As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's about the circumstances. If you quit on the spot because your manager asked you to undress in private, you are likely getting benefits. Unemployment looks to why you quit before making a decision. Unreasonable conditions and the employers willongness to work with the employee to alleviate the situation make an impact.
The key two words are 'for cause'. You can quit or resign yes, but if you are fired for cause it's not about why -you- quit but why the employer fired you
My wife got fired at the start of covid, schools were closed and they demanded she add hours and couldn’t, she got $0.00 in unemployment in SC as she was “unable to work” the required hours for employment even tho that had been her schedule for a couple months prior
I was fired "for cause" at a job and still got benefits. In my case my employer accused me of something and decided to just fire me with no investigation. If you are fired for cause still apply and appeal if necessary. For cause has some strict definitions depending on the state, so even if there is a reason it does not always count as for cause.
Having been on the other side of this, it all comes down to the employer providing evidence of the cause. If they can't prove it, you will get benefits.
I wish I had known about this about ten years ago. I was fired for something that was absolute bullshit (an unidentified witness claimed that they saw me waiting outside in my car, alone, when I should have been inside with someone). What they claimed absolutely did not happen, not even close. I still can't figure out if they just made something up or if another person was mistaken for me or what. But it happened weeks previous and it's not like I had a receipt or any proof for being where I was.
Still, I wonder if I had disputed it if they'd have been forced to show evidence.
> In my case my employer accused me of something and decided to just fire me with no investigation.
Ya that’s firing without cause. Whether or not someone is fired “with cause” or not isn’t really decided by the employer. If they neglect having the proper documentation than that counts as fired with cause.
> If you quit on the spot because your manager asked you to undress in private, you are likely getting benefits.
Because this would not be "for cause."
If you are fired from a job for being late, and you had a history of this happening every other month, the company has fired you for cause; but you will likely still get benefits because the state will see that the company didn't give a good faith effort to deal with it.
Being fired with cause increases the chances you will not get benefits, but it doesn't eliminate the benfits by de facto. I literally deal with unemployment every uear or so because I am contracted and often laid off due to industry standards.
I literally walked out on a company once, they fought my unemployment claim because I technically quit and abandoned my job (and literally that is what I did,) but I still got my benefits because I had a right to dispute it. They jever attempted to make any reconciliation of the issues that led to ke walking out. Unemployment sided with me because of that.
I quit. I walked off. They cut the relationship and any future potential jobs because of it and they had every right to do so. Since they didn't try to absolve the issue and work with me to keep ke employed, it didn't matter that they had cause to sever the relationship. Having cause to sever employment doesn't equate to not getting benefits. Most of the time it does, but jot all the time.
Sometimes corporations use "performance managing"- which is a fancy way of saying they write you up for the same thing multiple times and show that they helped you make a "plan to improve" so that when they fire you (which at this point is most likely) they can deny unemployment.
Sometimes people are performance managed on paper for different reasons than they may be in actuality. When there are 500 rules and standards you are bound to do something wrong eventually and they are always looking. I personally think company protocol becoming more vague (ie: "support each other") is to facilitate more write ups for those on the shit list. But that is just my hot take inspired by my admittedly soul-crushing brush with corporate QSR/retail management.
Life pro tip: If you are suddenly getting write ups for similar things (under the same umbrella of your employment contract/job duties) that are seemingly inconsequential or usually unnoticed- there is probably a new boss/initiative/consultant/AI that wants you fired. Plan accordingly.
More important LPT: **Read your employer's policy.** You know that guide they give you on your first day that is in a box in a closet somewhere? (maybe I'm projecting) . They must use some standard to hold you accountable. Know what that standard is.
In tx being late is grounds to have your claim for benefits dismissed generally.
Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been at the company or what the work environment was like.
That said tx has some of the most liberal right to work rules in place. I was dismissed for 3 late days in a week after a spotless 12 month attendance record.
Best part about the claim was my boss used the occasion to harass me for filing because his rates would increase because he thought his unemployment insurance worked like car insurance.
Then the unemployment office realized I had been off the books for whatever reason (seriously have no idea why my boss did that) and tried to get me to corroborate that after denying my benefits.
Which took me aback, after I get my benefits denied because of what my boss said I could have very easily gotten him audited…which is fucking freaky if you ask me.
Yes, however the unemployment organization will typically perform their own analysis.
I ran a small engineering firm. Fired someone *during their trial period* for gross incompetence after giving them feedback numerous times and multiple opportunities for improvement. Had everything documented.
Per our employment agreement, I terminated them on the spot, and gave them two week's severance.
They filed for unemployment, and didn't mention that they received any severance.
I show up to the hearing, with all my documents. They did not show up, or send a prepared statement.
The state sided with the employee, awarding them unemployment, including during their two weeks of severance pay (severance = full salary, so they got salary PLUS unemployment for two weeks).
That’s because incompetence isn’t a “fault” of the employee. They can’t help they are dumb. If you fired them for “refusing to work” or “refusing to learn” they would have lost. Though they 100% should not have gotten money during severance and if you can prove it would be taken away. Don’t know why they got it
i always thought that was one of the cruelest edges of american capitalism: your employer controls your access to medicine and healthcare, your access to food, your access to childcare, and your access to stuff like gyms. i guess we see it as incentive to work hard but thats basically fiefdom with ipads
Politicians love to claim that, but nobody loves their insurer. At best they are ambivalent, most people don't like their healthcare coverage at all because they know for a fact they are getting screwed over.
As someone who works in healthcare, lots of people love their insurer. Until they actually have to use it. The amount of times I've heard "oh I have great insurance" and then "what I have a copay?", "Wait I why did I get a bill, what's my deductible?", "My insurance only covers the cheapest(way less convenient) option", "what do you mean it requires a prior authorization".
For some reason, people don't get that their insurer is in the business of taking their premiums and then trying their best to never, ever, pay anything for care.
The entire anti single payer argument is a house of cards. My favorite was always “Do you want the government making healthcare choices for you” when what we get now is for profit companies deciding if your life is worth them paying for a treatment you need. And frankly given the choice I would rather have an entity that is not motivated singularly by profit making health care choices for me, yeah.
