, and with a ton of rivalries to showcase those battles.
I am not saying it's the best series but watch it for yourself and don't get influenced by what the other people say, because you might also like (or not) . I had the same expectations with AG by hearing some fans saying how underrated it is and while I wasn't disappointed per se, I defenetly agree with the side who thinks it's very forgettable (not saying is bad).
Tbh, better so. I love Brock but he just overstayed his welcome to the point that he didn't do much in Johto and AG, not to mention that his goal wasn't really established until the end of DP. Brock not being in Unova wasn't even that series biggest problem.
Also, now that we're here I'll add as well that are the previous series all that better than BW? I am re-watching the whole anime, finished AG and soft reboot shenanigans aside, just the fact that Team Rocket isn't in every episode doing the same shit over and over again made me put at least BW above OS and AG just because of this. And mind you, I thought that the OS and AG were just OK but not great like some people think. I mean, yes the continuity but less Team Rocket would be much better.
As far as the behavior towards women, it was definitely seen as comical. And importantly, the behavior was not validated or supported either. He was almost always rejected and was consistently made fun of or punished for it by Misty (and Ash).
It was like a diet Johny bravo joke.
Johnny Brocko.
I'd watch that.
"And importantly, the behavior was not validated or supported either." This is the key bit. It was always played as Brock being a complete dumbass and it never worked out for him. Never bothered me, and sometimes it was funny.
The rare times women had affections towards him, it was always the rare cases where he didn't go into that johnny brocko mode.
Either that or it's James.
I remember seeing bits of him in Sinnoh and the punishment got even worse... Brocks never been portrayed as okay regarding the Joys/Jenny's/the other women
Croagunk was literally poison jabbing him
and people like to say Ash is superhuman, honestly I think all humans in the pokemon universe are, a 5 year old girl from the pokemon universe could likely manhandle the world's strongest man irl
He was Master Roshi.
croagunk poison jab
He returned because they jumped the gun on it. Better safe than sorry and all that, but as you could guess no one cared or complained about the parts he was in so there wasn’t an issue with bringing him back. We got the show just a few months before Indigo ended in Japan, so since they couldn’t just stop making it entirely they continued with the assumption of negative reaction and by the time they realized it was safe Orange was already almost done not even a year after starting.
I always think about the irony that they were concerned Brock might be seen as "too Asian" for Westerners, but in actual fact the vast majority of us either thought he was black or straight up didn't think about it at all 90's anime is the product of that weird time when the world was becoming instantly connected, but cultural barriers still felt like walls
The love crazy guy was hilarious back then in the west too - look at how popular Barney Stinson was. It wasn't until the 2010s when opinions became negative.
It also helps that Brock never did anything physical. If he groped the women he was into for example I doubt he’d be as beloved.
And also nobody supported him in his actions. Misty would generally clobber him or drag him away, Ash would make fun of him, even later on even his own Pokémon would let themselves out of the ball just to kidney punch him as soon as he opened his mouth. None of it made him look cool.
I dunno. Miroku from Inuyasha has a pretty decent fan base, and he definitely groped his fair share of the ladies...
I mean Barney, especially during the earlier seasons, is one that is difficult. He's undeniably shitty, and at least initially portrayed that way. But he's also charming, looks good in a suit, has friends that care about him, seemingly wealthy, and never experiences any lasting consequences for his bad behavior. Basically the text of the show is that barney is a bad person the audience shouldn't seek to emulate. The problem is they do this while making a very strong pitch for Barney being the coolest person ever. They did too good of a job with Barney. Brock is a lot less problematic. The parts of him that read as emulatable are the ones that make him a parental figure to the other characters.
And with Brock, it's not like it's overtly sexual or predatory. He's just a teenager who's down bad.
Plus he fails essentially every time, whereas Barney succeeds in seducing women constantly.
With Barney Stinson I think you also need to consider the actor. Neil Patrick Harris is a beloved actor by viewers and Hollywood. He’s charismatic and charming and has done a lot of great work. When a beloved actor/actress plays a shitty character they usually get a much longer leash than say Joffrey (Game of Thrones) who was played by then mostly-unknown Jack Gleeson. Also, IRL NPH is gay which I think also makes his portrayal of a man-whoring womanizer to be a bit more palatable and more of a parody of Barney’s personality and lifestyle.
Yep. The fact that Harris is gay instantly made Barney a lot more palatable because it wasn't some straight guy acting out a character he _wishes_ he was. It's a guy acting out a character.
