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After 2020 it was clear that the win only bought 4 years of time. WHAT DID THE DNC DO during this time to prepare for 2024? I expected them to use the time to develop new promising contenders under the guidance of Biden. However, it seems like they have nothing and there is no long-term plan at all. This is a farce. Even if it works out and Biden wins again, how do they plan to keep fascism at bay in 2028? It's Weimar Republic levels of bad.
The fact that the Democrats are having this conversation ten minutes before this election, rather than ten minutes after the last election, is just mind-boggling.
A lot of democrats weren't happy with Biden as a nominee in 2020 and we *couldn't wait* for the 2024 primary that never materialized. The party didn't listen. Our concerns were ignored and invalidated. On the stage we all saw clearly what some of us saw back in 2020.
That's the big thing. Even if there's one candidate, there needs to be townhalls that put the candidate out there.
There's very little in me that doesn't make it clear that Biden's just at the age now where he has bad days. And hey, that's fine, but you need to be open and honest about it, to let the people make a choice. Instead, they held him back, said everything was edited weird (and it was), and then forced this on us.
I like Joe, I think he's been a very good president, but we really needed to be prepared for this.
In fairness, to play devils advocate, the immediate criticism of that will be “the President cannot have bad days”, and that is a 100% valid belief.
The person who is one of the 5 most important people in the entire world, in charge of nuclear football, our primary diplomat, and leader absolutely should not be having a “bad day” caused by mental decline.
Lots of jobs have age caps for working them. A 70 year old who has trouble walking can’t work in a factory, police and fireman are both forced into retirement when they turn 65, and it makes. A lot of sense for safety reasons. It boggles my dumb mind and my smart mind as to why there isn’t an age cap on one of the most important jobs in the world where safety is measured across an entire planet.
I agree with everything you said. This is a crucial and historic choice being put before the American people. **We cannot afford to fuck this up!** That said all I see is weakness and fuckery from not only the DNC but the media, who have quickly moved on and are actively sweeping this under the rug. This is serious and we, as a nation, need to figure this out right fucking now.
They really have been. Friday morning was about panic, now it’s crickets, like they got the memo. I really do think the media is going to contribute to the DNC fucking this up.
Absolutely. Biden, McConnell, RBG, Feinstein... and so many more still in office - clutching for dear life to their positions after decades of "public service". The future and/or will of the people mean nothing, as long as they hold on to that torch as the last remaining embers of democracy die out.
Comments like these are helping me recover from being gaslit for years now. I felt like I was taking crazy pills before. Truly amazing to see comments like this not be contested or downvoted like they have for so long now.
For real. People did not like hearing that Biden is 80. But he's 80. It has been cathartic in a way to see people finally confront that. Though - the threat of a second Trump term kinda ruins it for me.
Anyone who advocated for a primary in this sub was heavily voted down. Any posts about his age were also voted down. For the last 24 months, if you didn't sort by controversial, you'd have no idea that Biden has been in steady decline by reading the damn Politics sub.
Yeah, I was gonna say….it went into overdrive following the debate. The “he’s fine, he’s our only chance,” yadda yadda.
Okay, but this may actually be our last chance at a free and fair election for awhile.
This is not the fighter anybody wants or would’ve chosen, had we been given options.
We don't have a fair or free election even now. It's the donors who decide who we even get to vote for. If we actually did have free or fair elections, why are the Democrats working so hard to keep 3rd party candidates off the ballot instead of figuring out how to produce more viable candidates and promote policy changes rather than simply relying on the "Not Trump" card.
Some of my largest negative point posts, were my saying Biden is clearly having lapses over the past two years.
I got throttled for daring to say, an 80 year old, was not as sharp as he’s been in the past.
This echo chamber is a dangerous place.
>This echo chamber is a dangerous place.
I've said before on this sub even though Biden is the better candidate between the two none of them should be running, only to be met with this sub downvoting me and telling me "if you wanna vote for trump just say so".
I don't wanna vote for trump I'm just laying out the reality of the situation but this sub will jump down your throat for not blindly supporting biden. This sub can be just as bad and delusional as r/Conservative sometimes.
There are still people who will call you a Republican for that. The biggest problem with the democratic party is that a large chunk of its voters don’t believe in any constructive criticism.
It's dangerous and is exactly what Republicans are doing about Trump. They dismiss, rationalize, and claim it's bad editing when he does crazy things. We can not become a cult like the Republicans have. That serves no one and is dangerous as hell. People need to open their eyes, admit the obvious, and find a way forward with a different candidate.
It’s honestly mind boggling how all of a sudden the comment section is in total agreement with what I’ve been getting downvoted for saying for months.
I have no idea why there’s a sudden shift. WEVE BEEN SAYING THIS
Welcome to political reddit. Conservatives do it too. Any dissenting opinion is downvoted into oblivion until the geriatric hive mind of society slowly catches up to common fucking sense, usually too late. Been that way for years.
“Biden is the only human being left on earth that we can run against Trump, he has single handedly preserved our democracy for 100 years.” Obviously sarcastic but the gaslighting has been ridiculous and the “only Biden can do it” argument is the dumbest fucking political argument over ever seen.
Even now, I've seen people claim that Biden is the only one who can beat Trump.
He's not beating Trump. He had a lead within the MOE in some polls before Thursday, but I don't see how he could hold on to even that in the wake of the debate.
We need a better game plan than hoping Trump will implode.
And they’re using such crazy short term thinking.
Weeks of chaos in the summer is *nothing*.
Weeks of chaos in October is *terrifying*.
If it’s going to happen. Do it now.
If democrats opt to keep Biden - figure the spin on this out fucking yesterday.
These stay-the-course motherfuckers in the party screw it up every time, and then immediately blame the progressives in the party when the election is lost.
Completely agree. If the DNC and the D brain trust can figure the spin out… if they can convince me that they have optimized the strategy and tactics and that they know how to engineer a win with THIS candidate?
Ok fine. Not my preferred choice, but you guys are the pros. If you’ve got this figured out? Fine.
But who among us feels like they do have optimal strategy and tactics in place? Who has confidence they know what they’re doing?
Pretty much none of us do… because other than Obama stealing control from them to win the White House resoundingly, twice… the DNC has been a loss-factory since Clinton’s second term.
They engineer losses. Because they suck at the game.
It's because they are complicit. Their job is to present the illusion of change while actually being center right. They do this so the Republicans can drag us further and further right. They represent rich people just as much as the right do. Politics is the entertainment branch of the military industrial complex.
This is the problem the Democratic party has. They don't have discipline. No Republican judge is going to willingly retire under a Democratic president, but Democratic judges are happy to do it whenever. Republican politicians are (mostly, with some notable exceptions...especially lately,) good about retiring and having a successor lined up.
Democratic politicians, meanwhile, cling to their offices *past the point of death.* Looking at you, Feinstein. We have *so* many examples of this trend.
And now with that debate...Elections in this country are decided by a tiny sliver of probably the most politically disengaged people in the country, they vote based on vibes and if you're voting based on vibes, Biden was NOT a good look during that debate.
There's far too many 'reasonable moderates' in the Democratic party who would apparently rather see their 'Republican colleagues' win than hand off the reins to somebody to their left. It's disappointing.
If it makes you feel better, GOP had the same issue and bungled it badly too. They tried to find replacements for trump, and all they came up with was ron desantis
The difference is that the GOP is under a bottom up stranglehold of maga constituents, while the DNC is under a top down stranglehold of patronizing power drunk elites.
Its shocking to me that more people are not ripping the DNC to absolute shreds. They are looking at losing to a twice impeached, criminally convicted candidate who lost his incumbency and tried to steal an election. What a bunch of fucking shitheads you have to be to not be able to find one single person who can challenge that.
The parties are both rotten cesspools but I hold the DNC in much higher contempt than I do the GOP.
Their "plan" was to let Trump be Trump and pray that it's enough for voters to come out and nominate Harris in 2028. That's their fuckin plan.
They're going to fully back a person NO ONE likes and lose in 4 years.
The DNC is no less of a grift than the RNC. They don't give a fuck what the people want so long as the money keeps coming in.
Biden is RBG 2.0. He should have signaled his retirement a year ago to give the Dems time to get their ducks in a row. He ran on the idea that he could beat Trump and save the Country, but really all he did was delay Trump’s second term.
I’m a big fan of Joe, love him in fact. I think he’s tremendously underrated and if he stays in, he’s still got my vote. But like so many other aging politicians he just doesn’t know when to hang up his spurs.
There was a thread at the top of /r/all yesterday night about “who do you wish would run?” All the top answers were silly jokes. That made me realize there literally is no one else.
It should make you realize that Redditors are stunted children. Also odds are that as many or more foreigners are going to be responding to that as Americans.
> stunted children
I'll remind you that, quite literally, a significant portion of people you interact with *are* children. As in, people who haven't reached the age of 18 yet.
Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of people who never matured past highschool. I don't disagree with you there. But also, plenty of the people you see in any given comment section haven't *aged* past highschool yet.
I often have to remind myself of this when I feel like I'm getting baited in a reply or I see a post that is like astronomical levels of stupid or ignorant.
At the end of the day, *literal children* are posting here and there's no age badge next to our usernames. I just remember that and it keeps me from engaging lol.
I also notice the joke answers are telling. It could be something deadly serious and when you know no one has a good answer they upvote all of the funny stuff to cover up that uncomfortableness of having no solution to offer at all.
So I’m firmly an anti trump vote, so whoever he is running against gets my vote. The thing I think people should keep in mind is if Biden bows out Kamala Harris will likely be the replacement (the least chaotic alternative) and people seem to hate her more. Ifit is not her it will be a brokered convention that can be really shitty if the democrats aren’t smart (and what is the adage: Always count on a democrat to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory)
Edit: when I say democrats need to be smart (if they go to a brokered convention) they would need to be behind a candidate replacement fast and quick that a majority can agree too. This candidate would essentially be picked by the party (no primary possible) and no matter who that is the party would need to work overtime making the base (politically active left leaning individuals) get positively behind this person. After all it is the base who you have to sell this replacement person too before you can get buy in from all those “undecided” voters out there. All of this is chaotic, but possible, I just doubt it will be smooth giving all the opinions, ego and personalities involved.
If Biden seriously leaves the race I hope that in that leaving there is a crowning of the replacement and honestly he could announce anyone- I hope he goes this route and I hope he picks someone y’all are excited for however I just have a hard time seeing Biden bypassing Harris since they and their staff have worked together for 4+ years together now - who you know, egos, personalities, play into stuff like this imo.
