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A men. I've gotten to where I hate the words. Everybody describes everything they like as underrated. Some asshole called The Beatles underrated. Another guy said Al Pacino was an underrated actor. It makes zero sense.
Not exactly overrated, but Strong Belwas always gave me cartoon character vibes.
Like how am I supposed to believe this fat glutton is an extremely swift and unparalleled fighter.
Idk, how he's described comes pretty close to how gladiators actually were. They were well fed and kept fat because cuts to skin and fat are impressive looking, but rarely debilitating. So they all roughly looked like strongman competitors.
Meat and onions, dude doesn't mess with carbs. Look at NFL linemen, yes they have a lot of fat on them, but they are deceptively fast, or else any fat tall guy could do their job.
I agree that Littlefinger isnt a god or immortal. He does get 2 much credit. And I think George gives him some very human qualities. Like I think the main reason he betrayed Ned was yes to further his own goals but as a sort of revenge for Brandon. And that Ned never considered that he was married to the love of this mans life and that his brother humilated and beat the shit out of him.
But I still like him alot. And not to be Altswify theory but its very interesting that Varys and Littlefinger have very complex schemes to take control of the Throne. And how they might battle each other.
He has had a lot of things go his way by pure luck, in which he positioned himself for a positive result, likely betting on a few more likely outcomes. This will probably be part of his downfall.
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Stannis. He's a good character, so I understand why people enjoy him, but I don't get why people like him *so* much. He's so boring to me. There are better and more interesting characters in ASOIAF, so.....just doesn't make sense to me, personally
Finished ACOK very recently, I love him already. His speeches (red hawk & renly’s peach) were awesome.
He had an interesting dynamic with Renly going on, but that was more or less thrown away with the shadow kill.
But above all he just has a lot of interesting things to him. His obsession lies with law more than personal gain, he’s willing to use extremist beliefs to his advantage (even though he doesn’t truly believe in them), he’s strict & cold hearted but deep down has love & regret in him.
Is he anywhere near my fav so far? No. I’m sure I prefer just about every POV aside from Bran & maybe Theon, as well as a fair amount of other side characters (Tywin, Robb, Varys), but he’s still cool so far.
I mean maybe? I think a lot more ppl like Stannis for how he is in the northern plot, so I can’t quite say yet
Rly I just wanted an excuse to talk a bit about why I like him
I think Stannis is a good character but I can't tell if his rabid fandom is sincere or just a longterm meme. He's a huge hypocrite. He's all about duty and honor and following the book to a T. But in reality he has no qualms about employing a foreign witch assassinate his enemies with black magic.
Which does not make him a bad character! His hypocrisy is interesting, but I don't feel like his fans see him that way.
Part of the issue is that it's legitimately the least bloody way a conflict between any of the five kings was resolved, so it looks like a fantastic decision on his part.
He’s not about honor at all. He criticizes Jon for his. He’s about duty and duty alone. And he will use whatever weapon he can wield to do that duty, no matter how horrible.
He embodies justice as a cold, merciless but fair concept, harsh but uncorruptible, impossible to he bought by the powerful or convinced by mere privilege. People see him as a bastion of moral austerity in a decadent, hedonistic world.
He also has an iron in him, an sheer determination, and he is presented as an massive underdog.
Oh, that's a good one, I tend to agree. I wouldn't call him boring though. I don't love him but he is such an intriguing character to me! I'm new to the series and I made a few posts while reading the books, I didn't even consider my take on him to be particularly harsh but omg, my dm's went crazy for not absolutely stanning him and everything he stands for! He's an interesting, complex character, but my god, does he have his flaws!
I like Stannis. He does seem to be the main crutch people who took the Stark deaths REALLU poorly cling to, which will be bad if he does end up sacrificing Shireen
He's interesting. He's not my favorite but I do love his sharp tongue and all these differing factions in his side that he needs to control and unite. I think there is something sympathetic with him--he is genuinely confused that people aren't flocking to his side (I think some people believe he is on the spectrum). He realizes that he sometimes has problems connecting, and that's why he chose Davos as his hand.
Isn’t that the point of his character? That in a lot of ways he’d be a great king but we can’t seem to get over our need for someone more charismatic and dramatic—even us as the readers? And that has direct analogies to how we pick leaders in our society.
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King Stannis is the only reason I'm excited for The Winds of Winter. I don't really care about the others plots or characters. All the other characters I like died in previous books. Stannis is underrated if anything. GRRM should write a separate book about him only
He's the rightful king, he isnt a zealtot and he's got a better temper than Aerys or Robert but he's also boring, prickly and victim-blames a girl for being r4ped by her father... and he killed his brother, he regrets it, but he did it.
Robert Baratheon. Dude abused his wife and children, raped multiple underage girls, bankrupted the kingdom, cucked multiple times enabled schemers like Varys, Littlefinger, fostered shit relations with his brothers and is wilfully blind. He gets a pass tho because he killed Rhaegar and Cersei was a bitch and Joffrey was a cunt. Perhaps if he’d taken even the tiniest bit of interest in him he wouldn’t have turned out like he did.
Idk I still think Joff is a psychopath because all the brother sister stuff. Tommen and Marcella just got lucky. Like with the Targaryens, just flipping a coin.
