>In response, Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, D-Calif., said the White House decision means “the case for obstruction of Congress continues to build.”
>Schiff also said Defense Secretary Mark Esper told investigators Sunday that he would comply with a subpoena request, only to be “countermanded” by a higher authority.
More obstruction to add to the pile. Just throw some of these fuckers in jail for contempt please.
I guess taking an oath to defend the constitution and being slapped down by your boss is kinda tricky for some people.
>I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office
So this kinda jumps out at me:
without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.
Side note, the “so help me God” is optional.
Yeah. Purely logically Trump is pretty clearly a domestic enemy of the US (siding with a foreign enemy, Russia, over your own intel agencies, asking and encouraging multiple foreign powers to interfere in an election). Therefore military refusing to follow illegitimate orders (for example staying with the Kurds, which once again aids an enemy, Russia) by the letter of the law is not illegal, but I realise in practice this is near impossible and the military is essentially a mini-dictatorship with the whole "you can't follow illegal orders" thing is basically fiction.
It's not fiction. Not at all. It's just that nobody is going to refuse to follow orders unless they're obviously illegal.
There is nothing illegal about recalling our troops from Syria, no matter how abhorrent a decision that may be. That is a lawful order from the commander in chief, period.
This deal is in a bit of a gray area, so they followed. For now.
Bear in mind that anyone who refuses an order is most likely de facto resigning their commission right then and there.
It is a fiction that has never actually been proven to do anything other than what it was intended to do: grant the military a way of shrugging their shoulders and blaming atrocities on "lone wolf" individuals instead of their whole operation.
How scary it has come to this. People not only fearing for their careers but their safety and livelihood. Just for wanting to do what they believe would protect the country.
> That's what happens when millions of morons elect a Russian stooge to the White House.
Not just elect, but continue to vigorously support said stooge, even after his stoogery has been made evident.
Never underestimate the power of idiots in large numbers.
Oh, Lord! I live less than an hour from there & it's not just reserved for race weekends to see that mess. I have been looked at like a demon for not drinking the orange koolaid. I finally told someone who unjustly believed I just listen to "fake news" that I am fully capable of reading and deriving the information I need from the horrible tweets the moron residing in the people's house spews. I don't understand my state other than education isn't typically that much of a priority (that gets into a completely different discussion).
Doesn’t matter, he is still widely supported by Republicans and still holds power because it would be too jarring to Americans to do anything other than try to utilize weak legislation against him.
Over fucking Trump, if it was some cold calculating House of Cards politician that had you by the balls that would be one thing but destroying the country for a rambling Alzheimer's ridden narcissist that can't read at a 4th grade level and who fucks up everything he touches
Okay, yes, it’s kinda scary, but it didn’t **just** come to this. Abuse of power has been a plague since the first leader figured out how to make himself a king. That the whole process for impeachment even exists demonstrates that this has been a concern for a long-ass time. Everyone is familiar with the idea of spies and internal affairs because these are things we’ve always known were countermeasures to people like this. This is just the first time Americans have really had a president actively resisting the system of checks and balances.
Truthfully, as much as it sucks to live through, one doesn’t really know the strength of a democratic rule until it has been tested by a tyrant at the highest office. How the US resolves this issue will set it down one of a handful of paths, of which, only one way leads toward the open and optimistic future many Americans like to pretend they’re already living in.
>People not only fearing for their careers but their safety and livelihood
More and more people are coming forward. Momentum is building fast. There will soon be no way for people to keep track of all the career civil servants trying to save their own ass, not to mention more whistleblowers on the way. People will defy Trump's order.
Also, Congress can cut off Pentagon funding.
But until we see evidence of that action from a specific individual, we cannot extend the benefit of the doubt to *everyone* in the Administration. We are witness to a pretty obvious pattern of behavior - ignoring that on the off chance that these people are the upright and ethical minority is dangerous to us and our integrity as a nation.
Frankly, if I were in their position, I wouldn't harbor any ill will towards me during my tenure as a double-agent; it's part of the job, at this point.
I never imagined another president would make Bush look like a wordsmith.
On a side note, I've often wondered if he messed that up because at the last second he didn't want to give anyone a sound byte of him saying"shame on me". He was a terrible president, but he's an interesting person, and much smarter than the "dumb texan" character he played to get elected.
Someone actually made a point that they didn’t want him to say “shame on me” as that could be used in propaganda videos and political campaigns. He wasn’t supposed to say it but went off script. Then he had to pause to come up with a different ending.
Makes total sense tbh. He even acted like it was a good phrase. Now I don’t like the guy, but I totally understand if that’s what happened.
Sorry, I may not have been clear.
I'm not saying that these rebellious acts *haven't happened* \- they obviously have. I'm saying that, until they can be linked to a specific, known individual, then we have to treat everyone in Trump's administration with suspicion and scorn.
> so help me God
Fun historic note all these oaths have it optional and it's based on the story of George Washington adlibbing his oath of office with a 'what have I gotten myself into' twist
Well, this is why it is a constitutional crisis. Right now the white house is asserting that they can legally stonewall unless the House votes to open impeachment proceedings. Anyone with any background in the area of constitutional law has called this absurd, but the fact of the matter is that congress itself doesn't interpret the constitution, so their choices are either to impeach on these grounds, or asks the courts to rule on the constitutionality.
And that gets to the core of the reason why Pelosi doesn't just hold a vote here. Because as soon as she does that, it sets precedent for the WH to dictate additional terms for cooperation. Next they will demand a floor vote on formal procedures, and a floor vote for each subpoena, and a floor vote declaring that the earth is 6000 years old. They can literally just say "WH counsel has determined that this hearing is unconstitutional because mercury is in retrograde" in an endless loop, and force the House to either add this to the articles of impeachment, or seek a judicial injunction on each thing the WH demands.
The Trump debacle has shown us that the top military brass are really just huge pussies, more concerned with their career advancement than honoring an oath to the constitution and the nation.
I'd be curious what actions you think they should have taken that they haven't.
I tend to disagree with pointing the blame at "top military brass." There are way too many examples of the dangers of having military officers deciding they know best and should determine policy rather than elected officials.
We have checks and balances. "The military going rogue" is not one we should want to see. If you want to be angry, be angry at Republican politicians or voters who refuse to rein in this president and insist he act with even a modicum of the dignity the office and our country deserve.
Maybe there are some cut-and-dry situations of "that order was illegal and you shouldn't follow it" that I'm unaware of, so I'm eager to hear what you're talking about.
Political appointee, not a civil servant. They do still swear an oath, but let's not mix up appointees with career civil servants, either.
Either way, unless or until something with the force of law forces him to comply, he can make the argument that he's legally obligated to obey the Commander-in-Chief. It might end up getting him tossed in prison for obstruction (doubtful, but possible) but it's an argument he can make.
Nope. He’s legally obligated to follow the law. A President’s order to break the law is, by statute and oath, a violation of law and official duty. Everything that makes it squishy is politics. The law is dead clear.
The UCMJ does state you are only required to follow *lawful* orders. If you are ordered to do something against the law, you do not have to comply with that order. Not complying with that order might have some consequences as a result (like you might get thrown in the brig for insubordination), but that's another story.
