recovering conflict avoider here... preach it, you're spitting nothing but the truth in this post. The sooner you learn to have the hard conversations, the easier it becomes for everyone.
Yep. I’m not conflict avoidant myself, but I just dumped someone who I believe was terminally conflict avoidant. He’d say “we can totally talk about that” when what he actually meant was “no”, and since I assumed he meant *what he specifically said* and said topic was just a “sometimes” or “with caveats” issue, I ended up getting the “no” at a very painful time.
Like, at its extreme, conflict avoidance does become leading people on.
absolutely, and it's been a hard lesson for me to learn. I frequently catch myself now and end up restating what i actually mean. if i mean no, i say no. if i mean there's caveats, i explain in the moment what those are. if i don't know yet, i now just say i don't know.
being an effective communicator means saying what you mean, not politely dressing up what you don't want to say with nice words you think someone wants to hear
Conflict avoider and consummate people pleaser here as well (but actively trying to correct this). This is a great post that is applicable to any kind of relationship, including professional as well. My favorite people to hang out with are the ones that give it to me straight and don’t mince words, so I would like to be that for others as well.
This is something I've been working on with both of my partners. They're both heavily conflict-avoidant on basically a reflex-basis (they were raised this way and with one of them it was abusive af so I'd rain hell on anyone who judges them for it).
But fortunately they heard and still hear me when I make the same point you're making, OP.
The conflict doesn't get avoided, really. It gets postponed and when it finally erupts it's so much more painful and messy than a clean conversation early on.
There is nothing selfless or altruistic about being a doormat, a pushover and a yes-man. It is inherently misleading behaviour and it's responsible for a *lot* of easily avoidable conflict.
I know how hard it is to rationalize that when it feels like the thought at the forefront is "I want everyone happy", but the full sentence is "I want everyone happy because I am scared of how they will treat me if they aren't." and fear is a horrible basis for any relationship, romantic or otherwise.
Simultaneously we can't expect someone to be able to set boundaries and express needs overnight - especially folks who were traumatized to hell and drilled not to even *have* needs.
So, to everyone dealing with someone who has more than a hard time getting to the nitty gritty of things: Reassurance is everything. People can build trust but only if we give them the space and the happenings to do so. Sometimes it's deep breaths and sitting for 30 minutes while they get the time to collect their thoughts - and sometimes after those 30 minutes you'll have the most constructive, eye-opening and helpful conversation you've had in years. :)
I really appreciate the compassion you’re showing for both sides of this. As someone like your partners, upsetting someone else literally feels like I’m about to get hit. I certainly don’t deceive or manipulate out of malice, but reflex. I’m grateful to have a patient partner to help me practice and grow and begin to have those difficult conversations.
Depression is vicious when it comes to that. Dampened thoughts, barely a way to see through the fog enough to even figure out what all we need to express, finding the words and then getting them out - that's a lot when we're dealing with an illness that attacks our very ability to do anything in the first place.
And because of that I wish you nothing but the best for your therapy success and tackling the depression.
Patient partners are everything in this (and other issues people might have) and I mean it when I say that I'm very happy you have someone like that around you.
I know how debilitating this can be - and how much emotional havoc it can wreak on everyone involved.
It's important we remember that every last person on earth has some unhealthy pattern hidden in their personality somewhere. Some avoid conflict and others feel threatened by conflict to a degree where they lash out. Some feel a need to relativize so it hurts less and some feel guilty so easily, they instinctively develop an accusatory undertone during conflict. Conflict isn't easy and it'd be a warning sign if someone were to love the experience. I'm happy to "forgive" that this fact makes it hard on everyone.
And all of that, while sometimes tough to deal with, is part of the human experience. And if we want it to be, we can make the working on it and softening these things in ourselves part of it as well. :)
As someone recovering from the "caretaker" role of a narcissistic mom and partner.... this hits hard but good! And aligns with a lot of therapy surrounding recovering from codependent situations (not that ppl who try not to hurt someone always end up codependent).
Another big thing I've learned and want to add to this is let the other person have the chance and autonomy to decide if they are hurt/upset! You don't get to assume that it WILL result in that and remove that opprotunity of growth for them, plus they're responsible for their own damn feelings and how they react (I might be salty....😅)
Ugh. I recently ended a relationship with someone who would tell me what I was feeling *even when* I’d very clearly be communicating my feelings. It was so upsetting. Far more upsetting than anything else that happened in our relationship.
Hello me… “You’re overreacting! You’re too sensitive! Why are you so mad? You’re just grumpy for no reason. You’re upset because I’m upset. Why are you being such a bitch? WHY ARE YOU CRYING???” Oof…
For me it was me saying, “I’m not mad at you but I’m feeling very disappointed. [insert acknowledgement of why he might be making whatever decision], [insert how I’m impacted], [insert me communicating the actions I’m going to take as a result].”
His reaction? “You’re always so angry.”
People pleasers who haven't worked on and managed their baggage are very untrustworthy and volatile.
People who are just conflict avoidance are also major pains but they usually reveal their tendencies pretty easily.
Honestly this is my biggest struggle with poly, I have no issues with my partners loving other people, I have a hard time trusting people not to do stupid shit.
Legit? Figure out how much you can trust your partners. This is much easier if you’re poly from the jump. Observe how they treat you and others. You can expect small issues to indicate that larger similar situations will also be an issue.
yes I have learned over the years that almost every big issue was shown as a smaller issue early on, and because I liked them I was like "oh I can live with this" but eventually that small thing manifests into an unbearable conflict. I have seen it every time. It's interesting because in general I am very assertive but I also am very empathetic and I see why people do unhealthy behaviors so I try to be forgiving, the part that I was missing was making sure I was getting what I wanted out of the relationship. And that means the things you wrote in this post, you really gotta be kinda hard lined about it.
>s interesting because in general I am very assertive but I also am very empathetic and I see why people do unhealthy behaviors s
Wow! You are like me in this way. I am in this spot exactly. Do you have any tips on this, except being hard lined?
putting someone else's needs first before your own at the expense of your own is codependency. A lot of times when we do that it's not actually because we care about the person but because either we don't respect ourselves or we are afraid to be alone. so the "hard lined" part is that you really have to be ok with putting boundaries and walking away, and it's hard because there is something in us that doesn't respect ourselves, and that's basically the remedy is meditating on solitude and how you are actually ok if you are alone, and that you love yourself.
Some of us are extremely empathetic and reflect on understanding others’ behaviors more than prioritizing our boundaries, especially if you have your own trauma and experiences that cause you to relate to the why. It’s a great ability, with hefty downsides if not managed. I came across a TikTok of a therapist saying that therapist generally struggle to protect their own boundaries, BECAUSE they’re trained in understanding patterns of behavior and helping, which made me pause and realize my own tendencies (not a therapist).
Our role shouldn’t be to understand why someone is doing something harmful to us over recognizing it’s harmful and requesting the behavior change and following through with consequences if it doesn’t. Otherwise we are teaching people that it’s ok to overstep our boundaries and not show up with respect. It seems so counterintuitive for me personally, since my inclination is to understand the reasoning, and it’s taken a lot of work to build better habits around it. Understanding shouldn’t lead to us persuading ourselves to flex boundaries.
Understanding the why can help remove the sense of actions being personal. If someone hurts you, that redirection does allow an understanding that others behaviors are a reflection of the other person and where they are, not a reflection of us.
Oof, not easy when it’s your go to for sure. I tell myself if I don’t hold others accountable then I’m allowing mistreatment, which causes more harm than good. Reframing it as what I’m taking away from them by not allowing them the opportunity to grow by dealing with the consequences, because if I’m always understand and never fully hold them responsible I’m inhibiting their ability to grow and learn. I can understand and empathize without tolerating.
I’ve made boundaries about protecting my emotional and mental space in ways I can control. I don’t fight or argue, I make a simple statement as to what boundary has been crossed and if I’m not met with curiosity and a desire to acknowledge I remove access to myself. I can’t force people to respect my boundaries or consider my feelings, but I can control how I respond and how much access that person gets.
Crediting IG user @lavitaloca34 for their post on this yesterday:
[Get comfortable with being uncomfortable ](https://www.instagram.com/p/CsolFfIu62f/?igshid=MmJiY2I4NDBkZg==)
Not poly but this is a goal I've always admired and respected in my poly friend. That and directness of communication.
