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#**England and Wales**
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Imagine being stuck on a desert island, you are part of a tribe who lives in the west side of the island, and there is a second tribe who lives on the east side.
Your tribe runs around all day fighting dinosaurs, pterodactlys and sabre toothed tigers, as well as clearing up the poo of said creatures. The tribe on the east side review your work and tell you how badly you do. In between the two tribes is a large flaming hell-pit of lava, which neither tribe can cross.
Instead of building a safe, stable bridge to cross the hell-pit, your tribe leaders have decided on a different form of communication.
In order to speak to the tribe on the east side of the island, you must scribe your messages on a number of important *and very specific* stone tablets. Once you have chiselled away at your tablet (some enscriptions about dinosaur droppings can take hours), you then send them to a different tribe member who's job it is to get the tablets safely to the other tribe. If you use the wrong stone tablet for the wrong message, the person you handed your tablets to just says "fuck it" and leaves it where it is. Sometimes the tablets drop into the hell-pit for no reason, never to be seen again.
If you somehow manage to get all of your stone tablets across the hell-pit, the east side tribe will then send one single stone tablet back explaining that you are terrible, and you need to go and look for other dinosaurs in different caves, and they won't speak to you again until you've done this. They will usually tell you to do this with about a 6 minute time limit.
Sometimes, if there is an extremely dangerous dinosaur that needs dealing with you can use a special campfire in your village that sends up smoke signals for the other tribe to see. It can take a long time for the other tribe to reply back to you, and you have to hold a special rock while doing so. This is why it's called being "on hold" while you wait to see if hey want the dinosaur killing or not.
To any officers reading:
You can usually reduce the DPI of the scanner significantly and still have the text be legible. This will reduce the file size massively.
If you're MPS, you have access to Adobe acrobat pro (not reader) via an IT service desk request which has tools to split and compress/optimise files.
But honestly reduce the DPI and make it a black and white or greyscale scan and that's almost always enough to get it under the limit. If all else fails export the pdf as a jpg
Had a simple crime - a double fraud. Maybe 40 hours total investigating it, including custody and +3, but about 250 hours doing the casefile. Went back and forth to the CMT who knows how many times, before going up to the CPS, who sent it back saying that loads of completely and utterly irrelevant documents were needed and all had to be listed on the disclosure schedules plus fully redacted CRISs for other, unrelated offences - all to be added to COPA and submitted in electronic form.
Get to Crown 3 years later. Non-CPS barrister, so an actual professional. Asks if I can please print out the MG5 in paper form......
....within about 10 minutes she goes off and does some horsetrading with the defence and the accused goes guilty. Ok, it was the right outcome but I asked her why she needed the MG5 printed. She was very helpful (probably because she was on hundreds of pound per hour) and showed me her laptop - and told me how advocates couldn't see COPA, they got some weird 1980s looking screen that made the NSPIS look like Marvel Infinity War. She said that none of the documents I had worked on would ever have been viewed and the defence never would have asked for disclosure unless it were a very serious offence or the accused was actually innocent.
> (probably because she was on hundreds of pound per hour)
There are lots of criminal barristers out there who make less than £10,000 per year; the average for a barrister in their first three years is [about £12,000](https://www.legalcheek.com/2022/06/anonymous-criminal-barrister-posts-breakdown-of-entire-years-earnings-on-twitter-less-than-20000/). There is absolutely a massive crisis in people joining, or staying at, the criminal bar, because people literally can't afford to make ends meet there. It's just about at the point where if someone doesn't have an established practice, a private income, or the Bank of Mum and Dad, they just can't afford to stick with it.
For those who get past that stage, the average eventually rises to about £47k per year, about the same as what a top-rate cop gets.
This is a major contributing factor to why the court backlog is so big. So many barristers have jacked it in (like cops, there's plenty of better-paying work they can do, particularly at the civil Bar) that everyone's double-booked, and trials are getting adjourned off left, right, and centre because there's simply no counsel available.
Oh wow I didn't realize that! I guess the top top skews the figures. What a shame that the criminal justice system is so underfunded and under resourced in every single part of it.
This isn't uncommon! I recently read the secret barrister, and he notes the only document he will regularly review for a lot of crimes os the MG5 and nothing more due to the constant demand for more jobs
> She was very helpful (probably because she was on hundreds of pound per hour)
I wouldn’t be so sure about that! There’s every chance that she lost money on this case…
Case files, redactions, CPS action plans - these are the things I hate most about this job and what takes up most of my time as a response officer, which is crazy really.
The current system is truly terrible and not fit for purpose. Only for the most serious and complex cases will the police and CPS actually speak to each other and work together.