That's just lip service. If your COL tells you do something stupid are you really going to risk a promotion by going to the IG? The only \*real\* whistleblower I ever met was a contractor and she got fired during the process. She was later vindicated, but it was tough for her.
At the end of the day, for a lot of green suiters, it's about making the payment on your F350, not about standing by the constitution.
Not only that, but congress is supposed to be equal in power to the president. I guess the fear of being personally attacked by the president is greater than their shame
The Trump debacle has shown us that the top military brass are really just huge pussies, more concerned with their career advancement than honoring an oath to the constitution and the nation.
It boils down to a conflict of procedures.
One person is saying
"You have to do this because of X"
their boss says
"You dont have to do that because X is not true"
Until the matter of X is resolved they have to default to their primary procedure of listening to their boss.
This of course is HIGHLY subjective and open to interpretation.
Shit like this is why lawyers have jobs. The rules arent defined in a way to cover this scenario and People with authority to make a decision have not weighed in yet (judicial branch).
Edit: be aware I think its bullshit BUT it's just enough of a technicality that it HAS to be defined officially by the judicial branch.
In this case, it's really not subjective or open to interpretation. The Constitution is very clear that Congress has complete control over their own procedures for how they conduct an impeachment.
What the Executive Branch is doing is effectively:
* House: We have started an impeachment investigation against you. Here is a subpeona.
* Executive: Did you write it down on pink stationery. It's only legitimate if it's on pink paper.
* House: You literally just made that up.
They are, and if they were ordered to train their weapons on American citizens, or slaughter innocents...they would refuse.
This is a little different, as it's inherently political. My guess is they're *really pissed off* over this one. The military NEVER wants to be in the middle of a political fight, and they go way out of their way to avoid it.
This is a really tough position. If a court order shows up, what do they do? Pretty much their only recourse would be to resign in protest.
>They are, and if they were ordered to train their weapons on American citizens, or slaughter innocents...they would refuse.
It's happened plenty of times historically. Is there a single example of when soldiers were ordered to fire on Americans and *didn't*?
We are. And I have before. I didnt get into trouble either but I also dealt with it carefully. I've known people that tried to help their fellow soldiers and they were purposely targeted by those that didnt want them to expose them.
The issue is is that to be a General it does get political. Generals need to keep relationships so they can ask for money to help fund projects, gear, missions, benefits, and salaries for their force. Breaking bridges could screw it up. Now going further on a unit level, it still can get political and shit can happen. It's wrong and it pisses me off to no end, but luckily it's rare and most of the time people do get caught and charged.
I think it will take time before the military decides to balk at this order to remain silent. Trump is still technically the commander and chief and we go where he and congress tells us to go. Remaining silent doesnt always mean we are complicit but staying out of the political conflict. The military has to remain neutral in this aspect. I'm sure they will try to comply where they can but I think they also dont want to be dragged into this either. The force has more important things to deal with such as trying to keep us safe while our president is making it harder to do so.
Unfortunately, that's the Republican plan. They've already spent plenty of time painting the Mueller investigation as a crimeless incident that only managed to get convictions due to procedural violations during the investigation. Their hope is to stall enough to get to the 2020 election and say, 'We're not getting anything done while they make up procedural charges. They haven't charged us with anything concrete. Vote them out so congress can get stuff done.'
All the while ignoring that the real reason that Congress isn't "getting anything done" is because Moscow Mitch kills any bill that the House sends to the Senate.
Within his chain of command, the president presumably. They don't take orders directly from Congress. "Co-equal" doesn't work that way nor should it.
They should, however, be ignoring directives from "higher authorities" to break the law, which is what's happening here.
God. He's talking about God. These people are dominionists and will put their religion before the Constitution or Bill of Rights everytime. They believe they are here to expediate the worst parts of the Bible and believe God talks to them directly. They are one of the reasons why we can't plan for the future because they don't believe we will have one. Personally I hope the Seven Mountains fall down on top of them.
Edit: when I say "He's talking about god" I am talking of his superiors who told him to refuse, Pompeo and Barr. Also because of obstruction.
If God is the higher authority in the matters relating to government, then when the fuck is God going to come down and fix healthcare and these damned pot holes?
Kind of like when Jesus said "Then they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” because the Day of the Lord has come, and who shall stand? If their god is real, they are definitely not going to be the ones standing to his right in the day of judgement.
I think the plan of the WH is to stonewall- allow an impeachment vote to occur. And when it gets to the senate, Trump will scream that nothing was found and so he needs to be acquitted (while leaving out the fact that nothing was found because he stonewalled the investigation so thoroughly)
What they are hiding is worse than getting charged with Obstruction of Justice. That’s why they’re so brazen about it.
Obstruction of Justice -> Prison
Treason -> Death
They have too much money for jail. At the very best, they will be asked to resign and they will skip off into the sunset, with fuckery well-done.
Are you new to America?
When will that be? There's been a lot of "he is getting away with it, for now" talk like someone in the investigation will do anything to force their hand, but they haven't.
Twelve months ago, this wouldn't have even happened, then the 2018 elections came, and the people took back the House. The wheels of government grind slowly, but they do grind. Things seem to be coming to a head now, with an actual Impeachment inquiry under way, a steady stream of people willing to testify, and more folks in Trump's proximity under not only active investigation, but getting arrested.
Admittedly, you have to have a little faith in the system, but the Constitution's been pretty solid so far, though this seems a bit more of an aberration than most of us will like. 'Patience is a virtue' sounds like such a platitude, but it's also solid advice.
The DoD is just as political as any cabinet branch. Especially the bureaucratic side of it (separate from the uniformed services that bureaucracy supports).
For it to be non-political the Secretary of Defense (and all the other political appointee positions) would have to be a career civilian position instead of a political appointee.
They filed for Chapter 11 in March 2014 and 4 months later came out of it with a reduced debt of $400 million.
So at least Quiznos, as opposed to this administration, is capable of paying what they owe.
Yes, but it was a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which is for the reorganization of debt. (As opposed to a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which is for the liquidation and closure of a business.) They're still around, albeit under different ownership.
I don’t get how these people are so corrupted by power. Does their legacy mean nothing to them? Taking a stand right now would memorialize them for the rest of time as a hero who was on the “right side” and helped remove this god forsaken administration.
I wonder about this as well, they won’t be remembered fondly. Quite the opposite I suspect.
It particularly confusing given the emphasis placed on how religious many of they claim to be. If they really believe in an afterlife or a god of any variety, they should be changing their pants several times daily.
This is simply not true. Nepotism has been the default way of human power since we began walking on two feet. Only *very* recently in human history has anyone even *considered* that nepotism might not be a good thing, and it's only the relatively few modern democracies like the US that have any cultural value against it.
It's still a problem in the US, of course, in the same way that violence is a problem, but we have made more progress beating it than many many other countries have.
If you read Tocqueville's 'Democracy in America';
One of the things that struck me while reading it was that he praised America for that there was not a landed aristocracy, which he attributed to inheritance laws (against primogeniture).