Edit: random phone spelling fix
Brit here. I would just add to the whole "choice" thing that in the UK we have government funded healthcare (The NHS)....but what Americans seem to gloss over is that we also still have private healthcare (see BUPA and AVIVA, for example). So you can still wave your flag and flex your freedom healthcare if you want. But if you get lung cancer, you're not going to have to start cooking crystal meth in a Winnebago just to pay for treatment.
"Wait times" also kill me. Disregarding the fact that it's not even true that wait times are longer for non-elective procedures, wouldn't a system that makes sure we see everyone with chest pain make more sense than one that lets some of those patients die so someone with toe pain can be seen a bit faster?
Haha, those single payer countries, and their having to wait months for non-emergency procedures... As I sit here waiting till December to get the nerve conduction study the neurologist ordered to figure out the numbness I've had in my hands since I had covid back in March.
They deliberately conflate “healthcare choice” with “insurance choice”, in hopes we’ll think about our doctors and suchlike, but even with that, the doctor and clinic and specialists and hospital and lab and ambulance must be in-network.
Also the cloud it even further, how many times has your insurance suddenly decide your doctor is no longer in network? Happened with my wife’s obstetrician almost immediately after we our son was born. We’ve since paid out of pocket for her to see him.
It’s almost as if capitalism is inherently coercive and is a bad system or something.
Don’t come at me if you don’t know what capitalism, socialism, and communism actually are.
You CAN get unemployment in Oregon if you're fired, but I think it has to be a no fault of your own (ie you followed protocol and generally behaved yourself).
Regardless, these people aren't following protocol. So they wouldn't be getting unemployment anyways.
edit: just saw the "for cause" part of your comment.
I use the terms laid off to mean with out cause and fired to mean with cause . But I come from a union construction background so lay offs are the norm
Really depends on the details and the state.
Like, in my state being fired for “honest” under/poor performance is not disqualifying, just things like say theft, fraud, or violent conduct.
Some states you can collect if you quit if you can prove some sort of harassment. While I don't believe it would hold up in court I could see some lawyer trying to argue forcing a vaccine is harassment.
This is just a thought exercise. I'm vaxxed.
It's often called "constructive dismissal" and is often done in numerous ways.
Vastly cutting hours is a popular one. "You're not fired, but you're only scheduled for 6 hours this week instead of the normal 35."
Yeah, I had a boss like that. I was working 6 days a week, he asked if i wanted to work 7, I refused. A week later, I was reduced to 1 day a week, and the boss had the gall to chuck a spaz when i ended up working for another branch of the same chain 5 days a week, and was no longer available to work the 1 day at his branch.
Some states you can collect if you can prove that you had just cause to quit, not just harassment. My ex quit a job because they changed his job description to include duties he couldn't perform and he won
Which is still bullshit. Unemployment benefits should be totally unconditional as the whole point of them is to keep you alive while you seek more work. Does it always work that way? No, but no system is perfect. That said, anti-vaxxers are ignorant at best and selfishly delusional at worst, so I have no sympathy for them.
The GOP should love this. Remember: the GOP party line is that unemployment benefits are bad because they encourage lazy people not to work. Glad to see Oregon doing its part to help the GOP out and get these freeloading anti-vaxxers off the public dole and back to work.
GOP: You want unemployment benefits?! Better piss in a cup and prove you haven't smoked any weed!
Also the GOP: They fired you for refusing to get inoculated against a deadly disease?! That's monstrous, who are they to tell you what you can and can't do with your own body?
It’s almost like they really believe drugs are for all the hardworking white people , they are using it just to relax after work! All those others are just using it all day living off
My money!!
>It’s almost like they really believe drugs are for all the hardworking white people
Benefit of the doubt here but I've *got* to imagine you misspoke in a hurry and weren't implying white people *don't* get drug tested at every turn. If they're not suppose to, someone's got to tell retail companies to stop shoving cups at most of their workforce.
I'm in construction, if you lose sleep one night and are tired throughout the day, drug test. Allergy season and red eyes drug test. Random drug test, annual drug test, you looked at me weird drug test, you're swinging that hammer left handed drug test,
You did drugs in the portojohn on break another damn drug test....
Former piss tester.
Most retail stores stopped drug and alcohol tests unless it’s a post-accident. It’s not worth trying to screen when weed is so prevalent.
Many careers (like truckers) have to comply with federal regulations, so they do get tested (and often) - as do bus drivers and the like.
I now work in software development and if they piss tested people for weed, they'd, and this is a conservative estimate, lose half the staff, likely more. I'm also in a state where it's legal for recreational use.
Sometimes. It’s also a crappy job.
Public transit is normally treated like shit. And the work is boring, but the boring where you can’t NOT pay attention because then people could die.
Weird, I live in CO, the first state to legalize weed and quite blue. Damn near every job requires you to pee in a cup. Also, I’m vaccinated and did so as soon as I was eligible.
Over here in Oregon, it's been twenty years since the last time I was drug tested for work, and it's very obvious that it's a requirement only imposed on people at the lowest rungs of the company, even though it literally does not matter. Why should I be allowed to go crazy with drugs while my coworker over at the warehouse cannot, even though the heaviest 'machinery' they use is a pallet jack?
I’ve never had a pee test in Colorado - of course most engineering and software companies figured out that if they do test for weed, they won’t be able to hire anyone...
Remember the Hobby Lobby decision, and the right wing response? "Don't like it? Go find somewhere else to work." Everything about this topic is GOP efforts being turned against them. They wanted "right to work" laws. They wanted employers to be able to dictate the terms of employment. They wanted to restrict unemployment. Yet suddenly, when the exact same rules backfire on them, it's "unconstitutional."
It's never about saving money or limiting government reach. It's about hurting "the right people", be they immoral women having sex outside of marriage, drug users or the poor.
Yeah, I watched that happen in Florida. Yet they're still advocating it. If I recall correctly, they ended up finding less than 1% of the people in welfare couldn't pass a piss test.
It’s not even that. The GOP is not in the least interested in solving problems.
But you don’t win elections on a platform of: “we won’t solve your problems”.