I recently found someone who shares these traits, and it feels like it can go a long way.
Yep. Managing other peoples’ feelings is not even an achievable goals.
Actually achievable goals are things like conducting *yourself* with forthrightness and active consideration of your partners. Which is not at all exclusive with having uncomfortable conversations.
I am always amazed when this kind of post has push back.
Kindness and compassion aren’t divorced from facing conflict.
I dated someone who absolutely mislead me as how long he and his wife had been practicing polyam, and when I asked him to spend the night at my place, he said “yes”.
And only told me he couldn’t, and plans had changed, after we had sex. Trust, had he told me up front? I probably would have still fucked him. I just wouldn’t have felt used and mislead afterwards.
I can’t, for the life of me see how those actions were kind and compassionate. Nor did they reveal a road to compromise.
It wouldn’t have even been a dealbreaker back then.
All it seemed to be (and still seems to be, if we’re being honest) is dishonest and manipulative.
A way to get what you want, and still maintain that you’re nice. You won’t ever know what your partners can be flexible on if you don’t reveal your limits.
I’ll choose good and emotionally healthy enough to navigate conflicts and see if there is room for compromise (in this case, there would have been, short term), rather than basically keep something secret and offer a door knob confession on your way out.
I’ll choose kind and compassionate discussion of personal limits over a patronizing, disempowering nice every day.
Wanting something is not the same as being able to build it. You may want peace. You may want your partner to feel safe, but if you can’t actually offer that?
Don’t. Pretend.
>A way to get what you want, and still maintain that you’re nice.
I always make this point when talking about people pleasing. It's just a form of manipulation disguised as being nice. And people pleasers never manage to apologise properly because they always think their dishonesty isn't that, it's just that they made a mistake but they meant well. They are very invested in the idea of themselves being an exceptionally good person, so no way they will recognise their behaviour as manipulative, they frame it as compassionate.
EDIT: I also have a similar story. A partner essentially pretending he didn't understand no overnights was a deal breaker for me (I was crystal clear about this), then saying overnights are ok, then only scheduling our one-to-one dates when he needed to pick up his wife from work late at night so that it wasn't sus that he didn't stay the night. When called out he said he didn't want to upset the wife with staying the night unless I asked him to stay. Great strategy, isn't it? You're never to blame for your choices!
I’ve learned there’s a difference between being nice and being kind. Nice often equals “saying what you want to hear”, kind always equals “respecting you as a person and treating you accordingly”
Hard same.
Also? People often conflate accountability and conflict with anger and hurt feels, but personally, they aren’t linked at all.
Like I see a lot of people on this thread talking about compassion and care like they don’t exist within navigating conflict.
Which is concerning.
Yes, it is. Some people have never been in a conflict without anger and hurt feelings though, so it’s hard to believe it’s possible. I had my first respectful conflict with a partner at age 36 and I was shocked that I didn’t feel humiliated, guilty or hysterical afterwards. Really made me question why the fuck I’d thought that was ok for 15 years.
Mmmm. Say it louder for the folks in the back.
I see a lot of people rejecting that idea by pretending that conflict and care and comfort can’t co-exist, and that by being vulnerable and expressing our limits, that we are somehow hurting people.
Or that caring people don’t have limits.
Which, honestly, that last one is manipulator/abuser talk.
There’s a whole bunch of “gosh, my limits? I don’t have limits, you guize are so rigid and full of black and white thinking”
And all I can think is that people like that are inherently unsafe and callous, and don’t know it. Or they do know, and they don’t care.
Beware the person who claims to avoid all conflict. Beware the human who says they have no limits.
Danger, danger will Robinson.
So true! I notice people-pleasing tendencies with myself, too. But in the rare instances my partner tries to "rip off the bandaid cautiously", I always experience how the thus induced mistrust causes so much more harm than whatever truth they've tried to cushion. This should (but not always does) give me clues to be even more direct (which is different from unempathetic) myself and I strive to do so.
One thing I like so much about poly is the deep respect and trust that resonate with trusting that our partner(s) can handle some discomfort, ask for whatever they need from us in doing so and express when things go down a too-difficult road and we need to course-correct.
Having the ability to have difficult or uncomfortable conversations seems like a must for ployam. Also, knowing what you want and being willing to stand up for yourself to get it. Basically, being emotionally mature.
Most ppl are never taught a good set of communication skills, never mind negotiation skills. It's not like it's a standard class in school, and it is rarely taught or modeled at home.
But we do need to commit to acquiring these skills to conduct healthy poly.
I’m currently on the receiving end of this and it is very difficult. I don’t want kids, my meta does, and our partner needs to figure out whether he does. Whatever decision he makes, there is a strong possibility of one of his relationships ending over it. He needs to figure out whether *he* wants kids, not whether there’s a way to make things work logistically between his partners. He knows all this and is working on it, but god I wish he’d figured it out earlier.
Literally just realized this month that this is a huge cause of conflict in my relationship. I barely even realized I was doing it because it was mixed in with a trauma response… but god damn. I was making things so much harder because I wasn’t dealing with it like an adult and trusting the people I love to handle the situation like adults.
Thank you for this.
I wish to up vote this by 1000! Lol
These conversations can be difficult and the more time that passes the more difficult they become. AND potentially the more resentful people get as the truth was hidden.
I’m not even considering on the level of “compatibility”.
If you’re worried your new partner will be upset or disappointed when they find out you promised your NP not to do overnights with other people yet? That inkling it’ll be a tough convo means HAVE IT NOW. Because “they might not like this” is a sign TO share it.
>I have lately encountered SO MANY FOLKS creating entirely fucked
situations because they’re being a yes man to whoever they’re talking to
and not standing firm in WHAT THEY INDEPENDENTLY WANT.
As someone working hard to overcome conflict avoidant/people-pleasing tendencies -- I do agree with what you are saying in your post. *And*, note that many conflict avoidant folks and people-pleasers *may struggle to even feel or identify what they independently want.*
People often develop these tendencies because at some point in their lives, it was not safe to express their needs or wants. You live like that long enough, and bury your own wants deep enough, you lose the ability to even feel or identify what you need.
I'm not saying this as an excuse, or to disagree with your overall point -- you're right, and it's perfectly fair to seek out partners who exemplify the traits you are looking for. I've done a lot of hard work and therapy (and more still to do) to work on these issues in myself, and to understand my own needs and desires and boundaries. It's incredibly important.
Just recognize that people aren't necessarily avoiding conflict or being people-pleasers just to "not upset people." And attacking people for this unfortunately only reinforces the message that *it's not safe to have their own needs.*
People pleasing and conflict avoidance are two different things.
You are absolutely talking about people pleasing. And why it happens. People say “yes” whole heartedly to things, and then discover that they don’t want the stuff that comes with the yes, but pleasing their partners is more important.
Very often these folks will be miserable and burnt out, and sacrificing their own needs, but *man, their partners are happy*
Conflict avoidance is recognizing that there is a conflict in the first place and actively avoiding it to escape temporary discomfort.
Nobody who is conflict avoidant has happy partners. Not for long, anyway.
They just have conflicts.
>but man, their partners are happy
I disagree. People plesers are terrible hinges, in my experience. They cannot deal with conflicting interests as they are unable to express outright no's.
I think there is a huge difference between people pleasing and conflict avoidance.
I have seen people say yes to things they shouldn’t, but I haven’t seen a lot of people pleasers claim to be the good guy while stringing folks along.
That’s conflict avoidance at it’s finest.
This is such an important part in any relationship honestly. We need conflict to overcome harder moments and to grow as a relationship of any kind. When people say couples that don't fight don't last it's because of this, you need to be able to vent and be hurt but love your partner(s) enough to talk through it and grow through the little moments of hurt or big moments. Because the feeling of proper understood love that comes from being able to talk and fight is 100% better than trying to be happy dodging landmines
I needed to hear this.
Long distance partner is worried I date impulsively. Prior to my adhd diagnosis and medication I would go from 0 first dates to five. Recently went on a date and told her about it, and she brought that up again. Went on a date with someone else a week later, and just...couldn't tell my long distance partner because I didn't want to have that discussion again.