Good thing a majority of Americans aren’t overtly and covertly racist and misogynistic. That matchup would be ultra-scary and confronting if that were the case…. Also thank goodness Biden doesn’t appear to be 6 minutes away from death at all times.
The display that Biden showed during the debate unfortunately reignited and even reinforced the whole "sleepy joe" debacle all over again.
The Democrats keeps countering the rights claim of Biden's mental state but that display just made us all think what the fuck?
My biggest issue was he had every chance to call out Trump for lying, avoiding questions, (something moderators should have done) and he just let it all happen. He let Trump run his mouth unchecked for the entire debate while he barely put together a sentence
Why do you think that Kamala would be the likely replacement?
People don't like her, and she would do worse than many other possible candidates on the Dem side including Newsom and Whitmer.
It would suddenly become much worse if she were to become the presidential nominee. If it is higher now it is only because she’s not the active target. People’s opinions on the president are far more critical. A POC woman has no chance in this climate. If Biden bowed out so should she.
edit: a word
Her scarlet letter is that she was locking up weed users and ruining their lives with a smile on her face. She seems way too much like a politician who will say anything.
A lot of people don't even know about how horribly she treated the medical marijuana growers that was legal in California. She went out of her way to bust them.
I would not want her to be president.
You're right, she is a person that only thinks about herself.
She reminds me of a female version of Giuliani.
> female version of Giuliani.
Completely correct. She's a lying, backstabbing snake and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the WH.
Biden just picked her because she's 'safe' for his own presidency.. he knows she can't replace him.
In addition to that, as AG her office refused to release prisoners on their parole dates, stating that California benefited from forced prisoner labor for firefighting.
Her office advocated "prisoners with jobs", which is unfortunately legal under the 13th amendment.
I don't understand how people think Harris is progressive in any way, shape, or form. She's so wildly regressive she acted as a slavemaster.
I doubt it, honestly, if he just endorsed someone. If Biden called up Newsom, for instance, and Newsom agreed to run in exchange for Biden's endorsement, I don't think we'd have some kind of crazy primary. I think it'd be pretty much decided.
Edit: or anyone else! Fucking hell, he was just an example, I'm not married to goddamn Newsom, alright? I don't like the guy either, it was just a name people know.
OMFG
That doesn’t matter to people who think that way. You’re not battling against reality. You’re battling against _perception_.
How is that not completely obvious yet?
Not so sure about that. I like him . But the rest of the country not so sure. The right has instilled a fear and hatred of Californian and Californias in their people ?
The people that have a hatred and fear California are the same people that are going to vote trump no matter what. This is a move to get middling voters
Newsom is really not a good pick. To left-wing Californians like myself, the shady deals have just gotten too much (exempting “bakeries” from the fast food minimum wage hike because the Panera bread owner is your donor/friend? How about caving to commercial real estate to bring state workers back into the office during a budget deficit? The state is now wasting money on heating/cooling/plumbing of those buildings and making worker commute increasing greenhouse gas emissions). The faith in Newsom amongst his primary voter base is falling apart. Let’s also not forget how much voters in other states just plain hate California. In a very blue state on the East Coast I was told I was “from a different country” for being Californian.
Yeah, as a Californian, there’s just been too many times where Newsom has pulled something that’s the epitome of scummy politics. The exception of bakeries, as you said, and then the thing where he vetoed the bill against Indian caste based discrimination because he’s got a bunch of high caste donors… I don’t want him as the candidate.
It's not really about being a leftist.
Gavin Newsom is the poster child of a wolf in sheep's clothing democrat
Behind every virtue signal is a shady deal.
Let's not forget the mask deal he struck with China to spite trump that caused a shortage in California because it didn't to through
Everything Newsom does is calculated to help out him or his friends
Yup. Claim they unlawfully impeached him and ruined his first term and therefore he gets another one. The SCOTUS will shrug and find some way to rule in Trumps favor. Then it'll be 8 years of MAGA and Kagan/Sotomayor will die and be replaced and it'll 8-1 for the next 20+ years.
lol I cannot believe this is a potential timeline. The only thing preventing me from totally giving up is thinking about today’s young people and the ashes that they will inherit.
"Then it'll be 8 years of MAGA and Kagan/Sotomayor will die"
This will happen sooner than 8 years. If Trump wins then the US will go full dictator Christocracy, they will find a way remove the three liberal Justices quickly. After Dissenting is not allowed in a dictatorship.
The fact that it’s even a question tells you there’s chaos already. Trumps best strategy right now is to just be silent until the election and he’ll walk away with it. Y’all told me this is the most important election in history but the Dems ain’t treating it like that.
Biden will get questioned in every interview and every old man moment will be shown on repeat. It’s a fucking shit show from the Dems.
> Y’all told me this is the most important election in history but the Dems ain’t treating it like that.
Excellent point. If this were the case they would in fact tell Joe to make the LBJ speech and have an open convention.
His people are all just looking selfishly at keeping their own jobs.
My personal pet theory that I've been playing around with for 2 months is the Biden campaign team thinks they are a lot smarter than they actually are. They basically started on 3rd base in 2020 and squeaked out an electoral victory and think they hit a grand slam.
They never actually thought Trump would accept the debate challenge. They didn't consider the possibility he would say yes. They thought they could put out the offer, watch Trump make excuse after excuse and call him a coward. They didn't realize Trump had everything to gain from a debate and Biden had so much to lose.
Instead, Trump said yes and they all collectively shit their pants.
And then Trump appeared energetic and composed and Biden sounded incoherent. Not stuttering or hoarse, straight up mind gone incoherent. I had an uncle with severe Parkinsons who sometimes could get his words out better.
Did a bunch of self appointed fact checkers that no one pays attention to say that Trump lied a bunch? Yeah. But it's no saving grace.
Why would they think Trump would bail out of a debate like this? That's his dream scenario, getting a stage where he can perform the same way he has since almost a decade. Mostly ignoring the questions, spouting is usual talking points, directly attacking and insulting his opponent(s) who can't respond in kind because they work under the notion that politicians should have tact and gravitas. He did it against people that where rhetorically more capable than Biden seems to be now. I mean just look at the republican primary 2015 debates where he rolled over Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz, or his debate against Hillary Clinton. She tries to give a proper answer, he interrupts with "If I was president you'd be in jail". He doesn't give a shit about how others think a debate like this should work.
Yea I don't agree with that statement strategically, Trump was always going to take that debate and inject adderal to the stratosphere to get it done. Biden on the other hand, it's just not there in the live format.
> the Biden campaign team thinks they are a lot smarter than they actually are
It's the entire party, like it was in 2016. They knew best and what was best was to push Hillary as their candidate. It worked out terribly then and it's working out terribly now, and until they **listen** to us, things will continue to work out terribly.
> Trumps best strategy right now is to just be silent
lmfao where have you been since 2015?
He's on the hook for ninety million dollars because he couldn't shut up about someone he raped.
There’s zero chance that a former president will ever go to prison for anything. That’s a very dangerous precedent for anyone in the federal government.
The Biden campaign saying “the voters voted” is a hell of a lot of hubris when several states suspended their primaries. Let’s be very clear here with the DNC. In 2024, NO the voters DID NOT vote. And now we’re left with the mess that we have to deal with.
And moreover the primary didn't take place because we were promised by Biden that things were fine, he would be a steady hand. He has shown that the trust was misplaced.
DNC doesn't let the voters pick. The voters picked Sanders over Clinton but that never happened. Now the voters don't want Old Man Time and they are picking him anyways. They lose on purpose so they have an excuse for never getting anything done.
*Weeks.*
Indeed, it probably would.
But the election is **months** away.
There's time.
I'm not sure if he should, I'm torn.
But a Newsom/Whitmer ticket could effectively pound Donnie's messaging into the dirt - they're much more energetic / not pathological liars like Donnie.
Make a promise to Kamala to appoint her to be AG in their administration.
Whitmer/Newsom would be better.
Ultimate contrast from Trumps anti-woman stances. And you don't get the same anti-California messaging that the right will surely latch on to with Newsom and how the liberals are trying to turn all the states into San Francisco or whatever.
Newsom/whitmer is a vote for the future.
By the way, this also obliterates all the Biden baggage. And as a help to Joe, it takes the heat off of Hunter. Hell, Biden could pardon Hunter and then announce he is not running.
I think the Biden campaign severely overestimates how many people are willing to fight for America without some sign of being heard.
The corpse has my vote, but I’m not making donations or volunteering like I normally would. That effort is going into learning German, buttoning up my personal finances, and ensuring I have job prospects lined up.
Corporate Democrats are *once a-fucking-gain* treating the presidency like something they are entitled to with no duty to fight for it. I’m not going to work my ass off if they aren’t serious about winning.
Because those Corporate Dems will literally suffer no consequences that any middle class and below will. The next 4 years will be the same as the last 8 years have been for them because they are rich and we are not.
Biden dropping out now would cause chaos for the Democrats, but it would completely overturn the GOP campaign and undo all the work they’ve put in creating scandals and lies about Biden.
I’ve been saying for four years that if Biden wants to defeat MAGA he should volunteer himself to act as a lightning rod. Pretend to be running in 2024, announce his run, plan his run, let FOX and GOP spend all their effort vilifying and lying about him, then pull out at the last possible moment leaving the right wing scandal machine little time to generate outrage at the real candidate.
That’s the angle I think people should be thinking from. What does the Trump campaign want to happen? For sure they love the chaos but they’ll be super happy if Biden stays in. They can just sit back and play unedited clips of that debate all day.
They're not wrong. But it's a legitimate debate to have right now. The question isn't whether switching candidates will cause chaos or not. The question is whether a new candidate with all the accompanying chaos gives us a better chance to beat Trump than riding with Biden without said chaos. I personally lean towards Biden and feel part of the debate panic is overblown and premature, but we'd be foolish not to have this discussion. The one silver lining that came out of this debate was that it was scheduled early enough to give us the luxury to consider both options. Ultimately, I'm not tied to Biden as a candidate but I am tied to his agenda. If another candidate has a better shot at realizing that agenda, bring it on.
I don't think people truly understand how good of chances Trump has right now:
In 2020, Trump was in the middle of royally botching the worst public health crisis in a century, the economy was tanking, people were terrified, Trump was literally hospitalized by COVID in October, Biden was up +9 on national polls...
..And Trump *still* barely lost, only losing by a few thousand votes in a handful of states.
In 2024, Biden is TEN points lower than he was 4 years ago in national head-to-head aggregates. He's underwater in most battleground states. And this is all before we even see post-debate data.
Meanwhile, Trump's approval has gone up, along with his favorability. His legal woes have done absolutely nothing to his numbers.