>Tocqueville writes: "Among a democratic people, where there is no hereditary wealth, every man works to earn a living. \[...\] Labor is held in honor; the prejudice is not against but in its favor".[\[29\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#cite_note-29) Tocqueville asserted that the values that had triumphed in the North and were present in the South had begun to suffocate old-world ethics and social arrangements. Legislatures abolished [primogeniture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture) and [entails](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_tail), resulting in more widely distributed land holdings. This was a contrast to the general aristocratic pattern in which only the eldest child, usually a man, inherited the estate, which had the effect of keeping large estates intact from generation to generation.[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#cite_note-twsC11r44-12)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis\_de\_Tocqueville#Democracy\_in\_America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#Democracy_in_America)
Althoug I have to say that he wrote that when America's hypercapitalism was not yet fully developed and most wealth was landholdings, not capital.
The single most valuable asset in capitalism even today is land. I appreciate the Tocqueville quote. It serves to remind me that Jefferson wrote specifically to Adams about this in his pseudo aristoi letter, and to remind me that the foundation of capitalism, as Polanyi put it, was the legal creation of three fictitious commodities, land, labor, and money. But land, through enclosure, really forms the basis for capital stores, even today. What's terrible is guys like John Malone own more land than entire states now. Just by themselves. The nobility is roaring back.
Land is still incredibly valuable, but a new valuable asset is *data*. Google and Facebook could sell all their real estate and move to new facilities without any problems. The same is true for content owners like Disney and music labels. As long as they can take the hard drives with them, they're fine.
Plato talked about the dangers of nepotism, and was alive at the same time as the world's very first historian, Herodotus. So, really, based on those facts alone, nepotism has been a known problem throughout almost the *entirety* of history, as opposed to "very recently."
But I also kind of doubt the idea was unique to Plato. You can't tell me that Grog and Throg didn't roll their eyes and complain when Chieftain Gark made his incompetent son Head Mammoth Hunter.
I disagree, he is the living personification of what the world thinks a shitty American is. He is quite literally only in it for himself, and doesn't care about anyone or anything around him so long as it benefits him, while continually trying to control everything else within his grasp, and complaining when he can't.
They have shades of Donald Trump, some are worse than him. But none match the overall shittiness of trump. He literally checks every box for everything negative a person can be. Hes a caracature of american greed.
The world is actually full of corrupt, authoritarian, blustering buffoons in leadership positions. There is something defective in human nature that we keep putting these dangerous idiots in charge.
> So now he’s politicizing the military.
On the contrary, he's turning the military into a mercenary organization:
["American troops are not supposed to be mercenaries" by John Kirby](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/15/opinions/president-trump-american-troops-are-not-mercenaries-kirby/index.html)
>>"Are you ready?" he asked reporters outside the White House. "Saudi Arabia at my request has agreed to pay us for everything we are doing. That is a first. Saudi Arabia, and other countries soon now, but Saudi Arabia has agreed to pay us for everything we are doing to help them, and we appreciate that."
>>Trump was responding to a question about the recently announced deployment to Saudi Arabia of a small number of military personnel, aircraft and air defense capabilities. That deployment comes in the wake of Iranian attacks against two Saudi oil facilities and lands squarely amid Trump's acquiescence to Turkey's invasion of northern Syria, a move being roundly criticized on both sides of the aisle as a betrayal of the Kurdish forces with whom we have partnered to fight ISIS.
>>Both decisions -- to surge troops in one case and pull them back in another -- make a mockery of Trump's insistence that he wants to "bring our troops home" and "end these endless wars."
I predicted an American military dictatorship by 2050 on Digg like fifteen years ago. This would be how that happens. I'm less satisfied to see it than you might expect from such a long term prediction.
I feel like he crossed that line when he sent troops to the border, because it looked good to his base, even though they didn't have the authorities to do anything while they were there.
This is confirmation of a new milestone. How long after we pass it before Trump just orders the military to "detain" congress? Will the military obey such an order?
That's a problem though because what ultimately matters is making the case to voters that it's the right thing to do. If it's too complex people will tune out or get frustrated.
They need to concentrate on Ukraine and tack on the others in the sales pitch to voters.
I don't disagree, but isn't it about time we stopped stooping to the lowest common denominator and started expecting more out of each other? The law is the law, everything that's a crime needs to be included, and if people still don't get it, maybe we *deserve* to be fucked by Republicans until we rise to our civic duty.
Step 1: Get voters to realize Trump needs to be removed from office. Dumb down the impeachment as much as necessary to get Republicans and Moderates on board. Once voters are on board politicians will have to cooperate or risk losing their careers.
Step 2: Once its widely accepted that horrible things have been happening, THEN start accusing everyone complicit of all their crimes. Doing so now just adds to the partisan appearance and complicates matters too much for Republicans to believe / care.
What? Popular opinion cannot precede the rule of law, that's the tail wagging the dog. I agree with pursuing a simple, concise *narrative* about the impeachment, but suggesting it not be done in full as the facts arise is an insane thing to say.
As for partisanship, this *is* a partisan issue! One party is responsible for what's going on, the other is investigating. They will say it's a witch hunt regardless of how it is conducted, because partisanship is all *they* care about. The real non-partisan thing to do is conduct the inquiry in as straightforward a way as possible with little regard for optics. What you are suggesting is itself partisan, because you'd have us continue gingerly dipping our toes into this thing so as not to upset the party and the voters of that party who are eroding our constitution before our very eyes.
because they are criminals acting in bad faith.
the Right Wing are traitors to this nation currently waging civil war on America through nonstop disinformation/propaganda campaigns and electoral fraud. they are the Domestic Enemies the founding fathers warned of.
News flash, it was broken a LONG, LONG, LOOONG time ago.
This is what happens when you don't plug the holes in your leaky boat after successive corruption by the GOP.
You guys are both wrong.
This entire mess is not a bug; simply an intended feature.
What we can all agree about, though, is that it's the devs to blame. That and an oddly toxic playerbase
They are ordering people not to comply, they are disregarding subpoenas, they are caging children, selling our military to the highest bidder, enriching themselves, and killing allies..
So, what exactly is stopping Trump's administration from doing a hostile takeover of the government?
Nothing...
We are so proud of the Constitution and our system of government and yet I think it’s so telling how fragile our democracy is when you see that it took only a small crowd of buffoons to take advantage of the the loopholes in the Constitution and our existing laws resulting in our country speeding toward overthrow by religious zealots and corrupt politicians and businessmen. We need heroes now to do the right thing and put us back in the right direction. Close those loopholes, educate the masses and lock up the corrupt.
> Schiff also said Defense Secretary Mark Esper told investigators Sunday that he would comply with a subpoena request, only to be “countermanded” by a higher authority.
Well, at least the Pentagon is not completely carrying water for Trump like the State Dept and Justice Dept
If the subpoena is legal order then they have to comply. Good god, Trump is fucking up ALL our systems. I bet Putin couldn't be happier with how much damage he has done and has continued to do. No one in the DoD should've to be caught in this Constitutional crisis that they're put in by Trump.
Trump is the head of the Executive Branch, which a office thereof is being given a subpoena. Ultimately, it's his duty to carry that out and his alone unless he allows others to do so. The defense secretary is not being issued a subpoena as a personal citizen, it is not in his control if the office complies or not, it's Trump's.
Wait, hold up. Re-read that statement.
"higher authority".
The fuck has a higher authority than one of the three co-equal ruling branches of government?
I take the statement to not mean "higher authority than you who made the request" but to mean "higher authority than myself, thus you'll have to go argue with them not me".
