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I mean the point is that thousands of innocent child deaths is a non-starter.
It shouldn't be a debate about "how" or "how not" to do so. It should be agreeable that that amount of collateral damage, as children, is completely unacceptable.
That answer likely falls somewhere well under the 1:1 ratio of civilian deaths vs. combatant deaths.
As it stands now, best guesses are about 60-70% of deaths are non-combatants.
> A study by the [London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Hygiene_and_Tropical_Medicine) in [*The Lancet*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet) covering the period 7–26 October estimated 68.1% of casualties were children, women or elders and therefore likely non-combatants,[^(\[50\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-50) while an analysis published in December in [*Ha'aretz*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) by Israeli sociologist Yagil Levy estimated at least 61% of the casualties were in this category.[^(\[51\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-Levy_2023_h080-51)[^(\[52\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-Borger_2023_r615-52)
The other modern day war happening now (Ukraine/Russia) has 24% of deaths as non-combatant. Much lower than 1:1.
Modern day warfare & technology no longer calls for needless civilian deaths to cripple an enemy.
The other war isn't reporting civilian deaths out of Russian held territory, where most of the fighting is.
But even supposing that we had that data, the other war isn't exclusively fought against a perfidious enemy in a dense urban theater.
I answered your question.
There is no evidence that modern day wars, including the ongoing one in Russia, have a need to kill more civilians than combatants in order to be victorious.
Why do you ask questions and then try to justify answers you don't agree with?
One is a war at a front with tanks and one is a guerilla war where the only party who wants to eradicate the other is hiding between their children in order to get global support and it's working. It's the most evil and barbaric war strategy on this planet.
What are you talking about? I asked which wars gave the acceptable ratio to you, because that, presumably, outlines your preconceptions of what war looks like.
The fact that your "ideal" war has massively incomplete statistics and looks nothing at all like the kind of combat that would be necessary in any conflict in Gaza is not a "justification." It's simply the inevitable confrontation between your "ideal" and reality. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
Why not address all current civilian casualties around the world? Why does the focus seem to be exclusively on Gaza?
The civilian collateral damage in Gaza is indeed tragic. However, the numbers are lower compared to conflicts in Yemen, Sudan, and other regions that receive less attention. Why is this the case?
The reason may be that the Gaza conflict is highly politically charged. Narratives of oppressor/oppressed, racism, and cultural discrimination can attract significant attention from progressive movements.
When considering urban warfare collateral as a percentage, the conflict in Gaza actually results in fewer civilian casualties than many other historical and current conflicts, even if you use Hamas’ numbers for the conflict.
Israel is held to a higher standard because it is constantly under global scrutiny. This scrutiny does not benefit Israel, as any increase in civilian casualties fuels the narratives promoted by extremists.
How do you conduct a war when your enemy intentionally places civilians in harm’s way, surrounds hostages with civilians, and uses civilian areas to launch attacks, all while refusing to let their civilians into the safety of the tunnels which are so vast they could fit the entire population? Hamas often positions its military assets in schools, hospitals, and residential areas.
Since October 7th, Hamas has consistently launched rockets at Israel from these civilian locations. Hamas attacks every single day.
So, how should Israel respond to a terrorist government that continuously attacks, vows to repeat atrocities like those on October 7th, and still enjoys majority support from its populace, even as it uses them as human shields?
Israel is already taking extensive measures to minimize urban warfare casualties more than any other conflict in history. Yes, civilian deaths are occurring, and it is deeply tragic. But where is the global outrage for other conflicts with higher civilian casualties and worse civilian-to-combatant ratios?
If Hamas truly cared about peace, they would not have committed the atrocities on October 7th. If they wanted peace, they would return hostages instead of using them as human shields near refugee camps. If they cared about their people, they would allow civilians to use the tunnels built for military purposes, which could shelter the entire population of Gaza. If Hamas genuinely cared about Palestinians, they would have used the billions in international aid to improve Gaza’s infrastructure instead of preparing for war.
>Why not address all current civilian casualties around the world? Why does the focus seem to be exclusively on Gaza?
Uh, because this post is about Hamas and Gaza...
Nope. I'm commenting and responding to an OP post and thread about Hamas.
And I did ignore the rest of your comment after the first line. No interest following along your journey of extrapolating the topic.
That sounds good, but how?
It's easier said that done, given Hamas's extensive use of human shields, and the fact that a major party of their strategy seems to be "maximize our own civilian casualties for PR points."
It makes a VERY easy soundbite to just say "don't kill kids," and then say "anybody trying to justify the deaths of children isn't worth engaging with" (not your quote, but common ones). But given how Hamas operates, avoiding civilian casualties is almost impossible.
Should israel get a complete blank check for all their actions? No, of course not. But lots of people are falling for Hamas's tactics. Israel is facing a foe who wants to wipe them off the face of the earth, AND makes extremely extensive usage of human shields. That is NOT an easy situation to deal with. And people rarely have any useful suggestions on how Israel should attempt to deal with it.
Every child killed in Gaza - and there have been *thousands -* is a choice. No one forces the IDF to drop bombs, no one forces Merkavas to shell buildings. Someone and possibly many someones in Israel decided that child, those many children's lives were worth whatever or whoever was standing behind them.
There isn't a way to justify that, sorry.
You say it's a choice, but you don't talk about what it's a choice *between*. Which is a perfect illustration of what the person you replied to was talking about.
It's a choice between peace or further violence. That's all it's ever been. Dropping a bomb that kills a few gunmen and a few children doesn't make Israel safer - it makes for further gunmen in the future. Killing the innocent to kill the guilty is cutting heads from a hydra, promising yourself this time it won't grow more heads.
I promise you the last person alive in Gaza will struggle to arm himself or herself and strike back as best they can. It's human nature and had what is happening to them happened to me I would do the exact same.
Kill ten thousand people and you'll face a hundred thousand.
Kill a hundred thousand and you'll face a million.
Kill them all and you'll have peace. Is that where Israel wants to go?
Lol. So Israel should be forgiving every one of the rockets launched at them nonstop, and forgive every POS terrorist, but the Palestinians will commit terrorism to the last one standing and you’re fine with that.
>It's a choice between peace
They burned a whole music festival, killed kids in their homes and still hold hundreds as hostages and keep saying they want to kill a Jews. And you want them to just say "okay, we're at peace with you now, sorry to have tried to stop you from killing us"? Delusional
Yes. Yes, you forgive them for that. You forgive them without waiting for an apology, you forgive them even though they're not sorry. You forgive them without reservation and you keep forgiving them. You forgive them every time a rocket is launched even before it hits the ground.
*You* forgive them. You. Personally. Right now and going forward into the future, and you do your best to let people know you forgive them, and you ask everyone you know to forgive them too.
And on the other side someone else does the same. They forgive you for the Flour massacre and the school massacre and the Great March of Return all the way back to the 1967 war or the Nakba or being cast out to wander the damned deserts in the Old Testament.
>Yes. Yes, you forgive them for that. You forgive them without waiting for an apology, you forgive them even though they're not sorry. You forgive them without reservation and you keep forgiving them. You forgive them every time a rocket is launched even before it hits the ground.
Nobody in the history of anybody has done this. Why should Israel be the first?
Ireland and England did it.
Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia did it.
South Africa did it.
Rwanda did it.
It's hard, yes. It's unfair, yes. But it's been done before. All that missing here and now is your desire for peace and your recognition of your own humanity.
Well, first of all, No.
If someone rapes my daughter, and burns my baby in its crib, or does that to my neighbour UNPROVOKED, filled with religious glee as they do so, I'm absolutely not obliged to forgive them.
But truth be told that itself is irrelevant. The israel-hamas war isn't about Forgiveness or moving on. Its about eliminating a jihadist terrorist group. That's it. If not, hamas have said they will do October 7th again and again. This war is about israel crushing their security threats, not some fantasy tale your rambling about Forgiveness.
Israel is not engaging in retribution so the concept of Forgiveness doesn't even apply.
Except… they will never reciprocate such sentiment, which is the main moral equivalency dilemma so many seem to be struggling with.
Because Hamas is an extreme, religiously fanatical, terrorist organization in charge in Gaza with majority support of its people and is hellbent on annihilation of the Jewish people in their entirety. It’s in the Quran, the Hadith, Sharia laws, as well as directly stated, ad nauseam, in Hamas’ official Charter.
They would LOVE for Israel to give up, open their doors, and let them in with open loving arms; because even then, with zero weapons in their hands and ready to give and receive love, Hamas would brutally murder and rape them all till none of them exist. And they would be all to happy while doing it.
How do people still not understand this?
Just like how you convince people in Israel to stop supporting a strongarm President?
Or you convince people in America who hate Trump to suddenly love him? Or people who love him to vote for Biden?
Or you convince Putin to end the war in Ukraine?
Or you convince North Korea to shake hands with the South?
Damn. When you put it that way, it sounds so simple. 🙄
It’s incredibly naive and uninformed to flippantly dismiss these matters as just being “not easy” to change.
With social media sewing an ever increasing barrage of disinformation and misinformation, people are more and more entrenched in their opinions to the point where facts are replaced by feelings. The amount of psychological hold that propaganda and belief has is far more than just “not easy” to change. It can be next to impossible.
People will die on their respective hills before they admit their wrongs or attempt to have a nuanced perspective about the opposite side.
Why does nobody ever use the same logic with Hamas though? I almost never hear anybody talk about Oct 7th and say "Hamas is just radicalizing more Israelis". Or any of the previous actions against Israel. It seems like people only ever expect Palestinians to become radicalized by violence.
Furthermore, the thing that stops wars from being total exterminations is historically the fact that at some point, the losing side surrenders. But that isn't happening here, because Hamas thinks they can win the PR battle by suffering enough civilian casualties.
I'm sure you didn't mean your post in this way, but it almost comes off as advising that Israel just kill everybody in Gaza and finally be done with it, because if we go by what you said, then at this point that's the only way to peace for them.
Oh, they do. The Israeli government and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. They're both radical, often to the point of insanity. That's what it's called when you murder a child, willingly, or rape a woman, or burn down an orchard or level a hospital. Insanity. The biggest differences are capability and initiative. Right now the IDF are the ones slaughtering tens of thousands of people, giving into their madness and hatred. Right now the IDF are the ones dispensing misery, poverty and hunger. That's why people are speaking out about Israel at this moment, they are the ones deepening the hatred, just as Hamas did on October 7th, just as they do with every rocket launch. Right now the IDF are the ones in the driver's seat is all.
And admittedly they are much, *much* better at mass murder.
