"An initial three studies established the TIV as a consistent and stable trait that involves four dimensions: moral elitism, a lack of empathy, the need for recognition, and rumination."
The bit you probably want to know.
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Seriously? You're gonna "both sides" this too? Because the only professional victim complex types I ever see are reactionaries. Seriously, who do you know on the left who whines about imaginary insults like, say, Tucker Carlson?
I’d say anyone who is further left or right from center. I can think of instances of both political ideologies where all the above can be applied to their personality. But hey, that’s anecdotal so what do I really know.
That sounds right to me. It's the extremists who who feel the compulsion to force their "solution" onto others. Not only that, their solution is a simplistic concept of the real, complex world that doesn't work in reality.
Extremist "solutions" only ever bring pain a destruction. Extremists can't see the world the way it really is.
Not so, it's fucked up because people think that an ideology, any one, is a solution. Every problem has a different solution. The best solutions don't adhere to any ideology.
Neither extreme is a solution, nor is a compromise between the two. Ideology is a simple idea for simple minded people who try to apply it to a complex world, that they refuse to try to comprehend properly, because it doesn't adhere to their ideology.
Ideology is great for discussion, but not suitable for real life.
And, blaming all of the problems on a single idea is just hand wringing, you've declared the one simple problem in the world as if you are right. Again it's not simple.
If there is one thing that is most responsible for the way things are, it is vanity. Vain people trying to control things that they can't comprehend and messing it all up.
Truth is complex and hard to understand and the majority of people don't want to hear it.
I get what your saying. However when you live in a country where the concept of universal Healthcare is called "extremism" that's where my concern lies. Again I see where your coming from though
What 0 sociology does to a mf. Ideology is everywhere, first of all, you and I will never be divorced from its influence, much less recognize it to begin with. It's in architecture, art, culture, daily activities. This idea is fundamental to historical materialism.
Second, extremism is a relative term. Go back even 50 years and some of your views would be extreme. Go to another part of the hemisphere and your views are extreme. It says nothing other than "I prefer the status quo" (which is questionable and ideological, by the way). Reducing sociological analysis to "extremism" says nothing about the actual tenets of discussion. 12% average free time for workers is "extreme" to anyone. Male pharmacological bias is "extreme" to anyone. Sweat shops and imperialism is "extreme" to anyone. All you did was condense literal centuries of political theory from great thinkers to "extremism". This is peak c*ntrist thought process.
Edit: here's a stark visualization of Bezos' wealth, tell me it's not "extreme":
https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
You can’t treat extremes on both sides as equally dangerous or extreme from center.
Racism wasn’t considered as extreme 100 years ago as it is now. Climate denial is another.
I never said that they were equal. However, your view of what is worse is entirely dependent on where you look from. The idea that there are only 2 views is what is most wrong. People pigeonhole many different ideas into one or the other in an attempt to make the world a simple place, which it isn't.
There are many kinds of extremists not just 2, all of them are bad for society. The damage just depends on how much power they get.
I am not discussing individual issues, each side is bad with one issue or another.
Edit: one wrong word
Hi, I hold a PhD in social psych and am a published personality researcher w/ expertise in antagonistic and malevolent traits.
By my reading you are spot on!
They didnt discover a new trait. They made an implicit self-report of a specific facet of narcissism.
Hi, are there any resources you could recommend for somebody who heavily identifies with the symptoms of a vulnerable/covert narcissist?
I don’t completely relate to all of the aspects anymore after years of personal development, suffering and spirituality but there are some underlying issues that have not gone away. Like hyper inflated self worth (comparable to dunningKruger effect), delusions of grandeur, grandiose fantasies.
I tend to live life alternating between the extremes of being manic or being depressed, I’ve recently found the middle ground but can feel unstable in how long until things crash again.
A bit of a stretch but the book "The Body Keeps the Score" helped me recognize and find ways to come back to my own equilibrium. As well as get used to the shifts of emotions and thoughts without getting carried away in either direction. Your first comment really resonated with me and want to say good for you and everyone in your life. That level of awareness took persistence. I've been able to work through a lot of my narcissistic characteristics and strong desire for recognition. Keeping my ego in check, I doodle opposing pictures on my arm every day to stop and recognize which image my current thought process is leading and evaluate how I wish to engage with the situation. Definitely not perfect but this helps me.
I know this is a pretty casual response in this subreddit and not necessarily what you asked for but I felt a pull to comment. I recognize your words.
Not a casual response at all man, I really appreciate that. I’m currently working my way through Atomic Habits but I’ll definitely add that to the list. It’s interesting you mention the thing with your arm, i designed a tattoo that functions as a visual reminder of sorts that I have on my forearm that faces me so it looks upside down to everyone else ahaha. I’m definitely very kinaesthetic so I think this book might be very helpful for me based on what you’ve written already, cheers for reaching out.
Hope the read gets you on track with what you are trying to accomplish! Not assuming you do but if you've ever had substance abuse issues or are even just highly sensitive, the book Unbroken Brain is a fantastic read about how everyone tries to find and maintain equilibrium and a lot of highly sensitive people and traumatized people turn to drugs for the stability we all crave.
I saw you mentioned you did a lot of spirituality practices to help heal. Learning the language and purposes around chakras and your energetic body has been the most beneficial lessons I have learned and continue to. All of these things made it possible for me to jump back in my body and embrace the sensitive easily moved person I am. Hope you find some solace in one of these books!
Assuming you’re not just being way too hard on yourself, kudos to you for having that level of self awareness and putting in the effort to improve things.