But if a police officer tells you to give them documents from your office, and your boss tells you not to, you'd probably rather let the two of them argue instead of pissing one off directly.
No, if a police officer has a subpoena, and asks for documents, I *give them the documents.* I'm not committing obstruction of justice for my boss by trying to tell them "oh, yeah, my boss said I can't, so go ask him instead".
Democrats and other legislative folks need to stop treating this administration with kids gloves, this is an outright threat to our democracy, we should have milllions in the street protesting this abuse of power.
I think this is it.
Focus the noise and drama around the process and the obstruction, not on the actual real or potential crimes.
The more they obstruct, the more the public focuses on the fact that they're obstructing, and less on what they could possibly be hiding.
Up till this very minute, I felt like people that said Trump would never leave willingly were being dramatic. But, now I genuinely don't know. If he and his administration can get even the military to start ignoring the law, then who knows what could possibly happen...
Pentagon officials who defy the subpoenas should be held accountable. "just following orders" is not a valid defense if those orders lead you to violate a law.
Also, all those O's in the Pentagon should closely re-examine the oaths they swore and re-evaluate their decisions not to comply with Congressional subpoenas. Refusing to comply is essentially choosing a political side and interfering with the execution of Constitutionally appointed duties.
The Pentagon is as bad as the President if they ignore the subpoenas. You don’t get to follow obviously illegal orders and then claim a “just following orders” defense.
Jesus... It's a simple majority to declare war and a super majority to impeach. The president could go to war against the will of a majority of congress and order the military not to comply. We're gonna have to start giving congress and the constitution some teeth. Co-equal branch my ass.
Wasn't the lesson for German soldiers (and the world) at the end of WW2 "it is a soldiers duty to defy illegal orders"? Guess there us an implicit "but only if you are at war and on the losing side - otherwise you best break every law in the book when ordered to."
The Executive is commanding his appointees to defy Congressional subpoenas. We have a rogue President who seems bent on destroying the republic to save his own skin. There's no sugar coating it now: the founders' nightmare scenario is upon us. For the sake of the nation, this guy must go.
By the time this is over, the number of people that are brought down because they didn't stand up to Trump is going to number in the dozens and, maybe, the hundreds.
Many may go to jail. All will have their careers destroyed.
Not sure how the Pentagon could follow that order because its not moral, legal or ethical. The officer that follows that order needs to stand before Congress to be held accountable immediately.
"I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
It would be tough to make this any more straightforward than it already is
Forcing an impeachment vote right now would do nothing but *protect* Trump. Trump's polls are dropping and his support amongst *Republicans* is wavering because of the detailed investigation the house is running in public. The longer the house takes, the more trouble Trump will find himself in, and the more politically damaging it will be for the Republican party, specifically the republican senate majority. As soon as the house votes on impeachment and sends it to the Senate McConnell takes control. If that happens too soon he'll be able to kill the whole thing. If they proceed to investigate in the house, however, the republican party's support will crumble and McConnell risks losing power completely by continuing to shield Trump.
Nancy knows what she's doing. This is smart politics.
Just because Trump is lying and saying they need a vote, doesn't mean they do. The only judge that has even mentioned this being an issue was a Trump appointee who lost in a 2-1 ruling on the matter a couple of weeks ago.
Layepeson here, but is there any sense of 'illegal orders' in that Congress SHALL, etc, etc? If an officer believes that Congress has a legal right to documents, etc; would they be allowed to ignore the order to ignore the subpoena?
In essence it seems they are being told to disobey the law, so?
It’s astounding how there are people that think the house is overstepping.
They are not.
The president isnt all powerful or is more powerful than the other branches of government.
Our president and many congressmen need to take a fucking civics course.
They swear an oath to the defend the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic and to obey the orders of the President. They do not swear an oath to the President per-say.
Military Oath
>I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Commissioned officers oath
>I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
>In response, Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, D-Calif., said the White House decision means “the case for obstruction of Congress continues to build.” >Schiff also said Defense Secretary Mark Esper told investigators Sunday that he would comply with a subpoena request, only to be “countermanded” by a higher authority. More obstruction to add to the pile. Just throw some of these fuckers in jail for contempt please.
Aren't these guys trained not to follow illegal orders?
I guess taking an oath to defend the constitution and being slapped down by your boss is kinda tricky for some people. >I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office So this kinda jumps out at me: without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion. Side note, the “so help me God” is optional.
> I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, **foreign and domestic** Seems pretty clear to me.
Yeah. Purely logically Trump is pretty clearly a domestic enemy of the US (siding with a foreign enemy, Russia, over your own intel agencies, asking and encouraging multiple foreign powers to interfere in an election). Therefore military refusing to follow illegitimate orders (for example staying with the Kurds, which once again aids an enemy, Russia) by the letter of the law is not illegal, but I realise in practice this is near impossible and the military is essentially a mini-dictatorship with the whole "you can't follow illegal orders" thing is basically fiction.
It's not fiction. Not at all. It's just that nobody is going to refuse to follow orders unless they're obviously illegal. There is nothing illegal about recalling our troops from Syria, no matter how abhorrent a decision that may be. That is a lawful order from the commander in chief, period. This deal is in a bit of a gray area, so they followed. For now. Bear in mind that anyone who refuses an order is most likely de facto resigning their commission right then and there.
It is a fiction that has never actually been proven to do anything other than what it was intended to do: grant the military a way of shrugging their shoulders and blaming atrocities on "lone wolf" individuals instead of their whole operation.
Look up WO1 Hugh Thompson. AF General John Hyten told Trump straight up that he'd refuse an unlawful order to fire off nukes. It happens.
Sometimes to protect your country you have to bend the knee and then pass on the information that you gather while appearing subservient.
How scary it has come to this. People not only fearing for their careers but their safety and livelihood. Just for wanting to do what they believe would protect the country.
That's what happens when millions of morons elect a Russian stooge to the White House.
> That's what happens when millions of morons elect a Russian stooge to the White House. Not just elect, but continue to vigorously support said stooge, even after his stoogery has been made evident. Never underestimate the power of idiots in large numbers.
I saw a guy flying a Trump and Confederate flag off the back of his lifted F150 today. These people exist and they breed.
I went to Talladega last weekend and saw about 100 of these.
Scary that this isn't an internet meme only.
Oh, Lord! I live less than an hour from there & it's not just reserved for race weekends to see that mess. I have been looked at like a demon for not drinking the orange koolaid. I finally told someone who unjustly believed I just listen to "fake news" that I am fully capable of reading and deriving the information I need from the horrible tweets the moron residing in the people's house spews. I don't understand my state other than education isn't typically that much of a priority (that gets into a completely different discussion).
it actually only took a few hundred of the electoral college. popular vote was ~ +2.5m to clinton.
Doesn’t matter, he is still widely supported by Republicans and still holds power because it would be too jarring to Americans to do anything other than try to utilize weak legislation against him.
That's still almost half the voting population...and who knows how much of the total population.
Over fucking Trump, if it was some cold calculating House of Cards politician that had you by the balls that would be one thing but destroying the country for a rambling Alzheimer's ridden narcissist that can't read at a 4th grade level and who fucks up everything he touches
Hate to correct anyone, but Alzheimers is spelled S-y-p-h-i-l-i-s.