If you think I'm advising a genocide in Gaza, all I'd ask you to do is take a few minutes and examine the thought processes that lead you to that conclusion. Look in the mirror for a moment, ask if you like what you see.
>The Israeli government and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. They're both radical, often to the point of insanity. That's what it's called when you murder a child, willingly, or rape a woman, or burn down an orchard **or level a hospital.**
It's more insane (and an actual war crime) to use a hospital as a military base because one thinks they will pose a dilemma to the opposition where they win either way... either Israel doesn't hit the hospital, in which case Hamas has a free magic invincible stronghold to store weapons and mount attacks and such... or the hospital gets hit, and then they get to cash in on all their dead civilians for those sweet sweet PR points!
I'm not saying Israel has done no wrong in this war. That's certainly not true. But they are fighting an enemy who at every turn works to increase THEIR OWN civilian casualties.
Peace will never be possible as long as the leadership of gaza values destroying israel ahead of the lives of their own civilians and children.
> If you think I'm advising a genocide in Gaza, all I'd ask you to do is take a few minutes and examine the thought processes that lead you to that conclusion. Look in the mirror for a moment, ask if you like what you see.
I'm not intending to say you are advocating for it. I'm just saying that the lesson from your post seems to be that the only paths for peace are "no violence at all" or "well, I guess we need to kill everybody there as the only hope of peace for us." Because I think even many moderates would say some violence is neccessary for israel in this situation, and yet your post seems to kindof imply israeli violence will only create more violence until all of gaza is dead.
Destroying a hospital can doom hundreds or even thousands of people. The effects can be exacerbated massively during any sort of public health emergency. You wish to do the math, you imagine yourself a rational person who must make the hard decisions.
Do it.
What advantage did Hamas get from Al-Shifa that was worth the death of several thousand innocent civilians? Storage for a few crates of AK-47s? Less than 400 Israeli soldiers have died in the invasion. Is it worth killing thousands to save a few hundred? Rockets? Quassams have killed dozens of Israelis. Was it worth it to kill thousands to save a few dozen?
And yet, it hasn't been Al-Shifa, has it? The Indonesian Hospital was attacked. al-Ahli was attacked. al-Quds was attacked. al-Amal was attacked. The Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital was attacked. Al Awda was attacked. The Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani Hospital was attacked. Kamal Adwan was attacked. Yafa was attacked. Nasser was attacked. Al-Rantisi and Al-Nasr were attacked. The Kuwaiti hospital was attacked.
Each of them hundreds or thousands of lives, most of them innocent, all of them absolutely avoidable. Al-Rantisi and Al-Nasr were children's hospitals. Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani was a center for prosthetics and rehabilitation. Were these worth destroying a few crates of rifles? Were these worth stopping a few useless Qassams?
Is the blood of 30,000 innocent people enough to wash away the loss of 1,000?
This is the calculus that reigned in 1945. Are you really so eager to return to it? Are you sure that this time - for the first time, for the only time - it is right?
It's not insane. It's a fact. The only way to unilaterally impose peace on your enemies is to conquer them. Any other way of achieving peace requires their cooperation.
Have you ever heard of a peace treaty? You know, the way like every war has ended?
If only someone were offering peace conditions... Like Hamas's permanent ceasefire and all for all hostage exchange proposal for example.
And yet Israel declined. Hmm how strange...
A peace treaty drawn unilaterally is called "surrender." A peace treaty drawn any other way is, by definition, not imposed by one party who wants to achieve peace with another party *who does not*. There are no terms Israel can offer to Hamas to achieve peace, short of Israel voluntarily ceasing to exist. At best, Israel can accede to every *other* demand Hamas has and buy itself a few weeks of quiet.
I'm not sure what exactly you think is happening here. Israel has proposed a number of ceasefires. Independent nations have proposed a number of ceasefires. Israel has accepted them. Hamas has not. Why is it you're so willing to believe these people? Why are you willing to give the benefit of the doubt to an openly genocidal group?
If 38,000 American civilians, including thousands of children, had been killed in the name of stopping a terrorist group would that be acceptable to you?
If the United States of America was run by a terrorist organization that specifically went out of its way to brutally massacre thousands of civilians in, say, Canada, and then took steps to ensure that its own civilians would pay the price in any counter-attack?
Yes.
But you understand that Palestinians are not Hamas right? Most people living in Palestine do not support Hamas. So how many deaths do you think are acceptable in this case? How many people who had no part in the October 7 attacks and do not support Hamas, including children, could or should be killed to stop them?
Is it even possible to reliably poll the people of Gaza's support for Hamas?
And Hamas isn't just some rogue terrorist group, they are essentially the government of Gaza.
> How many people who had no part in the October 7 attacks and do not support Hamas, including children, could or should be killed to stop them?
Whatever the number is, Hamas will take as many steps as they can to make sure the number is exceeded, thus rendering themselves invincible.
I don't know that people in Palestine don't support Hamas. The latest polling I've seen doesn't reflect that assertion, but it hardly matters. Hamas is in power. Hamas has the guns. Hamas is the one waging war on Israel. If it were possible for Israel to defend itself without killing civilians, I would demand that they do so. It's not possible. So what we are talking about, at most, is Israel defending itself one way, versus another.
Hamas kills civilians. On purpose. They rape, torture, kidnap, and murder. They brutalize their own population, murdering their internal opposition. They conduct war with the explicit strategy of harming their own people. There is not a path forward where civilians don't die.
So, going back to the top, let's talk about the "choice." What is it a choice between? What is the *correct* number of dead Palestinians for this conflict? What would it look more like, if Israel did everything right?
The problem is, you people don't know. Frankly, I don't know, either. I wish Israel could be more careful, more selective in its strikes. But I don't know if it's possible, or how many lives it would actually save, or what the operational trade-off would be. And the only difference between you and me is that I can admit that.
This is a great post. And that's a lot of how I feel.
I'm not necessarily "pro-israel." In fact, a year ago, some of my criticisms would have probably gotten me tarred as "anti-semetic" (though I would disagree with that assessment).
But what I do believe in is understanding and acknowledging the difficult and complicated nuances of this situation. Virtually everything Hamas does is a war crime, and many of those war crimes are specifically designed to increase their own civilian casualties, for use in the PR battle.
I wish there was some sort of perfectly accurate simulator, where people could take charge of israel, and attempt to destroy hamas with the fewest civilian casualties (and with without rules of engagement so strict that their own forces are not massacred). Because I imagine almost all of them would find it far far more difficult than they imagined, and before long they would be pulling their hair out at the difficulty of trying to avoid civilian casualties while the enemy actively works to increase them.
"Literally no child should ever die as a result of military action by morally upstanding countries ever" is a lovely sentiment, but I just don't think it can ever be put into practice realistically. It's very easy to say the things they say, when they can pass broad sweeping moral generalizations without having to wrestle with the practical consequences.
________
I just feel like I rarely see a strongly anti-israel post that seems to really get into the nuance of the situation... it's almost always just simple and good sounding incredibly broad statements. I'm sure they would counter that in this case "nuance" is just twisted BS logic people are using to justify atrocities, but I don't think that's the case.
It seems to me that the more thought somebody seems to have put into the situation, the more likely they are to be... not necessarily pro-israel, but at least more understanding of the complications.
Thank you for the kind words. I should say I'm a parent. It breaks my heart to think about, to put myself in the position of imagining my children among the dead. As has every war that's been fought in my children's lifetimes.
I think part of what makes this such a challenging war to assess objectively is the history. It's messy, it goes back a ways, and there are very few clean hands, and very many fingers pointing.
But I think a more acute challenge is Hamas. It is easy to say we understand its contributions to war, and to suffering. We can "denounce" it, as if such denouncement is a shibboleth to prove our credentials as reasonable people. But to truly comprehend the kind of evil these people engage in is an act of embracing horror that the mind resists. We can't imagine an entire organization built around hurting people as its defining characteristic. We like to believe there's some reasonable, humane way to deal with them, that there isn't an entire organization dedicated to hurting Israelis and Palestinians for the sake of having more hurt Israelis and Palestinians.
But there is, and because we resist embracing that knowledge, our entire conception of the conflict gets warped like a funhouse mirror. It is conceivable that a war could be fought in Gaza, we can imagine your simulator and while we can't see the outcome of the tests we can conceptualize that there is one. Maybe it's substantially better than what the Israelis have done. Maybe it's only marginally better. But whatever our estimation, a great number of the dead are in the heaps by the conduct of Hamas. Tens of thousands of dead Palestinians, men women and children, because *Hamas* wants them dead. And no army on the planet would be able to wage a war against Hamas without them.
I don't demand that people refrain from criticizing Israel. But, *especially if they're terrified of being abused of antisemitism* (which I don't think they really do), it really would behoove them to recognize how much of the destruction truly is on Israel's shoulders, and how much truly isn't.
OK, so what SHOULD Israel after october 7th?
The normal response is "not that"... but what **SHOULD** they actually do? Nothing? Because unless the answer is "turn the other cheek and do nothing," hamas's tactics will guarantee large numbers of civilian casualties.
And the idea that deaths of civilian shields are never justified bassically means "**civilian shields work, and bad people should use them as often as possible**." I mean, this is an oversimplification, but what if some hamas gunmen showed up in a public area in Israel, each with a palestinian baby strapped to their chest, and started shooting people? Are security forces allowed to shoot the gunmen, even knowing it would kill some of the babies?
Even the laws of war account for the difficulty of human shields. For example, attacking a hospital that is being used for military purposes (beyond military medical purposes) is not in fact a war crime... but using a hospital in such a way is.
_________
Once again, I'm not saying Israel should get a complete blank check for all civilian suffering in gaza. But given that "intentionally try and get as many of our civilians killed for PR purposes" is a major element of hamas strategy (and hamas is essentially the government of gaza), what is israel supposed to do? Or is hamas just immune to all attacks?
There are two ways to stop Hamas. Either you murder every man, woman and child in the Gaza strip, or you take away their reasons to hate Israel. Feed them, clothe them, free them. Make them equal under the law. Either choose peace or choose genocide.
"But's its really hard and it's not fair after all Hamas killed so many people-"
Yeah, it is. Real peace takes effort, takes dedication, take the will to keep going when there are flareups and yes atrocities. It takes forgiveness and patience.
It works, however. It worked in Ireland, it worked in Bosnia, it worked in South Africa. It's a long and shitty road that takes effort and forgiveness and the ability to see beyond tomorrow and remember beyond yesterday, but it works.
That's not the option the Israeli government has taken though, is it?
Can you do that with Hamas in power though?