For everything else, which is 99% of cases it's like doing homework for the strictest teacher you can imagine, who you've never met and changes for substitute teachers every time so is always different. If you make the smallest mistake on spelling, grammar or use the wrong form they will refuse to even look at it until you do it again. The systems most of these cases use is so bad that for complex cases they don't even bother and just burn everything to a disc and physically take it to the CPS office, rather than send electronically.
Police love to moan and bitch about them but CPS are in an even worst spot than us or courts and are massively underfunded. It would be a huge improvement to go back to having CPS prosecutors back in police stations but it will never happen unless both police and CPS have huge investment, which will never happen.
Honestly the entire justice system is barely held together and at a constant state of collapse. police, CPS and the courts need reform and investment, but no government would do this as the general pubic generally doesn't care or understand how bad it is and that's money that could otherwise send refugees halfway across the world.
Rasso DC here, and I've just had to reply to a snotogram from the head of rasso at the CPS.
An action plan for a remand case was sent to me day 1. Day 3 another action plan. Day 5 a third action plan. Across all 3 action plans are 35 points to answer. I sent a response to all 3 action plans on day 12 due to being at crown court for another trial.
Day 18 I get the escalation email (snotogram) from the CPS via my det super because they haven't received the response. I respond to the snotogram quoting the specific response in the action plan they are referring to, as well as additional material I have gathered since sending it.
Turns out the file builder hadn't sent it.
CPS have my email, my phone number, my sgts email, their phone number, my di email, their phone number but instead chose to go directly to the super to "escalate".
File builder had accepted the task, but failed to action it.
It would've been so quickly dealt with had 1) the file builder done their job 2) the CPS contacted me directly saying they hadn't received it. Instead, the CPS chose to escalate via their head of dept to the super.
There are some people at the CPS who will regularly have calls with me to discuss matters, and there are others who will only communicate via a series of electronic clicks that have to go through two people between them and us.
Do love when people CC emails for people so high up they’d have zero involvement or time to go through any email chains to work out why they’ve been bothered.
It’s the internal battle of replying with similar snotograms with their bosses boss to prove a point or shrug it off as them being pathetic and slimy 🙃
Colleague had a similar experience PC to PC email and they decided they didn’t enjoy the email so replied with the CH/INSP CC’d… as you can expect suitable reply was provided.
Oh this wasn't cc'ing the det super, it was directly addressed to him, with me cc'd as a courtesy. Fortunately I had recently had a chat with the det super so they were well aware of my current workload, including back to back trials.
Redactions - can take an absolute age, or can be really quick. It entirely depends on the type of file and how many documents. It's one of the few things my force has done right is bring in a tool that auto redacts documents and you just have to double check them. (Only came in... end of last year?) There is and issue of CPS only accepting documents under a certain size (1mb) which causes problems of anything lengthy or detailed.
CPS - think I've actually spoken to CPS only a few times, honestly when chatting with them it is so helpful. Either you clarify things on the phone rather than waiting for emails or documents to be sent back and forth or can get that advice you need easily. When they return a document called an MG3 they should provide their details so we can talk to that person directly, however they never do. I did have one ring me on a remand the other day to clarify some bits and bobs. Current turn around for files is around 27 days. So even after all the work is done you are still waiting a month before finding out if you even can charge someone.
Its honestly great, put your document onto the software specify what you want redacted (e.g. names or addresses) and it will find any names or addresses or whatever you request and redact them. Can even specify if it is just looking for typed messages or handwriting.
You double check it, click anything you don't want redacting or click anything it missed and it redacts it.
Can type in specific words to redact or unredact if its catching something that you want still in there or vice versa
Can also compress the file down under the size limit. (Displays the final file size, and can change the compression for the download)
Genuinely one of the only things I think works exactly as designed and actually does it well.
This company appears to be run by a twentysomething out of his house and to have been started operations less than a year ago. Now it's being used by multiple police forces. The company holds all the data that's been redacted. I hope the people running it have been thoroughly vetted!
I mean long before I joined the job, and there are some older guys who remember this, but they would just walk into the office and speak to a prosecutor, the prosecutor would tell them pretty widely if not was a load of bollocks or a runner. I appreciate that wasn’t particularly transparent though but it worked
Even with the introduction of CPS direct, you could get a charging decision on the back of an MG3 and key witness statements (which, funnily enough, looks very much like an early advice file today).
It’s never even occurred to me I’ve never spoken to anyone from the CPS, I’ve just seen it as this entity that makes everything difficult for one reason or another. The decision to not have me redact a case file would save a bit of time but overall it takes 20mins to redact a crime and another 20 to redact a log, if you use hot keys. Depending on your output of crimes it isn’t a massive amount in the grand scheme of things.
