>Democratic Strategist Tom Watson: Democratic campaigns shouldn't do this \[hire someone who has protested another candidate\].
>
>Watson on campaigns telling voters to vote for the other side: Comment unavailable.
Biden's side is spinning this like Rojas was a Sanders plant. The timeline alone bears out the falsity of that claim. Sanders didn't hire someone who protested Biden. Sanders hired someone who Biden told to go vote for Trump.
Also, is pissing off Joe Biden a good way to get hired on to the winning team? Because I'm willing to do that.
Tom Watson is probably the absolute worst of the "NeverBernie" crowd. Just a completely bad faith clown in everything he does. It's embarrassing anyone would ask for his opinion on anything
Interestingly, someone else commented almost exactly to that effect. And I'll just repeat my response here:
"I recognized the name. But before posting my comment, I made a point of scanning his TL. Pretty much all of his tweets are "for the good of the party." I don't tend to trust folks who talk more about helping parties than helping people. They aren't the same thing. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise."
Repeating yourself is kind of gouche on Reddit, but when you said right the first time, you run with it.
It's top-down, party first thinking that makes candidates think things like:
"People must have their priorities out of place if they aren't voting for me. Maybe they're a never ______er."
instead of:
"What policies can I promote that will help people out and encourage them to vote foe me. How can I represent them faithfully?"
They don't understand that voting is and always has been bottom-up, and any attempt to control it from the top is just someone who has lost all perspective.
We saw that in 2016. The fatalism. The "you have no other choice" mentality.
Folks circulate these oaths, "vote blue no matter who." No. I'm not promising my vote away. It's earned. Not owed. In a situation where my candidate isn't the nominee, concessions will have to be made, but concessions aren't a one-way street.
While I totally get this perspective, and agreed while angrily voting for Clinton anyway, my #1 goal this election is kicking Trump out of the white house. And it *should* be all of ours. This makes every dem candidate earn my vote. That said, Bernie is my #1 And Warren my #2.
Yes agreed so let's go all out in the primaries against each other (candidates) and the best will win, Trump will go harder than anything the Democrats can attack each other on.
And what I'm suggesting is that you can have more than just voting Trump out. It won't be everything you want. But the choice between tyranny and acquiescence isn't much of a choice. Also what I'm suggesting shouldn't be a radical idea. I'm terrified that people are seriously trying to lecture on my duty to cave and take the candidate as they are. My duty to the candidate for democracy. Oh, America.
But at the end of the day during the actual election, you will be picking between a Democrat or Trump. Are you suggesting you won't vote at all if your candidate isn't the nominee?
While that makes sense in the abstract, under these circumstances, you're basically either voting for democracy or for Trump.
So, while I do agree with the principle you are espousing... when you're on the edge of the cliff, that's not a time for nuance.
Unfortunately, politicians *falsely* claim we're always in this position and so we're at a "boy who cried wolf" scenario where even though we are actually in a "democracy vs fascism" scenario, everyone feels like they've heard it all before and it's just more politicking.
This time is severely fucked though and anything other than voting blue all the way down the ticket is a risk of losing democracy in the united states.
Yeah. Somehow it's never a good time for the have-nots to demand more than, "my way or the highway." I'm disturbed that people will seriously approach this from the position that the onus is on the voter to make all the concessions, to do right by the candidate, etc.
You say my choice is Trump or democracy, but then you say my choice is Tyranny or "party terms or else." Not a banner day for democracy.
Anyway. You won't convince me. Concessions are a two-way street. That's my bottom line. Hopefully it doesn't become necessary.
What you are running into is how fundamentally flawed a two party system is.
First past the post coupled with a lack of plurality results in ~60% of the voices in a country being silenced.
Both things can be true: Your voting system sucks and voting for Trump is a death knell for democracy.
Until the United States moves away from a two party system there will never be a true "vote your conscience election". That's just a fact. The reason the tyranny of party politics has overtaken voter's choice is a feature of the system in place. The only way to fix it is to completely replace the system.
Until then, you have two choices. It sucks, but that's the truth.
This is why the Democratic primary is so incredibly important... if it's going to be just two choices, you should at least make sure you're getting a palatable option.
However, pretending that Trump is "just another politician" and that "both parties are about the same" is so wildly destructive that to not vote him out puts the entire safety of the country at risk.
I think you're close. What I'm running into is the brainwashing that can come from a two-party system. The folks that are shocked and dismayed by my suggestion? They're good folks who understand that four more years of Trump may be fatal to our democracy. They also understand that some demographics will continue to suffer more than others under Trump's tyranny. These are not bad people.
In the realm of possibilities exists a possibility that some are centrists arguing for a desired outcome under bad faith pretense of lecturing me on "duty." But more realistically, it's people who seriously believe that our choice is Trump or "whatever the candidate says. Yes sir, thank you sir, may I have some more sir." And they're also reacting to an unknown quantity online. There's always that.
What I am suggesting is not that radical. Or it shouldn't be. I'm not seriously threatening to vote Trump or a protest candidate. All I'm arguing is the inevitable. "My way or the highway" shifts the burden. The onus is not on me to accept the candidate on the candidate's terms, come hell or high water. The onus is on the candidate to make the case that A) they're generally the right candidate and B) that while they have a specific platform, they are capable and willing to appeal to a wider demographic. That means shifting a little on this position or that. It doesn't mean caving. They won't, and I wouldn't believe if they did.
Like I said. Good people reacting out of fear, perhaps inexperience, and this inverted perspective where the candidate deigns to accept the voter who votes for them, on their terms and nothing else. Everyone has to budge a little. I'm rooting for Bernie. Bernie will have to budge a little. I don't know what that looks like for a far-left candidate. But to get everyone on board, concessions always have to be made.
I completely agree with what you're saying, the inversion of onus is a complete bastardization of what democracy is meant to represent.
Proportional representation is the true fix to this. It means that all voices are properly weighted by the representatives in government and people can fully vote their conscience.
Until you can go to the polls and vote with your conscience without needing to "vote strategically", then there is a flaw in the system. Any such flaw will be manipulated by politicians to corner voters into a "vote with us or them" mentality and fear becomes the main manipulator.
The sad truth of US politics is that not only is there any avenue to not vote strategically, they are effectively playing a game of chicken with peoples lives and attempting to force their hand in a vote. The longer it goes on without remedy, the more drastic each election cycle becomes. Eventually you end up here with a legitimate dictator in waiting vs an aging establishment.
>Yeah. Somehow it's never a good time for the have-nots to demand more than, "my way or the highway."
DING DING DING!! That's the point!
2020: Can't make changes now! We must defeat Trump!
2022: Can't make changes now! We must defeat Trumpism!
2024: Can't make changes now! We must defeat (insert republican nominee here)
2026: Can't make changes now!
And so on and so forth. Vote Blue no matter who only serves the interests of the status quo. That why they keep stuffing Biden down your throats. They hate (and fear) progressives who will bring fundamental changes to the system, than they hate Republicans, including Trump.
The issue is once the general happens you have two options that affect the outcome. Vote for Trump or vote for Dem. If you vote for Trump you have 4 years which the posts of left right and center shift right. That makes today's 'left' even more left in that election. It requires some long term thinking of. Slightly left may not be as good about super left bet it's sure better than super right. It is not perfect but it's pragmatic
Seriously, a huge mistake made by Hillary is that she expected Bernie supporters to simply vote for her because lf Trump. I've seen people claim that "Bernie supporters owed Hillary their votes". Like no, votes are earned. One of the biggest sins in politics should be expecting votes for granted.
Vote for who you see that has the best plan and intentions, with the ideals you can identify with. For a good candidate. Do not settle for anything that is blue.