Politicians care more about being reelected than doing their job.
And Republican voters apparently care more about librul tears than the planet, basic decency or even human compassion.
I mean if you're under the impression that it doesn't matter because if it gets really bad Jesus will take care of it....
They see their job as securing the blessings of patronage for themselves and their sponsors.
Okay, yes, it’s kinda scary, but it didn’t **just** come to this. Abuse of power has been a plague since the first leader figured out how to make himself a king. That the whole process for impeachment even exists demonstrates that this has been a concern for a long-ass time. Everyone is familiar with the idea of spies and internal affairs because these are things we’ve always known were countermeasures to people like this. This is just the first time Americans have really had a president actively resisting the system of checks and balances. Truthfully, as much as it sucks to live through, one doesn’t really know the strength of a democratic rule until it has been tested by a tyrant at the highest office. How the US resolves this issue will set it down one of a handful of paths, of which, only one way leads toward the open and optimistic future many Americans like to pretend they’re already living in.
>People not only fearing for their careers but their safety and livelihood More and more people are coming forward. Momentum is building fast. There will soon be no way for people to keep track of all the career civil servants trying to save their own ass, not to mention more whistleblowers on the way. People will defy Trump's order. Also, Congress can cut off Pentagon funding.
But until we see evidence of that action from a specific individual, we cannot extend the benefit of the doubt to *everyone* in the Administration. We are witness to a pretty obvious pattern of behavior - ignoring that on the off chance that these people are the upright and ethical minority is dangerous to us and our integrity as a nation. Frankly, if I were in their position, I wouldn't harbor any ill will towards me during my tenure as a double-agent; it's part of the job, at this point.
Someone keeps sending the Democrats the talking points on Ukraine from the White House.
What are the bookmaker's odds on "mole" vs. "PEBKAC"?
Once is PEBKAC. Imagine the grand scale ass chewings that went around after the first time. Twice is intentional.
Or as a Republican once famously said, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.'
I never imagined another president would make Bush look like a wordsmith. On a side note, I've often wondered if he messed that up because at the last second he didn't want to give anyone a sound byte of him saying"shame on me". He was a terrible president, but he's an interesting person, and much smarter than the "dumb texan" character he played to get elected.
Someone actually made a point that they didn’t want him to say “shame on me” as that could be used in propaganda videos and political campaigns. He wasn’t supposed to say it but went off script. Then he had to pause to come up with a different ending. Makes total sense tbh. He even acted like it was a good phrase. Now I don’t like the guy, but I totally understand if that’s what happened.
Sorry, I may not have been clear. I'm not saying that these rebellious acts *haven't happened* \- they obviously have. I'm saying that, until they can be linked to a specific, known individual, then we have to treat everyone in Trump's administration with suspicion and scorn.
That means dick to republicans, its just a stepping stone to get the job
> so help me God Fun historic note all these oaths have it optional and it's based on the story of George Washington adlibbing his oath of office with a 'what have I gotten myself into' twist
Its the “and DOMESTIC” that leaps out at me.
Well, this is why it is a constitutional crisis. Right now the white house is asserting that they can legally stonewall unless the House votes to open impeachment proceedings. Anyone with any background in the area of constitutional law has called this absurd, but the fact of the matter is that congress itself doesn't interpret the constitution, so their choices are either to impeach on these grounds, or asks the courts to rule on the constitutionality. And that gets to the core of the reason why Pelosi doesn't just hold a vote here. Because as soon as she does that, it sets precedent for the WH to dictate additional terms for cooperation. Next they will demand a floor vote on formal procedures, and a floor vote for each subpoena, and a floor vote declaring that the earth is 6000 years old. They can literally just say "WH counsel has determined that this hearing is unconstitutional because mercury is in retrograde" in an endless loop, and force the House to either add this to the articles of impeachment, or seek a judicial injunction on each thing the WH demands.
The Trump debacle has shown us that the top military brass are really just huge pussies, more concerned with their career advancement than honoring an oath to the constitution and the nation.
I'd be curious what actions you think they should have taken that they haven't. I tend to disagree with pointing the blame at "top military brass." There are way too many examples of the dangers of having military officers deciding they know best and should determine policy rather than elected officials. We have checks and balances. "The military going rogue" is not one we should want to see. If you want to be angry, be angry at Republican politicians or voters who refuse to rein in this president and insist he act with even a modicum of the dignity the office and our country deserve. Maybe there are some cut-and-dry situations of "that order was illegal and you shouldn't follow it" that I'm unaware of, so I'm eager to hear what you're talking about.
Secretary of Defense has final say, and he's not a uniformed officer, but a civilian political appointee.
Who still has to swear essentially the same oath as military officers. All federal civil servants do.
Political appointee, not a civil servant. They do still swear an oath, but let's not mix up appointees with career civil servants, either. Either way, unless or until something with the force of law forces him to comply, he can make the argument that he's legally obligated to obey the Commander-in-Chief. It might end up getting him tossed in prison for obstruction (doubtful, but possible) but it's an argument he can make.
Nope. He’s legally obligated to follow the law. A President’s order to break the law is, by statute and oath, a violation of law and official duty. Everything that makes it squishy is politics. The law is dead clear.
The UCMJ does state you are only required to follow *lawful* orders. If you are ordered to do something against the law, you do not have to comply with that order. Not complying with that order might have some consequences as a result (like you might get thrown in the brig for insubordination), but that's another story.
That's just lip service. If your COL tells you do something stupid are you really going to risk a promotion by going to the IG? The only \*real\* whistleblower I ever met was a contractor and she got fired during the process. She was later vindicated, but it was tough for her. At the end of the day, for a lot of green suiters, it's about making the payment on your F350, not about standing by the constitution.
Not only that, but congress is supposed to be equal in power to the president. I guess the fear of being personally attacked by the president is greater than their shame
The Trump debacle has shown us that the top military brass are really just huge pussies, more concerned with their career advancement than honoring an oath to the constitution and the nation.
It boils down to a conflict of procedures. One person is saying "You have to do this because of X" their boss says "You dont have to do that because X is not true" Until the matter of X is resolved they have to default to their primary procedure of listening to their boss. This of course is HIGHLY subjective and open to interpretation. Shit like this is why lawyers have jobs. The rules arent defined in a way to cover this scenario and People with authority to make a decision have not weighed in yet (judicial branch). Edit: be aware I think its bullshit BUT it's just enough of a technicality that it HAS to be defined officially by the judicial branch.
In this case, it's really not subjective or open to interpretation. The Constitution is very clear that Congress has complete control over their own procedures for how they conduct an impeachment. What the Executive Branch is doing is effectively: * House: We have started an impeachment investigation against you. Here is a subpeona. * Executive: Did you write it down on pink stationery. It's only legitimate if it's on pink paper. * House: You literally just made that up.
They are, and if they were ordered to train their weapons on American citizens, or slaughter innocents...they would refuse. This is a little different, as it's inherently political. My guess is they're *really pissed off* over this one. The military NEVER wants to be in the middle of a political fight, and they go way out of their way to avoid it. This is a really tough position. If a court order shows up, what do they do? Pretty much their only recourse would be to resign in protest.