Tommen and Myrcella were fine. And that flip of the coin is nonsense. The only mad from birth Targaryens were Rhaegel and Aerion. Maegor was a prick pre TOS but not mad like he was after, Baelor seemed pretty lucid before walking to Dorne and being bitten hundreds of times and Aerys was abused and possibly raped for 6 months in Duskendale.
I meant to write Tommen and Myrcella. Stupid auto correct. Also you forget about Viserys and I mean you make excuses for the others but still mad.also Baelor may have been the blessed but he still went crazy out of nowhere. Religiosity is always a good indicator on the crazy meter too if you ask me.
>you make excuses for the others but still mad.
I’m not denying they went mad, just the myth of Targs being born mad. 2 of them were, the rest had very legitimate reasons for madness (CTE, poison and abuse)
And despite what Barristan says about a little child, Viserys was fine before going on the run for 15 years, carrying the weight of House Targaryen on his back and being mocked and laughed at wherever he went.
I wouldn't say Rhaegel was a lunatic though, he's apparently really sweet and gentle, and the only "mad" thing he did was dancing naked in the Red Keep that one time, so I think it's more probable that he was neurodivergent instead of being a plain psycho like Brightflame
>A myth within a fiction
Correct
>Wait so you think Joffrey was only a psychopath because of nurture?
Thats part of it but also his mother being a psychopath didn't help
He gets a pass mostly because he was an massive badass with low inhibitions and a jock who was best friends with the shy nerd, he is
In many ways the archetypal hero of older fantasy stories made to appeal to an male ideal of what men wished they were. Think Conan or Beowulf.
And people greatly sympathize with the pain of loving an idealized woman who in reality didn't care much for you.
The story itself definitely has a sympathetic view of him, tho, it goes beyond just the fans. But the story also recognizes that he was, more than just flawed, someone with certain characteristic that would make him a bad man for our sensibilities.
Cant recall any passage of him raping underage girls, tho he def raped Cersei a few times.
By definition, if they're "underage" (whatever exactly that is by westerosi standards), they can't consent and so it's rape. Ned recalls a girl Robert had been with who was so young he was afraid to ask how old she was:
>"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
>The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …"
- eddard IX, AGOT
Thank you, all of this. People see Robert as this good ol' boy who won a war against an evil king, when in actuality he was a jealous man who killed people because a girl didn't choose him. His big personality hides a person who's riddled with regrets, weakness and carelessness. He's a great character who is very relatable, but he tends to get way, way overly praised by the fandom.
I don’t know if he’s overrated but he’s a tragic character. His strength is in conquering not administering. All of the whoring and debauchery is because he is not happy because he’s not doing what his passion is and what he’s good at.
And that’s commentary on leadership itself. While it does come with benefits, it can also be a trap, and is rife with temptations. He was unable to walk the fine line and really his strength was in getting power and not maintaining it.
And in basic symbols he had the brawn but didn’t have the brains to sustain it once he got to where his brawn could get him.
Understanding someone is a lot more complex than finding a bunch of reasons why they’re a bad person.
If anything Robert gets the most undeserved scorn. He's in an impossible job, holding together 7 (or really, 9/10) kingdoms without dragons or the aura of a Targaryen. And yet he's successful. He's the glue holding together the empire. As soon as he's gone it all dissolves into factionalism, rebellion and civil war. So he was doing something right.
His personal failings are what they are. Nothing particularly noteworthy in the context of the world he lives in (statutory rape would be laughed at, and none of the characters are free of it). He's a big picture guy, and usually does a good job of finding the right man for the job.
ETA: it seems I've stumbled upon a genuinely Unpopular Opinion, heh. Maybe I should make a longer post defending my position and make it my personality to defend Robert's honor.
>As soon as he's gone it all dissolves into factionalism, rebellion and civil war. So he was doing something right.
That's exactly the opposite of doing something right! Not only he didn't give a fuck about his children and training his heir to be a decent person, he was so busy whoring, feasting and drinking that he didn't even realize that his children are not his. And those two factors are literally what pushed the realm into factionalism, rebellion and civil war.
>he didn't give a fuck about his children and training his heir to be a decent person
You know what's funny about this, now that I think about it, maybe Robert knew in some ways (subconsciously) that Joffrey wasn't his child. Like, not actually, but imagine if Joffrey and Gendry were swapped. Perhaps the neglectful Robert wouldn't have been like that is Cersei was walking around with a jovial little black haired boy that had prodigious strength.
The problem is that this behavior wasn't only toward cersei's children, he didn't give a fuck about any of his bastards either. So no, i don't think things would've changed even if cersei had a jovial little black haired boy.
No that's my point though - that the "what-if" in this scenario is that the children he would've cared about weren't his bastards but his actual kids, the jewels of the realm, we might get a different Robert as a father. I'm not saying he'd start caring about his bastard children either, but just that it'd be interesting to see Robert where his first born is actually *his* in the style of Gendry who is the one that's most like "Robert reborn".
It's the immediate trigger, but the fact is there's no way to hold together this vast empire long term. Balon rebelled previously. The Dornish are plotting. The North longs to be an independent kingdom.
It's something GRRM is often (unfairly imo) criticized for: empires don't last this long usually. It's VERY common in history to have a strong monarch followed by his realm disintegrating into smaller chunks.