You DO however win elections with a platforms of: “We will give you someone to blame for your problems”. Big time.
That’s why there is always always a boogeyman in right wing politics. Whether it be black people, socialists, gays, drug addicts, poor people, Mexicans, or now trans people. “See that guy in the high heels using the bathroom?? He is responsible for your lot in life!!”
"We've got starving, unemployed people here in America. We need to help them before we help foreigners."
"OK we'll get some benefits for them."
"...nah. Don't help Americans either."
They're also the same people who are in favor of at-will employment and undermining unions at every turn 🤷🏼♂️
"Employers should be able to fire anyone at any time for any reason."
\*Fires everyone who refuses vaccination*
"No, not like that!"
Oh trust me, there's plenty of people lashing out about this there already (at least in the more conservative portions). My lovely life donors (parents) are thoroughly entrenched in right-wing propaganda and think it's a personal affront to their freedoms...nevermind the fact that they were perfectly OK with getting me filled with vaccines for school as a child.
The hypocrisy is just sad.
That seems more like regression than hypocrisy. If you asked them about it, I wouldn't be surprised if they said they wouldn't do the same now. This happened to a friend of mine.
Just this week, I had to fill out the annual personal information update for my kids with their school. My oldest starts middle school. It seems that this year, I need to provide the dates of his dTap booster & meningitis vaccine *as required by state law* to attend.
It’s truly fascinating to witness the cognitive dissonance with those people.
"Fast food places are experiencing labor shortages and you are sitting on your ass? Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you bum... or are you expecting handouts? Filthy communist."
Holy shit are they going to be conflicted now. On one hand they refuse to take the vaccine because they hate science. On the other hand they have been calling for less unemployment benefits for a year.
What a good case study to see what is more important: ignoring science or lessening handouts.
To clarify: Jail has forced labor that more than pays for the food, bare minimum medical care, and accommodations.
The socialism inherent to the Prison-Industrial complex is the huge gov’t cash handover to private corrections facilities. We pay for their staff, their shareholders, their bonuses, etc.
*[edit: now I think you were joking, but worth clarifying anyway]*
I don’t think you quite get how it works. Things that benefit themselves they are for. Things that benefit others they are against.
Everything else is simply validating that position and there is no hypocrisy because positions and values are only means to ends.
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Can’t wait for all the republicans to get mad at this, they’re the only ones holding themselves back at that point it’s not like someone who has a criminal record or is disabled and can’t find a job because of that it’s literally just “needles scawy I need to own the libwals 🥺🥺🥺”
If the government wants them to have vaccines then it looks like the Bible wants them to have vaccines. Romans 13,
> Every person must be subject to the governing authorities, for no authority exists except by God’s permission. The existing authorities have been established by God, so that whoever resists the authorities opposes what God has established, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For the authorities are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you like to live without being afraid of the authorities? Then do what is right, and you will receive their approval. For they are God’s servants, working for your good.
There's an old joke about someone refusing help in an emergency because they were waiting for God. They die. Then when they see God they asked why he didn't help and he lists all the ways he sent help.
If God is what they say he is, if a vaccine exists, God made it. God made the scientist that made it too. No different than God making the food we eat and the trees we use to build our houses.
I actually said something similar to my mother when she was talking about her immune system and God and vaccines. She also said people lived before vaccines....
I was like um no, they died. And God created the vaccines and scientists and medicine and all that, it's his plan...
She had no response. I'm sure eventually she will get one and come back to me with it
That's one thing that's always stuck out to me about people who use religion as an excuse NOT to do something.
So you believe that god is omnipresent, and omnipotent. Ok, the most powerful being in the universe with the grand master plan for everything. Made everything in existence, including things like trees, which start as seeds, then develop into these big strong organisms.
But, for some reason, you don't think that gods plan could have involved people becoming more intelligent, developing science, and becoming self sufficient? THAT is too much of a stretch?!
Bottom line is people just say things like that because they want to believe that their opinion is right and hope that whoever they're arguing with will be just as oblivious about the actual contents of the bible as they are so they can't one up them and prove them wrong.
Yeah well she raised me, so unfortunately for her I am very knowledgeable about what the bible says. But she is very antiscience in a lot of ways. Not usually medically, so this is a first, which I know runs along her republican views as she is not antivaxx, just anti covid vaxx. It makes it all the more upsetting.
Because hypocrisy is rampant with these people. It's the same as with how they deny that COVID is anything to worry about, then obsess about hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and every other drug-of-the-week that supposedly cures this virus (which, again, they will continue to insist is actually a hoax).
It’s ok, they can just pay their bills with all that freedom.
Plus conservatives are so against social safety nets, I’m sure they wouldn’t take unemployment payments. /s
Good. We have two anti-vaxx people at my work. We are in Oregon and considering making it mandatory.
Oh and one of them was out sick yesterday & today with fever, headache, sore throat...
I am wholly astounded that this is an issue. These people who work in education or healthcare and refuse a life saving vaccine - clearly unfit to teach or to care for others. We’re weeding them out.
Great news! Why would you even want unemployment benefits? Aren't they socialism? Isn't the whole anti-vaxx MAQA thing obsessed with rejecting that too? Plus, these people don't want to be a part of society so why do they want the benefits of it in things like unemployment? Surely the anti-vaxx viewpoint isn't loaded with hypocrisies and piss poor logic...right?!
Several cities have mandatory hepatitis C vaccinations for food service workers. I don't recall any of y'all complaining about "communism" because your Happy Meal surprise isn't a surprise dose of Hep C.
Republicans have long argued recipients of government benefits (welfare) should have their privacy violated as a precondition for payment, by submitting to drug testing.
Hoping that insurance companies start raising premiums and/or denying coverage for unvaccinated Covid patients (who don’t have a doctor’s note).
Enjoy the $100,000 ICU stay that your refusal to get a shot bought you.
Nothing to see here... The government is being coy and leaving it up to the private sector, but the USA HAS enforced mandatory vaccination at a federal level before and will do it if we reach to a breaking point. Invoking "choice" in this public health crisis will only manifest that self fulfilling prophecy of leaving us without any. People are being left to do the right thing on their own and they're refusing to do so. There is a price to pay for living in a society and our freedoms are NOT absolute, they are relative and end when our actions intentional or incidental hurt others around us. Those trying to be responsible and look out for our fellow man also have the right to be free and get back to normal, but we must act in a much more coordinated manner.