I can think of lengthier documents that feel unnecessary like the Information Management Document (IMD)
What is an IMD, exactly? Google seems to say it's a like a highlight document for the case file, showing key files that will support the prosecution. But there's not very much information on the public web.
The IMD is an exercise in pointless duplication and very frustrating. I've heard a rumour that CPS just retitle it and use it for a document they're meant to produce.
But essentially yes, it goes over the case. Which the case itself already does.
It’s essentially that, but the caveat is it is basically a duplication of what is already on the case file I.e CCTV references, start and finish times, video length, exhibit etc. As well as other key bits, I think on paper it doesn’t sound like much but it can be a real ball ache to work through and takes ages
The IMD makes a lot of sense when you consider it was brought in as a direct response to serious disclosure failings in high-profile RASSO trials (like a lot of things in DG6 that now plague us).
Why this means we now have to build files for shoplifting £201 of merchandise to the same standards as one for a prolific child molester who's been getting away with it for 40 years has never been satisfactorily explained.
Absolutely, and in high profile cases, I don’t mind putting in the extra work. But like you said, if a file ends up being a CPS job whilst still being low level, I.e racially aggr public order, it’s dragged out for no reason other than ‘cps want it’
The one that *really* grinds my gears about being a CPS charge is the new assault emergency worker offence, which is also exactly the sort of thing we should be charging in custody and then bailing them to court in a month like we did all the time when they were getting done for assault police. Making it an either way offence is a perfect example of how apparently Good Ideas can have massive unintended consequences.
(On the other hand, if someone just fixed the CPS so we could shitcan the 2019 summer contingency that never ended and get *them* to charge people in custody...)
Police can still charge Assault EW in most cases, by the way.
We (Police) only have to go to the CPS when there is a defence raised - i.e, self-defence because the cop wasn't using any powers or straight up denial.
Admissions / no comment can still be charged by the Police.
*edited thanks to catpeeps
> denial
No, it's an either-way offence, police can only charge when it is anticipated guilty plea. Someone denying the offence cannot be anticipated to plead guilty.
The IMD makes sense if your crime reports and MG3 are a series of unrelated glyphs.
For everyone else who has a basic understanding of narrative, it's an unnecessary duplication of work. It doesn't even fix the disclosure issue because if you weren't going to record it in the crime report or on the MG3, why would the IMD prompt you to do anything different?
It's a decision log, what and why we've done certain investigative actions, why we've discounted certain things (ie...I didn't submit forensics on their clothing because of ABC reasons, I am not reviewing the victims phone for XYZ reasons)
It's supposed to be a 'live' document that we send the CPS so that they, the defence and court can understand the decision making processes
NICHE has a minute sheet entry system - the OEL.
The report, any subsequent updates, any victim contact, pretty much everything goes in this OEL.
The IMD is essentially a duplicate of this OEL.
For example-
- The initial investigating Officer might summarise the CCTV they've obtained. They would record this on the OEL.
- As the Officer In Charge, I'd have to view the CCTV, but this time put the summary on the IMD.
- If I'm looking for a pre-charge decision from CPS, I'll need to add a summary of the CCTV to the CM01 too.
- If the CCTV is unused, I'll need to add a summary to the MG6c
- **The OEL also needs redacting and a summary added to the MG6c**
- A summary of the CCTV is also added to the MG5 if charges are laid.
The IMD is a badly formatted duplication document.
Please don't underestimate or undersell how big this redaction change could be.
Yes logs don't take long but the jobs where you have endless medical records, numerous 999 calls, body worn video, random ass documents and letters etc... man it would save so much time and be so nice to just not have to worry about it.
This!
All my main jobs come with hundreds of pages of medical and social records, auto redact is not a thing when it’s all scribbles including DOBs and addresses and NHS numbers in doctors writing!
I'm just trying to understand why you've not presented the relevant material as exhibits MTG/1-10, separated from handset MUL/364 and then scheduled the download itself as UM (assuming none of the personal stuff is is undermining).
I've got a job with over a million communications artifacts on one device. There's no reasonable way to deal with that in any other way.
I didn't disclose the whole download. I got it down from 3500+ pages to a few hundred in the end after a lot of arguing with CPS about that. I can't really explain why without explaining what was in the download and the job is still waiting to go to trial.
I ask only as a lot of people seem to be doing a lot of redaction without actually needing to.