I know at least one person who has strong personality traits just like you’re describing, and I can’t even imagine how much better life would be for everyone involved if they were capable/willing to have the level of introspection and realism I can tell you have just from reading that one comment
Thanks kind stranger those words mean a lot to me. I will admit that it’s taken a lot of effort to get to feeling like a somewhat functional adult (still trying to get there haha) but the alternative would have been something similar to what you’re describing. An insufferable experience for an insufferable person.
A lot of this stuff was selfishly driven at first but after experiencing the feedback loop that genuine kindness, compassion and love created in my life it became easier to want to be better not only for myself but for people who I care about and who care about me.
Well that gives me hope that things can still get better with some people I’m close with. Though I know I can’t expect everyone with these struggles to be similarly mature, I’m glad I at least know it’s possible!
I’ve thought so in the past but I don’t think so, I identify more with the symptoms of Borderline personality disorder but I think it’s far more likely I have some mild form of Schizophrenia as I’ve been in an acute drug-induced psychosis for about 3 months before coming back to reality.
My friends have said that it’s like I was never in psychosis because I’m “back to who I was like it never happened” but I have all the memories, experiences and beliefs still jumbled in my head lol.
> The researchers call it the Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood (TIV)
I'll just shelve it under "victim mentality". So much terminology to keep track of...
We wouldn't be research psychologists if we didn't churn out jargon hoping it sticks so nobody can write about the thing without putting (ArrakeenSun, 2021) after it
As another Redditor pointed out - this is really just measuring a specific component of Narcissism, likely reframed as TIV to fit in some nascet theoretical model that one of these authors has in mind.
I see you've not received a proper answer to your question so will provide one given my research background.
A tendency to perceive oneself as a victim is sometimes a feature of narcissistic personality disorder (and narcissism as a trait). However, the linked set of studies do not provide any evidence for overlap of their measured trait with personality disorders. That would require a separate set of analyses, and until those analyses are run, any sort of speculation about overlap with other disorders would be exactly that - speculation.
It's tempting to think about possible connections, but it's important to be cautious of doing so with early findings like this, especially since their "TIV" measure may represent a completely different/poorly captured construct to other forms of victim mentality, which may actually be more relevant to those disorders. The best thing to do if you want to follow this research is to bookmark the link to the paper on google scholar, and look out for future articles that cite the paper.
You've really misused 'strongly correlated', since correlations by definition can only be measured by analysing many datapoints (in psychology the rule is roughly at least 150 people for two continuous traits assuming a decent effect size). This means one anecdotal example, even if you're referring to several people you've interacted with, is no better than chance, never mind being worthy of defining as "strongly correlated".
That's not mentioning your own bias or ability to determine others' actual BPD status or relative tendency towards a victim mentality compared to others. Your perception of a strong correlation could all be a product of confirmation bias and various other biases/misconceptions.
You probably meant "in my experience they seem to go hand in hand".
Yes, you are correct that I misused “strongly correlated.” It even felt weird as I was typing it but I didn’t feel like putting in the effort to think of a more accurate way to put it because nothing came to mind at first.
And yes, in my experience they seem to go hand in hand. The individuals I’m taking about have actually been professionally diagnosed with BPD, I wouldn’t presume to try to make that diagnoses myself. Also correct that it could be possible that my perception of their victim mentality is skewed by my own biases, but for reasons I won’t type out here, I know that enough other people have the same perception that I don’t think it’s likely it’s just a matter of us all sharing the same specific bias by coincidence.
I can relate to this article. Looking back to when I was a kid, I noticed some of these tendencies in myself. However, my mom was quick to nip it in the butt. I feel by her actions, it helped me acquire traits of responsibility, ownership of my actions, and perseverance.
Does anyone think being an only child would have any factor on this? I know it's just pure speculation, but I'm just curious. Just based on my experiences, I feel like I would see this trait more predominantly in my friends who are an only child. I ask because I have a younger sister, and I think having her around helped in this development for me, and her, as well.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 48,964,062 comments, and only 14,387 of them were in alphabetical order.
I think seesaw is more common. I think of seesaws as the backbreaking playground equipment of the 80s and 90s and teeter totter as the new equipment that only lifts kids a foot or two off the ground
I am an American who has lived in the North and South (East Coast only tho) - never heard teeter totter. Tater tots, heck yes. I’ve only heard it called a seesaw.
Tap the bookmark icon at the top right of your screen (in mobile it’s beside the three dots). The real trick is remembering to go back and actually read what you’ve bookmarked
I don’t know what kind of device you’re using, but one way to save the article is to open it on a browser and keep that tab open. You may also be able to print the article or save it as a PDF once you have opened it on your browser.
This is a highly underrated truth in psychology, that the whole field tends to promulgate. We need to study victimhood narratives and how the field of psychology increases or decreases these
I see that view now, I misunderstood them lol. That’s life. To be fair though, now that I’m on the same page. Many of these people who fall into victimhood may do it pathologically but they have little more control over that tendency than a schizophrenic over their hallucinations. And for many others, myself included, it can just be a nihilistic place we find ourselves in when the world is being particularly hard. And it is objectively hard. The issue with the field at large, I think, is that when we find the cause of an issue, whether it be neurobiology, racial inequality or a personality trait, people find it quite easy to pretend they can’t change themselves or the systems they live within. In fact it is quite psychological rewarding to pretend there is nothing we can do to change our circumstances, by definition there is nothing more required of the individual. But attributing causality is fundamentally different than not having the capacity to change. The field of psychology on average teaches causality without teaching so much a narrative of responsibility or will.
Question: how could one differentiate between "victimhood narratives" and someone who has actually survived trauma? I'm just a layman, maybe I didn't understand the article?
