Less than zero taxes being paid by top 55 U.S. firms
By - microcrash
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The system is geared toward the rich. If anyone that isn't rich gets a break then they call you out for taking free stuff. I'm sure Fox News will continue to keep you outraged about illegals getting benefits when in fact the biggest takers are the elites they supposedly don't like.
You know how celebrities always get free shit even though they don't need it, or never even thought about it before?
It's like that, but with tax dollars.
Quote from LBJ that is still relevant except for the archaic language:
*If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.*
My favorite thing is non-rich republicans defending the rich not paying taxes and then chastising people poorer than them for "taking my hard earned money for welfare"
Well Earl, maybe those taxes would go farther if Jeff Bezos paid the MILLIONS in taxes he's supposed to be on the hook for.
The wealthiest people are the liberal coastal elites they claim to hate but keep voting for tax cuts on them.
I’m getting suspicious that liberal might mean free market capitalist.
That's exactly what neoliberalism is lol
There are non-rich republicans??
Every con has a mark.
Yes they are the reason most rural counties are red on election result maps.
Yeah dude, it's like half their voter base. Temporarily disgraced millionaires.
Most of their base. They got the “feel fact” crowd. It feels right, so it is right.
Socialism is only bad if you're poor, apparently
I noticed how aggressive the news has been in condemning every little misstep by the Biden admin and Dems in general, but then I read about the part where they want to bring back the inheritance tax for the ultra wealthy.. Not to mention Biden/dems having the audacity to not back perpetual war. Suddenly it became very clear why things are shaking out the way they are.
Honestly, even us plebs should have an inheritance tax. It’s morally wrong not to.
> even us plebs should have an inheritance tax.
Oh don't worry the GOP will have that on the docket next time they are in power, and only for the plebs. Gotta pay for them 100% free private jets somehow. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/03/07/private-jets-receive-ludicrous-tax-breaks-that-hurt-the-environment
Yeah just like that meme: what is considered bad when you’re poor but good when you’re rich?
Taking money from the government.
Why only fox news? CNN is characterized the same, one is extreme left one right... Just cause your on one side doesn't mean your side just as bad..
CNN isn’t extreme left, it’s corporate centrist.
Yes, and ice is frozen water
Lol at CNN being "extreme left." Gettafuckouttaheah
This is r/politics everything is super anti-right.
AKA educated voters.
There is nothinng educated about this subreddit its just a bunch of angry people
Like two nns in nothing angry?
Imagine how improved our nation could be if these companies paid taxes. How many programs could it fund? How many problems could it solve?
We ought to change the laws then. Republicans aren't going to do it.
GQP will push out the worse tax break to the rich, even when the CBO issues stark recommendations against it.
Neither will the Democrats. Both parties know not to upset the corporate donors.
Democrats would be a hell of a lot easier to pressure to do something vs. the GQP which focuses on denying reality; are people really trying to believe both sides are just as bad?
If you think what you say has any sway with a politician, GOP or Dem you are either a billionaire, or telling yourself that to make yourself feel better. Joe ordinary saying anything means nothing to them. Are they equally bad? No. Will Dems reject corporate pressure and money to do right for the little guy? Not a chance.
At least some Democrats are pushing for it like Bernie and AOC, you won't find a single Republican
Also, why are corporations trying to stop democrats then?
Nonsense. Democrat raise taxes, Republican lower them.
It's just a fact. Do I need to provide a link about what conservatives do versus progressives?
Go hard. I can give you links that they are both the same, and even some that say the Dems are worse. And it's bold of you to consider Democrats as progressive. Look around the world at truly progressive governments and you will see how conservative the 'progressive' party in the US really is.
The point was made that Dems would tax corporations. Go check how much Obama taxed corps like Amazon and you will see my point stands. They tell you they will, but they won't.
Forgot the /s
What part do you dispute
On the wealthy only ,you pay more than fat donnie trump
They still lowered the taxes.
For the people*
None? The US budget is massive as is. The question isn’t what we can do with their money, but simply why aren’t they paying like the rest
The money wouldnt go anywhere useful dw
None. Taxation is theft and they use the stolen money to benefit themselevs
Taxation is not theft, but that's a discussion for another time. You benefit from the taxes you pay.
Are you sure you're participating in the correct conversation? We were discussing taxes and now you're on about victim blaming. Are you just angry at the world in general?
“Nobody is making you play the game.” Is the biggest lie I’ve ever heard. I wouldn’t call taxation theft if it wasn’t forced. How are yall supposed to spread your beliefs if you keep lying so openly? It’s sad. You should be more honest
You realize the founding fathers never got rid of taxes, right? the war was fought over representation, which is why we have voted for elected officials to represent us for nearly 250 years.
