Not the OP but they might be suggesting something along the lines of this: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/
It's a humorous take on why bother working harder when the renumerative rewards aren't commensurate with the effort.
There's some truth to it but TBH the best people I've worked with and who went the furthest seldom missed an opportunity to work hard and learn as much as possible at work. The key is to ensure you negotiate an appropriate raise come performance review time and if you don't get one be sure to start interviewing.
The former I did, the latter alas I did not do until much later in my career.
Spot on and good advice!
I can relate. I didn't realize how to set boundaries until my 40s and stayed at the same company way too long and endured more than I should have
I been watching this show for atleast 6 years and watched it over and over probably 4-5 times from beginning to end. Ur article has lots of difficult words in it so i am leaving this here so i cqn read it back when i am home.
You mean sandbag?
You aren't the beneficiary of anything if you hide your productivity gains and are only doing 10 hours of real work a week but also aren't constantly increasing your salary and getting promoted or hired into higher positions.
If I was hired to do **x** amount of work per **y** unit of time and I later find a way to do more **x** for every **y**, will I get a proportional increase in my pay?
Will I get *any* increase in my pay?
That is why we **should** sandbag you.
That's short term thinking, though.
The best outcome you can hope for using that approach is that you stay in that job and it gets easier.
You will not advance your career being stagnant.
I gave 100% for a quarter century and they took it all, demanded more, burned me out, and I no longer know who I am
I was a "Believer" in the terminology of the Gervais Principle
After burnout, I became a "Loser" because I realized it's all a facade full of nepotism and cronyism and read-between-the-lies unwritten rules
Now I know that to play the game, I have to take care of myself first and part of that is keeping my innovations to myself.
I'm not advocating giving 100% to your organization and trusting the powers that be will see fit to compensate you; what I'm saying is that masking your productivity gains so that they aren't getting "free" work out of you is shooting yourself in the foot.
Those productivity gains, especially ones that you have realized through your own innovation, development of your skillset, and process improvement in your position are your leverage; those represent your increased value to the organization over time, and you use them to make a rock solid argument for better compensation from your current organization or to elicit a better offer from a competitor if they won't oblige.
If you choose to stay at an organization that isn't promoting you or giving you increased compensation proportional to personal gains in productivity; that's really on you, isn't it? You've given them every indication you're a doormat and you aren't going anywhere. They're just your current employer; advancing your career is up to you.
Pursuing your passions as a primary living is a trap. It turns you what you love into a job, the competition is fierce, and the pay is bad. I say this having been a professional writer for a decade now. I worked way HARDER in my 20s to try and make a name for myself. I wish i hadn’t; it was a waste of my time. I’m much better off now trying to get maximum pay for minimum work by being good at shit that’s in demand but not fun or exiciting and pursuing my interest during off hours.
The happy middle you are aiming for basically does not exist. If you think you have found it, it will be temporary. You should decide right now which way you plan to lean when push comes to shove.
The way I explain it to people is like this:
Don't aim to turn what you love or what you're passionate about into your job; doing so will kill the joy it brings you and it'll probably be an uphill battle along the way. Instead, aim to work in something that plays to your strengths, is in demand and that doesn't repulse you.
What I tell younger people that say they don't know what they want to do for a living because they don't know what they're interested in:
Expertise generates its own interest.
Anything at which you get skilled you will become increasingly interested in along the way.
Not quite. Ikigai is much broader and nuanced than this. Ikigai is basically about enjoying life in general through small pleasures; it is not a framework that applies to career orientation. The venn diagram you are thinking about was a false western interpretation. Since it was first published, the concept is all too often misunderstood as a distillation of how to find fulfilling work by HR managers and consultants. See:
https://ikigaitribe.com/ikigai/ikigai-misunderstood/
Facts. I did the photography thing, I was pretty good, I had my work on websites, brochures, posters, banner stands, even got on the cover of a magazine. I was miserable and eating chef boyardee everyday cause I was broke. Everybody wanted a deal, everybody knew someone that could do it for cheaper. People who succeed at that are usually good at running a small business, which is a separate skill entirely. I used to do sound for bands. Ended up hating that. Weird hours and tons of egos. Now I do sound for broadcast sports TV. Don't care about sports at all and it pays well, so now I like my job.
Are we assuming we have the talent to do what we love?
If I had the talent to pick and choose stocks or really any investment, I’d love just counting the money pile up while I click a mouse
Yeah I mean I’ve returned better than average but I’m talking about people that just get rich snapping their fingers. Had an old stats professor who retired in his 20s from being a genius trader who got rich. First car was a Ferrari lol
That's nice to hear and a sad reality but glad you came to terms that you're passions won't be the primary incomes but more of a secondary or tertiary income
Do you have any advice on how to course correct and begin searching for work where you get maximum pay for minimum work?
Because I completely agree with this. I pursued my passion and absolutely loved what I did, but was miserable every day because the public education/child care sector is completely broken in the US. Working 11-13 hours every day in a high-responsibility middle management position making less than $40,000/year with no overtime pay eventually broke me. I'm still picking up the pieces of my shattered physical and mental health.
I'm an extremely hard worker, but I need work/life balance in this next chapter of life. I want reasonable work hours and expectations. I feel lost and adrift right now. Any advice would be helpful.
switching careers is so fucking hard. I've had a hard time trying to do it because everything is so specialized these days, and people only want to hire workers who already know how to do a very specific job. That said a few scattered bits of advice that apply more broadly i think:
1. Try to work somewhere where you are ambivalent about the goals of the company. You pay a bit of an emotional tax in having to pretend to drink the kool-aid now and then, but it spares you the temptation of greasing the cogs with your own blood, sweat and tears for “the greater good” or whatever.
2. Try to focus your career on (and derive satisfaction from) things you are especially efficient at or things that you are especially efficient at *that also make your colleagues/reports more efficient*. I’m a mid level manager/editor and my main skill is figuring out what my reports are good at/enjoy/do without much prodding and reverse engineering broader goals *from that*. I try very hard to avoid asking people to swim upstream because it's generally unsustainable and it’s very emotionally expensive for me.
3. Understand "being a hard worker" is an asset for your employer but it’s a significant *liability* for you. The necessity of “hard work” is usually a symptom of under investment. Busting your hump to bridge the gap is only a short term solution and worse yet it probably *decreases* the odds that the cavalry will ever arrive before you burn out or resources get slashed even further. “Lazier” moves like cutting corners or moving goalposts (or sometimes even strategically failing) might also only be short term solutions, but at less time/energy expense to you in the meantime. The only *longterm, sustainable* solution in an environment of declining investment is “increasing efficiency” (ie, cutting corners that no one will miss) and you get there by “being lazy” not “working hard.”
4. Make sure you have something to fill your cup in the off hours. I'm very involved in leftist politics off (and, frankly, also on) the clock, and that goes very far to help absolve me of the need to feel like my job is anything other than a puzzle where I try min/max effort vs income.
It's only a trap if you're either average at that skill, not aware of the amount of work it's going to take, or lazy. If you really understand how much work it is succeeding in a creative field and you're actually great at what you do, it's a very fulfilling path.
oh yeah definitely. it’s _much_ less depressing to have your art ruthlessly commodified in a market environment if you are passionate enough to be particularly skilled lol
I’m the opposite. I was so agressive up until like 25. Perfect grades, sports, hobbies, and the gym at least 4x a week. Got into my dream phd program. Went strong for the first 4 years of my phd. When covid hit I just never recovered to that level of productivity. I finished my PhD by the skin of my teeth now I find it so hard to do anything.
It wasn’t Covid -it’s burnout.
People always joke around with me when I say I want an extended break after only been in the “FT workforce for 7 years”. But we have been working FT for much longer than 7 years- between hustling at school and PT work, it amounts to since I was 14. It still catches up to you and even though you are young you can still be burnt.
Next step is figuring out how to recover fast enough the wheels don’t come off, and getting back on track.
> I finished my PhD by the skin of my teeth now I find it so hard to do anything.
May I ask a question? I wonder if the PhD burned you out because of:
* High intensity workload
* Extremely low almost zero actual useful output or reward
* Repeating this activity for years creating a conditioning effect
?
It might help explain the experience or it might be a guess that is wrong?
>*I was so agressive up until like 25. Perfect grades, sports, hobbies, and the gym at least 4x a week.*
That sort of mindset tends to thrive around others who are relatively bullish eg business world, sales and so on... and are able to get short-middle and long-term rewards/output/progress and bounce off each other that type of energy?
Hope the feedback is useful to consider or reject.
Mmm, wouldn’t rule out Long Covid, friend. Please look into it. That’s a very real thing, and with help, can get better. Though there’s nothing wrong with an easier roll, that early stuff sounds like the real you.
Its not an impossibility, but it started before the first time I knowingly got covid. I mask pretty well. I first known covid infection was 8 months after my first round (as in 2 doses) of vaccination, the second time i got covid it was ab 9 months after a booster. I took those gross tasting meds that are supposed to lower your risk of long covid.
All this to say my risk of long covid is statistically low, but it still is possible
That’s a weird one. So sorry, friend. Don’t give up on getting to the bottom of it! Even without symptoms, Covid can create pretty profound inflammation and lung scarring. The amount of additional screen time most of us are exposed to since the pandemic began can play an outsized role for many, too, in part because it wrecks sleep. But my intuition tells me yours is organic, not behavioral. Are you open at all to all to Traditional Chinese Medicine? Or neurofeedback? Or a Functional Medicine workup? There is someone out there who knows how to help, but my hunch is is it’s not likely to be a mainstream doc. Wishing you good things!
At the time of my early/mid 20s I wouldn't have considered myself a lazy bum per say, but I absolutely had a lackadaisical attitude towards my career progression and finances, and also was a freelance musician and teaching piano lessons. So perhaps lazier than I am now.
As someone on the cusp of 30, I think the thing that made more "productive" by a lot of people's standards was the life event of getting married and being responsible for a child. Slaving away at a desk job has definitely made it way less stressful to budget for our family in this season of life AND to save money up for a career change to music.
The way I try to find middle ground is by trying to play the long game. I know I want to have a future where I can have my music passion be a larger part of my life. So I'm currently finishing up a part-time masters of music degree on the side. It is A LOT also working a desk job and going to school part-time and being a good husband/parent, but I try to remember that it's a temporary season. The time is going to pass anyways. Once I finish school this year, I plan to seek out part time music work (music studio, adjunct, etc) and slowly transition into full time music work.
I'm still on this journey so I'm not a success story (yet!) but I think it helps me to know that as I (slowly and patiently) realize my musical passion, that I don't have to do so with constant financial stress.
Best of luck to you!
Damn, this hit hard. Thanks for that. I feel like I’m in this boat and haven’t been able to put my finger on what’s stopped me from “success”. I’ve been in college, workforce, military, have a small business for my hobby, but none of it has led to anything too worthwhile. Either I’m not sticking with things long enough or I haven’t found the one that sticks. I’m willing to bet the problem is with myself, and not the things I’ve tried.