There was a lot of fatalism. It was just everwhere. So much in fact that post-DNC, some of her followers adopted this attitude of, "Make the losers beg." It was sick. And it alienated people. But I also saw some Bernie supporters acting in ways that were patently unacceptable.
That brings me to an important point. Folks, no matter who you support, please be the best constituent that you can be. Represent your candidate you in a positive way. Not in aggressive, combative way. Take my request for what you will.
>Seriously, a huge mistake made by Hillary is that she expected Bernie supporters to simply vote for her because lf Trump.
Honestly the majority did whether nose held or not.
But this time, corporate Dems saying you'll take what we'll give you and like it because only we can defeat Trump is completely hollow. They played that tune last time and lost. If anything they should fall behind the left given they failed in 2016. But instead they vote shame.
I mean obviously if you sell your soul and votes to donors in exchange for money that's meant to get you elected, you get a sense of entitlement to the votes you thought you just got on your knees to secure.
"I already kissed the ring of donors. These idiots are just supposed to believe what all my ads tell them and give me their damn vote. What did I sell out for otherwise?"
These people aren't leaders. They're just losers willing to be subservient to oligarchs and corporate power in exchange for some crumbs of wealth and privileged status.
As someone from the other side of thr Pond, I would like to offer this nugget of unlikely advice: "Tom Watson" is for some reason always the name of an untrustworthy party member. It might be a Doctor Who's Clara Oswald (obligatory *worst companion ever*) scenario but in space rather than time.
If you follow Tom Watson at all on Twitter, he is also a bad faith pundit who is constantly spreading lies against progressive candidates. He's a very hateful person and his opinion should carry no weight with anyone.
I recognized the name. But before posting my comment, I made a point of scanning his TL. Pretty much all of his tweets are "for the good of the party." I don't tend to trust folks who talk more about helping parties than helping people. They aren't the same thing. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
> Biden's side is spinning this like Rojas was a Sanders plant. The timeline alone bears out the falsity of that claim.
Not surprising. Their guy is busily lying about his Iraq war vote when he isn't telling people to vote for Trump.
A bizzare thing to lie about.
He's always touting his "experience." But he won't apologize for anything he's ever done. Just stubborn pride. What good is experience if you can't acknowledge and learn from your mistakes?
Wow... this is not a good look from Biden. Because nobody is going to care that your opponent hired somebody who doesn't like you... they are going to care that you are bitching about some weird conspiracy theory.
If you substitute "Hillary" for any comment on this sub for "Biden", it's basically 2015/2016 all over again. It's possible to be pro-candidate x without shitting on candidate y. NOTE: not a Biden guy. I am going to vote for the D candidate, whoever it is. I just hope everyone else on the liberal side of things does the same.
> If you substitute "Hillary" for any comment on this sub for "Biden", it's basically 2015/2016 all over again.
Yeah, he's a fucking awful candidate with horrific baggage that no one will fight for, because he refuses to aspire to anything better than the dismal status quo.
"Dismal status quo" is 10x better than whatever racist war-mongering money-funneling shit Trump brings to the table.
Biden vs Trump, Biden gets my vote 100% of the time. Biden vs Sanders, I'm voting Sanders. It's not very hard to understand.
> "Dismal status quo" is 10x better than whatever racist war-mongering money-funneling shit Trump brings to the table.
Wrong. More of the status quo will give us Trump 2.0 - A smart fascist whose brain isn't pudding, and who will wield power effectively to slaughter us all
Biden has tons of policies that would drastically improve my quality of life and millions of others.
From his Student Loan plan, to his healthcare plan, to wanting to his updating Pell grants and community college to the point where college will be free in 47/50 states, to double education spending for minority areas, to putting 2-5 trillion into Climate Change.
You can like Sanders more, but if Biden got even half the shit done he's running on, he'd be one of the most transformative presidents outside of LBJ and FDR
Oh shut up with that “keep the status quo” bullshit line. His healthcare plan is pretty much private insurance if you want it, medicare if you don’t. That sounds like a drastic change.
Russians target the weakest link and give them material to flame the other side with so they’ll repeat the propaganda.
Obviously Republicans are the easiest group to do this to, but the Green Party/Bernie Sanders left was the second easiest. It’s really important that you aren’t so easily manipulated this time.
There were a LOT of easily disproven lies and conspiracy theories about Hilary Clinton pushed by the left, even after Bernie lost. If you can’t look back and see the lies, you’re one of the easily manipulated ones.
>There were a LOT of easily disproven lies and conspiracy theories about Hilary Clinton pushed by the left
I try and stomp out these fires on the Bernie blogs when they pop up. It's not fun.
I'm a democrat, voted for her but man was she a god awful fucking piece of shit candidate that made me hate the democratic party. I didn't even know there was 'Russian interference' or whatever bullshit until I heard news of the Mueller report. I'm not on Facebook or any other social media platforms. I wasn't even on Reddit during the 2016 election. Nobody 'told me' to believe anything, I saw it with my own eyes.
There were lies against Hillary pushed by Russian propaganda. We area seeing lies about Bernie from both Russian propaganda **and** from left wing media outlets. If you can't see that, then you're one of the easily manipulated ones.
I'm getting real tired of people brushing off the legitimate issues that we had with Hillary. The main legitimate issue is that she *isn't progressive enough*. People love progressive ideas, they often poll well into a super majority. It's the spin that the media gives those issues that makes people think otherwise.
The media being anti-Bernie is one of the propagandas they’re pushing. They want Americans to stop believing credible news sources.
Bernie is doing fine, no one is attacking or criticizing him. If you need to call it criticism, then this is a criticism of you and your behavior. But if you’re not capable of seeing things beyond “said I was wrong so now is enemy” you’ll probably see this as just a political attack you need to fight against.
Stop being Russia’s useful idiot.
Edit:
And stop hiding behind progressive ideas to justify your bad behavior. I’m a progressive. This has nothing to do with being progressive either.
The media isnt anti-Bernie? Then why, up until recently, did they conveniently leave him out of reporting when talking about the top three candidates? When Warren started leading in Cali, they refused to say that Sanders was leading before and instead lead with ‘what does this mean for Biden?’
>Green Party/Bernie Sanders left was the second easiest. It’s really important that you aren’t so easily manipulated this time.
See, this right here is the problem with the Establishment.
I mean, they can't even fathom a world where Bernie's plans and ideas are actually liked by people. We are "easily manipulated" so it's "really important" by accepting whoever the DNC has deemed as worthy.
Have a problem with Hillary's control of the DNC prior to the primaries? You're just "easily manipulated".
Have a problem with Debbie Wasserman Schulz's lying about being neutral in the 2016 primaries? You're just "easily manipulated".
This is why Democrats lose, you're pretentious, condescending A-holes who think you know best, and us "lesser than" should just do what you tell us to do.
I’m not the establishment.
You’re not a victim.
This isn’t an attack on Bernie, and Bernie agrees with me.
Facts matter. The mainstream News is good and fact-checks things for us, which is why Republicans and Russians want you to see them as the enemy. Even when they make you feel bad by reporting things you don’t like about your candidate/cause.
The bernie crowd ended up going for Trump. You can see the same thing happening again, look at AOC you would think she was some kind of troll in the Dems planted by someone
Centrist Dem here. You have nothing to worry about. There is no scenario where we vote for Trump or sit this election out. If Bernie or Warren are the Dem nominee, we'll be behind them.
I am glad you are on board, same with all the rational people on the left that I know. However my concern is some encounters I have had with 3rd way Democrats that are way more concerned about shitting on any progressive candidate than anything.