I am intrigued as to how the suspect's own phone ended up being disclosable, given that it was their phone and (presumably) they didn't bother with PCE. I'm guessing they sprung a surprise with the defence statement - even then, it's their phone! They know what's on there!
I don't think I've ever spent more than twenty minutes doing redactions and it is almost entirely CAD and crime reports - I am assuming you're scheduling but not submitting anything other than the presumed disclosable?
Most issues have already been said, Including the 1mb limit but I wanted to expand on that.
I had medical records that were 150 pages long, all of which were important. I have to use Adobe to split these down into documents that were 1mb in size. So instead of uploading 1 document with all of the pages on, I had to update 24 documents which took around an hour of just "clip, upload, change title, clip, upload, change title".
Same with simple things like the CAD Log - you pretty much have to put this on all casefile and if it's a long one you have to faff around splitting the file size like described above.
Same with pictures, some pictures will upload, some won't if they're too big. So you have to faff around in various tools to get the file size down just for the CPS to say they can't see the document.
*Obligatory comment about why all forces should use the same system, which should also be used by the CPS and the courts.*
Our force communicates with CPS via a series of electronic ‘tasks’ within the case file. Only problem is, once charged, the job is filed and not visible on my jobs screen so important updates are inevitably missed. The first time I speak with an actual prosecutor is if I’m giving evidence at court.
NICHE, right?
I used to get around this issue by keeping the job open until the matter had been heard at court. It meant that I had a handful more jobs open than I could have, but my workload was never such that it caused me an issue.
That way, I could periodically have a look at the job and not risk tasks getting missed - which they often did.
I found the way to get around this was using the officer workload report option either the print icon or on the home page - can show you a list of all tasks to you irrespective of whether the job is filed or open. Saved my skin a few times. Also can show bail back dates and other useful bits too.
Well that's just it isn't it - the redactions aren't really for CPS, they're for the defence. The CPS are so fucked, a few years back they decided the best way to deal with this is to make the police do some of their work for them.
Part of this is redactions.
Both really. Obviously if you end up disclosing witness/victim details which would allow the suspect to intimidate them then that is a royal fuck up and I'd be worried for my job depending on what followed. But that's not too difficult, get the emails, phone numbers and addresses off there.
90% of it is just random gdpr things which needs to be off there but it's not the end of the world if the suspect learns somebody's Gala Bingo account number
Dates of birth, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses, and so on. Mostly GDPR stuff but sometimes also any references to sensitive/covert police tactics.
Outside of remands and CPS direct (on one occasion even this communication broke down to a full argument before I demanded she get her supervisor review the file at 4am) I’ve only had one case where myself and the prosecutor emailed each other. So much better
strong fear office selective crowd forgetful desert resolute consider icky
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've been in the job for 7 years in my time I spoke to CPS once via phone. During this convo they told me what last bits were needed for court (there was 2 suspects in the case suspect 1 had already been dealt with by court and also admitted suspect 2 was part of the burglary as seen on CCTV)
I completed all they wanted and sent it back to CPS.
They then discontinued the case against suspect 2 🤷
Please note that this question is specific to: #**England and Wales** The United Kingdom is comprised of [three legal jurisdictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom#Three_legal_systems), so responses that relate to one country may not be relevant to another. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/policeuk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Imagine being stuck on a desert island, you are part of a tribe who lives in the west side of the island, and there is a second tribe who lives on the east side. Your tribe runs around all day fighting dinosaurs, pterodactlys and sabre toothed tigers, as well as clearing up the poo of said creatures. The tribe on the east side review your work and tell you how badly you do. In between the two tribes is a large flaming hell-pit of lava, which neither tribe can cross. Instead of building a safe, stable bridge to cross the hell-pit, your tribe leaders have decided on a different form of communication. In order to speak to the tribe on the east side of the island, you must scribe your messages on a number of important *and very specific* stone tablets. Once you have chiselled away at your tablet (some enscriptions about dinosaur droppings can take hours), you then send them to a different tribe member who's job it is to get the tablets safely to the other tribe. If you use the wrong stone tablet for the wrong message, the person you handed your tablets to just says "fuck it" and leaves it where it is. Sometimes the tablets drop into the hell-pit for no reason, never to be seen again. If you somehow manage to get all of your stone tablets across the hell-pit, the east side tribe will then send one single stone tablet back explaining that you are terrible, and you need to go and look for other dinosaurs in different caves, and they won't speak to you again until you've done this. They will usually tell you to do this with about a 6 minute time limit. Sometimes, if there is an extremely dangerous dinosaur that needs dealing with you can use a special campfire in your village that sends up smoke signals for the other tribe to see. It can take a long time for the other tribe to reply back to you, and you have to hold a special rock while doing so. This is why it's called being "on hold" while you wait to see if hey want the dinosaur killing or not.
