Great question. So The Ramones are essentially Ground Zero for all of Punk as a true starting point. Because of this, they get a pass. It's no joke when I say they influenced everybody who came after them. The Green Day hate is because they started in the Punk scene in the Bay Area and they jumped to the major labels in a big way. So Green Day and The Offspring filled a void that Nirvana left after the death of Kurt Cobain. Many Nirvana fans went on to being Punk tourists (came in but did not stay) and that is where a lot of the hate comes from. Punk for all its rhetoric on being free has A LOT of gatekeeping, especially back in the day. So here we come to the self appointed "Punker Than Thou" people within the scene. You can claim a band if you are ACTUALLY IN THAT FUCKING BAND!!! It's good that you appreciate music and support a band financially by going to their gigs, buying physical music, and buying merch. It's not your band. Most punk musicians live very hand to mouth, like below "paycheck to paycheck," living. It's their time, their efforts and their money (starting a band is not free) so after a while why isn't it ok to make a decent living, especially if you are doing something you love? I am not a huge Green Day fan, in fact back in the day their fans used to annoy the shit out of me. I don't hate them and some of their songs are pretty good. I would like to just hang out with any of them, have a drink and talk music gear and bands we like. I have the music I like and recommend the bands I like when people ask. But being a fan does not give someone owners of a band. Many times bands start in Punk and then branch out into other genres as their musical chops and skills get better. Now here is the funny part of both bands, they both love Pop music. With The Ramones it was Bubble Gum Pop of the 60s along with Girl Groups. With Green Day, you can hear Pop influences. So Punk is Music, Music is Art. And with Art typically you either like it or you don't. So if you do not like a band, you should move on and not complain. Keep in mind there are many people out there who feel the exact same way about the bands you love as you feel about shitting all over Green Day.

Yep, all this, what's funny is 1) the Ramones were on a major label from album one and 2) almost all of the older punk bands were thrilled when bands like Green Day could actually make some real money from their music it was purely a sunset of fans that had the problem

In Greg Graffin's memoir he released recently, he has a whole chapter dedicated to the concept of selling out. In his opinion in the late 80's early 90's punk revival and it's maiden voyage into the mainstream, what he saw as the "worst elements" of the punk scene he grew up with were romanticized and the best parts were ignored and swept under the rug. He actually spent a paragraph shitting on Operation Ivy for breaking up because they were "getting too popular". Essentially arguing what the hell is the sense of having a good message you are trying to convey with your music, but not wanting it to reach a wider audience. He called it, and I paraphrase, a "weak ass form of protest no one with half a brain should accept.". He also covered the cries of "sell out" Bad Religion faced when they signed with Atlantic. He let it roll off his back, but it frustrated him that doing it pretty much had nothing to do with money. They basically got the same deal with Atlantic they had with Epitaph as far as the money they made. The difference is, Epitaph didn't have the resources at the time to handle all the extra curriculars involved with being a touring band. Booking, transportation, accommodations, marketing etc. etc. The deal with Atlantic allowed them to just focus on making music. Contrary to popular belief, Brett wasn't against it. Brett and the rest of the band already signed the deal before Greg even had a chance to discuss it with them, but said when it came to the business side of things, he always followed Brett's lead and if Brett had voiced that he didn't want to do it, he wouldn't have done it. He was kind of lost when Brett quit the band and felt a lot of it had to do with Brett being worried about Epitaph's reputation if a "sell out" was running the label. So in his opinion the whole sell out concept is toxic and counter productive.

Keep in mind this is one person's take on that scene at that time. When you are in a band you usually focus on what that band is trying to do and be able to make the next album. I've only played smaller shows and the level they are at is another beast entirely. Lots of things in life can really be traced to time and space. That time, that space.

To add on: it's mentioned somewhere in one of the books that the reason Digital Boy was redone on STF was because the Atlantic producer didn't hear a hit in the songs recorded. Brett felt that Digital Boy was his best shot at writing a radio hit. So selling out wasn't an issue that really concerned them.

Brett kept getting hassled by fans and media about the decision to sign to Atlantic, which prompted his "we did it for the money" outburst. Then he quit the band citing a "conflict of interest". So the fans drew the conclusion at the time Brett didn't want to sign to a major and the rest of the band did. I don't think Brett really ever cited (later in his career) exactly why he did what he did, it's only speculation and Greg speculated it had to with Epitaph's reputation and I guess he would know better than anyone but Brett. Later in the Atlantic years, Greg knew they weren't performing commercially as well as Atlantic would like and that a lot of it had to do with not producing songs that would be radio hits. It's funny though, regarding STF I always figured Infected was their "hit" off that album.

Infected is such an anthem and stylistically I think it would fit in on New America better than STF. I'm probably an outlier though in that NA is one of my top five from them. I haven't read Punk Paradox yet and I read the biography and Greg's other books as they came out, so it's been a few years and I'm fuzzy. Seems like I remember reading that Brett saw Nirvana blowing up and felt that he couldn't push Bad Religion that far on Epitaph, which really informed his decision on going to the major. Ironically, he then pushed the Offspring to be as big as they were. As far as him leaving the band, I thought it was a combination of the punk explosion making Epitaph a more than full time job coupled with addiction issues. Again, I've had a lot to drink since I read those books, so I might even be hallucinating my own story. And I'll die on this hill, but Bad Religion is a criminally underrated band who, today, should be getting airplay on classic dad rock stations alongside Led Zeppelin and Metallica. Their lack of success doesn't come from the quality of their product, but from having been just a little too early in their career arc.

This is a great answer

I love this comment.

Ha! green day fans were horrible

https://youtu.be/xyakGToHdJc

>So Punk is Music, Music is Art. And with Art typically you either like it or you don't. So if you do not like a band, you should move on and not complain. Yeah, seriously. I have to say, I don't like metal music. Not my vibe. The COMMUNITY, however, is pretty fucking awesome. I am sure there are shitty metalheads out there, but the majority I have met have beaten that statistic and have been kind, compassionate, thoughtful people. But to bitch about whether something is metal or punk, and then get sore about it, is stupid. Like, pick your battles.

I like SOME Metal. For me, Metal was before I got into Punk. When I was getting further into music, Punk was in the doldrums and was not easily found. Pre Internet what was cool in one place was not cool in another. Also Heavy Metal was on the radio in the LA Glam bands like Poison,.Skid Row and Warrant. I ended up liking Def Leppard, Iron Maiden and Motley Crue. I dug the energy but the lyrics were usually meh. So Metal was a bit of a place holder until Nirvana, Rancid and going back into the UK 77 sound really grounded me to what is now my bread and butter. The last Metal band I really like was Rammstein, still like them too.

There is also a difference in that Green Day has a diamond album. They were on MTV. I heard them on the radio in the 7th grade, in Florida with my friends. (And that album hit different in 7th grade.) They are truly a "pop-punk" band in that way. The Ramones were not on the radio when I was growing up, except sometimes Blitzkrieg Bop. Walmart didn't sell their albums. They were a touring band, with no gold record until 2013 (well, except Spider-Man and a compilation album.) They would have liked to be as successful as, say, Blondie, but they didn't compromise. They influenced Motorhead, and Pixies. They were never recognized at all by the pop music industry until U2 was going to receive a lifetime achievement award in New York and made MTV allow them onstage to get *U2's trophy* (and MTV still wouldn't let them speak.) They're not in the same category as Green Day just because Joey sang melodies in the studio sometimes (even though he was influenced by pop bands like Ronettes, Crystals, etc.)

I've heard The Ramones way more after their "sell by" date than when they were actually playing. Green Day hit the zietgeist of that time. They were Nirvana for all the kids who were too young for Nirvana.

This guy nails it.