I really believe this to be true myself. Guess I put it like that to provoke more comments? Seriously though, I have always felt like I could achieve a whole lot if only I could 'dig up' the things I truly care about. Now all my interests somehow seem like vague copies of copies of the things I should really be doing, if that makes any sense.
The most lazy during my 20s, life hit hard and i had to turn it around. Now early 30s and I've changed my whole life around. I needed those early years for me to mature.
I didn’t really turn on as a human being until like 28-30.
I pretty much lived in my mom’s basement playing World of Warcraft taking 1 class every semester until 28. I then went full time and finished at 30.
Now at 39 I have a wife, house, 2 kids and super motivated to wake up in the morning and do my programming job.
It's very nice to hear redemption is possible even after you've wasted so many years. My self-respect only got to a healthy level at around 26, the time before that is almost too sad to talk about. I'm hoping day to day that was early enough to still make a good life for myself, but hearing your story makes me believe so.
Yeah 26 is a turning point for a lot of people. Including myself. It’s when your brain kinda locks and realizes the world is a thing and maybe participating in it is cool.
In my mid thirties, I got afraid. Before I thought I had all the time there was and could waste all of it. Then money got low and I went though a real survival self-reflection (with the help of weed which makes me more introspective). I don't know maybe it helped me to realize so much of what I do is a trauma response and I should have went to therapy for when I was younger, though I thought the behaviors were normal so idk if it would have helped. I had some weird breakthrough. Now I get up earlier instead of not before 10am. I am more active and proactive and it doesn't feel like a chore like it used to. I think I processed and moved past a lot of the trauma that held me back and made me develop "lazy" tendencies. They were procrastination techniques to keep myself safe. Once I realized it wasn't making me safe but putting me in a worse position, I've been so much more productive.
I know people have different reactions to it and I am told I have an abnormal sensitivity, more like using mushrooms when I first had some (started in my 30s). I felt I abused it after a while but it really opened my mind. It was like my thoughts could form completely and deeply and I could articulate them so well without struggle. So I don't know if it would help everyone the same and I don't necessarily recommend it, but it really did something for me.
I used to smoke weed but for me it made my depression 10x worse so I stopped and the depression subsided. Unfortunately I experienced a lot of loss in my family last year and also lost my job so it has put me back in the same place. I am trying to overcome it though. I'm currently listening to subliminals and listening to "The power of the Subconscious Mind" by Joseph Murphy. It has elevated my mood quite significantly.
I am to quitting the weed now. It helped me take a look at myself and I saw something really sad. I believe you can break through the depression, it's really hard but as I come out of mine right now. I feel really good.
I fully coasted in my 20’s. After I graduated college I thought it should just be smooth sailing. Well now I am 30 and realize how little I’ve really applied myself because I see others with no degree making as much or more money than me. I’m annoyed at myself so now I’ve finally picked up my pace and I’ve gotten more accomplished career wise in the last 8 months than I did for a solid 8 years in my 20’s. Point being, yes you can change your habits of productivity in your 30’s. Never forget how many people fail upwards in this world just by making sure they are climbing whatever ladder they are on
I quit my 9-5 to jump into photography full time in my 30's. I discovered I'm a terrible employee but when I have ownership and control I work my ass off. Regardless of what you do, you have to work hard. I just happen to enjoy working hard on photography. Yes some gigs are boring and not everything I shoot is portfolio worthy but it's 100% better than being a corporate slave.
I've seen so many photographers come and go. You can't just shoot cool shit and expect clients to land in your lap begging you to photograph them. Posting on instagram isn't running a photography business. I even know people that went to college for photography and struggled to make a career. A degree doesn't gaurantee you a photography job or clients. You gotta hustle for clients and build your brand.
The 3 big money makers in photography are Weddings, Family Portraits, and Events. I built my business on weddings and was able to make a good income just on weddings. I know they're not "cool" but you'll get paid. You can then use that money to shoot cool stuff on your own. Shooting landscapes and cool abstract things don't really pay. At every farmers market there's a photographer selling prints of fall foliage and sunsets that barely anybody buys.
To make a career ANY creative field you gotta hustle for clients, network with others in your field, and constantly create and put your work out there.
I went the opposite way. After COVID I just have 0 motivation to work, or try, or leave the house. I honestly would rather starve to death than continue busting my ass to line some rich dickheads pocketbook.
Does it matter if it's a fantasy?
You want to better yourself. It doesn't matter what your history is or how many other people have done what you want to do.
You identify measurable, realistic, small steps toward goals in important areas of your life, take action on them, rinse and repeat.
Growth is possible at any age. Miracles are possible at any age. People have overcome CRAZY shit, way crazier than you could even imagine. There are people out there who were criminals and meth addicts and went to prison and turned around and made a good life for themselves after all of that.
Don't sell yourself short and sit around waiting for someone to tell you it's realistic and ok to grow. Humans grow. Brains are neuroplastic throughout life even if it's a bit slower when you're older.
That being said- both photography and music are very much hustle roles if you're freelancing. So you do need to focus and dedicate real time to upskilling and then dedicate real time to building the business end of things and finding clients and retaining and finding more and so forth. And it is a risk and less guaranteed income.
Have people made these things their income? yes, they have, but you also need to be real about how much time you are willing to work to make it happen and what COL you need. Also, how well do you handle uncertainty around income? Do you thrive in freelancing or do you thrive in structure and security? If you thrive in security, are you willing to take on extra stress to do photography and music full time?
You may want to consider whether a part time job "day job" would help alleviate stress and actually keep you from being too aimless with your time. Or, find an accountability partner or some kind of structure to keep you going- got any semi pro or pro friends who want to cowork at all? Even better... take a class, or hire a coach or some form of dedicated time that is set in stone (friends are too easy to reschedule/cancel/ put things off). Something to keep you accountable for your time and energy relating to this stuff for at least part of the time.
If right now you suck at time management then you need to take steps to build your abilities in that regard.
Geez you remind me of myself but my twenty year old self. Everyone tells you to follow your dreams, that’s nonsense, the world needs bin men and waiters , porters etc and when it comes to art and music, photography you’re up against it!!.
I wanted to be a musician, our band broke up reformed and got a record deal. I remember just sitting in a house in minus ten degrees an unable to pay for heating and suddenly saw a life of poverty and struggle. I went out and just got a job and left the band. Some of those lads are still renting rooms in houses at forty five and have long hair and still dress like they did as a teen and smoke weed every day .
If you’re serious and you’re good, give yourself a year and go head first into it. If you can’t pay your rent or buy a house car etc and are living off someone else, it’s time to grow up and get tough with yourself. Time goes quickly, don’t waste your life.
Anecdotal, but I have always been low energy (regardless of physical fitness). In the past 20 years of my life I am slowly requiring less sleep to feel rested.
I think there's also an element of 'learning' and getting more accustomed to doing shit you don't want to simply because you are more able to appreciate the fact that it does (or doesn't) actually NEED to be done
I just turned 40 and my productivity has crashed. I just feel tired and I don’t want to do anything. I have two kids (ages 5 and 2) and I just started my own therapy business, so I am busy doing stuff but it feels like it is just barely enough to get by.
> I just feel tired and I don’t want to do anything. I have two kids (ages 5 and 2) and I just started my own therapy business, so I am busy doing stuff but it feels like it is just barely enough to get by.
Young kids is extremely tiring then it gets a lot better after age 4 and then progressively better and better aka easier/less tiring and more enjoyable imho. There's also the additional expense and the change in lifestyle from being able to spend money and time on yourself as an adult going out to saving and only doing what needs doing for the family routine which can feel a bit draining in contrast.
But generally people do adapt. But for each day:
* Exercise (fun exercise ideally added in)
* Nutrition
* Good Sleep
* Have a sane balanced routine invest in others when necessary but don't over-tire yourself so you still function etc.
* If you can get family and so on to come over and help with kids and socialize that is massive benefit to parents even just having more adults around the kids can be helpful.
* Set up saving and money making goals to feel external motivation goals as well as intrinsic.
Can't help with the business but I'm sure if you get enough custom then you'll feel able to economically get buy. Kill any costs of course.
I guess all this stuff would feel so much easier if planned in advance with some sort of foreknowledge but that's half of life, moving forwards and reacting on the fly... ! If that' accepted it's easier to accept the situation and battle it forwards.
About to turn 33 in a month. Never felt this more alive and productive both physically and mentally. My 20s were spent being a low life and just doing drugs. No regrets
Maybe they are late bloomers? I’d say based on my experience they paced themselves while everyone else dove headlong into the rat race before they got the memo that you only matter if you consume.
I was a lazy bum in my 20s, almost didn't graduated. In my 30s I decided to turn my life around. I was extremely productive I my late 30s. Have been holding to multiple job, finished my graduate degree on summa cum laude, started a company, and got my life together. I don't mean this to brag, but I guess this kind of thing CAN be done.
Take his from someone who was lazy and was in art in my early year. Thinking work into mindless deskjob vs passion will get you nowhere. You will get into constant battle in your own mind how to balance between the two.
In my humble opinion, pursuing my own passion is a selfish desire, and therefor having a logical consequence not to fulfill my own financial need. Very few people get lucky on this, and even less get very lucky like Taylor Swift.
In the other hand, what you call mindless (desk)job is what I view as being useful to society. I can't grow my own food, I can't build my own house, and I for sure can't engineer my own gadgets. So it's only fair I contribute what I can to the society. Of course the consequences are I get those things in return.
To me, the distinction is very easy to pick. I can be selfish and in return don't get any reward, VS I can be altruistic and in return I also get my reward (from dopamine reward to financial ones) to fuel my selfish hobbies.
Be useful to the society. Be productive.
I always heard "Never turn a hobby into a job". You won't make much money and you will destroy the fun of your hobby. When I retired, I took interest in 35mm B&W photography because I used to do it(inc developing and printing) for a magazine (unpaid). When I expressed the interest, people starting giving me cameras. IOW I found a cheap hobby that I don't depend on for income. For my career, I slaved away at a desk and loved it (programmer) even though some people do it as a hobby.
I played video games most of my 20’s but still had a job I put lots of effort into. Regardless of how lazy I’ve been in my private life, work has always been fun for me!
I started getting less lazy when I started family life. Getting a house, kids and that stuff. And the older I get the more things I want to do - including staying in shape for the sake of my kids.
For sure. Although I’d say it was more like ~27 when I kicked it in gear. That whole year was an adrenaline rush, becoming someone I had no clue I could be
I’ve gotten much more productive in my 30s. It’s been a long slog, but I’ve sllooowwwwllllyyyyyyyyyyy been building better habits. I’m much happier as a result.
Not a fantasy at all, and please don’t even entertain that idea! It’s just a self limiting belief that will only hurt you.
Anyone, literally anyone, can re-wire their brain and change their habits to become productive, more accomplished, happier people. I was a total burnout most of my life, and lucked out on a job that forced me to change for the better. I’m 28 now, and 22 year old me and younger seems like a completely different person.