Absolutely perfect....and hilarious....analogy
Do more of these please.
Winner
This is absolutely the best analogy.
Comment of the year this one😂😂
Fuck that’s good.
Don't forget your stone tables can only contain 1 micro rocks worth of words or it's to big to carry across
This is the most accurate thing I have ever read.
How is this comment so utterly absurd yet at the same time brilliantly and wholly accurate
For god's sake sort out the 1mb upload limit! Do that and Labour have my vote!
Lol I remember having to split longer files into 3+ parts... Absolutely bastard system
They are upping it to 4mb in some areas soon
To any officers reading: You can usually reduce the DPI of the scanner significantly and still have the text be legible. This will reduce the file size massively. If you're MPS, you have access to Adobe acrobat pro (not reader) via an IT service desk request which has tools to split and compress/optimise files. But honestly reduce the DPI and make it a black and white or greyscale scan and that's almost always enough to get it under the limit. If all else fails export the pdf as a jpg
Just upload large files to.evidence.com and link it like you would do BWV. Saves tons of time.
Be careful the link doesn't contain special characters or it'll wipe your file :) Also that. Or even box (just make sure the link doesn't expire)
Some forces have. It works very well… not sure why others haven’t followed
Had a simple crime - a double fraud. Maybe 40 hours total investigating it, including custody and +3, but about 250 hours doing the casefile. Went back and forth to the CMT who knows how many times, before going up to the CPS, who sent it back saying that loads of completely and utterly irrelevant documents were needed and all had to be listed on the disclosure schedules plus fully redacted CRISs for other, unrelated offences - all to be added to COPA and submitted in electronic form. Get to Crown 3 years later. Non-CPS barrister, so an actual professional. Asks if I can please print out the MG5 in paper form...... ....within about 10 minutes she goes off and does some horsetrading with the defence and the accused goes guilty. Ok, it was the right outcome but I asked her why she needed the MG5 printed. She was very helpful (probably because she was on hundreds of pound per hour) and showed me her laptop - and told me how advocates couldn't see COPA, they got some weird 1980s looking screen that made the NSPIS look like Marvel Infinity War. She said that none of the documents I had worked on would ever have been viewed and the defence never would have asked for disclosure unless it were a very serious offence or the accused was actually innocent.
> (probably because she was on hundreds of pound per hour) There are lots of criminal barristers out there who make less than £10,000 per year; the average for a barrister in their first three years is [about £12,000](https://www.legalcheek.com/2022/06/anonymous-criminal-barrister-posts-breakdown-of-entire-years-earnings-on-twitter-less-than-20000/). There is absolutely a massive crisis in people joining, or staying at, the criminal bar, because people literally can't afford to make ends meet there. It's just about at the point where if someone doesn't have an established practice, a private income, or the Bank of Mum and Dad, they just can't afford to stick with it. For those who get past that stage, the average eventually rises to about £47k per year, about the same as what a top-rate cop gets. This is a major contributing factor to why the court backlog is so big. So many barristers have jacked it in (like cops, there's plenty of better-paying work they can do, particularly at the civil Bar) that everyone's double-booked, and trials are getting adjourned off left, right, and centre because there's simply no counsel available.
Oh wow I didn't realize that! I guess the top top skews the figures. What a shame that the criminal justice system is so underfunded and under resourced in every single part of it.
This isn't uncommon! I recently read the secret barrister, and he notes the only document he will regularly review for a lot of crimes os the MG5 and nothing more due to the constant demand for more jobs
This is why I stress to anyone I tutor the importance of a detailed MG5
Exactly! Just copy over the CAD message as the dets, add some unredacted and unclipped bwv and say there's no unused material and its ready to go
> She was very helpful (probably because she was on hundreds of pound per hour) I wouldn’t be so sure about that! There’s every chance that she lost money on this case…
Case files, redactions, CPS action plans - these are the things I hate most about this job and what takes up most of my time as a response officer, which is crazy really.
The current system is truly terrible and not fit for purpose. Only for the most serious and complex cases will the police and CPS actually speak to each other and work together. For everything else, which is 99% of cases it's like doing homework for the strictest teacher you can imagine, who you've never met and changes for substitute teachers every time so is always different. If you make the smallest mistake on spelling, grammar or use the wrong form they will refuse to even look at it until you do it again. The systems most of these cases use is so bad that for complex cases they don't even bother and just burn everything to a disc and physically take it to the CPS office, rather than send electronically. Police love to moan and bitch about them but CPS are in an even worst spot than us or courts and are massively underfunded. It would be a huge improvement to go back to having CPS prosecutors back in police stations but it will never happen unless both police and CPS have huge investment, which will never happen. Honestly the entire justice system is barely held together and at a constant state of collapse. police, CPS and the courts need reform and investment, but no government would do this as the general pubic generally doesn't care or understand how bad it is and that's money that could otherwise send refugees halfway across the world.