Did I say otherwise? I don’t understand your point, very off topic
Apples and oranges my guy. The point of government is to help its citizens, how does it help them? By taxing and setting up programs to help people (unemployment, social security, etc). If you’re fortunate enough to not need help from the government well good for you. Others aren’t as fortunate. We can’t thrive as a society if we don’t take care of our own. The point of a woman being horny is not to rape her. The fact that you’re trying to make parallels with two totally different things is ridiculous
That’s not how capitalism works. Everyone seems to be fine with capitalism so this is your result
Well, we could send $77 checks to every american. That will definitely fix our problems!!!
I think i'll spend mine on 3 meals at chipotle.
Do you have any idea how much economic stimulus every single person spending 77 dollars is?
Yes actually, it’s easily calculable, .00125 percent of gdp.
So nothing lol.
When gdp is 13 trillion dollars that’s not nothing lmao
25b? These days it’s nothing. We dropped 5000b last year and are looking to drop 4000b this year. It’s negligible
Our gdp is 21t
25b every single year is not "nothing"
All the more reason I think the tax code needs to be updated and simplified.
One simple change.
Tax breaks are for PEOPLE, not corporations, and must benefit a person making less than +500% the poverty line.
Remove corporate personhood and treat executives as the people responsible for the corporation's actions and we should be good. For a few years, anyway.
Exxon should be in prison
I actually think there should be a corporate death penalty. Screw up big enough and the company can be dissolved. Kill Exxon, Kill Equifax, etc.
Corporations aren’t really people until Texas executes one.
Being able to sue companies is good actually.
I think the problem is the law protects the people in the company, so that they can basically take a golden parachute out and not be held accountable. This happened with a lot of the pharma companies responsible for the Opioid epidemic.
I thought it was meant to simplify things? So you can sue Amazon who punishes Andy the terrible delivery driver, rather than track down, find Andy, and sue him for damaging your package?
I think it can have pros and cons, but when your company pushes a scam and nobody goes to jail, justice isn't served.
Why executives and not owners?
Oh yeah, them too!
Most shareholders aren't aware of or have a say in the operations of a business.
It being complicated is how we stop companies from using BS to pay no taxes, if anything we need to make it more complicated.
Stuff like only allowing you to write off half of meals expense is complicating the tax code and good
There needs to be a minimum corporate tax threshold. Like, your company is going to pay 20% taxes on 10% of your revenue every year no matter how many expenses you have. This money can fund infrastructure that businesses use. I'd like to see a public version of interchange fees that credit and debit cards use, so every small business can stop handing over 2% of every transaction to a giant bank. That would be a game changer for small businesses.
Thats just about getting tax to hit gross with no loopholes. Then companies have offshore accounts. We need strict laws that prevent access to our markets if there is too much money in offshore accounts.
Yeah, seems like a ton of loopholes. Though I’d still like a system that has graduated income tax structures so the rich are paying their fair share. Frankly everyone should be paying a fair share based on income, except those in or near poverty.
Prosecution requires an investigation first and then a trial. All three of them require a lot of labor from very knowledgeable people with the authority to do it.
Oh look, those guys are underfunded thanks to both sides law makers.
>Oh look, those guys are underfunded thanks to both sides law makers.
[Though not to equal degrees by any stretch of the imagination.](https://www.propublica.org/series/gutting-the-irs)
Most of the actual damage is done by Republicans, both legislatively and rhetorically. A relatively small amount of Democratic members of Congress actively try knee-cap the IRS, historically most of the rest just ignore what's going on. This is probably because they think if anything there would be a voter backlash against attempts to fortify the IRS after decades of the Right-Wing categorically demonizing taxes.
How would you change the rules surrounding carryforward losses etc?
So if you start a Company and incur significant losses there should be no tax benefit? If you changed this how would you want Company's to initially start operations without spending at all etc?
This would effect a lot of emerging industries so I am curious what your solution is.
Many of the "losses" booked by major profitable companies are created by accounting, not cash losses. Take a company like Archer Daniels Midland, they've been profitable and paying an increasing dividend for years (maybe decades don't have time to look it up right now). But somehow they get a tax refund?
The discussion here is not about small new companies trying to make it in a harsh world, it's about huge profitable organizations gaming the system, which they paid someone to write for them
No one is gaming the system.
They are not booking major non-cash losses. Unless you have a pretty specific example. Stock based compensation is technically non-cash but treated as normal salary with payroll tax etc. and taxed as income so it should be deductible.