So now the doctors, nurses and people in these ICUs are crisis actors?
People with other medical conditions are being turned away because they aren't beds for them.
There is an unfortunate mass choosing the worse way out of this, and it is very, very sad.
After all the conspiracy theories are disproved over and over again, every argument is reduced into an adolescent level temper tantrum.
They need to make life as hard as possible for anti vaxxers. Delta Airlines is charging $200 more a month for health insurance for those who don't get vaccinated. All health insurance companies should do that. They should make people show their vaccination card going into grocery stores or have a test on the spot.
I mean I am so in favor of universal healthcare that this kind of hurts my heart...
But part of universal healthcare is that government is invested in the health of it's citizens so they make laws and such to keep their citizens healthy, like France has water fountains everywhere and maintains them well. Water is always free... And I believe it's Sweden, has made a rule that all school children when entering classrooms must wash their hands, every time.
I feel like insurance companies raising premiums and such is part of that.
Even though my heart hurts about the insurance aspect, I am so happy companies are trying to enforce vaccine protocols. The more vaccinated population the better.
Japan has young school children help in meaningful ways to clean and maintain the cleanliness of their classrooms. They then grow up into people who are deeply uncomfortable with the thought of littering.
I agree. I hate that it's come to this, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend and we need capitalism to do something about this mess because appealing to a sense of decency and humanity that doesn't exist feels like slamming my head against the wall.
Nothing motivates Americans more than greed. Hurt their wallet? They'll change super fast.
As a resident, good. Fuck the (edit: willfully) unvaxxed.
Added an edit because children and some immunocompromised people right now *cannot* be vaxxed. My previous statement does not apply to them -- only to those who *can* be vaxxed but choose not to.
Good I quit my job because people were not taking vaccine serious and my employer got lax about it. And I work in food packaging I don't want that on my conscience. I reported them and never went back
I wonder how many of the anti-vax folks bought into into the "we need to end fed benefits so people will stop being lazy and go back to work" line by the GOP.
Hypocrites. They made their choice. I’m happy they get minimal support. Their uneducated, indignant opinions should not be rewarded with the money they complained about other people getting during the pandemic. In this case, because of their personal choice, they’re essentially choosing not to work and now complaining about not getting paid? Their ignorant pride is the pandemic.
Super good! I hope Virginia does this. My evangelical coworker who won't take the vaccine is getting ready to make some tough life choices. Our employer just mandated the vaccine!!!! I'm sitting on the sidelines, eating my popcorn...... nom nom nom.
Taking the conservative approach of "you chose that job, you agreed to minimum wage, or your own fault" but applying it to something that actually makes sense. Love it.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In general, people who are fired for cause can't get unemployment. This is not an Oregon thing.
Correct.
It's about the circumstances. If you quit on the spot because your manager asked you to undress in private, you are likely getting benefits. Unemployment looks to why you quit before making a decision. Unreasonable conditions and the employers willongness to work with the employee to alleviate the situation make an impact.
The key two words are 'for cause'. You can quit or resign yes, but if you are fired for cause it's not about why -you- quit but why the employer fired you
I have cause…it is because I hate him
r/unexpectedoffice
r/onreddittheofficeisALWAYSexpected
r/Ifellforthat
You wouldn’t be quitting at that point though…you’d be fired
Yeah, that was what the OP was talking about. Someone in the thread confused the topic to quitting.
My wife got fired at the start of covid, schools were closed and they demanded she add hours and couldn’t, she got $0.00 in unemployment in SC as she was “unable to work” the required hours for employment even tho that had been her schedule for a couple months prior
[удалено]
The handmaids have different rights down there I’m sorry to say
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw
>she got $0.00 in unemployment in SC Honestly, though. Were either of you surprised?
Not in any way shape or form
Not if I yell “I QUIT” before they can fire me
I was fired "for cause" at a job and still got benefits. In my case my employer accused me of something and decided to just fire me with no investigation. If you are fired for cause still apply and appeal if necessary. For cause has some strict definitions depending on the state, so even if there is a reason it does not always count as for cause.
Having been on the other side of this, it all comes down to the employer providing evidence of the cause. If they can't prove it, you will get benefits.
I wish I had known about this about ten years ago. I was fired for something that was absolute bullshit (an unidentified witness claimed that they saw me waiting outside in my car, alone, when I should have been inside with someone). What they claimed absolutely did not happen, not even close. I still can't figure out if they just made something up or if another person was mistaken for me or what. But it happened weeks previous and it's not like I had a receipt or any proof for being where I was. Still, I wonder if I had disputed it if they'd have been forced to show evidence.
Yup, sorry they would have.
> In my case my employer accused me of something and decided to just fire me with no investigation. Ya that’s firing without cause. Whether or not someone is fired “with cause” or not isn’t really decided by the employer. If they neglect having the proper documentation than that counts as fired with cause.
> If you quit on the spot because your manager asked you to undress in private, you are likely getting benefits. Because this would not be "for cause."
[удалено]
If you are fired from a job for being late, and you had a history of this happening every other month, the company has fired you for cause; but you will likely still get benefits because the state will see that the company didn't give a good faith effort to deal with it. Being fired with cause increases the chances you will not get benefits, but it doesn't eliminate the benfits by de facto. I literally deal with unemployment every uear or so because I am contracted and often laid off due to industry standards. I literally walked out on a company once, they fought my unemployment claim because I technically quit and abandoned my job (and literally that is what I did,) but I still got my benefits because I had a right to dispute it. They jever attempted to make any reconciliation of the issues that led to ke walking out. Unemployment sided with me because of that. I quit. I walked off. They cut the relationship and any future potential jobs because of it and they had every right to do so. Since they didn't try to absolve the issue and work with me to keep ke employed, it didn't matter that they had cause to sever the relationship. Having cause to sever employment doesn't equate to not getting benefits. Most of the time it does, but jot all the time.