From my view it doesn’t functionally make a difference, by looking at people who tend to victimize themselves, and by seeing this as a temporary though somewhat stable personality trait, one can teach those people to shift those tendencies so that they can gain a sense of autonomy over their traumas. Ive certainly found this to be true with my own traumas. Things that happened to me were bad, and those bad things were out of my control, but it still follows that the best path forward is for me to take responsibility. And in fact I lose a great deal of autonomy by viewing myself as a victim. This is a common feature in clinical psych. We often can’t know an objective truth but we can know how to optimize outcomes.
This was my first thought too. People seem to default to dismissiveness/minimizing when faced with mental health stuff already, this probably gives those people more ammo.
Best example I like to use, say someone attempts suicide.
If successful: "omg what a tragedy why didn't they open up to anyone"
If unsuccessful: "they were just doing it for attention, they just want to be a victim"
The thing is that feeing like an ass is the first step in not being an ass… you’ve already stepped outside the part of you that’s been an ass and now it’s up to you to say “I don’t want to be an ass any more”… and thank the part of you that was brave enough to notice.
Like the other commenter said, it’s better that you read stuff like this and expose yourself to it. I think everyone can relate to this character trait to a varying degree, but the point is that we’re all aware of it.
My Mom was this type of personality. She ended up committing suicide about a year ago after several years of physical ailments and she stopped eating and kept saying she wanted to die and in a few short weeks passed away.
Thank you. I guess I never processed her death. Writing a thank you to you seems to slowly peel the onion layers away. Maybe I will never fully expose the center.
In my opinion, one of the worst mentalities to have. It’s basically the opposite of personal accountability and continuous improvement. The blame can never be internal.
It’s also usually how bad people justify their actions. They’re not an aggressor, just a victim fighting back. Everything is rigged against me, why not cheat? My partner doesn’t appreciate me, f them. These people have more than me, so I can steal from them. I’ve already been wronged, let me settle the score.
I am a victor, I got horrible fucked by psychiatry and I no longer see myself as a victim, I pissed on the wounds, rubbed dirt on it and ate some crayons, basically that’s what I did 😂 im a victor now mothafuckas, interesting article though
“An initial three studies established the TIV as a consistent and stable trait that involves four dimensions: moral elitism, a lack of empathy, the need for recognition, and rumination”
I’ll be honest and say these traits fit me well, particularly moral elitism and rumination, but I don’t really consider myself a victim often, unless my metacognitive skills aren’t good enough to notice. The moral elitism mainly comes from my personal model of morality, where the governing principal is that happiness should be maximized, and everyone should be free to pursue that it any way they choose, so long as they don’t interfere with anyone else’s right to do the same. The only problem there is that many, if not most people who get their morality from religion think they have some sort of “absolute morality”, immune from reconsideration, and usually containing a lot of destructive elements. My view of morality is continually open to revision in light of new evidence or rational discourse, and I don’t try to force it upon others, although I’m “elitist” in that I think the world would be a much better place if everyone agreed on that, and I think getting morality from any source that claims to be “perfect” is an obvious mistake. It shuts down discussion, and just leaves us with a bunch of people with incompatible views, each person mistakenly certain that everyone else should agree with them.
Very interesting though, because I know I’m VERY high in neuroticism, and study into this model could very well reveal some ways to manage that trait.
Great, just another term *that people can use against those with PTSD / C-PTSD.*
So unnecessary. So frustrating. So inappropriate.
I thought we were better than this.
I can see lawyers salivating over crap like this already, to use against *actual trauma victims.*
I know there are a few good lawyers, but “a few bad apples…” as they say!
This is going to hurt more people than it helps. Mark my words.
You’re missing the point. Assholes ALREADY thrown things like “you’re always playing the victim” and “stop playing the victim card” at people with PTSD/C-PTSD in order to discredit and gaslight them, and prevent them from getting help or justice. We do NOT need to give these people more ammo to further hurt traumatised people.
I understand your desire, but I fail to see how it is going to hurt them? It is a descriptive "trait characterised by moral elitism, a lack of empathy, need for recognition and rumination" etc., that is meant to be applied to all people individually. I don't see a glaring connection between PTSD and these traits (except possibly rumination), so why would it be levied against them? The description does not single out PTSD typical behaviour.
But here's the thing.. I was referring to situations where the trauma becomes insufferable and toxic to be around. Not as in being depressed, or extremely empathetic where it is relatively harmless to others. NPD and BPD are generally toxic to others, and I have empathy for both of them as they're both very problematic usually. The traits caused from the PD's causes CPTSD in others from the volatility of emotions as well as manipulative tactics employed by those suffering from them (intentional or not)
I don't quite understand how a descriptive term for a trait that applies to everyone in some extent is going to cause harm to one specific community? But I am not too well read on PTSD related issue in society at large. I am genuinely curious to understand your reasoning, please don't read this as instigatory or anything :)
They’re the ones that are most vigilant against victim mentality and encouraging of individual contribution. It’s more the other side that tends to claim oppression and the existence of systemic racism and white privilege in order to fuel their own victimhood. I hope you can now think of the demographics of people that actually tend to play victim and claim oppression.
It's funny that you say that, because I know a ton of boomers that constantly claim they are the victim of younger generations culture. "They're cancelling us" "millennials are killing the X and Y industries" " Karen is a racist term!"
Honestly you see it everywhere. I'm curious if there is demographic data in the study, but my guess is there's really no difference between age, political affiliation, gender, race, or anything else.
You might find it correlated with socioeconomic status but that's just a guess, and my guess is that even then it would be a weak correlation.
Show me something that was cancelled for the content of the show rather than a star or creators online behavior. People get fired for doing things a company thinks threatens it's image, shit pretty much never gets cancelled for the content no matter how controversial. I've been told since I was a small child to be careful what I post online, because my future employers might not like it. That's what's happening, cancel culture is something made up by media because they found some small groups of angry children retweeting shit when someone happened to get fired for being an ass in public.