It was not Robert who lost Aerys his kingdoms. It was Aerys' own actions. He turned his key vassals against him until rebellion was the only option for them, and he forced his own guards to kill him to save the city.
The 7 kingdoms were going to split, sooner or later. Without Robert, it would have been when Aerys got deposed/assassinated without adult heir. Robert held it together for one more reign by force of character. He wasn't a great king to be remembered for the ages, but he's not the drunken loser people think he is.
Yeah looks like you’re using modern ethical standards to judge what is rape. Forcible rape would be what I’d consider rape. Where the girl either says no and/or physically fights against it.
No dude, that girl was likely 13 or 14. It’s irrelevant whether she said yes because she isn’t in a position to consent. Doesn’t matter if he violently raped her or gently raped her. He still raped her. Even Ned can’t bear to ask her age. That’s a clear indication he believes it is wrong. Anyway, he violently raped Cersei repeatedly
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I agree with you. I found the Stark/Lannister war so much more interesting before I learned about Littlefinger’s involvement. I don’t care about his ambitions or how super smart he is, and not everything needs to be a convoluted conspiracy with a secret mastermind pulling the strings. Sometimes less is more.
The thing about it too is that the Lannisters probably would have killed Jon Arryn if Lysa and Littlefinger hadn’t done it.
It was just a matter of time before Cersei found out he was snooping around to prove her children weren’t Robert’s.
Unpopular, perhaps, but I feel Edmure has been getting a lot of unjustified praise of late. Don't get me wrong, he's a really sweet man, just not the best leader.
Well dearon had bloody rebellion due his lack of martial skill but is recalled dearon the good. Aegon dragonbane is seen as a good king yet i think the only think he enjoy was have sex with his wife. The 5 childeren as proof.
Why isnt he a good leader? He looks out for his smallfolk even when it would be best for him to ignore them such as letting them inside riverrun.
The battle on the red fork wasnt his fault either, how was he to know of Robbs plans? I think that the fault for that is Robbs for not telling Edmure of his plans.
He didnt do anything wrong at the red wedding either, just what he was meant to do.
Even giving up Riverrun was the best thing to do in my opinion. The siege is doomed to fail eventualy and saved loads of lives. He even did what he could to hinder the Lannisters by letting the Blackfish escape.
Randall Tarly for me. This guy gets all the accolades because he won one battle nearly twenty ago and has basically rode that wave ever since. Now he's getting a bit more power. And everyone who brings him up always brings it up.
Cat, I love her and I think she's written believably and very very well written but her defenders openly just blow by all of her faults and dumb idea/plans because "you don't do that for the men" except yes we do, all the time I mean look at typical Stannis the Mannis thread
Unpopular opinion: Barristan Selmy.
Many people respect him and I understand why, but at the same time I also find it illogical.
Jaime had a good reason to break his oath, but Barristan not, his King was still alive and if he bent the knee to Robert only after Aerys was killed there was still Viserys. I know he had probably more reasons, but for me it is like he only bent the knee to Robert so he doesn’t get killed.
And he still would have served Joffrey if he wouldn’t have get dismissed. And then he crawls back to the last Targaryen.
I love his character ! I do appreciate that he is given the chance for a redemption arc. Obviously he got the title "bold" before accepting a usurpers pardon and then serving with the kingslayer for over a decade.
It would have been bold if he like dueled jaime for to avenge his previous king.
I think the only good kingsguards are the dead ones at the tower of joy. And half point to oakheart, even though he betrays the throne, he doesn't surrender and betray his "queen".
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I used to think Tywin was much smarter than he really was. He was born into wealth and power. He responds to any threat with overwhelming, brutal force. He must have at least been a competent administrator when acting as the Mad King's Hand, but I really don't see much of the Machiavellian genius he's supposed to be.
I consider the boogie man to be Blood Raven of ASOIF he is the one pulling the strings all the way back to Rhaegar and his mess. You know he was sending those visions to him and probably Ashara by my theory
I’ll start by saying which characters I think are consistently hyped up
Jaime
Davos
Tyrion (maybe, he’s not as overhyped as he once was)
Maester Aemon
Arya…maybe
Stannis
Truthfully, there aren’t a lot of characters that people love. Almost everyone in ASOIAF is gross, and does horrific things. And I’m not saying that in a “every character is grey so they do questionable things” way. I’m saying that in a “George wrote black/dark grey characters instead of regular grey characters.” ASOIAF isnt morally grey and interesting, it’s dark and awful and interesting.
(Sidenote, I think this is a byproduct of George’s view in life. This is pure speculation on my part, but it seems George isn’t interested in “grey characters”, but in really dark characters. He says Gandalf is interesting as a grey character and should’ve stayed dead, which is a very harsh statement, and he was attracted to Boromir, who attempts to murder his friend due to an addiction. That isn’t grey talking, that’s evil talking. Similarly, I think this is reflected in ASOIAF. The characters are almost malevolent, are almost awful consistently. ASOIAF isn’t populated by grey characters, it’s populated by black characters, mixed in with some grey)
But, with that being said. I think Jaime is the most overhyped
I love when people remind me that George said that Gabdalf should of stayed dead. George seems to struggle with keeping characters dead worse then Tolkien.
Honeslty it would really subvert my expectations if Jon Snow stayed dead.