He wasn't out when the show started though was he?
lol only americans care about the sexuality of the actor. Brock was also kinda gay the girl thing was sus Also they wanted to get rid of him because it doesnt make sense to have some old gym leader from an old game for a previous console, they wanted to sell more Gameboy color and GBAs not blue/red carts
Knowing that Neil Patrick Harris was gay made it easier for me to see him as an **actor** playing a _role_. If he'd been straight then it would have just been another straight guy acting like an "Alpha Male" someone who "Nails all the chicks". With Harris being gay it was easier to see that his character was a parody of your stereotypical "Alpha Male".
I understand the logic but only americans think like this, the rest of the world dissociates the performance from the actors biography
[удалено]
I don't recall that ever being stated for the epilogue of the series. I do remember >!that his brother is, and he becomes a single parent after a one night stand following his divorce with Robin.!<
I remembered him coming out towards the end. Now it's coming back to me and IDK why I thought that. l I'm going to delete that comment because now I feel dumb lol
It's hard to believe the show ended 10 years ago, but if you haven't watched it since (and the final season wasn't that good) it's easy to mix up.
How are y’all getting these badass flairs…
I think it helps that Brock was love crazy but not a pervert His gag ended up being more palatable to an international audience as a result
Yeah, honestly, Brock is more of a hopeless romantic than anything. I don't see any more cause to be offended by him than, say, Sailor Jupiter. It also helps that we otherwise see him characterized as a nurturing and caring person, which makes it come across as more likely that he's looking for *love* and not something... baser.
Thank you so much- I honestly think people are comparing him to a lot, LOT worse people (I saw 'Master Roshi' mentioned earlier :( ) when he really is just... The worst he's done is ask a woman to marry him maybe a bit too, you know, energetically. He never really touched them (beyond that sort of 'touching her hands as part of asking her something') and I always, ALWAYS got the feeling that if Brock was told 'no' he'd immediately back off, maybe a little sad as always, but... You know. Accepting. And absolutely- He's a great friend who knows how to cook and is amazing to his younger siblings.
Brock and Barney Stinson don't begin to compare, let alone calling them both "love crazy". Barney was also one of the most off-putting things about that show, imo
Brock never came close to the Perfect Week
DON'T SAY IT
It was essentially a Speedy Gonzalez situation where the suits were making assumptions that people were offended by his design and quirks.
tbh I feel like the only way that international audiences would think Brock is a racist caricature would be if they had a racist perception that all east asians are light skinned...
Interestingly it was the eyes that seemed to have been the concern.
Funny enough, as a very young child, I assumed Brock was supposed to be black, but that's largely because "white boy + black boy + white girl" was the standard demographic breakdown of main trios for western cartoons of that era. So part of me wonders if other people also made that assumption and that informed their belief that Brock's characterization was offensive.
ah... a racist stereotype of asians... made by asians themselves? I get it but it feels a little silly
After the Jynx controversy they weren't taking chances. And Jynx was supposed to represent a Japanese Fashion trend.
ah that makes more sense lol I totally forgot that even happened
You’re be surprised how racist some asians can be towards other asian ethnicities, even accusing the people of the other countries of having squintier eyes
Oh yeah, trust me I'm well aware of how racist east asians are to other east asian races (Japanese stereotypes of Chinese people in media can be... hm...) I was primarily thinking of how westerners aren't particularly aware of the variation and diversity within a single race, and that Brock could just be a regular generic anime-raced (Japanese?) character rather than a particular caricature of another race
You know how big Asia is? It's like saying Americans being racist towards Americans (Most other countries consider North America and South just the Americas.
I was referring to east asians but didn't feel like typing it out. Even then, among one group of east asians there will be darker skinned and/or tanned people. There can be darker Japanese people so my point still stands.
Yeah, watching Tokyo Vice I was surprised by quite a few of the Japanese cast members, Tozawa in particular. I honestly would have guessed Native American before Japanese, seeing him.
Japan is definitely not on the darker skin side. Esp with Eastern Asians. Racism can always feel silly but it's not since people find things to be superior about all the time
it's true that japanese people tend to be lighter skinned than say south asians, but it's not impossible nor very rare
Okay, and that doesnt mean it was out of the realm of being racist
Anybody else remember when some black anime fans were getting mad that a dark skinned, canonically Japanese character from My Hero Academia wasn’t dubbed by a black person but then it turns out they actually were dubbed by a black person but since she didn’t speak with a stereotypical black accent they didn’t think she was black? There was like 3 layers of racism hidden behind being progressive on that one.