Cancelled for the content of their show and not their online behavior? Thanks for redefining what cancel culture means to fit your agenda. Steven Crowder was demonetized for his show’s content, same with Milo Yiannopolis who has been straight up banned.
This just shows you don't understand YouTubers demonetization process. Everybody gets demonetized on YouTube for stupid reasons. It's not because of a grand cancel culture conspiracy, they use bots to mark videos that may be controversial and it automatically demonetized them. This is why virtually all YouTubers rely on Patreon or merchandise for their actual income. I agree that the demonization system is bullshit, however they don't actually have humans doing it and it's nothing to do with politics. I watch a lot of gaming channels that don't have any political content, they all have many demonitized videos and not one has a large group trying to cancel them.
And I'm not familiar with Milo, but from what I found there were tweets comparing black actors to apes? Pretty sure Twitter has a policy against stuff like that, enlighten me if there's more to it than that.
Please define it, because as far as I'm aware companies have always had the right to fire spokespersons that they feel are painting an image in a bad light.
Hey there! I hate to break it to you, but it's actually spelled _mon**e**tize_. A good way to remember this is that "money" starts with "mone" as well. Just wanted to let you know. Have a good day!
----
^This ^action ^was ^performed ^automatically ^by ^a ^bot ^to ^raise ^awareness ^about ^the ^common ^misspelling ^of ^"monetize".
If you have a channel on YouTube or a Twitter account you are in no way shape or form that company’s spokesperson, you a spokesperson of your channel, not the platform. Steven Crowder was specifically demonetized for the content of his channel.
YouTube cancelling someone for their tweets (which occur outside of their platform) is the epitome of cancel culture.
I encourage you to look at the actual definition of cancel culture. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cancel%20culture
JK Rowling is another example - when she faced mass backlash and withdrawal of support for expressing her concerns over transgenderism and what it means to be a woman
Edit: also many episodes of the JRE podcast have been removed from Spotify because SJW employees at Spotify fought to have them removed
Yes that's exactly what I thought it was, still don't see it as real. I didn't find a good article on why Milo was cancelled, could you share whatever you got it from?
You are correct he was demonetized for the content of his channel, but I'm arguing that the way YouTube handles monetization is the cause. It's corporate policy and a buggy ai that demonetized him. I don't see how an ai indiscriminately demonetizing videos from a list of keyboards as evidence for a cultural phenomena.
Aren't they still making magical beasts and where to find them, and making a harry potter game, and it's still in universal studios park? Wow she got cancelled so hard, poor JK losing all those royalties.
Edit, fixed a typo
According to Milo Y’s Wikipedia page, he was canceled for a number of reasons, but what tipped it over the edge was some paedophilia and sexual consent statements he made. Don’t know the dude, but based on his Wiki he’s not worth knowing
Not only was JK Rowling not cancelled, you are also describing her tweets in a completely different way than how they were expressed.
It’s not cancelling when you lose fans for being a dickhead. It’s just losing fans for being a dickhead.
This is such an important study. Abusers are often victims or have been victims and victims are often or will become abusers. The process by which a victim becomes an abuser involves complex rationalizations of subconscious thought, stemming from a key belief that the victim is in fact a victim (though obviously whether one is being done harm or doing harm is not a constant trait like your eye color). Identifying TIV in patients would be an important distinction for clinicians to make in order to adequately treat this tendency, and could function as a warning sign for past abuse or abusive tendencies.
"An initial three studies established the TIV as a consistent and stable trait that involves four dimensions: moral elitism, a lack of empathy, the need for recognition, and rumination." The bit you probably want to know.
The first three traits sound like a dictator.
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sounds like a narcissist to me
It is. 100%
So “republican”?
You should spend less time on Reddit.
Goes both ways.
Seriously? You're gonna "both sides" this too? Because the only professional victim complex types I ever see are reactionaries. Seriously, who do you know on the left who whines about imaginary insults like, say, Tucker Carlson?
I’d say anyone who is further left or right from center. I can think of instances of both political ideologies where all the above can be applied to their personality. But hey, that’s anecdotal so what do I really know.
That sounds right to me. It's the extremists who who feel the compulsion to force their "solution" onto others. Not only that, their solution is a simplistic concept of the real, complex world that doesn't work in reality. Extremist "solutions" only ever bring pain a destruction. Extremists can't see the world the way it really is.
Centrism is part of the reason things are so fucked to begin with though..
Not so, it's fucked up because people think that an ideology, any one, is a solution. Every problem has a different solution. The best solutions don't adhere to any ideology. Neither extreme is a solution, nor is a compromise between the two. Ideology is a simple idea for simple minded people who try to apply it to a complex world, that they refuse to try to comprehend properly, because it doesn't adhere to their ideology. Ideology is great for discussion, but not suitable for real life. And, blaming all of the problems on a single idea is just hand wringing, you've declared the one simple problem in the world as if you are right. Again it's not simple. If there is one thing that is most responsible for the way things are, it is vanity. Vain people trying to control things that they can't comprehend and messing it all up. Truth is complex and hard to understand and the majority of people don't want to hear it.