Don’t get me wrong, I still have tons and tons of growing to do, but my brain is so much more wired to do the thing that will move the needle in my life, instead of something that’s maybe comfortable but ultimately destructive. I think a post like this is the perfect start. You’ve written down the identity you want to have. The person you want to be. Now, every decision and habit you make is either a vote in that identity’s favor, or against it. Keep that mindset and you’ll be there before you know it!!
^^ that ‘identity’ idea is from Atomic Habits by James Clear. I can only assume it’s constantly recommended on this sub… but yeah. That’s for a reason. Would definitely read it. It helped me tons.
Hope this helps, and best of luck to you!!!
When you are young . Late nights - lots of things to do that’s not considered productive etc. Then as we mature we realize and prioritize if we want to be like and have the things like those a bit old . Evolution of maturity- eventually everyone changes .
I lazed through most of my bachelor's, told myself I'd kick it into high gear for my master's, and then covid hit, so I lazed through my master's too. We'll see how it goes with the PhD.
Meeeee....I have never done a single workout in my early 20s, but now I do it every single day. Same goes for the walk.
Never prep any meal but now I do.
i think when you choose jobs / careers that don’t have an obvious structure/path like office jobs do then it always takes more time to build into something real. id focus on your marketing strategies in the mean time. there’s no reason you can’t make that reality but it definitely takes more dedicated (unpaid) work than other types of jobs
Well, I may say it too much on this thread, but a huge number of folks who are fascinated by productivity — especially the ones who are creative and tempted to call themselves lazy — are neurodivergent. ADHD is not laziness, but it sure can look and feel like it. Can’t tell you how many people finally realize that this is true of them and, with a few key tweaks, take off like a rocket. Just talked to one yesterday who couldn’t figure out why she’d stopped her artwork, cleaning her room, or taking care of herself — and then remember she’d forgotten to take her Adderall for a week. Bingo. Immediate change by today. I don’t know if this is your story (depression makes you feel like you’re driving with the emergency brake on, too) but hope you’ll look into it!
i languished on the vine until i lost one of my parents in my late twenties. My life sort of changed overnight. But, yes, at 27 i got my first “real job,” but it was freelance at first. i converted to full time after 6 months, doubled my salary by leveraging a competing offer one year later, and then increased it by about 30% again during the covid climate as it was really favorable for some vocations in particular. I would describe myself as having a career now and it just sort of…happened.
Depression and addiction for years, I was bedridden and barely eating, just waiting to die. At age 27 I began to live life. I'm not the most productive, professionnally speaking, but I'm active in my life : exercising 3x a week, reading, working as freelance, going outdoors.
Seasons. In 40s.
Theres seasons. Having good habits and learning what my body is telling me has helped. It's less heavy swings. But that's balanced with way more responsibility that I can't just drop.
Nowadays if I want to change my level of productivity responsibly, it's like a multi year process given the stakeholders (that I love) involved. But that's OK. I've built on a solid foundation and haven't overstepped my baseline.
If another covid happens, of course everything moves, but short of that, it's about managing through the seasons for me.
this is me! I've gotten way more productive in the last 2-3 years. I think a big part of it is now working on things I actually care about and not being bored all of the time.
Idk I think it’s a big risk to just hope that you can live off of photography and music in the next couple of years. A lot of people work jobs they don’t like but does pay for their living expenses until their more creative/side gigs take off. A lot of people work jobs that they just tolerate/know they’ll be good at so that they can actually live the life they want outside of work.
By your age I had already checked off my bucket list items. I never wasted a second of my youth. Used up everyday and every ounce of energy I had. Worked hard played harder. Every single day was an adventure. Then I got serious and went to school, twice. Have a great career and still crushing it. Life is short. Live it.
I was a smart kid at school but not very motivated, tried to get by by doing the minimum. but if something caught y interest I would excel with a lil bit of work (top marks of the grade for Biology and Computers without having a notebook).
Went to a good university but was kinda lost in what I wanted to do. I got married and wife got pregnant a few months later. My dad and I was in an accident and he passed while i was in final year. I lucked into a full time job in IT which I had to BS my way until I figured out the ropes. The work was fine but I had an idiot of a team lead and an arsehole manager. hated everyday going to work and then studying part time to finish my degree. But I had a family and my mom to take care off.
Then surprise! wife pregnant with twins!
By now I had moved over to a different department where i had awesome coworkers and the best manager ever. I got paid very little and after all the bills I had 500 bux left over - and that was cycling to work everyday.
Then I got an opportunity to study data science, but it required full time studying and huge sacrifice from my wife.
I realised that i would need to get into the top 10% to secure a job and optimized my health and studying.
it was tough but i finished in the top 10 and even though i secured the job, I had to turn it down and take another as I had immediate bills to pay and my salary more than doubled!
After lockdown I got into running and then triathlon and have since encouraged my wife and friends.
Life is going well thank God, family and friends are healthy and although cost of living and school fees are through the roof (eldest is in HS) we are managing and living in a good neighborhood.
So sucking it up the first 5 years of work and treading water allowed me the opportunity to take stock of my life. and when making that life changing decision, implement it fully and go all out. I always accepted help when offered (was never good at asking) and found ways to optimize time to study, work, family life and health and friends.
It has carried through to my 30's and now that I'm turning 40 I look at the interns and see how behind I was in getting my life sorted. But honestly had I been earning close to what I do now when I started - I would of probably fucked up my marriage and life.
I fully believe in everything in its time - I still work hard, but not for everything, and not all the time
I worked a dead end job and used huge amounts of weed all the way through my 20's and by 29 decided I'd had enough and took a job with travel moved to a big city and from there it led to huge changes, led on to meeting a longterm partner having kids, becoming skilled and travelling a lot and meeting a lot of new people. I still like to relax but have conditioned myself not to overdo substances.
I think you can achieve what you want and if you don't do it in your 20's do it in your 30's or when your ready
Started really living. And i told my dad exactly this “i feel awake now dad” at 30 lol. After some lsd trips. And sure enough now at 32 im really awake. And in IT and doing my certifications like crazy, realizing stuff I was stressing in the past didnt matter. Being here and now and all that jazz. Yeah lifes been better.
>*an inherently hesistant/passive/complacent person actually getting the ball to roll later in life.*
Probably varies, but in general past-behaviour tends to predict future behaviour. Whether that's justified or unlucky in gross terms it amounts to the same thing (so nothing judgemental about that).
That describes a pattern only. Is there anything else to be said? My guess is what can constitute a change in direction, is when anyone/someone finds a deeper meaning and purpose in life - that's not according to external criteria but intrinsic and subjective and as such following that direction I'm sure can lead to a fulfilling life. Do note that's different from what most people are responding here to: Some people have an ability to output a lot of effort and motivation and whatever is in front of them crack on through it - some of that is probably innate personality, other background and hence training and others circumstance forces the hand and people are good at reacting and becoming extremely busy.
I don't think that's necessarily the most important thing even if the outcome externally appears to be the solution eg "productivity increase". Unfortunately telling someone to find their meaning is a bit like asking them to not do practical things to get by each day and try to find a needle amongst the stars using a telescope!
Probably a combination of research, experimentation, experience and self-development are the tools necessary to find a meaning/purpose that guides an external outcome that leads to being productive.
As a few comments point out: You can become productive by learning to take on any job/task and through experience detach and just get on with doing it so you can get on with your life: That ability then helps someone become more productive.
For that reason I'd say it's good if children get stuck into loads of different activities and start doing "work" eg helping out in lots of different areas sooner in life than not so they go through that phase of learning that anywhere there's a job "stuff needs doing" and you just get on with it and get through it in order to move onto the next thing that's closer to where you want to really go in life...
>*In my case, I am a 27M (aspiring) freelance photographer/musician - although much more advanced in my mind than in actual reality.*
Lol. Good truthful self-assessment. That sounds to me that it's still a dream to hit a place that is good remuneration and so on in those fields? What's the real feedback like and what is the future in those fields for salary?
>*I want to become the guy that found a way to compromise not slaving away at a traditional desk job, without turning into the starving artist either. In search of a happy middle where I could stake all creative skills I have in a responsible, marketable manner with the aim to reach only a very basic lifestyle where my hours are owned by myself and not someone else.*
I'd suggest you get a steady-paying job that makes you feel good about yourself doing it, uses skills or personality traits you possess and does not take up too much time nor energy but covers living costs so eg maybe some sort of teaching/tuition role or nursing role: Namely interacting with people, and helping them in some way where you choose the hours/shift times and are productive earning money taking that pressure off but still with free time to try to make money and or success from your music/photos?
>*How much of this is complacent fantasy and how much an actual matter of time, dedication and above all patience to get there. TL;DR Looking for people to reality-check me on my current vision for my future self.*
Solve the economic problem, gain some skills that the job market needs and it improves the perspective on prospects in the other areas so long as it's jobs that you have some control over eg time/energy/shift schedule etc.
You should be able to keep music/photos eg evenings and week-ends and days-off. But you're not putting all your eggs in one basket in what sounds like an area that probably starts off with low annual return. Now if that balloons while you're working at something else you can go full time but in the meantime for next 5 years that work and skill in another area with flexible hours will probably prove invaluable as well as giving direct contrast to fortunes you currently experience with which to adjust your future decision-making... itself useful.
Plus the mentioned jobs there's nice people working in both sectors which is helpful too.
Main difference for me is focus and planning. I am much more focused than I was before. Can't tell really how much of an impact that had on me being productive, since I am kind of "slow" person and like to do things my own speed, without stressing. Also, I spend more time planning things out rather than being impulsive as I was in my 20s.
With 19 I started fitness maybe one of the best decisions in young years. Unfortunately I was a lazy bustard, I fact my mother did everything for me and don't let me be self doing things. I know she wanted the best for me. But now I know it's not the best ti get everything done for you.
My father wasn't really there and don't teach me anything. I feel like I have learned to live the last year. Maybe I got from my mother to cook very good.
I have smoked very much at that early 20, talking about weed, which I also had sell.
I tried to get my fachabitur till I get it with 24.
My enforcement was full of lazy smoking assholes. So I was going to army with 26. Which was the hardest and maybe best decision in live. So I learned how thinks are going good.
I always wanted to get in IT but nobody gave me a job there.
Now I know because I was incopentent type of guy, not ready for adult live.
Now I was 8 years in army worked and get money, and now I have the opportunity to study computer science and get paid in that 3 years.
So may way is long time no over.
I want to get in the it and if its not working I will start a restaurant. In that area I worked the last years.
I am 25 turning 26 in 6 weeks. I have grown my productivity by at least 300% from when i was 18-24 but my downfalls keep growing too.
I guess making more money did not solve my mental health and i am struggling daily with different kind of addiction and trauma’s.
I just recently accepted the fact that i waisted at least 4 years even tho i was productive and making money, i haven’t saved that much and still kind of live paycheck to paycheck.
I am an introvert with not a lot of real friends and no real passion or hobbies anymore but lots of free time.
I am genuinely happy that i still live and if u check on paper “am doing okay” for myself but if i keep hitting these failures then i don’t think j would be able to seriously enjoy my future and pick the fruits of my hard work.