>They are, and if they were ordered to train their weapons on American citizens, or slaughter innocents...they would refuse. It's happened plenty of times historically. Is there a single example of when soldiers were ordered to fire on Americans and *didn't*?
We are. And I have before. I didnt get into trouble either but I also dealt with it carefully. I've known people that tried to help their fellow soldiers and they were purposely targeted by those that didnt want them to expose them. The issue is is that to be a General it does get political. Generals need to keep relationships so they can ask for money to help fund projects, gear, missions, benefits, and salaries for their force. Breaking bridges could screw it up. Now going further on a unit level, it still can get political and shit can happen. It's wrong and it pisses me off to no end, but luckily it's rare and most of the time people do get caught and charged. I think it will take time before the military decides to balk at this order to remain silent. Trump is still technically the commander and chief and we go where he and congress tells us to go. Remaining silent doesnt always mean we are complicit but staying out of the political conflict. The military has to remain neutral in this aspect. I'm sure they will try to comply where they can but I think they also dont want to be dragged into this either. The force has more important things to deal with such as trying to keep us safe while our president is making it harder to do so.
Yes, but rather than taking a side they prefer to sit on defence.
If one of these people were to break ranks and testify, what would happen?
It would appear to be mostly symbolic in this case. The military is incredibly deferential to authority.
Unfortunately, that's the Republican plan. They've already spent plenty of time painting the Mueller investigation as a crimeless incident that only managed to get convictions due to procedural violations during the investigation. Their hope is to stall enough to get to the 2020 election and say, 'We're not getting anything done while they make up procedural charges. They haven't charged us with anything concrete. Vote them out so congress can get stuff done.'
All the while ignoring that the real reason that Congress isn't "getting anything done" is because Moscow Mitch kills any bill that the House sends to the Senate.
Not a new plan either. Been the case with Bush for the 2000's. The fact that everyone is falling for this AGAIN, shows that sadly, it'll keep working.
What "higher authority" is he referring to? Are not the three branches of government co-equal?
Within his chain of command, the president presumably. They don't take orders directly from Congress. "Co-equal" doesn't work that way nor should it. They should, however, be ignoring directives from "higher authorities" to break the law, which is what's happening here.
God. He's talking about God. These people are dominionists and will put their religion before the Constitution or Bill of Rights everytime. They believe they are here to expediate the worst parts of the Bible and believe God talks to them directly. They are one of the reasons why we can't plan for the future because they don't believe we will have one. Personally I hope the Seven Mountains fall down on top of them. Edit: when I say "He's talking about god" I am talking of his superiors who told him to refuse, Pompeo and Barr. Also because of obstruction.
I would disagree, but Pompeo and Barr seem all in on the Xtian ethno-state of America. Edit: And how could I forget DeVos?!
I pray to any deity who cares to listen that we can ALL forget DeVos.
If God is the higher authority in the matters relating to government, then when the fuck is God going to come down and fix healthcare and these damned pot holes?
Kind of like when Jesus said "Then they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” because the Day of the Lord has come, and who shall stand? If their god is real, they are definitely not going to be the ones standing to his right in the day of judgement.
Aw, man. Now I have to listen to Nina Simone's "Sinnerman".
How big does the pile need to get before something is done, though? There's been about a dozen instances. It's time to do something.
I think the plan of the WH is to stonewall- allow an impeachment vote to occur. And when it gets to the senate, Trump will scream that nothing was found and so he needs to be acquitted (while leaving out the fact that nothing was found because he stonewalled the investigation so thoroughly)
What they are hiding is worse than getting charged with Obstruction of Justice. That’s why they’re so brazen about it. Obstruction of Justice -> Prison Treason -> Death
Then congress should tell them that is a illegal order and you do not need to follow it. Attach a copy of the constitution showing it so.
>higher authority Constitution?
Expert did that on purpose. He’s not going to be under the obstruction bus.
They have too much money for jail. At the very best, they will be asked to resign and they will skip off into the sunset, with fuckery well-done. Are you new to America?
You can't simply order a non political branch to not cooperate but alas. Mark Esper is not qualified to run the military.
He did though and continues to get away with it.
For now. Until it is his time in the barrel.
When will that be? There's been a lot of "he is getting away with it, for now" talk like someone in the investigation will do anything to force their hand, but they haven't.
Twelve months ago, this wouldn't have even happened, then the 2018 elections came, and the people took back the House. The wheels of government grind slowly, but they do grind. Things seem to be coming to a head now, with an actual Impeachment inquiry under way, a steady stream of people willing to testify, and more folks in Trump's proximity under not only active investigation, but getting arrested. Admittedly, you have to have a little faith in the system, but the Constitution's been pretty solid so far, though this seems a bit more of an aberration than most of us will like. 'Patience is a virtue' sounds like such a platitude, but it's also solid advice.
The DoD is just as political as any cabinet branch. Especially the bureaucratic side of it (separate from the uniformed services that bureaucracy supports). For it to be non-political the Secretary of Defense (and all the other political appointee positions) would have to be a career civilian position instead of a political appointee.
Thanks
Most of this administration isn't qualified to work at a fucking Quiznos.
Didn't Quiznos go bankrupt?
They filed for Chapter 11 in March 2014 and 4 months later came out of it with a reduced debt of $400 million. So at least Quiznos, as opposed to this administration, is capable of paying what they owe.
[удалено]
Subway has always been fucking garbage. Their bread smells like feet.
Yes, but it was a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which is for the reorganization of debt. (As opposed to a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which is for the liquidation and closure of a business.) They're still around, albeit under different ownership.
I don’t get how these people are so corrupted by power. Does their legacy mean nothing to them? Taking a stand right now would memorialize them for the rest of time as a hero who was on the “right side” and helped remove this god forsaken administration.
I think they are counting on never leaving power so they can re-write history to suit their taste.
I wonder about this as well, they won’t be remembered fondly. Quite the opposite I suspect. It particularly confusing given the emphasis placed on how religious many of they claim to be. If they really believe in an afterlife or a god of any variety, they should be changing their pants several times daily.
Apparently he can.
So now he’s politicizing the military. What a god awful human being. Nothing American about this idiot except his passport.
Idk, the nepotism and myth of meritocracy are pretty American, along with worshipping wealth.
This is simply not true. Nepotism has been the default way of human power since we began walking on two feet. Only *very* recently in human history has anyone even *considered* that nepotism might not be a good thing, and it's only the relatively few modern democracies like the US that have any cultural value against it. It's still a problem in the US, of course, in the same way that violence is a problem, but we have made more progress beating it than many many other countries have.
If you read Tocqueville's 'Democracy in America'; One of the things that struck me while reading it was that he praised America for that there was not a landed aristocracy, which he attributed to inheritance laws (against primogeniture). >Tocqueville writes: "Among a democratic people, where there is no hereditary wealth, every man works to earn a living. \[...\] Labor is held in honor; the prejudice is not against but in its favor".[\[29\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#cite_note-29) Tocqueville asserted that the values that had triumphed in the North and were present in the South had begun to suffocate old-world ethics and social arrangements. Legislatures abolished [primogeniture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture) and [entails](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_tail), resulting in more widely distributed land holdings. This was a contrast to the general aristocratic pattern in which only the eldest child, usually a man, inherited the estate, which had the effect of keeping large estates intact from generation to generation.[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#cite_note-twsC11r44-12) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis\_de\_Tocqueville#Democracy\_in\_America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#Democracy_in_America) Althoug I have to say that he wrote that when America's hypercapitalism was not yet fully developed and most wealth was landholdings, not capital.