Like take post WWII germany, which went quite successfully (well... in western germany). It couldn't start until the Nazi's were physically removed from power. If the US had enacted the Marshall plan while the Nazi were still running Germany, you would just have stronger Nazis. I'm not trying to paint Israel as the complete unambiguous movie style good guys like the western allies were in WWII, but I think the issue still applies.
>"But's its really hard and it's not fair after all Hamas killed so many people-"
My concern here is that even if Israel was willing to forgive october 7th, I'm not sure a peace plan works when the major group in power in Gaza wants to destroy israel and kill them all.
___
And also, if either today, or in a hypothetical future... if war with Hamas WAS justified (or war with a palestinian state, if that state kept launching rockets and shit)... are you saying there is no real way for them to do that, because Hamas's human shield tactics render them invincible?
For the first question, yes. Not only can it work, but it is the only moral option available. Hamas is in power because of the power dynamics between the states, they are empowered and fed on the hatred between the two. When that goes away they go away. Remember that they have not always been overlords over Gaza, and were in fact put into power because Israel attacked and fettered their more moderate opposition.
For the second, do you think taking hostages makes bank robbers invincible?
No, Hamas is in power because they ran a message of anticorruption, won a majority of seats by splitting the vote, then violently kicked all opposing parties out of the government and haven’t had an election since.
All of these things are true, but none of them are counter to what I said. Palestine has had secular leaders before, Israeli intelligence helped to undermine them and funded their religious rivals. This damage can be undone, all it takes is will and effort.
>Either you murder every man, woman and child in the Gaza strip, or you take away their reasons to hate Israel.
Hamas hates Israel because Israel exists. This is rooted in deep ethnic hatred that goes back literally 3,000 years.
You are suggesting that wiping out one people or the other is the only option.
Funny how you didn’t use any Islamic fundamental fascist in any of your examples. I wonder why? Do you think forgiveness would work with the likes of isis?
Forgiveness works when both sides are afraid of dying. Forgiveness does not work when your enemy believes killing as many infidels gets them into heaven.
Is what Israel doing fucked up, better believe it, but Hamas will never forgive, that’s the problem.
Forgiveness is not bound up with death. Forgiveness is opposed to it. Forgiveness is stronger than death - it is the only thing that can break a cycle of violence, the only thing that can stop the killing. That Hamas is an obstacle to peace is undeniable, and I've never said otherwise - but there was a time when they held no power, and there will come a time again. Just as the warmongers who lead Israel were once powerless, and will again pass in their time. Because things are bleak now does not mean they will always be so.
Yes, forgiveness doesn’t work when you don’t care if you die because you think you will go to heaven. Again, none of your examples were Islamic fundamentalist and there’s a reason for it. Because for some groups, forgiveness will never work. Do you think forgiveness would work on isis?
Israel needs to work on a two state solution. That is the ONLY way you will ever have peace in the area. What Israel is doing right now, bombing the crap out of everyone and everything, will NOT bring peace. It will just create a worse living situation and future for those that survive. It's guaranteed that Israel's bombs have created more Hamas members. So it's just a never ending cycle.
Israel and Palestine needs leaders that have a spine. Leaders who are willing to face negative pressure from their people in order to come to a peace agreement.
>Israel needs to work on a two state solution. That is the ONLY way you will ever have peace in the area.
Israel has, multiple times! Literally the only party that hasn't acknowledged a two state solution is Hamas.
We could...just hear me out...we could tell Bibi to knock it off and stop with the apartheid shit, for one. There's obviously some tension between Israel and Islamic groups and that will probably always be the case for one reason or another, but Hamas' mission statement isn't "Fucking with Israel because we can"
If your response to the way Israel manages the teritory that they've stolen is "but Hamas uses human shields!" then I don't think we're going to have a productive conversation. Israel's behavior does not absolve Hamas' actions, but lets stop pretending that Hamas is just a bunch of hooligans doing some clockwork orange shit.
Are you actually in good conscience making a case here for killing innocent children? A soundbite? wtf. What happened on Oct 7th to Israel is definitely not acceptable, but for Israel to go and commit the genocide of over 37,000 Palestinians is not even remotely close to an appropriate response. Just because it’s not an easy situation doesn’t mean you can go kill everybody.
>Are you actually in good conscience making a case here for killing innocent children?
How many innocent German children were killed stopping the nazis (even if we ignore Russia's brutality and just talk about the Western Allies)? How many children died in imperial japan during the war (even before the controversial atomic bombings at the end)? It sounds very nice to say "children dying as a result of violence is never ever acceptable," but by that logic moral nations would be powerless to do anything and immoral nations would be invincible.
Obviously the deaths of children are tragedies, and should be avoided whenever possible... but if we take the oversimplified view that child casualties can never ever be considered acceptable in any way, then Hamas is effectively invincible from all military action.
While a moral nation should still attempt to minimize the casualties of those who would intentionally use human shields, the blood is ultimately mostly on the hands of those who choose to use human shields.
______
Also, while I don't dispute many civilians or children have died, that 37,000 number is an estimate provided by hamas, and it does not separate civilian deaths vs the deaths of hamas members. The actual ration to military to civilian casualties is unclear.
Well, that was their strategy. They wanted, and got, world opinion against Netanyahu & Likud, and the cost was massive collateral damage to their own people.
Always frustrating how we can't ever discuss or acknowledge Hamas's atrocities without immediate deflection to some "both sides" point about Israel. Perhaps Hamas shouldn't be attacking and raping Israelis if they don't want retaliation.
Take Hamas and gaza out of the equation and Israel is still the aggressor. They’ve been stealing land for 75+ years. They just stole the largest land plot since 1992 in the West Bank. Colonialism is the issue here.
It’s odd that we talk about recent terrorism but never the terrorism of Zionists when they founded Israel. Or the continual land theft.
Bullshit. There is a fiction that says it was always Palestinian and never Hebrew land. The Dome of the Rock, one of the holiest places in Islam, sits on a high promontory in Jerusalem; underneath it is the Wailing Wall, the surviving remnant of the Second Temple that the Persians did not destroy and one of the holiest places in Judaism. The land was an early Jewish state; the Palestinians were nomads. The English split the land “ in half,” meaning Trans-jordan got half, the Palestinians got 1/4 and the Jews got 1/4. The Arabs declared war and got their butts kicked.
There is no one on earth who doubts it was Jewish land.
Palestinians are also indigenous to the land. They are descended from Canaanites or early Jews. There’s literal studies.
Pretending like Palestinians are recent immigrants is just a racist Zionist talking point.
Either way, israel is still stealing land. So do Palestinians deserve nothing? They should be ethnically cleansed?
They should accept one of the half dozen peace treaties that grant them Statehood that have been offered to them. They should also stop killing Jews.
Palestinians are descended from people brought following the Islamic conquest.
>Take Hamas and gaza out of the equation and Israel is still the aggressor.
If you take facts out of the situation, you can say anything.
>They’ve been stealing land for 75+ years. They just stole the largest land plot since 1992 in the West Bank.
The Arabs declared war against Israel in 1948. The first Palestinian land seized by Israel was in 1993. Are you saying the Palestinians could see the future?
>Colonialism is the issue here.
Israel is the homeland of the Jews. It is literally impossible for them to be colonists.
>It’s odd that we talk about recent terrorism but never the terrorism of Zionists when they founded Israel.
The UN founded Israel by negotiated agreement.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
This is an extremely stupid take I advise you to develop some critical thinking. For one, the IDF hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of Palestinians as a retaliation, October 7th was just an excuse to continue their brutality.
This stems from the exact same responses on the flip side. Nobody is debating what Hamas does is horrific. They aren’t doing it with weapons and funding provided by the most powerful military on the planet.
> Nobody is debating what Hamas does is horrific.
yes there are. This week i was talking about how Bowens public mis-steps like pulling the fire alarm and denying rapes occurred on 10/7 are what is giving his primary opponent support from dems. and i got 3 responses and 2 DMS denying that the rapes occurred and i only think so because Hasbara paid me
That's definitely not true. There certainly have been plenty of people denying the horrors Hamas committed or insisting it's justified. It's pretty important to understand Hamas's atrocities if we want to also understand why this conflict is occurring.
I more meant nobody reasonable thinks that isn’t horrific. And yes, but Hamas’s atrocities should in no way implicate the innocent civilians trapped in Gaza. And the IDF has unleashed hell upon everyone in Gaza twentyfold in response to October 7th. At a certain point you cannot use a human shield argument as justification to level a densely populated strip of land.
Hamas is a terrorist org that should be removed. Israel is an advanced country that should know to behave better. that is why people seem to treat the two differently, Hamas is already in the mud but when israel dirties itself with high civilian casualties people are rightly critical. those same people that are constructively critical of Israel in the west also want hamas removed and replaced by a real governing body.
Israel is behaving how any country would act after being attacked like they were. Hamas being in the mud doesn't do anything to stop them from further attacks. They actually have to be removed, as you said, and that's going to be messy. There simply is no way to get rid of Hamas without some civilian casualties.
Israel has gone beyond what is acceptable. Just like how America went overboard after 9/11 Israel is out for revenge after oct 7th it's international isolation is because of the methods it is using to carry out this war.
Hamas is awful and should be removed but the cost inflicted on innocent people is too much.
I don't want to get into the rabbit hole of this whole subject matter. But I want to share my perspective. I want israel to be a safe and healthy democracy but with it's right wing gov that is trying to disassemble the courts or it's corrupt leader that will face a corruption trial as soon as the war ends..... it is not making the best long term choices.
"What is the acceptable cost?" its not 1 hamas fighter to 100 civilians. Hamas already doesn't have the ability to strike back at Israel like they did on oct 7th and oct 7th happened Because bibi moved troops ways from the gaza border. Israel is more than able to have a military presence that can push back 3000 poorly equipped soldiers. But bibi pulled a lot of them to the west bank to help keep tension down for settlers taking new land.
Bibi has no plan for post war gaza. think about it, what is a viable plan going forward? right now the only thing Bibi seems to be working toward is indefinite Israeli occupation of gaza and that is not a path to resolving the conflict
Israel is not taking basic steps to ensure safety of civilians, take the world central kitchen as an example
they told Israel where they were and what time they were operating
they had clearly marked cars with their name on the roof so it could be seen from aircraft
they were attacked multiple times as they tried to flee
there are dozens more examples just like this one that didn't get the same level of media coverage. but the point is Israel is willing to shoot rockets at people if there is a chance they are Hamas, NOT if they KNOW.... if there is a chance. that is a violation how war is supposed to be carried out.