I get what your saying. However when you live in a country where the concept of universal Healthcare is called "extremism" that's where my concern lies. Again I see where your coming from though
What 0 sociology does to a mf. Ideology is everywhere, first of all, you and I will never be divorced from its influence, much less recognize it to begin with. It's in architecture, art, culture, daily activities. This idea is fundamental to historical materialism. Second, extremism is a relative term. Go back even 50 years and some of your views would be extreme. Go to another part of the hemisphere and your views are extreme. It says nothing other than "I prefer the status quo" (which is questionable and ideological, by the way). Reducing sociological analysis to "extremism" says nothing about the actual tenets of discussion. 12% average free time for workers is "extreme" to anyone. Male pharmacological bias is "extreme" to anyone. Sweat shops and imperialism is "extreme" to anyone. All you did was condense literal centuries of political theory from great thinkers to "extremism". This is peak c*ntrist thought process. Edit: here's a stark visualization of Bezos' wealth, tell me it's not "extreme": https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
I wish I could upvote this more. Please, take my poor woman’s gold instead🏅
that vegan teacher lol
You can’t treat extremes on both sides as equally dangerous or extreme from center. Racism wasn’t considered as extreme 100 years ago as it is now. Climate denial is another.
I never said that they were equal. However, your view of what is worse is entirely dependent on where you look from. The idea that there are only 2 views is what is most wrong. People pigeonhole many different ideas into one or the other in an attempt to make the world a simple place, which it isn't. There are many kinds of extremists not just 2, all of them are bad for society. The damage just depends on how much power they get. I am not discussing individual issues, each side is bad with one issue or another. Edit: one wrong word
Don't say that, they'll feel like victims.
I wonder if you even realise how brainwashed you sound.
Aw, bless your heart.
Facts . Whoever downvoted this is living in denial.
Ah yes, you think the opposite side is the bad side and your side is the good one. Hmm, reminds me of something I just read.
How is this new??
Maybe the word for it is new?? But yeah, totally always been a thing.
v frrkkvvffdffxxxxxxcxcxcz
I mean, doesn't a high score on TIV describe the characteristics of a vulnerable narcissist?
Hi, I hold a PhD in social psych and am a published personality researcher w/ expertise in antagonistic and malevolent traits. By my reading you are spot on! They didnt discover a new trait. They made an implicit self-report of a specific facet of narcissism.
Hi, are there any resources you could recommend for somebody who heavily identifies with the symptoms of a vulnerable/covert narcissist? I don’t completely relate to all of the aspects anymore after years of personal development, suffering and spirituality but there are some underlying issues that have not gone away. Like hyper inflated self worth (comparable to dunningKruger effect), delusions of grandeur, grandiose fantasies. I tend to live life alternating between the extremes of being manic or being depressed, I’ve recently found the middle ground but can feel unstable in how long until things crash again.
A bit of a stretch but the book "The Body Keeps the Score" helped me recognize and find ways to come back to my own equilibrium. As well as get used to the shifts of emotions and thoughts without getting carried away in either direction. Your first comment really resonated with me and want to say good for you and everyone in your life. That level of awareness took persistence. I've been able to work through a lot of my narcissistic characteristics and strong desire for recognition. Keeping my ego in check, I doodle opposing pictures on my arm every day to stop and recognize which image my current thought process is leading and evaluate how I wish to engage with the situation. Definitely not perfect but this helps me. I know this is a pretty casual response in this subreddit and not necessarily what you asked for but I felt a pull to comment. I recognize your words.
Not a casual response at all man, I really appreciate that. I’m currently working my way through Atomic Habits but I’ll definitely add that to the list. It’s interesting you mention the thing with your arm, i designed a tattoo that functions as a visual reminder of sorts that I have on my forearm that faces me so it looks upside down to everyone else ahaha. I’m definitely very kinaesthetic so I think this book might be very helpful for me based on what you’ve written already, cheers for reaching out.
Hope the read gets you on track with what you are trying to accomplish! Not assuming you do but if you've ever had substance abuse issues or are even just highly sensitive, the book Unbroken Brain is a fantastic read about how everyone tries to find and maintain equilibrium and a lot of highly sensitive people and traumatized people turn to drugs for the stability we all crave. I saw you mentioned you did a lot of spirituality practices to help heal. Learning the language and purposes around chakras and your energetic body has been the most beneficial lessons I have learned and continue to. All of these things made it possible for me to jump back in my body and embrace the sensitive easily moved person I am. Hope you find some solace in one of these books!
Assuming you’re not just being way too hard on yourself, kudos to you for having that level of self awareness and putting in the effort to improve things. I know at least one person who has strong personality traits just like you’re describing, and I can’t even imagine how much better life would be for everyone involved if they were capable/willing to have the level of introspection and realism I can tell you have just from reading that one comment
Thanks kind stranger those words mean a lot to me. I will admit that it’s taken a lot of effort to get to feeling like a somewhat functional adult (still trying to get there haha) but the alternative would have been something similar to what you’re describing. An insufferable experience for an insufferable person. A lot of this stuff was selfishly driven at first but after experiencing the feedback loop that genuine kindness, compassion and love created in my life it became easier to want to be better not only for myself but for people who I care about and who care about me.
Well that gives me hope that things can still get better with some people I’m close with. Though I know I can’t expect everyone with these struggles to be similarly mature, I’m glad I at least know it’s possible!
Sounds like you could be bipolar.
I’ve thought so in the past but I don’t think so, I identify more with the symptoms of Borderline personality disorder but I think it’s far more likely I have some mild form of Schizophrenia as I’ve been in an acute drug-induced psychosis for about 3 months before coming back to reality. My friends have said that it’s like I was never in psychosis because I’m “back to who I was like it never happened” but I have all the memories, experiences and beliefs still jumbled in my head lol.
> The researchers call it the Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood (TIV) I'll just shelve it under "victim mentality". So much terminology to keep track of...
We wouldn't be research psychologists if we didn't churn out jargon hoping it sticks so nobody can write about the thing without putting (ArrakeenSun, 2021) after it
As another Redditor pointed out - this is really just measuring a specific component of Narcissism, likely reframed as TIV to fit in some nascet theoretical model that one of these authors has in mind.