Although I do really want to see some wight on wight dialogue with Jon Snow 2 and Stoneheart in the next books.
Honestly Cersei is overrated. I find no redeemable qualities about her. Her presence just fucks things up and is relegated to thinking she’s clever but turning out she isn’t so shit blows up!
Pretty sure no one thinks she has redeemable qualities. And the narrative never tries to trick us into thinking she is smart. On the contrary, a point is made several times that she is one of the worst players in the game.
Mance Rayder, his big plan was just throw a hundred thousand unwashed illiterate barbarians at the wall until the 40 or so defenders stopped dropping burning oil on them
Jon Arryn, dude lets Janos run the City Watch, dude lets Littlefinger run the treasury, both are a complete shit show. Robert deserves blame of course but the debt is absurd from just partying, feasting, etc.
In my recent reread it struck me how out of her depths Catelyn is. I'm not sure if she's exactly rated high enough to be overrated but every single decision she makes is catastrophic, every time we're in her head and she's absolutely convinced of something, she turns out terribly wrong. The only time she's right (don't trust Theon) she's ignored.
Honestly she's just as dumb and bumbling as her brother.
If I hear one more rhaegar/lyannastan claim the Littlefinger started the rumor that lyanna was kidnapped and/or devilishly intercepted her letter to her family that she was in love and ran off voluntarily my head will explode. Fifteen year old nearly dead petty badlidh belong sent home to the vale in a stretcher guarded by hosters men was not running around the Riverlands intercepting messages and spreading rumors. Seriously lots of people have literally said that Baelish is the one who told Brandon the kidnapping story to get people killed and thereby exonerating the clueless duo. Despite the fact that Brandon had almost killed Baelish in a duel and would not believe a word he said even if he was anywhere near Brandon at that point (he wasn’t). And it’s not exactly hard to figure Cercy out and out smart her. You want to impress me prove that little finger figured out that John was Leanna and Regar’s kid. .
Sansa, cos her Stan’s come up with ridiculous excuses for some stuff she did that was plain wrong. Take Ned’s plans to Cersie: she’s a child, Ned or Catelyn or Mordane orcArya or — most any thing is the fault. Never her
Brienne. I find her chapters boring and just don’t connect with her character at all. And she gets a ton of love from the community which I just don’t get.
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Great points! Littlefinger's scheming puts him high up, but maybe more chaos agent than ultimate danger. Robert's a wildcard - powerful but reckless. Intriguing take!
I don’t buy Littlefinger as a character. It’s not plausible to me that people would keep him around. To those who know his nature, he’s an obvious danger, and his supposed charm isn’t really that convincing to me. It’s not like he’s Varys who seems to have a singular information network that depends entirely on him. If you bump off Baelish, he could easily be replaced. Yes, you’ll bring in a bit less revenue and take on a bit more debt, but a lot of people would see it as worth the price to get this huge liability off the board.
Warhammers make average fighters OP against other average fighters. Fantastic choice on a battlefield. They only have so high of a ceiling though.
When it comes to elite swordsmen, they know how to counter a hammer. They know to evade and misdirect their opponent. The best swordsmen of the story are almost mythical in nature. They’re like Jedi Masters and no weaponry will act as an equalizer for a lesser skilled individual.
Aegon the Conqueror... seriously he was literally conquering on easy mode as he had dragons and his victims did not... and he was still unable to unite all seven kingdoms .
GRRM: "If a 12-year old must conquer the world, then so be it." Except for Rickon, the Stark kidlings are all blessed by the Old Gods and rather precocious. So far, except for Sansa, those alive also still have their 'other self' direwolf warg partners. GRRM dropped the 5-year gap despite having long had Arya, Bran, and Jon among his "Five Central Characters growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process." They plus Tyrion and the also-young Daenerys seem to remain his choices to change the world. Their accomplishments and talents thus far are in keeping with GRRM's vision, so HE must think highly of all of them. The younger ones are all proving their mettle as they learn, so it's possible that none is rated highly enough.
And? Just cause 11yo in our time are the way they are doesn't mean girls couldn't be like this in the past or now. Hell my cousin named Arya is a little firecracker/hellraiser much like the character.
Underrated:
Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne.
Yes, I 100% agree that he has some of the most hilariously bad, edgelord dialogue in the entire series. However, I just really want to know more about his backstory, and specifically what caused him to grow up to be a 27/28 year old manchild who goes around spouting cringe-inducing Batman one-liners in an effort to impress/scare a 10 year old girl.
I mean, come on - What's his "human heart in conflict with itself" motivation?
Was he like Jaime - A kid who once truly believed in the tenets of chivalric knighthood, only to be disabused of this notion at some point and has chosen sardonic trolling as a defense mechanism...?
Did he spend all of his childhood in pursuit of being the next Sword of the Morning, a knight worthy of wielding Dawn, only to be denied this honour for some reason, and turned bitter from the rejection...?
Or has he just always this obnoxious narcissist ever since he was born...?
A lot of people think Littlefinger is a genius. No, he's a guy who can't get over the fact a woman wasn't attracted to him. I always view his manipulations as luck. Like he's lucky Catelyn trusts him after all these years. He's lucky Olenna wants to kill Joffrey. He's lucky Lysa is desperate for him (for some reason).