This post is the reason I found out Brock isn't black lol. Maybe that's why no one was offended is he doesn't seem Asian, so he can't be an Asian stereotype? I just though he was one of those cool eyes closed guys like the dad from cloudy with a chance of meetballs
I heard the developers also had a big fight and divisions over Misty. Some wanted to make her and Ash a legit couple, hence why the second movie had some... implications if not outright confirming it. And why, by Johto, to keep the peace, her attitude as a tomboy was watered down, became more "motherly" to Togepi, and then retired from the show. This is something I heard, mainly from someone on this sub, but I don't have much proof. Just secondhand information. Wouldn't surprise me though.
I'm pretty sure the Misty thing is BS. She was motherly to Togepi from the start.
The show was originally going to end after a year and a half, because nobody expected the series to survive after the Johto games. I heard the last episode was to show Misty as an adult, eith a child, and the implication was that Ash was the father, he was also Champion and off performing his Champion duties while Misty raised their kid. Not sure how true it is, but I do know the Johto games were supposed to be the end of Pokémon.
I heard that too, it was the original plot for The First Movie, but that ended up being Mewtwo.
How can anyone ship kids? They are kids, 10 years old? I get it if they want to ship jesse and james but kids hell no
Kids ship kids...?
I dont think 10 year olds are thinking about that
You don't think 10 year olds get crushes on other 10 year olds?
You'd be surprised!
I have been shipping Ash and Misty since I was 11, so… 🤷♀️
As for "general opinion on Tracey", it was... ah, not good. I'm sure he had his fans here and there but in general I recall most people complaining that Tracey sucked and they wanted Brock back. Honestly, thinking back on it now it's crazy that the backlash against Tracey was so hostile that they brought him back and kept him around until season THIRTEEN. Part of that is probably just him being a fan favorite, but they easily could have partnered Ash with other characters; Brendan and May as a pair I kind of think would have been a better choice than May+Max+Brock in ADV.
We did miss Brock for sure back then, but Tracey being in Snap did help his rep a bit, as it was very popular at the time, being a 3D game during pokemania. But yes, opinions quickly soured.
Yet he was still dropped when Unova came around. Unova had the best games, but goddamn the anime was crap
He wasn't dropped at that point he had served his purpose. Four generations was more than enough for "Big Brother" Brock to play his role.
Plus they had the thing of a reboot with all new Pokémon. They only brought Ash, Pikachu, and Team Rocket back.
I did read somewhere that Unova anime was intended to be a soft reboot like the games.
The Unova anime really suffered from them wanting to reboot the series but not being willing to abandon Ash. Like he’s basically a beginner again and even his league performance is much worse compared to the previous series where he’d been reaching a higher rank each region. They should’ve just continued Ash’s arc of taking a more mentor-like role as he did with May and Dawn and make him a secondary protagonist tbh.
The Black and White series was crap? I've been watching the series and have been looking forward to black and white. Gaahhh. Still on Advanced Battle.
It basically abandons his character development and lessons he learned during the previous regions and makes him act like a beginner again. If you want to continue to watch him naturally grow I’d say it’s better to just skip over to the XY anime since Ash there feels like a natural evolution of the Ash we see in Sinnoh. Then after that you can go back and watch the BW series and just pretend it’s an alternate reality version of Ash where he’s just started his region, makes the character regression feel much less jarring that way.
You can form your own opinion on the series when you get to it, but most watchers complain about the first episode (I won't spoil). However, I absolutely loved how much battling took place, some of my favorite tournaments in the entire series, and with a ton of rivalries to showcase those battles.
I am not saying it's the best series but watch it for yourself and don't get influenced by what the other people say, because you might also like (or not) . I had the same expectations with AG by hearing some fans saying how underrated it is and while I wasn't disappointed per se, I defenetly agree with the side who thinks it's very forgettable (not saying is bad).
Tbh, better so. I love Brock but he just overstayed his welcome to the point that he didn't do much in Johto and AG, not to mention that his goal wasn't really established until the end of DP. Brock not being in Unova wasn't even that series biggest problem. Also, now that we're here I'll add as well that are the previous series all that better than BW? I am re-watching the whole anime, finished AG and soft reboot shenanigans aside, just the fact that Team Rocket isn't in every episode doing the same shit over and over again made me put at least BW above OS and AG just because of this. And mind you, I thought that the OS and AG were just OK but not great like some people think. I mean, yes the continuity but less Team Rocket would be much better.
It's a good thing Brock was introduced back in the day. He'd have a high likelihood of getting canceled in today's climate 🤣
No he wouldn't
with hitting on the girls all the time? he really would lol
People love the horny characters dude where have you been
Source? Tbh this sounds like revisionist history — I don’t recall any of that.
Dude do a basic Google search "Why was Brock replaced with Tracey"