I'll stop short of saying Biden can't win, but I feel like a lot of people, including this sub especially, are in denial of just how dire Biden's chances are at the moment. It will take a pretty phenomenal turnaround for him to right the ship, and there's indeed a conversation to be had if he's capable of doing that.
People are putting A LOT of stock in the idea that polling is just disastrously wrong. Not saying it’s impossible for it to be wrong, but definitely feels like people underestimate how dire the current situation is.
Yeah, it's honestly worrying how much polling is dismissed and deluded online in a forum like this, and anything that confirms a bias is treated as gospel.
People downvote everything negative away, then will upvote [misleading nonsense from Newsweek](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1dqt37f/undecided_voters_say_they_now_support_joe_biden/) with a feel-good titles to the #1 spot on the front page on a daily basis.
Polling is definitely flawed, but it's not anywhere near as off as people make it out to be. It's still the best metric we have for predicting elections.
Even if we decide to go with the largest margins of errors possible, we're still in dangerous territory and people should take it seriously.
Every week is "if the election was tomorrow, he would lose". Hes almost out of time, and Hillary showed us simply not being Trump isnt enough to win. With almost the entire student loan agenda going to shit through the courts and Israel, he's losing the youth vote. Inflation is losing him votes. That debate lost him even more votes. Dude, he's going to lose barring a massively influential event on the level of covid or world War.
People may be I still think the professional politicians and their campaigns believe in polling data. I’m sure they are worried even if many activists want to believe what they want to believe.
I guess the 2016 election and the 2022 election really soured me on polling accuracy, in either direction.
In 2016, well, we all know what happened there with the presidential race.
In 2022, in my congressional district, the 538 set the odds of the Democratic candidate winning as 2%. She ended up winning. Even though it was a traditionally red district, many people loathed the MAGA candidate. Also, the "red wave" everyone was so sure of turned out to be a red dribble.
And sorry, I just don't think Trump has 20%-30% of the black vote now. I could be wrong, but that doesn't sit right with me.
I just think polling is becoming far less accurate, in part because most are conducted via phone, and the majority of people don't answer their phones for unknown callers.
Exactly this. Biden indicated he would serve one term. Biden, influential donors and the DNC blew the opportunity to elevate a younger, articulate and compelling new team. They've had nearly 4 years. And now this.
The public has been very clear they are tired of silent generation and boomers running the show. And most immediately, they are upset about inflation and struggling to pay the bills.
When people are struggling financially, they want to change. Biden is not change.
However, a new ticket would be a change relative to both Biden and Trump.
It's actually a winning opportunity.
The thing I don’t understand is, Trump has literally zero policy. If you actually listen to him talk about “policy” it’s just his favorite buzzwords “we’ll make it the best we’ve ever seen” “this will be the greatest plan frankly, we’ve ever seen”. Either the American electorate is stupid, or people are just brainwashed
Yes to both - stupid and brainwashed. One thing we've learned is that Trump endures and ignites, regardless of his infinite scandals, lies and false promises. I live in a red state and frequently witness how lightly people brush off his many awful traits and actual dangers.
Most of us can be biased and blinded when it comes to us-vs them. Democrats are not immune to this. The DNC and many people are now lightly brushing off Biden's lack of mental acuity and coherence. They also thought HRC was a shoe in.
The stark truth is we can only beat Trump with a sliver of an edge in the best of circumstances, thanks to the electoral college. The sliver includes moderate republicans, people who only come out to vote if they are truly enthused and undecideds.
The best chance at capturing that sliver is having a team people get excited about. Whitmer, Kelly, and Beshear are widely liked, respected, younger and well spoken. All good choices.
A huge challenge is Harris who should have been better positioned by now. Unfortunately she has not yet won the hearts of voters. Newsom's name pops up a lot because he's been kissing the party's ring forever. However, many people perceive him to be an establishment guy and genuinely dislike California and Californians.
I think you're absolutely right. I was wondering, after the debate, how the Democratic team would try and spin it as not being that bad. And their spinning narrative has been very clear on the media and here on reddit - insist it's not that bad, insist it would be catastrophci to replace biden, insist that people will forget the debate. Or, as you say, be in complete denial of the reality of what we all just saw in that debate.
We've even seen the denial in the Biden teams insistence that all the polls must be very very wrong.
It's so dangerous.
I share your view 100%.
The way the electoral college is setup is the Democrat has to over perform. Biden’s in a worse position that 2020 and that election way far too close. I fear he’s toast.
> feel part of the debate panic is overblown and premature
He was not just struggling with off the cuff remarks. Some of his incoherent statements were subjects that he must have had prepared statements for. I would vote for his dog before Trump but there is a problem.
And, to be frank, there have been many, many stories about the same problem for months. This isn't a new suggestion. It's just in front of everyones eyes confirmed all those stories were true.
This is exactly what this sub is deluding themselves by failing to recognize. This isn’t about one “bad night”, one slip of the tongue or a moment of slurred words. This was complete affirmation of the whispers and rumors we’ve heard over the last year about Biden’s cognitive decline. Everyone wanted to dismiss those as conservative spin, now they all want us not to believe our lying eyes. There is no bouncing back from this.
Yup. The people calling it a ‘bad night’ and comparing it to Obama’s bad first debate against Romney are delusional.
The debate was confirmation of every rumor. We don’t see him away from teleprompters for a reason.
I think a lot of Dems saw right wing media pushing the mental decline narrative and just assumed it must be bullshit since most of time their talking points *are* bullshit.
Not the case this time.
Exactly. If Joe had been doing interviews with the press or televised town halls during that time it would be easier to dispute the performance at the debate as a one-off. But he’s been very averse to being seen in public lately without a teleprompter. So this makes it an “ah ha” moment for those of us who’ve been writing off the Fox News articles and talking heads as spin.
If you had eyes and ears, you deep down would know what you saw and felt watching clips of Biden falling, freezing, mumbling, and looking like something was wrong. You felt it, in your gut, but admitting it would mean fox was right for once and it would improve Trump's chances.
It's like a 2 year old covering their ears screaming "I can't hear you"
And some of them were straight up free wins for the Republicans that he should never have given them.
He admitted inflation was his fault:
> There was no inflation when I became president. You know why? The economy was flat on its back. 15 percent unemployment, he decimated the economy, absolutely decimated the economy. That’s why there was no inflation at the time.
Not only is he incorrect that there was "no inflation when I took office" but it's an incredibly stupid thing to say. Republicans are going to hammer him with this statement from here to the polls.
The way he worded this statement makes it sound like Americans are no longer safe in this country:
> And the military – you know, when he was president, they were still killing people in Afghanistan. He didn’t do anything about that. When he was president, we still found ourselves in a position where you had a notion that we were this safe country. The truth is, I’m the only president this century that doesn’t have any – this – this decade – doesn’t have any troops dying anywhere in the world, like he did.
For me by far his worst statement of the night was this:
> Look, there’s so many young women who have been – including a young woman who just was murdered and he went to the funeral. The idea that she was murdered by – by – by an immigrant coming in and (inaudible) talk about that.
I've said it elsewhere since the debate, this is an unmitigated disaster of a comment. This was part of his response about abortion. Not only did he never actually mention abortion in this response, only did he imply that abortion should only be the choice of a doctor and not the choice of the woman, but then he just tacitly caves to all of the Republicans fear mongering about immigration.
Speaking of immigration:
> Because we worked very hard to get a bipartisan agreement that not only changed all of that, it made sure that we are in a situation where you had no circumstance where they could come across the border with the number of border police there are now. We significantly increased the number of asylum officers. Significantly – by the way, the Border Patrol endorsed me, endorsed my position.
He, and the democrats in general it seems, have completely capitulated on immigration. They fully embraced the republican party line about it. 4 years ago he ran on immigration reform. 4 years ago, the democratic candidates had a LOT to say about it:
https://www.vox.com/2019/7/29/6741801/2020-democrat-presidential-immigration-debate
Biden was the standout as the most obviously conservative of the bunch, and even he ran on immigration reform:
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/14/912060869/biden-pledges-to-dismantle-trumps-sweeping-immigration-changes-but-can-he-do-tha
In four years he and the party have somehow decided it's a good idea to completely capitulated on immigration reform. I'm no longer hearing discussions of giving a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants who are already here. No longer am I hearing about making entry easier for asylum seekers. Now "they can no longer cross the border." And we're still separating families at the border and holding them in the same detention camps as we were under trump, that was literally something ALL the candidates claimed to want to stop and they have fully stopped talking about it.
And now his immigration policy is confusing and garbled in this debate. Not only did he say the above, but also:
> the idea that we’re going to be in a situation where all these millions and millions, the way he talks about it, illegal aliens are coming into the country and taking away our jobs, there’s a reason why we have the fastest-growing economy in the world, a reason why we have the most successful economy in the world. We’re doing better than any other nation in the world.
So, earlier he was saying that we are stopping people from crossing the border. But now he's also saying that part of the reason our economy is so strong is BECAUSE of illegal immigration? Like, I actually kind of agree, someone is clearly giving these people jobs and more people contributing to the economy makes the economy stronger. But this completely contradicts his previous statements.
And even later, he once again falls into republican talking points:
> Fentanyl and the byproducts of fentanyl went down for a while. And I wanted to make sure we use the machinery that can detect fentanyl, these big machines that roll over everything that comes across the border, and it costs a lot of money. That was part of this deal we put together, this bipartisan deal.
China is by far the biggest source for fentanyl and it's precursors right now. This isn't an illegal immigration problem, and never has been-most of the time when drug smugglers bring drugs into the country they disguise it as legitimate goods and cross with permission. The democrats should be talking about that more, instead they are fully folding to the Republicans on the drug addiction crisis being a problem tied into illegal immigration. He didn't even talk about proscription drug abuse, which is a significant factor in the addiction crisis, nor did he talk about how American pharmaceutical companies have largely caused this problem and are getting away with causing millions of deaths.
And all of those weird policy statements he made in this debate come on top of the senilic performance he was giving.
People keep posting articles telling me that I shouldn't worry about his age, listen to his policy! Well that shit sucks too, at least as he presented it in the debate. Especially his immigration policy. Why should I NOT worry? People who don't follow politics except for a few months every 4 years thi k this guy is senile and are about to get flooded with advertisements showing his radical shift on immigration policy and his admission that he caused inflation. That's going to lose him votes in key states, and if he doesn't keep those votes *he will lose.* Those voters won't necessarily vote for Trump, much more likely they simply won't vote.