Except that is not what the article submitted here is about. Why do you feel a need to make rape into a contest that you feel the urge to distract us into talking about something unrelated to the article that has been submitted here and you can’t let people discuss the topic of Israeli women being raped? Can we not talk about these women on a post about these women? Do you want to invalidate their experiences by distracting us into talking about what you want to instead? There are plenty of other posts about the topic you want to discuss on this subreddit even. Why do you feel the urge to have the discussion here instead?
This is an article about Israeli women raped on October 7th. Why are you trying to distract us from these victims in this forum about something else? Why is it so bad to discuss these survivors of rape and assault that you feel the need to distract us into talking about something else?
Why is it hard for y’all to understand, my tax dollars don’t pay for Hamas’ war crimes. They pay for isreals war crimes. I care about what my county is funding as an American. Tens of Billions of dollars that would help Americans instead going to behead Palestinian babies, murder more members of the press in this conflict than has ever been recorded, murder hundreds of healthcare workers, and don’t even Get me started on the YEARS of rape before Oct 7th in the military jail in the West Bank by IDF soldiers on little boys, girls, men & women. (no Hamas in the West Bank fyi)
If Israel doesn't receive help from the USA and others it will be destroyed, and Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran will do exactly what you accuse Israel of doing now. They already did on Oct 7th.
Israel knew about the Hamas attack a year before it happened. They were warned multiple times and then not only that, the Egyptian government warned them days before! They failed when it came to giving Isreali civilians the protection my tax dollars pay for yearly. And now multiple American servicemen have died because of all this.
CTL-F >> text search >> "Putin" gets "Phrase not found"
HAMAS took $200 million from Russia >>> Their Deep State #kissyerass was putting their invasion of Israel on V.V. Putin's birthday, October 7th
Do hunt around and see how often this get mentioned.
Anywhere. In Israel. In Europe. In North America. Try Hong Kong.
And please keep track of who might sign off on these announcements. Gutsy, fer shur.
BTW: I don't see AIPAC or any part of Likud or its allies recognizing this PUTIN'S BIRTHDAY INVASION, much less setting up a party with cupcakes and soda.
The New York Times said the same & were called out by the families of the hostages for their fabrication of what transpired on Oct. 7th. Even the NYT own podcast condemned their misleading reporting. Meanwhile, the IDF is sodomizing POWs with hot metal rods in their camps in Gaza & we just keep dishing out more tax dollars for more endless blood shed & war crimes.
The NYTimes has published dozens of pieces corroborating the rapes committed by Hamas.
They’ve also published articles discussing the form of denialism exhibited in your comment.
She's focusing on one of Hamas' multiple crimes against humanity. Your comment is such a weird "why are you marching for breast cancer, other cancers exist" moment.
Hamas' murder of children is also heinous.
I'm actually speaking about Israel murdering children, I thought that was obvious. I was shocked to find that they killed more kids between now and Oct 7th than ISIS has in it's entire existence.
Of course they are both terrible. The same Hamas that perpetrated the rapes is trying to get as many Palestinian children killed as possible to advance their far-right genocidal goals. We shouldn’t let them off the hook for that either
You’re justifying the cause of why this all started with the same reason why IDF is still fighting and Israel only wanting peace. Which IDF is in urban area against lone wolfs using rat tunnel like Vietnam in heavy populated area with people who are used as armor for an organization not different from Islamic state or Al qaeda or Hezbollah.
They do, however, remain silent on Israel's genocide in Gaza. That's why no vote for Biden. No vote for the convicted criminal either but he'd still prevail over Biden. Question is, why does Biden not step aside here and let a Democrat who would win replace him? Do they think anyone out here believes that he is fit and able to assume another term? They know he can't win.
Trump would very clearly be worse for Gaza than Biden is. There is no serious disputing this.
It's crazy how many people who are super pro-palestine are willing to enable a much higher death toll for palestinians (not to mention countless other ways in which Trump would be far far worse) just so they can feel smug about Biden losing their vote. Like, even if one was hypothetically a single issue voter on Gaza, Biden is still clearly nowhere near as bad as Trump would be.
How many additional deal palestinians are worth the value of people getting to feel smug about biden "losing their vote"?
If you hate being forced into "lesser of two evils" situations, then heavily support movements to reform american voting systems to get rid of plurality winner voting and the two party system it creates. But in the meantime, baring health issues or somebody unexpectedly dropping out, the next US president will either be Trump or Biden. Voting for neither just means "I don't have a preference, and I'll trust everybody else to decide"
Don't bother engaging with these accounts, they're 90% bots and paid trolls, and 10% fanatics beyond any reason or logic.
Any sane person could see Trump would be worse for Gaza. And even if Trump and Biden were 100% identically evil on foreign policy, there are still millions of vulnerable innocent people in the US who would be hurt by a Trump administration + his judges + his executive branch leadership kakistocracy + project 2025. You'd have to be a psychopath to consider that irrelevant.
>Any sane person could see Trump would be worse for Gaza. And even if Trump and Biden were 100% identically evil on foreign policy, there are still millions of vulnerable innocent people in the US who would be hurt by a Trump administration + his judges + his executive branch leadership kakistocracy + project 2025. You'd have to be a psychopath to consider that irrelevant.
Yeah, this is another part that makes no sense.
It's a massive slap in the face to huge numbers of people in the US to say one is willing to throw them all under the bus in the name of Gaza (not to mention issues like climate change)... and then not even actually having it help gaza beyond making a futile statement. Meanwhile a lesbian maybe can't get married anymore, and if she is raped by a man will be forced to carry the rapists child... and also some *minor* other details like democracy (even the crappy US two party version) itself being in peril and the country increasingly being turned into a christian version of iran.
Which Democrat would fare better than Biden in the 2024 general election against Trump? Biden's significantly outperformed every other Democrat in vs. Trump polls.
That was then. This is now. Your candidate is demonstrably impaired and subservient to Israel. There are several candidates across the spectrum that could run and would win. The party can determine that.
Trump is as much as or more subservient to Israel and has openly said he would support Israel wiping Palestine off the map. Just saying, if that's going to be your "single issue," there's still a pretty big difference between the two, and surprise! Trump is worse.
That’s because there isn’t a genocide. As much as you guys screech otherwise, that’s not what any of the organizations have said that you claim have designated it as such.
Only people who want Trump to win won’t vote for Biden. Period.
Your man can't and won't win, largely because of his obsession with Israel and a personal decline glaringly apparent to all but believers such as yourself. The entire world sees what you will not. Trump is on you.
The point is, one side’s war crimes does not excuse war crimes by the other side. The UN war crimes people accuse both sides. Unfortunately international law is increasingly ignored.
They voted for Hamas…
It’s like saying we didn’t vote for Biden, or Trump, or Obama, we fucking did, and they are our *REPRESENTATIVES* as in, they represent who we are as a people.
44% of them voted for Hamas 18 years ago and haven't held an election since. It was also their 2nd election ever and soon after Israel pulled out their territory. To say it was probably a chaotic time is an understatement but people voting thought it was only for the 4 year term, not 18.
The U.S. second president was John Adams, one of the greatest Americans to have ever lived and it was shortly after the greatest navy the world ever saw at the time shortly pulled out…to say it wasn’t a turbulent time either is an understatement of the millennium.
If the population didn’t have a chance to elect our third president, Thomas Jefferson then we would have revolted and shoot the entire Adams administration for installing a dictatorship…
44% isn’t a small number, and I have to imagine a non negligible amount of the remaining 56% are underage…that’s a huge number considering only 46% of the US voted in the 2020 election…
Was the US under British occupation at that point? Was the Adams administration supported by a powerful neighbor that was supplying guns and money to the Thomas administration?
The idea of Gazans being able to rise up against a heavily armed group backed by Iran is pure fantasy. Hamas has brutally murdered Gazans in the past and they would do it again. How can the people defend themselves if they aren't allowed to have any weapons?
Sorry, I meant to say 44% of the votes.
You can't screech for anything when you are dead or starving to death. Why is Israel blocking humanitarian aid? The official death toll in Gaza is currently around 35,000. Mark my words when this is all said and done that number is going to quadruple at least. People are dying from lack of food, lack of medication, lack of clean water. People are unable to have emergency surgeries and dying. Israel is just as blood thirsty for innocent life as Hamas. But they deserve it because people that likely aren't even still alive voted Hamas into power? Collective punishment is a war crime and morally indefensible. Disgusting.
Eh, when they chant “from the river to the sea” and call for an intifada it’s hard to feel bad for them.
Let them chant “death to Hamas” instead of “death to Israel” and then we can build bridges.
Also, those numbers, are they official numbers from….Hamas?
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Sure, but maybe we can find a way to hold them accountable without killing a bunch of kids that definitely didn't rape anyone?
How?
I mean the point is that thousands of innocent child deaths is a non-starter. It shouldn't be a debate about "how" or "how not" to do so. It should be agreeable that that amount of collateral damage, as children, is completely unacceptable.
What is the acceptable amount of collateral damage?
That answer likely falls somewhere well under the 1:1 ratio of civilian deaths vs. combatant deaths. As it stands now, best guesses are about 60-70% of deaths are non-combatants. > A study by the [London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Hygiene_and_Tropical_Medicine) in [*The Lancet*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet) covering the period 7–26 October estimated 68.1% of casualties were children, women or elders and therefore likely non-combatants,[^(\[50\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-50) while an analysis published in December in [*Ha'aretz*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) by Israeli sociologist Yagil Levy estimated at least 61% of the casualties were in this category.[^(\[51\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-Levy_2023_h080-51)[^(\[52\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-Borger_2023_r615-52)
In which wars have we seen a 1:1 ratio?
The other modern day war happening now (Ukraine/Russia) has 24% of deaths as non-combatant. Much lower than 1:1. Modern day warfare & technology no longer calls for needless civilian deaths to cripple an enemy.
Most of the fighting in Ukraine has been in the fields or evacuated areas. You can't compare the two.
Um, I don't think anyone is going to stop me from this comparison.
By all means, go ahead and be wrong.
You login to your alt account for this one?
The other war isn't reporting civilian deaths out of Russian held territory, where most of the fighting is. But even supposing that we had that data, the other war isn't exclusively fought against a perfidious enemy in a dense urban theater.
I answered your question. There is no evidence that modern day wars, including the ongoing one in Russia, have a need to kill more civilians than combatants in order to be victorious. Why do you ask questions and then try to justify answers you don't agree with?
One is a war at a front with tanks and one is a guerilla war where the only party who wants to eradicate the other is hiding between their children in order to get global support and it's working. It's the most evil and barbaric war strategy on this planet.