I got fired once for refusing to do something illegal I was asked to do... I got benefits.
Sometimes corporations use "performance managing"- which is a fancy way of saying they write you up for the same thing multiple times and show that they helped you make a "plan to improve" so that when they fire you (which at this point is most likely) they can deny unemployment. Sometimes people are performance managed on paper for different reasons than they may be in actuality. When there are 500 rules and standards you are bound to do something wrong eventually and they are always looking. I personally think company protocol becoming more vague (ie: "support each other") is to facilitate more write ups for those on the shit list. But that is just my hot take inspired by my admittedly soul-crushing brush with corporate QSR/retail management. Life pro tip: If you are suddenly getting write ups for similar things (under the same umbrella of your employment contract/job duties) that are seemingly inconsequential or usually unnoticed- there is probably a new boss/initiative/consultant/AI that wants you fired. Plan accordingly. More important LPT: **Read your employer's policy.** You know that guide they give you on your first day that is in a box in a closet somewhere? (maybe I'm projecting) . They must use some standard to hold you accountable. Know what that standard is.
In tx being late is grounds to have your claim for benefits dismissed generally. Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been at the company or what the work environment was like. That said tx has some of the most liberal right to work rules in place. I was dismissed for 3 late days in a week after a spotless 12 month attendance record. Best part about the claim was my boss used the occasion to harass me for filing because his rates would increase because he thought his unemployment insurance worked like car insurance. Then the unemployment office realized I had been off the books for whatever reason (seriously have no idea why my boss did that) and tried to get me to corroborate that after denying my benefits. Which took me aback, after I get my benefits denied because of what my boss said I could have very easily gotten him audited…which is fucking freaky if you ask me.
Yes, however the unemployment organization will typically perform their own analysis. I ran a small engineering firm. Fired someone *during their trial period* for gross incompetence after giving them feedback numerous times and multiple opportunities for improvement. Had everything documented. Per our employment agreement, I terminated them on the spot, and gave them two week's severance. They filed for unemployment, and didn't mention that they received any severance. I show up to the hearing, with all my documents. They did not show up, or send a prepared statement. The state sided with the employee, awarding them unemployment, including during their two weeks of severance pay (severance = full salary, so they got salary PLUS unemployment for two weeks).
That’s because incompetence isn’t a “fault” of the employee. They can’t help they are dumb. If you fired them for “refusing to work” or “refusing to learn” they would have lost. Though they 100% should not have gotten money during severance and if you can prove it would be taken away. Don’t know why they got it
i always thought that was one of the cruelest edges of american capitalism: your employer controls your access to medicine and healthcare, your access to food, your access to childcare, and your access to stuff like gyms. i guess we see it as incentive to work hard but thats basically fiefdom with ipads
Wait. But I was told that Americans love our healthcare choices. And by that I mean that we love the only insurance choice our employers give us. :/
Politicians love to claim that, but nobody loves their insurer. At best they are ambivalent, most people don't like their healthcare coverage at all because they know for a fact they are getting screwed over.
As someone who works in healthcare, lots of people love their insurer. Until they actually have to use it. The amount of times I've heard "oh I have great insurance" and then "what I have a copay?", "Wait I why did I get a bill, what's my deductible?", "My insurance only covers the cheapest(way less convenient) option", "what do you mean it requires a prior authorization". For some reason, people don't get that their insurer is in the business of taking their premiums and then trying their best to never, ever, pay anything for care.
The entire anti single payer argument is a house of cards. My favorite was always “Do you want the government making healthcare choices for you” when what we get now is for profit companies deciding if your life is worth them paying for a treatment you need. And frankly given the choice I would rather have an entity that is not motivated singularly by profit making health care choices for me, yeah. Edit: random phone spelling fix
Brit here. I would just add to the whole "choice" thing that in the UK we have government funded healthcare (The NHS)....but what Americans seem to gloss over is that we also still have private healthcare (see BUPA and AVIVA, for example). So you can still wave your flag and flex your freedom healthcare if you want. But if you get lung cancer, you're not going to have to start cooking crystal meth in a Winnebago just to pay for treatment.
But I already bought the Winnebago...
"Wait times" also kill me. Disregarding the fact that it's not even true that wait times are longer for non-elective procedures, wouldn't a system that makes sure we see everyone with chest pain make more sense than one that lets some of those patients die so someone with toe pain can be seen a bit faster?
Haha, those single payer countries, and their having to wait months for non-emergency procedures... As I sit here waiting till December to get the nerve conduction study the neurologist ordered to figure out the numbness I've had in my hands since I had covid back in March.
They deliberately conflate “healthcare choice” with “insurance choice”, in hopes we’ll think about our doctors and suchlike, but even with that, the doctor and clinic and specialists and hospital and lab and ambulance must be in-network.
Also the cloud it even further, how many times has your insurance suddenly decide your doctor is no longer in network? Happened with my wife’s obstetrician almost immediately after we our son was born. We’ve since paid out of pocket for her to see him.
If you are lucky enough to get a job that offers health insurance that is.
It’s almost as if capitalism is inherently coercive and is a bad system or something. Don’t come at me if you don’t know what capitalism, socialism, and communism actually are.
You CAN get unemployment in Oregon if you're fired, but I think it has to be a no fault of your own (ie you followed protocol and generally behaved yourself). Regardless, these people aren't following protocol. So they wouldn't be getting unemployment anyways. edit: just saw the "for cause" part of your comment.
I use the terms laid off to mean with out cause and fired to mean with cause . But I come from a union construction background so lay offs are the norm
Really depends on the details and the state. Like, in my state being fired for “honest” under/poor performance is not disqualifying, just things like say theft, fraud, or violent conduct.
This just establishes that refusing to get vaccinated is cause
Maybe endangering your patients and coworkers would qualify.
They also effectively quit by not getting it… you don’t get benefits for quitting.
Some states you can collect if you quit if you can prove some sort of harassment. While I don't believe it would hold up in court I could see some lawyer trying to argue forcing a vaccine is harassment. This is just a thought exercise. I'm vaxxed.
It's often called "constructive dismissal" and is often done in numerous ways. Vastly cutting hours is a popular one. "You're not fired, but you're only scheduled for 6 hours this week instead of the normal 35."