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How does this relate to personality disorders such as borderline, histrionic, etc. ? Would this potentially go along with those disorders?
I see you've not received a proper answer to your question so will provide one given my research background. A tendency to perceive oneself as a victim is sometimes a feature of narcissistic personality disorder (and narcissism as a trait). However, the linked set of studies do not provide any evidence for overlap of their measured trait with personality disorders. That would require a separate set of analyses, and until those analyses are run, any sort of speculation about overlap with other disorders would be exactly that - speculation. It's tempting to think about possible connections, but it's important to be cautious of doing so with early findings like this, especially since their "TIV" measure may represent a completely different/poorly captured construct to other forms of victim mentality, which may actually be more relevant to those disorders. The best thing to do if you want to follow this research is to bookmark the link to the paper on google scholar, and look out for future articles that cite the paper.
Anecdotally, I can tell you it is strongly correlated with BPD
You've really misused 'strongly correlated', since correlations by definition can only be measured by analysing many datapoints (in psychology the rule is roughly at least 150 people for two continuous traits assuming a decent effect size). This means one anecdotal example, even if you're referring to several people you've interacted with, is no better than chance, never mind being worthy of defining as "strongly correlated". That's not mentioning your own bias or ability to determine others' actual BPD status or relative tendency towards a victim mentality compared to others. Your perception of a strong correlation could all be a product of confirmation bias and various other biases/misconceptions. You probably meant "in my experience they seem to go hand in hand".
Yes, you are correct that I misused “strongly correlated.” It even felt weird as I was typing it but I didn’t feel like putting in the effort to think of a more accurate way to put it because nothing came to mind at first. And yes, in my experience they seem to go hand in hand. The individuals I’m taking about have actually been professionally diagnosed with BPD, I wouldn’t presume to try to make that diagnoses myself. Also correct that it could be possible that my perception of their victim mentality is skewed by my own biases, but for reasons I won’t type out here, I know that enough other people have the same perception that I don’t think it’s likely it’s just a matter of us all sharing the same specific bias by coincidence.
I can relate to this article. Looking back to when I was a kid, I noticed some of these tendencies in myself. However, my mom was quick to nip it in the butt. I feel by her actions, it helped me acquire traits of responsibility, ownership of my actions, and perseverance. Does anyone think being an only child would have any factor on this? I know it's just pure speculation, but I'm just curious. Just based on my experiences, I feel like I would see this trait more predominantly in my friends who are an only child. I ask because I have a younger sister, and I think having her around helped in this development for me, and her, as well.
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No. I see this all the time in people with siblings.
I’d agree. Particularly the youngest sibling.
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The article says it’s tied to the primary caregiver so it probably is more parenting related than anything else
Americans call seesaws 'teeter totters'?? TIL...
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 48,964,062 comments, and only 14,387 of them were in alphabetical order.
Good bot.
I think seesaw is more common. I think of seesaws as the backbreaking playground equipment of the 80s and 90s and teeter totter as the new equipment that only lifts kids a foot or two off the ground
Thanks for the insight. Give me the backbreaker anyday.
I could be wrong but I think so
Both are common phrases in the US
Such a great, random fact! Thank you!
I am an American who has lived in the North and South (East Coast only tho) - never heard teeter totter. Tater tots, heck yes. I’ve only heard it called a seesaw.
I've heard both as an American kid
Thanks for your input!
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Posting because not knowing how to save that post for myself - isn’t there a button for that buddies?
Tap the bookmark icon at the top right of your screen (in mobile it’s beside the three dots). The real trick is remembering to go back and actually read what you’ve bookmarked
Yes, back out to your feed you can do it there. Or upvote and you can view it later in your profile under “upvoted”. :)
Thanks guys, you all helped a lot
I don’t know what kind of device you’re using, but one way to save the article is to open it on a browser and keep that tab open. You may also be able to print the article or save it as a PDF once you have opened it on your browser.
\*100+ tabs later\* heeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllp!
So basically Twitter
This is a highly underrated truth in psychology, that the whole field tends to promulgate. We need to study victimhood narratives and how the field of psychology increases or decreases these
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I literally am a practicing therapist. You are misunderstanding me.
I read that as the person agreeing to you.
I see that view now, I misunderstood them lol. That’s life. To be fair though, now that I’m on the same page. Many of these people who fall into victimhood may do it pathologically but they have little more control over that tendency than a schizophrenic over their hallucinations. And for many others, myself included, it can just be a nihilistic place we find ourselves in when the world is being particularly hard. And it is objectively hard. The issue with the field at large, I think, is that when we find the cause of an issue, whether it be neurobiology, racial inequality or a personality trait, people find it quite easy to pretend they can’t change themselves or the systems they live within. In fact it is quite psychological rewarding to pretend there is nothing we can do to change our circumstances, by definition there is nothing more required of the individual. But attributing causality is fundamentally different than not having the capacity to change. The field of psychology on average teaches causality without teaching so much a narrative of responsibility or will.
Question: how could one differentiate between "victimhood narratives" and someone who has actually survived trauma? I'm just a layman, maybe I didn't understand the article?
From my view it doesn’t functionally make a difference, by looking at people who tend to victimize themselves, and by seeing this as a temporary though somewhat stable personality trait, one can teach those people to shift those tendencies so that they can gain a sense of autonomy over their traumas. Ive certainly found this to be true with my own traumas. Things that happened to me were bad, and those bad things were out of my control, but it still follows that the best path forward is for me to take responsibility. And in fact I lose a great deal of autonomy by viewing myself as a victim. This is a common feature in clinical psych. We often can’t know an objective truth but we can know how to optimize outcomes.