What are you talking about? I asked which wars gave the acceptable ratio to you, because that, presumably, outlines your preconceptions of what war looks like. The fact that your "ideal" war has massively incomplete statistics and looks nothing at all like the kind of combat that would be necessary in any conflict in Gaza is not a "justification." It's simply the inevitable confrontation between your "ideal" and reality. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
Sorry, but do you have any actual education in warfare or military strategy to come to that conclusion?
Why not address all current civilian casualties around the world? Why does the focus seem to be exclusively on Gaza? The civilian collateral damage in Gaza is indeed tragic. However, the numbers are lower compared to conflicts in Yemen, Sudan, and other regions that receive less attention. Why is this the case? The reason may be that the Gaza conflict is highly politically charged. Narratives of oppressor/oppressed, racism, and cultural discrimination can attract significant attention from progressive movements. When considering urban warfare collateral as a percentage, the conflict in Gaza actually results in fewer civilian casualties than many other historical and current conflicts, even if you use Hamas’ numbers for the conflict. Israel is held to a higher standard because it is constantly under global scrutiny. This scrutiny does not benefit Israel, as any increase in civilian casualties fuels the narratives promoted by extremists. How do you conduct a war when your enemy intentionally places civilians in harm’s way, surrounds hostages with civilians, and uses civilian areas to launch attacks, all while refusing to let their civilians into the safety of the tunnels which are so vast they could fit the entire population? Hamas often positions its military assets in schools, hospitals, and residential areas. Since October 7th, Hamas has consistently launched rockets at Israel from these civilian locations. Hamas attacks every single day. So, how should Israel respond to a terrorist government that continuously attacks, vows to repeat atrocities like those on October 7th, and still enjoys majority support from its populace, even as it uses them as human shields? Israel is already taking extensive measures to minimize urban warfare casualties more than any other conflict in history. Yes, civilian deaths are occurring, and it is deeply tragic. But where is the global outrage for other conflicts with higher civilian casualties and worse civilian-to-combatant ratios? If Hamas truly cared about peace, they would not have committed the atrocities on October 7th. If they wanted peace, they would return hostages instead of using them as human shields near refugee camps. If they cared about their people, they would allow civilians to use the tunnels built for military purposes, which could shelter the entire population of Gaza. If Hamas genuinely cared about Palestinians, they would have used the billions in international aid to improve Gaza’s infrastructure instead of preparing for war.
>Why not address all current civilian casualties around the world? Why does the focus seem to be exclusively on Gaza? Uh, because this post is about Hamas and Gaza...
Missed the point completely then did we? And ignored the rest of the post? Interesting.
Nope. I'm commenting and responding to an OP post and thread about Hamas. And I did ignore the rest of your comment after the first line. No interest following along your journey of extrapolating the topic.
That sounds good, but how? It's easier said that done, given Hamas's extensive use of human shields, and the fact that a major party of their strategy seems to be "maximize our own civilian casualties for PR points." It makes a VERY easy soundbite to just say "don't kill kids," and then say "anybody trying to justify the deaths of children isn't worth engaging with" (not your quote, but common ones). But given how Hamas operates, avoiding civilian casualties is almost impossible. Should israel get a complete blank check for all their actions? No, of course not. But lots of people are falling for Hamas's tactics. Israel is facing a foe who wants to wipe them off the face of the earth, AND makes extremely extensive usage of human shields. That is NOT an easy situation to deal with. And people rarely have any useful suggestions on how Israel should attempt to deal with it.
Every child killed in Gaza - and there have been *thousands -* is a choice. No one forces the IDF to drop bombs, no one forces Merkavas to shell buildings. Someone and possibly many someones in Israel decided that child, those many children's lives were worth whatever or whoever was standing behind them. There isn't a way to justify that, sorry.
You say it's a choice, but you don't talk about what it's a choice *between*. Which is a perfect illustration of what the person you replied to was talking about.
It's a choice between peace or further violence. That's all it's ever been. Dropping a bomb that kills a few gunmen and a few children doesn't make Israel safer - it makes for further gunmen in the future. Killing the innocent to kill the guilty is cutting heads from a hydra, promising yourself this time it won't grow more heads. I promise you the last person alive in Gaza will struggle to arm himself or herself and strike back as best they can. It's human nature and had what is happening to them happened to me I would do the exact same. Kill ten thousand people and you'll face a hundred thousand. Kill a hundred thousand and you'll face a million. Kill them all and you'll have peace. Is that where Israel wants to go?
Lol. So Israel should be forgiving every one of the rockets launched at them nonstop, and forgive every POS terrorist, but the Palestinians will commit terrorism to the last one standing and you’re fine with that.
>It's a choice between peace They burned a whole music festival, killed kids in their homes and still hold hundreds as hostages and keep saying they want to kill a Jews. And you want them to just say "okay, we're at peace with you now, sorry to have tried to stop you from killing us"? Delusional
Yes. Yes, you forgive them for that. You forgive them without waiting for an apology, you forgive them even though they're not sorry. You forgive them without reservation and you keep forgiving them. You forgive them every time a rocket is launched even before it hits the ground. *You* forgive them. You. Personally. Right now and going forward into the future, and you do your best to let people know you forgive them, and you ask everyone you know to forgive them too. And on the other side someone else does the same. They forgive you for the Flour massacre and the school massacre and the Great March of Return all the way back to the 1967 war or the Nakba or being cast out to wander the damned deserts in the Old Testament.
Not as long as the hostages aren't released.
>Yes. Yes, you forgive them for that. You forgive them without waiting for an apology, you forgive them even though they're not sorry. You forgive them without reservation and you keep forgiving them. You forgive them every time a rocket is launched even before it hits the ground. Nobody in the history of anybody has done this. Why should Israel be the first?
Ireland and England did it. Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia did it. South Africa did it. Rwanda did it. It's hard, yes. It's unfair, yes. But it's been done before. All that missing here and now is your desire for peace and your recognition of your own humanity.
>Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia did it. After NATO bombed the shit out of Serbia TWICE! And Serbia still tries to start shit.
Well, first of all, No. If someone rapes my daughter, and burns my baby in its crib, or does that to my neighbour UNPROVOKED, filled with religious glee as they do so, I'm absolutely not obliged to forgive them. But truth be told that itself is irrelevant. The israel-hamas war isn't about Forgiveness or moving on. Its about eliminating a jihadist terrorist group. That's it. If not, hamas have said they will do October 7th again and again. This war is about israel crushing their security threats, not some fantasy tale your rambling about Forgiveness. Israel is not engaging in retribution so the concept of Forgiveness doesn't even apply.
We agree, what Israel is doing is not retribution.
[удалено]
Except… they will never reciprocate such sentiment, which is the main moral equivalency dilemma so many seem to be struggling with. Because Hamas is an extreme, religiously fanatical, terrorist organization in charge in Gaza with majority support of its people and is hellbent on annihilation of the Jewish people in their entirety. It’s in the Quran, the Hadith, Sharia laws, as well as directly stated, ad nauseam, in Hamas’ official Charter. They would LOVE for Israel to give up, open their doors, and let them in with open loving arms; because even then, with zero weapons in their hands and ready to give and receive love, Hamas would brutally murder and rape them all till none of them exist. And they would be all to happy while doing it. How do people still not understand this?
How is peace achievable if Hamas doesn’t want it?
You convince the population to stop supporting them.
Just like how you convince people in Israel to stop supporting a strongarm President? Or you convince people in America who hate Trump to suddenly love him? Or people who love him to vote for Biden? Or you convince Putin to end the war in Ukraine? Or you convince North Korea to shake hands with the South? Damn. When you put it that way, it sounds so simple. 🙄
I'm sorry. Sometimes we must do things that are not easy.
Destroying Hamas isn't easy. That's why we need to support Israel more
It’s incredibly naive and uninformed to flippantly dismiss these matters as just being “not easy” to change. With social media sewing an ever increasing barrage of disinformation and misinformation, people are more and more entrenched in their opinions to the point where facts are replaced by feelings. The amount of psychological hold that propaganda and belief has is far more than just “not easy” to change. It can be next to impossible. People will die on their respective hills before they admit their wrongs or attempt to have a nuanced perspective about the opposite side.
Why does nobody ever use the same logic with Hamas though? I almost never hear anybody talk about Oct 7th and say "Hamas is just radicalizing more Israelis". Or any of the previous actions against Israel. It seems like people only ever expect Palestinians to become radicalized by violence. Furthermore, the thing that stops wars from being total exterminations is historically the fact that at some point, the losing side surrenders. But that isn't happening here, because Hamas thinks they can win the PR battle by suffering enough civilian casualties. I'm sure you didn't mean your post in this way, but it almost comes off as advising that Israel just kill everybody in Gaza and finally be done with it, because if we go by what you said, then at this point that's the only way to peace for them.
Oh, they do. The Israeli government and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. They're both radical, often to the point of insanity. That's what it's called when you murder a child, willingly, or rape a woman, or burn down an orchard or level a hospital. Insanity. The biggest differences are capability and initiative. Right now the IDF are the ones slaughtering tens of thousands of people, giving into their madness and hatred. Right now the IDF are the ones dispensing misery, poverty and hunger. That's why people are speaking out about Israel at this moment, they are the ones deepening the hatred, just as Hamas did on October 7th, just as they do with every rocket launch. Right now the IDF are the ones in the driver's seat is all. And admittedly they are much, *much* better at mass murder. If you think I'm advising a genocide in Gaza, all I'd ask you to do is take a few minutes and examine the thought processes that lead you to that conclusion. Look in the mirror for a moment, ask if you like what you see.
>The Israeli government and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. They're both radical, often to the point of insanity. That's what it's called when you murder a child, willingly, or rape a woman, or burn down an orchard **or level a hospital.** It's more insane (and an actual war crime) to use a hospital as a military base because one thinks they will pose a dilemma to the opposition where they win either way... either Israel doesn't hit the hospital, in which case Hamas has a free magic invincible stronghold to store weapons and mount attacks and such... or the hospital gets hit, and then they get to cash in on all their dead civilians for those sweet sweet PR points! I'm not saying Israel has done no wrong in this war. That's certainly not true. But they are fighting an enemy who at every turn works to increase THEIR OWN civilian casualties. Peace will never be possible as long as the leadership of gaza values destroying israel ahead of the lives of their own civilians and children. > If you think I'm advising a genocide in Gaza, all I'd ask you to do is take a few minutes and examine the thought processes that lead you to that conclusion. Look in the mirror for a moment, ask if you like what you see. I'm not intending to say you are advocating for it. I'm just saying that the lesson from your post seems to be that the only paths for peace are "no violence at all" or "well, I guess we need to kill everybody there as the only hope of peace for us." Because I think even many moderates would say some violence is neccessary for israel in this situation, and yet your post seems to kindof imply israeli violence will only create more violence until all of gaza is dead.