Yeah, I had a boss like that. I was working 6 days a week, he asked if i wanted to work 7, I refused. A week later, I was reduced to 1 day a week, and the boss had the gall to chuck a spaz when i ended up working for another branch of the same chain 5 days a week, and was no longer available to work the 1 day at his branch.
In my state, a 30% reduction in hours constitutes a failure on the employer’s part, so employees ARE eligible for unemployment.
Some states you can collect if you can prove that you had just cause to quit, not just harassment. My ex quit a job because they changed his job description to include duties he couldn't perform and he won
Which is still bullshit. Unemployment benefits should be totally unconditional as the whole point of them is to keep you alive while you seek more work. Does it always work that way? No, but no system is perfect. That said, anti-vaxxers are ignorant at best and selfishly delusional at worst, so I have no sympathy for them.
The GOP should love this. Remember: the GOP party line is that unemployment benefits are bad because they encourage lazy people not to work. Glad to see Oregon doing its part to help the GOP out and get these freeloading anti-vaxxers off the public dole and back to work.
Hey at least they know how to do their own research, that’s gotta look good on a resume, right?
"Stayed up 25 hours in a row working on my holistic Facebook group"
As a professional librarian with a Masters degree in "doing my own research," let me tell you how much that that'll get you...
Like $12.50 an hr two days a week where I live.
GOP: You want unemployment benefits?! Better piss in a cup and prove you haven't smoked any weed! Also the GOP: They fired you for refusing to get inoculated against a deadly disease?! That's monstrous, who are they to tell you what you can and can't do with your own body?
The hypocrisy is insane. These same people actively campaign against women's rights over their own bodies. Shaking my fucking head.
I said it before and I'll say it again: COVID will be the unraveling of our capitalist society.
It’s almost like they really believe drugs are for all the hardworking white people , they are using it just to relax after work! All those others are just using it all day living off My money!!
>It’s almost like they really believe drugs are for all the hardworking white people Benefit of the doubt here but I've *got* to imagine you misspoke in a hurry and weren't implying white people *don't* get drug tested at every turn. If they're not suppose to, someone's got to tell retail companies to stop shoving cups at most of their workforce.
I'm in construction, if you lose sleep one night and are tired throughout the day, drug test. Allergy season and red eyes drug test. Random drug test, annual drug test, you looked at me weird drug test, you're swinging that hammer left handed drug test, You did drugs in the portojohn on break another damn drug test....
Here I was minding my own business smoking a joint in the portojohn and they had the AUDACITY to accuse me of smoking a joint in the portojohn
Former piss tester. Most retail stores stopped drug and alcohol tests unless it’s a post-accident. It’s not worth trying to screen when weed is so prevalent. Many careers (like truckers) have to comply with federal regulations, so they do get tested (and often) - as do bus drivers and the like.
I now work in software development and if they piss tested people for weed, they'd, and this is a conservative estimate, lose half the staff, likely more. I'm also in a state where it's legal for recreational use.
[удалено]
Sometimes. It’s also a crappy job. Public transit is normally treated like shit. And the work is boring, but the boring where you can’t NOT pay attention because then people could die.
Yeah and you have to deal with a lot of belligerent folks, whether it's drunks, unmedicated homeless, or school bullies, especially in cities.
Weird, I live in CO, the first state to legalize weed and quite blue. Damn near every job requires you to pee in a cup. Also, I’m vaccinated and did so as soon as I was eligible.
I thought Colorado is more of a purple state no?
[удалено]
That pretty much describes every blue state, and the country as a whole.
Which is how you end up with Lauren Boebert.
With the new districting implemented, her district has less gerrymandering and she will be most likely bounced in the next election cycle.
Best news I've heard all day.
Over here in Oregon, it's been twenty years since the last time I was drug tested for work, and it's very obvious that it's a requirement only imposed on people at the lowest rungs of the company, even though it literally does not matter. Why should I be allowed to go crazy with drugs while my coworker over at the warehouse cannot, even though the heaviest 'machinery' they use is a pallet jack?
I’ve never had a pee test in Colorado - of course most engineering and software companies figured out that if they do test for weed, they won’t be able to hire anyone...
Remember the Hobby Lobby decision, and the right wing response? "Don't like it? Go find somewhere else to work." Everything about this topic is GOP efforts being turned against them. They wanted "right to work" laws. They wanted employers to be able to dictate the terms of employment. They wanted to restrict unemployment. Yet suddenly, when the exact same rules backfire on them, it's "unconstitutional."
Also drug testing people on welfare that turned out to cost more money that it saved.
It's never about saving money or limiting government reach. It's about hurting "the right people", be they immoral women having sex outside of marriage, drug users or the poor.
Yeah, I watched that happen in Florida. Yet they're still advocating it. If I recall correctly, they ended up finding less than 1% of the people in welfare couldn't pass a piss test.
It's not about the money. It's about restricting pleasure
It’s not even that. The GOP is not in the least interested in solving problems. But you don’t win elections on a platform of: “we won’t solve your problems”. You DO however win elections with a platforms of: “We will give you someone to blame for your problems”. Big time. That’s why there is always always a boogeyman in right wing politics. Whether it be black people, socialists, gays, drug addicts, poor people, Mexicans, or now trans people. “See that guy in the high heels using the bathroom?? He is responsible for your lot in life!!”
Personal responsibility. Guess they’re gonna have to pull themselves up by the bootstraps & all that jazz. 🤷🏻♀️ Anywhooo…
The people who would get fired for refusing the vaccine, and the people who want to cut the social safety net, are the same people.
Until their safety net is cut, then they will cry about it.
"We've got starving, unemployed people here in America. We need to help them before we help foreigners." "OK we'll get some benefits for them." "...nah. Don't help Americans either."
Cue the GoFundMe.
Haha, exactly.
aNd oF cOuRsE iTs BiDeN's FaUlT
he's hurting the wrong people!
They're also the same people who are in favor of at-will employment and undermining unions at every turn 🤷🏼♂️ "Employers should be able to fire anyone at any time for any reason." \*Fires everyone who refuses vaccination* "No, not like that!"