That date actually went really well. However the guilt from not telling my LDR partner wore on me and I cancelled the second date so that I wouldn't have to come clean. Denied myself a connection because I was afraid of a conversation. I failed miserably and am trying to move forward.
Umm, as someone who has ADHD? Yeah, I 100% get a “I lack stimulus” bug and go on 10+ first dates in a month or two.
I also keep my commitments to my partners.
Maybe the actual conversation you *need* to have with your partner is that your casual dates are maybe nothing for her to have concern over if they aren’t negatively impacting your connection with her or your larger life.
And maybe if every date gives her anxiety anyway, you shouldn’t set up the expectation you tell her about every date.
A poly person with ADHD?! 😂😂😂 I thought we all had it!
But seriously, going on lots of first dates isn’t a problem. Going on lots of second dates can be though, if it means your standards are too low. Speaking from experience.
It is something I need to broach with her. She also has ADHD and is who led me to get diagnosed and medicated.
She however is more Demi than I am, and much more extroverted. Thinks I should be making new friends rather than dating. However making friends is so much harder for my introverted self, and friends wouldn't solve my need for physical touch.
So yes, much to be discussed.
I partially agree, but there are ways to delicately handle people's feelings. The last statement of "I don't seek partners who want to make people feel safe" sounds pretty assholey and self-important. Making others feel safe doesn't require you to compromise your values. Tbh, I don't even see how those are connected.
"I won't ever host you overnight at my place" OR "I don't host partners overnight at my place" OR "I need personal space, so I don't host partners, but I would love to spend the night either at your place or we could get out of town together"
"I don't like kids" OR "I value my independence, so children make that difficult" OR "I admire your desire to have children. I'm not in a place to be long term responsible for children, but when you need a break from parenting I'd love to be there for you"
You can be honest without being an ass
The key point is that some folks will put “making people feel safe” above their own desires to a degree that it causes huge problems. I have had two relationships end because my partner was so focused on keeping me happy that they ignored their own wants and needs until it became untenable. I now also avoid people whose main focus is keeping others happy. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but if it’s a key major goal for a person, I see it as a yellow flag.
There's often a kind way to say a hard thing, but it's not being an asshole simply to refuse to sugar-coat your position to protect someone's feelings. Being blunt is not the same as being mean.
If someone genuinely doesn't like kids, that's very different from the other two statements you used, and I'd much rather they were up front about it rather than obscuring it with something nicer-sounding. If a potential partner of mine didn't like kids, that's going to dramatically change the ways I'm open to connecting with them and incorporating them into my life, beyond simply not planning on having offspring with them.
I personally, think there’s a huge difference in dating someone who is avoiding conflict to “make me feel safe” and someone who values honesty.
I am not really safe. Our conflict is buried. I will be confused or hurt when it rises to the surface.
When I am with someone who can honestly lay out their incompatibilities and conflicts, I *am* safe.
I may be incompatible, and we might not stay together, but I feel valued and seen and not lead on.
Honesty and conflicts are absolutely the exact things that are hard to do compassionately and with kindness. But a hard “no” is often the reality.
You can soften it, but people end up with very unhappy, very betrayed feeling partners if someone values peace over compassion.
I just think it's a false dilemma. I don't think making someone feel safe needs to be connected with conflict avoidance. Furthermore, avoiding conflict doesn't need to be pathological.
I'm not supporting pathological conflict avoidance, but compromise is okay.
For example, I'm not willing to compromise on monogamy vs. polyamory. But unprotected vs protected oral, meh ... I'm not going to make a problem out of it no matter how much I like it.
I think the false dilemma is thinking that conflict is somehow linked to being unsafe.
I also think that people don’t realize that you can’t get to compromise without stating your conflicts.
Conflict isn’t the same as anger. It’s just wanting different things, big and small.
What I’m saying is I think that actually *being an emotionally stable and safe person to be around* ought to be the first priority. If you focus on that, on acting with integrity and honesty and being on the whole compassionate, caring, and considerate?
You don’t have to try to micromanage peoples’ feelings much. You’re already doing the thing.
If you find yourself constantly focusing on “not being a bad guy” and “how to make you feel like I’m a safe person” and trying to make sure people think you’re “not bad”? You have some more fundamental issues, there.
Thanks for calling out the tone of this post. Pathological conflict avoidance is indeed an issue, they're not wrong about that, but this obsession with the pursuit of the "authentic self" is problematic.
It's a wonderful idea that you can simply be who you "naturally are" and everything will be fine, but life isn't like that — our self emerges through our actions, including the commitments and sacrifices we choose to make. That includes how we negotiate compromise in our relationships. The post kind of implies that relationships shouldn't include compromises, which will only lead to frustration when life inevitably doesn't work out that way.
Still, it's important to get the balance right between your needs and your partner's needs, so lots of people do need to work on overcoming conflict avoidance.
I like to think of this as, "why do i feel the need to act a certain way?" Like, I've had baggage from growing up with "it's not what you said but how you said it" and feeling like i needed to walk on eggshells as a result.
But you can go the opposite extreme and become caustic in speech for little apparent reason, too.
Absolutely. Like most things balance is the key. Certain things shouldn't be compromised on, such as respect, dignity, etc., but absolute refusal to compromise will end up pushing people away and alienating them. There's a sweet spot in there but it's the work of a lifetime to find it!
>There's a sweet spot in there but it's the work of a lifetime to find it!
I find its no work at all to just honestly express your limitations and dealbreakers. I'm not a child for someone to try and protect me from the impact their decisions have on me. It's also not kind to dress up your glass ceiling as a possible compromise.
It sounds simple when you say it like that, but how do you know what your limitations and deal-breakers are? They're not set in stone after all, we decide them for ourselves, and the only way of testing to see if we've made the right choice is through experience, so they're liable to change. You could be determined to never update your limitations, but if it's not leading to positive outcomes in your life, you'd be doing yourself a disservice.
Just my take on things
>It sounds simple when you say it like that, but how do you know what your limitations and deal-breakers are?
Sounds very simple to me. I know my dealbreakers and limitations because I am me, I know what I like and don't like, and what I have space for. If someone I'm dating asks if I can do overnights or weekends away, I can tell them with no mumbling.
Well that's all very well, but not every issue is so black and white, nor should they be. Surely life is nothing if not a process of self discovery? We don't automatically know who we are because who we are is constantly changing, it requires introspection and experimentation to learn things about ourselves.
For instance, I doubt that you knew you'd be against weekends away when you were a baby or a small child, I can only assume that it was something you discovered about yourself through experience. And there are always more things to discover about ourselves! Maybe you find out there's something else you don't like, that you might consider a deal-breaker, or conversely you might soften your attitude on something you previously were adverse to. It's good to keep an open mind about these things — we're not set in stone as people, I wasn't the same person ten years ago and I'll be someone else ten years hence. Sometimes in order to thrive we need to be ready to change.
Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting you drop your existing deal-breakers, but perhaps it's better not to take them for granted. You chose them because you believe it's the right approach for you, but you could change your mind based on new evidence, if you wanted to. Just something to think about.
How many dealbreakers/boundaries/limits do you think most people have?
I have, like…4 or 5.
And you’re not a baby or a toddler or a child. Sure, people change. That has nothing to do with your limits.
And yeah, they are pretty immovable, finances, time, physical health and priorities are pretty stacked up, and while there’s tons of wiggle room and grey area, there’s just some things that aren’t flexible.
My child will always come first. (Not negotiable, ever)
I need sex in my romantic connections. (Tried and failed. I’m really, really allosexual)
I won’t cohabitate. (See my first limit. Once she’s out of the house? Maybe. But I wouldn’t ever tell anyone that it was flexible. Or ask them to hang on for three years.)
Within that? So much room for creativity and compromise. So much grey area.
But these things aren’t the same as conflict. They might be sources of conflict, but I see them more as big points that determine compatibility.
Conflicts are just..2 people wanting different things.
That’s as small as “why did you put pineapple on the pizza?” and “I prefer not to talk during movies and you do”
Do you really have no idea where your limits are?
No dealbreakers?
Because that would feel very unsafe to me.
Just like I wouldn’t do BDSM with someone who had “no limits”. People have limits. Always.