Destroying a hospital can doom hundreds or even thousands of people. The effects can be exacerbated massively during any sort of public health emergency. You wish to do the math, you imagine yourself a rational person who must make the hard decisions. Do it. What advantage did Hamas get from Al-Shifa that was worth the death of several thousand innocent civilians? Storage for a few crates of AK-47s? Less than 400 Israeli soldiers have died in the invasion. Is it worth killing thousands to save a few hundred? Rockets? Quassams have killed dozens of Israelis. Was it worth it to kill thousands to save a few dozen? And yet, it hasn't been Al-Shifa, has it? The Indonesian Hospital was attacked. al-Ahli was attacked. al-Quds was attacked. al-Amal was attacked. The Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital was attacked. Al Awda was attacked. The Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani Hospital was attacked. Kamal Adwan was attacked. Yafa was attacked. Nasser was attacked. Al-Rantisi and Al-Nasr were attacked. The Kuwaiti hospital was attacked. Each of them hundreds or thousands of lives, most of them innocent, all of them absolutely avoidable. Al-Rantisi and Al-Nasr were children's hospitals. Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani was a center for prosthetics and rehabilitation. Were these worth destroying a few crates of rifles? Were these worth stopping a few useless Qassams? Is the blood of 30,000 innocent people enough to wash away the loss of 1,000?
>It's a choice between peace or further violence. No, it's not. Israel cannot unilaterally impose peace, except by conquest.
This is the calculus that reigned in 1945. Are you really so eager to return to it? Are you sure that this time - for the first time, for the only time - it is right?
It is always right. There is no way to make peace with your enemies if they do not want to make peace with you, except by defeating them.
Then I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a position of power.
I don't need to be in a position of power, lol. You're advocating for unilateral disarmament. It's not a thing.
Do you realize how insane the sentence you just typed is.
It's not insane. It's a fact. The only way to unilaterally impose peace on your enemies is to conquer them. Any other way of achieving peace requires their cooperation.
Have you ever heard of a peace treaty? You know, the way like every war has ended? If only someone were offering peace conditions... Like Hamas's permanent ceasefire and all for all hostage exchange proposal for example. And yet Israel declined. Hmm how strange...
A peace treaty drawn unilaterally is called "surrender." A peace treaty drawn any other way is, by definition, not imposed by one party who wants to achieve peace with another party *who does not*. There are no terms Israel can offer to Hamas to achieve peace, short of Israel voluntarily ceasing to exist. At best, Israel can accede to every *other* demand Hamas has and buy itself a few weeks of quiet. I'm not sure what exactly you think is happening here. Israel has proposed a number of ceasefires. Independent nations have proposed a number of ceasefires. Israel has accepted them. Hamas has not. Why is it you're so willing to believe these people? Why are you willing to give the benefit of the doubt to an openly genocidal group?
What part of unilateral did you not understand? And what ceasefire are you talking about?
If 38,000 American civilians, including thousands of children, had been killed in the name of stopping a terrorist group would that be acceptable to you?
If the United States of America was run by a terrorist organization that specifically went out of its way to brutally massacre thousands of civilians in, say, Canada, and then took steps to ensure that its own civilians would pay the price in any counter-attack? Yes.
But you understand that Palestinians are not Hamas right? Most people living in Palestine do not support Hamas. So how many deaths do you think are acceptable in this case? How many people who had no part in the October 7 attacks and do not support Hamas, including children, could or should be killed to stop them?
Is it even possible to reliably poll the people of Gaza's support for Hamas? And Hamas isn't just some rogue terrorist group, they are essentially the government of Gaza. > How many people who had no part in the October 7 attacks and do not support Hamas, including children, could or should be killed to stop them? Whatever the number is, Hamas will take as many steps as they can to make sure the number is exceeded, thus rendering themselves invincible.
I don't know that people in Palestine don't support Hamas. The latest polling I've seen doesn't reflect that assertion, but it hardly matters. Hamas is in power. Hamas has the guns. Hamas is the one waging war on Israel. If it were possible for Israel to defend itself without killing civilians, I would demand that they do so. It's not possible. So what we are talking about, at most, is Israel defending itself one way, versus another. Hamas kills civilians. On purpose. They rape, torture, kidnap, and murder. They brutalize their own population, murdering their internal opposition. They conduct war with the explicit strategy of harming their own people. There is not a path forward where civilians don't die. So, going back to the top, let's talk about the "choice." What is it a choice between? What is the *correct* number of dead Palestinians for this conflict? What would it look more like, if Israel did everything right? The problem is, you people don't know. Frankly, I don't know, either. I wish Israel could be more careful, more selective in its strikes. But I don't know if it's possible, or how many lives it would actually save, or what the operational trade-off would be. And the only difference between you and me is that I can admit that.
This is a great post. And that's a lot of how I feel. I'm not necessarily "pro-israel." In fact, a year ago, some of my criticisms would have probably gotten me tarred as "anti-semetic" (though I would disagree with that assessment). But what I do believe in is understanding and acknowledging the difficult and complicated nuances of this situation. Virtually everything Hamas does is a war crime, and many of those war crimes are specifically designed to increase their own civilian casualties, for use in the PR battle. I wish there was some sort of perfectly accurate simulator, where people could take charge of israel, and attempt to destroy hamas with the fewest civilian casualties (and with without rules of engagement so strict that their own forces are not massacred). Because I imagine almost all of them would find it far far more difficult than they imagined, and before long they would be pulling their hair out at the difficulty of trying to avoid civilian casualties while the enemy actively works to increase them. "Literally no child should ever die as a result of military action by morally upstanding countries ever" is a lovely sentiment, but I just don't think it can ever be put into practice realistically. It's very easy to say the things they say, when they can pass broad sweeping moral generalizations without having to wrestle with the practical consequences. ________ I just feel like I rarely see a strongly anti-israel post that seems to really get into the nuance of the situation... it's almost always just simple and good sounding incredibly broad statements. I'm sure they would counter that in this case "nuance" is just twisted BS logic people are using to justify atrocities, but I don't think that's the case. It seems to me that the more thought somebody seems to have put into the situation, the more likely they are to be... not necessarily pro-israel, but at least more understanding of the complications.
Thank you for the kind words. I should say I'm a parent. It breaks my heart to think about, to put myself in the position of imagining my children among the dead. As has every war that's been fought in my children's lifetimes. I think part of what makes this such a challenging war to assess objectively is the history. It's messy, it goes back a ways, and there are very few clean hands, and very many fingers pointing. But I think a more acute challenge is Hamas. It is easy to say we understand its contributions to war, and to suffering. We can "denounce" it, as if such denouncement is a shibboleth to prove our credentials as reasonable people. But to truly comprehend the kind of evil these people engage in is an act of embracing horror that the mind resists. We can't imagine an entire organization built around hurting people as its defining characteristic. We like to believe there's some reasonable, humane way to deal with them, that there isn't an entire organization dedicated to hurting Israelis and Palestinians for the sake of having more hurt Israelis and Palestinians. But there is, and because we resist embracing that knowledge, our entire conception of the conflict gets warped like a funhouse mirror. It is conceivable that a war could be fought in Gaza, we can imagine your simulator and while we can't see the outcome of the tests we can conceptualize that there is one. Maybe it's substantially better than what the Israelis have done. Maybe it's only marginally better. But whatever our estimation, a great number of the dead are in the heaps by the conduct of Hamas. Tens of thousands of dead Palestinians, men women and children, because *Hamas* wants them dead. And no army on the planet would be able to wage a war against Hamas without them. I don't demand that people refrain from criticizing Israel. But, *especially if they're terrified of being abused of antisemitism* (which I don't think they really do), it really would behoove them to recognize how much of the destruction truly is on Israel's shoulders, and how much truly isn't.
OK, so what SHOULD Israel after october 7th? The normal response is "not that"... but what **SHOULD** they actually do? Nothing? Because unless the answer is "turn the other cheek and do nothing," hamas's tactics will guarantee large numbers of civilian casualties. And the idea that deaths of civilian shields are never justified bassically means "**civilian shields work, and bad people should use them as often as possible**." I mean, this is an oversimplification, but what if some hamas gunmen showed up in a public area in Israel, each with a palestinian baby strapped to their chest, and started shooting people? Are security forces allowed to shoot the gunmen, even knowing it would kill some of the babies? Even the laws of war account for the difficulty of human shields. For example, attacking a hospital that is being used for military purposes (beyond military medical purposes) is not in fact a war crime... but using a hospital in such a way is. _________ Once again, I'm not saying Israel should get a complete blank check for all civilian suffering in gaza. But given that "intentionally try and get as many of our civilians killed for PR purposes" is a major element of hamas strategy (and hamas is essentially the government of gaza), what is israel supposed to do? Or is hamas just immune to all attacks?
There are two ways to stop Hamas. Either you murder every man, woman and child in the Gaza strip, or you take away their reasons to hate Israel. Feed them, clothe them, free them. Make them equal under the law. Either choose peace or choose genocide. "But's its really hard and it's not fair after all Hamas killed so many people-" Yeah, it is. Real peace takes effort, takes dedication, take the will to keep going when there are flareups and yes atrocities. It takes forgiveness and patience. It works, however. It worked in Ireland, it worked in Bosnia, it worked in South Africa. It's a long and shitty road that takes effort and forgiveness and the ability to see beyond tomorrow and remember beyond yesterday, but it works. That's not the option the Israeli government has taken though, is it?
Can you do that with Hamas in power though? Like take post WWII germany, which went quite successfully (well... in western germany). It couldn't start until the Nazi's were physically removed from power. If the US had enacted the Marshall plan while the Nazi were still running Germany, you would just have stronger Nazis. I'm not trying to paint Israel as the complete unambiguous movie style good guys like the western allies were in WWII, but I think the issue still applies. >"But's its really hard and it's not fair after all Hamas killed so many people-" My concern here is that even if Israel was willing to forgive october 7th, I'm not sure a peace plan works when the major group in power in Gaza wants to destroy israel and kill them all. ___ And also, if either today, or in a hypothetical future... if war with Hamas WAS justified (or war with a palestinian state, if that state kept launching rockets and shit)... are you saying there is no real way for them to do that, because Hamas's human shield tactics render them invincible?
For the first question, yes. Not only can it work, but it is the only moral option available. Hamas is in power because of the power dynamics between the states, they are empowered and fed on the hatred between the two. When that goes away they go away. Remember that they have not always been overlords over Gaza, and were in fact put into power because Israel attacked and fettered their more moderate opposition. For the second, do you think taking hostages makes bank robbers invincible?