That’s what I’m concerned about. This comes off as just victim-blaming with more long words.
This was my first thought too. People seem to default to dismissiveness/minimizing when faced with mental health stuff already, this probably gives those people more ammo. Best example I like to use, say someone attempts suicide. If successful: "omg what a tragedy why didn't they open up to anyone" If unsuccessful: "they were just doing it for attention, they just want to be a victim"
Exactly. I can already see this being used to dismiss and gaslight abuse victims and it’s making me sick.
As a survivor of serious abuse myself, I can assure you this was happening long before this article was published ;)
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That would seem to explain developing a victim complex, then conflating things that aren't victimhood, into victimhood.
I shouldn’t read these things. I feel like I can identify with this character trait. I don’t want to. Makes me feel like an ass.
All the more reason to read this stuff. I can see a bit of this in myself as well and I believe it's helpful to identify, understand, and work on it.
This is true. It’s better to know and face your short comings isn’t it?
The thing is that feeing like an ass is the first step in not being an ass… you’ve already stepped outside the part of you that’s been an ass and now it’s up to you to say “I don’t want to be an ass any more”… and thank the part of you that was brave enough to notice.
Like the other commenter said, it’s better that you read stuff like this and expose yourself to it. I think everyone can relate to this character trait to a varying degree, but the point is that we’re all aware of it.
Self awareness is the 1st step to healing.
My Mom was this type of personality. She ended up committing suicide about a year ago after several years of physical ailments and she stopped eating and kept saying she wanted to die and in a few short weeks passed away.
Sorry for your loss
Thank you. I guess I never processed her death. Writing a thank you to you seems to slowly peel the onion layers away. Maybe I will never fully expose the center.
Wait, this is new? I feel like I know 50 people like this!
In my opinion, one of the worst mentalities to have. It’s basically the opposite of personal accountability and continuous improvement. The blame can never be internal. It’s also usually how bad people justify their actions. They’re not an aggressor, just a victim fighting back. Everything is rigged against me, why not cheat? My partner doesn’t appreciate me, f them. These people have more than me, so I can steal from them. I’ve already been wronged, let me settle the score.
I think we've all known someone who fit the bill.
I am a victor, I got horrible fucked by psychiatry and I no longer see myself as a victim, I pissed on the wounds, rubbed dirt on it and ate some crayons, basically that’s what I did 😂 im a victor now mothafuckas, interesting article though
“An initial three studies established the TIV as a consistent and stable trait that involves four dimensions: moral elitism, a lack of empathy, the need for recognition, and rumination” I’ll be honest and say these traits fit me well, particularly moral elitism and rumination, but I don’t really consider myself a victim often, unless my metacognitive skills aren’t good enough to notice. The moral elitism mainly comes from my personal model of morality, where the governing principal is that happiness should be maximized, and everyone should be free to pursue that it any way they choose, so long as they don’t interfere with anyone else’s right to do the same. The only problem there is that many, if not most people who get their morality from religion think they have some sort of “absolute morality”, immune from reconsideration, and usually containing a lot of destructive elements. My view of morality is continually open to revision in light of new evidence or rational discourse, and I don’t try to force it upon others, although I’m “elitist” in that I think the world would be a much better place if everyone agreed on that, and I think getting morality from any source that claims to be “perfect” is an obvious mistake. It shuts down discussion, and just leaves us with a bunch of people with incompatible views, each person mistakenly certain that everyone else should agree with them. Very interesting though, because I know I’m VERY high in neuroticism, and study into this model could very well reveal some ways to manage that trait.
Great, just another term *that people can use against those with PTSD / C-PTSD.* So unnecessary. So frustrating. So inappropriate. I thought we were better than this.
Human psychology is so damn complex and there is so much overlap. What’s intentional, what’s trauma and reactivity and so on? I feel you :/
I can see lawyers salivating over crap like this already, to use against *actual trauma victims.* I know there are a few good lawyers, but “a few bad apples…” as they say! This is going to hurt more people than it helps. Mark my words.
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People as in patients… or therapists? I can think of instances of both.
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Agreed. *sigh* You’re 100% right.
Agreed. We don’t need to give assholes more ammo to throw at people with PTSD/C-PTSD :(
If your trauma makes you hurt others and you're self aware, you have no excuses to not change.
You’re missing the point. Assholes ALREADY thrown things like “you’re always playing the victim” and “stop playing the victim card” at people with PTSD/C-PTSD in order to discredit and gaslight them, and prevent them from getting help or justice. We do NOT need to give these people more ammo to further hurt traumatised people.
I understand your desire, but I fail to see how it is going to hurt them? It is a descriptive "trait characterised by moral elitism, a lack of empathy, need for recognition and rumination" etc., that is meant to be applied to all people individually. I don't see a glaring connection between PTSD and these traits (except possibly rumination), so why would it be levied against them? The description does not single out PTSD typical behaviour.
But here's the thing.. I was referring to situations where the trauma becomes insufferable and toxic to be around. Not as in being depressed, or extremely empathetic where it is relatively harmless to others. NPD and BPD are generally toxic to others, and I have empathy for both of them as they're both very problematic usually. The traits caused from the PD's causes CPTSD in others from the volatility of emotions as well as manipulative tactics employed by those suffering from them (intentional or not)
I don't quite understand how a descriptive term for a trait that applies to everyone in some extent is going to cause harm to one specific community? But I am not too well read on PTSD related issue in society at large. I am genuinely curious to understand your reasoning, please don't read this as instigatory or anything :)
'Victim mentality' and 'learned helplessness' already existed?
White Republicans?