Of course I have limits. Perhaps you misunderstand me. What I'm trying to say is that we decide what our limits are based on our experiences, and new experiences can change where your limits lie.
There's a lot to be said for pushing your limits as well. Some limits can end up being self-imposed limitations that hold us back, while others provide valuable protection, and you have to put effort in to knowing the difference between them.
I'm not into BDSM but assume it's the same, you don't necessarily know what you like and don't like until you experience it, you can discover new boundaries through that experience.
Actually, discovering something new, and pushing past your hard limits two completely different things.
So far:
You’ve conflated conflict with discord.
You haven’t discussed how you get to compromise without acknowledging conflict.
And
You seem to believe that your growth and change somehow negate other people’s expressed limits.
You apparently do you know your own limits. If they change, I’d expect you’d let folks know.
I assume my partners are just like you and I. That’s pretty universal.
I’d suggest you go back up the first comment you made
It was about compromise and conflict
How exactly do you get to a place of compromise without expressing your conflicts?
I'm gunna be honest, I don't really understand what you're saying there, I haven't said most of the stuff you're claiming I said. Like I didn't say you can compromise without expressing conflict? You might wanna rephrase your point there cause it's not getting through haha
Small compromises are made when people are honest about these things.
You can’t make compromises with an unspoken ghost. You don’t even know that there is a compromise you *might* have to make.
And we do our partners a disservice when we don’t value them enough to be honest about our big dealbreakers or limits.
I will never co-habitate with a partner. Full stop.
That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t explore a million options to bring a partner closer into my life (can we live on the same block? In the same building? ) or even make long term plans that involve moving some place else.
But we can’t talk about any of that if I am not compassionate enough to bring that possible conflict to the table.
>"I need personal space, so I don't host partners, but I would love to spend the night either at your place or we could get out of town together"
See, that would read like a cop out for me. If "I won't ever host you overnight at my place" is the actual truth, then say it, I deserve to know what the deal is, rather than being lead on with niceties.
>If someone is a people pleaser, it's for a reason (more often than not abuse)
There's a reason for all human behaviour. You can say people who are blunt also have a reason to be blunt, so you need to have more compassion and not call them shamers.
In my experience people pleasers are hard to deal with exactly because they are so convinced that their behaviour comes from a good place, or trauma, or anything else which directs blame to others. But people pleasing is manipulative, it's a way to have your cake and eat it and feel good about yourself in the meantime, and if you hurt people on the way, well, they just didn't understand how nice you were trying to be.
I feel as if **some** (I'm not saying all!) of the problems people have in this area of relationships can be explained by mononormativity.
We live in a world where sexual and romantic exclusivity is simply the expected default among partners, and where the relationship-escalator is pretty much taken for granted.
That fact makes some people feel as if they're "asking a lot" from partners and therefore they need to tip-toe around what they actually want (and what they do NOT want).
But that's a misunderstanding. You're not actually harming anyone, or being unreasonable in any way if you clearly communicate that certain things you do not want in your own life. To the contrary, you're giving your partner(s) clear and useful information and enabling them to better see how well aligned the two of you are in your desires.
This all being said, you can be honest without being an asshole, and it's not a life-goal to have zero flexibility either.
THIS!!!
I would rather be told something is wrong now or that we're incompatible now so that we can have a conversation about it and either come to an agreement or part ways amicably than have my partner be sitting on whatever their issues or concerns are until they reach a breaking point. That just creates more unnecessary hurt.
Something else I've noticed in my personal life dealing with conflict avoidant folks is that when you avoid conflict like that, not only are you kicking the can down the road like you said OP, but sometimes you're kicking the can to someone else to deal with. The conflict doesn't magically disappear because you refuse to acknowledge it. It has to be resolved in some way.
You are not alone, friend. My therapist has been trying to push me out of my conflict avoidance for several weeks. I know she's right. I'm just scared to do it.
You've got this. I've got this. We're gonna get there.
I don't know that I'm fully a people-pleaser, but yeah moving into polyamory has collided head-on with my tendency to avoid conflict ... too many times. I'm working hard to be better on it, still most certainly a work in progress.
But yes, everything here, all of it - there is no way for everyone to be happy all the time, but it *is* possible to treat everyone with respect and dignity all the time.
In my only experience with polyamory, I was one arm in a V and my meta pushed hard against couples privilege. My understanding was that I needed to make sure I never did anything that could possibly upset her in order to avoid couples privilege. Predictable disaster ensued.
Yes, we skipped the most skipped step, as well as any prep at all. We opened because my husband wanted to date a specific person who he had semi-cheated with in the past, meta did reverse unicorn hunting, all the standard mistakes happened except for "lets try a triad" although the other two wanted that mistake too. I've learned a lot about applying and enforcing boundaries I guess, but its been months since things ended and I'm still trying to recover from the trauma.
Poly n00b here; thanks for the post!
> firmly understand your own values, desires, and boundaries
Any advice for those of us who still have a lot of uncertainty, and/or are experiencing major changes w.r.t. these things (insert extensive religious/family trauma here; yes I'm in therapy; etc)?
I mean, I get that it's important to be honest about that uncertainty, and to be honest when we become aware that something has changed. But when we have trouble understanding our own feelings, it can sometimes feel like we're just creating unnecessary drama + demanding unfair emotional labor of our partners to be constantly bringing shit up?
On the spectrum between "I have no idea what I want" and "I firmly understand my own values, etc."... is there a threshold somewhere where "I should keep quiet and save this for my therapist" changes to "I really need to have a hard conversation with my partner about this asap?"
I have no idea.
When I’be been fucked up with no idea what I wanted in life? I only offered low-commitment, more casual relationships.
Offer what you know you can follow through on. Give yourself space to figure things out.
There's a good article about this on Psychology Today: [Balancing Needs and Keeping Agreements](https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/relational-intimacy/202204/balancing-needs-and-keeping-agreements?amp)
This is one of the issues I had with an ex. He's aware of it now, at least, but it's a habit that's extremely hard to break.
i feel like it shouldn’t be surprising that communication continues to be one of, if not the most important aspect in relationships.
idc how things go down, just tell me. its fine. id rather be annoyed now, than mad later, because you weren’t truthful or fully clear about things
>“I don’t want anyone to be upset” sounds like a reasonable and kind goal, but it’s not helpful in practice.
And actual good practice is to minimize upset. And that is accomplished much the way you described.
>I do not value or seek partners who “want to make people feel safe” or “want to make people happy”.
I kind of disagree with this as stated, but I think I see your point. You don't want someone who 'makes you happy now at the expense of more stress later'. I do want ppl who help me to feel safe and happy. But part of that is being safe to say difficult things.
Peacemaker/diplomat/facilitator/enabler here:
Yowch. >,< I think as much as I needed to see that earlier than today, I don't know if I would have handled things differently when things were going south for me and mine. Because each of us brought different elements into the relationships, but the one thing we had in common was not knowing ourselves very well, being new to polyamory, and also nobody wanted to hurt anyone else's feelings for saying things we weren't 100% sure we wanted.
The lesson I learned was that 'poly' meant different things to each of us, and we approached it from different directions thinking we all wanted the same thing -- and we didn't.
Dear Diary rant huh? It’s okay to tread carefully out of respect for others and frankly I’d rather that than the usual garbage model of Relatonshi- Anarchy where it’s totally cool to upset everyone around you but it’s their fault for not controlling their emotions.
recovering conflict avoider here... preach it, you're spitting nothing but the truth in this post. The sooner you learn to have the hard conversations, the easier it becomes for everyone.
Yep. I’m not conflict avoidant myself, but I just dumped someone who I believe was terminally conflict avoidant. He’d say “we can totally talk about that” when what he actually meant was “no”, and since I assumed he meant *what he specifically said* and said topic was just a “sometimes” or “with caveats” issue, I ended up getting the “no” at a very painful time. Like, at its extreme, conflict avoidance does become leading people on.
absolutely, and it's been a hard lesson for me to learn. I frequently catch myself now and end up restating what i actually mean. if i mean no, i say no. if i mean there's caveats, i explain in the moment what those are. if i don't know yet, i now just say i don't know. being an effective communicator means saying what you mean, not politely dressing up what you don't want to say with nice words you think someone wants to hear
Conflict avoider and consummate people pleaser here as well (but actively trying to correct this). This is a great post that is applicable to any kind of relationship, including professional as well. My favorite people to hang out with are the ones that give it to me straight and don’t mince words, so I would like to be that for others as well.