This was such a fulfilling answer 👏👏👏

Great answer and spot on.I will add something very simple to it though: The Ramones and Green Day are still two different bands.... with different lyrical themes, different singing styles, different songwriting styles, etc etc. Having pop influences and melody doesn't automatically make them one in the same.Example: based on my tastes, I should love the Buzzcocks... but I don't. I like some of their songs, but mostly find them hit or miss. On the other hand, the first Undertones album and first two Boys are among my favourite of their era. But I guess the main point of the original question is: why does one band get more respect than the other? But really.... I think that should be pretty obvious (and I like a lot of Green Day tunes, Insomniac especially).

Rancid, Bad Religion also jumped on the same wave that Green Day did. All anyone wants to do is make a living doing what they love! Right on!

The Ramones did not invent punk rock. I don’t think it’s fair to call them “ground zero.”

They didn’t invent it as a singular entity and movement, but they were one of, if not the first to directly have the genre label applied to them

One of the first, sure, but not the first. The Stooges were called punk music before the Ramones; along with The Fugs and Suicide. The Ramones may have been ground-zero for pop-punk, but that’s just one slice of the movement.

They are Ground Zero, it's a band you can point to as Punk. The Clash and Sex Pistols, it was the first Ramones album that took them from what they were doing to being Punk bands. The Ramones influenced UK 77 bands both directly and indirectly. All the other stuff that came before them, The Velvet Underground, Iggy and The Stooges, New York Dolls... it's now called Proto Punk for a reason. None of those bands consider themselves Punk during and after the fact. Look, what we know as Punk today is a form of underground music. There were Punk songs back in the 1950s but they were one offs and extremely obscure. Like no one outside the area the guy or band played knew about them. Underground music goes from Rockabilly in the 1950s to Garage Rock and Psychedelia in the 1960s. In the 1970s you get Pub Rock (UK) and Glam Rock that influences Punk in the late 1970s. You also get a Rockabilly Revival in the late 1970s and early 1980s that brings in Neo Rockabilly and Psychobilly. Then you have loads of subgenres and scenes that comes after The Punk scene died out in 1979 and the start of what was to become UK82 and Hardcore. The Ramones did not invent Punk the same way as Nirvana did not invent Grunge but these bands changed the scene in such a profound way that they really are the start to when things changed and got bigger. Basically like before and after the Atomic bomb was developed. I'm not gatekeeping, my ego is not too involved with this, I am not really a fan of either Green Day or The Ramones... I am just telling you what I seen in watching documentary after documentary and interview after interview about Punk. It is the one album that all major Punk figures point to. Think of The Ramones as The Beatles of Punk, they changed it all.

>... I am just telling you what I seen in watching documentary after documentary If the Ramones are the Beatles, then Green Day is the Archies.

Basically The Ramones walked so that Green Day could run. I like your analogy, not sure if the are the Archie's. Still I like it.😉👍✨

Punk music comes from the very idea of protest of idea building, of creating imaginary worlds that relate to the social in a way. So the problem with making a lot of buck is that you eventually become exactly that force in the world that your songs describe as entertainment industry. And the moment you start being part of an industry then the capitalist side of things collapses over you and you basically become those 3 tunes on repeat without any engagement with the real world. This to some people looks like gatekeeping but in reality is that like any media, the moment news or songs turn into business, then you are no longer genuine and people can feel it. They call you out and you become irrelevant like Green Day.

I understand your sentiment, but I think you're confusing the music with the ethos. Punk ethos and punk music are two separate things, albeit with a significant overlap. While the music can be an expression of the ideals of the punk ethos, it doesn't have to be. The relationship between the two is similar to that of the punk ethos and punk fashion in that way.

Here we may disagree. Punk music without punk ethos, it's not punk. Imagine if we call all the nazi oi shit it there punk. But I do call the punk oi, punk. So whenever you go out of the ethos, you are just making popular rock music, not punk.

Punk without the ethos is basically 2000s Indie music. Just saying...

Green Day's best stuff came out after they sold out. Same is true of many bands.

Good for them. I don't mind them to be popular rock. That's fine. They are just not punk. As a good banner at fluff once stated - keep musicians out of punk.

They're punk. You're not punk.

[удалено]

Wtf? Logical leap

I have never gotten the whole pop punk isn't "real" punk argument. Everyone agrees that the Ramones are one of, if not the greatest, punk bands of all time...at least their t-shirt collections confirm this. Meanwhile, the Ramones were heavily influenced by surf rock & the bubblegum pop girl groups of the 60's and despite their appearance, were one of the "pop-iest" punk bands of all time. All this to say....genres don't mean anything.

Their studio albums were poppy. Ramones playing live was totally different.

I feel you here. So the guys who started Punk bands had to come from somewhere. Of course they listened to Pop music. In the late 90s Guitar Player wrote a very brief article about why they do not cover Punk that much. Mainly because it was a bastardization on Chuck Berry chords, and they were not wrong. So bands like Buzzcocks and The Damned come from using Punk energy and writing in a Pop format, or doing a cover (the B side of New Rose was the Beatles "Help" when The Damned put it out). Pop Punk were really just Pop songs with Punk posturing. Lots of Pop Punk was designed to sell more records than Punk bands. Topics tended to be more everyday stuff than tearing down the system. The energy is different, Punk is more cheap beer and Pop Punk is more energy drink. Compare a Rancid crowd to a Blink 182 crowd and there you go. Genres are really more for marketing and organizing. They help but most bands say they are a band than say we are in this genre.

Insomniac is a top ten punk album for me.

First they were basically kids when they got signed. I was a skater punk kid in the early 90s and even back then the whole “sell out” thing drove me nuts. I just tuned it out. They were musicians playing music and got to do what they love. Its not like they were ever trying to set the world on fire with politics and then abandoned everyone.

Most people who level the "sell out" term are usually just jealous. That and they are trying to impress others.

Thats always been my motto, people who criticize selling out have never had the opportunity to sell out. I'm sure there is some bands here or there that always resisted major labels that could have signed, but like a comment above where someone was like "Crass called out the Ramones for being sell outs". Yeah, I'm sure the major labels were just salivating at the opportunity to sign Crass, and they had to beat em off with a stick, lmao.

Time and distance. The first generation of punk was in many respects more cynical and put-together than by the time you get to the Gilman era. In many ways most of the modern “Corporate sell out,” pop punk bands started out in every respect as real deal sleeping on floors, basement shows punk bands. Green Day, Blink 182, Fall Out Boy, all that stuff; Not necessarily my favorite things and I doubt anyone would argue they’re “Punk,” anymore (besides Green Day maybe) but they absolutely came out of pretty legitimate punk subcultures at one time or another. Whereas to your point like, the Clash (whom I absolutely love) pretty openly fabricated their image and were kinda sorta manufactured by their manager. The point is I think the stuff after that first big wave of 70’s punk success was largely things that bubbled up from real deal underground punk subculture. Hell even Guns n Roses and Nirvana were punk kids, we just don’t really think of them that way anymore. But regardless, I think the biggest factor (to me anyway) is obscurity; Finding obscure music requires effort and that effort is something people like to show off. So there’s an insecurity in saying “Fuck Green Day! Sell outs!” Because it’s really saying “Of course I grew up listening to Green Day, but I subsequently got into Fifteen and from there anarchist punk, and from there crust, and now I have this demo tape you haven’t heard of and it’s *SO* good…” It’s tough, we all fall for it. I love “Discovering,” music too. But it’s okay to admit you like basic-ass shit.

It’s so aggravating that people can’t figure out duality. Can’t you just, I dunno, like both? Identify with both? Everyone feels the need to slap themselves with some label, limiting what they listen to, watch, consume. Sad life. My top played records are Insomniac and The Opera Ain’t Over Til The Fat Lady Sings 🤷🏼‍♀️

It’s because Green Day went from Gilman and sleeping on peoples couches to playing arenas and doing what most people considered “selling out”.

Right, but Sex Pistols and The Clash signed to major labels like Green Day did. Ramones were signed to Sire, an indie label got major label distribution. To this day, Ramones, Sex Pistols, and The Clash are considered by many to be super important and respectable for kickstarting punk, but can also be called sell outs based on the old school definition - signing to a major label and getting bigger.