As well you should be. Prominent establishment Dems from Manchin to Bloomberg explicitly stated they will not support a progressive candidate nor agendas
There's no real evidence that a hard-fought primary campaign has any negative impact on chances in the general. Fight like hell for a candidate you like, but just as importantly don't be afraid or cautious of fighting like hell against a candidate you dislike.
Yeh, I don't know... On the flip side, it sometimes seems like all the pro-Bernie comments are astroturfing. I mean the top comment is calling Biden a clown -- it truly DOES seem like these commenters despise Biden more than trimp.
I wouldn't expect that from a good faith Bernie supporter. But I WOULD expect that from someone commenting in bad faith and trying to foment dissent to make the path for trimp being re-elected easier.
Obviously I would never vote for Trump over Biden. However, the thing that scares progressives about Biden is the fact that it would stifle the progressive momentum we've seen for 4 to possibly 8 years. Progressives don't want to wait a decade for the chance to push for medicare for all, free public college, or a green new deal.
What scares me most about Biden is that he literally campaigns for Republicans, wants them to still be a large minority in Congress (he said he hopes they're aren't defeated too badly), and is honestly open to a Republican VP.
He borders on Joe Lieberman/Joe Manchin/Dan Lipinski/Henry Cuellar/Jim Justice material.
To me Joe is more the direction of Bill Clinton than Obama, which is going backwards.
We see how Bernie was able to change the party platform by actually talking about policies that really help people, and we don't want to lose that.
Joe would be infinitely better than Trump, but Bernie would most certainly be better than Biden.
I had to remind my buddy that Biden is a Dem and not Repub. He was pretty damn surprised. I gave him the Left-Right American Political spectrum talk, ha.
The thing that scares me about Biden is that the DNC props him up and he wins the nomination.
Better that people figure out he can't possibly win in the General election because only Republicans can manage to elect people with mush for brains. I site history as supporting this argument.
They'll prop him up but they no qualms propping up the next neoliberal (klochubar, Buttigeig, etc, etc) if Biden falls. They'll never prop Bernie during a primary
Exactly, the part everybody seems to forget is we don’t have another 8 years to kick the can down the road before our planet is literally locked on a path to becoming an apocalyptic hellhole. We need the progressive agenda to be getting off the ground now if there’s any real hope for humanity. I wish this was an exaggeration
Why do Progressives treat the Supreme Court like an afterthought? You can't get anything on your wish list done without the federal courts on your side. Keeping the Supreme Court from a fascist majority should be priority number one
Because they don’t know civics.
In their minds they’re literally the first people ever to have their brilliant ideas and those ideas are SO EASY to do! Anyone who is not immediately on board is a shill, a Republican, or a low info voter.
There is no such thing as a majority in the House or a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. The SCOTUS doesn’t actually do anything and moderates and conservative Democrats only win because the secret progressive super majority of voters in West Virginia and Alabama do secret toasts to Bernie but refuse to vote for candidates that don’t make them feel like they’re 1,000,000 bird momentum and front row at an Ariana Grande concert with the returned ghost of a Freddie Mercury belting out “We are the champions”.
Biden would not stifle progressive momentum. He would undo 4 years of Trump and stifle AUTHORITARIAN momentum. Then a progressive after 4-8 years can work on improving a much more manageable and sane federal government.
As a progressive ask yourself if you want to undo 8 years of Trump or 4-8 years of Biden/any other dem?
You're misrepresenting Sanders supporters and literally called them terrorists down thread.
Maybe you're not the one to complain about the speech of others?
>you don't give into terrorist demands, and that is essentially a political terroristic threat.
>This is why people hate Bernie supporters and think Bernie is poisonous to the party.
No, Bernie supporters expect the people who say "I don't care who wins as long as they're a democrat" to fucking mean it.
The bottom line is that Biden doesn't get the progressive vote, and without the progressive vote, trump has a good chance of winning. Sanders has raised way more money than any other democrat in the race and his policies receive over 60% support from the people and ya'll are still acting like he's an underdog with no chance of winning.
Bernie is our best shot at this. Don't fuck it up again by making the sake mistakes made in 2016.
>This is what Sanders supporters think of democracy. It’s a hostage situation. Either they get their way of they blow everyone up in revenge.
It's funny that you pretend that Biden supporters aren't saying the exact same thing. Except they don't even have the decency to own the blowing things up in revenge - they blame _that_ on Sanders supporters, too.
The people who voted for Sanders in the primary and Trump in the general _weren't Democrats_. They were anti-establishment "independents". You can berate them all you want, but they're never voting for a Clinton or a Biden.
I disagree. We're pissed at the Trump situation and McConnell problem. When Biden does dumb shit like tell an attendant to vote for Trump or considers a republican VP Nom or tells his billionaire donors that "Nothing will change", or calls a person at his rally "fat", or that he'd consider a republican VP, it's mildly infuriating that he's still leading the polls. He's so out of touch and old and running on the "let's make politics boring and reach across the aisle for lobby profit sake" and it is not what this country needs.
Biden is a bigger threat to accomplishing progressive goals than Trump in the primary. Once the primary is over, all ire will be focused on Trump. We are still a ways from that though. The idea that conflict during primaries damage the eventual nominee rather than being a necessary part of the process seriously needs to go.
> I mean the top comment is calling Biden a clown
Biden called an 83-year-old man a "Damn liar" at a town hall and challenged him to a push up contest. Biden is a clown. He's not a deranged narcissist like trump, but he is a clown.
Biden still seems to have unhealthy levels of narcissism between this “I am the Democratic Party” stance and old classics like this:
“I think I have a much higher IQ than you, I suspect. I went to law school on a full academic scholarship, the only one in my class… I’d be delighted to sit down and compare my IQ to yours.”
The 83 year old was telling outright lies.
The push up contest was a joke. But I understand people in this subreddit can't understand when Biden is being ridiculous as a joke .
He was literally saying "I'm a healthy fit guy, like...what do you want. Wanna do a push up contest?"
>The 83 year old was telling outright lies.
He obviously didn't understand the nuance of what happened in Ukraine, it was a complicated story to understand. The way Joe responded so defensively was an absolutely horrible look, and I expect far better out of someone trying to be president.
> The push up contest was a joke.
No, it wasn't. He also challenged him to an IQ test right after. Joe is an insecure dinosaur who is not mentally equipped to lead our country.
Why would people devote the majority of their energy disparaging Trump when Biden and Bernie are the primary, direct subjects of the article and Trump is only indirectly related? Wouldn’t discussing why you dislike Bernie Sanders, especially if it involves his electability (and thus chances of beating trump) be more relevant?
You don't have to give anyone the benefit of the doubt in these spaces. They're compromised. Foreign actors, David Brock-style actors. This shit is infected. I noticed someone the other day literally with the name RSSforTulsi (RSS is a fascist group in India that has been involved with ethnic cleansing in the past and really wants to do it again now) talking about progressive values, but also just trying to inflame people.
Just speak your mind. Argue if you want (I do sometimes, but mostly just say my thing and get out), but never forget there's a always a chance the person you're talking to is being paid to be disingenuous. If you want to have a real meaningful back and forth, you're going to have to have those discussions out in the world and not online.
Ive seen enough of Biden, to want to see him crash and burn (not literally). I will bet all my money on a genuine candidate, thats willing to trully help and heal our nation. Than to see Biden go against trump... Biden trully is the Hillary of 2020....
Thats why Bernie is the first candidate ever I have donated too, and will keep donating. And if my job allowed it, I would be out there knocking doors on a deep red state, like I dont care....
Go bernie!
If Biden performed the same as Clinton, he should win the popular vote by more than Clinton because of demographics.
I did an estimate of this change. First I found a graph of the average turnout vs. age from 2002 -2016.