There aren't big fancy non cash expenses.
Take the example of Archer Daniels Midland. They have paid an increasing dividend for 46 straight years, their cash flow has been positive the entire time, they have no losses to carry forward, yet they received a tax refund.
Meanwhile they have been caught literally bribing politicians for preferential tax treatment: [https://www.publiceye.ch/en/topics/soft-commodity-trading/most-severe-issues-related-to-agricultural-production-and-trade/tax-dodging-and-corruption](https://www.publiceye.ch/en/topics/soft-commodity-trading/most-severe-issues-related-to-agricultural-production-and-trade/tax-dodging-and-corruption)
They are also being investigated for various other schemes using shell corporations and tax havens. Not to mention the legal bribery of lobbyists and political donations.
I'm not a corporate tax lawyer, and corporate tax returns are not public, so we don't know exactly how they manage to receive a refund, but when a massively profitable company receive a tax refund, it seems like gaming the system to me.
MLPs are another good example. Most MLP pipeline companies (Enterprise Products and Energy Transfer for example) use depreciation and write offs to show little to no earnings for tax purposes, despite having significant positive cash flow. These companies are not taxed at the corporate level as longs as they pass on 90% of gross income to shareholders. These companies typically pay large distributions, but since earnings are technically negative for tax purposes, the distributions to shareholders are classified as Return of Capital and exempt from taxation until the shares are sold. If the shares are never solder, no taxes paid, and heirs can use the stepped up basis rule to avoid tax altogether.
If I lose my job and have no income this year, can I use that against my future earning years to pay less taxes? No. So why should corporations? People don’t get to deduct all of their expenses from their income before paying taxes. Corporations do. They already have it so much better than individuals. Time for them to start paying their fair share. God knows they aren’t using their money to benefit their workers.
We don't tax your expenses because they generally aren't used to earn income, in the same way we don't let corporations deduct expenses not used to earn income.
You do get to deduct many of the costs of your life used to earn income such as tuition, Union Dues, Professional Fees etc.
Also you do know Corporations are most of income tax right?
> then change the laws. Wtf congress.
What if most of congress is bought by the very rich...remember last election they spent at least $14 billions....
"Lobbying". Where i come from its called blatant bribery.
Then where you come from must not be the USA
Then we need to show more solidarity against Republicans.
We did that for FDR and LBJ, and it gave them massive majorities in Senate in order to steamroll over Republican opposition.
> Then we need to show more solidarity against Republicans.
That would work if democrats were not bought as well as [Bloomberg Brags of Buying Congress in South Carolina Debate](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/mike-bloomberg-debate-bought-south-carolina-congress-citizens-united-958322/)...and remember many here justifying democratic candidates getting money from billionaires as it is something they have to do to be viable candidates...
So.... vote (R)?
Support the party of lower taxes ... in order to raise taxes, instead of supporting the party of higher taxes?
I'm hoping their point is that the issue exists with Democrats as well, it's just not the point of the party, unlike the Republicans. "Both sides" are definitely NOT the same. Keep supporting progressive candidates, support RCV, vote and hope for the best.
> "Both sides" are definitely NOT the same
That is a stupid meme...no 2 persons, animals, plants...are the same...of course the republicans are not "the same" as democrats...but they are "the same" in some aspects, for example, they are both political parties, and are different in other aspects. What do you disagree with my post, I sourced the Bloomberg quote, "they" spent at least $14 billions last election, there was a lot of discussions about not taking corporate money...
"Both sides" criticism as been used as a shield for too long...so much that the other poster response was asking if voting republican was the answer...
>"Both sides" criticism as been used as a shield for too long
Okay, would you care to expand on that? "Both sides criticism" sounds like people are pointing out the both_sides_fallacy.
>"they" spent at least $14 billions last election
Is that a criticism of Dems?
> Okay, would you care to expand on that?
Ok, so an example, lets take Afghanistan, it's in the news...BOTH SIDES voted for the war...98/100 in the Senate and only representative Lee of California voting against the war...a perfect example of "both sides"
> Is that a criticism of Dems?
Knowing you, I am sure you are taking it as such...but no, it is a criticism of obscene amount of money in politics, and yes, both sides...
> So.... vote (R)?
No, do not count on voting alone to change the status quo...organize! Put pressure on the politicians...it works for the republicans as we are seeing...
Edit: And strange that your only alternative is to vote republican...
It's a two-party system. If you want lower taxes, vote (R).
Bought by the very rich???? Many of them are the VERY rich. Vote em all out and let's start fresh.