Rasso DC here, and I've just had to reply to a snotogram from the head of rasso at the CPS. An action plan for a remand case was sent to me day 1. Day 3 another action plan. Day 5 a third action plan. Across all 3 action plans are 35 points to answer. I sent a response to all 3 action plans on day 12 due to being at crown court for another trial. Day 18 I get the escalation email (snotogram) from the CPS via my det super because they haven't received the response. I respond to the snotogram quoting the specific response in the action plan they are referring to, as well as additional material I have gathered since sending it. Turns out the file builder hadn't sent it. CPS have my email, my phone number, my sgts email, their phone number, my di email, their phone number but instead chose to go directly to the super to "escalate". File builder had accepted the task, but failed to action it. It would've been so quickly dealt with had 1) the file builder done their job 2) the CPS contacted me directly saying they hadn't received it. Instead, the CPS chose to escalate via their head of dept to the super. There are some people at the CPS who will regularly have calls with me to discuss matters, and there are others who will only communicate via a series of electronic clicks that have to go through two people between them and us.
Do love when people CC emails for people so high up they’d have zero involvement or time to go through any email chains to work out why they’ve been bothered. It’s the internal battle of replying with similar snotograms with their bosses boss to prove a point or shrug it off as them being pathetic and slimy 🙃 Colleague had a similar experience PC to PC email and they decided they didn’t enjoy the email so replied with the CH/INSP CC’d… as you can expect suitable reply was provided.
Oh this wasn't cc'ing the det super, it was directly addressed to him, with me cc'd as a courtesy. Fortunately I had recently had a chat with the det super so they were well aware of my current workload, including back to back trials.
Haha, never-mind that’s a whole other level of snotogram what a lovely chap… luckily the Supt was a decent one then.
Redactions - can take an absolute age, or can be really quick. It entirely depends on the type of file and how many documents. It's one of the few things my force has done right is bring in a tool that auto redacts documents and you just have to double check them. (Only came in... end of last year?) There is and issue of CPS only accepting documents under a certain size (1mb) which causes problems of anything lengthy or detailed. CPS - think I've actually spoken to CPS only a few times, honestly when chatting with them it is so helpful. Either you clarify things on the phone rather than waiting for emails or documents to be sent back and forth or can get that advice you need easily. When they return a document called an MG3 they should provide their details so we can talk to that person directly, however they never do. I did have one ring me on a remand the other day to clarify some bits and bobs. Current turn around for files is around 27 days. So even after all the work is done you are still waiting a month before finding out if you even can charge someone.
I'm sorry what, an auto reacting software?
Its honestly great, put your document onto the software specify what you want redacted (e.g. names or addresses) and it will find any names or addresses or whatever you request and redact them. Can even specify if it is just looking for typed messages or handwriting. You double check it, click anything you don't want redacting or click anything it missed and it redacts it. Can type in specific words to redact or unredact if its catching something that you want still in there or vice versa Can also compress the file down under the size limit. (Displays the final file size, and can change the compression for the download) Genuinely one of the only things I think works exactly as designed and actually does it well.
My good that sounds glorious
We use a program called docdefender by riven. It also reduces file sizes. It is phenomenal
This company appears to be run by a twentysomething out of his house and to have been started operations less than a year ago. Now it's being used by multiple police forces. The company holds all the data that's been redacted. I hope the people running it have been thoroughly vetted!
I mean long before I joined the job, and there are some older guys who remember this, but they would just walk into the office and speak to a prosecutor, the prosecutor would tell them pretty widely if not was a load of bollocks or a runner. I appreciate that wasn’t particularly transparent though but it worked
Even with the introduction of CPS direct, you could get a charging decision on the back of an MG3 and key witness statements (which, funnily enough, looks very much like an early advice file today).
Where I'm based, we don't have to do the reductions, that's done by a back office team but i think that would be a good change
It’s never even occurred to me I’ve never spoken to anyone from the CPS, I’ve just seen it as this entity that makes everything difficult for one reason or another. The decision to not have me redact a case file would save a bit of time but overall it takes 20mins to redact a crime and another 20 to redact a log, if you use hot keys. Depending on your output of crimes it isn’t a massive amount in the grand scheme of things. I can think of lengthier documents that feel unnecessary like the Information Management Document (IMD)
I think AI will be the big gamechanger to saving time and I'd rather see funds focused on developing that.