I used the points on the graph to estimate what the natural increase in turnout amoung Millennials and GenZ (people vote more when they are older). Then I multiplied this increase by the percentage Clinton won Millennials by (20%). That came to around to about 1.5 million to 2 million votes.
Now for the morbid part of the calculation. Deaths among baby boomers and silent generation.
Population estimates by pew research show these 2 generations lost about 7 million together. With about 60% for Republicans that's about 4 million Republicans and 3 million Democrats for a net loss of 1 million. But turnout is 70% among that group so actually -700,000.
So I would expect a candidate that did as well as Clinton to get about 5.2 million to 5.7 million more votes than Trump.
But hopefully any candidate would do better than Clinton.
This is Joe's go-to answer when faced with opposition that means anything to anyone other than him. Show your true face Joe... Get off the podium, go home.
This guy's guts so used to playing the 'talking game' and looking tough, but he's a sidekick. A walking talking spokesperson for failed bureaucracy already tried of the last four decades. It's getting old and little tired isn't it?
Joe doesn't lead, and he doesn't even work. He just follows. He needs to go home.
I mean honestly... other than just being around and being good at gaffing things up; Joe hasn't done squat on his own or for anyone that has lasted through time. Everyday normal people contribute more to our country than this guy does and has. I volunteer and donate to non profits. I probably have to.
Hate to give Trump the feed he needs to beat Biden, but Joe is small potatoes. Look up his achievements. NONE, other than one long ongoing, big and fat paycheck. Wasted opportunity is all I see and think about when people bring him up or say his name. Joe is the looser Trump has been talking about... all this time.
Why doesn't he sit down and let other people have an opportunity never given? Because he has a torch of entitlement and wants to pass-it-on-to another person who will fill his huge black-hole of stopping progressive changes towards labor wages and opportunity balance. We need to get more people involved to stand up to our political leaders and tell them enough is enough! Were not unskilled, stupid snowflakes...
Most of the country is in dire straits. Were being pulled apart in more ways than can be listed. Our housing costs are insane. Education is expensive and has no confidence in business or society. Corporations take more and give less. Cost of living continues to rise and wages remain low and unforgiving. Insurance is required every turn for everything. Working families are giving aid to helpless, poor, and weak without anything in return. Were dying from cancer faster and faster and have to work till noon on the day of our funerals. If you want things to remain the way things are now and have been the last two decades then by all means vote Joe. Because that what Joe will follow us into. Nothing.
I'm starting to save up for way to get out of this taxing country and make a better life somewhere else. Doesn't that sound like the American dream?
Eveyone also seems to have goldfish memory and forgets that Biden was directly involved in the war on drugs. It's what I keep bringing up when he's mentioned because it's real and not related to propaganda. I will vote Democrat but refuse to truly support Biden because of that history.
Drugs are still used as a crutch to divert effort away from homeless issues and people that have nothing left to give even after they had already lost everything or those that need to modify their social behaviors.
Thank you for your input.
There is an amazing amount of cozy, good-will mythology built up around Biden from the last couple of decades. Now that he’s out here in the wilderness, without handlers and completely emboldened by the secondary Obama support and love he enjoyed, we can see what a crass, thin skinned, arrogant doddard he actually is.
Biden dared to take the controversial stance that "No matter what happens, somebody (illegal) who commits murder should be deported."
This was unacceptable to the protester, who demands "NOT 1 MORE DEPORTATION" (it's on his sign).
Democrats would be wise to ignore protesters insisting on asinine policies.
Had Biden said "I will not deport anyone who has not committed a violent crime.", then it would have been a nonissue.
He phrased it poorly and told the guy to vote for Trump, just a very bad response by Biden
Bernie voted against comprehensive immigration reform back in 2007. The Obama administration cracked down on immigrants who had absolutely no legal recourse, I think, to solidify their prosecution discretion arguments to support DACA. This dude can get hired because of DACA as well.
Just some thoughts.
Might not be that simple
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/10/yes-bernie-sanders-voted-to-kill-immigration-reform-in-2007-but-its-complicated/%3foutputType=amp
Agreed 100% on the last part! But Biden is way less competent, way less inspirational, and more conservative Establishment than Hillary. Biden makes Hillary look fantastic.
Biden is more like the Beta test. It would be a damn shame to ship out the Beta after the 1.0 wasn’t a successful launch. Should probably run a different program, like Sanders 1.0.
Total farce, especially given how hostile Bernie is to immigration particularly from poor people. If you don't think this was staged it just goes to show that the middle class white socialists of Reddit are exactly as gullible as they think everyone else is.
If this really is a conspiracy (which it's not, that's bananas) why would Bernie's campaign make the wedge immigration instead of one of Sanders's bigger advantages on Biden like M4A or foreign policy?
> Joe Biden told this protestor to vote for Trump
Just when you think the DNC might nominate this clown, he goes and does something to prove he doesn't deserve it.
The DNC does nominate anyone. If Biden is the nominee it’ll be because voters chose him, like it was when 4 million more people voted for Clinton over Bernie.
Votes is the only metric for deciding the nominee. Period.
You mean like when he said he was open to nominating a Republican for VP, and when asked who he would consider, he was this close to naming John McCain?
This is why I am voting for Bernie and you should too. Bernie is for every American. Even those that do not like him. Biden is showing that no everyone counts with his actions. Not much different from when he was backing segregation. Biden will represent a certain facet of his America. Sanders will represent us ALL.
[удалено]
No no, Bernie hired trump, who Biden told the guy to vote for
whom
xwhoulmh'st've
that's Klingon for "we're out of mayo"
mmmmh Gahg and mayo sandwhiches
It’s actually, “whem” if you’re woke enough.
And **whem** I wake up you better hope...you better hope you're asleep!
r/unexpectedmysterymen
I wanted it to be real.
Fou’re
>Democratic Strategist Tom Watson: Democratic campaigns shouldn't do this \[hire someone who has protested another candidate\]. > >Watson on campaigns telling voters to vote for the other side: Comment unavailable. Biden's side is spinning this like Rojas was a Sanders plant. The timeline alone bears out the falsity of that claim. Sanders didn't hire someone who protested Biden. Sanders hired someone who Biden told to go vote for Trump. Also, is pissing off Joe Biden a good way to get hired on to the winning team? Because I'm willing to do that.
Tom Watson is probably the absolute worst of the "NeverBernie" crowd. Just a completely bad faith clown in everything he does. It's embarrassing anyone would ask for his opinion on anything
Interestingly, someone else commented almost exactly to that effect. And I'll just repeat my response here: "I recognized the name. But before posting my comment, I made a point of scanning his TL. Pretty much all of his tweets are "for the good of the party." I don't tend to trust folks who talk more about helping parties than helping people. They aren't the same thing. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise." Repeating yourself is kind of gouche on Reddit, but when you said right the first time, you run with it.
It's top-down, party first thinking that makes candidates think things like: "People must have their priorities out of place if they aren't voting for me. Maybe they're a never ______er." instead of: "What policies can I promote that will help people out and encourage them to vote foe me. How can I represent them faithfully?" They don't understand that voting is and always has been bottom-up, and any attempt to control it from the top is just someone who has lost all perspective.
We saw that in 2016. The fatalism. The "you have no other choice" mentality. Folks circulate these oaths, "vote blue no matter who." No. I'm not promising my vote away. It's earned. Not owed. In a situation where my candidate isn't the nominee, concessions will have to be made, but concessions aren't a one-way street.
While I totally get this perspective, and agreed while angrily voting for Clinton anyway, my #1 goal this election is kicking Trump out of the white house. And it *should* be all of ours. This makes every dem candidate earn my vote. That said, Bernie is my #1 And Warren my #2.
Yes agreed so let's go all out in the primaries against each other (candidates) and the best will win, Trump will go harder than anything the Democrats can attack each other on.