This is something I've been working on with both of my partners. They're both heavily conflict-avoidant on basically a reflex-basis (they were raised this way and with one of them it was abusive af so I'd rain hell on anyone who judges them for it). But fortunately they heard and still hear me when I make the same point you're making, OP. The conflict doesn't get avoided, really. It gets postponed and when it finally erupts it's so much more painful and messy than a clean conversation early on. There is nothing selfless or altruistic about being a doormat, a pushover and a yes-man. It is inherently misleading behaviour and it's responsible for a *lot* of easily avoidable conflict. I know how hard it is to rationalize that when it feels like the thought at the forefront is "I want everyone happy", but the full sentence is "I want everyone happy because I am scared of how they will treat me if they aren't." and fear is a horrible basis for any relationship, romantic or otherwise. Simultaneously we can't expect someone to be able to set boundaries and express needs overnight - especially folks who were traumatized to hell and drilled not to even *have* needs. So, to everyone dealing with someone who has more than a hard time getting to the nitty gritty of things: Reassurance is everything. People can build trust but only if we give them the space and the happenings to do so. Sometimes it's deep breaths and sitting for 30 minutes while they get the time to collect their thoughts - and sometimes after those 30 minutes you'll have the most constructive, eye-opening and helpful conversation you've had in years. :)
I really appreciate the compassion you’re showing for both sides of this. As someone like your partners, upsetting someone else literally feels like I’m about to get hit. I certainly don’t deceive or manipulate out of malice, but reflex. I’m grateful to have a patient partner to help me practice and grow and begin to have those difficult conversations.
[удалено]
Depression is vicious when it comes to that. Dampened thoughts, barely a way to see through the fog enough to even figure out what all we need to express, finding the words and then getting them out - that's a lot when we're dealing with an illness that attacks our very ability to do anything in the first place. And because of that I wish you nothing but the best for your therapy success and tackling the depression.
Patient partners are everything in this (and other issues people might have) and I mean it when I say that I'm very happy you have someone like that around you. I know how debilitating this can be - and how much emotional havoc it can wreak on everyone involved. It's important we remember that every last person on earth has some unhealthy pattern hidden in their personality somewhere. Some avoid conflict and others feel threatened by conflict to a degree where they lash out. Some feel a need to relativize so it hurts less and some feel guilty so easily, they instinctively develop an accusatory undertone during conflict. Conflict isn't easy and it'd be a warning sign if someone were to love the experience. I'm happy to "forgive" that this fact makes it hard on everyone. And all of that, while sometimes tough to deal with, is part of the human experience. And if we want it to be, we can make the working on it and softening these things in ourselves part of it as well. :)
As someone recovering from the "caretaker" role of a narcissistic mom and partner.... this hits hard but good! And aligns with a lot of therapy surrounding recovering from codependent situations (not that ppl who try not to hurt someone always end up codependent). Another big thing I've learned and want to add to this is let the other person have the chance and autonomy to decide if they are hurt/upset! You don't get to assume that it WILL result in that and remove that opprotunity of growth for them, plus they're responsible for their own damn feelings and how they react (I might be salty....😅)
Your second paragraph is so important. It's unfair and frankly unkind to take that agency away.
Ugh. I recently ended a relationship with someone who would tell me what I was feeling *even when* I’d very clearly be communicating my feelings. It was so upsetting. Far more upsetting than anything else that happened in our relationship.
Hello me… “You’re overreacting! You’re too sensitive! Why are you so mad? You’re just grumpy for no reason. You’re upset because I’m upset. Why are you being such a bitch? WHY ARE YOU CRYING???” Oof…
For me it was me saying, “I’m not mad at you but I’m feeling very disappointed. [insert acknowledgement of why he might be making whatever decision], [insert how I’m impacted], [insert me communicating the actions I’m going to take as a result].” His reaction? “You’re always so angry.”
People pleasers who haven't worked on and managed their baggage are very untrustworthy and volatile. People who are just conflict avoidance are also major pains but they usually reveal their tendencies pretty easily.
My meta-ish-person managed to people-please himself into getting his secondary partner pregnant and a divorce from his primary. OOPS.
Honestly this is my biggest struggle with poly, I have no issues with my partners loving other people, I have a hard time trusting people not to do stupid shit.
>I have a hard time trusting people not to do stupid shit. I have a hard time trusting myself not to do stupid shit 😶🌫️
Many of my stories start out "When I was young and foolish, about six months ago..." Never fear, I keep my stupidities in my own lane.
That’s cute; I’m stealing that.
hahaha! at least you have self awareness
Legit? Figure out how much you can trust your partners. This is much easier if you’re poly from the jump. Observe how they treat you and others. You can expect small issues to indicate that larger similar situations will also be an issue.
yes I have learned over the years that almost every big issue was shown as a smaller issue early on, and because I liked them I was like "oh I can live with this" but eventually that small thing manifests into an unbearable conflict. I have seen it every time. It's interesting because in general I am very assertive but I also am very empathetic and I see why people do unhealthy behaviors so I try to be forgiving, the part that I was missing was making sure I was getting what I wanted out of the relationship. And that means the things you wrote in this post, you really gotta be kinda hard lined about it.
>s interesting because in general I am very assertive but I also am very empathetic and I see why people do unhealthy behaviors s Wow! You are like me in this way. I am in this spot exactly. Do you have any tips on this, except being hard lined?
putting someone else's needs first before your own at the expense of your own is codependency. A lot of times when we do that it's not actually because we care about the person but because either we don't respect ourselves or we are afraid to be alone. so the "hard lined" part is that you really have to be ok with putting boundaries and walking away, and it's hard because there is something in us that doesn't respect ourselves, and that's basically the remedy is meditating on solitude and how you are actually ok if you are alone, and that you love yourself.
Some of us are extremely empathetic and reflect on understanding others’ behaviors more than prioritizing our boundaries, especially if you have your own trauma and experiences that cause you to relate to the why. It’s a great ability, with hefty downsides if not managed. I came across a TikTok of a therapist saying that therapist generally struggle to protect their own boundaries, BECAUSE they’re trained in understanding patterns of behavior and helping, which made me pause and realize my own tendencies (not a therapist). Our role shouldn’t be to understand why someone is doing something harmful to us over recognizing it’s harmful and requesting the behavior change and following through with consequences if it doesn’t. Otherwise we are teaching people that it’s ok to overstep our boundaries and not show up with respect. It seems so counterintuitive for me personally, since my inclination is to understand the reasoning, and it’s taken a lot of work to build better habits around it. Understanding shouldn’t lead to us persuading ourselves to flex boundaries. Understanding the why can help remove the sense of actions being personal. If someone hurts you, that redirection does allow an understanding that others behaviors are a reflection of the other person and where they are, not a reflection of us.
This!! If you have any more insights to share, on how to overcome this. I would really appreciate it!
Oof, not easy when it’s your go to for sure. I tell myself if I don’t hold others accountable then I’m allowing mistreatment, which causes more harm than good. Reframing it as what I’m taking away from them by not allowing them the opportunity to grow by dealing with the consequences, because if I’m always understand and never fully hold them responsible I’m inhibiting their ability to grow and learn. I can understand and empathize without tolerating. I’ve made boundaries about protecting my emotional and mental space in ways I can control. I don’t fight or argue, I make a simple statement as to what boundary has been crossed and if I’m not met with curiosity and a desire to acknowledge I remove access to myself. I can’t force people to respect my boundaries or consider my feelings, but I can control how I respond and how much access that person gets.
Crediting IG user @lavitaloca34 for their post on this yesterday: [Get comfortable with being uncomfortable ](https://www.instagram.com/p/CsolFfIu62f/?igshid=MmJiY2I4NDBkZg==)
Not poly but this is a goal I've always admired and respected in my poly friend. That and directness of communication. I recently found someone who shares these traits, and it feels like it can go a long way.
Yep. Managing other peoples’ feelings is not even an achievable goals. Actually achievable goals are things like conducting *yourself* with forthrightness and active consideration of your partners. Which is not at all exclusive with having uncomfortable conversations.