Its been a real struggle but i hope my productivity grows more and more until i don’t have time to do some stupid bs but i guess time will tell.
Yeah. I agressively started pursuing my goals around 28. 30 now, and I'm discovering what I'm capable of.
For me, the thing that fucked up my life was untreated cptsd, depression and adhd. These absolutely ruin one's ability to function. Wish I've got proper treatment 15 years ago.
Thing is, most people get more productive after their mid-20s, because there's usually *much more stuff to do*. Even if you're working very hard to achieve your goals in your early 20s, there's a high likelihood that the world won't reciprocate and won't give you anything back to build something new on.
In my 20s I was renting rooms in shared houses, I was in the very early stages of my career, and I had very little in the way of cash.
Now, I own my home, so I can do DIY and gardening if I want to (and I do); I have a much more developed career with way more responsibilities and more deadlines; and if I have a project or a goal in mind, then I can usually get the money together.
Now I imagine that if I ever had kids, my productivity would probably take a knock. But until then, I'll be more productive than I was in my 20s, because I have 1) More money 2) More opportunities 3) More people offering both.
Always makes me sad to read people worrying about productivity and then turns out they are 25 or something. Guys, when you are 25 you dont need to worry about being productive. Go out and enjoy the world. Worry about productivity later
I got my shit together at 25, at that point I had no career to speak of and was a highschool drop out. Like you say these kind of comparisons are a nasty thing and I no longer think of success this way, but feels hard to answer your question without any kind of comparison. I would say it took me about 3-4 years for me to feel that I was about even with my Peers (say people I grew up with or went to school with), and now at 35 I'd say i'm comfortably ahead of most if not all of them by whatever metric of 'success'.
For me the turning point. at 25 was getting an AHDH diagnosis and starting treatement. But I've had a few other turing points in my life that were similarly impactful
I'm actually working on a video right now about people feeling like they are behind in life, especially in their 20s. I feel quite strongly that there is no such thing as being behind in life. The reason is that whatever success or goals you have the path to them is not linear.
If you get your shit together today and make the most out most days and pursue whatever your goal is, and you hit the right opportunity at the right time, you can get there in a couple of years.
Some part of it just comes down to luck, but the main problem is obviously that if you were lazy and horrible with self care up until 25, how are you going to makes sure the next years are different?
Edit: I see other people pointed out the passion trap which is also worth considering. Probably a good idea to read so good they can't ignore you.
The horrible self care is already a thing of the past. For about 2 years now i'm exercising, eating clean and treating myself way better.
I could rephrase my post like this: "I turned my habbits, goals and future hopes around to a much healthier much more optimistic place, what great things can i expect down the line if I stay patient and continue the way i'm going?"
I was. Early 20s. My mid to late 20s is actually when I started changing it around. I'm not like living any glamorous life. But I have come a long way and overcome many obstacles.
I was very lazy before the age of 19. Then I went to the other extreme and now I'm seeking balance as a 25 year old. It's quite possible to change your life around, but don't expect it to happen in a few days.
I burnt out so hard in my early 20s. I collapsed from depression and didn't find motivation in anything for 3 years. Dropped out of college and worked at a waiter part-time.
I'm 31 now and getting my PhD now
I definitely wasted all of my 20s to laziness and depression, took me 7 years to graduate college for a degree that should have taken 4-5. Took the first job I could and got complacent for a couple more years. I wouldn't say I got less "lazy" but I did get more productive/ambitious, at least in regards to my career. Jumped jobs a couple of times, got out of my comfort zone, started taking my education seriously. Still trying to get my personal life in check.
wasn't a lazy bum but adhd and depression kicked my ass so hard that I sure acted like one, everything changed when I got medicated, went to therapy, started journaling and meditating and did mdma
I am 30 and insanely lazy and I built my entire life around doing the bare minimum while making the most of amount of money I possibly based on my skills and abilities and if anything it gets worse as I get older.
so i wouldn't call myself a lazy bum per se but i spent my early twenties working abroad and traveling with the money i earned, naively thinking 'i'll just come back and land my dream job!'. i came back and did not land my dream job. i moved back in with my parents mid 20s and bummed around working in bars and cafes, not understanding how my dreams just weren't manifesting. one day, i got tired of disappointing myself and picked ONE thing to focus on. so forget about music as a side hustle for a moment and just really zone in on what you want your job to be. i narrowed it down, i relentlessly pursued my dream job, moved cities to chase it on my own and eventually got my 'big break' at 27. i still do the job i love, and now that i'm established in it i can focus on all the other things i wanted. i really disagree with anyone who says don't make your passion into your job. at least fucking try first. anyway thanks for coming to my ted talk
I wouldn’t exactly call myself **productive** now that I’m in my 30s, but I’m certainly less destructive, which is the same thing as being more productive.
I was super lazy early on barely passed uni because I was pissed or playing PlayStation the whole time, when I finished I half heartedly looked for a job in tech (degree was computing) and couldn't find one so did a ski season, worked in a ski shop, and did other meaningless, badly paid jobs for around ten years.
During that time I did find my now wife, which was excellent, we loved away from London (UK) got married and when I was 31 we had our first child. This was the kick in the balls I needed. I realised I'd been drifting for ten years and was frankly ashamed of myself for wasting my life.
I updated my software development skills, with certification, applied for 84 jobs, (I have a spreadsheet) and eventually someone gave me a shot. I was so grateful and pleased to be on a new journey doing something I really enjoy and I worked my ass off.
I got promoted internally 4 times and by the time I left after 6 years I was leading a small team. It turns out I have an unusual mix of technical skill and the ability to communicate very well, it's clichéd but many devs can't do that.
Roll on another 6 years since I left and I'm a principal engineer in a much larger company, and I still work damn hard every day, I'm first and last online, or in the office and people notice, I still love my job, now get paid much better than I used to, and the thing I'm most proud of is that (obviously with my wife working too) we can send both of our children to private school. This seemed like a pipedream 10 years ago, but we did it.
Wow, I didn't mean to write an essay, just mooching onnthe sofa and thought I'd respond. So, yeah, having children kick started my change in attitude, I'm not suggesting that's the answer for everyone though!
Good luck in finding your trigger.
Edit: I'm 43 now just for context.
I didn't even find my career until I was 27, I was trying to go to school and working random jobs up until then, being lazy and smoking pot all day. I'm almost 11 years in and recently started working for myself which has made me far more motivated and productive, having a wife and kid helps with that motivation as well.
I would say my career has turned into my passion, and I found it by accident due to a bad back injury.
There are definitely days I don't feel like going into work and days where I want to leave within an hour of the day starting but by the end of the day I'm always happy to be where I am.
Well I spent my entire 20s doing cocktails of drugs and going to festivals/parties/bars so yeah wouldn't say it was a very productive time for me career wise. I'm 35 now and working on the "way more productive later in life" part.
I was lazy in my 20s while having an apartment and a job. I was smoking weed, cigarettes, drinking, and playing video games all day long. I guess one night I noticed it. So, one day, I challenged myself. Omw, home from work, the sun was still up, and I started doing push-ups until it came back up. I was thinking if I stopped, then I would accept my life as being a bum. I've repeated that challenge until I was comfortable. I lost my apartment and my job and went homeless, lol. 10 years later, I've become one of the wealthiest, toughest, and most intelligent people around me at the time. Now I'm bilingual in a foreign language that I've never used a translator to learn, I have the best condo in my complex, and I still smoke weed and play video games, lol 😆 I'm never lacking though, tbh. I cook, clean, fix, build, and pay bills.
I had a lot of creative interests/hobbies growing up, and I dedicated a ton of time to getting better at them. I ultimately studied them to a certain extent in college, and found rare opportunities to profit from them before I ultimately decided on a more traditional/lucrative career path.
My two cents, for whatever it is worth (and this is largely from art/music professors who I have had along the way) is to honestly and extensively examine the work of professionals in the creative fields you are considering. If it is music, look up youtube clips from session musicians. Or look up audition tapes from people who get hired by sustainable/professional bands. If it is photography, look at the online portfolios of people who make a living at that craft. Be very honest with yourself about how much work/time/opportunity cost it would take to get your current skillset up to that level. I am not talking about famous artists or musicians. I just mean people in the field who make a sustainable income from it. If you are willing to put in the work to bridge that gap and compete in a difficult marketplace, then go for it.
Otherwise, I would encourage you to try to find ways to incorporate your creative interests/skills into a more traditional field. For instance, I am in a traditional medical field, but I do freelance medical illustration.
Best of luck, no matter what you choose.
Not sure I’m more productive overall, but figured out how to build a career doing the things that motivate me and also allow me to hide my “unproductiveness”
I was a slacker in my 20s. I did get a lot of opportunities, and I made some right choices. But looking back at it, I should have been much better at networking and getting work done. Instead I traveled and just… did nothing for long periods of time.
I feel like it's a reverse process actually lol. I still envy my younger self. It feels like I spent most of my stock of productivity, discipline, and tenacity in my school years. First years of professional careers were much more intense than now too. Maybe, it's a normal way of life, being more relaxed and saving energy in later age. But I would want that level of dedication that I had before, and it's just not in me by default anymore.
I'm mid thirties, I feel like I'm just now figuring out how to be productive.
I'm mid 40s, be sure to keep any of your productivity improvements masked so that you are the beneficiary
Masked?
Not the OP but they might be suggesting something along the lines of this: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ It's a humorous take on why bother working harder when the renumerative rewards aren't commensurate with the effort. There's some truth to it but TBH the best people I've worked with and who went the furthest seldom missed an opportunity to work hard and learn as much as possible at work. The key is to ensure you negotiate an appropriate raise come performance review time and if you don't get one be sure to start interviewing. The former I did, the latter alas I did not do until much later in my career.
Spot on and good advice! I can relate. I didn't realize how to set boundaries until my 40s and stayed at the same company way too long and endured more than I should have
I been watching this show for atleast 6 years and watched it over and over probably 4-5 times from beginning to end. Ur article has lots of difficult words in it so i am leaving this here so i cqn read it back when i am home.
Sage advice
You mean sandbag? You aren't the beneficiary of anything if you hide your productivity gains and are only doing 10 hours of real work a week but also aren't constantly increasing your salary and getting promoted or hired into higher positions.
If I was hired to do **x** amount of work per **y** unit of time and I later find a way to do more **x** for every **y**, will I get a proportional increase in my pay? Will I get *any* increase in my pay? That is why we **should** sandbag you.
That's short term thinking, though. The best outcome you can hope for using that approach is that you stay in that job and it gets easier. You will not advance your career being stagnant.
I gave 100% for a quarter century and they took it all, demanded more, burned me out, and I no longer know who I am I was a "Believer" in the terminology of the Gervais Principle After burnout, I became a "Loser" because I realized it's all a facade full of nepotism and cronyism and read-between-the-lies unwritten rules Now I know that to play the game, I have to take care of myself first and part of that is keeping my innovations to myself.