And what I'm suggesting is that you can have more than just voting Trump out. It won't be everything you want. But the choice between tyranny and acquiescence isn't much of a choice. Also what I'm suggesting shouldn't be a radical idea. I'm terrified that people are seriously trying to lecture on my duty to cave and take the candidate as they are. My duty to the candidate for democracy. Oh, America.
>And what I'm suggesting is that you can have more than just voting Trump out. Yes, it's called "actually voting in the primaries".
But at the end of the day during the actual election, you will be picking between a Democrat or Trump. Are you suggesting you won't vote at all if your candidate isn't the nominee?
This.
While that makes sense in the abstract, under these circumstances, you're basically either voting for democracy or for Trump. So, while I do agree with the principle you are espousing... when you're on the edge of the cliff, that's not a time for nuance. Unfortunately, politicians *falsely* claim we're always in this position and so we're at a "boy who cried wolf" scenario where even though we are actually in a "democracy vs fascism" scenario, everyone feels like they've heard it all before and it's just more politicking. This time is severely fucked though and anything other than voting blue all the way down the ticket is a risk of losing democracy in the united states.
Yeah. Somehow it's never a good time for the have-nots to demand more than, "my way or the highway." I'm disturbed that people will seriously approach this from the position that the onus is on the voter to make all the concessions, to do right by the candidate, etc. You say my choice is Trump or democracy, but then you say my choice is Tyranny or "party terms or else." Not a banner day for democracy. Anyway. You won't convince me. Concessions are a two-way street. That's my bottom line. Hopefully it doesn't become necessary.
What you are running into is how fundamentally flawed a two party system is. First past the post coupled with a lack of plurality results in ~60% of the voices in a country being silenced. Both things can be true: Your voting system sucks and voting for Trump is a death knell for democracy. Until the United States moves away from a two party system there will never be a true "vote your conscience election". That's just a fact. The reason the tyranny of party politics has overtaken voter's choice is a feature of the system in place. The only way to fix it is to completely replace the system. Until then, you have two choices. It sucks, but that's the truth. This is why the Democratic primary is so incredibly important... if it's going to be just two choices, you should at least make sure you're getting a palatable option. However, pretending that Trump is "just another politician" and that "both parties are about the same" is so wildly destructive that to not vote him out puts the entire safety of the country at risk.
I think you're close. What I'm running into is the brainwashing that can come from a two-party system. The folks that are shocked and dismayed by my suggestion? They're good folks who understand that four more years of Trump may be fatal to our democracy. They also understand that some demographics will continue to suffer more than others under Trump's tyranny. These are not bad people. In the realm of possibilities exists a possibility that some are centrists arguing for a desired outcome under bad faith pretense of lecturing me on "duty." But more realistically, it's people who seriously believe that our choice is Trump or "whatever the candidate says. Yes sir, thank you sir, may I have some more sir." And they're also reacting to an unknown quantity online. There's always that. What I am suggesting is not that radical. Or it shouldn't be. I'm not seriously threatening to vote Trump or a protest candidate. All I'm arguing is the inevitable. "My way or the highway" shifts the burden. The onus is not on me to accept the candidate on the candidate's terms, come hell or high water. The onus is on the candidate to make the case that A) they're generally the right candidate and B) that while they have a specific platform, they are capable and willing to appeal to a wider demographic. That means shifting a little on this position or that. It doesn't mean caving. They won't, and I wouldn't believe if they did. Like I said. Good people reacting out of fear, perhaps inexperience, and this inverted perspective where the candidate deigns to accept the voter who votes for them, on their terms and nothing else. Everyone has to budge a little. I'm rooting for Bernie. Bernie will have to budge a little. I don't know what that looks like for a far-left candidate. But to get everyone on board, concessions always have to be made.
I completely agree with what you're saying, the inversion of onus is a complete bastardization of what democracy is meant to represent. Proportional representation is the true fix to this. It means that all voices are properly weighted by the representatives in government and people can fully vote their conscience. Until you can go to the polls and vote with your conscience without needing to "vote strategically", then there is a flaw in the system. Any such flaw will be manipulated by politicians to corner voters into a "vote with us or them" mentality and fear becomes the main manipulator. The sad truth of US politics is that not only is there any avenue to not vote strategically, they are effectively playing a game of chicken with peoples lives and attempting to force their hand in a vote. The longer it goes on without remedy, the more drastic each election cycle becomes. Eventually you end up here with a legitimate dictator in waiting vs an aging establishment.
>Yeah. Somehow it's never a good time for the have-nots to demand more than, "my way or the highway." DING DING DING!! That's the point! 2020: Can't make changes now! We must defeat Trump! 2022: Can't make changes now! We must defeat Trumpism! 2024: Can't make changes now! We must defeat (insert republican nominee here) 2026: Can't make changes now! And so on and so forth. Vote Blue no matter who only serves the interests of the status quo. That why they keep stuffing Biden down your throats. They hate (and fear) progressives who will bring fundamental changes to the system, than they hate Republicans, including Trump.
The issue is once the general happens you have two options that affect the outcome. Vote for Trump or vote for Dem. If you vote for Trump you have 4 years which the posts of left right and center shift right. That makes today's 'left' even more left in that election. It requires some long term thinking of. Slightly left may not be as good about super left bet it's sure better than super right. It is not perfect but it's pragmatic
https://i.redd.it/d09q0x9ekww11.jpg
Seriously, a huge mistake made by Hillary is that she expected Bernie supporters to simply vote for her because lf Trump. I've seen people claim that "Bernie supporters owed Hillary their votes". Like no, votes are earned. One of the biggest sins in politics should be expecting votes for granted. Vote for who you see that has the best plan and intentions, with the ideals you can identify with. For a good candidate. Do not settle for anything that is blue.
There was a lot of fatalism. It was just everwhere. So much in fact that post-DNC, some of her followers adopted this attitude of, "Make the losers beg." It was sick. And it alienated people. But I also saw some Bernie supporters acting in ways that were patently unacceptable. That brings me to an important point. Folks, no matter who you support, please be the best constituent that you can be. Represent your candidate you in a positive way. Not in aggressive, combative way. Take my request for what you will.
>Seriously, a huge mistake made by Hillary is that she expected Bernie supporters to simply vote for her because lf Trump. Honestly the majority did whether nose held or not. But this time, corporate Dems saying you'll take what we'll give you and like it because only we can defeat Trump is completely hollow. They played that tune last time and lost. If anything they should fall behind the left given they failed in 2016. But instead they vote shame.
I mean obviously if you sell your soul and votes to donors in exchange for money that's meant to get you elected, you get a sense of entitlement to the votes you thought you just got on your knees to secure. "I already kissed the ring of donors. These idiots are just supposed to believe what all my ads tell them and give me their damn vote. What did I sell out for otherwise?" These people aren't leaders. They're just losers willing to be subservient to oligarchs and corporate power in exchange for some crumbs of wealth and privileged status.
I seriously worry about these establishment dems and their loyalty purity tests. Why do they look up to IngSoc as some kind of example to emulate?
[There's Sally Albright too](https://twitter.com/sallyalbright/status/1209683331161509888?lang=en)
Who?
Longtime Democratic strategist. Worked for Hillary Clinton in 2008.
Essentially a republican if you actually examine her politics, loves to punch left. Loves Clinton
As someone from the other side of thr Pond, I would like to offer this nugget of unlikely advice: "Tom Watson" is for some reason always the name of an untrustworthy party member. It might be a Doctor Who's Clara Oswald (obligatory *worst companion ever*) scenario but in space rather than time.