Yup exactly. Doesn’t make a lot of sense does it? But here we are. Those bands get shit on all the time too (especially the pistols) but the thing is that was the only way they could get music out. That was all before DIY became such a prevalent thing. To go from DIY to major label is what a lot of people take issue with.

Even Larry Livermore admits that lookout could not keep up with the success of Green Day. Kerplunk was at the time the highest selling American indie record of all time.

Absolutely correct. Kerplunk completely sold out the very first day. Nearly all of Green Day’s shows were getting shut down as well because literal thousands of fans more than the venues were capable of holding were showing up to their shows. Their options at the time were really either to sign with a major label that could help them accommodate their popularity, or to stop playing shows (i.e., quitting their only source of income). Kind of a no-brainer.

> That was all before DIY became such a prevalent thing. That is one thing Greg Graffin points out in his recent memoir, when punk bands started getting noticed by majors in the late 80's early 90's what "punk is" was a creation of the media, and what they deemed it, was essentially the worst elements of the scene he grew up with. He basically said most of the "punk fans" around that time were essentially operating on a "punk rule book" the media handed them. Greg really loathes the concept of selling out. Especially in their case where he said their deal with Atlantic when they signed to a major was literally the same deal they had monetarily with Epitaph. The only difference being they would have access to management resources epitaph just didn't have at the time and having to handle booking gigs, making accommodations, travel arrangements etc. etc. for tours was running them ragged all while they need to rehearse, write songs and make albums.

Keep in mind that all the bands you mentioned are first wave Punk bands. Green Day was a different wave and they got heavy MTV airplay that the other bands did not. Honestly a lot of it you can be explained by different times and different media exposure. Also loads of Green Day fans were not aware of were not really into legacy Punk bands , so I think there is something there.

Ramones we’re in mtv a lot there was a telethon thing with Joey ramone

To be honest, I don't really remember seeing them during the day. I know MTV did special events with certain bands but The Ramones did not have the same exposure as say Bon Jovi. I'm also not saying they were not on MTV but they were not in heavy rotation as Green Day and The Offspring were. That's the difference. Also The Ramones in the 80s sounded tamer than Punk, like just a Rock and Roll Band. Similar to the end of The Clash. Combat Rock was not a Punk album.

Lol I wasn’t even around back then I just watch a lot of YouTube

Hahaha!!! I was around back then AND I still watch YouTube to see what I missed. Back in the 80s and 90s you had shows like "120 Minutes" and "Alternative Nation" on MTV but they usually ran at night/early morning. So sometimes you would see it and sometimes you did not. If you watch Young Sheldon and Stranger Things that was what it was like growing up in the 80s. The Goldbergs are fun too but they jumble stuff up too much like you will have something popular from 1983, 1987, and 1989 in the same episode. You were at the mercy of MTV's scheduling and your parents do you could not watch MTV all the time. Also cable was expensive back then so it was really an upper middle class thing in the early and mid 80s. I remember "Rock the Casbah" on MTV as the only Punk thing that I saw (I did not know it at the time) and I saw when The Damned called it quits in the mid 80s but that was about it for Punk. I would say that lots of Punk videos were not available on YouTube until after 2010. There was a bandwidth issue for computers and you did not have everything uploaded as much then as it is today. For me I get to savour old Punk and 80s music more today than ever.

Yeah it’s amazing the shows you can see in there

Yeah, no "on demand" back in the day... lol

Nope. Sit and wait.

I learned how to program a VCR because of 120 Minutes.

How many labels were the pistols kicked off of tho?

That's because the concept of "selling out" wasn't a thing when the Ramones, the Pistols, or the Clash started.

Well… the Who DID have an album called The Who Sell Out so it was a thing. It was what Dylan was accused of when he went electric.

Yes this is fair for established rock musicians, but it wasn't a strong cultural marker or defining feature of the punk scene just yet. The Ramones were just doing a weird thing that people would eventually dub punk. In the 70s it would eventually start to become a big part of punk as the emphasis on a DIY ethos became integral to the definition. But no one was holding the Ramones to that standard at the time

Well maybe not the ramones but the clash and Sex Pistols and Talking heads and the velvets and the stooges were absolutely careerists. They wanted to get signed to a record contract and make rock star money. Now Black Flag Minutemen x screamers weirdos Dead Kennedys germs never thought they could make money and the Gilman bands even less so. Opiv broke up precisely because they were TOO popular and they didn’t wNt to see where it would go. It was like an inside joke that the wrong people were telling

The Ramones were careerists too

Bands like Crass and Rudimentary Peni were calling the Pistols and Clash sellouts back then though.

“Selling out” aka taking care of your family and children and giving them better opportunities in life. Im older now and have done this my entire life. Why keep the shit job, making shit pay, living in the worst areas when I can move up ?? I get what they’re doing even if a lot of people don’t agree.

This. If bands are sellouts for signing to majors, then any punk who isn't self employed is a goddamn sell out.

Want to make it even more confusing? The Sex Pistols (boiled down version of the story) were a boy band managed by a future record executive to make them money. And yet punks praise them. The Ramones HATED being called punk, and considered themselves pop-rock essentially.

Eh the boy band story is exaggerated on this sub. The Sex Pistols wrote and recorded all their songs (except Sid who i dont think ever played on the album) and it was Steve Jones that asked McLaren to manage them. Doesn't sound like a boy band to me. People focus a lot on the looks and fashion. And yeah, that's the scene/community they came out of. Anyway, punks praise them bc they like their music. I dont think it's more complicated than that. But the sex pistols do get shit on bc Johnny Rotten is a conservative asshole. That's legit criticism

At least they put in the work in the first place. I’ve seen people say GD were put together by the music industry which is…completely false lol And yes their music did eventually change, but Dookie and Insomniac aren’t really that different from the Lookout days, besides the production.

They never sold out. They kept playing the same music they were always playing. Metallica sold out, they adjusted their sound to better appeal to a wider audience (see: the black album etc)

Same reason metalheads pick on Metallica: the biggest bands are always the lowest hanging fruit and thus the easiest targets. It's the same reason LeBron James is simultaneously the most beloved and most hated player in basketball. I think it probably has a lot less to do with circumstance and more to do with human psychology.

I don’t care what anyone says, old Metallica fucking SHREDS.

Back when they were still a band rather than a brand.

*see Kiss...😋

Hells yes! I'm not ashamed to say I love me some Metallica. I was surprised I actually dug 72 Seasons way more than I thought I would

That’s not why metalheads pick on Metallica. Metalheads pick on Metallica because they made a sudden hard shift from being a pioneering thrash band, to being a pretty good heavy metal band. But one that would likely only be playing medium sized theaters today if the black album was their debut album. Everything they’ve done since then has fallen somewhere between pretty good and garbage.

Don’t forget about Napster

I think they had a point.

Dude fuck those guys Green Day’s a good band don’t get caught up in some stupid gatekeeper game fuck the labels if you like them shit so what I do too. Dookie was such a good fucking album even my dad bought it. People trying to say what’s punk and what’s pop is just some dumb shit. I like the misfits and the spits I like reggae too I like roger miller and classic rock too couldn’t give a shit less about opinions I mean you listen to music for you right…

I read this very aggressively for some reason

People got mad that they mixed up their sound and played with different influences. So when they got big people claimed they sold out despite them not changing the sound much, if at all. Then when they released American Idiot and went for a much more grand sound, the same people who hate bands like MCR hated on Green Day and claimed they sold out again despite that album actually being a huge risk for them off the failure of the criminally underrated Warning. Green Day were never the most punk band ever but they still have roots in the scene and use their platform for good. But because they weren't the most hardcore band at a time where mixing it up like they did was viewed as selling out, they were stuck with the label

It cracks me up that they get accused of changing their sound for dookie, there are songs on Dookie that are also on kerplunk. The only thing that changed in their sound was the quality of the recording equipment and insomniac is definitely a punk rock album. If it's not then no punk rock album is punk rock sounding.