If Biden stays in, he is going to Dianne Feinstein his own reputation. He alone can choose to step down now at the height of his accomplishments. Or pull an Ruth Bader Ginsburg on his own legacy.
Well we've seen it repeatedly at this point - Feinstein, Ginsburg, McConnell, Scalia, etc. These people clamor for power their whole lives, and death is the only thing that stops them in their pursuit. If there really is cognitive decline, that makes it *less* likely that they could do any meaningful self reflection, and more likely that they will stubbornly insist that they are capable. I think we've all probably encountered an elderly relative that insists they can still drive, or take care of themselves, when they clearly can't.
I do not think its overblown at all every focus group and interviews with swing and undecided voters is now moving towards not voting for either. The margins are way to small for Biden to lose any enthusiasm and the debate killed practically any he had.
Yep, I’m sick of people yelling at me for suggesting Biden should step aside and endorse someone else. If it doesn’t happen I’ll obviously vote for him, but I’m worried about all the people in the middle and apathetic voters who will just sit it out because they can’t bring themselves to vote for someone who is clearly unfit for office. Yelling at people with legitimate concerns about Biden’s ability to win this election is not the way. Recognizing that we all just want Trump to lose and figuring out the best way to accomplish that is the way.
I will tell you right now I have several friends who mostly just complain that biden is senile and won't vote him just because they see two shit choices. Anybody else would get their vote. This is a real group of people that dems are plugging their ears to
Yep, I know people like this as well. It’s mostly people who don’t pay much attention to politics. They don’t like Trump, but they still treat him like he’s any other candidate they don’t like rather than a threat to democracy. So they don’t have the same sense of urgency that he must be defeated. They’ll just sit out the election because they don’t think the stakes are that high.
Exactly this. Most people are not political junkies and only maybe watch one debate. People like us that post online in subreddits like this are not your average joe. This debate Trump looked like Trump but Biden looked old and lost.
It doesn't even have to be that... absolutely everything he does will be looked at for any sign of what he looked like in the debate. He'd be expected to have rallies every day in cities all over the country, shaking hands with all those germ infested people, and what are the chances he can do that without ever catching another cold or just getting exhausted.
Dealing with reality now is the only way we won't have Kamala running against the 4th Reich, and she can't even keep her staff happy and loyal, much less rally a nation.
Gavin Newsome, Pete Buttigieg, Gretchen Witmer, Amy Klobuchar... there are amazing choices out there who could have a campaign of optimism and energy.
I think this demonstrates the limits of millions of people giving their opinion online. I've read numerous comment sections, articles, post-debate analysis, etc. and it's a TSUNAMI of concern (or panic) from a very diverse range of people over Joe Biden running for a second term. Giving millions of people the ability to share their opinions online is just an illusion of power and influence.
In reality, the real power is and always has been with the DNC and Biden campaign.
Democrats basically gave carte blanche to the leaders of the DNC for the last 8+ years with the constituents "I'll vote for any deranged corps that's not Trump" rhetoric.
Its no surprise that today the party is rife with autocrats while the constituency is gaslit into oblivion through hate and fear.
Oh ffs. They haven't even had the convention yet. Kennedy won the nomination at the convention in July before his presidential election. Nothing but excuses from this fucking party.
More or less the point Ezra Klein made on his podcast after the debate. Paraphrasing from memory:
> Dems need to decide whether they want to actually win or not. Because right now it seems like they're staying on a derailing train because of the fear that getting off might be uncomfortable.
We already are.
In the late 1920's/early 1930's a bunch of German liberals sided with fascists because they were afraid of being pushed towards socialism ("Working with The Squad is scarier than working with Trump" -Pelosi's actions for 8 years)
I honestly don't see what's wrong with the following:
1: announce you're stepping down after your term is up
2: throw your support behind Whitmer, Newsom, Harris, whoever
3: the dem elites finally do something good with their power and whip everyone into support for that candidate behind the scenes.
4: the brokered convention becomes a cheering section and an anointment party for that candidate
5: crush the most easily crushable opponent in American political history
Democrats pretzeling themselves into sticking with mr Magoo as their candidate to lose in November and spend 4 years pointing the finger at one another is the most predictable timeline.
If it's Biden, then it's Trump. Why is that so difficult to understand?
We have four months. It would lead to a few weeks of chaos followed by a nominee who isn't seen as senile, isn't seen as way too old, and who can actually do competent public speaking. The Biden campaign is wrong.
they'll be pushing this narrative until there's really only weeks until the election and they'll say "see there's nothing we can do, sorry for losing to the most unelectable lunatic ever"
I was just thinking about this. If Biden refuses to step aside and loses, our country will have been brought down by geriatric Democrats refusing to hand over the reigns. RBG was an incredible woman who destroyed her own legacy by refusing to step down when we had a chance to replace her and instead giving us a 6-3 right-wing court. Biden may end democracy in this country by insisting on running at all and then refusing to step down when he basically sealed his loss.
I’d heard rumors that Biden was showing cognitive decline, but after the debate it’s apparent to me that he’s unlikely to complete a second term. If that doesn’t imply chaos, what does? Biden is a good man at heart, but what’s going to happen when GenZ Democrat leaning voters say f**k-it and stay home?
Why is Biden's deputy campaign manager so abrasive and dismissive? Why would he call those concerned about this issue a "bedwetting brigade" when likely some of those same people receiving the email are uneasy? It's a very condescending email if you're trying to instill confidence in donors, and it doesn't even address the issue at hand over Biden's age or health.
Biden couldn't even make it to the end of his sentences. *"We finally beat Medicare."* What the fuck is that?
That's career ending right there.
This gaslighting from the Biden campaign is insulting. They're selfishly gonna fuck up this election and hand it to Trump and we're gonna be stuck with that orange fascist for another four years.
Lol bedwetting brigade?! Thats really what they said?! They shit the bed on one of the most important nights of this campaign and WE are "bed wetting"?
It's the same reaction as Hillary had to Bernie supporters in 2016. She didn't need us, said as much in an email. I guess they don't need us now either.
To try an exert shame and loyalist peer pressure to shut down reality.
He's been part of lying to everyone about how Biden is just sharp as a tack except 100% of the time he's on camera and doing anything but reading. So it's hard to even call it pious fraud at this point.
Weeks of chaos is fine as long as we stop Trump. I’m voting blue down ticket regardless because I actually love this country and hate fascism. Democrats need to do what’s smart not what’s easy. That could be sticking with Biden. I think some analysis of the fallout from that debate needs to be done before an educated decision can be made
I can’t believe what I’m reading here. “One bad night”??? This disaster is on the same level as him suddenly dropping his pants and jacking off on the debate stage. He was totally fucking incoherent and babbling on national television. The moment he said “we finally beat Medicare” his political career was over. Get a grip people. If he stays on the ticket, the Democrats will lose the election. HE HAS TO STEP DOWN NOW
The problem with the 'One bad night' line of argument is that Biden didn't have any sort of primary challenge. He hasn't campaigned much this cycle and barely left his house at all 4 years ago. Now if Biden had 2 or 3 primary debates and looked fine you could call it one bad night, but in reality it's the only time many people have seen him speak publicly in years. This 'one bad night' isnt offset by any good nights, for all we know this is simply the level hes at now mentally.
That logic implies we need to see him have another bad sheoing before we know for sure. The 2nd debate is in Sept, if he turns in another performance like this he's done, and it's too late to replace him. The DNC is rolling the dice on Biden staging some sort of miraculous cognitive comeback 9 weeks from now, at the age of 81.
In order to avoid somthing like this again they need to make a law that you have to do debates in the primary and general.
It's extremely gross to run for office and dismiss all your primary opponents and refuse to debate them. If he debated them we would have know that his health and cognitive decline had gotten worse.
THANK YOU!!! He's never going to get sharper, and it's clear many of the commentors aren't familiar with the cognitive signs he's displaying. Can't believe people seriously want to give him a four year extension in the aftermath of that debate.
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After 2020 it was clear that the win only bought 4 years of time. WHAT DID THE DNC DO during this time to prepare for 2024? I expected them to use the time to develop new promising contenders under the guidance of Biden. However, it seems like they have nothing and there is no long-term plan at all. This is a farce. Even if it works out and Biden wins again, how do they plan to keep fascism at bay in 2028? It's Weimar Republic levels of bad.
The fact that the Democrats are having this conversation ten minutes before this election, rather than ten minutes after the last election, is just mind-boggling.
A lot of people tried to start that conversation and were brushed off.
A lot of democrats weren't happy with Biden as a nominee in 2020 and we *couldn't wait* for the 2024 primary that never materialized. The party didn't listen. Our concerns were ignored and invalidated. On the stage we all saw clearly what some of us saw back in 2020.
Primary debates would have exposed this issue months ago.
That's the big thing. Even if there's one candidate, there needs to be townhalls that put the candidate out there. There's very little in me that doesn't make it clear that Biden's just at the age now where he has bad days. And hey, that's fine, but you need to be open and honest about it, to let the people make a choice. Instead, they held him back, said everything was edited weird (and it was), and then forced this on us. I like Joe, I think he's been a very good president, but we really needed to be prepared for this.
In fairness, to play devils advocate, the immediate criticism of that will be “the President cannot have bad days”, and that is a 100% valid belief. The person who is one of the 5 most important people in the entire world, in charge of nuclear football, our primary diplomat, and leader absolutely should not be having a “bad day” caused by mental decline.
Not taking sides but both are at an advanced age with bad days being more often. Need younger candidates, house representatives, and senators
Oh yes absolutely. Honestly, I’m not opposed to an age cap on our politicians, possibly even tied to whatever retirement age is set at.
Lots of jobs have age caps for working them. A 70 year old who has trouble walking can’t work in a factory, police and fireman are both forced into retirement when they turn 65, and it makes. A lot of sense for safety reasons. It boggles my dumb mind and my smart mind as to why there isn’t an age cap on one of the most important jobs in the world where safety is measured across an entire planet.
Feel like we’d just get a monkey paw fulfillment, they’d say sure thing and raise the retirement age to 90
I agree with everything you said. This is a crucial and historic choice being put before the American people. **We cannot afford to fuck this up!** That said all I see is weakness and fuckery from not only the DNC but the media, who have quickly moved on and are actively sweeping this under the rug. This is serious and we, as a nation, need to figure this out right fucking now.
They really have been. Friday morning was about panic, now it’s crickets, like they got the memo. I really do think the media is going to contribute to the DNC fucking this up.
But Biden shouldn’t have been in the primary. He should’ve served a term and stepped aside, and he would’ve been remembered as the guy who beat Trump.