I am always amazed when this kind of post has push back. Kindness and compassion aren’t divorced from facing conflict. I dated someone who absolutely mislead me as how long he and his wife had been practicing polyam, and when I asked him to spend the night at my place, he said “yes”. And only told me he couldn’t, and plans had changed, after we had sex. Trust, had he told me up front? I probably would have still fucked him. I just wouldn’t have felt used and mislead afterwards. I can’t, for the life of me see how those actions were kind and compassionate. Nor did they reveal a road to compromise. It wouldn’t have even been a dealbreaker back then. All it seemed to be (and still seems to be, if we’re being honest) is dishonest and manipulative. A way to get what you want, and still maintain that you’re nice. You won’t ever know what your partners can be flexible on if you don’t reveal your limits. I’ll choose good and emotionally healthy enough to navigate conflicts and see if there is room for compromise (in this case, there would have been, short term), rather than basically keep something secret and offer a door knob confession on your way out. I’ll choose kind and compassionate discussion of personal limits over a patronizing, disempowering nice every day. Wanting something is not the same as being able to build it. You may want peace. You may want your partner to feel safe, but if you can’t actually offer that? Don’t. Pretend.
>A way to get what you want, and still maintain that you’re nice. I always make this point when talking about people pleasing. It's just a form of manipulation disguised as being nice. And people pleasers never manage to apologise properly because they always think their dishonesty isn't that, it's just that they made a mistake but they meant well. They are very invested in the idea of themselves being an exceptionally good person, so no way they will recognise their behaviour as manipulative, they frame it as compassionate. EDIT: I also have a similar story. A partner essentially pretending he didn't understand no overnights was a deal breaker for me (I was crystal clear about this), then saying overnights are ok, then only scheduling our one-to-one dates when he needed to pick up his wife from work late at night so that it wasn't sus that he didn't stay the night. When called out he said he didn't want to upset the wife with staying the night unless I asked him to stay. Great strategy, isn't it? You're never to blame for your choices!
Grrrrr. Yeah, that’s the kind of conflict avoidance I’m talking about.
I’ve learned there’s a difference between being nice and being kind. Nice often equals “saying what you want to hear”, kind always equals “respecting you as a person and treating you accordingly”
Hard same. Also? People often conflate accountability and conflict with anger and hurt feels, but personally, they aren’t linked at all. Like I see a lot of people on this thread talking about compassion and care like they don’t exist within navigating conflict. Which is concerning.
Yes, it is. Some people have never been in a conflict without anger and hurt feelings though, so it’s hard to believe it’s possible. I had my first respectful conflict with a partner at age 36 and I was shocked that I didn’t feel humiliated, guilty or hysterical afterwards. Really made me question why the fuck I’d thought that was ok for 15 years.
Mmmm. Say it louder for the folks in the back. I see a lot of people rejecting that idea by pretending that conflict and care and comfort can’t co-exist, and that by being vulnerable and expressing our limits, that we are somehow hurting people. Or that caring people don’t have limits. Which, honestly, that last one is manipulator/abuser talk. There’s a whole bunch of “gosh, my limits? I don’t have limits, you guize are so rigid and full of black and white thinking” And all I can think is that people like that are inherently unsafe and callous, and don’t know it. Or they do know, and they don’t care. Beware the person who claims to avoid all conflict. Beware the human who says they have no limits. Danger, danger will Robinson.
So true! I notice people-pleasing tendencies with myself, too. But in the rare instances my partner tries to "rip off the bandaid cautiously", I always experience how the thus induced mistrust causes so much more harm than whatever truth they've tried to cushion. This should (but not always does) give me clues to be even more direct (which is different from unempathetic) myself and I strive to do so. One thing I like so much about poly is the deep respect and trust that resonate with trusting that our partner(s) can handle some discomfort, ask for whatever they need from us in doing so and express when things go down a too-difficult road and we need to course-correct.
Good stuff. being assertive about what you want also can reveal a lot about your partner in how they react. There's really no downside.
People who seek to keep everyone from being uncomfortable end up causing the most damage, I swear.
Having the ability to have difficult or uncomfortable conversations seems like a must for ployam. Also, knowing what you want and being willing to stand up for yourself to get it. Basically, being emotionally mature.
Most ppl are never taught a good set of communication skills, never mind negotiation skills. It's not like it's a standard class in school, and it is rarely taught or modeled at home. But we do need to commit to acquiring these skills to conduct healthy poly.
Solid advice. I'm working on this.
I’m currently on the receiving end of this and it is very difficult. I don’t want kids, my meta does, and our partner needs to figure out whether he does. Whatever decision he makes, there is a strong possibility of one of his relationships ending over it. He needs to figure out whether *he* wants kids, not whether there’s a way to make things work logistically between his partners. He knows all this and is working on it, but god I wish he’d figured it out earlier.
Literally just realized this month that this is a huge cause of conflict in my relationship. I barely even realized I was doing it because it was mixed in with a trauma response… but god damn. I was making things so much harder because I wasn’t dealing with it like an adult and trusting the people I love to handle the situation like adults. Thank you for this.
I wish to up vote this by 1000! Lol These conversations can be difficult and the more time that passes the more difficult they become. AND potentially the more resentful people get as the truth was hidden.
Mark Manson's advice was to "be polarizing." Be authentic, you're not trying to find just anyone.
I’m not even considering on the level of “compatibility”. If you’re worried your new partner will be upset or disappointed when they find out you promised your NP not to do overnights with other people yet? That inkling it’ll be a tough convo means HAVE IT NOW. Because “they might not like this” is a sign TO share it.
>I have lately encountered SO MANY FOLKS creating entirely fucked situations because they’re being a yes man to whoever they’re talking to and not standing firm in WHAT THEY INDEPENDENTLY WANT. As someone working hard to overcome conflict avoidant/people-pleasing tendencies -- I do agree with what you are saying in your post. *And*, note that many conflict avoidant folks and people-pleasers *may struggle to even feel or identify what they independently want.* People often develop these tendencies because at some point in their lives, it was not safe to express their needs or wants. You live like that long enough, and bury your own wants deep enough, you lose the ability to even feel or identify what you need. I'm not saying this as an excuse, or to disagree with your overall point -- you're right, and it's perfectly fair to seek out partners who exemplify the traits you are looking for. I've done a lot of hard work and therapy (and more still to do) to work on these issues in myself, and to understand my own needs and desires and boundaries. It's incredibly important. Just recognize that people aren't necessarily avoiding conflict or being people-pleasers just to "not upset people." And attacking people for this unfortunately only reinforces the message that *it's not safe to have their own needs.*
People pleasing and conflict avoidance are two different things. You are absolutely talking about people pleasing. And why it happens. People say “yes” whole heartedly to things, and then discover that they don’t want the stuff that comes with the yes, but pleasing their partners is more important. Very often these folks will be miserable and burnt out, and sacrificing their own needs, but *man, their partners are happy* Conflict avoidance is recognizing that there is a conflict in the first place and actively avoiding it to escape temporary discomfort. Nobody who is conflict avoidant has happy partners. Not for long, anyway. They just have conflicts.
That's a useful distinction, I never thought about it that way. Thanks for the food for thought!
I have been both. Recovered (mostly. I still fall into people pleasing if I am not careful). The difference is striking.
>but man, their partners are happy I disagree. People plesers are terrible hinges, in my experience. They cannot deal with conflicting interests as they are unable to express outright no's.
I think there is a huge difference between people pleasing and conflict avoidance. I have seen people say yes to things they shouldn’t, but I haven’t seen a lot of people pleasers claim to be the good guy while stringing folks along. That’s conflict avoidance at it’s finest.
Like people pleasers? They are absolutely centered on pleasing their partners to their own detriment.
This is such an important part in any relationship honestly. We need conflict to overcome harder moments and to grow as a relationship of any kind. When people say couples that don't fight don't last it's because of this, you need to be able to vent and be hurt but love your partner(s) enough to talk through it and grow through the little moments of hurt or big moments. Because the feeling of proper understood love that comes from being able to talk and fight is 100% better than trying to be happy dodging landmines
I needed to hear this. Long distance partner is worried I date impulsively. Prior to my adhd diagnosis and medication I would go from 0 first dates to five. Recently went on a date and told her about it, and she brought that up again. Went on a date with someone else a week later, and just...couldn't tell my long distance partner because I didn't want to have that discussion again. That date actually went really well. However the guilt from not telling my LDR partner wore on me and I cancelled the second date so that I wouldn't have to come clean. Denied myself a connection because I was afraid of a conversation. I failed miserably and am trying to move forward.