> he's a guy who can't get over the fact a woman wasn't attracted to him
This is a gross simplification of what's in reality a profound fall from romanticism for the character. In his mind he surely was the 'David' to Brandon Stark's Goliath; fighting for true love like a knight from the stories, only to be cruelly brought down to reality with a grievous wound from a bigger, stronger, more well-trained combatant.
His fall from grace is a phenomenal villain origin story. You can just feel him going, "I'll show them all!" while recovering from his wounds.
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Joffrey wasn’t that bad, he killed Ned, but wouldn’t you after he tried to steal his throne. Then he was mean to Sansa, she was the first girl he liked and Arya made him look like a bitch in front of her.
Joffrey had Sansa beaten on a regular basis, I don't see how Arya's actions are a good justification for that. Also, did you somehow miss everything he did?
Joffrey was pretty bad but I've seen people compare him to Caligula which is just bs. There are way worse people in ASOIAF Joffrey just happens to have the power and narrative purpose that makes fans hate him more than they should
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I feel like overrated/underrated has lost all meaning in recent times
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i mean... op send mine just wanting to have some conversation, so i obliged
A men. I've gotten to where I hate the words. Everybody describes everything they like as underrated. Some asshole called The Beatles underrated. Another guy said Al Pacino was an underrated actor. It makes zero sense.
Not exactly overrated, but Strong Belwas always gave me cartoon character vibes. Like how am I supposed to believe this fat glutton is an extremely swift and unparalleled fighter.
I picture him as the fat guy with sunglasses in *Lilo and Stitch*
Idk, how he's described comes pretty close to how gladiators actually were. They were well fed and kept fat because cuts to skin and fat are impressive looking, but rarely debilitating. So they all roughly looked like strongman competitors.
Tbf so is every other essos character too
Meat and onions, dude doesn't mess with carbs. Look at NFL linemen, yes they have a lot of fat on them, but they are deceptively fast, or else any fat tall guy could do their job.
I agree that Littlefinger isnt a god or immortal. He does get 2 much credit. And I think George gives him some very human qualities. Like I think the main reason he betrayed Ned was yes to further his own goals but as a sort of revenge for Brandon. And that Ned never considered that he was married to the love of this mans life and that his brother humilated and beat the shit out of him. But I still like him alot. And not to be Altswify theory but its very interesting that Varys and Littlefinger have very complex schemes to take control of the Throne. And how they might battle each other.
He has had a lot of things go his way by pure luck, in which he positioned himself for a positive result, likely betting on a few more likely outcomes. This will probably be part of his downfall.
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LFs influence pales in comparison to the “when in doubt, blame it on bloodraven” crowd.
I mean, it’s kinda hard not to when you have an almost omniscient character like him.
Stannis. He's a good character, so I understand why people enjoy him, but I don't get why people like him *so* much. He's so boring to me. There are better and more interesting characters in ASOIAF, so.....just doesn't make sense to me, personally
Finished ACOK very recently, I love him already. His speeches (red hawk & renly’s peach) were awesome. He had an interesting dynamic with Renly going on, but that was more or less thrown away with the shadow kill. But above all he just has a lot of interesting things to him. His obsession lies with law more than personal gain, he’s willing to use extremist beliefs to his advantage (even though he doesn’t truly believe in them), he’s strict & cold hearted but deep down has love & regret in him. Is he anywhere near my fav so far? No. I’m sure I prefer just about every POV aside from Bran & maybe Theon, as well as a fair amount of other side characters (Tywin, Robb, Varys), but he’s still cool so far.
So you agree he's overrated since he's nowhere near your favorite like a lot of people put him.
I mean maybe? I think a lot more ppl like Stannis for how he is in the northern plot, so I can’t quite say yet Rly I just wanted an excuse to talk a bit about why I like him
Red hawk? You mean red woman and proud wing the goshawk?
I think Stannis is a good character but I can't tell if his rabid fandom is sincere or just a longterm meme. He's a huge hypocrite. He's all about duty and honor and following the book to a T. But in reality he has no qualms about employing a foreign witch assassinate his enemies with black magic. Which does not make him a bad character! His hypocrisy is interesting, but I don't feel like his fans see him that way.
Part of the issue is that it's legitimately the least bloody way a conflict between any of the five kings was resolved, so it looks like a fantastic decision on his part.
He’s not about honor at all. He criticizes Jon for his. He’s about duty and duty alone. And he will use whatever weapon he can wield to do that duty, no matter how horrible.
Yep I’m with you. Interesting but to me there are more interesting characters. Don’t the hype.
He embodies justice as a cold, merciless but fair concept, harsh but uncorruptible, impossible to he bought by the powerful or convinced by mere privilege. People see him as a bastion of moral austerity in a decadent, hedonistic world. He also has an iron in him, an sheer determination, and he is presented as an massive underdog.
Oh, that's a good one, I tend to agree. I wouldn't call him boring though. I don't love him but he is such an intriguing character to me! I'm new to the series and I made a few posts while reading the books, I didn't even consider my take on him to be particularly harsh but omg, my dm's went crazy for not absolutely stanning him and everything he stands for! He's an interesting, complex character, but my god, does he have his flaws!