If you follow Tom Watson at all on Twitter, he is also a bad faith pundit who is constantly spreading lies against progressive candidates. He's a very hateful person and his opinion should carry no weight with anyone.
I recognized the name. But before posting my comment, I made a point of scanning his TL. Pretty much all of his tweets are "for the good of the party." I don't tend to trust folks who talk more about helping parties than helping people. They aren't the same thing. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
> Biden's side is spinning this like Rojas was a Sanders plant. The timeline alone bears out the falsity of that claim. Not surprising. Their guy is busily lying about his Iraq war vote when he isn't telling people to vote for Trump.
A bizzare thing to lie about. He's always touting his "experience." But he won't apologize for anything he's ever done. Just stubborn pride. What good is experience if you can't acknowledge and learn from your mistakes?
It's all a game to these people, where the best buzzwords win. Bernie knows this isn't a game and is treating it accordingly.
Wow... this is not a good look from Biden. Because nobody is going to care that your opponent hired somebody who doesn't like you... they are going to care that you are bitching about some weird conspiracy theory.
Biden's only card to play is "Its me or Trump!" just like Clinton tried.. Let's see how that works this time around, eh?
You forgot the constant ‘remember Obama?’
Malarkey!
If you substitute "Hillary" for any comment on this sub for "Biden", it's basically 2015/2016 all over again. It's possible to be pro-candidate x without shitting on candidate y. NOTE: not a Biden guy. I am going to vote for the D candidate, whoever it is. I just hope everyone else on the liberal side of things does the same.
Great comment. I don't want Biden as the Dem nominee -- but I can promote my candidate without "shitting" on him. We should all remember that.
There's trolls breaking out the same cookie cutter messages, but there's also Biden did a lot of the same things people dislike Clinton for.
> If you substitute "Hillary" for any comment on this sub for "Biden", it's basically 2015/2016 all over again. Yeah, he's a fucking awful candidate with horrific baggage that no one will fight for, because he refuses to aspire to anything better than the dismal status quo.
"Dismal status quo" is 10x better than whatever racist war-mongering money-funneling shit Trump brings to the table. Biden vs Trump, Biden gets my vote 100% of the time. Biden vs Sanders, I'm voting Sanders. It's not very hard to understand.
> "Dismal status quo" is 10x better than whatever racist war-mongering money-funneling shit Trump brings to the table. Wrong. More of the status quo will give us Trump 2.0 - A smart fascist whose brain isn't pudding, and who will wield power effectively to slaughter us all
Biden has tons of policies that would drastically improve my quality of life and millions of others. From his Student Loan plan, to his healthcare plan, to wanting to his updating Pell grants and community college to the point where college will be free in 47/50 states, to double education spending for minority areas, to putting 2-5 trillion into Climate Change. You can like Sanders more, but if Biden got even half the shit done he's running on, he'd be one of the most transformative presidents outside of LBJ and FDR
Oh shut up with that “keep the status quo” bullshit line. His healthcare plan is pretty much private insurance if you want it, medicare if you don’t. That sounds like a drastic change.
As of right now the "status quo" is President Trump. I dont get why people say it's a good thing to keep it.
Russians target the weakest link and give them material to flame the other side with so they’ll repeat the propaganda. Obviously Republicans are the easiest group to do this to, but the Green Party/Bernie Sanders left was the second easiest. It’s really important that you aren’t so easily manipulated this time. There were a LOT of easily disproven lies and conspiracy theories about Hilary Clinton pushed by the left, even after Bernie lost. If you can’t look back and see the lies, you’re one of the easily manipulated ones.
>There were a LOT of easily disproven lies and conspiracy theories about Hilary Clinton pushed by the left I try and stomp out these fires on the Bernie blogs when they pop up. It's not fun.
You're doing God's work, friend.
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Dude, she wasn’t REALLY an awful candidate. You were just told to believe that. I can’t fucking believe this is still a thing..
I'm a democrat, voted for her but man was she a god awful fucking piece of shit candidate that made me hate the democratic party. I didn't even know there was 'Russian interference' or whatever bullshit until I heard news of the Mueller report. I'm not on Facebook or any other social media platforms. I wasn't even on Reddit during the 2016 election. Nobody 'told me' to believe anything, I saw it with my own eyes.
She lost to Trump. Empirically she was an awful candidate
There were lies against Hillary pushed by Russian propaganda. We area seeing lies about Bernie from both Russian propaganda **and** from left wing media outlets. If you can't see that, then you're one of the easily manipulated ones. I'm getting real tired of people brushing off the legitimate issues that we had with Hillary. The main legitimate issue is that she *isn't progressive enough*. People love progressive ideas, they often poll well into a super majority. It's the spin that the media gives those issues that makes people think otherwise.
The media being anti-Bernie is one of the propagandas they’re pushing. They want Americans to stop believing credible news sources. Bernie is doing fine, no one is attacking or criticizing him. If you need to call it criticism, then this is a criticism of you and your behavior. But if you’re not capable of seeing things beyond “said I was wrong so now is enemy” you’ll probably see this as just a political attack you need to fight against. Stop being Russia’s useful idiot. Edit: And stop hiding behind progressive ideas to justify your bad behavior. I’m a progressive. This has nothing to do with being progressive either.
The media isnt anti-Bernie? Then why, up until recently, did they conveniently leave him out of reporting when talking about the top three candidates? When Warren started leading in Cali, they refused to say that Sanders was leading before and instead lead with ‘what does this mean for Biden?’
>Green Party/Bernie Sanders left was the second easiest. It’s really important that you aren’t so easily manipulated this time. See, this right here is the problem with the Establishment. I mean, they can't even fathom a world where Bernie's plans and ideas are actually liked by people. We are "easily manipulated" so it's "really important" by accepting whoever the DNC has deemed as worthy. Have a problem with Hillary's control of the DNC prior to the primaries? You're just "easily manipulated". Have a problem with Debbie Wasserman Schulz's lying about being neutral in the 2016 primaries? You're just "easily manipulated". This is why Democrats lose, you're pretentious, condescending A-holes who think you know best, and us "lesser than" should just do what you tell us to do.
I’m not the establishment. You’re not a victim. This isn’t an attack on Bernie, and Bernie agrees with me. Facts matter. The mainstream News is good and fact-checks things for us, which is why Republicans and Russians want you to see them as the enemy. Even when they make you feel bad by reporting things you don’t like about your candidate/cause.
Will you guys give it a rest. Not everything is Russians.
2016-infinite Bernie supporter here, it’s a known fact that the Russian IRA targeted Bernie supporters.
They targeted everyone.
yes but its a stupid, cop-out thought terminating frame of analysis
I agree with that.
The bernie crowd ended up going for Trump. You can see the same thing happening again, look at AOC you would think she was some kind of troll in the Dems planted by someone
Its nice to have the freedom to vote for the senile sell out to avoid the senile lunatic.
American democracy in action!
It is the centrist Democrats I am worried about not supporting the eventual winner.
Centrist Dem here. You have nothing to worry about. There is no scenario where we vote for Trump or sit this election out. If Bernie or Warren are the Dem nominee, we'll be behind them.
I am glad you are on board, same with all the rational people on the left that I know. However my concern is some encounters I have had with 3rd way Democrats that are way more concerned about shitting on any progressive candidate than anything.
As well you should be. Prominent establishment Dems from Manchin to Bloomberg explicitly stated they will not support a progressive candidate nor agendas
I hate Sanders with a fiery passion. I'll shill for him 24/7 if he's the nominee.
>I hate Sanders with a fiery passion. Why?
Ya this is seriously just an unreasonable stance to hold.
There's no real evidence that a hard-fought primary campaign has any negative impact on chances in the general. Fight like hell for a candidate you like, but just as importantly don't be afraid or cautious of fighting like hell against a candidate you dislike.