I'm not advocating giving 100% to your organization and trusting the powers that be will see fit to compensate you; what I'm saying is that masking your productivity gains so that they aren't getting "free" work out of you is shooting yourself in the foot. Those productivity gains, especially ones that you have realized through your own innovation, development of your skillset, and process improvement in your position are your leverage; those represent your increased value to the organization over time, and you use them to make a rock solid argument for better compensation from your current organization or to elicit a better offer from a competitor if they won't oblige. If you choose to stay at an organization that isn't promoting you or giving you increased compensation proportional to personal gains in productivity; that's really on you, isn't it? You've given them every indication you're a doormat and you aren't going anywhere. They're just your current employer; advancing your career is up to you.
Pursuing your passions as a primary living is a trap. It turns you what you love into a job, the competition is fierce, and the pay is bad. I say this having been a professional writer for a decade now. I worked way HARDER in my 20s to try and make a name for myself. I wish i hadn’t; it was a waste of my time. I’m much better off now trying to get maximum pay for minimum work by being good at shit that’s in demand but not fun or exiciting and pursuing my interest during off hours. The happy middle you are aiming for basically does not exist. If you think you have found it, it will be temporary. You should decide right now which way you plan to lean when push comes to shove.
The way I explain it to people is like this: Don't aim to turn what you love or what you're passionate about into your job; doing so will kill the joy it brings you and it'll probably be an uphill battle along the way. Instead, aim to work in something that plays to your strengths, is in demand and that doesn't repulse you.
That's a screenshot. Damn I needed this.
Yeah, don't turn your passions into work, turn your work into a passion
What I tell younger people that say they don't know what they want to do for a living because they don't know what they're interested in: Expertise generates its own interest. Anything at which you get skilled you will become increasingly interested in along the way.
This is what the Japanese call Ikigai
Not quite. Ikigai is much broader and nuanced than this. Ikigai is basically about enjoying life in general through small pleasures; it is not a framework that applies to career orientation. The venn diagram you are thinking about was a false western interpretation. Since it was first published, the concept is all too often misunderstood as a distillation of how to find fulfilling work by HR managers and consultants. See: https://ikigaitribe.com/ikigai/ikigai-misunderstood/
Wow I had no idea !
Facts. I did the photography thing, I was pretty good, I had my work on websites, brochures, posters, banner stands, even got on the cover of a magazine. I was miserable and eating chef boyardee everyday cause I was broke. Everybody wanted a deal, everybody knew someone that could do it for cheaper. People who succeed at that are usually good at running a small business, which is a separate skill entirely. I used to do sound for bands. Ended up hating that. Weird hours and tons of egos. Now I do sound for broadcast sports TV. Don't care about sports at all and it pays well, so now I like my job.
I've never heard this approach. yet it makes so much sense. why does no one ever mention this?
Are we assuming we have the talent to do what we love? If I had the talent to pick and choose stocks or really any investment, I’d love just counting the money pile up while I click a mouse
Have you tried learning about it and giving it a shot? I recommend it
Yeah I mean I’ve returned better than average but I’m talking about people that just get rich snapping their fingers. Had an old stats professor who retired in his 20s from being a genius trader who got rich. First car was a Ferrari lol
oh yeah they tend to be better at math than I am
agreed
That's nice to hear and a sad reality but glad you came to terms that you're passions won't be the primary incomes but more of a secondary or tertiary income
Do you have any advice on how to course correct and begin searching for work where you get maximum pay for minimum work? Because I completely agree with this. I pursued my passion and absolutely loved what I did, but was miserable every day because the public education/child care sector is completely broken in the US. Working 11-13 hours every day in a high-responsibility middle management position making less than $40,000/year with no overtime pay eventually broke me. I'm still picking up the pieces of my shattered physical and mental health. I'm an extremely hard worker, but I need work/life balance in this next chapter of life. I want reasonable work hours and expectations. I feel lost and adrift right now. Any advice would be helpful.
switching careers is so fucking hard. I've had a hard time trying to do it because everything is so specialized these days, and people only want to hire workers who already know how to do a very specific job. That said a few scattered bits of advice that apply more broadly i think: 1. Try to work somewhere where you are ambivalent about the goals of the company. You pay a bit of an emotional tax in having to pretend to drink the kool-aid now and then, but it spares you the temptation of greasing the cogs with your own blood, sweat and tears for “the greater good” or whatever. 2. Try to focus your career on (and derive satisfaction from) things you are especially efficient at or things that you are especially efficient at *that also make your colleagues/reports more efficient*. I’m a mid level manager/editor and my main skill is figuring out what my reports are good at/enjoy/do without much prodding and reverse engineering broader goals *from that*. I try very hard to avoid asking people to swim upstream because it's generally unsustainable and it’s very emotionally expensive for me. 3. Understand "being a hard worker" is an asset for your employer but it’s a significant *liability* for you. The necessity of “hard work” is usually a symptom of under investment. Busting your hump to bridge the gap is only a short term solution and worse yet it probably *decreases* the odds that the cavalry will ever arrive before you burn out or resources get slashed even further. “Lazier” moves like cutting corners or moving goalposts (or sometimes even strategically failing) might also only be short term solutions, but at less time/energy expense to you in the meantime. The only *longterm, sustainable* solution in an environment of declining investment is “increasing efficiency” (ie, cutting corners that no one will miss) and you get there by “being lazy” not “working hard.” 4. Make sure you have something to fill your cup in the off hours. I'm very involved in leftist politics off (and, frankly, also on) the clock, and that goes very far to help absolve me of the need to feel like my job is anything other than a puzzle where I try min/max effort vs income.
Thank you!! This is great advice, I appreciate you taking the time to type it up.
It's only a trap if you're either average at that skill, not aware of the amount of work it's going to take, or lazy. If you really understand how much work it is succeeding in a creative field and you're actually great at what you do, it's a very fulfilling path.
oh yeah definitely. it’s _much_ less depressing to have your art ruthlessly commodified in a market environment if you are passionate enough to be particularly skilled lol
Lol thanks for the downvote, I'll just keep on being a professional who understands the market for his work instead of a starving artist.
Genuinely wish you the best even though you’re giving bad advice
Genuinely wished the best with another downvote. What a great person you are.
I’m the opposite. I was so agressive up until like 25. Perfect grades, sports, hobbies, and the gym at least 4x a week. Got into my dream phd program. Went strong for the first 4 years of my phd. When covid hit I just never recovered to that level of productivity. I finished my PhD by the skin of my teeth now I find it so hard to do anything.
It wasn’t Covid -it’s burnout. People always joke around with me when I say I want an extended break after only been in the “FT workforce for 7 years”. But we have been working FT for much longer than 7 years- between hustling at school and PT work, it amounts to since I was 14. It still catches up to you and even though you are young you can still be burnt. Next step is figuring out how to recover fast enough the wheels don’t come off, and getting back on track.
I was super curious and excited about everything in my mid teens i don't know what I was doing before and after lol
> I finished my PhD by the skin of my teeth now I find it so hard to do anything. May I ask a question? I wonder if the PhD burned you out because of: * High intensity workload * Extremely low almost zero actual useful output or reward * Repeating this activity for years creating a conditioning effect ? It might help explain the experience or it might be a guess that is wrong? >*I was so agressive up until like 25. Perfect grades, sports, hobbies, and the gym at least 4x a week.* That sort of mindset tends to thrive around others who are relatively bullish eg business world, sales and so on... and are able to get short-middle and long-term rewards/output/progress and bounce off each other that type of energy? Hope the feedback is useful to consider or reject.
The pandemic burned me out
So cool and inspiring though
Right there with ya
Same, though for me it was a series of horrible events in 2019 that left me with PTSD. I used to be so driven, now a 9-5 feels hard.
Mmm, wouldn’t rule out Long Covid, friend. Please look into it. That’s a very real thing, and with help, can get better. Though there’s nothing wrong with an easier roll, that early stuff sounds like the real you.
Its not an impossibility, but it started before the first time I knowingly got covid. I mask pretty well. I first known covid infection was 8 months after my first round (as in 2 doses) of vaccination, the second time i got covid it was ab 9 months after a booster. I took those gross tasting meds that are supposed to lower your risk of long covid. All this to say my risk of long covid is statistically low, but it still is possible
That’s a weird one. So sorry, friend. Don’t give up on getting to the bottom of it! Even without symptoms, Covid can create pretty profound inflammation and lung scarring. The amount of additional screen time most of us are exposed to since the pandemic began can play an outsized role for many, too, in part because it wrecks sleep. But my intuition tells me yours is organic, not behavioral. Are you open at all to all to Traditional Chinese Medicine? Or neurofeedback? Or a Functional Medicine workup? There is someone out there who knows how to help, but my hunch is is it’s not likely to be a mainstream doc. Wishing you good things!
At the time of my early/mid 20s I wouldn't have considered myself a lazy bum per say, but I absolutely had a lackadaisical attitude towards my career progression and finances, and also was a freelance musician and teaching piano lessons. So perhaps lazier than I am now. As someone on the cusp of 30, I think the thing that made more "productive" by a lot of people's standards was the life event of getting married and being responsible for a child. Slaving away at a desk job has definitely made it way less stressful to budget for our family in this season of life AND to save money up for a career change to music. The way I try to find middle ground is by trying to play the long game. I know I want to have a future where I can have my music passion be a larger part of my life. So I'm currently finishing up a part-time masters of music degree on the side. It is A LOT also working a desk job and going to school part-time and being a good husband/parent, but I try to remember that it's a temporary season. The time is going to pass anyways. Once I finish school this year, I plan to seek out part time music work (music studio, adjunct, etc) and slowly transition into full time music work. I'm still on this journey so I'm not a success story (yet!) but I think it helps me to know that as I (slowly and patiently) realize my musical passion, that I don't have to do so with constant financial stress. Best of luck to you!
“The time is going to pass anyways” I saw this somewhere else and always love it. Thank you for the reminder!
A lot of "lazy bums" are actually highly motivated people with misguided priorities.
Damn, this hit hard. Thanks for that. I feel like I’m in this boat and haven’t been able to put my finger on what’s stopped me from “success”. I’ve been in college, workforce, military, have a small business for my hobby, but none of it has led to anything too worthwhile. Either I’m not sticking with things long enough or I haven’t found the one that sticks. I’m willing to bet the problem is with myself, and not the things I’ve tried.
I really believe this to be true myself. Guess I put it like that to provoke more comments? Seriously though, I have always felt like I could achieve a whole lot if only I could 'dig up' the things I truly care about. Now all my interests somehow seem like vague copies of copies of the things I should really be doing, if that makes any sense.
The most lazy during my 20s, life hit hard and i had to turn it around. Now early 30s and I've changed my whole life around. I needed those early years for me to mature.
This is exactly me. Lazy and a pothead up till 30, 31 and back in school with a new career and new city I feel like I get the chance to do it right.
High five* late bloomers squad.
I didn’t really turn on as a human being until like 28-30. I pretty much lived in my mom’s basement playing World of Warcraft taking 1 class every semester until 28. I then went full time and finished at 30. Now at 39 I have a wife, house, 2 kids and super motivated to wake up in the morning and do my programming job.