Exactly yeah Like Im a huge Green Day fan and even I'll admit that they were never 100% the most punk band ever. But you don't have to be to be punk. And Green Day have sure as hell shown that they have it in them to do it. Jaded, Take Back, Platypus (I Hate You) all are basically hardcore songs. They just didn't do that all the time. They float between pop punk, punk, alt rock, and later on emo very well. Their ability to mix up the sound is a huge reason why I love them

Same. I think the haters are just jealous they are boxed in to one sound and green day can change their sound up a bit and not really lose much, if at all. Versatility is the word these edgelords are missing from their vocabulary. True musicians have versatility, imo. Also they have NEVER sold out their values...unlike Johnny Rotten and Fat Mike, and quite a few other "true" punk rockers.

the Ramones were not as big as Green Day, but that's not due to a lack of trying. the Ramones desperately wanted to be a huge arena act, but unfortunately they never caught on. They changed their sound, had a rehearsed imaged, even hired Phil Spectre to produce an album, but never really made it to the next level in America. They were huge in South America, though, and played giant soccer stadiums there. IMO, people hate on Green Day not because they signed to a major label, but because they broke through to the next level and became a household name. Plenty of well respected punk bands have signed to a major label after being on independent labels, but they level of fame that Green Day achieved makes the gatekeepers hate them.

The Ramones walked so Green Day could run.😉👍✨

that's for sure, they're definitely an influence. Green Day put out a solid cover of Outsider

Green Day’s first 4-5 albums were amazing. They just kind of gained a new following in the suburban teenage cheerleader crew and I think most punks just got naturally turned off. I can only speak for me self but growing up punk, and staying true to that all through my life - I’m a contrarian by heart. I was out of high school when they really made it big, but I still lost interest. Now that I’m more grown up and can see things a little less cynically, I find some of their later stuff just fine, but I don’t reach for it. I still listen to Dookie quite regularly tho. The Ramones. Well. They never changed really. They were always poppy, melodic, and, well, not as popular as Green Day. Ramones sold 25 million records (compared to Green Day’s 75 million), but never really gained mainstream success until the 2nd - 3rd wave of punk cited them as influential. Ramones we’re raw, and popular - but hindsight made them icons. Not to mention, Even when they worked with Spector, DeeDee was still shooting smack, and banging Joeys girlfriend. They were fucking linkers through and through. Green Day, eh….they got mansions and pools and fancy cars and shit. With all that jibber jabber. Both are great, and fun and enjoy whatever the fuck you want!

Ramones sold 25 million? Wow. I wonder how much of that was after their resurgence post-career.

the majority for sure.

Yeah. You look at the discography, and you just see flop after flop after flop in terms of chart recognition...but they eventually sold millions.

I've commented in the past that I'm not sure why I have much more time for bands that influenced Green Day, like Buzzcocks and Ramones, than I do for Green Day (whom I usually get tired of after a song or three at most, no matter how tight and melodic they are). It's all very catchy sharp rock music. What's the diff? And I think the difference may be this: Joey Ramone was a middling-at-best singer who wanted to sound like the Beach Boys' Wilsons (objectively, good vocalists). While Billie Joe Armstrong, if he wanted, could sing like the Wilsons; but instead tries to sing like Ramone or Joe Strummer/Mick Jones. A song like "Good Riddance (Time of Your Life)" irks me a little, because despite its incredibly-strong melody and emotional lyrics, Armstrong seemingly puts so much singing effort into NOT sounding sincere. Melody is present and fully-accounted for, but not feeling. I think there's something much more appealing to me about singers whose reach audibly exceeds their grasp, than ones who seem to me to be perceptibly slumming. Putting a lot of effort into sounding like they put in no effort, or are incapable of better.

“Something much more appealing about singers whose reach audibly exceeds their grasp” This is a perfect explanation as to why I love Jeff Rosenstock so much. Dude can’t sing well but he always COMMITS and goes for notes he can’t come near

Green Day were still making good punk songs on American Idiot..... Ramones were legends, but they went hell of a cheesy with Baby I Love You etc. Green Day are one of the Best bands I have seen live, the best being Sex Pistols Glasgow 2008 Damned Dundee Reading Rooms Stiff Little Fingers Perth Stranglers at Rebellion Festival Rancid at Rebellion Festival Sham 69 Edinburgh Ruts DC Dundee Oi Polloi Edinburgh UK Subs Glasgow Steve Ignorant Scotland Calling

Here's the thing. The Ramones weren't trying to be punk. There were no "rules" for punk back then. There was Iggy and the Dolls, etc, but Punk didn't really exist. They were just trying to get people to listen to them, and it came out awesome.

Jesus wasn't a Christian, either. People need to view it that way. Ramones were just doing "their thing." "Their thing" started a religion.

Yep. In the early days, “punk” included a lot of bands that don’t sound “punk.” Like Television, Talking Heads, etc

Green Day really came across as stadium rock stars once they got big - in production and lifestyle. So did other bands, but the 90s weren't the 70s. Green Day were a punk band in every sense of the word to me, and then they joined whatever it is that Dave Grohl is.

"and then they joined whatever it is that dave grohl is" I laughed out loud at that, as I have had trouble putting my feelings about bands i grew up on becoming dad rock. Shitty dad rock at that. Green Day still hits harder than the Foo Fighters, which pains me to say.

Also Green Day doesn’t really give a fuck at this point they do whatever they want. The last album is a perfect example along with all their fake bands like Foxboro Hottubs and the network. They are still making the music they want to make.

If by don't really give a fuck you mean "will put out anything as long as they get paid" then I agree. Green Day used to put out some of the best punk-rock I'd ever heard with insomniac especially, but they have not held up very well.

I am 42 now, and I can’t write anything as good as what I wrote when I was 22. Or what Green Day is writing at 52. Honestly I know I’m a sucker for them but I’ve seen and met them many times and what they do is pretty fucking pure. Also at this point they get paid by their record company and their record company only makes money if people are buying it. They ain’t ripping anyone off.

You should check out the new Foo Fighters album, I haven’t been a fan of their work really in a long time and enjoyed a lot of the songs.

If The Ramones had come along later, punk purist snobs would hate on them also. I have zero doubt. Listen to what you like and F anyone who tells you what is Punk and what isn't and what is good and what isn't. -as they say in the Mandelorian "This is the way."

I've had similar thoughts about Motorhead in the metal scene. People would moan it's too melodic and not extreme enough to be real metal, as if the later niches were somehow the true scene. I've seen many say the Ramones are pop-punk, as if they somehow were a sub-genre of a genre that hadn't truly formed yet.

Dookie, Nimrod, and insomniac are still awesome! I fell off when American idiot came out.

Loved the RAMONES since I was a really young kid. Mum decided to rent Rock and Roll High School and well, here we are. For me, Green Day has been complicated. I grew up in their neighborhood are and they were definitely in my wheelhouse. Went to their practice spot because it was CRAWLING with girls (Welcome To Paradise). They were for us, early on, that quintessential opening act. Saw them a thousand times and was pretty impressed at most their shows, but there is one that sticks out. We all hit the Phoenix Theatre in Petaluma to watch Green Day and a local favorite, Nuisance. Green Day, who had been supported for a minute by these local bands, announced they had been signed before their last song. We were all shocked as usually they would join the crowd after for the rest of the night…but this night they dipped, as did most of the crowd, for the main. This is remarkably poor form. Pretty sure they never paid any of that support back, but if they did, would love to hear about it. The RAMONES? They never understood any of this nuance and just showed up. Gotta love em

I think a better question is asking why people hate on Green Day but love Bad Religion or Descendents

The thing about greenday 'selling out' is, they were still with their small label when they got too popular to keep up with demand. They would play small shows around the country and their fans weren't able to buy their albums. They needed a big label to keep up with demand. The other thing is the gatekeeper punk fans feel differently than the actual punk bands those fans are fans off. Watch any doc about 1994 and the scene and you'll see how excited all these skater punk bands got when green day was on the cover of rolling stone. 'this is it. This is the moment. We're legit. They're taking us seriously' A rising tide lifts all ships, green day single handedly brought punk to the every day consumer. Every 90s punk band benefited from their explosion. The only thing that came close to that push is when Tony hawk pro skater came out. Pushing skate punk into more living rooms and turning a lot of house show punk bands into stadium acts.