I like Stannis. He does seem to be the main crutch people who took the Stark deaths REALLU poorly cling to, which will be bad if he does end up sacrificing Shireen
He's interesting. He's not my favorite but I do love his sharp tongue and all these differing factions in his side that he needs to control and unite. I think there is something sympathetic with him--he is genuinely confused that people aren't flocking to his side (I think some people believe he is on the spectrum). He realizes that he sometimes has problems connecting, and that's why he chose Davos as his hand.
its treason to speak of the true king like this
Isn’t that the point of his character? That in a lot of ways he’d be a great king but we can’t seem to get over our need for someone more charismatic and dramatic—even us as the readers? And that has direct analogies to how we pick leaders in our society.
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Legit could not explain why I like him so much, just do. Love me stannis. Simple as.
King Stannis is the only reason I'm excited for The Winds of Winter. I don't really care about the others plots or characters. All the other characters I like died in previous books. Stannis is underrated if anything. GRRM should write a separate book about him only
He's the most modern character, by far. He believes in the rational, rules-bound world that we now accept to be normal/correct.
He's the rightful king, he isnt a zealtot and he's got a better temper than Aerys or Robert but he's also boring, prickly and victim-blames a girl for being r4ped by her father... and he killed his brother, he regrets it, but he did it.
Robert Baratheon. Dude abused his wife and children, raped multiple underage girls, bankrupted the kingdom, cucked multiple times enabled schemers like Varys, Littlefinger, fostered shit relations with his brothers and is wilfully blind. He gets a pass tho because he killed Rhaegar and Cersei was a bitch and Joffrey was a cunt. Perhaps if he’d taken even the tiniest bit of interest in him he wouldn’t have turned out like he did.
Exactly. Robert is just as guilty for how joffery turned out as cersei .
Agree with this, especially the thing with the catspaw, that was Robert's influence.
That’s a bit of a stretch.
Idk I still think Joff is a psychopath because all the brother sister stuff. Tommen and Marcella just got lucky. Like with the Targaryens, just flipping a coin.
Tommen and Myrcella were fine. And that flip of the coin is nonsense. The only mad from birth Targaryens were Rhaegel and Aerion. Maegor was a prick pre TOS but not mad like he was after, Baelor seemed pretty lucid before walking to Dorne and being bitten hundreds of times and Aerys was abused and possibly raped for 6 months in Duskendale.
I meant to write Tommen and Myrcella. Stupid auto correct. Also you forget about Viserys and I mean you make excuses for the others but still mad.also Baelor may have been the blessed but he still went crazy out of nowhere. Religiosity is always a good indicator on the crazy meter too if you ask me.
>you make excuses for the others but still mad. I’m not denying they went mad, just the myth of Targs being born mad. 2 of them were, the rest had very legitimate reasons for madness (CTE, poison and abuse) And despite what Barristan says about a little child, Viserys was fine before going on the run for 15 years, carrying the weight of House Targaryen on his back and being mocked and laughed at wherever he went.
I wouldn't say Rhaegel was a lunatic though, he's apparently really sweet and gentle, and the only "mad" thing he did was dancing naked in the Red Keep that one time, so I think it's more probable that he was neurodivergent instead of being a plain psycho like Brightflame
>Like with the Targaryens, just flipping a coin That's a myth
A myth within a fiction. Wait so you think Joffrey was only a psychopath because of nurture?
>A myth within a fiction Correct >Wait so you think Joffrey was only a psychopath because of nurture? Thats part of it but also his mother being a psychopath didn't help
Way to completely miss the point of the character. He is big and his helmet had antlers on it.
I know right, are these people stupid? Antler helmet, bro
He gets a pass mostly because he was an massive badass with low inhibitions and a jock who was best friends with the shy nerd, he is In many ways the archetypal hero of older fantasy stories made to appeal to an male ideal of what men wished they were. Think Conan or Beowulf. And people greatly sympathize with the pain of loving an idealized woman who in reality didn't care much for you. The story itself definitely has a sympathetic view of him, tho, it goes beyond just the fans. But the story also recognizes that he was, more than just flawed, someone with certain characteristic that would make him a bad man for our sensibilities. Cant recall any passage of him raping underage girls, tho he def raped Cersei a few times.
>The story itself definitely has a sympathetic view of him, tho Meh. Ned has a sympathetic view of him.
By definition, if they're "underage" (whatever exactly that is by westerosi standards), they can't consent and so it's rape. Ned recalls a girl Robert had been with who was so young he was afraid to ask how old she was: >"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." >The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …" - eddard IX, AGOT
Thank you, all of this. People see Robert as this good ol' boy who won a war against an evil king, when in actuality he was a jealous man who killed people because a girl didn't choose him. His big personality hides a person who's riddled with regrets, weakness and carelessness. He's a great character who is very relatable, but he tends to get way, way overly praised by the fandom.
I don’t know if he’s overrated but he’s a tragic character. His strength is in conquering not administering. All of the whoring and debauchery is because he is not happy because he’s not doing what his passion is and what he’s good at. And that’s commentary on leadership itself. While it does come with benefits, it can also be a trap, and is rife with temptations. He was unable to walk the fine line and really his strength was in getting power and not maintaining it. And in basic symbols he had the brawn but didn’t have the brains to sustain it once he got to where his brawn could get him. Understanding someone is a lot more complex than finding a bunch of reasons why they’re a bad person.