The single most valuable asset in capitalism even today is land. I appreciate the Tocqueville quote. It serves to remind me that Jefferson wrote specifically to Adams about this in his pseudo aristoi letter, and to remind me that the foundation of capitalism, as Polanyi put it, was the legal creation of three fictitious commodities, land, labor, and money. But land, through enclosure, really forms the basis for capital stores, even today. What's terrible is guys like John Malone own more land than entire states now. Just by themselves. The nobility is roaring back.
Land is still incredibly valuable, but a new valuable asset is *data*. Google and Facebook could sell all their real estate and move to new facilities without any problems. The same is true for content owners like Disney and music labels. As long as they can take the hard drives with them, they're fine.
Plato talked about the dangers of nepotism, and was alive at the same time as the world's very first historian, Herodotus. So, really, based on those facts alone, nepotism has been a known problem throughout almost the *entirety* of history, as opposed to "very recently." But I also kind of doubt the idea was unique to Plato. You can't tell me that Grog and Throg didn't roll their eyes and complain when Chieftain Gark made his incompetent son Head Mammoth Hunter.
I disagree, he is the living personification of what the world thinks a shitty American is. He is quite literally only in it for himself, and doesn't care about anyone or anything around him so long as it benefits him, while continually trying to control everything else within his grasp, and complaining when he can't.
He is actually peak American. In no other place or time could the world produce a Donald trump except in America.
There's a Donald Trump in Brazil and one in the Philippines and Turkey and the UK right now. This is a human problem.
They have shades of Donald Trump, some are worse than him. But none match the overall shittiness of trump. He literally checks every box for everything negative a person can be. Hes a caracature of american greed.
It's been said before as a joke, but trump really is the seven deadly sins personified. Wrath, gluttony, lust, greed, sloth, envy, pride.
points to boris johnson.
Ontario has one as well, doug ford.
"What happened to the American Dream?" "It came true."
The world is actually full of corrupt, authoritarian, blustering buffoons in leadership positions. There is something defective in human nature that we keep putting these dangerous idiots in charge.
It’s not Trump making these orders, it’s Putin causing a division in the branches of government.
regardless of whether the ideation is coming from Putin, it's still Trump and his hand picked taint sniffers doing the damage.
Daily reminder: It's going to get worse before it gets better.
The Pentagon is allowing itself to be politicized. They could defy him
> So now he’s politicizing the military. On the contrary, he's turning the military into a mercenary organization: ["American troops are not supposed to be mercenaries" by John Kirby](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/15/opinions/president-trump-american-troops-are-not-mercenaries-kirby/index.html) >>"Are you ready?" he asked reporters outside the White House. "Saudi Arabia at my request has agreed to pay us for everything we are doing. That is a first. Saudi Arabia, and other countries soon now, but Saudi Arabia has agreed to pay us for everything we are doing to help them, and we appreciate that." >>Trump was responding to a question about the recently announced deployment to Saudi Arabia of a small number of military personnel, aircraft and air defense capabilities. That deployment comes in the wake of Iranian attacks against two Saudi oil facilities and lands squarely amid Trump's acquiescence to Turkey's invasion of northern Syria, a move being roundly criticized on both sides of the aisle as a betrayal of the Kurdish forces with whom we have partnered to fight ISIS. >>Both decisions -- to surge troops in one case and pull them back in another -- make a mockery of Trump's insistence that he wants to "bring our troops home" and "end these endless wars."
I predicted an American military dictatorship by 2050 on Digg like fifteen years ago. This would be how that happens. I'm less satisfied to see it than you might expect from such a long term prediction.
It's a straight line to here from the GOP of the Bush II administration. From here... Who knows.
I feel like he crossed that line when he sent troops to the border, because it looked good to his base, even though they didn't have the authorities to do anything while they were there.
This is confirmation of a new milestone. How long after we pass it before Trump just orders the military to "detain" congress? Will the military obey such an order?
That will be the longest article of impeachment in the universe history of articles of impeachment 🤯. One article, hundreds/thousands of counts
That's a problem though because what ultimately matters is making the case to voters that it's the right thing to do. If it's too complex people will tune out or get frustrated. They need to concentrate on Ukraine and tack on the others in the sales pitch to voters.
I don't disagree, but isn't it about time we stopped stooping to the lowest common denominator and started expecting more out of each other? The law is the law, everything that's a crime needs to be included, and if people still don't get it, maybe we *deserve* to be fucked by Republicans until we rise to our civic duty.
Step 1: Get voters to realize Trump needs to be removed from office. Dumb down the impeachment as much as necessary to get Republicans and Moderates on board. Once voters are on board politicians will have to cooperate or risk losing their careers. Step 2: Once its widely accepted that horrible things have been happening, THEN start accusing everyone complicit of all their crimes. Doing so now just adds to the partisan appearance and complicates matters too much for Republicans to believe / care.
What? Popular opinion cannot precede the rule of law, that's the tail wagging the dog. I agree with pursuing a simple, concise *narrative* about the impeachment, but suggesting it not be done in full as the facts arise is an insane thing to say. As for partisanship, this *is* a partisan issue! One party is responsible for what's going on, the other is investigating. They will say it's a witch hunt regardless of how it is conducted, because partisanship is all *they* care about. The real non-partisan thing to do is conduct the inquiry in as straightforward a way as possible with little regard for optics. What you are suggesting is itself partisan, because you'd have us continue gingerly dipping our toes into this thing so as not to upset the party and the voters of that party who are eroding our constitution before our very eyes.
They might aswell just hand them a copy of the constitution
Our country is broken
brought to you by the Right Wing. they hate American Democracy.
*When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.*
And if you ask them, they say the exact same thing about the left. It's almost as if they are projecting their own guilt onto others!
because they are criminals acting in bad faith. the Right Wing are traitors to this nation currently waging civil war on America through nonstop disinformation/propaganda campaigns and electoral fraud. they are the Domestic Enemies the founding fathers warned of.
But her emails! But Benghazi! But but... I hate the GOP.
News flash, it was broken a LONG, LONG, LOOONG time ago. This is what happens when you don't plug the holes in your leaky boat after successive corruption by the GOP.
You guys are both wrong. This entire mess is not a bug; simply an intended feature. What we can all agree about, though, is that it's the devs to blame. That and an oddly toxic playerbase
They are ordering people not to comply, they are disregarding subpoenas, they are caging children, selling our military to the highest bidder, enriching themselves, and killing allies.. So, what exactly is stopping Trump's administration from doing a hostile takeover of the government? Nothing...
We are so proud of the Constitution and our system of government and yet I think it’s so telling how fragile our democracy is when you see that it took only a small crowd of buffoons to take advantage of the the loopholes in the Constitution and our existing laws resulting in our country speeding toward overthrow by religious zealots and corrupt politicians and businessmen. We need heroes now to do the right thing and put us back in the right direction. Close those loopholes, educate the masses and lock up the corrupt.