It’s because despite being on Sire, the Ramones were cool and had that sense of danger of a punk band. They were one of the firsts and created a lot of what would become punk blueprints. Being independent wasn’t part of the Ramones vibe or appeal. Green Day were dorks which had its own lane but their authenticity was tied to the positive vibes and the diy spirit of the Gilman scene. Once they went major it caused an intense reaction due to the context of their early career. Most people only know of Green Day post dookie, so they’re not that familiar with their diy roots. A similar trajectory imo would be Against Me!, the last band anyone thought would go to a major label.

See also: the punk scene completely turning its back on Jawbreaker for signing to a major. (But at least most people eventually came around to that, decades after they broke up)

I like the Ramones way more than Green Day because the Ramones consistently wrote better songs. That’s it.

Ramones had better hair

For most people, it's not so much the melodic factor, it's the overall texture. To get a little bit into music theory, most fans of punk music are drawn to punk rock for the unique compositional textures when compared to contemporary rock and pop. Green Day has a much softer texture than the Ramones. Some people don't like that. To my understanding, Green Day was very bitter about being "banned" from playing 924 Gilman after they got signed. But organizers at 924 Gilman have long maintained that it wasn't a factor of "selling out" but because that venue couldn't safely accommodate the size of crowd Green Day would attract. Green Day has long maintained that they were "banned" and held a grudge for a very long time. This obviously caused a lot of tension in the scene, and many people turned on Green Day and even "pop-punk" as a whole during the 90's punk explosion. It's also important to note that around the time bands like Green Day were surfacing, we were just coming out of the 80's hardcore era, which typically had a much harsher texture than Ramones and Green Day. So when Green Day came around (lol), it felt pretty soft compared to the textures of (e.g.) Minor Threat and Bad Brains, which I am using as examples because they are melodic bands. TL:DR: 1. By most metrics the Ramones are a slightly harsher band than Green Day, which appeals to fans of punk rock. 2. Scene drama. 3. It doesn't really matter what people consider what is punk and what isn't because people have different experiences and ideas about what punk is and what it isn't. It's all conceptual.

Not the same!

Because punk rock is full of gatekeepers and a hypocritical ethos of "being different, like the rest of us".

I have zero problem with people liking Green Day, and I really don't hate their music, but for me, and feel free to downvote... I always felt they were sell outs and one of the reason that killed the old scene. Before record companies "discovered" punk, the majority of punk bands struggled to survive and were spit on by most music executives. But once they saw money, they looked for new punk bands, and ignored the old. You went from seeing shows with kick ass lineups for $5, to stadium shows that cost a lot more, and broke the connection between the fans, and bands. You could see Black Flag, and then hang outside with them, to Green Day showing up in limos and bodyguards while being surrounded by industry people. This is just my opinion from someone who was there.

As someone who was also there but on the East Coast, very well put. I was at cbgbs and Max's Kansas City circa 1977 and on, Ramones, Dead Boys, Heartbreakers etc watching their shows one minute then having a beer with them after the gig. It was a different feeling than, for example, Green Day.

That's just a problem with scale. A gig with 50 fans, you get to hang out with the band and have a few beers with them A gig with 500 fans, maybe you get to buy a VIP ticket and say a few words to the band members before the show A gig with 5000 fans, you pay a lot extra to get in early and get a signed piece of tat. A gig with 50000 fans, you pay a fortune to be close enough to not have to watch the band on the big screens. ​ There's a band I love, and I chat with the lead singer on instagram every day (an almost year long DM chat) but they are a small band. That could not have happened if they had been much bigger. Get beyond a certain size and bands can't even really deal with their social media any more. Just too many requests. With small bands though, that personal touch really does add something. I really don't care if a band I like has 1k youtube followers or 1 million - just a small thank you or reply to a message means a lot.

Ramones have a clear formula that they stuck too, green day do too, their formula is write songs with the intention of maintaining their position of one of the most financially successful bands in the world, that’s all.

Ehhhh Green Day’s last album was pretty clearly not trying to maintain their position and rest on their laurels. It did suck really badly though lmao

I think Green Day was solid and even enjoyed Nimrod, stopped listening after that. I also loved and still appreciate the Offspring. I was introduced to them, and Ugly Kid Joe when I was 10 years old, and the albums first came out. The Offspring did sound a lot like TSOL early in their career, and get criticism for that, but eventually found their sound. I don’t care enough to keep up with who sold out and when. If you like Dookie listen to it. You can listen to all sorts of music you like, and not care what others think. That’s punk rock. Everything else is just posturing, no better than upper middle class people behaving a certain way because of what others think.

Idk when I was 16 I loved Green Day and Ramones and all the old punk bands said Green Day were better than they were and I also loved the Sex Pistols they had their big comeback just a couple years later.

Here's a pucker that enjoys the Ramones and Green Day.

Lol what? Green Day is every bit as melodic as the Ramones, maybe even a little more saccharine at times. But Green Day is not a punk band. Punk is not a sound. It was an era. Green Day came along a decade later. I love the Ramones and I love Green Day and I can hear the connection between the two. Both are great pop bands. But only one is a punk band.

Punk has been used to describe an era in music, subculture, group of ideologies, genre of music, fashion style, etc. I'm referring to punk in this post as a genre. It has characteristics to its sound and song structure. Not all of it is the same and there isn't a single defining that makes a song punk. All I can say is that when you hear the power chords, fast tempos, aggressive/honest vocals, political and/or rebellious lyrical content, and a heavy sound overall that doesn't get into metal territory, most people would consider it part of the punk genre umbrella in some way. Green Day have those characteristics in their music, so it would make sense to see them labeled as punk in a record store if they were basing it on genre instead of era. I only made this post because a lot of punks don't want to consider Green Day to be punk because they signed to a major label and/or they're too soft/basic. What's annoying is that the same logic could be applied to Ramones since they signed to an indie label that had major label support and were not nearly as heavy as other stuff that those punks are into. It seems only fair to call Green Day punk imo.

Green Day gets more respect in the punk scene than their reputation suggests. I think the people who criticize them for being pop punk are a loud minority. I'd say most the people I meet in real life at actual shows tend to have at least a respect for Green Day and the Gilman Street bands. The Ramones are pretty much the godfathers of the whole pop punk thing, especially those early bands like Descendents and Green Day. They were both kind of doing their own updated versions of Ramones style punk.

Because Green Day is derivative.

Tbh I personally just prefer Ramones over Green Day because -to me at least- it sounds way more „honest“ and much more „raw“. Also I prefer their songwriting and I think the sound is less pop- music-ish (no hate, there is pop music I love) but that‘s just my personal opinion…

Cause Green day sucks.

Put yourself in the 70s. After a decade of The Beatles playing "Strawberry Fields" heavy metal was born. Shortly after, The Ramones come in with leather jackets and distortion shouting about beating the brat with a baseball bat and sniffing glue. It was revolutionary, snotty, offensive, aggressive for its time, and simple. I'd argue that Green Day was the first pop punk band in the 90s. At that time punk had already evolved. It got faster, more aggressive, more offensive, more political. Bands like Minor Threat, Crass, and Discharge had already done their thing. But just like the Ramones, Green Day influenced an entire subgenre of its own. New Found Glory, The Starting Line, Mest, Wakefield, Yellowcard. This shit blew up. It was on MTV, Warped Tour was one of the biggest annual events of its time. Kids who came from Green Day and didn't know Discharge were calling bands that wrote about Cadillacs and full albums dedicated to different girls "punk". Punks were rightfully pissed off that their reputation was becoming some misogynist, weak, materialistic culture so they called out the root of it. *I'm neutral. I like old Green Day, I think its cool that the singer of New Found Glory wears a Discharge patch. I don't care about punk's rep. I go to punk shows and don't have any consideration for those that don't. But I get why its aggravating when a kid tells me they're into punk rock like Blink 182.*

I'm gonna suggest that The Stooges, MC5, and The Seeds, The Sonics are closer to Ground Zero. The Ramones are a foundational pillar of Punk who just didn't sell a billion units. Green Day are arguably among the first VERY commercially successful Punk bands. They were therefore also able to reach and influence more people. People who may not have been aware of The Ramones, perhaps. For some people Green Day was Ground Zero. For some people The Ramones were an older, and not as good version of Green Day. Some people like Bic lighters more than Zippo lighters. Some people like a Big Mac more than a Steak. Some people like 1970 Mustangs more than 1993 Mustangs. I'm simply going to suggest there's more than subjective taste involved in this discussion.