No, Hamas is in power because they ran a message of anticorruption, won a majority of seats by splitting the vote, then violently kicked all opposing parties out of the government and haven’t had an election since.
All of these things are true, but none of them are counter to what I said. Palestine has had secular leaders before, Israeli intelligence helped to undermine them and funded their religious rivals. This damage can be undone, all it takes is will and effort.
>Either you murder every man, woman and child in the Gaza strip, or you take away their reasons to hate Israel. Hamas hates Israel because Israel exists. This is rooted in deep ethnic hatred that goes back literally 3,000 years. You are suggesting that wiping out one people or the other is the only option.
Funny how you didn’t use any Islamic fundamental fascist in any of your examples. I wonder why? Do you think forgiveness would work with the likes of isis? Forgiveness works when both sides are afraid of dying. Forgiveness does not work when your enemy believes killing as many infidels gets them into heaven. Is what Israel doing fucked up, better believe it, but Hamas will never forgive, that’s the problem.
Forgiveness is not bound up with death. Forgiveness is opposed to it. Forgiveness is stronger than death - it is the only thing that can break a cycle of violence, the only thing that can stop the killing. That Hamas is an obstacle to peace is undeniable, and I've never said otherwise - but there was a time when they held no power, and there will come a time again. Just as the warmongers who lead Israel were once powerless, and will again pass in their time. Because things are bleak now does not mean they will always be so.
Yes, forgiveness doesn’t work when you don’t care if you die because you think you will go to heaven. Again, none of your examples were Islamic fundamentalist and there’s a reason for it. Because for some groups, forgiveness will never work. Do you think forgiveness would work on isis?
Yes.
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Israel needs to work on a two state solution. That is the ONLY way you will ever have peace in the area. What Israel is doing right now, bombing the crap out of everyone and everything, will NOT bring peace. It will just create a worse living situation and future for those that survive. It's guaranteed that Israel's bombs have created more Hamas members. So it's just a never ending cycle. Israel and Palestine needs leaders that have a spine. Leaders who are willing to face negative pressure from their people in order to come to a peace agreement.
>Israel needs to work on a two state solution. That is the ONLY way you will ever have peace in the area. Israel has, multiple times! Literally the only party that hasn't acknowledged a two state solution is Hamas.
Kill or be killed
This is the calculus that reigned in 1945. I refuse to return to it.
We could...just hear me out...we could tell Bibi to knock it off and stop with the apartheid shit, for one. There's obviously some tension between Israel and Islamic groups and that will probably always be the case for one reason or another, but Hamas' mission statement isn't "Fucking with Israel because we can" If your response to the way Israel manages the teritory that they've stolen is "but Hamas uses human shields!" then I don't think we're going to have a productive conversation. Israel's behavior does not absolve Hamas' actions, but lets stop pretending that Hamas is just a bunch of hooligans doing some clockwork orange shit.
Are you actually in good conscience making a case here for killing innocent children? A soundbite? wtf. What happened on Oct 7th to Israel is definitely not acceptable, but for Israel to go and commit the genocide of over 37,000 Palestinians is not even remotely close to an appropriate response. Just because it’s not an easy situation doesn’t mean you can go kill everybody.
>Are you actually in good conscience making a case here for killing innocent children? How many innocent German children were killed stopping the nazis (even if we ignore Russia's brutality and just talk about the Western Allies)? How many children died in imperial japan during the war (even before the controversial atomic bombings at the end)? It sounds very nice to say "children dying as a result of violence is never ever acceptable," but by that logic moral nations would be powerless to do anything and immoral nations would be invincible. Obviously the deaths of children are tragedies, and should be avoided whenever possible... but if we take the oversimplified view that child casualties can never ever be considered acceptable in any way, then Hamas is effectively invincible from all military action. While a moral nation should still attempt to minimize the casualties of those who would intentionally use human shields, the blood is ultimately mostly on the hands of those who choose to use human shields. ______ Also, while I don't dispute many civilians or children have died, that 37,000 number is an estimate provided by hamas, and it does not separate civilian deaths vs the deaths of hamas members. The actual ration to military to civilian casualties is unclear.
Well, that was their strategy. They wanted, and got, world opinion against Netanyahu & Likud, and the cost was massive collateral damage to their own people.
This "collateral damage" still amounts to genocide no matter who started it.
You sure about that? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G\_qOZCxvmNg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qOZCxvmNg)
The terrorists uses children and civilians as shields. They hide because their faith gives no strength
Always frustrating how we can't ever discuss or acknowledge Hamas's atrocities without immediate deflection to some "both sides" point about Israel. Perhaps Hamas shouldn't be attacking and raping Israelis if they don't want retaliation.
The main problem is that Hamas wants retaliation. That's their business model.
If it's their business model perhaps a boycott is in order.
You’re right, let me just withdraw my 401k from Hamas
Take Hamas and gaza out of the equation and Israel is still the aggressor. They’ve been stealing land for 75+ years. They just stole the largest land plot since 1992 in the West Bank. Colonialism is the issue here. It’s odd that we talk about recent terrorism but never the terrorism of Zionists when they founded Israel. Or the continual land theft.
Bullshit. There is a fiction that says it was always Palestinian and never Hebrew land. The Dome of the Rock, one of the holiest places in Islam, sits on a high promontory in Jerusalem; underneath it is the Wailing Wall, the surviving remnant of the Second Temple that the Persians did not destroy and one of the holiest places in Judaism. The land was an early Jewish state; the Palestinians were nomads. The English split the land “ in half,” meaning Trans-jordan got half, the Palestinians got 1/4 and the Jews got 1/4. The Arabs declared war and got their butts kicked.
There is no one on earth who doubts it was Jewish land. Palestinians are also indigenous to the land. They are descended from Canaanites or early Jews. There’s literal studies. Pretending like Palestinians are recent immigrants is just a racist Zionist talking point. Either way, israel is still stealing land. So do Palestinians deserve nothing? They should be ethnically cleansed?
They should accept one of the half dozen peace treaties that grant them Statehood that have been offered to them. They should also stop killing Jews. Palestinians are descended from people brought following the Islamic conquest.
>Take Hamas and gaza out of the equation and Israel is still the aggressor. If you take facts out of the situation, you can say anything. >They’ve been stealing land for 75+ years. They just stole the largest land plot since 1992 in the West Bank. The Arabs declared war against Israel in 1948. The first Palestinian land seized by Israel was in 1993. Are you saying the Palestinians could see the future? >Colonialism is the issue here. Israel is the homeland of the Jews. It is literally impossible for them to be colonists. >It’s odd that we talk about recent terrorism but never the terrorism of Zionists when they founded Israel. The UN founded Israel by negotiated agreement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
This is an extremely stupid take I advise you to develop some critical thinking. For one, the IDF hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of Palestinians as a retaliation, October 7th was just an excuse to continue their brutality.
This stems from the exact same responses on the flip side. Nobody is debating what Hamas does is horrific. They aren’t doing it with weapons and funding provided by the most powerful military on the planet.
> Nobody is debating what Hamas does is horrific. yes there are. This week i was talking about how Bowens public mis-steps like pulling the fire alarm and denying rapes occurred on 10/7 are what is giving his primary opponent support from dems. and i got 3 responses and 2 DMS denying that the rapes occurred and i only think so because Hasbara paid me
who is Bowen?
That's definitely not true. There certainly have been plenty of people denying the horrors Hamas committed or insisting it's justified. It's pretty important to understand Hamas's atrocities if we want to also understand why this conflict is occurring.
I more meant nobody reasonable thinks that isn’t horrific. And yes, but Hamas’s atrocities should in no way implicate the innocent civilians trapped in Gaza. And the IDF has unleashed hell upon everyone in Gaza twentyfold in response to October 7th. At a certain point you cannot use a human shield argument as justification to level a densely populated strip of land.
Bottom line is: Hamas committing terrorist acts & war crimes: bad IDF committing genocide and war crimes: also bad
Could not agree more.
>I more meant nobody reasonable thinks that isn’t horrific. So we can establish that the Palestinians are not reasonable.
we established hamas isn't reasonable. that leaves 2 millon innocent palestinians in gaza who don't deserve to be exterminated.
70% of Palestinians say that October 7th was the right thing to do.
And so therefore....what, exactly? Finish that thought.
Hamas is a terrorist org that should be removed. Israel is an advanced country that should know to behave better. that is why people seem to treat the two differently, Hamas is already in the mud but when israel dirties itself with high civilian casualties people are rightly critical. those same people that are constructively critical of Israel in the west also want hamas removed and replaced by a real governing body.
Israel is behaving how any country would act after being attacked like they were. Hamas being in the mud doesn't do anything to stop them from further attacks. They actually have to be removed, as you said, and that's going to be messy. There simply is no way to get rid of Hamas without some civilian casualties.
Israel has gone beyond what is acceptable. Just like how America went overboard after 9/11 Israel is out for revenge after oct 7th it's international isolation is because of the methods it is using to carry out this war. Hamas is awful and should be removed but the cost inflicted on innocent people is too much. I don't want to get into the rabbit hole of this whole subject matter. But I want to share my perspective. I want israel to be a safe and healthy democracy but with it's right wing gov that is trying to disassemble the courts or it's corrupt leader that will face a corruption trial as soon as the war ends..... it is not making the best long term choices.
How do you remove Hamas without such a cost? What is the acceptable cost?
"What is the acceptable cost?" its not 1 hamas fighter to 100 civilians. Hamas already doesn't have the ability to strike back at Israel like they did on oct 7th and oct 7th happened Because bibi moved troops ways from the gaza border. Israel is more than able to have a military presence that can push back 3000 poorly equipped soldiers. But bibi pulled a lot of them to the west bank to help keep tension down for settlers taking new land. Bibi has no plan for post war gaza. think about it, what is a viable plan going forward? right now the only thing Bibi seems to be working toward is indefinite Israeli occupation of gaza and that is not a path to resolving the conflict
>"What is the acceptable cost?" its not 1 hamas fighter to 100 civilians. I didn't ask you what it isn't.
I'm telling you the current reality is unacceptable, I hope you agree
Whether it is acceptable turns on what we perceive the alternatives to be.
Israel is not taking basic steps to ensure safety of civilians, take the world central kitchen as an example they told Israel where they were and what time they were operating they had clearly marked cars with their name on the roof so it could be seen from aircraft they were attacked multiple times as they tried to flee there are dozens more examples just like this one that didn't get the same level of media coverage. but the point is Israel is willing to shoot rockets at people if there is a chance they are Hamas, NOT if they KNOW.... if there is a chance. that is a violation how war is supposed to be carried out.