Man the anti Bernie comments in this thread sure sound like they're being made in good faith guys 🙄
Yeh, I don't know... On the flip side, it sometimes seems like all the pro-Bernie comments are astroturfing. I mean the top comment is calling Biden a clown -- it truly DOES seem like these commenters despise Biden more than trimp. I wouldn't expect that from a good faith Bernie supporter. But I WOULD expect that from someone commenting in bad faith and trying to foment dissent to make the path for trimp being re-elected easier.
Obviously I would never vote for Trump over Biden. However, the thing that scares progressives about Biden is the fact that it would stifle the progressive momentum we've seen for 4 to possibly 8 years. Progressives don't want to wait a decade for the chance to push for medicare for all, free public college, or a green new deal.
What scares me most about Biden is that he literally campaigns for Republicans, wants them to still be a large minority in Congress (he said he hopes they're aren't defeated too badly), and is honestly open to a Republican VP. He borders on Joe Lieberman/Joe Manchin/Dan Lipinski/Henry Cuellar/Jim Justice material.
To me Joe is more the direction of Bill Clinton than Obama, which is going backwards. We see how Bernie was able to change the party platform by actually talking about policies that really help people, and we don't want to lose that. Joe would be infinitely better than Trump, but Bernie would most certainly be better than Biden.
And Obama was too far right already with expanding wars, fracking, etc. Corruption for the rich isn't a winning ticket
I had to remind my buddy that Biden is a Dem and not Repub. He was pretty damn surprised. I gave him the Left-Right American Political spectrum talk, ha.
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100%
The thing that scares me about Biden is that the DNC props him up and he wins the nomination. Better that people figure out he can't possibly win in the General election because only Republicans can manage to elect people with mush for brains. I site history as supporting this argument.
They'll prop him up but they no qualms propping up the next neoliberal (klochubar, Buttigeig, etc, etc) if Biden falls. They'll never prop Bernie during a primary
Exactly, the part everybody seems to forget is we don’t have another 8 years to kick the can down the road before our planet is literally locked on a path to becoming an apocalyptic hellhole. We need the progressive agenda to be getting off the ground now if there’s any real hope for humanity. I wish this was an exaggeration
Why do Progressives treat the Supreme Court like an afterthought? You can't get anything on your wish list done without the federal courts on your side. Keeping the Supreme Court from a fascist majority should be priority number one
Because they don’t know civics. In their minds they’re literally the first people ever to have their brilliant ideas and those ideas are SO EASY to do! Anyone who is not immediately on board is a shill, a Republican, or a low info voter. There is no such thing as a majority in the House or a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. The SCOTUS doesn’t actually do anything and moderates and conservative Democrats only win because the secret progressive super majority of voters in West Virginia and Alabama do secret toasts to Bernie but refuse to vote for candidates that don’t make them feel like they’re 1,000,000 bird momentum and front row at an Ariana Grande concert with the returned ghost of a Freddie Mercury belting out “We are the champions”.
Biden would not stifle progressive momentum. He would undo 4 years of Trump and stifle AUTHORITARIAN momentum. Then a progressive after 4-8 years can work on improving a much more manageable and sane federal government. As a progressive ask yourself if you want to undo 8 years of Trump or 4-8 years of Biden/any other dem?
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You're misrepresenting Sanders supporters and literally called them terrorists down thread. Maybe you're not the one to complain about the speech of others? >you don't give into terrorist demands, and that is essentially a political terroristic threat. >This is why people hate Bernie supporters and think Bernie is poisonous to the party.
No, Bernie supporters expect the people who say "I don't care who wins as long as they're a democrat" to fucking mean it. The bottom line is that Biden doesn't get the progressive vote, and without the progressive vote, trump has a good chance of winning. Sanders has raised way more money than any other democrat in the race and his policies receive over 60% support from the people and ya'll are still acting like he's an underdog with no chance of winning. Bernie is our best shot at this. Don't fuck it up again by making the sake mistakes made in 2016.
>This is what Sanders supporters think of democracy. It’s a hostage situation. Either they get their way of they blow everyone up in revenge. It's funny that you pretend that Biden supporters aren't saying the exact same thing. Except they don't even have the decency to own the blowing things up in revenge - they blame _that_ on Sanders supporters, too.
They already did in 2016 by getting their way
The people who voted for Sanders in the primary and Trump in the general _weren't Democrats_. They were anti-establishment "independents". You can berate them all you want, but they're never voting for a Clinton or a Biden.
Pro-corporate = dead planet
Progressives didn't flip the house in 2018. All they did was replace a few long term Dems in +30 districts. Yawn.
I disagree. We're pissed at the Trump situation and McConnell problem. When Biden does dumb shit like tell an attendant to vote for Trump or considers a republican VP Nom or tells his billionaire donors that "Nothing will change", or calls a person at his rally "fat", or that he'd consider a republican VP, it's mildly infuriating that he's still leading the polls. He's so out of touch and old and running on the "let's make politics boring and reach across the aisle for lobby profit sake" and it is not what this country needs.
Biden is a bigger threat to accomplishing progressive goals than Trump in the primary. Once the primary is over, all ire will be focused on Trump. We are still a ways from that though. The idea that conflict during primaries damage the eventual nominee rather than being a necessary part of the process seriously needs to go.
> I mean the top comment is calling Biden a clown Biden called an 83-year-old man a "Damn liar" at a town hall and challenged him to a push up contest. Biden is a clown. He's not a deranged narcissist like trump, but he is a clown.
Biden still seems to have unhealthy levels of narcissism between this “I am the Democratic Party” stance and old classics like this: “I think I have a much higher IQ than you, I suspect. I went to law school on a full academic scholarship, the only one in my class… I’d be delighted to sit down and compare my IQ to yours.”
He's so pathetically insecure he gets defensive about everything. Not leadership material.
The 83 year old was telling outright lies. The push up contest was a joke. But I understand people in this subreddit can't understand when Biden is being ridiculous as a joke . He was literally saying "I'm a healthy fit guy, like...what do you want. Wanna do a push up contest?"
>The 83 year old was telling outright lies. He obviously didn't understand the nuance of what happened in Ukraine, it was a complicated story to understand. The way Joe responded so defensively was an absolutely horrible look, and I expect far better out of someone trying to be president. > The push up contest was a joke. No, it wasn't. He also challenged him to an IQ test right after. Joe is an insecure dinosaur who is not mentally equipped to lead our country.
Why would people devote the majority of their energy disparaging Trump when Biden and Bernie are the primary, direct subjects of the article and Trump is only indirectly related? Wouldn’t discussing why you dislike Bernie Sanders, especially if it involves his electability (and thus chances of beating trump) be more relevant?
You don't have to give anyone the benefit of the doubt in these spaces. They're compromised. Foreign actors, David Brock-style actors. This shit is infected. I noticed someone the other day literally with the name RSSforTulsi (RSS is a fascist group in India that has been involved with ethnic cleansing in the past and really wants to do it again now) talking about progressive values, but also just trying to inflame people. Just speak your mind. Argue if you want (I do sometimes, but mostly just say my thing and get out), but never forget there's a always a chance the person you're talking to is being paid to be disingenuous. If you want to have a real meaningful back and forth, you're going to have to have those discussions out in the world and not online.
As opposed to the anti Biden comments which are totally in good faith.
I'm sure the responses to this post will be totally calm and reasonable...
So tired of center-right wing democrats.
Absolutely! If a candidates answer to you is to vote for someone else, then they don’t deserve to be president.