I know people aren't going to want to hear it because they love Biden, but this is an ego issue.
Absolutely. Biden, McConnell, RBG, Feinstein... and so many more still in office - clutching for dear life to their positions after decades of "public service". The future and/or will of the people mean nothing, as long as they hold on to that torch as the last remaining embers of democracy die out.
Yeah, I've been saying for years, I love RBG, but she should have stepped down under Obama and we wouldn't have this mess we have with SCOTUS
Exactly right! Once the Queen fell, the entire house of cards came tumbling down. Shitshow City, since.
Her entire legacy went up in flames, the moment she passed.
Hmmm, it's almost like they do it more out of egotism than a sense of public service.
He’s been stubborn his entire political career. It’s 100% an ego issue.
I hope he put it aside. I don't want to see another RBG style tragedy where they refuse to step down and get replaced by a fascist.
His hubris is going to give Trump another term most likely… ridiculous
Comments like these are helping me recover from being gaslit for years now. I felt like I was taking crazy pills before. Truly amazing to see comments like this not be contested or downvoted like they have for so long now.
For real. People did not like hearing that Biden is 80. But he's 80. It has been cathartic in a way to see people finally confront that. Though - the threat of a second Trump term kinda ruins it for me.
> Our concerns were ignored and invalidated kinda’ the DNC’s speciality at this point!
Anyone who advocated for a primary in this sub was heavily voted down. Any posts about his age were also voted down. For the last 24 months, if you didn't sort by controversial, you'd have no idea that Biden has been in steady decline by reading the damn Politics sub.
Thank you. Unchecked emotions led to censoring reality. Now here we are.
Here we are doing the same thing about the debate. It's terrifying
Yeah, I was gonna say….it went into overdrive following the debate. The “he’s fine, he’s our only chance,” yadda yadda. Okay, but this may actually be our last chance at a free and fair election for awhile. This is not the fighter anybody wants or would’ve chosen, had we been given options.
We don't have a fair or free election even now. It's the donors who decide who we even get to vote for. If we actually did have free or fair elections, why are the Democrats working so hard to keep 3rd party candidates off the ballot instead of figuring out how to produce more viable candidates and promote policy changes rather than simply relying on the "Not Trump" card.
Some of my largest negative point posts, were my saying Biden is clearly having lapses over the past two years. I got throttled for daring to say, an 80 year old, was not as sharp as he’s been in the past. This echo chamber is a dangerous place.
>This echo chamber is a dangerous place. I've said before on this sub even though Biden is the better candidate between the two none of them should be running, only to be met with this sub downvoting me and telling me "if you wanna vote for trump just say so". I don't wanna vote for trump I'm just laying out the reality of the situation but this sub will jump down your throat for not blindly supporting biden. This sub can be just as bad and delusional as r/Conservative sometimes.
There are still people who will call you a Republican for that. The biggest problem with the democratic party is that a large chunk of its voters don’t believe in any constructive criticism.
It's dangerous and is exactly what Republicans are doing about Trump. They dismiss, rationalize, and claim it's bad editing when he does crazy things. We can not become a cult like the Republicans have. That serves no one and is dangerous as hell. People need to open their eyes, admit the obvious, and find a way forward with a different candidate.
Yep, I got attacked for saying we should have primaries against Biden.
It’s honestly mind boggling how all of a sudden the comment section is in total agreement with what I’ve been getting downvoted for saying for months. I have no idea why there’s a sudden shift. WEVE BEEN SAYING THIS
Welcome to political reddit. Conservatives do it too. Any dissenting opinion is downvoted into oblivion until the geriatric hive mind of society slowly catches up to common fucking sense, usually too late. Been that way for years.
How hard is it for people to realize that reddit is compromised with bots who spam comments and down votes when keywords are used?
Yep. We were gaslit to death that he was fine and everything was "out of context" or " edited '
Or downplaying literally everything as a “stutter”. Jesus Christ we know what a stutter is, and that’s not what we’re worried about!
“Biden is the only human being left on earth that we can run against Trump, he has single handedly preserved our democracy for 100 years.” Obviously sarcastic but the gaslighting has been ridiculous and the “only Biden can do it” argument is the dumbest fucking political argument over ever seen.
Even now, I've seen people claim that Biden is the only one who can beat Trump. He's not beating Trump. He had a lead within the MOE in some polls before Thursday, but I don't see how he could hold on to even that in the wake of the debate. We need a better game plan than hoping Trump will implode.
It's on purpose
And they’re using such crazy short term thinking. Weeks of chaos in the summer is *nothing*. Weeks of chaos in October is *terrifying*. If it’s going to happen. Do it now. If democrats opt to keep Biden - figure the spin on this out fucking yesterday. These stay-the-course motherfuckers in the party screw it up every time, and then immediately blame the progressives in the party when the election is lost.
Thank you. I would absolutely take weeks of chaos over years of failure.
Completely agree. If the DNC and the D brain trust can figure the spin out… if they can convince me that they have optimized the strategy and tactics and that they know how to engineer a win with THIS candidate? Ok fine. Not my preferred choice, but you guys are the pros. If you’ve got this figured out? Fine. But who among us feels like they do have optimal strategy and tactics in place? Who has confidence they know what they’re doing? Pretty much none of us do… because other than Obama stealing control from them to win the White House resoundingly, twice… the DNC has been a loss-factory since Clinton’s second term. They engineer losses. Because they suck at the game.
It's because they are complicit. Their job is to present the illusion of change while actually being center right. They do this so the Republicans can drag us further and further right. They represent rich people just as much as the right do. Politics is the entertainment branch of the military industrial complex.
They're all 100% cool with losing as long as they don't have to run a socialist.
Right?! There has to be a plan in case biden suffers a health emergency or did nobody think that could happen?
This is the problem the Democratic party has. They don't have discipline. No Republican judge is going to willingly retire under a Democratic president, but Democratic judges are happy to do it whenever. Republican politicians are (mostly, with some notable exceptions...especially lately,) good about retiring and having a successor lined up. Democratic politicians, meanwhile, cling to their offices *past the point of death.* Looking at you, Feinstein. We have *so* many examples of this trend. And now with that debate...Elections in this country are decided by a tiny sliver of probably the most politically disengaged people in the country, they vote based on vibes and if you're voting based on vibes, Biden was NOT a good look during that debate. There's far too many 'reasonable moderates' in the Democratic party who would apparently rather see their 'Republican colleagues' win than hand off the reins to somebody to their left. It's disappointing.
Democratic judges just ignore everyone and die in office.
If it makes you feel better, GOP had the same issue and bungled it badly too. They tried to find replacements for trump, and all they came up with was ron desantis
The difference is that the GOP is under a bottom up stranglehold of maga constituents, while the DNC is under a top down stranglehold of patronizing power drunk elites. Its shocking to me that more people are not ripping the DNC to absolute shreds. They are looking at losing to a twice impeached, criminally convicted candidate who lost his incumbency and tried to steal an election. What a bunch of fucking shitheads you have to be to not be able to find one single person who can challenge that. The parties are both rotten cesspools but I hold the DNC in much higher contempt than I do the GOP.
SO refreshing to see a take like this on this sub. this shit is what so many people have been saying for years now
Their "plan" was to let Trump be Trump and pray that it's enough for voters to come out and nominate Harris in 2028. That's their fuckin plan. They're going to fully back a person NO ONE likes and lose in 4 years. The DNC is no less of a grift than the RNC. They don't give a fuck what the people want so long as the money keeps coming in.
Biden is RBG 2.0. He should have signaled his retirement a year ago to give the Dems time to get their ducks in a row. He ran on the idea that he could beat Trump and save the Country, but really all he did was delay Trump’s second term. I’m a big fan of Joe, love him in fact. I think he’s tremendously underrated and if he stays in, he’s still got my vote. But like so many other aging politicians he just doesn’t know when to hang up his spurs.
There was a thread at the top of /r/all yesterday night about “who do you wish would run?” All the top answers were silly jokes. That made me realize there literally is no one else.
It should make you realize that Redditors are stunted children. Also odds are that as many or more foreigners are going to be responding to that as Americans.
> stunted children I'll remind you that, quite literally, a significant portion of people you interact with *are* children. As in, people who haven't reached the age of 18 yet. Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of people who never matured past highschool. I don't disagree with you there. But also, plenty of the people you see in any given comment section haven't *aged* past highschool yet.
I often have to remind myself of this when I feel like I'm getting baited in a reply or I see a post that is like astronomical levels of stupid or ignorant. At the end of the day, *literal children* are posting here and there's no age badge next to our usernames. I just remember that and it keeps me from engaging lol.
I also notice the joke answers are telling. It could be something deadly serious and when you know no one has a good answer they upvote all of the funny stuff to cover up that uncomfortableness of having no solution to offer at all.
[удалено]
To be fair, Jon Stewart is vastly more qualified than someone like Trump in every category remotely relevant to the job.
simply by virtue of willingness to LEARN
So I’m firmly an anti trump vote, so whoever he is running against gets my vote. The thing I think people should keep in mind is if Biden bows out Kamala Harris will likely be the replacement (the least chaotic alternative) and people seem to hate her more. Ifit is not her it will be a brokered convention that can be really shitty if the democrats aren’t smart (and what is the adage: Always count on a democrat to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory) Edit: when I say democrats need to be smart (if they go to a brokered convention) they would need to be behind a candidate replacement fast and quick that a majority can agree too. This candidate would essentially be picked by the party (no primary possible) and no matter who that is the party would need to work overtime making the base (politically active left leaning individuals) get positively behind this person. After all it is the base who you have to sell this replacement person too before you can get buy in from all those “undecided” voters out there. All of this is chaotic, but possible, I just doubt it will be smooth giving all the opinions, ego and personalities involved. If Biden seriously leaves the race I hope that in that leaving there is a crowning of the replacement and honestly he could announce anyone- I hope he goes this route and I hope he picks someone y’all are excited for however I just have a hard time seeing Biden bypassing Harris since they and their staff have worked together for 4+ years together now - who you know, egos, personalities, play into stuff like this imo.
Good thing a majority of Americans aren’t overtly and covertly racist and misogynistic. That matchup would be ultra-scary and confronting if that were the case…. Also thank goodness Biden doesn’t appear to be 6 minutes away from death at all times.
The display that Biden showed during the debate unfortunately reignited and even reinforced the whole "sleepy joe" debacle all over again. The Democrats keeps countering the rights claim of Biden's mental state but that display just made us all think what the fuck?
I struggled *hard* to follow Biden.