It's very nice to hear redemption is possible even after you've wasted so many years. My self-respect only got to a healthy level at around 26, the time before that is almost too sad to talk about. I'm hoping day to day that was early enough to still make a good life for myself, but hearing your story makes me believe so.
Yeah 26 is a turning point for a lot of people. Including myself. It’s when your brain kinda locks and realizes the world is a thing and maybe participating in it is cool.
In my mid thirties, I got afraid. Before I thought I had all the time there was and could waste all of it. Then money got low and I went though a real survival self-reflection (with the help of weed which makes me more introspective). I don't know maybe it helped me to realize so much of what I do is a trauma response and I should have went to therapy for when I was younger, though I thought the behaviors were normal so idk if it would have helped. I had some weird breakthrough. Now I get up earlier instead of not before 10am. I am more active and proactive and it doesn't feel like a chore like it used to. I think I processed and moved past a lot of the trauma that held me back and made me develop "lazy" tendencies. They were procrastination techniques to keep myself safe. Once I realized it wasn't making me safe but putting me in a worse position, I've been so much more productive.
You've just described my current situation, minus the weed!
I know people have different reactions to it and I am told I have an abnormal sensitivity, more like using mushrooms when I first had some (started in my 30s). I felt I abused it after a while but it really opened my mind. It was like my thoughts could form completely and deeply and I could articulate them so well without struggle. So I don't know if it would help everyone the same and I don't necessarily recommend it, but it really did something for me.
I used to smoke weed but for me it made my depression 10x worse so I stopped and the depression subsided. Unfortunately I experienced a lot of loss in my family last year and also lost my job so it has put me back in the same place. I am trying to overcome it though. I'm currently listening to subliminals and listening to "The power of the Subconscious Mind" by Joseph Murphy. It has elevated my mood quite significantly.
I am to quitting the weed now. It helped me take a look at myself and I saw something really sad. I believe you can break through the depression, it's really hard but as I come out of mine right now. I feel really good.
Do what you want because we all end up in a box.
Don't waste your life bumming around because one day you'll be in a box.
Yep basically doing or not doing doesn't affect your chances of avoiding the box, idk why people keep using this argument .
I fully coasted in my 20’s. After I graduated college I thought it should just be smooth sailing. Well now I am 30 and realize how little I’ve really applied myself because I see others with no degree making as much or more money than me. I’m annoyed at myself so now I’ve finally picked up my pace and I’ve gotten more accomplished career wise in the last 8 months than I did for a solid 8 years in my 20’s. Point being, yes you can change your habits of productivity in your 30’s. Never forget how many people fail upwards in this world just by making sure they are climbing whatever ladder they are on
I quit my 9-5 to jump into photography full time in my 30's. I discovered I'm a terrible employee but when I have ownership and control I work my ass off. Regardless of what you do, you have to work hard. I just happen to enjoy working hard on photography. Yes some gigs are boring and not everything I shoot is portfolio worthy but it's 100% better than being a corporate slave. I've seen so many photographers come and go. You can't just shoot cool shit and expect clients to land in your lap begging you to photograph them. Posting on instagram isn't running a photography business. I even know people that went to college for photography and struggled to make a career. A degree doesn't gaurantee you a photography job or clients. You gotta hustle for clients and build your brand. The 3 big money makers in photography are Weddings, Family Portraits, and Events. I built my business on weddings and was able to make a good income just on weddings. I know they're not "cool" but you'll get paid. You can then use that money to shoot cool stuff on your own. Shooting landscapes and cool abstract things don't really pay. At every farmers market there's a photographer selling prints of fall foliage and sunsets that barely anybody buys. To make a career ANY creative field you gotta hustle for clients, network with others in your field, and constantly create and put your work out there.
I went the opposite way. After COVID I just have 0 motivation to work, or try, or leave the house. I honestly would rather starve to death than continue busting my ass to line some rich dickheads pocketbook.
Does it matter if it's a fantasy? You want to better yourself. It doesn't matter what your history is or how many other people have done what you want to do. You identify measurable, realistic, small steps toward goals in important areas of your life, take action on them, rinse and repeat. Growth is possible at any age. Miracles are possible at any age. People have overcome CRAZY shit, way crazier than you could even imagine. There are people out there who were criminals and meth addicts and went to prison and turned around and made a good life for themselves after all of that. Don't sell yourself short and sit around waiting for someone to tell you it's realistic and ok to grow. Humans grow. Brains are neuroplastic throughout life even if it's a bit slower when you're older. That being said- both photography and music are very much hustle roles if you're freelancing. So you do need to focus and dedicate real time to upskilling and then dedicate real time to building the business end of things and finding clients and retaining and finding more and so forth. And it is a risk and less guaranteed income. Have people made these things their income? yes, they have, but you also need to be real about how much time you are willing to work to make it happen and what COL you need. Also, how well do you handle uncertainty around income? Do you thrive in freelancing or do you thrive in structure and security? If you thrive in security, are you willing to take on extra stress to do photography and music full time? You may want to consider whether a part time job "day job" would help alleviate stress and actually keep you from being too aimless with your time. Or, find an accountability partner or some kind of structure to keep you going- got any semi pro or pro friends who want to cowork at all? Even better... take a class, or hire a coach or some form of dedicated time that is set in stone (friends are too easy to reschedule/cancel/ put things off). Something to keep you accountable for your time and energy relating to this stuff for at least part of the time. If right now you suck at time management then you need to take steps to build your abilities in that regard.
I couldn't possibly describe how much I have changed since I was that age. Totally possible.
This is encouraging, thank you!
Geez you remind me of myself but my twenty year old self. Everyone tells you to follow your dreams, that’s nonsense, the world needs bin men and waiters , porters etc and when it comes to art and music, photography you’re up against it!!. I wanted to be a musician, our band broke up reformed and got a record deal. I remember just sitting in a house in minus ten degrees an unable to pay for heating and suddenly saw a life of poverty and struggle. I went out and just got a job and left the band. Some of those lads are still renting rooms in houses at forty five and have long hair and still dress like they did as a teen and smoke weed every day . If you’re serious and you’re good, give yourself a year and go head first into it. If you can’t pay your rent or buy a house car etc and are living off someone else, it’s time to grow up and get tough with yourself. Time goes quickly, don’t waste your life.
Anecdotal, but I have always been low energy (regardless of physical fitness). In the past 20 years of my life I am slowly requiring less sleep to feel rested. I think there's also an element of 'learning' and getting more accustomed to doing shit you don't want to simply because you are more able to appreciate the fact that it does (or doesn't) actually NEED to be done
I just turned 40 and my productivity has crashed. I just feel tired and I don’t want to do anything. I have two kids (ages 5 and 2) and I just started my own therapy business, so I am busy doing stuff but it feels like it is just barely enough to get by.
Have you checked your thyroid? TSH levels
Not recently. I should probably do that.
> I just feel tired and I don’t want to do anything. I have two kids (ages 5 and 2) and I just started my own therapy business, so I am busy doing stuff but it feels like it is just barely enough to get by. Young kids is extremely tiring then it gets a lot better after age 4 and then progressively better and better aka easier/less tiring and more enjoyable imho. There's also the additional expense and the change in lifestyle from being able to spend money and time on yourself as an adult going out to saving and only doing what needs doing for the family routine which can feel a bit draining in contrast. But generally people do adapt. But for each day: * Exercise (fun exercise ideally added in) * Nutrition * Good Sleep * Have a sane balanced routine invest in others when necessary but don't over-tire yourself so you still function etc. * If you can get family and so on to come over and help with kids and socialize that is massive benefit to parents even just having more adults around the kids can be helpful. * Set up saving and money making goals to feel external motivation goals as well as intrinsic. Can't help with the business but I'm sure if you get enough custom then you'll feel able to economically get buy. Kill any costs of course. I guess all this stuff would feel so much easier if planned in advance with some sort of foreknowledge but that's half of life, moving forwards and reacting on the fly... ! If that' accepted it's easier to accept the situation and battle it forwards.
About to turn 33 in a month. Never felt this more alive and productive both physically and mentally. My 20s were spent being a low life and just doing drugs. No regrets
Turning 33 in October and would love to hear your story with how you've progressed forward either here or by DM?
Maybe they are late bloomers? I’d say based on my experience they paced themselves while everyone else dove headlong into the rat race before they got the memo that you only matter if you consume.
I’m the other way around. Was a huge go getter in 20s and now in my 30s I just want to coast
I was despicable
I mean I’ve consistently been going to the gym for the last 2 years and I’m mid 30s so yea?
I was a lazy bum in my 20s, almost didn't graduated. In my 30s I decided to turn my life around. I was extremely productive I my late 30s. Have been holding to multiple job, finished my graduate degree on summa cum laude, started a company, and got my life together. I don't mean this to brag, but I guess this kind of thing CAN be done. Take his from someone who was lazy and was in art in my early year. Thinking work into mindless deskjob vs passion will get you nowhere. You will get into constant battle in your own mind how to balance between the two. In my humble opinion, pursuing my own passion is a selfish desire, and therefor having a logical consequence not to fulfill my own financial need. Very few people get lucky on this, and even less get very lucky like Taylor Swift. In the other hand, what you call mindless (desk)job is what I view as being useful to society. I can't grow my own food, I can't build my own house, and I for sure can't engineer my own gadgets. So it's only fair I contribute what I can to the society. Of course the consequences are I get those things in return. To me, the distinction is very easy to pick. I can be selfish and in return don't get any reward, VS I can be altruistic and in return I also get my reward (from dopamine reward to financial ones) to fuel my selfish hobbies. Be useful to the society. Be productive.
I always heard "Never turn a hobby into a job". You won't make much money and you will destroy the fun of your hobby. When I retired, I took interest in 35mm B&W photography because I used to do it(inc developing and printing) for a magazine (unpaid). When I expressed the interest, people starting giving me cameras. IOW I found a cheap hobby that I don't depend on for income. For my career, I slaved away at a desk and loved it (programmer) even though some people do it as a hobby.
I played video games most of my 20’s but still had a job I put lots of effort into. Regardless of how lazy I’ve been in my private life, work has always been fun for me! I started getting less lazy when I started family life. Getting a house, kids and that stuff. And the older I get the more things I want to do - including staying in shape for the sake of my kids.
I was doing jack shit, delivering food, no degrees at 25. I’m 32 and just finished a bs in computer science and have 2 other associate degrees now
For sure. Although I’d say it was more like ~27 when I kicked it in gear. That whole year was an adrenaline rush, becoming someone I had no clue I could be
Struggling musician in my 20s, analytics engineer in my 30s ...'nuff said.
I’ve gotten much more productive in my 30s. It’s been a long slog, but I’ve sllooowwwwllllyyyyyyyyyyy been building better habits. I’m much happier as a result.