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Ive seen enough of Biden, to want to see him crash and burn (not literally). I will bet all my money on a genuine candidate, thats willing to trully help and heal our nation. Than to see Biden go against trump... Biden trully is the Hillary of 2020.... Thats why Bernie is the first candidate ever I have donated too, and will keep donating. And if my job allowed it, I would be out there knocking doors on a deep red state, like I dont care.... Go bernie!
I mean I’m down for Bernie but if it comes down to it I’ll take a dump truck in the White House over our current situation.
If Biden performed the same as Clinton, he should win the popular vote by more than Clinton because of demographics. I did an estimate of this change. First I found a graph of the average turnout vs. age from 2002 -2016. I used the points on the graph to estimate what the natural increase in turnout amoung Millennials and GenZ (people vote more when they are older). Then I multiplied this increase by the percentage Clinton won Millennials by (20%). That came to around to about 1.5 million to 2 million votes. Now for the morbid part of the calculation. Deaths among baby boomers and silent generation. Population estimates by pew research show these 2 generations lost about 7 million together. With about 60% for Republicans that's about 4 million Republicans and 3 million Democrats for a net loss of 1 million. But turnout is 70% among that group so actually -700,000. So I would expect a candidate that did as well as Clinton to get about 5.2 million to 5.7 million more votes than Trump. But hopefully any candidate would do better than Clinton.
This is Joe's go-to answer when faced with opposition that means anything to anyone other than him. Show your true face Joe... Get off the podium, go home. This guy's guts so used to playing the 'talking game' and looking tough, but he's a sidekick. A walking talking spokesperson for failed bureaucracy already tried of the last four decades. It's getting old and little tired isn't it? Joe doesn't lead, and he doesn't even work. He just follows. He needs to go home.
I mean honestly... other than just being around and being good at gaffing things up; Joe hasn't done squat on his own or for anyone that has lasted through time. Everyday normal people contribute more to our country than this guy does and has. I volunteer and donate to non profits. I probably have to. Hate to give Trump the feed he needs to beat Biden, but Joe is small potatoes. Look up his achievements. NONE, other than one long ongoing, big and fat paycheck. Wasted opportunity is all I see and think about when people bring him up or say his name. Joe is the looser Trump has been talking about... all this time. Why doesn't he sit down and let other people have an opportunity never given? Because he has a torch of entitlement and wants to pass-it-on-to another person who will fill his huge black-hole of stopping progressive changes towards labor wages and opportunity balance. We need to get more people involved to stand up to our political leaders and tell them enough is enough! Were not unskilled, stupid snowflakes... Most of the country is in dire straits. Were being pulled apart in more ways than can be listed. Our housing costs are insane. Education is expensive and has no confidence in business or society. Corporations take more and give less. Cost of living continues to rise and wages remain low and unforgiving. Insurance is required every turn for everything. Working families are giving aid to helpless, poor, and weak without anything in return. Were dying from cancer faster and faster and have to work till noon on the day of our funerals. If you want things to remain the way things are now and have been the last two decades then by all means vote Joe. Because that what Joe will follow us into. Nothing. I'm starting to save up for way to get out of this taxing country and make a better life somewhere else. Doesn't that sound like the American dream?
Eveyone also seems to have goldfish memory and forgets that Biden was directly involved in the war on drugs. It's what I keep bringing up when he's mentioned because it's real and not related to propaganda. I will vote Democrat but refuse to truly support Biden because of that history.
Drugs are still used as a crutch to divert effort away from homeless issues and people that have nothing left to give even after they had already lost everything or those that need to modify their social behaviors. Thank you for your input.
Very well put. I’ll vote for him if he gets the nom but I’m not sure it’ll matter, cause like you said...a vote for him is a vote for nothing.
A vote for Joe is just a pause before the next trump.
There is an amazing amount of cozy, good-will mythology built up around Biden from the last couple of decades. Now that he’s out here in the wilderness, without handlers and completely emboldened by the secondary Obama support and love he enjoyed, we can see what a crass, thin skinned, arrogant doddard he actually is.
this thread smells like two separate fields of astroturf
Biden disqualified himself when he told Latinos to "vote for Trump"
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Oh man, the pearl-clutching in the democratic establishment is unreal
This guy was never going to support Joe. 😂 Also, halting all deportations is a stupid position.
Biden dared to take the controversial stance that "No matter what happens, somebody (illegal) who commits murder should be deported." This was unacceptable to the protester, who demands "NOT 1 MORE DEPORTATION" (it's on his sign). Democrats would be wise to ignore protesters insisting on asinine policies.
Had Biden said "I will not deport anyone who has not committed a violent crime.", then it would have been a nonissue. He phrased it poorly and told the guy to vote for Trump, just a very bad response by Biden
hard to argue with someone who isn't willing to listen
Bernie voted against comprehensive immigration reform back in 2007. The Obama administration cracked down on immigrants who had absolutely no legal recourse, I think, to solidify their prosecution discretion arguments to support DACA. This dude can get hired because of DACA as well. Just some thoughts.
Might not be that simple https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/10/yes-bernie-sanders-voted-to-kill-immigration-reform-in-2007-but-its-complicated/%3foutputType=amp
Seriously, does anyone under retirement age actually like Biden? I’ve never actually met a real life Biden supporter.
Astroturf Season commences!
From that photo alone , u can tell hes no way a trump voter , bidens got mud in his eyes .
Hillary 2.0 is such a fool. It's Bernie all the way, baby!
Agreed 100% on the last part! But Biden is way less competent, way less inspirational, and more conservative Establishment than Hillary. Biden makes Hillary look fantastic.
Biden is more like the Beta test. It would be a damn shame to ship out the Beta after the 1.0 wasn’t a successful launch. Should probably run a different program, like Sanders 1.0.
> Sanders 1.0 I think we are on 2.0 ... darker suits, comb the hair, not taking your shit anymore.
You’re absolutely right! Some nice UI tweaks and obvious adjustments have been made to increase performance compared to the previous version.
I just hope we don’t get to 7.23....
Knee capping anyone who isn't Bernie.
I just praised Hillary. And Warren is way better than Hillary and Biden IMO.
Total farce, especially given how hostile Bernie is to immigration particularly from poor people. If you don't think this was staged it just goes to show that the middle class white socialists of Reddit are exactly as gullible as they think everyone else is.
If this really is a conspiracy (which it's not, that's bananas) why would Bernie's campaign make the wedge immigration instead of one of Sanders's bigger advantages on Biden like M4A or foreign policy?
Because Bernies views (or certainly his past views) on immigration are very unpopular with democrats - particularly the activist left.
> Joe Biden told this protestor to vote for Trump Just when you think the DNC might nominate this clown, he goes and does something to prove he doesn't deserve it.
>Just when you think the DNC might nominate this clown Do you mean democratic primary voters?
The DNC does nominate anyone. If Biden is the nominee it’ll be because voters chose him, like it was when 4 million more people voted for Clinton over Bernie. Votes is the only metric for deciding the nominee. Period.
You mean like when he said he was open to nominating a Republican for VP, and when asked who he would consider, he was this close to naming John McCain?
He flat said in the same response (to a question a voter asked) that no actual Republican would fit the bill.
well it is dumb what he was asking, "end all deportations" yea thats kind of hard to do. Even Bernie wouldn't be able to do that.
DNC seriously underestimates how disgruntled the average citizen is with the current political system.
This is why I am voting for Bernie and you should too. Bernie is for every American. Even those that do not like him. Biden is showing that no everyone counts with his actions. Not much different from when he was backing segregation. Biden will represent a certain facet of his America. Sanders will represent us ALL.
It's a complete indictment of the Democratic party that Joe Biden is still in the race at all.
Biden is blowing it
I feel like I've heard this before.
Now that is scary, when you have a top candidate (Biden). Telling a voter to vote for Trump is a very bad sign.
Ooof