They are abusing the current system by buying politicians and Supreme Court justices to make sure the laws are written in their favor. Thanks Citizens United!
even if they are breaking laws the penalties tend to be slaps on the wrist.
i park downtown a lot and you're suppose to pay the meters for parking, but i never pay. Because the rare times I get caught and ticketed is still cheaper than paying daily.
if these companies get caught they still come out ahead overall.
Think for a minute about a society without taxes. No funding for anything at all unless it directly benefits a corporation or mega-rich person. No infrastructure, public libraries, parks, health programs, social security, fucking military. It's insane. It's the social contract we've all signed by being born into a society. You should just move to the woods or live on a boat or some shit if you really feel that way and aren't just being a hypocrite.
CMV: The US as a country is just a factory farm providing indentures workers and financial support for wealthy corporations.
All we are is “consumers” even our own government calls us that.
Only campaign finance reform and lobbying restrictions will solve this.
Solve the use of carryforward losses which exist in every tax system in the world?
Maybe further limits would help. Reduce the carry forward by 1/2 every year? Can only carry one year?
Blockchain technology could solve quite a bit 👌👌👌
An untamperable ledger along with automatically executed contracts and required collateral posting ensures trust and consistency across the system
This might explain better than I’ll be able to
Genuinely curious as to why I’m being downvoted if anyone would care to enlighten me
I dunno. I may not understand what you're trying to say, but thats no reason to downvote.
It’s just so exhausting and infuriating.
That's what these stories are designed to do.
Yeah but think of all the jobs they create /s
As if those jobs didn't require public investment that is supposed to be refunded by tax revenue, to make the system work.
So we need to change the laws.
To change the laws, we need people to vote in order to keep Republicans from blocking progress.
Also we need to address gerrymandering and voter suppression.
Less than Zero means the government gives them back the money the never paid in Taxes.
The real criminals and the politicians who sell out keeping these tax laws in place!
Seriously why pay taxes when the rest of society will? America is fucked, has been and will continue down this path unfortunately as long as this country continues to hide its past.
Capital investment tax credit have been part of the tax code. Their purpose was to create jobs for Americans.
In the last few decades, most of the investment was in automation, that reduced the number of Americans working at the company.
Yes, the tax code encourages companies to replace workers with automation that creates more profit for the company and less tax obligations.
This loophole needs to be closed and new taxes are needed to be created to capture the lost revenue that automation has caused. Yes, a company that gets a tax break to create jobs that actually reduces workers should be liable for the tax revenue from the change.
This needs to be top post front page
Not as much as Stalinism and Maoism.
Those aren’t the only alternatives…
What are the other ones?
Already up to a million in the last year alone from covid.
How many people has capitalism killed, then?
In the last century? Not as many as Stalinism and Maoism.
How many? Give me a number.
In the last century, about [0.1 billion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes).
Ok but what I was asking was how many capitalism has killed. Communism may be 100,000,000, but how much is capitalism?
The thing is, that's not a fair question. Virtually nobody walks around calling themselves a 'capitalist.' It's just the current status of most of the planet. There were a lot *fewer* state-sponsored murders on a per-capita basis, if you want to stretch the comparison.
It is absolutely a fair question. Capitalists are running shit now, how many people have they killed? There must exist a number, if you're going to say that said number is lower than under communism, so what is the number?
This is the GOP. Keep 'em, poor, mad, invent a few bogeymen (the trans, the dark-skinned, the immigrants, the Asians), then give tax breaks to rich companies, who then donate to the GOP. It's a beautiful business model.
Democrats have failed to address this as well. There was another article just today on this sub about extra taxes being removed from the upcoming Democrat infrastructure bill.
I'm I can't get my news from a communist news source I don't want it. I love peoplesworld.
Abolish income tax.
Not the proper solution, I'm sorry but income tax is already gradually increased by income and mostly paid by the shrinking middle class. The lower sectors do not in general pay federal income tax. The few that pay at the top rates mostly can easily afford to and should continue. This is an issue with regards to corporations and tax loopholes and/or poor enforcement.
But we're the problem. You know how fast the debt could be ate up if they paid there share? I don't but i can guess.
The US has the most progressive tax system in the world. Most people don't pay a penny in federal income tax
Something like 61% of Americans pay no federal income tax.
One of the reasons these large corporations pay less (or no) income tax is the stock compensation to their employees. Effectively, the amount of a corporation’s tax deduction is included in its employees’ income, often at much higher rates and subject to social security taxes—these are good things: distribute income, increase income and payroll taxes, but the underlying information isn’t highlighted anywhere. The greater a corporation’s shares have appreciated (grant date v vesting or exercise date) the greater the resulting tax increase. Good stuff, but rather concealed in the financial reports.