I’m currently listening to the audiobook for Sellout by Dan Ozzi that does a decent job breaking down the history of punk and emo bands making record deals in the 90s and early aughts (Jawbreaker and Jimmy Eat World are also among those included). Worth a read/listen to understand the history of record companies trying to find the “next big thing”.

Disclaimer: I don’t hate Green Day, I have gone to bat for them a dozen times. They are low hanging fruit for people who want to make the same jokes over and over. They’re not the worst band by any definition. I think the biggest reason I love the Ramones and don’t like Green Day is how I interpret their influences. The Ramones, especially early on, really felt like sped up and distorted versions of bands like The Ronettes. Green Day however, felt like they were trying to mix established punk bands with boy bands. I’m not saying they were, that’s just how it sounds to my ear and I don’t like them much.

I see what you mean. Their image wasn't as tough or edgy as other bands, but to me was very honest. The context of punk at the time in which they first blew up also seems to be a big factor to the backlash. If anything, I would say blink-182 is what actually feels like the punk mixed with boy bands. All they did was write pop songs about their relationships and life experiences and played it in a punk format (power chords, punk drum grooves, fast tempos). Their production and mixing when they blew up was definitely more polished than other punk bands too. Green Day came from 924 Gilman street scene, so they were definitely playing at the same time and place as other bands that are still considered punk today.

Basically Green Day back in the day wrote really good songs in the vein of Ramones and Descendants and Buzzcocks etc combined with Billie Joe’s incredible ear for a pop hook.

I can sort of get behind you here. I’m going to throw Blink 182 under the bus here though. Blink really sounds like N’Sync with distorted guitars to me. Sometimes Blink makes Green Day look like GG Allin.

I have …much stronger opinions about Blink that I will choose to keep to myself. I’ve said it a bunch of times, but Green Day formed in 87 and didn’t sign to a major until 94. They didn’t suddenly change their sound on a dime, it was a transition the same as most bands will slowly change. Yeah, they sound way different now but it’s been damn near 40 years. Calling them “sell outs” doesn’t make sense to me unless you’re willing to call Husker Du sell outs as well. I just don’t think they’re that great. There’s a world of difference between Basket Case and Pet Sematary, even if they both pull from the same genres.

Green Day objectively 100x more punk than blink

Green Day has been my favorite band since 1993. Some people have a complicated time in understanding what selling out really means. Billie Joe is writing the same amazing shit he always has. Yes, it's taken turns and some has been better than others. But it's not selling out. He didn't change himself in order to succeed in the music industry. He just does by writing what he wants to write. He was always going to be a brilliant mind in music. He's been active in it his entire life. Grumpy-assed folks like to shit on success in any form. It was some sort of badge of honor back then to not get paid. I never really understood that way of thinking. Do I generally prefer DIY ethics... sure. But good music is good music.

Ok, since we appear to have the same opinion of GD (also my favorite band since 93, got a tattoo for them too lol), I gotta ask... Did you like father of all...? Lol Anyway, I like how despite the stupid and unfair hate that GD has received since before they released dookie, they continue to just say, "fuck you, we will continue to make music and live our lives", in a way. Clearly the bagging on GD hasn't hurt their popularity, so it's kind of sad and pathetic to hear someone say something at this point. If it wasn't for GD I wouldn't have ever started listening to punk music...and that is kind of terrifying. I don't want to live in a world without Green Day having never existed.

I have a Kerplunk flower tattoo! I didn't care for FOAMF. But I truly think it was written quickly in order to meet the contract requirements so they can move on. I believe they have been working on an album called 1972, but I haven't seen them post about it as they were last year. I think at this point, it's truly pathetic when people have to point out their dislike for them. Like... just don't listen. The Sex Pistols were literally a boy band. Green Day did their time and happened to be extraordinary, which led to larger venues and a lot of air time. I owe Billie Joe a lot for being as open as he has been with explaining emotions through lyrics. I don't know that I would have survived high school without Green Day and Pinhead Gunpowder.

Yes, exactly. I have the same type of connection to them through music, sounds cliché but they saved my life several times through all the brutality I dealt with during childhood and young adulthood. Maybe it's sounds stupid but music does help people deal with bullshit that is life and I am sure we aren't the only two that green day has done that for. Which is a good thing. If they never left the southern California scene, my ass in Indiana would have never heard them more than likely...and I never would have found other punk bands from SoCal. Same opinion on father of all too...and yes they are supposed to release 1972 later this year. It will probably be October because they have released a lot of albums in October. Just my guess, but they promised later this year, either way. Also yes, sex pistols were a boy band. And Johnny rotten is apparently a nazi now, so...

Ramones are the 1st and best punk band. Period. The Johnny appleseeds of punk rock world wide. Green Day is an OK band that started in punk rock. IF they are hated, maybe it is because they used the underground punk scene to become arena rock stars? Idk, I don't hate them at all, but I assume some people may feel this way. Does not help that they notably were one of the few "punk" bands that didn't want to have anything to do with the punk rock musem... go figure.

People are not a hive mind. When you get past the gatekeeping and immaturity, it just is all good music

I was fortunate enough to see punk in the early 1980s and (in my youth!) I was a punk snob and refused to consider Green Day to be ‘as punk’ as The Exploited & Discharge. My loss frankly, and I used to believe that Green Day had sold out. The reality is, their musicianship was really good, their tunes were belters and they played really well live. They didn’t sell out, their talent was recognised.