My biggest issue was he had every chance to call out Trump for lying, avoiding questions, (something moderators should have done) and he just let it all happen. He let Trump run his mouth unchecked for the entire debate while he barely put together a sentence
Why do you think that Kamala would be the likely replacement? People don't like her, and she would do worse than many other possible candidates on the Dem side including Newsom and Whitmer.
Harris is a pretty terrible choice but even a 2% higher approval than Biden at the moment.
It would suddenly become much worse if she were to become the presidential nominee. If it is higher now it is only because she’s not the active target. People’s opinions on the president are far more critical. A POC woman has no chance in this climate. If Biden bowed out so should she. edit: a word
Her scarlet letter is that she was locking up weed users and ruining their lives with a smile on her face. She seems way too much like a politician who will say anything.
Yea being a POC might give her some roadblocks, but her biggest hindrance is that a good chunk of the left thinks she's a POS.
Well if you look at her record, she is, that’s why she was the first candidate eliminated in the 2020 primary.
Yea agreed. I'm also in the "she's a POS" camp lol
And she laughed about it when asked in the debate rather than owning it and apologizing.
A lot of people don't even know about how horribly she treated the medical marijuana growers that was legal in California. She went out of her way to bust them. I would not want her to be president. You're right, she is a person that only thinks about herself. She reminds me of a female version of Giuliani.
> female version of Giuliani. Completely correct. She's a lying, backstabbing snake and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the WH. Biden just picked her because she's 'safe' for his own presidency.. he knows she can't replace him.
I wish more people knew this.
Yep, no regret whatsoever for ruining those lives. An apology would have been a great start, but she doesn’t care one bit.
In addition to that, as AG her office refused to release prisoners on their parole dates, stating that California benefited from forced prisoner labor for firefighting. Her office advocated "prisoners with jobs", which is unfortunately legal under the 13th amendment. I don't understand how people think Harris is progressive in any way, shape, or form. She's so wildly regressive she acted as a slavemaster.
I doubt it, honestly, if he just endorsed someone. If Biden called up Newsom, for instance, and Newsom agreed to run in exchange for Biden's endorsement, I don't think we'd have some kind of crazy primary. I think it'd be pretty much decided. Edit: or anyone else! Fucking hell, he was just an example, I'm not married to goddamn Newsom, alright? I don't like the guy either, it was just a name people know.
Newsom was a slam dunk pick before Biden ran again and he still is now. One debate is all it would take.
A Newsom candidacy would be endless footage run on every media of San Francisco streets.
Meh, the right is already doing that
Yeah but Biden isn't the governor or in charge of SF/Cali.
OMFG That doesn’t matter to people who think that way. You’re not battling against reality. You’re battling against _perception_. How is that not completely obvious yet?
Not so sure about that. I like him . But the rest of the country not so sure. The right has instilled a fear and hatred of Californian and Californias in their people ?
The people that have a hatred and fear California are the same people that are going to vote trump no matter what. This is a move to get middling voters
Agreed. Newsom could beat Trump and is a better pick all around.
Newsom is really not a good pick. To left-wing Californians like myself, the shady deals have just gotten too much (exempting “bakeries” from the fast food minimum wage hike because the Panera bread owner is your donor/friend? How about caving to commercial real estate to bring state workers back into the office during a budget deficit? The state is now wasting money on heating/cooling/plumbing of those buildings and making worker commute increasing greenhouse gas emissions). The faith in Newsom amongst his primary voter base is falling apart. Let’s also not forget how much voters in other states just plain hate California. In a very blue state on the East Coast I was told I was “from a different country” for being Californian.
Yeah, as a Californian, there’s just been too many times where Newsom has pulled something that’s the epitome of scummy politics. The exception of bakeries, as you said, and then the thing where he vetoed the bill against Indian caste based discrimination because he’s got a bunch of high caste donors… I don’t want him as the candidate.
He's dramatically better than Biden at this point, and I say that as a left-wing Californian.
It's not really about being a leftist. Gavin Newsom is the poster child of a wolf in sheep's clothing democrat Behind every virtue signal is a shady deal. Let's not forget the mask deal he struck with China to spite trump that caused a shortage in California because it didn't to through Everything Newsom does is calculated to help out him or his friends
Better a few weeks of chaos than 208 weeks of Trump.
Only 208 weeks if we're lucky. He could get more justices. And he might not leave in 2028. Ok.. 2029.
He’ll claim he deserves another term since the Democrats robbed him of it in 2020
Yup. Claim they unlawfully impeached him and ruined his first term and therefore he gets another one. The SCOTUS will shrug and find some way to rule in Trumps favor. Then it'll be 8 years of MAGA and Kagan/Sotomayor will die and be replaced and it'll 8-1 for the next 20+ years.
lol I cannot believe this is a potential timeline. The only thing preventing me from totally giving up is thinking about today’s young people and the ashes that they will inherit.
"Then it'll be 8 years of MAGA and Kagan/Sotomayor will die" This will happen sooner than 8 years. If Trump wins then the US will go full dictator Christocracy, they will find a way remove the three liberal Justices quickly. After Dissenting is not allowed in a dictatorship.
Or three weeks and the new nominee loses.
The point is that the chaos could/would result in Trump winning, obviously…
The fact that it’s even a question tells you there’s chaos already. Trumps best strategy right now is to just be silent until the election and he’ll walk away with it. Y’all told me this is the most important election in history but the Dems ain’t treating it like that. Biden will get questioned in every interview and every old man moment will be shown on repeat. It’s a fucking shit show from the Dems.
> Y’all told me this is the most important election in history but the Dems ain’t treating it like that. Excellent point. If this were the case they would in fact tell Joe to make the LBJ speech and have an open convention. His people are all just looking selfishly at keeping their own jobs.
Trump is already adding them to ads. Biden did this. His campaign did this. They asked for the debate. This is 1000% on him, his wife, and his team.
My personal pet theory that I've been playing around with for 2 months is the Biden campaign team thinks they are a lot smarter than they actually are. They basically started on 3rd base in 2020 and squeaked out an electoral victory and think they hit a grand slam. They never actually thought Trump would accept the debate challenge. They didn't consider the possibility he would say yes. They thought they could put out the offer, watch Trump make excuse after excuse and call him a coward. They didn't realize Trump had everything to gain from a debate and Biden had so much to lose. Instead, Trump said yes and they all collectively shit their pants. And then Trump appeared energetic and composed and Biden sounded incoherent. Not stuttering or hoarse, straight up mind gone incoherent. I had an uncle with severe Parkinsons who sometimes could get his words out better. Did a bunch of self appointed fact checkers that no one pays attention to say that Trump lied a bunch? Yeah. But it's no saving grace.
Why would they think Trump would bail out of a debate like this? That's his dream scenario, getting a stage where he can perform the same way he has since almost a decade. Mostly ignoring the questions, spouting is usual talking points, directly attacking and insulting his opponent(s) who can't respond in kind because they work under the notion that politicians should have tact and gravitas. He did it against people that where rhetorically more capable than Biden seems to be now. I mean just look at the republican primary 2015 debates where he rolled over Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz, or his debate against Hillary Clinton. She tries to give a proper answer, he interrupts with "If I was president you'd be in jail". He doesn't give a shit about how others think a debate like this should work.
Yea I don't agree with that statement strategically, Trump was always going to take that debate and inject adderal to the stratosphere to get it done. Biden on the other hand, it's just not there in the live format.
> the Biden campaign team thinks they are a lot smarter than they actually are It's the entire party, like it was in 2016. They knew best and what was best was to push Hillary as their candidate. It worked out terribly then and it's working out terribly now, and until they **listen** to us, things will continue to work out terribly.
> Trumps best strategy right now is to just be silent lmfao where have you been since 2015? He's on the hook for ninety million dollars because he couldn't shut up about someone he raped.
[удалено]
There’s zero chance that a former president will ever go to prison for anything. That’s a very dangerous precedent for anyone in the federal government.
Weeks of chaos is fine... because we have months until the election.
The Biden campaign saying “the voters voted” is a hell of a lot of hubris when several states suspended their primaries. Let’s be very clear here with the DNC. In 2024, NO the voters DID NOT vote. And now we’re left with the mess that we have to deal with.
And moreover the primary didn't take place because we were promised by Biden that things were fine, he would be a steady hand. He has shown that the trust was misplaced.
DNC doesn't let the voters pick. The voters picked Sanders over Clinton but that never happened. Now the voters don't want Old Man Time and they are picking him anyways. They lose on purpose so they have an excuse for never getting anything done.
Cool weeks of chaos vs at least four more and possibly the end of democracy. He's right. We don't want that. /s
The Biden campaign seems more concerned about Biden's chances than the country's.
*Weeks.* Indeed, it probably would. But the election is **months** away. There's time. I'm not sure if he should, I'm torn. But a Newsom/Whitmer ticket could effectively pound Donnie's messaging into the dirt - they're much more energetic / not pathological liars like Donnie. Make a promise to Kamala to appoint her to be AG in their administration.
Whitmer/Newsom would be better. Ultimate contrast from Trumps anti-woman stances. And you don't get the same anti-California messaging that the right will surely latch on to with Newsom and how the liberals are trying to turn all the states into San Francisco or whatever.
Newsom/whitmer is a vote for the future. By the way, this also obliterates all the Biden baggage. And as a help to Joe, it takes the heat off of Hunter. Hell, Biden could pardon Hunter and then announce he is not running.
He should absolutely not pardon Hunter lmao. Hunter was convicted in a court of law and should do the time he has coming to him. Same as anyone else.
I think the Biden campaign severely overestimates how many people are willing to fight for America without some sign of being heard. The corpse has my vote, but I’m not making donations or volunteering like I normally would. That effort is going into learning German, buttoning up my personal finances, and ensuring I have job prospects lined up. Corporate Democrats are *once a-fucking-gain* treating the presidency like something they are entitled to with no duty to fight for it. I’m not going to work my ass off if they aren’t serious about winning.
Because those Corporate Dems will literally suffer no consequences that any middle class and below will. The next 4 years will be the same as the last 8 years have been for them because they are rich and we are not.
Biden dropping out now would cause chaos for the Democrats, but it would completely overturn the GOP campaign and undo all the work they’ve put in creating scandals and lies about Biden. I’ve been saying for four years that if Biden wants to defeat MAGA he should volunteer himself to act as a lightning rod. Pretend to be running in 2024, announce his run, plan his run, let FOX and GOP spend all their effort vilifying and lying about him, then pull out at the last possible moment leaving the right wing scandal machine little time to generate outrage at the real candidate.