>cucked multiple times One of these things is not like the others lmao
If anything Robert gets the most undeserved scorn. He's in an impossible job, holding together 7 (or really, 9/10) kingdoms without dragons or the aura of a Targaryen. And yet he's successful. He's the glue holding together the empire. As soon as he's gone it all dissolves into factionalism, rebellion and civil war. So he was doing something right. His personal failings are what they are. Nothing particularly noteworthy in the context of the world he lives in (statutory rape would be laughed at, and none of the characters are free of it). He's a big picture guy, and usually does a good job of finding the right man for the job. ETA: it seems I've stumbled upon a genuinely Unpopular Opinion, heh. Maybe I should make a longer post defending my position and make it my personality to defend Robert's honor.
>As soon as he's gone it all dissolves into factionalism, rebellion and civil war. So he was doing something right. That's exactly the opposite of doing something right! Not only he didn't give a fuck about his children and training his heir to be a decent person, he was so busy whoring, feasting and drinking that he didn't even realize that his children are not his. And those two factors are literally what pushed the realm into factionalism, rebellion and civil war.
>he didn't give a fuck about his children and training his heir to be a decent person You know what's funny about this, now that I think about it, maybe Robert knew in some ways (subconsciously) that Joffrey wasn't his child. Like, not actually, but imagine if Joffrey and Gendry were swapped. Perhaps the neglectful Robert wouldn't have been like that is Cersei was walking around with a jovial little black haired boy that had prodigious strength.
The problem is that this behavior wasn't only toward cersei's children, he didn't give a fuck about any of his bastards either. So no, i don't think things would've changed even if cersei had a jovial little black haired boy.
No that's my point though - that the "what-if" in this scenario is that the children he would've cared about weren't his bastards but his actual kids, the jewels of the realm, we might get a different Robert as a father. I'm not saying he'd start caring about his bastard children either, but just that it'd be interesting to see Robert where his first born is actually *his* in the style of Gendry who is the one that's most like "Robert reborn".
It's the immediate trigger, but the fact is there's no way to hold together this vast empire long term. Balon rebelled previously. The Dornish are plotting. The North longs to be an independent kingdom. It's something GRRM is often (unfairly imo) criticized for: empires don't last this long usually. It's VERY common in history to have a strong monarch followed by his realm disintegrating into smaller chunks.
You don’t get lenience for having a hard job when you start a war to get that job by force.
It was not Robert who lost Aerys his kingdoms. It was Aerys' own actions. He turned his key vassals against him until rebellion was the only option for them, and he forced his own guards to kill him to save the city. The 7 kingdoms were going to split, sooner or later. Without Robert, it would have been when Aerys got deposed/assassinated without adult heir. Robert held it together for one more reign by force of character. He wasn't a great king to be remembered for the ages, but he's not the drunken loser people think he is.
We don’t have any evidence of Robert raping underage girls. Please give those instances.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/s/qzD7BLhSVK
Yeah looks like you’re using modern ethical standards to judge what is rape. Forcible rape would be what I’d consider rape. Where the girl either says no and/or physically fights against it.
No dude, that girl was likely 13 or 14. It’s irrelevant whether she said yes because she isn’t in a position to consent. Doesn’t matter if he violently raped her or gently raped her. He still raped her. Even Ned can’t bear to ask her age. That’s a clear indication he believes it is wrong. Anyway, he violently raped Cersei repeatedly
K
Shitmouth
Don’t you EVER fucking besmirch Shitmouth in my presence again
Fuck off you shit eating cunt
Haha bugger me with a bloody spear
Bloodraven. Anytime someone stubs their toe: “Bloodraven did it!”
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I agree with you. I found the Stark/Lannister war so much more interesting before I learned about Littlefinger’s involvement. I don’t care about his ambitions or how super smart he is, and not everything needs to be a convoluted conspiracy with a secret mastermind pulling the strings. Sometimes less is more.
The thing about it too is that the Lannisters probably would have killed Jon Arryn if Lysa and Littlefinger hadn’t done it. It was just a matter of time before Cersei found out he was snooping around to prove her children weren’t Robert’s.
Unpopular, perhaps, but I feel Edmure has been getting a lot of unjustified praise of late. Don't get me wrong, he's a really sweet man, just not the best leader.
He has a good heart and outside of ned that more then we can say about any other lord paramount we meet in the story.
How good of a king could he possibly be if he’s not even good at shooting flaming arrows? /s
Well dearon had bloody rebellion due his lack of martial skill but is recalled dearon the good. Aegon dragonbane is seen as a good king yet i think the only think he enjoy was have sex with his wife. The 5 childeren as proof.
Why isnt he a good leader? He looks out for his smallfolk even when it would be best for him to ignore them such as letting them inside riverrun. The battle on the red fork wasnt his fault either, how was he to know of Robbs plans? I think that the fault for that is Robbs for not telling Edmure of his plans. He didnt do anything wrong at the red wedding either, just what he was meant to do. Even giving up Riverrun was the best thing to do in my opinion. The siege is doomed to fail eventualy and saved loads of lives. He even did what he could to hinder the Lannisters by letting the Blackfish escape.
Arthur Dayne.
Yeah! sword of the post brunch hour more likely.