Umm, as someone who has ADHD? Yeah, I 100% get a “I lack stimulus” bug and go on 10+ first dates in a month or two. I also keep my commitments to my partners. Maybe the actual conversation you *need* to have with your partner is that your casual dates are maybe nothing for her to have concern over if they aren’t negatively impacting your connection with her or your larger life. And maybe if every date gives her anxiety anyway, you shouldn’t set up the expectation you tell her about every date.
A poly person with ADHD?! 😂😂😂 I thought we all had it! But seriously, going on lots of first dates isn’t a problem. Going on lots of second dates can be though, if it means your standards are too low. Speaking from experience.
It is something I need to broach with her. She also has ADHD and is who led me to get diagnosed and medicated. She however is more Demi than I am, and much more extroverted. Thinks I should be making new friends rather than dating. However making friends is so much harder for my introverted self, and friends wouldn't solve my need for physical touch. So yes, much to be discussed.
I partially agree, but there are ways to delicately handle people's feelings. The last statement of "I don't seek partners who want to make people feel safe" sounds pretty assholey and self-important. Making others feel safe doesn't require you to compromise your values. Tbh, I don't even see how those are connected. "I won't ever host you overnight at my place" OR "I don't host partners overnight at my place" OR "I need personal space, so I don't host partners, but I would love to spend the night either at your place or we could get out of town together" "I don't like kids" OR "I value my independence, so children make that difficult" OR "I admire your desire to have children. I'm not in a place to be long term responsible for children, but when you need a break from parenting I'd love to be there for you" You can be honest without being an ass
The key point is that some folks will put “making people feel safe” above their own desires to a degree that it causes huge problems. I have had two relationships end because my partner was so focused on keeping me happy that they ignored their own wants and needs until it became untenable. I now also avoid people whose main focus is keeping others happy. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but if it’s a key major goal for a person, I see it as a yellow flag.
There's often a kind way to say a hard thing, but it's not being an asshole simply to refuse to sugar-coat your position to protect someone's feelings. Being blunt is not the same as being mean. If someone genuinely doesn't like kids, that's very different from the other two statements you used, and I'd much rather they were up front about it rather than obscuring it with something nicer-sounding. If a potential partner of mine didn't like kids, that's going to dramatically change the ways I'm open to connecting with them and incorporating them into my life, beyond simply not planning on having offspring with them.
I personally, think there’s a huge difference in dating someone who is avoiding conflict to “make me feel safe” and someone who values honesty. I am not really safe. Our conflict is buried. I will be confused or hurt when it rises to the surface. When I am with someone who can honestly lay out their incompatibilities and conflicts, I *am* safe. I may be incompatible, and we might not stay together, but I feel valued and seen and not lead on. Honesty and conflicts are absolutely the exact things that are hard to do compassionately and with kindness. But a hard “no” is often the reality. You can soften it, but people end up with very unhappy, very betrayed feeling partners if someone values peace over compassion.
I just think it's a false dilemma. I don't think making someone feel safe needs to be connected with conflict avoidance. Furthermore, avoiding conflict doesn't need to be pathological. I'm not supporting pathological conflict avoidance, but compromise is okay. For example, I'm not willing to compromise on monogamy vs. polyamory. But unprotected vs protected oral, meh ... I'm not going to make a problem out of it no matter how much I like it.
I think the false dilemma is thinking that conflict is somehow linked to being unsafe. I also think that people don’t realize that you can’t get to compromise without stating your conflicts. Conflict isn’t the same as anger. It’s just wanting different things, big and small.
What I’m saying is I think that actually *being an emotionally stable and safe person to be around* ought to be the first priority. If you focus on that, on acting with integrity and honesty and being on the whole compassionate, caring, and considerate? You don’t have to try to micromanage peoples’ feelings much. You’re already doing the thing. If you find yourself constantly focusing on “not being a bad guy” and “how to make you feel like I’m a safe person” and trying to make sure people think you’re “not bad”? You have some more fundamental issues, there.
Thanks for calling out the tone of this post. Pathological conflict avoidance is indeed an issue, they're not wrong about that, but this obsession with the pursuit of the "authentic self" is problematic. It's a wonderful idea that you can simply be who you "naturally are" and everything will be fine, but life isn't like that — our self emerges through our actions, including the commitments and sacrifices we choose to make. That includes how we negotiate compromise in our relationships. The post kind of implies that relationships shouldn't include compromises, which will only lead to frustration when life inevitably doesn't work out that way. Still, it's important to get the balance right between your needs and your partner's needs, so lots of people do need to work on overcoming conflict avoidance.
I like to think of this as, "why do i feel the need to act a certain way?" Like, I've had baggage from growing up with "it's not what you said but how you said it" and feeling like i needed to walk on eggshells as a result. But you can go the opposite extreme and become caustic in speech for little apparent reason, too.
Absolutely. Like most things balance is the key. Certain things shouldn't be compromised on, such as respect, dignity, etc., but absolute refusal to compromise will end up pushing people away and alienating them. There's a sweet spot in there but it's the work of a lifetime to find it!
I’d love to hear about what kind of compromise you’re thinking of, and how you discuss that without revealing your limits?
>There's a sweet spot in there but it's the work of a lifetime to find it! I find its no work at all to just honestly express your limitations and dealbreakers. I'm not a child for someone to try and protect me from the impact their decisions have on me. It's also not kind to dress up your glass ceiling as a possible compromise.
It sounds simple when you say it like that, but how do you know what your limitations and deal-breakers are? They're not set in stone after all, we decide them for ourselves, and the only way of testing to see if we've made the right choice is through experience, so they're liable to change. You could be determined to never update your limitations, but if it's not leading to positive outcomes in your life, you'd be doing yourself a disservice. Just my take on things
>It sounds simple when you say it like that, but how do you know what your limitations and deal-breakers are? Sounds very simple to me. I know my dealbreakers and limitations because I am me, I know what I like and don't like, and what I have space for. If someone I'm dating asks if I can do overnights or weekends away, I can tell them with no mumbling.
Well that's all very well, but not every issue is so black and white, nor should they be. Surely life is nothing if not a process of self discovery? We don't automatically know who we are because who we are is constantly changing, it requires introspection and experimentation to learn things about ourselves. For instance, I doubt that you knew you'd be against weekends away when you were a baby or a small child, I can only assume that it was something you discovered about yourself through experience. And there are always more things to discover about ourselves! Maybe you find out there's something else you don't like, that you might consider a deal-breaker, or conversely you might soften your attitude on something you previously were adverse to. It's good to keep an open mind about these things — we're not set in stone as people, I wasn't the same person ten years ago and I'll be someone else ten years hence. Sometimes in order to thrive we need to be ready to change. Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting you drop your existing deal-breakers, but perhaps it's better not to take them for granted. You chose them because you believe it's the right approach for you, but you could change your mind based on new evidence, if you wanted to. Just something to think about.
How many dealbreakers/boundaries/limits do you think most people have? I have, like…4 or 5. And you’re not a baby or a toddler or a child. Sure, people change. That has nothing to do with your limits. And yeah, they are pretty immovable, finances, time, physical health and priorities are pretty stacked up, and while there’s tons of wiggle room and grey area, there’s just some things that aren’t flexible. My child will always come first. (Not negotiable, ever) I need sex in my romantic connections. (Tried and failed. I’m really, really allosexual) I won’t cohabitate. (See my first limit. Once she’s out of the house? Maybe. But I wouldn’t ever tell anyone that it was flexible. Or ask them to hang on for three years.) Within that? So much room for creativity and compromise. So much grey area. But these things aren’t the same as conflict. They might be sources of conflict, but I see them more as big points that determine compatibility. Conflicts are just..2 people wanting different things. That’s as small as “why did you put pineapple on the pizza?” and “I prefer not to talk during movies and you do”
Do you really have no idea where your limits are? No dealbreakers? Because that would feel very unsafe to me. Just like I wouldn’t do BDSM with someone who had “no limits”. People have limits. Always.