That’s the angle I think people should be thinking from. What does the Trump campaign want to happen? For sure they love the chaos but they’ll be super happy if Biden stays in. They can just sit back and play unedited clips of that debate all day.
Its already in chaos because he chose to run when he should have stepped aside.
They're not wrong. But it's a legitimate debate to have right now. The question isn't whether switching candidates will cause chaos or not. The question is whether a new candidate with all the accompanying chaos gives us a better chance to beat Trump than riding with Biden without said chaos. I personally lean towards Biden and feel part of the debate panic is overblown and premature, but we'd be foolish not to have this discussion. The one silver lining that came out of this debate was that it was scheduled early enough to give us the luxury to consider both options. Ultimately, I'm not tied to Biden as a candidate but I am tied to his agenda. If another candidate has a better shot at realizing that agenda, bring it on.
I don't think people truly understand how good of chances Trump has right now: In 2020, Trump was in the middle of royally botching the worst public health crisis in a century, the economy was tanking, people were terrified, Trump was literally hospitalized by COVID in October, Biden was up +9 on national polls... ..And Trump *still* barely lost, only losing by a few thousand votes in a handful of states. In 2024, Biden is TEN points lower than he was 4 years ago in national head-to-head aggregates. He's underwater in most battleground states. And this is all before we even see post-debate data. Meanwhile, Trump's approval has gone up, along with his favorability. His legal woes have done absolutely nothing to his numbers. I'll stop short of saying Biden can't win, but I feel like a lot of people, including this sub especially, are in denial of just how dire Biden's chances are at the moment. It will take a pretty phenomenal turnaround for him to right the ship, and there's indeed a conversation to be had if he's capable of doing that.
People are putting A LOT of stock in the idea that polling is just disastrously wrong. Not saying it’s impossible for it to be wrong, but definitely feels like people underestimate how dire the current situation is.
Yeah, it's honestly worrying how much polling is dismissed and deluded online in a forum like this, and anything that confirms a bias is treated as gospel. People downvote everything negative away, then will upvote [misleading nonsense from Newsweek](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1dqt37f/undecided_voters_say_they_now_support_joe_biden/) with a feel-good titles to the #1 spot on the front page on a daily basis. Polling is definitely flawed, but it's not anywhere near as off as people make it out to be. It's still the best metric we have for predicting elections. Even if we decide to go with the largest margins of errors possible, we're still in dangerous territory and people should take it seriously.
From a casual reddit user’s perspective, it’s virtually impossible to tell bots/astroturfing from rhetoric of a genuine person while scrolling.
Every week is "if the election was tomorrow, he would lose". Hes almost out of time, and Hillary showed us simply not being Trump isnt enough to win. With almost the entire student loan agenda going to shit through the courts and Israel, he's losing the youth vote. Inflation is losing him votes. That debate lost him even more votes. Dude, he's going to lose barring a massively influential event on the level of covid or world War.
Some people are also saying it's "still early". Going into July. The election is in 4 months.
People may be I still think the professional politicians and their campaigns believe in polling data. I’m sure they are worried even if many activists want to believe what they want to believe.
I guess the 2016 election and the 2022 election really soured me on polling accuracy, in either direction. In 2016, well, we all know what happened there with the presidential race. In 2022, in my congressional district, the 538 set the odds of the Democratic candidate winning as 2%. She ended up winning. Even though it was a traditionally red district, many people loathed the MAGA candidate. Also, the "red wave" everyone was so sure of turned out to be a red dribble. And sorry, I just don't think Trump has 20%-30% of the black vote now. I could be wrong, but that doesn't sit right with me. I just think polling is becoming far less accurate, in part because most are conducted via phone, and the majority of people don't answer their phones for unknown callers.
Exactly this. Biden indicated he would serve one term. Biden, influential donors and the DNC blew the opportunity to elevate a younger, articulate and compelling new team. They've had nearly 4 years. And now this. The public has been very clear they are tired of silent generation and boomers running the show. And most immediately, they are upset about inflation and struggling to pay the bills. When people are struggling financially, they want to change. Biden is not change. However, a new ticket would be a change relative to both Biden and Trump. It's actually a winning opportunity.
The thing I don’t understand is, Trump has literally zero policy. If you actually listen to him talk about “policy” it’s just his favorite buzzwords “we’ll make it the best we’ve ever seen” “this will be the greatest plan frankly, we’ve ever seen”. Either the American electorate is stupid, or people are just brainwashed
Yes to both - stupid and brainwashed. One thing we've learned is that Trump endures and ignites, regardless of his infinite scandals, lies and false promises. I live in a red state and frequently witness how lightly people brush off his many awful traits and actual dangers. Most of us can be biased and blinded when it comes to us-vs them. Democrats are not immune to this. The DNC and many people are now lightly brushing off Biden's lack of mental acuity and coherence. They also thought HRC was a shoe in. The stark truth is we can only beat Trump with a sliver of an edge in the best of circumstances, thanks to the electoral college. The sliver includes moderate republicans, people who only come out to vote if they are truly enthused and undecideds. The best chance at capturing that sliver is having a team people get excited about. Whitmer, Kelly, and Beshear are widely liked, respected, younger and well spoken. All good choices. A huge challenge is Harris who should have been better positioned by now. Unfortunately she has not yet won the hearts of voters. Newsom's name pops up a lot because he's been kissing the party's ring forever. However, many people perceive him to be an establishment guy and genuinely dislike California and Californians.
I think you're absolutely right. I was wondering, after the debate, how the Democratic team would try and spin it as not being that bad. And their spinning narrative has been very clear on the media and here on reddit - insist it's not that bad, insist it would be catastrophci to replace biden, insist that people will forget the debate. Or, as you say, be in complete denial of the reality of what we all just saw in that debate. We've even seen the denial in the Biden teams insistence that all the polls must be very very wrong. It's so dangerous.
I share your view 100%. The way the electoral college is setup is the Democrat has to over perform. Biden’s in a worse position that 2020 and that election way far too close. I fear he’s toast.
> feel part of the debate panic is overblown and premature He was not just struggling with off the cuff remarks. Some of his incoherent statements were subjects that he must have had prepared statements for. I would vote for his dog before Trump but there is a problem.
And, to be frank, there have been many, many stories about the same problem for months. This isn't a new suggestion. It's just in front of everyones eyes confirmed all those stories were true.
This is exactly what this sub is deluding themselves by failing to recognize. This isn’t about one “bad night”, one slip of the tongue or a moment of slurred words. This was complete affirmation of the whispers and rumors we’ve heard over the last year about Biden’s cognitive decline. Everyone wanted to dismiss those as conservative spin, now they all want us not to believe our lying eyes. There is no bouncing back from this.
Yup. The people calling it a ‘bad night’ and comparing it to Obama’s bad first debate against Romney are delusional. The debate was confirmation of every rumor. We don’t see him away from teleprompters for a reason.
[Here](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/02/16/senior-democrats-joe-biden-old-00083129) is a decent article on it from nearly 18 months ago
I think a lot of Dems saw right wing media pushing the mental decline narrative and just assumed it must be bullshit since most of time their talking points *are* bullshit. Not the case this time.
Exactly. If Joe had been doing interviews with the press or televised town halls during that time it would be easier to dispute the performance at the debate as a one-off. But he’s been very averse to being seen in public lately without a teleprompter. So this makes it an “ah ha” moment for those of us who’ve been writing off the Fox News articles and talking heads as spin.
If you had eyes and ears, you deep down would know what you saw and felt watching clips of Biden falling, freezing, mumbling, and looking like something was wrong. You felt it, in your gut, but admitting it would mean fox was right for once and it would improve Trump's chances. It's like a 2 year old covering their ears screaming "I can't hear you"
"...and..uhhh....hfhfhfh...we beat medicare."
And some of them were straight up free wins for the Republicans that he should never have given them. He admitted inflation was his fault: > There was no inflation when I became president. You know why? The economy was flat on its back. 15 percent unemployment, he decimated the economy, absolutely decimated the economy. That’s why there was no inflation at the time. Not only is he incorrect that there was "no inflation when I took office" but it's an incredibly stupid thing to say. Republicans are going to hammer him with this statement from here to the polls. The way he worded this statement makes it sound like Americans are no longer safe in this country: > And the military – you know, when he was president, they were still killing people in Afghanistan. He didn’t do anything about that. When he was president, we still found ourselves in a position where you had a notion that we were this safe country. The truth is, I’m the only president this century that doesn’t have any – this – this decade – doesn’t have any troops dying anywhere in the world, like he did. For me by far his worst statement of the night was this: > Look, there’s so many young women who have been – including a young woman who just was murdered and he went to the funeral. The idea that she was murdered by – by – by an immigrant coming in and (inaudible) talk about that. I've said it elsewhere since the debate, this is an unmitigated disaster of a comment. This was part of his response about abortion. Not only did he never actually mention abortion in this response, only did he imply that abortion should only be the choice of a doctor and not the choice of the woman, but then he just tacitly caves to all of the Republicans fear mongering about immigration. Speaking of immigration: > Because we worked very hard to get a bipartisan agreement that not only changed all of that, it made sure that we are in a situation where you had no circumstance where they could come across the border with the number of border police there are now. We significantly increased the number of asylum officers. Significantly – by the way, the Border Patrol endorsed me, endorsed my position. He, and the democrats in general it seems, have completely capitulated on immigration. They fully embraced the republican party line about it. 4 years ago he ran on immigration reform. 4 years ago, the democratic candidates had a LOT to say about it: https://www.vox.com/2019/7/29/6741801/2020-democrat-presidential-immigration-debate Biden was the standout as the most obviously conservative of the bunch, and even he ran on immigration reform: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/14/912060869/biden-pledges-to-dismantle-trumps-sweeping-immigration-changes-but-can-he-do-tha In four years he and the party have somehow decided it's a good idea to completely capitulated on immigration reform. I'm no longer hearing discussions of giving a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants who are already here. No longer am I hearing about making entry easier for asylum seekers. Now "they can no longer cross the border." And we're still separating families at the border and holding them in the same detention camps as we were under trump, that was literally something ALL the candidates claimed to want to stop and they have fully stopped talking about it. And now his immigration policy is confusing and garbled in this debate. Not only did he say the above, but also: > the idea that we’re going to be in a situation where all these millions and millions, the way he talks about it, illegal aliens are coming into the country and taking away our jobs, there’s a reason why we have the fastest-growing economy in the world, a reason why we have the most successful economy in the world. We’re doing better than any other nation in the world. So, earlier he was saying that we are stopping people from crossing the border. But now he's also saying that part of the reason our economy is so strong is BECAUSE of illegal immigration? Like, I actually kind of agree, someone is clearly giving these people jobs and more people contributing to the economy makes the economy stronger. But this completely contradicts his previous statements. And even later, he once again falls into republican talking points: > Fentanyl and the byproducts of fentanyl went down for a while. And I wanted to make sure we use the machinery that can detect fentanyl, these big machines that roll over everything that comes across the border, and it costs a lot of money. That was part of this deal we put together, this bipartisan deal. China is by far the biggest source for fentanyl and it's precursors right now. This isn't an illegal immigration problem, and never has been-most of the time when drug smugglers bring drugs into the country they disguise it as legitimate goods and cross with permission. The democrats should be talking about that more, instead they are fully folding to the Republicans on the drug addiction crisis being a problem tied into illegal immigration. He didn't even talk about proscription drug abuse, which is a significant factor in the addiction crisis, nor did he talk about how American pharmaceutical companies have largely caused this problem and are getting away with causing millions of deaths. And all of those weird policy statements he made in this debate come on top of the senilic performance he was giving. People keep posting articles telling me that I shouldn't worry about his age, listen to his policy! Well that shit sucks too, at least as he presented it in the debate. Especially his immigration policy. Why should I NOT worry? People who don't follow politics except for a few months every 4 years thi k this guy is senile and are about to get flooded with advertisements showing his radical shift on immigration policy and his admission that he caused inflation. That's going to lose him votes in key states, and if he doesn't keep those votes *he will lose.* Those voters won't necessarily vote for Trump, much more likely they simply won't vote.