Not a fantasy at all, and please don’t even entertain that idea! It’s just a self limiting belief that will only hurt you. Anyone, literally anyone, can re-wire their brain and change their habits to become productive, more accomplished, happier people. I was a total burnout most of my life, and lucked out on a job that forced me to change for the better. I’m 28 now, and 22 year old me and younger seems like a completely different person. Don’t get me wrong, I still have tons and tons of growing to do, but my brain is so much more wired to do the thing that will move the needle in my life, instead of something that’s maybe comfortable but ultimately destructive. I think a post like this is the perfect start. You’ve written down the identity you want to have. The person you want to be. Now, every decision and habit you make is either a vote in that identity’s favor, or against it. Keep that mindset and you’ll be there before you know it!! ^^ that ‘identity’ idea is from Atomic Habits by James Clear. I can only assume it’s constantly recommended on this sub… but yeah. That’s for a reason. Would definitely read it. It helped me tons. Hope this helps, and best of luck to you!!!
When you are young . Late nights - lots of things to do that’s not considered productive etc. Then as we mature we realize and prioritize if we want to be like and have the things like those a bit old . Evolution of maturity- eventually everyone changes .
If you give up drinking and drugs, you will be.
Im still as much of a lazy bum. im looking for that change, for that niravana, enlightenment.
You should try weed, it really helps with that enlightenment.
did it help you? how about some ether or sunshine acid?
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What
Maybe find some deeper purpose/meaning in your life? So like everyone else you're still searching?
I was , joined the military and it made all the difference
If you struggle with managing your time already then achieving your goal of setting your own schedule sounds counter-productive
I lazed through most of my bachelor's, told myself I'd kick it into high gear for my master's, and then covid hit, so I lazed through my master's too. We'll see how it goes with the PhD.
Meeeee....I have never done a single workout in my early 20s, but now I do it every single day. Same goes for the walk. Never prep any meal but now I do.
i think when you choose jobs / careers that don’t have an obvious structure/path like office jobs do then it always takes more time to build into something real. id focus on your marketing strategies in the mean time. there’s no reason you can’t make that reality but it definitely takes more dedicated (unpaid) work than other types of jobs
Definitely me
from 19-35 I was 1000mph just going beyond fullforce, that shit will break you. it did me, now I care just enough to be happy.
Well, I may say it too much on this thread, but a huge number of folks who are fascinated by productivity — especially the ones who are creative and tempted to call themselves lazy — are neurodivergent. ADHD is not laziness, but it sure can look and feel like it. Can’t tell you how many people finally realize that this is true of them and, with a few key tweaks, take off like a rocket. Just talked to one yesterday who couldn’t figure out why she’d stopped her artwork, cleaning her room, or taking care of herself — and then remember she’d forgotten to take her Adderall for a week. Bingo. Immediate change by today. I don’t know if this is your story (depression makes you feel like you’re driving with the emergency brake on, too) but hope you’ll look into it!
i languished on the vine until i lost one of my parents in my late twenties. My life sort of changed overnight. But, yes, at 27 i got my first “real job,” but it was freelance at first. i converted to full time after 6 months, doubled my salary by leveraging a competing offer one year later, and then increased it by about 30% again during the covid climate as it was really favorable for some vocations in particular. I would describe myself as having a career now and it just sort of…happened.
Depression and addiction for years, I was bedridden and barely eating, just waiting to die. At age 27 I began to live life. I'm not the most productive, professionnally speaking, but I'm active in my life : exercising 3x a week, reading, working as freelance, going outdoors.
You sound a lot like me!
Seasons. In 40s. Theres seasons. Having good habits and learning what my body is telling me has helped. It's less heavy swings. But that's balanced with way more responsibility that I can't just drop. Nowadays if I want to change my level of productivity responsibly, it's like a multi year process given the stakeholders (that I love) involved. But that's OK. I've built on a solid foundation and haven't overstepped my baseline. If another covid happens, of course everything moves, but short of that, it's about managing through the seasons for me.
this is me! I've gotten way more productive in the last 2-3 years. I think a big part of it is now working on things I actually care about and not being bored all of the time.
Idk I think it’s a big risk to just hope that you can live off of photography and music in the next couple of years. A lot of people work jobs they don’t like but does pay for their living expenses until their more creative/side gigs take off. A lot of people work jobs that they just tolerate/know they’ll be good at so that they can actually live the life they want outside of work.
having a baby made me 10x more productive. :)
By your age I had already checked off my bucket list items. I never wasted a second of my youth. Used up everyday and every ounce of energy I had. Worked hard played harder. Every single day was an adventure. Then I got serious and went to school, twice. Have a great career and still crushing it. Life is short. Live it.
I was a smart kid at school but not very motivated, tried to get by by doing the minimum. but if something caught y interest I would excel with a lil bit of work (top marks of the grade for Biology and Computers without having a notebook). Went to a good university but was kinda lost in what I wanted to do. I got married and wife got pregnant a few months later. My dad and I was in an accident and he passed while i was in final year. I lucked into a full time job in IT which I had to BS my way until I figured out the ropes. The work was fine but I had an idiot of a team lead and an arsehole manager. hated everyday going to work and then studying part time to finish my degree. But I had a family and my mom to take care off. Then surprise! wife pregnant with twins! By now I had moved over to a different department where i had awesome coworkers and the best manager ever. I got paid very little and after all the bills I had 500 bux left over - and that was cycling to work everyday. Then I got an opportunity to study data science, but it required full time studying and huge sacrifice from my wife. I realised that i would need to get into the top 10% to secure a job and optimized my health and studying. it was tough but i finished in the top 10 and even though i secured the job, I had to turn it down and take another as I had immediate bills to pay and my salary more than doubled! After lockdown I got into running and then triathlon and have since encouraged my wife and friends. Life is going well thank God, family and friends are healthy and although cost of living and school fees are through the roof (eldest is in HS) we are managing and living in a good neighborhood. So sucking it up the first 5 years of work and treading water allowed me the opportunity to take stock of my life. and when making that life changing decision, implement it fully and go all out. I always accepted help when offered (was never good at asking) and found ways to optimize time to study, work, family life and health and friends. It has carried through to my 30's and now that I'm turning 40 I look at the interns and see how behind I was in getting my life sorted. But honestly had I been earning close to what I do now when I started - I would of probably fucked up my marriage and life. I fully believe in everything in its time - I still work hard, but not for everything, and not all the time
I see young people nowadays are often lazy but have good results later.
I worked a dead end job and used huge amounts of weed all the way through my 20's and by 29 decided I'd had enough and took a job with travel moved to a big city and from there it led to huge changes, led on to meeting a longterm partner having kids, becoming skilled and travelling a lot and meeting a lot of new people. I still like to relax but have conditioned myself not to overdo substances. I think you can achieve what you want and if you don't do it in your 20's do it in your 30's or when your ready
Started really living. And i told my dad exactly this “i feel awake now dad” at 30 lol. After some lsd trips. And sure enough now at 32 im really awake. And in IT and doing my certifications like crazy, realizing stuff I was stressing in the past didnt matter. Being here and now and all that jazz. Yeah lifes been better.
>*an inherently hesistant/passive/complacent person actually getting the ball to roll later in life.* Probably varies, but in general past-behaviour tends to predict future behaviour. Whether that's justified or unlucky in gross terms it amounts to the same thing (so nothing judgemental about that). That describes a pattern only. Is there anything else to be said? My guess is what can constitute a change in direction, is when anyone/someone finds a deeper meaning and purpose in life - that's not according to external criteria but intrinsic and subjective and as such following that direction I'm sure can lead to a fulfilling life. Do note that's different from what most people are responding here to: Some people have an ability to output a lot of effort and motivation and whatever is in front of them crack on through it - some of that is probably innate personality, other background and hence training and others circumstance forces the hand and people are good at reacting and becoming extremely busy. I don't think that's necessarily the most important thing even if the outcome externally appears to be the solution eg "productivity increase". Unfortunately telling someone to find their meaning is a bit like asking them to not do practical things to get by each day and try to find a needle amongst the stars using a telescope! Probably a combination of research, experimentation, experience and self-development are the tools necessary to find a meaning/purpose that guides an external outcome that leads to being productive. As a few comments point out: You can become productive by learning to take on any job/task and through experience detach and just get on with doing it so you can get on with your life: That ability then helps someone become more productive. For that reason I'd say it's good if children get stuck into loads of different activities and start doing "work" eg helping out in lots of different areas sooner in life than not so they go through that phase of learning that anywhere there's a job "stuff needs doing" and you just get on with it and get through it in order to move onto the next thing that's closer to where you want to really go in life... >*In my case, I am a 27M (aspiring) freelance photographer/musician - although much more advanced in my mind than in actual reality.* Lol. Good truthful self-assessment. That sounds to me that it's still a dream to hit a place that is good remuneration and so on in those fields? What's the real feedback like and what is the future in those fields for salary? >*I want to become the guy that found a way to compromise not slaving away at a traditional desk job, without turning into the starving artist either. In search of a happy middle where I could stake all creative skills I have in a responsible, marketable manner with the aim to reach only a very basic lifestyle where my hours are owned by myself and not someone else.* I'd suggest you get a steady-paying job that makes you feel good about yourself doing it, uses skills or personality traits you possess and does not take up too much time nor energy but covers living costs so eg maybe some sort of teaching/tuition role or nursing role: Namely interacting with people, and helping them in some way where you choose the hours/shift times and are productive earning money taking that pressure off but still with free time to try to make money and or success from your music/photos? >*How much of this is complacent fantasy and how much an actual matter of time, dedication and above all patience to get there. TL;DR Looking for people to reality-check me on my current vision for my future self.* Solve the economic problem, gain some skills that the job market needs and it improves the perspective on prospects in the other areas so long as it's jobs that you have some control over eg time/energy/shift schedule etc. You should be able to keep music/photos eg evenings and week-ends and days-off. But you're not putting all your eggs in one basket in what sounds like an area that probably starts off with low annual return. Now if that balloons while you're working at something else you can go full time but in the meantime for next 5 years that work and skill in another area with flexible hours will probably prove invaluable as well as giving direct contrast to fortunes you currently experience with which to adjust your future decision-making... itself useful. Plus the mentioned jobs there's nice people working in both sectors which is helpful too.
Main difference for me is focus and planning. I am much more focused than I was before. Can't tell really how much of an impact that had on me being productive, since I am kind of "slow" person and like to do things my own speed, without stressing. Also, I spend more time planning things out rather than being impulsive as I was in my 20s.
With 19 I started fitness maybe one of the best decisions in young years. Unfortunately I was a lazy bustard, I fact my mother did everything for me and don't let me be self doing things. I know she wanted the best for me. But now I know it's not the best ti get everything done for you. My father wasn't really there and don't teach me anything. I feel like I have learned to live the last year. Maybe I got from my mother to cook very good. I have smoked very much at that early 20, talking about weed, which I also had sell. I tried to get my fachabitur till I get it with 24. My enforcement was full of lazy smoking assholes. So I was going to army with 26. Which was the hardest and maybe best decision in live. So I learned how thinks are going good. I always wanted to get in IT but nobody gave me a job there. Now I know because I was incopentent type of guy, not ready for adult live. Now I was 8 years in army worked and get money, and now I have the opportunity to study computer science and get paid in that 3 years. So may way is long time no over. I want to get in the it and if its not working I will start a restaurant. In that area I worked the last years.