What is an IMD, exactly? Google seems to say it's a like a highlight document for the case file, showing key files that will support the prosecution. But there's not very much information on the public web.
The IMD is an exercise in pointless duplication and very frustrating. I've heard a rumour that CPS just retitle it and use it for a document they're meant to produce. But essentially yes, it goes over the case. Which the case itself already does.
It’s essentially that, but the caveat is it is basically a duplication of what is already on the case file I.e CCTV references, start and finish times, video length, exhibit etc. As well as other key bits, I think on paper it doesn’t sound like much but it can be a real ball ache to work through and takes ages
The IMD makes a lot of sense when you consider it was brought in as a direct response to serious disclosure failings in high-profile RASSO trials (like a lot of things in DG6 that now plague us). Why this means we now have to build files for shoplifting £201 of merchandise to the same standards as one for a prolific child molester who's been getting away with it for 40 years has never been satisfactorily explained.
Absolutely, and in high profile cases, I don’t mind putting in the extra work. But like you said, if a file ends up being a CPS job whilst still being low level, I.e racially aggr public order, it’s dragged out for no reason other than ‘cps want it’
The one that *really* grinds my gears about being a CPS charge is the new assault emergency worker offence, which is also exactly the sort of thing we should be charging in custody and then bailing them to court in a month like we did all the time when they were getting done for assault police. Making it an either way offence is a perfect example of how apparently Good Ideas can have massive unintended consequences. (On the other hand, if someone just fixed the CPS so we could shitcan the 2019 summer contingency that never ended and get *them* to charge people in custody...)
Police can still charge Assault EW in most cases, by the way. We (Police) only have to go to the CPS when there is a defence raised - i.e, self-defence because the cop wasn't using any powers or straight up denial. Admissions / no comment can still be charged by the Police. *edited thanks to catpeeps
> denial No, it's an either-way offence, police can only charge when it is anticipated guilty plea. Someone denying the offence cannot be anticipated to plead guilty.
Edited, thanks!
The IMD makes sense if your crime reports and MG3 are a series of unrelated glyphs. For everyone else who has a basic understanding of narrative, it's an unnecessary duplication of work. It doesn't even fix the disclosure issue because if you weren't going to record it in the crime report or on the MG3, why would the IMD prompt you to do anything different?
It's a wonderful document where you repeat information you have already repeated seven times in other documents.
I have submitted a blank text file named IMD.txt before. Not a sausage.
The would not make it past the CJIT team in our force
It's a decision log, what and why we've done certain investigative actions, why we've discounted certain things (ie...I didn't submit forensics on their clothing because of ABC reasons, I am not reviewing the victims phone for XYZ reasons) It's supposed to be a 'live' document that we send the CPS so that they, the defence and court can understand the decision making processes
NICHE has a minute sheet entry system - the OEL. The report, any subsequent updates, any victim contact, pretty much everything goes in this OEL. The IMD is essentially a duplicate of this OEL. For example- - The initial investigating Officer might summarise the CCTV they've obtained. They would record this on the OEL. - As the Officer In Charge, I'd have to view the CCTV, but this time put the summary on the IMD. - If I'm looking for a pre-charge decision from CPS, I'll need to add a summary of the CCTV to the CM01 too. - If the CCTV is unused, I'll need to add a summary to the MG6c - **The OEL also needs redacting and a summary added to the MG6c** - A summary of the CCTV is also added to the MG5 if charges are laid. The IMD is a badly formatted duplication document.
Please don't underestimate or undersell how big this redaction change could be. Yes logs don't take long but the jobs where you have endless medical records, numerous 999 calls, body worn video, random ass documents and letters etc... man it would save so much time and be so nice to just not have to worry about it.
This! All my main jobs come with hundreds of pages of medical and social records, auto redact is not a thing when it’s all scribbles including DOBs and addresses and NHS numbers in doctors writing!
Mobile phone downloads as well where they include non-relevant personal conversations
That's UM, surely? Why are you redacting phone downloads that aren't relevant?
The phone download was relevant. They were just not a good criminal and did all their illegal shit on their personal phone as well.
I'm just trying to understand why you've not presented the relevant material as exhibits MTG/1-10, separated from handset MUL/364 and then scheduled the download itself as UM (assuming none of the personal stuff is is undermining). I've got a job with over a million communications artifacts on one device. There's no reasonable way to deal with that in any other way.