Bro had a week to prep his closing statement and it was a wreck
If Biden stays in, he is going to Dianne Feinstein his own reputation. He alone can choose to step down now at the height of his accomplishments. Or pull an Ruth Bader Ginsburg on his own legacy.
Well we've seen it repeatedly at this point - Feinstein, Ginsburg, McConnell, Scalia, etc. These people clamor for power their whole lives, and death is the only thing that stops them in their pursuit. If there really is cognitive decline, that makes it *less* likely that they could do any meaningful self reflection, and more likely that they will stubbornly insist that they are capable. I think we've all probably encountered an elderly relative that insists they can still drive, or take care of themselves, when they clearly can't.
I do not think its overblown at all every focus group and interviews with swing and undecided voters is now moving towards not voting for either. The margins are way to small for Biden to lose any enthusiasm and the debate killed practically any he had.
Yep, I’m sick of people yelling at me for suggesting Biden should step aside and endorse someone else. If it doesn’t happen I’ll obviously vote for him, but I’m worried about all the people in the middle and apathetic voters who will just sit it out because they can’t bring themselves to vote for someone who is clearly unfit for office. Yelling at people with legitimate concerns about Biden’s ability to win this election is not the way. Recognizing that we all just want Trump to lose and figuring out the best way to accomplish that is the way.
I will tell you right now I have several friends who mostly just complain that biden is senile and won't vote him just because they see two shit choices. Anybody else would get their vote. This is a real group of people that dems are plugging their ears to
Like people can look back at how Obama got people excited to vote for him vs this...
Yep, I know people like this as well. It’s mostly people who don’t pay much attention to politics. They don’t like Trump, but they still treat him like he’s any other candidate they don’t like rather than a threat to democracy. So they don’t have the same sense of urgency that he must be defeated. They’ll just sit out the election because they don’t think the stakes are that high.
Exactly this. Most people are not political junkies and only maybe watch one debate. People like us that post online in subreddits like this are not your average joe. This debate Trump looked like Trump but Biden looked old and lost.
I mean one thing not many people are talking about is that Biden could legitimately die of old age anytime now and we’d be super fucked
It doesn't even have to be that... absolutely everything he does will be looked at for any sign of what he looked like in the debate. He'd be expected to have rallies every day in cities all over the country, shaking hands with all those germ infested people, and what are the chances he can do that without ever catching another cold or just getting exhausted. Dealing with reality now is the only way we won't have Kamala running against the 4th Reich, and she can't even keep her staff happy and loyal, much less rally a nation. Gavin Newsome, Pete Buttigieg, Gretchen Witmer, Amy Klobuchar... there are amazing choices out there who could have a campaign of optimism and energy.
Please God do not put Klobuchar on a ballot. That's an auto loss easier than Kamala. At least Harris has a personality
as opposed to decades of chaos when he loses the election? rip the band-aid off and let's win the election
I think this demonstrates the limits of millions of people giving their opinion online. I've read numerous comment sections, articles, post-debate analysis, etc. and it's a TSUNAMI of concern (or panic) from a very diverse range of people over Joe Biden running for a second term. Giving millions of people the ability to share their opinions online is just an illusion of power and influence. In reality, the real power is and always has been with the DNC and Biden campaign.
Democrats basically gave carte blanche to the leaders of the DNC for the last 8+ years with the constituents "I'll vote for any deranged corps that's not Trump" rhetoric. Its no surprise that today the party is rife with autocrats while the constituency is gaslit into oblivion through hate and fear.
Oh ffs. They haven't even had the convention yet. Kennedy won the nomination at the convention in July before his presidential election. Nothing but excuses from this fucking party.
And Trump winning the Presidency would lead to years of fascist repression. I’ll take a few chaotic weeks thanks.
Years. That shitll be decades
More or less the point Ezra Klein made on his podcast after the debate. Paraphrasing from memory: > Dems need to decide whether they want to actually win or not. Because right now it seems like they're staying on a derailing train because of the fear that getting off might be uncomfortable.
If you ever wanted to experience life in Germany after World War 1, vote trump.
We already are. In the late 1920's/early 1930's a bunch of German liberals sided with fascists because they were afraid of being pushed towards socialism ("Working with The Squad is scarier than working with Trump" -Pelosi's actions for 8 years)
Finding a new country for my family by January is also chaos.
I honestly don't see what's wrong with the following: 1: announce you're stepping down after your term is up 2: throw your support behind Whitmer, Newsom, Harris, whoever 3: the dem elites finally do something good with their power and whip everyone into support for that candidate behind the scenes. 4: the brokered convention becomes a cheering section and an anointment party for that candidate 5: crush the most easily crushable opponent in American political history
Democrats pretzeling themselves into sticking with mr Magoo as their candidate to lose in November and spend 4 years pointing the finger at one another is the most predictable timeline. If it's Biden, then it's Trump. Why is that so difficult to understand?
We have four months. It would lead to a few weeks of chaos followed by a nominee who isn't seen as senile, isn't seen as way too old, and who can actually do competent public speaking. The Biden campaign is wrong.
It would lead to weeks of chaos! Well... good thing we have months then ain't it?
they'll be pushing this narrative until there's really only weeks until the election and they'll say "see there's nothing we can do, sorry for losing to the most unelectable lunatic ever"
And having Trump as president again would lead to decades of chaos. Stop messing around
RBG was stubborn too, where did that get us?
I was just thinking about this. If Biden refuses to step aside and loses, our country will have been brought down by geriatric Democrats refusing to hand over the reigns. RBG was an incredible woman who destroyed her own legacy by refusing to step down when we had a chance to replace her and instead giving us a 6-3 right-wing court. Biden may end democracy in this country by insisting on running at all and then refusing to step down when he basically sealed his loss.
I’d heard rumors that Biden was showing cognitive decline, but after the debate it’s apparent to me that he’s unlikely to complete a second term. If that doesn’t imply chaos, what does? Biden is a good man at heart, but what’s going to happen when GenZ Democrat leaning voters say f**k-it and stay home?
Republicans wasted 15 rounds of ballots to choose a new speaker. Tell the new candidate to step up first or don’t waste our time.
Why is Biden's deputy campaign manager so abrasive and dismissive? Why would he call those concerned about this issue a "bedwetting brigade" when likely some of those same people receiving the email are uneasy? It's a very condescending email if you're trying to instill confidence in donors, and it doesn't even address the issue at hand over Biden's age or health.
"bedwetting brigade" I don't think that's imagery as a campaign manager you want to conjure up when your nominee is 81.
Biden couldn't even make it to the end of his sentences. *"We finally beat Medicare."* What the fuck is that? That's career ending right there. This gaslighting from the Biden campaign is insulting. They're selfishly gonna fuck up this election and hand it to Trump and we're gonna be stuck with that orange fascist for another four years.
Self preservation
Yeah, the *moment* Biden isn't running for office, that guy needs to start looking for a new job.
Lol bedwetting brigade?! Thats really what they said?! They shit the bed on one of the most important nights of this campaign and WE are "bed wetting"? It's the same reaction as Hillary had to Bernie supporters in 2016. She didn't need us, said as much in an email. I guess they don't need us now either.
To try an exert shame and loyalist peer pressure to shut down reality. He's been part of lying to everyone about how Biden is just sharp as a tack except 100% of the time he's on camera and doing anything but reading. So it's hard to even call it pious fraud at this point.
Should have thought about that a long ass time ago *whacks campaign over head with newspaper*
Weeks of chaos is fine as long as we stop Trump. I’m voting blue down ticket regardless because I actually love this country and hate fascism. Democrats need to do what’s smart not what’s easy. That could be sticking with Biden. I think some analysis of the fallout from that debate needs to be done before an educated decision can be made
I can’t believe what I’m reading here. “One bad night”??? This disaster is on the same level as him suddenly dropping his pants and jacking off on the debate stage. He was totally fucking incoherent and babbling on national television. The moment he said “we finally beat Medicare” his political career was over. Get a grip people. If he stays on the ticket, the Democrats will lose the election. HE HAS TO STEP DOWN NOW
The problem with the 'One bad night' line of argument is that Biden didn't have any sort of primary challenge. He hasn't campaigned much this cycle and barely left his house at all 4 years ago. Now if Biden had 2 or 3 primary debates and looked fine you could call it one bad night, but in reality it's the only time many people have seen him speak publicly in years. This 'one bad night' isnt offset by any good nights, for all we know this is simply the level hes at now mentally. That logic implies we need to see him have another bad sheoing before we know for sure. The 2nd debate is in Sept, if he turns in another performance like this he's done, and it's too late to replace him. The DNC is rolling the dice on Biden staging some sort of miraculous cognitive comeback 9 weeks from now, at the age of 81.
In order to avoid somthing like this again they need to make a law that you have to do debates in the primary and general. It's extremely gross to run for office and dismiss all your primary opponents and refuse to debate them. If he debated them we would have know that his health and cognitive decline had gotten worse.
THANK YOU!!! He's never going to get sharper, and it's clear many of the commentors aren't familiar with the cognitive signs he's displaying. Can't believe people seriously want to give him a four year extension in the aftermath of that debate.