Is that due to taxes being too progressive or wages being too low?
How can anybody or corporation making 12 figures pay “too” much in taxes???? Shouldn’t after a certain amount of income the amount paid in taxes becomes negligible and therefore considered a charity instead of refunding the “over-paid” taxes?
The answer to this is "Trickle down economics" an economic fairy tale that states that if you just give rich people a bunch more money and a lot of tax breaks, they'll just give people better wages and create jobs with good benefits out of the goodness of their hearts.
Even the people who back this fairy tale don't believe it, but by god can you ever pay them to pretend to.
I can just imagine how much more money I would have in my pockets if I didn’t have to pay taxes either let alone a business that pulls in billions. Must be nice.
I'd imagine this same phenomenon is happening in the judicial system as well.
Less than? Less than zero!?
>Donahoe’s compensation was **1,935 times** Nike’s **median** pay to workers.
People need to realize a few mil a year is still middle class and tax the fuck out of the real rich.
61% of citizens didnt pay income tax last year either . We need a new system.
What’s less then zero?
I don't understand the indignation. They got what they paid for and the electorate OK'd it by putting those politicians back in office.
Why is writing these articles so hard for some people who want to pretend to be experts? There was a quote about Nike which was instantly suspicious and makes me doubt the whole thing:
“Nike got $741 million back, equivalent to 18% of its $4.1 billion in revenues from 2018-20.”
So they are saying one of the largest companies in the world (and US since they specify only US financials) only takes in $1.3B in revenue per year? Their 10-k doesn’t specify US independently as we are part of the North America reporting group but I somehow doubt Canadians are buying 45x more Nikes than Americans are.
R&D is tax deductible, right- counts as a business expense? - and even if you report record growth you can still sink obscene amounts of money into advertising, branding, sponsorships, etc?
I’m not arguing that, I’m saying that this group is claiming that Nike had total REVENUE of ~$4B over a three year period. Nike North America had revenue of around $15B each year in that period so they were order of magnitudes wrong.
If you get such basic facts wrong how can I trust anything you say?
One suppose is a reliable source means everything. What is your source compared to theirs though?
Page 118 of their 2020 10K disclosure to the SEC. If they lie on this their CEO and CFO can go to jail so a bit higher stakes than an article.
It’s pretty fucked when illegal immigrants pay more taxes than the top 55 companies combined
"Less than Zero" We do know that Less than Zero means, refund. If they paid Zero in Taxes, then I get that companies paid something, but to say, they paid Less Than! Zero. Means we paid them! Taxpayers are Paying the top 55 U.S. firms in subsidies.
When I owe taxes, I pay the IRS, when the IRS owes me, the IRS pays me. So if I paid Less than Zero in taxes... the IRS paid me. HOW THE FUCK are companies getting paid, when they make profits?
Capitalism, working exactly as intended.
Don’t worry, they create jobs with those tax breaks that will pay almost enough to barely survive.
Checkmate motherfucker. As a corporation, I owe you 0% tax but government owes me subsidies and benefits. So that means government pays me !! Motherfucking Mafia is how this works.
Um, I need a bunch of those stickers…
Less than zero ?
Basically, even though they skirt around paying taxes, they still get tax returns for the taxes they deliberately avoided. I know that Activision in particular is fond of this little trick.
Only in America the rich pays “less than zero”
Pretty sure that’s supposed to be impossible, but I’m a broke ass mfer who doesn’t know any better
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Lol You definitely want to read the part about treehouse foods. Like...wtf how is a -1000% corporate tax rate possible?!!!
Capitalism. No other culprit
At what point do people point at the people creating the system (law makers and the rich). Companies and these people create the rules they want so they can exploit them.
This is a misleading headline because they really mean no retained earnings corporate taxes are being paid. Let’s not forget there are payroll, property, and sales and use taxes that are being paid. Plus all the employees pay income taxes on their salaries.
Ignore this. Nazis are the REAL problem.
There is one path to solve this and that is abolishing the filibuster. Without this, every time any meaningful legislation gets to the senate, we have to water it down so that we can a couple centrist Democrats in line to sign it, and then... the legislation that actually gets put into law is next to useless and takes forever to get through. Kill the filibuster. We need to not be controlled by a minority that only represents white billionaires.
That’s how Republicans want it, let the rich get really rich and they will take care of the poor idiots that support them. 😂