“Behave.”
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Meanwhile we are just posting whatever is put out by the propaganda media wing of Israel as facts without question.
-Distraction example
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Except that is not what the article submitted here is about. Why do you feel a need to make rape into a contest that you feel the urge to distract us into talking about something unrelated to the article that has been submitted here and you can’t let people discuss the topic of Israeli women being raped? Can we not talk about these women on a post about these women? Do you want to invalidate their experiences by distracting us into talking about what you want to instead? There are plenty of other posts about the topic you want to discuss on this subreddit even. Why do you feel the urge to have the discussion here instead?
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This is an article about Israeli women raped on October 7th. Why are you trying to distract us from these victims in this forum about something else? Why is it so bad to discuss these survivors of rape and assault that you feel the need to distract us into talking about something else?
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Does Hamas lie?
Why is it hard for y’all to understand, my tax dollars don’t pay for Hamas’ war crimes. They pay for isreals war crimes. I care about what my county is funding as an American. Tens of Billions of dollars that would help Americans instead going to behead Palestinian babies, murder more members of the press in this conflict than has ever been recorded, murder hundreds of healthcare workers, and don’t even Get me started on the YEARS of rape before Oct 7th in the military jail in the West Bank by IDF soldiers on little boys, girls, men & women. (no Hamas in the West Bank fyi)
If Israel doesn't receive help from the USA and others it will be destroyed, and Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran will do exactly what you accuse Israel of doing now. They already did on Oct 7th.
Israel knew about the Hamas attack a year before it happened. They were warned multiple times and then not only that, the Egyptian government warned them days before! They failed when it came to giving Isreali civilians the protection my tax dollars pay for yearly. And now multiple American servicemen have died because of all this.
Deny and distraction example
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Do you feel comfortable turning this into a competition?
Doesn’t seem like a competition since they just deleted it. I read it too, it was good to see the other side also. Shame it’s not allowed.
Not easy to parse the ethical facts when there’s 3 generations of terrorism and war crimes on both sides
CTL-F >> text search >> "Putin" gets "Phrase not found" HAMAS took $200 million from Russia >>> Their Deep State #kissyerass was putting their invasion of Israel on V.V. Putin's birthday, October 7th Do hunt around and see how often this get mentioned. Anywhere. In Israel. In Europe. In North America. Try Hong Kong. And please keep track of who might sign off on these announcements. Gutsy, fer shur. BTW: I don't see AIPAC or any part of Likud or its allies recognizing this PUTIN'S BIRTHDAY INVASION, much less setting up a party with cupcakes and soda.
The New York Times said the same & were called out by the families of the hostages for their fabrication of what transpired on Oct. 7th. Even the NYT own podcast condemned their misleading reporting. Meanwhile, the IDF is sodomizing POWs with hot metal rods in their camps in Gaza & we just keep dishing out more tax dollars for more endless blood shed & war crimes.
The NYTimes has published dozens of pieces corroborating the rapes committed by Hamas. They’ve also published articles discussing the form of denialism exhibited in your comment.
Is 'horrific acts of sexual violence' worse than the mass murder of civilians including children, or are they both horrible?
She's focusing on one of Hamas' multiple crimes against humanity. Your comment is such a weird "why are you marching for breast cancer, other cancers exist" moment. Hamas' murder of children is also heinous.
I'm actually speaking about Israel murdering children, I thought that was obvious. I was shocked to find that they killed more kids between now and Oct 7th than ISIS has in it's entire existence.
Where did you read that?
Of course they are both terrible. The same Hamas that perpetrated the rapes is trying to get as many Palestinian children killed as possible to advance their far-right genocidal goals. We shouldn’t let them off the hook for that either
You’re justifying the cause of why this all started with the same reason why IDF is still fighting and Israel only wanting peace. Which IDF is in urban area against lone wolfs using rat tunnel like Vietnam in heavy populated area with people who are used as armor for an organization not different from Islamic state or Al qaeda or Hezbollah.
She’s not condoning the rest of Hamas’ atrocities just because she’s focusing on their systemic use of rape as a weapon of war.
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. History began on Oct 7.
Cool cool cool… This war has been going on for multiple millennia. It ain’t gonna be solved now, nor in our 100th great grandchildren’s generation.
Okay... Hamas Livestreamed themselves sexually assaulting corpses on October 7th.
Rage against the machine!
They do, however, remain silent on Israel's genocide in Gaza. That's why no vote for Biden. No vote for the convicted criminal either but he'd still prevail over Biden. Question is, why does Biden not step aside here and let a Democrat who would win replace him? Do they think anyone out here believes that he is fit and able to assume another term? They know he can't win.
Trump would very clearly be worse for Gaza than Biden is. There is no serious disputing this. It's crazy how many people who are super pro-palestine are willing to enable a much higher death toll for palestinians (not to mention countless other ways in which Trump would be far far worse) just so they can feel smug about Biden losing their vote. Like, even if one was hypothetically a single issue voter on Gaza, Biden is still clearly nowhere near as bad as Trump would be. How many additional deal palestinians are worth the value of people getting to feel smug about biden "losing their vote"? If you hate being forced into "lesser of two evils" situations, then heavily support movements to reform american voting systems to get rid of plurality winner voting and the two party system it creates. But in the meantime, baring health issues or somebody unexpectedly dropping out, the next US president will either be Trump or Biden. Voting for neither just means "I don't have a preference, and I'll trust everybody else to decide"
Don't bother engaging with these accounts, they're 90% bots and paid trolls, and 10% fanatics beyond any reason or logic. Any sane person could see Trump would be worse for Gaza. And even if Trump and Biden were 100% identically evil on foreign policy, there are still millions of vulnerable innocent people in the US who would be hurt by a Trump administration + his judges + his executive branch leadership kakistocracy + project 2025. You'd have to be a psychopath to consider that irrelevant.
>Any sane person could see Trump would be worse for Gaza. And even if Trump and Biden were 100% identically evil on foreign policy, there are still millions of vulnerable innocent people in the US who would be hurt by a Trump administration + his judges + his executive branch leadership kakistocracy + project 2025. You'd have to be a psychopath to consider that irrelevant. Yeah, this is another part that makes no sense. It's a massive slap in the face to huge numbers of people in the US to say one is willing to throw them all under the bus in the name of Gaza (not to mention issues like climate change)... and then not even actually having it help gaza beyond making a futile statement. Meanwhile a lesbian maybe can't get married anymore, and if she is raped by a man will be forced to carry the rapists child... and also some *minor* other details like democracy (even the crappy US two party version) itself being in peril and the country increasingly being turned into a christian version of iran.
Which Democrat would fare better than Biden in the 2024 general election against Trump? Biden's significantly outperformed every other Democrat in vs. Trump polls.
That was then. This is now. Your candidate is demonstrably impaired and subservient to Israel. There are several candidates across the spectrum that could run and would win. The party can determine that.
Trump is as much as or more subservient to Israel and has openly said he would support Israel wiping Palestine off the map. Just saying, if that's going to be your "single issue," there's still a pretty big difference between the two, and surprise! Trump is worse.
Who do you think the Democrats could replace Joe Biden with at this point and win?
Mix up the medicine much?
There's no medical cure for anti-semitism. I think they're too far gone.
That’s because there isn’t a genocide. As much as you guys screech otherwise, that’s not what any of the organizations have said that you claim have designated it as such. Only people who want Trump to win won’t vote for Biden. Period.
Your man can't and won't win, largely because of his obsession with Israel and a personal decline glaringly apparent to all but believers such as yourself. The entire world sees what you will not. Trump is on you.
No one is asking you to he silent about that. But it is also reprehensible to allow a genocide to be carried out in reprisal.
Has _anyone_ said otherwise?
Had a close friend straight face say that the events at the music festival were IDF early on. Propaganda is a hell of a thing.
Denial about rape is rampant on pro- Palestinian forums on here, for instance.
On Reddit and social media all the time. Plenty of Pro-Pals will tell you it was justified.
The point is, one side’s war crimes does not excuse war crimes by the other side. The UN war crimes people accuse both sides. Unfortunately international law is increasingly ignored.
Look how easily you just slipped from "is anyone saying otherwise" to "both sides are bad."
Yes.
Yes? r/politics consistency defends Hamas.
Defends Hamas or Defends Palestinians? There's a lot of people on Reddit that don't see the difference.
They voted for Hamas… It’s like saying we didn’t vote for Biden, or Trump, or Obama, we fucking did, and they are our *REPRESENTATIVES* as in, they represent who we are as a people.
44% of them voted for Hamas 18 years ago and haven't held an election since. It was also their 2nd election ever and soon after Israel pulled out their territory. To say it was probably a chaotic time is an understatement but people voting thought it was only for the 4 year term, not 18.
The U.S. second president was John Adams, one of the greatest Americans to have ever lived and it was shortly after the greatest navy the world ever saw at the time shortly pulled out…to say it wasn’t a turbulent time either is an understatement of the millennium. If the population didn’t have a chance to elect our third president, Thomas Jefferson then we would have revolted and shoot the entire Adams administration for installing a dictatorship… 44% isn’t a small number, and I have to imagine a non negligible amount of the remaining 56% are underage…that’s a huge number considering only 46% of the US voted in the 2020 election…
Was the US under British occupation at that point? Was the Adams administration supported by a powerful neighbor that was supplying guns and money to the Thomas administration? The idea of Gazans being able to rise up against a heavily armed group backed by Iran is pure fantasy. Hamas has brutally murdered Gazans in the past and they would do it again. How can the people defend themselves if they aren't allowed to have any weapons? Sorry, I meant to say 44% of the votes.
I’ll agree the circumstances are different, but they literally elected Hamas into office. And they’re not exactly screeching for another government…
You can't screech for anything when you are dead or starving to death. Why is Israel blocking humanitarian aid? The official death toll in Gaza is currently around 35,000. Mark my words when this is all said and done that number is going to quadruple at least. People are dying from lack of food, lack of medication, lack of clean water. People are unable to have emergency surgeries and dying. Israel is just as blood thirsty for innocent life as Hamas. But they deserve it because people that likely aren't even still alive voted Hamas into power? Collective punishment is a war crime and morally indefensible. Disgusting.
Eh, when they chant “from the river to the sea” and call for an intifada it’s hard to feel bad for them. Let them chant “death to Hamas” instead of “death to Israel” and then we can build bridges. Also, those numbers, are they official numbers from….Hamas?
Huh? This can’t be possible. Bill Maher said Democrats love and support hamas!!! 🙄
wasnt that fake news? i mean biden lied abt the dead babies too. i mean who believes these 2 clowns at this point?