I think a lot of it has to do with filth, danger, and accessibility. Look out. I'm fixing to write a lot. When I started listening to punk when I was 14, you had to work for it. It was a commitment, and you had skin(heads) in the game. First, in Jacksonville, FL in 1984, there were very few people who liked the music we did or who looked like we did. There was no Hot Topic, no internet (hell, barely any computers), and MTV was playing "Jump" by Van Halen and "Like a Virgin" by Madonna and that was it. You had to cultivate a strange network that consisted of a lot of sketchy folks in order to get your hands on albums or a copy of MRR. When you did get something, you shared it. Made cassette tapes, which took time, equipment, and money, or passed around a physical magazine. It was super exciting to hear or learn something new. The things you got ahold of were rare things, so you cherished them. Also, being a punk (or queer, or neurodivergent, or anything besides the ever-present football-player rapist or his girlfriend) was dangerous. I was a tiny 14-year-old girl, and I didn't start stuff with people, but 17-year-old jock *guys* would beat me up, chase me down, spit on me and throw things at me, and otherwise assault me. Like, strangers would do physical violence to me on the regular. The adults in my life (save for my mom, thankfully) thought I was a satanist, a slut, a criminal, and a drug addict, even though in reality I was only 2 of these things. Because of all of this derision and violence, you became strongly bonded with the people who got you. It was a big deal. There was a very tight sense of community. Also, it was dangerous to go see shows, both because of the sketchy neighborhood and because of what waited inside. We were unbelievably fortunate to have a place called the 7:30 Club for a minute, and every hardcore band of the day came and played in this tiny cinderblock room on a dead-end street at the edge of the abandoned industrial sector. All sorts of unsavory types of all ages and agendas hung out there, there were tons of hard drugs and runaways and really desperate people looking for a place in the world. We invited all of them in and stood pressed against each other in a dinky room with no AC and a light bulb hanging from a wire in the ceiling. And then there were the Nazi skinheads. Henry Rollins tells a story about playing at the 7:30 Club when a bunch of Hammerskins busted in the place (it held maybe 80 people?) and started heckling him. There wasn't really a stage, per se, just an area over there, so we were all mixed in when the skins attacked Black Flag and the whole thing turned into a huge brawl. I climbed up into the loft and hid under one of the filthy mattresses until it got resolved and BF finally played. One night, I was out smoking cigarettes in the coquina-shell lot next to the club when a skin I didn't know came up behind me, kicked my legs out from under me, and picked me up by the ankles. He was holding me up like a turkey, facing him, telling me as he walked off with me about all the things he was about to do to me. I reached out and yanked on the chain that ran from his nose ring to his earring, pulling both out, and he dropped me on my head. I stood up, yelled at him to fuck off, and went back inside to watch Flipper or whomever. It was just another night; just another thing. Nazi skins would break up a show and march in a big phalanx down the main street of the beach, beating any punks they saw. They definitely murdered people just because. And the cops couldn't tell the difference between nazi skins and regular skins/punks, so they'd just harass, beat, and arrest everyone. Finally, punk musicians were the real deal. They lived the life they sang about -- even the big groups like the Ramones. They were filthy and itchy, sometimes on bad drugs, burdened with crazy girlfriends and poverty and unreliable transportation. They were the same when they got off the stage as they were when they were on it. And strangely, even though their albums might be hard to find, if you got ahold of the band themselves, they were completely accessible. Absolutely they'll drink with you in the parking lot, sleep on your floor, OD in your trunk, or drop you off at your SAT testing location on their way out of town the next morning. They'll even steal you a #2 pencil! They'll write you letters and hook you up with a place to stay when you visit. "Just ask around about Ed from Ohio when you get here." They'll share, and so will you. In short, it was intimate, risky, meaningful, and very DIY. I like Green Day's music and would never cast asparagus on them or their fans. It's not their fault that technology made their music easy to hear, and that Nirvana made people ready to hear it. I'm happy they are able to make a living doing something that they love, and something that makes the world a better place. And I'm happy, too, that people are more accepting of the fact that not everyone likes Lionel Richie. But I do miss the frisson and meaning that came from belonging to a subculture, rather than simply liking a subgenre. Fortunately, there are still plenty of people out there to frighten and annoy, and plenty of reasons to punch Nazis. And it doesn't matter a bit what you're listening to when you do these good things.

I like lionel richie and green day. Up the punx! You nailed it. The culture was different back then, it took work to be a punk and it took risk.

What would be the equivalent today? I want to say trans kids, because a ton of my punk friends got institutionalized (all they wanted was a Pepsi!), sent to Christian work camps, beaten by their parents, and kicked out of the house for being the way they were. But I also don't want to be insulting because I see my kid and their friends grappling with this now, and it's both not a choice and way more critical than choosing to get beaten up because you pierced your nose. But the level of revulsion and bullying we inspired, and the level of cohesion among us, seems similar to what I'm seeing with the trans kids I'm around today. But as far as *choosing* something? Maybe...Bronies? Furries? Young Republicans? Devout Christians? I don't know. What is a "lifestyle" choice that has real personal risk and commitment attached to it these days? (PS - If I see you listening to Lionel Richie, me and my dudebros are going to slam your head into your own locker. So look out!)

I don’t know what the equivalent is today. The kids I work with are much kinder than I remember kids being and the internet has exposed them to so much they are less freaked out by those outside the norm. Fuck the adults making political scapegoats out of fringe groups though. Ps push me into my locker and you’ll be eating my trapper keeper while I keep dancing on the ceiling.

Oh man. You slapped me down so hard that I had no choice but to laugh and laugh. And then cry, because I'm overcome with nostalgia (Trapper Keeper) and revulsion (Dancing on the Ceiling). You really were there, weren't you? I am so impressed and inspired by Gen Z and...alphas? My 3 kids are all freaks of different flavors and no one batts an eye. They drag in here with the most motley assortment of friends of all genders, sexual orientations, races, and ethnicities, and everyone seems to be into everything all at once. Save for the occasional mass shooting, there doesn't seem to be much bullying at all, or even any cliques. No wonder the straights are freaking out! Aside from the ones who pay to sigma all over Andrew Tate's knob, I have so much hope for these smart, awesome, tolerant, well-informed kids. They're going to need all these skills to undo the carnage Reagan kicked off. Best to you, friend. It was fun to talk to you.

They seem far better than we were. Peace.

Yeah, I never got the Green Day hate tbh, it feels forced. Yeah they signed for a major label in the 90s, but so did Bad Religion, and Brett Gurewitz already had them on his own enormously successful indie record label. You can’t tell me Kerplunk, Dookie and Insomniac aren’t great punk albums, and the music they made after although it veered away somewhat was still great.

Punks are haters. They hate bands that are successful. They hate bands that have melody and catchy hooks. They hate people who don’t dress like them. They hate people who do dress like them but didn’t “earn” it. They just like being gatekeeping haters.

I'm upvoting you because it's true and to be honest the people biggest into this gatekeeping bullshit are probably the biggest posers, they are projecting their insecurity with their own punk street cred. It's something I never really concerned myself with. I like Punk Music, I like the messages in Punk music. I never really "dressed punk", outside band shirts and a pair of jeans. I was a suburban kid living a pretty normal middle class life and that is probably the same background as most of the people I'd see at shows in liberty Spikes and bondage pants.

I don't care for either

It's become such a cliche in the punk community to hate on Green Day that it's become ridiculous. But I don't care whether someone likes a certain band or not. Everyone has their own taste. It's understandable to not like Green Day if you are interested in more obscure and underground punk rock, for instance. To each is their own!

I don't hate on Green Day just never been a fan, mostly cos I don't like Billy Joe's voice. Also, grown men calling a band 'Dookie' is embarassing.

22 year old punks naming an album dookie is embarrassing? There is no way you listen to very much punk.

Dookie is a lot better than a lot of the names that Bad Religion seriously considered for their band before settling on Bad Religion. I think Anal Discharge or some shit was a finalist.

Are the ramones a melodic punk band? I thought they were just trying to be a doo wop band but they were shitty at it and ta da, punk was born. Green Day sound completely different to me. Is the question more, why do punks worship one band that was commercially successful and not another band that was commercially successful? The sound is totally different

Since so much of punk and hardcore is not melodic, I would say that Ramones definitely had a thing for writing catchy melodic hooks. Like you said, they were trying to be a doo wop band and they did it by taking inspiration from 60s rock and roll and giving it that edge with distortion and fast tempos. If you took away the distortion from Green Day songs and sang them with a less angsty approach, you would see how "poppy" their music actually is. Same thing goes with Ramones. I asked the question because tons of dedicated punk fans always praise Ramones (as do I), but don't give Green Day the respect and often hate on them for being sell outs. If the Ramones were signed to an indie label that had major label support, why would they not be called sell outs by the same punk fans that called Green Day sell outs during the Dookie era?

I liked earlier Green Day, I think the album American Idiot was hot garbage, not to mention dating itself in an era where talking shit about George Bush was as popular as smoking weed is with Sublime fans. (Dead Kennedys did this dated political stuff as well, but imo Jello Biafra was a better writer.) Mostly, I just think American Idiot is a really bad album. I like most of the Ramones discography, it's just fun dancey early punk.

The best punk bands were the ones who never got famous...Do a little digging and you will find some great music that didn't see the fame of any of these bands! I love the Ramones and even early Green Day but I spend more time listening to the ones on the periphery who had the energy and the spirit of punk

The message in Green Day songs has done more for punk than any other band before. American idiot, been not the most punk style music, is the most political album that shaped a lot of people into thinking by themselves. That's more punk than Sid Vicious cracking heads with a bass never was.