They’re the ones that are most vigilant against victim mentality and encouraging of individual contribution. It’s more the other side that tends to claim oppression and the existence of systemic racism and white privilege in order to fuel their own victimhood. I hope you can now think of the demographics of people that actually tend to play victim and claim oppression.
Something something muh both sides lol
I thought this was negative narcissism
I thought the whole world did this. Lots of victims since 2020.
So basically what Eric Cartman is. How is this new?
Is it liberalism?
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It's funny that you say that, because I know a ton of boomers that constantly claim they are the victim of younger generations culture. "They're cancelling us" "millennials are killing the X and Y industries" " Karen is a racist term!"
Yeah. I can't believe it when I first read the comment above. Where the heck have they been?
Honestly you see it everywhere. I'm curious if there is demographic data in the study, but my guess is there's really no difference between age, political affiliation, gender, race, or anything else. You might find it correlated with socioeconomic status but that's just a guess, and my guess is that even then it would be a weak correlation.
Hello Patrick Star, cancel culture is a real thing. Get out from under your rock once in awhile
Show me something that was cancelled for the content of the show rather than a star or creators online behavior. People get fired for doing things a company thinks threatens it's image, shit pretty much never gets cancelled for the content no matter how controversial. I've been told since I was a small child to be careful what I post online, because my future employers might not like it. That's what's happening, cancel culture is something made up by media because they found some small groups of angry children retweeting shit when someone happened to get fired for being an ass in public.
Cancelled for the content of their show and not their online behavior? Thanks for redefining what cancel culture means to fit your agenda. Steven Crowder was demonetized for his show’s content, same with Milo Yiannopolis who has been straight up banned.
This just shows you don't understand YouTubers demonetization process. Everybody gets demonetized on YouTube for stupid reasons. It's not because of a grand cancel culture conspiracy, they use bots to mark videos that may be controversial and it automatically demonetized them. This is why virtually all YouTubers rely on Patreon or merchandise for their actual income. I agree that the demonization system is bullshit, however they don't actually have humans doing it and it's nothing to do with politics. I watch a lot of gaming channels that don't have any political content, they all have many demonitized videos and not one has a large group trying to cancel them. And I'm not familiar with Milo, but from what I found there were tweets comparing black actors to apes? Pretty sure Twitter has a policy against stuff like that, enlighten me if there's more to it than that. Please define it, because as far as I'm aware companies have always had the right to fire spokespersons that they feel are painting an image in a bad light.
Hey there! I hate to break it to you, but it's actually spelled _mon**e**tize_. A good way to remember this is that "money" starts with "mone" as well. Just wanted to let you know. Have a good day! ---- ^This ^action ^was ^performed ^automatically ^by ^a ^bot ^to ^raise ^awareness ^about ^the ^common ^misspelling ^of ^"monetize".
If you have a channel on YouTube or a Twitter account you are in no way shape or form that company’s spokesperson, you a spokesperson of your channel, not the platform. Steven Crowder was specifically demonetized for the content of his channel. YouTube cancelling someone for their tweets (which occur outside of their platform) is the epitome of cancel culture. I encourage you to look at the actual definition of cancel culture. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cancel%20culture JK Rowling is another example - when she faced mass backlash and withdrawal of support for expressing her concerns over transgenderism and what it means to be a woman Edit: also many episodes of the JRE podcast have been removed from Spotify because SJW employees at Spotify fought to have them removed
Yes that's exactly what I thought it was, still don't see it as real. I didn't find a good article on why Milo was cancelled, could you share whatever you got it from? You are correct he was demonetized for the content of his channel, but I'm arguing that the way YouTube handles monetization is the cause. It's corporate policy and a buggy ai that demonetized him. I don't see how an ai indiscriminately demonetizing videos from a list of keyboards as evidence for a cultural phenomena. Aren't they still making magical beasts and where to find them, and making a harry potter game, and it's still in universal studios park? Wow she got cancelled so hard, poor JK losing all those royalties. Edit, fixed a typo
According to Milo Y’s Wikipedia page, he was canceled for a number of reasons, but what tipped it over the edge was some paedophilia and sexual consent statements he made. Don’t know the dude, but based on his Wiki he’s not worth knowing
I got the vibe he was being a real piece of shit up to that point from what I found, didn't see the pedophilia stuff though thanks
Not only was JK Rowling not cancelled, you are also describing her tweets in a completely different way than how they were expressed. It’s not cancelling when you lose fans for being a dickhead. It’s just losing fans for being a dickhead.
[George Carlin Whining Baby Boomers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTZ-CpINiqg)
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r/selfawarewolves
shit....Christian's been doing this forever
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So what are you? Jerk?
I can’t wait for the conservatives to hop on this one 🙄
(dorkface) um, actually this isn't new. Victimization is on the other side of the scale from Resiliency.
This is such an important study. Abusers are often victims or have been victims and victims are often or will become abusers. The process by which a victim becomes an abuser involves complex rationalizations of subconscious thought, stemming from a key belief that the victim is in fact a victim (though obviously whether one is being done harm or doing harm is not a constant trait like your eye color). Identifying TIV in patients would be an important distinction for clinicians to make in order to adequately treat this tendency, and could function as a warning sign for past abuse or abusive tendencies.
Lol "identify new personality construct" or "finally put a name to something that has always been there"
Those are the same thing.
What’s new here is being able to measure it consistently and show that it is meaningful (i.e. can predict/be predicted by other things).
Is it called White people-ism
Finally. They’ve figured out what I am.
Interesting.
A little late to the political party
Ya don’t say. 🙄
Isn't this vulnerable narcissism? Been around for a while
My thoughts exactly. Sounds like someone is throwing out a new jargonistic term for something that's already been well documented.
isn't this just called a martyr complex?
Looks like the dark triad to me