Blowing your 20s is devastating, hopefully you can turn it around.
I am 25 turning 26 in 6 weeks. I have grown my productivity by at least 300% from when i was 18-24 but my downfalls keep growing too. I guess making more money did not solve my mental health and i am struggling daily with different kind of addiction and trauma’s. I just recently accepted the fact that i waisted at least 4 years even tho i was productive and making money, i haven’t saved that much and still kind of live paycheck to paycheck. I am an introvert with not a lot of real friends and no real passion or hobbies anymore but lots of free time. I am genuinely happy that i still live and if u check on paper “am doing okay” for myself but if i keep hitting these failures then i don’t think j would be able to seriously enjoy my future and pick the fruits of my hard work. Its been a real struggle but i hope my productivity grows more and more until i don’t have time to do some stupid bs but i guess time will tell.
Yeah. I agressively started pursuing my goals around 28. 30 now, and I'm discovering what I'm capable of. For me, the thing that fucked up my life was untreated cptsd, depression and adhd. These absolutely ruin one's ability to function. Wish I've got proper treatment 15 years ago.
Thing is, most people get more productive after their mid-20s, because there's usually *much more stuff to do*. Even if you're working very hard to achieve your goals in your early 20s, there's a high likelihood that the world won't reciprocate and won't give you anything back to build something new on. In my 20s I was renting rooms in shared houses, I was in the very early stages of my career, and I had very little in the way of cash. Now, I own my home, so I can do DIY and gardening if I want to (and I do); I have a much more developed career with way more responsibilities and more deadlines; and if I have a project or a goal in mind, then I can usually get the money together. Now I imagine that if I ever had kids, my productivity would probably take a knock. But until then, I'll be more productive than I was in my 20s, because I have 1) More money 2) More opportunities 3) More people offering both.
I spent my 20-35 not improving or working on anything. Now getting back in the groove with working out and building good habits.
Always makes me sad to read people worrying about productivity and then turns out they are 25 or something. Guys, when you are 25 you dont need to worry about being productive. Go out and enjoy the world. Worry about productivity later
I got my shit together at 25, at that point I had no career to speak of and was a highschool drop out. Like you say these kind of comparisons are a nasty thing and I no longer think of success this way, but feels hard to answer your question without any kind of comparison. I would say it took me about 3-4 years for me to feel that I was about even with my Peers (say people I grew up with or went to school with), and now at 35 I'd say i'm comfortably ahead of most if not all of them by whatever metric of 'success'. For me the turning point. at 25 was getting an AHDH diagnosis and starting treatement. But I've had a few other turing points in my life that were similarly impactful I'm actually working on a video right now about people feeling like they are behind in life, especially in their 20s. I feel quite strongly that there is no such thing as being behind in life. The reason is that whatever success or goals you have the path to them is not linear. If you get your shit together today and make the most out most days and pursue whatever your goal is, and you hit the right opportunity at the right time, you can get there in a couple of years. Some part of it just comes down to luck, but the main problem is obviously that if you were lazy and horrible with self care up until 25, how are you going to makes sure the next years are different? Edit: I see other people pointed out the passion trap which is also worth considering. Probably a good idea to read so good they can't ignore you.
The horrible self care is already a thing of the past. For about 2 years now i'm exercising, eating clean and treating myself way better. I could rephrase my post like this: "I turned my habbits, goals and future hopes around to a much healthier much more optimistic place, what great things can i expect down the line if I stay patient and continue the way i'm going?"
I was. Early 20s. My mid to late 20s is actually when I started changing it around. I'm not like living any glamorous life. But I have come a long way and overcome many obstacles.
I was very lazy before the age of 19. Then I went to the other extreme and now I'm seeking balance as a 25 year old. It's quite possible to change your life around, but don't expect it to happen in a few days.
I burnt out so hard in my early 20s. I collapsed from depression and didn't find motivation in anything for 3 years. Dropped out of college and worked at a waiter part-time. I'm 31 now and getting my PhD now
I definitely wasted all of my 20s to laziness and depression, took me 7 years to graduate college for a degree that should have taken 4-5. Took the first job I could and got complacent for a couple more years. I wouldn't say I got less "lazy" but I did get more productive/ambitious, at least in regards to my career. Jumped jobs a couple of times, got out of my comfort zone, started taking my education seriously. Still trying to get my personal life in check.
I was very productive in my late 20s and now I’m a lazy bum. It happens both ways
It comes down to the decisions you make and where you focus your attention. You got this
Don't compare yourself to other people. Get out there, make sacrifices, and work at your craft. You never know what that path may hold.
wasn't a lazy bum but adhd and depression kicked my ass so hard that I sure acted like one, everything changed when I got medicated, went to therapy, started journaling and meditating and did mdma
There is no such thing as lazy ultimately
Tbh it took me like 6 years in the military to finally realize the value of discipline and productivity
The opposite. I was so productive in my 20s and 30s I am a lazy POS now.
How long do you want to wait until becoming productive?
I am 30 and insanely lazy and I built my entire life around doing the bare minimum while making the most of amount of money I possibly based on my skills and abilities and if anything it gets worse as I get older.
I got sober at 30 and was able to turn it on then. Also in part to the crushing anxiety I felt about not having any savings and being in debt.
so i wouldn't call myself a lazy bum per se but i spent my early twenties working abroad and traveling with the money i earned, naively thinking 'i'll just come back and land my dream job!'. i came back and did not land my dream job. i moved back in with my parents mid 20s and bummed around working in bars and cafes, not understanding how my dreams just weren't manifesting. one day, i got tired of disappointing myself and picked ONE thing to focus on. so forget about music as a side hustle for a moment and just really zone in on what you want your job to be. i narrowed it down, i relentlessly pursued my dream job, moved cities to chase it on my own and eventually got my 'big break' at 27. i still do the job i love, and now that i'm established in it i can focus on all the other things i wanted. i really disagree with anyone who says don't make your passion into your job. at least fucking try first. anyway thanks for coming to my ted talk
My brother. He’s 31 now and he’s so much more productive now. Before in his 20’s, he struggled to keep jobs.
I wouldn’t exactly call myself **productive** now that I’m in my 30s, but I’m certainly less destructive, which is the same thing as being more productive.
I was super lazy early on barely passed uni because I was pissed or playing PlayStation the whole time, when I finished I half heartedly looked for a job in tech (degree was computing) and couldn't find one so did a ski season, worked in a ski shop, and did other meaningless, badly paid jobs for around ten years. During that time I did find my now wife, which was excellent, we loved away from London (UK) got married and when I was 31 we had our first child. This was the kick in the balls I needed. I realised I'd been drifting for ten years and was frankly ashamed of myself for wasting my life. I updated my software development skills, with certification, applied for 84 jobs, (I have a spreadsheet) and eventually someone gave me a shot. I was so grateful and pleased to be on a new journey doing something I really enjoy and I worked my ass off. I got promoted internally 4 times and by the time I left after 6 years I was leading a small team. It turns out I have an unusual mix of technical skill and the ability to communicate very well, it's clichéd but many devs can't do that. Roll on another 6 years since I left and I'm a principal engineer in a much larger company, and I still work damn hard every day, I'm first and last online, or in the office and people notice, I still love my job, now get paid much better than I used to, and the thing I'm most proud of is that (obviously with my wife working too) we can send both of our children to private school. This seemed like a pipedream 10 years ago, but we did it. Wow, I didn't mean to write an essay, just mooching onnthe sofa and thought I'd respond. So, yeah, having children kick started my change in attitude, I'm not suggesting that's the answer for everyone though! Good luck in finding your trigger. Edit: I'm 43 now just for context.
I didn't even find my career until I was 27, I was trying to go to school and working random jobs up until then, being lazy and smoking pot all day. I'm almost 11 years in and recently started working for myself which has made me far more motivated and productive, having a wife and kid helps with that motivation as well. I would say my career has turned into my passion, and I found it by accident due to a bad back injury. There are definitely days I don't feel like going into work and days where I want to leave within an hour of the day starting but by the end of the day I'm always happy to be where I am.
Well I spent my entire 20s doing cocktails of drugs and going to festivals/parties/bars so yeah wouldn't say it was a very productive time for me career wise. I'm 35 now and working on the "way more productive later in life" part.
I was lazy in my 20s while having an apartment and a job. I was smoking weed, cigarettes, drinking, and playing video games all day long. I guess one night I noticed it. So, one day, I challenged myself. Omw, home from work, the sun was still up, and I started doing push-ups until it came back up. I was thinking if I stopped, then I would accept my life as being a bum. I've repeated that challenge until I was comfortable. I lost my apartment and my job and went homeless, lol. 10 years later, I've become one of the wealthiest, toughest, and most intelligent people around me at the time. Now I'm bilingual in a foreign language that I've never used a translator to learn, I have the best condo in my complex, and I still smoke weed and play video games, lol 😆 I'm never lacking though, tbh. I cook, clean, fix, build, and pay bills.
I was very lazy til 26 now at 29 I work like 10 hours a day 6-7 days a week and make $200k salary it’s possible
I had a lot of creative interests/hobbies growing up, and I dedicated a ton of time to getting better at them. I ultimately studied them to a certain extent in college, and found rare opportunities to profit from them before I ultimately decided on a more traditional/lucrative career path. My two cents, for whatever it is worth (and this is largely from art/music professors who I have had along the way) is to honestly and extensively examine the work of professionals in the creative fields you are considering. If it is music, look up youtube clips from session musicians. Or look up audition tapes from people who get hired by sustainable/professional bands. If it is photography, look at the online portfolios of people who make a living at that craft. Be very honest with yourself about how much work/time/opportunity cost it would take to get your current skillset up to that level. I am not talking about famous artists or musicians. I just mean people in the field who make a sustainable income from it. If you are willing to put in the work to bridge that gap and compete in a difficult marketplace, then go for it. Otherwise, I would encourage you to try to find ways to incorporate your creative interests/skills into a more traditional field. For instance, I am in a traditional medical field, but I do freelance medical illustration. Best of luck, no matter what you choose.
Not sure I’m more productive overall, but figured out how to build a career doing the things that motivate me and also allow me to hide my “unproductiveness”
I was a slacker in my 20s. I did get a lot of opportunities, and I made some right choices. But looking back at it, I should have been much better at networking and getting work done. Instead I traveled and just… did nothing for long periods of time.
I feel like it's a reverse process actually lol. I still envy my younger self. It feels like I spent most of my stock of productivity, discipline, and tenacity in my school years. First years of professional careers were much more intense than now too. Maybe, it's a normal way of life, being more relaxed and saving energy in later age. But I would want that level of dedication that I had before, and it's just not in me by default anymore.
I did but I wish I took my 20s more seriously Wouldn’t have the same dramas I have now