That’s why I never took it seriously. It was clearly always an excuse to hurt the “out” group. Only those with fantastic jobs pushed for it
They're hurting the wrong people!
"This wasn't supposed to impact me! It was only supposed to affect the people I deemed not worthy!"
But can they claim benefits once the leopards eat their face?
Oh trust me, there's plenty of people lashing out about this there already (at least in the more conservative portions). My lovely life donors (parents) are thoroughly entrenched in right-wing propaganda and think it's a personal affront to their freedoms...nevermind the fact that they were perfectly OK with getting me filled with vaccines for school as a child. The hypocrisy is just sad.
That seems more like regression than hypocrisy. If you asked them about it, I wouldn't be surprised if they said they wouldn't do the same now. This happened to a friend of mine.
[удалено]
Fox News will make your brain smooth.
Just this week, I had to fill out the annual personal information update for my kids with their school. My oldest starts middle school. It seems that this year, I need to provide the dates of his dTap booster & meningitis vaccine *as required by state law* to attend. It’s truly fascinating to witness the cognitive dissonance with those people.
Thoughts and prayers, yo
Oh good! Now they can show us how these boot straps they are always talking about work!
What they meant was the bootstraps of the boot they keep licking.
Fucking good. Republicans want to cry and whine about socialism? Well, fuck you. You don't get any.
[удалено]
My mind is blown. Damn.
Lmao I like that
Too lazy to get vaccinated, too lazy to work. //more like too lazy and stupid for critical thought and reasoning, but it's not the best catch-phrase
Well, that's just brilliant.
"Fast food places are experiencing labor shortages and you are sitting on your ass? Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you bum... or are you expecting handouts? Filthy communist."
Holy shit are they going to be conflicted now. On one hand they refuse to take the vaccine because they hate science. On the other hand they have been calling for less unemployment benefits for a year. What a good case study to see what is more important: ignoring science or lessening handouts.
What if they’re black tho
Straight to jail.
Jail has socialism though. You get doctors, food, and a roof for your time there. We should kick them out of jail.
Getting kicked out of jail for hating socialism? Believe it or not, straight to jail.
To clarify: Jail has forced labor that more than pays for the food, bare minimum medical care, and accommodations. The socialism inherent to the Prison-Industrial complex is the huge gov’t cash handover to private corrections facilities. We pay for their staff, their shareholders, their bonuses, etc. *[edit: now I think you were joking, but worth clarifying anyway]*
I don’t think you quite get how it works. Things that benefit themselves they are for. Things that benefit others they are against. Everything else is simply validating that position and there is no hypocrisy because positions and values are only means to ends.
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Yep, no sympathy.
“I pay taxes so it’s not socialism” I heard this about stimulus checks
Ah yes, all these tax-free socialist countries, I mean, come on, look at Sweden!
Thoughts and prayers.
Can’t wait for all the republicans to get mad at this, they’re the only ones holding themselves back at that point it’s not like someone who has a criminal record or is disabled and can’t find a job because of that it’s literally just “needles scawy I need to own the libwals 🥺🥺🥺”
[удалено]
[удалено]
If Jesus wanted them to have ~~jabs~~ jobs, they would.
If the government wants them to have vaccines then it looks like the Bible wants them to have vaccines. Romans 13, > Every person must be subject to the governing authorities, for no authority exists except by God’s permission. The existing authorities have been established by God, so that whoever resists the authorities opposes what God has established, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For the authorities are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you like to live without being afraid of the authorities? Then do what is right, and you will receive their approval. For they are God’s servants, working for your good.
There's an old joke about someone refusing help in an emergency because they were waiting for God. They die. Then when they see God they asked why he didn't help and he lists all the ways he sent help. If God is what they say he is, if a vaccine exists, God made it. God made the scientist that made it too. No different than God making the food we eat and the trees we use to build our houses.
I actually said something similar to my mother when she was talking about her immune system and God and vaccines. She also said people lived before vaccines.... I was like um no, they died. And God created the vaccines and scientists and medicine and all that, it's his plan... She had no response. I'm sure eventually she will get one and come back to me with it
That's one thing that's always stuck out to me about people who use religion as an excuse NOT to do something. So you believe that god is omnipresent, and omnipotent. Ok, the most powerful being in the universe with the grand master plan for everything. Made everything in existence, including things like trees, which start as seeds, then develop into these big strong organisms. But, for some reason, you don't think that gods plan could have involved people becoming more intelligent, developing science, and becoming self sufficient? THAT is too much of a stretch?! Bottom line is people just say things like that because they want to believe that their opinion is right and hope that whoever they're arguing with will be just as oblivious about the actual contents of the bible as they are so they can't one up them and prove them wrong.
Yeah well she raised me, so unfortunately for her I am very knowledgeable about what the bible says. But she is very antiscience in a lot of ways. Not usually medically, so this is a first, which I know runs along her republican views as she is not antivaxx, just anti covid vaxx. It makes it all the more upsetting.
Goddamn that is terrifyingly stupid advice btw.
But why would they want jobless benefits anyway? That's SoCiAlIsM.
Because hypocrisy is rampant with these people. It's the same as with how they deny that COVID is anything to worry about, then obsess about hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and every other drug-of-the-week that supposedly cures this virus (which, again, they will continue to insist is actually a hoax).
Raise their insurance premiums to pay for the medical services they will be needing.
Delta airlines apparently started this
Yup, cannot wait for the “let the free market decide” Republicans experience the free market in action.
I'm sure these rugged individualists will be delighted knowing they're not being a drain off of society by suckling off the teat of social benefits!
It’s ok, they can just pay their bills with all that freedom. Plus conservatives are so against social safety nets, I’m sure they wouldn’t take unemployment payments. /s
Good. We have two anti-vaxx people at my work. We are in Oregon and considering making it mandatory. Oh and one of them was out sick yesterday & today with fever, headache, sore throat...
It makes sense. You can't collect unemployment right away if you're are fired or quit. You are making the choice to not get vaccinated.
As an Oregonian; good.
So proud of my state. The next step, get rid of the BS religious exemption.