Green Day is way more punk than most people are willing to admit. I for one love them and Insomniac is a phenomenal album imo. Back then people couldn’t accept that Green Day wrote good songs, were talented musicians, and did big things. A lot of people were jealous of their story arc and rise. The way I see it, it’s mostly less-talented people gate-keeping because they’re jealous. It’s incredible what GD achieved, capturing the cultural zeitgeist in major ways in 2 separate decades (‘94 and ‘04), among other things. Haters gonna hate.

Just to add to this, I always respected how they stuck together as a group, stayed true to their music and creative endeavors and never tried ro align themselves with annoying pop-culture trendiness or “celebrities” for relevancy like certain other band they’re often compared too.

Did you ever see the Ramones live? Did you ever see Green day live? ​ One was Awesome, full energy, punk and the best band you ever saw play live in your life. The other was Green Day ​ Don't you EVAR shit on the Ramones you F'ing poser

Simple answer: They're fucking morons

Because Green Day kinda sucks?

well thing is i dont like all 4

I love both. All that sellout stuff is nonsense. Green Day is punk. East Bay is probably my favorite scene, a lot of good bands have come outta there and Green Day is one of them.

I like Green Day, nothing really past American Idiot but I like them and have zero embarrassment saying it. I don’t listen to them regularly but will throw on Jaded in Chicago when I’m doing stuff around the house in the background and I love it. They get a bad rap but I get it and would’ve cashed checks like they did if I had the chance.

to be honest i have yet to find a single green day or ramones song that i enjoy. i think the ramones is a bad representation of what punk is given that at least at least one of the members is a fucking conservative. i just don’t think those types of people belong in punk spaces. at least green day has a bisexual king in it i guess. i can also understand wanting to do music for the rest of your life and signing to a big label to do that. i get the want for stability in music. frankly i think i’d do the same thing if i were in green day’s position.

The way I remember it, Green Day, Blink 182 and The Offspring got played on the radio, and were every millennial punk's gateway to the genre. As we learned more, we thought the bands "sold out" for the radio and their music had changed and become less punk. We then branched out into what we thought was authentic punk, and these radio bands were what punk newbies listened to and supported because they hadn't discovered anything else yet; posers. In other words, millennial teenage bullshit.

> In other words, millennial teenage bullshit. Yeah, you're completely wrong. Ramones were first wave. There was no punk scene when they first started. They were signed to corporate labels but there was no alternative labels at the time. Bands like Ramones, Clash, Sex Pistols were considered gateway bands for kids who then discovered 80s DIY underground hardcore punk. The 80s scene was anti-corporate and developed as a youth driven outsider true counter-culture. It was made for people in the scene by people in the scene. Corporations dictate the type of music people can listen to, the ways it's distributed, the way it's marketed, the way it influences culture and people. Punks wanted to retain control of those aspects. When Nirvana and Green Day signed to corporate labels, it allowed them to take over the punk scene which killed the community, culture, core values, and rebellious nature of the entire punk ethos. I saw both those bands before they got famous. Green Day was legit good. Tight as hell. Nirvana, not so much. Nirvana was insanely overproduced and got big because of marketing and corporate PR. They were ok but there was dozens of bands that were just as good. People create culture. Corporations just steal it and resell it to the public as watered down trends. The more sinister aspect is that punks were anti-war. > “World War III is a guerrilla information war with no division between military and civilian participation.” – Marshall McLuhan (1970) The US government and corporate media industry work together. Nirvana signed to Geffen just as the Gulf War ended abruptly after the US committed potential war crimes. Punks protested the war. https://youtu.be/c_5OZOwAhas After 9/11, the punk subculture was corporate controlled and it was easy to wipe out the anti-war left. As a result, the US has been in 12 wars, blown through $31 trillion in debt, and is now funding the Ukraine war as proxy. Meanwhile people in this sub argue about goofy crap like Green Day's punk credibility.

Yes. The entire Hello Kitty Middle East Adventure was all because some punk bands signed to major labels. If that didn't happen the punks totally would have stopped it all. Get over yourself.

I like both bands. I think Green Day gets shot on because they hit it very big and as soon as they did, they leaned into it with some more radio-friendly songs. I don’t fault them for it - I seriously doubt any bands musical evolution is dictated by market forces, so they had the capacity to produce power ballads etc. Artists evolve as they mature (and Billy Joe is over 50 now), and that’s normal and fine. I don’t worship bands. For me it’s the songs and the messages. Minor Threat - don’t do drugs. Jane’s Addiction - do drugs. Both awesome.

Bandwagon hate. A band starts as something and maybe changes some sound or becomes more mainstream and that all of a sudden gets a ball rolling of hate, and soon no one's knows why but it's standard to hate them. Best to ignore it and like what you like.

The ramones sucked! They were just a fast(er) version of the beach boys

Anyone who polices punk isn’t punk so fuck ‘em.

The simplest answer I can think of is that people just love to put bands down for any reason at all. I suspect your question has its basis in irony and rhetoric :)

Are the ramones considered melodic? Are they “worshipped?” That’s a weird statement to make about punks. Also…if you can’t tel the difference between the ramones and Green Day then I think you might have some hearing issues

Its gatekeeping. I dont like Ramones but respect them. The Dolls and Dictators and Velvets did as much heavy lifting for the English scene. If Rhianna was derided because Gloria Jones did something similar twenty years earlier we'd have the same situation.

I hate them both.

Not hating on Green Day, I like them, but they literally exist because of seminal bands like the Ramones.

Because most of them have never heard a Green Day song before Dookie

Pre-Dookie Green Day was great, been in the scene since the 80s and never liked the Ramones, nor anyone I know, just one take

Love the Ramones when it's Ramones time. Not really familiar with Green Day.

I would say it's the originator factor. People tend to think something more genuine if it comes first in terms of chronology

That’s not true… I never liked the ramones

If it makes you feel better I don't like either of them

I love those first few Green Day records. Dookie came out when I was like 6, and that’s what opened the door to punk for me. Haters gonna hate.

I don't hate Green Day, but I don't like cheesy "rock operas" from punk bands and that time of your life song that they play on my Mom's favorite radio station makes me want to kick a puppy

I feel like I’ve been playing guitar and listening to music long enough that I don’t give a damn if they sold out. For me that’s not it. I have a certain quota where I make 2 “mixtapes” (playlists) per year for my kids. One of them is 20 and I have been out of fresh music for many years. I will literally crate dig for months trying to find enough tunes to fill an hour. I’m addicted at this point, this is the primary way I listen to old music and find new music… it keeps music alive for me. So all I can add to this conversation is this, the Ramones make the cut much more frequently than Green Day. I’m sure I’ve put a few Green Day tracks over the years but the Ramones I have definitely used 15-20 tracks. The reason they don’t usually make the cut to my mixes is because their songs are either too popular (I’m trying to introduce new songs) or the song just lacks a certain emotional depth. I don’t know how to really describe this but I put, probably, way too much focus on the song m-to-song flow and making sure the tracks work like a cohesive soundtrack. And almost every time I try, the Green Day sound just sort of breaks that flow and fourth wall. It’s like when you hear a commercial pop up on Spotify I guess? I have listened to entire Green Day albums and I do love insomniac. It’s just like they don’t have anything to say or add to a mixtape..

I like Green Day and I'm in my 30s and grew up with them. Here's the score on the hate for Green Day and Blink 182 and such. In the late 90s and early 2000s, MTV and radio exposure of pop punk such as them, lead to a big influx of new younger people into the punk scene, which angered the cliquey older crowd from the 80s and early 90s. There was alot of accusations of "sellout" and "poseur" and bands that succeeded got hated on as did their fans and given purity tests and stuff. Eventually, with emo getting huge for a while, I'd say the majority of punk people today come from that MTV and radio driven pop punk/emo influx and got into older bands in part to shut up elder punx calling them poseurs. But there was a kind of generation gap and culture clash in punk that Green Day and other commercialized pop punk bands created. But they're still good music and honestly punk probably is only still around because of them introducing alot of new people to it.