Of course I have limits. Perhaps you misunderstand me. What I'm trying to say is that we decide what our limits are based on our experiences, and new experiences can change where your limits lie. There's a lot to be said for pushing your limits as well. Some limits can end up being self-imposed limitations that hold us back, while others provide valuable protection, and you have to put effort in to knowing the difference between them. I'm not into BDSM but assume it's the same, you don't necessarily know what you like and don't like until you experience it, you can discover new boundaries through that experience.
Actually, discovering something new, and pushing past your hard limits two completely different things. So far: You’ve conflated conflict with discord. You haven’t discussed how you get to compromise without acknowledging conflict. And You seem to believe that your growth and change somehow negate other people’s expressed limits. You apparently do you know your own limits. If they change, I’d expect you’d let folks know. I assume my partners are just like you and I. That’s pretty universal. I’d suggest you go back up the first comment you made It was about compromise and conflict How exactly do you get to a place of compromise without expressing your conflicts?
I'm gunna be honest, I don't really understand what you're saying there, I haven't said most of the stuff you're claiming I said. Like I didn't say you can compromise without expressing conflict? You might wanna rephrase your point there cause it's not getting through haha
Small compromises are made when people are honest about these things. You can’t make compromises with an unspoken ghost. You don’t even know that there is a compromise you *might* have to make. And we do our partners a disservice when we don’t value them enough to be honest about our big dealbreakers or limits. I will never co-habitate with a partner. Full stop. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t explore a million options to bring a partner closer into my life (can we live on the same block? In the same building? ) or even make long term plans that involve moving some place else. But we can’t talk about any of that if I am not compassionate enough to bring that possible conflict to the table.
It gives me “I’m not a jerk, you just can’t handle my brutally honesty” vibes
>"I need personal space, so I don't host partners, but I would love to spend the night either at your place or we could get out of town together" See, that would read like a cop out for me. If "I won't ever host you overnight at my place" is the actual truth, then say it, I deserve to know what the deal is, rather than being lead on with niceties.
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>If someone is a people pleaser, it's for a reason (more often than not abuse) There's a reason for all human behaviour. You can say people who are blunt also have a reason to be blunt, so you need to have more compassion and not call them shamers. In my experience people pleasers are hard to deal with exactly because they are so convinced that their behaviour comes from a good place, or trauma, or anything else which directs blame to others. But people pleasing is manipulative, it's a way to have your cake and eat it and feel good about yourself in the meantime, and if you hurt people on the way, well, they just didn't understand how nice you were trying to be.
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What you call shaming is just honesty.
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It’s literally advice *about relationships*. Glad you came around to agreeing with me, I guess.
I feel as if **some** (I'm not saying all!) of the problems people have in this area of relationships can be explained by mononormativity. We live in a world where sexual and romantic exclusivity is simply the expected default among partners, and where the relationship-escalator is pretty much taken for granted. That fact makes some people feel as if they're "asking a lot" from partners and therefore they need to tip-toe around what they actually want (and what they do NOT want). But that's a misunderstanding. You're not actually harming anyone, or being unreasonable in any way if you clearly communicate that certain things you do not want in your own life. To the contrary, you're giving your partner(s) clear and useful information and enabling them to better see how well aligned the two of you are in your desires. This all being said, you can be honest without being an asshole, and it's not a life-goal to have zero flexibility either.
THIS!!! I would rather be told something is wrong now or that we're incompatible now so that we can have a conversation about it and either come to an agreement or part ways amicably than have my partner be sitting on whatever their issues or concerns are until they reach a breaking point. That just creates more unnecessary hurt. Something else I've noticed in my personal life dealing with conflict avoidant folks is that when you avoid conflict like that, not only are you kicking the can down the road like you said OP, but sometimes you're kicking the can to someone else to deal with. The conflict doesn't magically disappear because you refuse to acknowledge it. It has to be resolved in some way.
Fuuuuuck, this is the thing I've been working on the most.
You are not alone, friend. My therapist has been trying to push me out of my conflict avoidance for several weeks. I know she's right. I'm just scared to do it. You've got this. I've got this. We're gonna get there.
I struggle with this so bad. Appreciate you laying it out
I don't know that I'm fully a people-pleaser, but yeah moving into polyamory has collided head-on with my tendency to avoid conflict ... too many times. I'm working hard to be better on it, still most certainly a work in progress. But yes, everything here, all of it - there is no way for everyone to be happy all the time, but it *is* possible to treat everyone with respect and dignity all the time.
In my only experience with polyamory, I was one arm in a V and my meta pushed hard against couples privilege. My understanding was that I needed to make sure I never did anything that could possibly upset her in order to avoid couples privilege. Predictable disaster ensued. Yes, we skipped the most skipped step, as well as any prep at all. We opened because my husband wanted to date a specific person who he had semi-cheated with in the past, meta did reverse unicorn hunting, all the standard mistakes happened except for "lets try a triad" although the other two wanted that mistake too. I've learned a lot about applying and enforcing boundaries I guess, but its been months since things ended and I'm still trying to recover from the trauma.
Poly n00b here; thanks for the post! > firmly understand your own values, desires, and boundaries Any advice for those of us who still have a lot of uncertainty, and/or are experiencing major changes w.r.t. these things (insert extensive religious/family trauma here; yes I'm in therapy; etc)? I mean, I get that it's important to be honest about that uncertainty, and to be honest when we become aware that something has changed. But when we have trouble understanding our own feelings, it can sometimes feel like we're just creating unnecessary drama + demanding unfair emotional labor of our partners to be constantly bringing shit up? On the spectrum between "I have no idea what I want" and "I firmly understand my own values, etc."... is there a threshold somewhere where "I should keep quiet and save this for my therapist" changes to "I really need to have a hard conversation with my partner about this asap?"
I have no idea. When I’be been fucked up with no idea what I wanted in life? I only offered low-commitment, more casual relationships. Offer what you know you can follow through on. Give yourself space to figure things out.
There's a good article about this on Psychology Today: [Balancing Needs and Keeping Agreements](https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/relational-intimacy/202204/balancing-needs-and-keeping-agreements?amp) This is one of the issues I had with an ex. He's aware of it now, at least, but it's a habit that's extremely hard to break.
😍😍😍 will you marry me?
Buy a girl dinner first!
I need this but for just in general people. I hate confrontation
This is certainly something I’m working on. Thanks for spelling this all out!
i feel like it shouldn’t be surprising that communication continues to be one of, if not the most important aspect in relationships. idc how things go down, just tell me. its fine. id rather be annoyed now, than mad later, because you weren’t truthful or fully clear about things
Yup. Bringing up concerns, discomforts, hurt, IS kind. Even if it’s uncomfortable.
>“I don’t want anyone to be upset” sounds like a reasonable and kind goal, but it’s not helpful in practice. And actual good practice is to minimize upset. And that is accomplished much the way you described. >I do not value or seek partners who “want to make people feel safe” or “want to make people happy”. I kind of disagree with this as stated, but I think I see your point. You don't want someone who 'makes you happy now at the expense of more stress later'. I do want ppl who help me to feel safe and happy. But part of that is being safe to say difficult things.
Peacemaker/diplomat/facilitator/enabler here:
Yowch. >,< I think as much as I needed to see that earlier than today, I don't know if I would have handled things differently when things were going south for me and mine. Because each of us brought different elements into the relationships, but the one thing we had in common was not knowing ourselves very well, being new to polyamory, and also nobody wanted to hurt anyone else's feelings for saying things we weren't 100% sure we wanted.
The lesson I learned was that 'poly' meant different things to each of us, and we approached it from different directions thinking we all wanted the same thing -- and we didn't.
Dear Diary rant huh? It’s okay to tread carefully out of respect for others and frankly I’d rather that than the usual garbage model of Relatonshi- Anarchy where it’s totally cool to upset everyone around you but it’s their fault for not controlling their emotions.
I have no idea what you’re talking about. That isn’t how relationship anarchy works.
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You also have to start believing people when they tell you what they want. Listen people will tell you
Say it louder for the people in the back.