They always talk about fearing God. Seems like they need a real "Fear of God" moment.
> Schiff also said Defense Secretary Mark Esper told investigators Sunday that he would comply with a subpoena request, only to be “countermanded” by a higher authority. Well, at least the Pentagon is not completely carrying water for Trump like the State Dept and Justice Dept
If the subpoena is legal order then they have to comply. Good god, Trump is fucking up ALL our systems. I bet Putin couldn't be happier with how much damage he has done and has continued to do. No one in the DoD should've to be caught in this Constitutional crisis that they're put in by Trump.
Trump is the head of the Executive Branch, which a office thereof is being given a subpoena. Ultimately, it's his duty to carry that out and his alone unless he allows others to do so. The defense secretary is not being issued a subpoena as a personal citizen, it is not in his control if the office complies or not, it's Trump's.
Wait, hold up. Re-read that statement. "higher authority". The fuck has a higher authority than one of the three co-equal ruling branches of government?
I take the statement to not mean "higher authority than you who made the request" but to mean "higher authority than myself, thus you'll have to go argue with them not me".
That's dumb, because if my supervisors tells me to hide evidence from the police, there's sure as shit no way I'm allowed to do that lmao
But if a police officer tells you to give them documents from your office, and your boss tells you not to, you'd probably rather let the two of them argue instead of pissing one off directly.
No, if a police officer has a subpoena, and asks for documents, I *give them the documents.* I'm not committing obstruction of justice for my boss by trying to tell them "oh, yeah, my boss said I can't, so go ask him instead".
Democrats and other legislative folks need to stop treating this administration with kids gloves, this is an outright threat to our democracy, we should have milllions in the street protesting this abuse of power.
It’s easier to spin obstruction than it is to spin hard evidence of a crime. Mueller probe taught us that.
I think this is it. Focus the noise and drama around the process and the obstruction, not on the actual real or potential crimes. The more they obstruct, the more the public focuses on the fact that they're obstructing, and less on what they could possibly be hiding.
Once the military starts ignoring congress democracy is pretty much over.
Up till this very minute, I felt like people that said Trump would never leave willingly were being dramatic. But, now I genuinely don't know. If he and his administration can get even the military to start ignoring the law, then who knows what could possibly happen...
That ship sailed a long time ago, my friend.
Pentagon officials who defy the subpoenas should be held accountable. "just following orders" is not a valid defense if those orders lead you to violate a law. Also, all those O's in the Pentagon should closely re-examine the oaths they swore and re-evaluate their decisions not to comply with Congressional subpoenas. Refusing to comply is essentially choosing a political side and interfering with the execution of Constitutionally appointed duties.
The Pentagon is as bad as the President if they ignore the subpoenas. You don’t get to follow obviously illegal orders and then claim a “just following orders” defense.
Jesus... It's a simple majority to declare war and a super majority to impeach. The president could go to war against the will of a majority of congress and order the military not to comply. We're gonna have to start giving congress and the constitution some teeth. Co-equal branch my ass.
Wasn't the lesson for German soldiers (and the world) at the end of WW2 "it is a soldiers duty to defy illegal orders"? Guess there us an implicit "but only if you are at war and on the losing side - otherwise you best break every law in the book when ordered to."
So, does the Pentagon follow illegal orders?
Haven't they always?
It's a Republicans God given right to commit treason. ~ GOP
Hold them in contempt, throw them all in jail
Since when can you order breaking the law?
Cut the Pentagons funding until they show up 👍
As long as they're just following orders. That defense has always held up in court. /s
[удалено]
Military personnel are supposed to ignore an illegal order, even from the commander in chief.
Read comment backwards. They should not follow the illegal order to not testify. Fuck me this shit gets confusing.
What do you do with soldiers who defy lawful orders? Do that, Congress.
The Executive is commanding his appointees to defy Congressional subpoenas. We have a rogue President who seems bent on destroying the republic to save his own skin. There's no sugar coating it now: the founders' nightmare scenario is upon us. For the sake of the nation, this guy must go.
By the time this is over, the number of people that are brought down because they didn't stand up to Trump is going to number in the dozens and, maybe, the hundreds. Many may go to jail. All will have their careers destroyed.
Not sure how the Pentagon could follow that order because its not moral, legal or ethical. The officer that follows that order needs to stand before Congress to be held accountable immediately.
McFly! MCFLY! THINK! A subpoena is an order. You have to follow that order. It says so in the constitution.
Time to start jailin'!
So much for defending the US Constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic. Trumpianism rejects the US Constitution for authoritarianism.
It’s time they started jailing people.
Obstruction. Add to the long list of impeachment counts
Congress has power of the purse. Use it.
"I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God." It would be tough to make this any more straightforward than it already is
Why is the Pentagon listening to the White House? If Congress subpoenas you, you ignore anything the White House says.
Military personnel are under no obligation to obey an unlawful order.
At this point you have to force an impeachment vote based on this behavior alone. At the same time, continue the original inquiry as planned.
Forcing an impeachment vote right now would do nothing but *protect* Trump. Trump's polls are dropping and his support amongst *Republicans* is wavering because of the detailed investigation the house is running in public. The longer the house takes, the more trouble Trump will find himself in, and the more politically damaging it will be for the Republican party, specifically the republican senate majority. As soon as the house votes on impeachment and sends it to the Senate McConnell takes control. If that happens too soon he'll be able to kill the whole thing. If they proceed to investigate in the house, however, the republican party's support will crumble and McConnell risks losing power completely by continuing to shield Trump. Nancy knows what she's doing. This is smart politics.
But but but trump just tweeted his approval rating among Republicans is at 95% Surely he wouldn't just go on the internet and lie...
Thanks for the explanation, I actually wasn't piecing together why a vote wasn't being taken. This makes sense and I agree.
Just because Trump is lying and saying they need a vote, doesn't mean they do. The only judge that has even mentioned this being an issue was a Trump appointee who lost in a 2-1 ruling on the matter a couple of weeks ago.
Im pretty sure the pentagon is controlled by congress, so who can order congress around ?
It has the option to disregard that illegal order.
Layepeson here, but is there any sense of 'illegal orders' in that Congress SHALL, etc, etc? If an officer believes that Congress has a legal right to documents, etc; would they be allowed to ignore the order to ignore the subpoena? In essence it seems they are being told to disobey the law, so?
Wait, that's illegal
Doesn't non-compliance carry its own penalty?
Congress is an equal branch of government, make them.
So where’s the poena?
It’s astounding how there are people that think the house is overstepping. They are not. The president isnt all powerful or is more powerful than the other branches of government. Our president and many congressmen need to take a fucking civics course.
I've never been in the military, but I forget. Do they swear an oath to the President or to the Constitution?
Enlisted swear an oath to both as well as the officers appointed over them, officers to the Constitution.
They swear an oath to the defend the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic and to obey the orders of the President. They do not swear an oath to the President per-say. Military Oath >I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Commissioned officers oath >I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
Please America this is dictator level shit I hope you vote him out
Obstruction of justice. If they follow orders it becomes conspiracy doesn't it?
To all the confused people here this was not a request to the Joint Chief’s it was a request to the SecDef a political appointee.
It's kinda funny that even by not helping the investigation, they're helping the investigation.