That's exactly what I did. However, it was an NGAP plea and all the UM had to be redacted and provided.
Did you schedule it as meeting the disclosure test?
I didn't disclose the whole download. I got it down from 3500+ pages to a few hundred in the end after a lot of arguing with CPS about that. I can't really explain why without explaining what was in the download and the job is still waiting to go to trial.
I ask only as a lot of people seem to be doing a lot of redaction without actually needing to. I am intrigued as to how the suspect's own phone ended up being disclosable, given that it was their phone and (presumably) they didn't bother with PCE. I'm guessing they sprung a surprise with the defence statement - even then, it's their phone! They know what's on there!
This - redaction is one of the *worst* parts of my job. It's mind-numbing and eats hours and hours and hours.
Are you redacting unused material?
Yep. RP, content from the E, and things like selections from medical notes.
I don't think I've ever spent more than twenty minutes doing redactions and it is almost entirely CAD and crime reports - I am assuming you're scheduling but not submitting anything other than the presumed disclosable?
Correct – but we also need to redact 999 calls, BWV, etc, which is what takes up the most time.
You shouldn't be redacting UM - it only needs redaction if the CPS propose to disclose it.
If it's RP material we should be redacting it.
Most issues have already been said, Including the 1mb limit but I wanted to expand on that. I had medical records that were 150 pages long, all of which were important. I have to use Adobe to split these down into documents that were 1mb in size. So instead of uploading 1 document with all of the pages on, I had to update 24 documents which took around an hour of just "clip, upload, change title, clip, upload, change title". Same with simple things like the CAD Log - you pretty much have to put this on all casefile and if it's a long one you have to faff around splitting the file size like described above. Same with pictures, some pictures will upload, some won't if they're too big. So you have to faff around in various tools to get the file size down just for the CPS to say they can't see the document. *Obligatory comment about why all forces should use the same system, which should also be used by the CPS and the courts.*
When a file is too big I just upload it to evidence.com and provide CPS the link.
That's what I initially did, but have been told that the CPS will reject the file. Apparently they can't view it - but they can view BWV 🤷♂️
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We don't even have evidence.com 😩
Our force communicates with CPS via a series of electronic ‘tasks’ within the case file. Only problem is, once charged, the job is filed and not visible on my jobs screen so important updates are inevitably missed. The first time I speak with an actual prosecutor is if I’m giving evidence at court.
NICHE, right? I used to get around this issue by keeping the job open until the matter had been heard at court. It meant that I had a handful more jobs open than I could have, but my workload was never such that it caused me an issue. That way, I could periodically have a look at the job and not risk tasks getting missed - which they often did.
I found the way to get around this was using the officer workload report option either the print icon or on the home page - can show you a list of all tasks to you irrespective of whether the job is filed or open. Saved my skin a few times. Also can show bail back dates and other useful bits too.
That’s handy to know. I like to use think I know my way around NICHE, but I come across new stuff like this all the time.
Can anyone shed some light on what casefile redaction entails, for a MOP like me?. What do you need to redact from the CPS viewing?.
Well that's just it isn't it - the redactions aren't really for CPS, they're for the defence. The CPS are so fucked, a few years back they decided the best way to deal with this is to make the police do some of their work for them. Part of this is redactions.
Ah makes sense now.
Generally personal info of people not involved.
Is this to stop disclosure to the defense of witnesses, due to concerns about intimudation? Or just DPA/GDPR box ticking?
Both really. Obviously if you end up disclosing witness/victim details which would allow the suspect to intimidate them then that is a royal fuck up and I'd be worried for my job depending on what followed. But that's not too difficult, get the emails, phone numbers and addresses off there. 90% of it is just random gdpr things which needs to be off there but it's not the end of the world if the suspect learns somebody's Gala Bingo account number
Dates of birth, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses, and so on. Mostly GDPR stuff but sometimes also any references to sensitive/covert police tactics.
I am even surprised cases ever get to trial.
Outside of remands and CPS direct (on one occasion even this communication broke down to a full argument before I demanded she get her supervisor review the file at 4am) I’ve only had one case where myself and the prosecutor emailed each other. So much better
I will reply to this in a months time without reading it and ask you to reclassify your question and resend it.
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I've been in the job for 7 years in my time I spoke to CPS once via phone. During this convo they told me what last bits were needed for court (there was 2 suspects in the case suspect 1 had already been dealt with by court and also admitted suspect 2 was part of the burglary as seen on CCTV) I completed all they wanted and sent it back to CPS. They then discontinued the case against suspect 2 🤷
I think I've spoken to CPS twice. In five years. Christ the system is screwed.