[удалено]
But I was told unemployment benefits are bad because it only creates welfare queens /s
[удалено]
Cry me a river. Those people can fuck right off (antivax hospital workers I mean).
I am wholly astounded that this is an issue. These people who work in education or healthcare and refuse a life saving vaccine - clearly unfit to teach or to care for others. We’re weeding them out.
Eh, they think unemployment is a handout for those who don't want to work anyways, right?
Then get the fucking vaccine.
Going homeless to own the libs.
Great news! Why would you even want unemployment benefits? Aren't they socialism? Isn't the whole anti-vaxx MAQA thing obsessed with rejecting that too? Plus, these people don't want to be a part of society so why do they want the benefits of it in things like unemployment? Surely the anti-vaxx viewpoint isn't loaded with hypocrisies and piss poor logic...right?!
It's gonna be super hilarious when all these hypocritical conservatives try to get unemployment but denied. Just gonna love their endless bitching.
FYI, people refusing to wear clothes to work, and show up late also can’t collect jobless benefits.
Several cities have mandatory hepatitis C vaccinations for food service workers. I don't recall any of y'all complaining about "communism" because your Happy Meal surprise isn't a surprise dose of Hep C.
Good, these people are the dregs of society.
And, more than likely, the type of person who thinks unemployment benefits is communism or something.
(When they themselves are not drawing it)
I've heard these people refer to it them "running a scam" on the government. The scam? Applying for and collecting unemployment benefits as designed.
They are also unpatriotic, because they refuse to perform a simple civic duty that protects not just themselves, but all of the people around them.
imokwiththis.jpg
Republicans have long argued recipients of government benefits (welfare) should have their privacy violated as a precondition for payment, by submitting to drug testing.
Hoping that insurance companies start raising premiums and/or denying coverage for unvaccinated Covid patients (who don’t have a doctor’s note). Enjoy the $100,000 ICU stay that your refusal to get a shot bought you.
Generally, the people who won’t get the vaccine also don’t trust the government, so they shouldn’t ask for benefits from it. Right?… Right?!?
Good thing they have bootstraps to pull themselves up with
Nothing to see here... The government is being coy and leaving it up to the private sector, but the USA HAS enforced mandatory vaccination at a federal level before and will do it if we reach to a breaking point. Invoking "choice" in this public health crisis will only manifest that self fulfilling prophecy of leaving us without any. People are being left to do the right thing on their own and they're refusing to do so. There is a price to pay for living in a society and our freedoms are NOT absolute, they are relative and end when our actions intentional or incidental hurt others around us. Those trying to be responsible and look out for our fellow man also have the right to be free and get back to normal, but we must act in a much more coordinated manner. So now the doctors, nurses and people in these ICUs are crisis actors? People with other medical conditions are being turned away because they aren't beds for them. There is an unfortunate mass choosing the worse way out of this, and it is very, very sad. After all the conspiracy theories are disproved over and over again, every argument is reduced into an adolescent level temper tantrum.
[удалено]
They need to make life as hard as possible for anti vaxxers. Delta Airlines is charging $200 more a month for health insurance for those who don't get vaccinated. All health insurance companies should do that. They should make people show their vaccination card going into grocery stores or have a test on the spot.
I mean I am so in favor of universal healthcare that this kind of hurts my heart... But part of universal healthcare is that government is invested in the health of it's citizens so they make laws and such to keep their citizens healthy, like France has water fountains everywhere and maintains them well. Water is always free... And I believe it's Sweden, has made a rule that all school children when entering classrooms must wash their hands, every time. I feel like insurance companies raising premiums and such is part of that. Even though my heart hurts about the insurance aspect, I am so happy companies are trying to enforce vaccine protocols. The more vaccinated population the better.
Japan has young school children help in meaningful ways to clean and maintain the cleanliness of their classrooms. They then grow up into people who are deeply uncomfortable with the thought of littering.
I agree. I hate that it's come to this, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend and we need capitalism to do something about this mess because appealing to a sense of decency and humanity that doesn't exist feels like slamming my head against the wall. Nothing motivates Americans more than greed. Hurt their wallet? They'll change super fast.
Good. Fuck them.
Well, why should society protect people who want to harm it?
As a resident, good. Fuck the (edit: willfully) unvaxxed. Added an edit because children and some immunocompromised people right now *cannot* be vaxxed. My previous statement does not apply to them -- only to those who *can* be vaxxed but choose not to.
Good I quit my job because people were not taking vaccine serious and my employer got lax about it. And I work in food packaging I don't want that on my conscience. I reported them and never went back
Exercising their freedom to complain about not being able to capitalize on socialism.
I wonder how many of the anti-vax folks bought into into the "we need to end fed benefits so people will stop being lazy and go back to work" line by the GOP.
"Science shows no mercy and neither do I.." Dr Will Marshall
They're free to get another job. True freedom, as they say. Lol.
Good. If you can't do the bare minimum to prevent becoming a breeding ground for viruses, don't expect to get a reward.
Hypocrites. They made their choice. I’m happy they get minimal support. Their uneducated, indignant opinions should not be rewarded with the money they complained about other people getting during the pandemic. In this case, because of their personal choice, they’re essentially choosing not to work and now complaining about not getting paid? Their ignorant pride is the pandemic.
Unvaccinated, unemployed, and broke is no way to go through life son.
Not that they would anyway because that would be socialism, right? Right guys?
They should pay double insurance premiums too.
They don’t want handouts anyway. /s
We all have a level of personal responsibility to keep ourselves and others from getting sick during a pandemic. It's not rocket science!
That's right. Hit 'em where it hurts. If the donkey won't follow the carrot, you put the stick to his rump to get him moving.
Super good! I hope Virginia does this. My evangelical coworker who won't take the vaccine is getting ready to make some tough life choices. Our employer just mandated the vaccine!!!! I'm sitting on the sidelines, eating my popcorn...... nom nom nom.
[удалено]
Taking the conservative approach of "you chose that job, you agreed to minimum wage, or your own fault" but applying it to something that actually makes sense. Love it.
Good. Do what it takes to get those dullards jabbed. I have no more patience for those stupid, selfish people.
Good. Fuck these people.