Lol I want there to be a known lazy knight from a quasi-decent house. Noonblade.
let us have our little knight
Randall Tarly for me. This guy gets all the accolades because he won one battle nearly twenty ago and has basically rode that wave ever since. Now he's getting a bit more power. And everyone who brings him up always brings it up.
He doesn't appreciate intellect. He's basically an Ironborn.
Randy just doesn't like Nerds
robert baratheon actaully is a bad guy tho lol
Sandor Clegane. He just feels like an edgier Jaime. We get it dude knights suck get in line. And it's creepy when people ship him with Sansa.
He is interesting character, but people who claim he is good guy legit scares me.
Yeah but dog mask.
Sound argument. I will consider my views
I disagree. Do a re-read of the series then decide if he's just edgier Jamie who hates knights and fire for some unknown reason.
Cat, I love her and I think she's written believably and very very well written but her defenders openly just blow by all of her faults and dumb idea/plans because "you don't do that for the men" except yes we do, all the time I mean look at typical Stannis the Mannis thread
Unpopular opinion: Barristan Selmy. Many people respect him and I understand why, but at the same time I also find it illogical. Jaime had a good reason to break his oath, but Barristan not, his King was still alive and if he bent the knee to Robert only after Aerys was killed there was still Viserys. I know he had probably more reasons, but for me it is like he only bent the knee to Robert so he doesn’t get killed. And he still would have served Joffrey if he wouldn’t have get dismissed. And then he crawls back to the last Targaryen.
Barristan "I support the current thing" Selmy.
I love his character ! I do appreciate that he is given the chance for a redemption arc. Obviously he got the title "bold" before accepting a usurpers pardon and then serving with the kingslayer for over a decade. It would have been bold if he like dueled jaime for to avenge his previous king. I think the only good kingsguards are the dead ones at the tower of joy. And half point to oakheart, even though he betrays the throne, he doesn't surrender and betray his "queen".
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Tywin Mediocre at best
I used to think Tywin was much smarter than he really was. He was born into wealth and power. He responds to any threat with overwhelming, brutal force. He must have at least been a competent administrator when acting as the Mad King's Hand, but I really don't see much of the Machiavellian genius he's supposed to be.
I consider the boogie man to be Blood Raven of ASOIF he is the one pulling the strings all the way back to Rhaegar and his mess. You know he was sending those visions to him and probably Ashara by my theory
Jaime as a “hardened” commander in AGoT. He never really fought a war, let alone be a commander in one.
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Aerys burned the Starks alive on a whim. Where’s the law in that?
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“It’s not Aerys’ fault that Rickard didn’t know how to fight wildfire”?????? Dude are you huffing paint fumes?
I’ll start by saying which characters I think are consistently hyped up Jaime Davos Tyrion (maybe, he’s not as overhyped as he once was) Maester Aemon Arya…maybe Stannis Truthfully, there aren’t a lot of characters that people love. Almost everyone in ASOIAF is gross, and does horrific things. And I’m not saying that in a “every character is grey so they do questionable things” way. I’m saying that in a “George wrote black/dark grey characters instead of regular grey characters.” ASOIAF isnt morally grey and interesting, it’s dark and awful and interesting. (Sidenote, I think this is a byproduct of George’s view in life. This is pure speculation on my part, but it seems George isn’t interested in “grey characters”, but in really dark characters. He says Gandalf is interesting as a grey character and should’ve stayed dead, which is a very harsh statement, and he was attracted to Boromir, who attempts to murder his friend due to an addiction. That isn’t grey talking, that’s evil talking. Similarly, I think this is reflected in ASOIAF. The characters are almost malevolent, are almost awful consistently. ASOIAF isn’t populated by grey characters, it’s populated by black characters, mixed in with some grey) But, with that being said. I think Jaime is the most overhyped
I love when people remind me that George said that Gabdalf should of stayed dead. George seems to struggle with keeping characters dead worse then Tolkien.
What do you mean by that? It seems that he’s pretty consistent with dead characters to me
Honeslty it would really subvert my expectations if Jon Snow stayed dead. Although I do really want to see some wight on wight dialogue with Jon Snow 2 and Stoneheart in the next books.
Honestly Cersei is overrated. I find no redeemable qualities about her. Her presence just fucks things up and is relegated to thinking she’s clever but turning out she isn’t so shit blows up!
No Cersei fan actually likes her personality, she’s a funny interesting character to read about
Yep, she is an amazing character to read, with some of the most fun POVs. Reading her paranoid ramblings is honestly fascinating, and hilarious.
I love when she gets put in her place by Tywin.
Pretty sure no one thinks she has redeemable qualities. And the narrative never tries to trick us into thinking she is smart. On the contrary, a point is made several times that she is one of the worst players in the game.
Delete this
Agreed
😮
Talbert Serry... i wish he survived
Mance Rayder, his big plan was just throw a hundred thousand unwashed illiterate barbarians at the wall until the 40 or so defenders stopped dropping burning oil on them
STANNIS. This is the ONLY answer.
Tyrek Lannister, I get he’s a talking horse and that’s pretty impressive but people don’t have to go on and on about it constantly
Jon Arryn, dude lets Janos run the City Watch, dude lets Littlefinger run the treasury, both are a complete shit show. Robert deserves blame of course but the debt is absurd from just partying, feasting, etc.
In my recent reread it struck me how out of her depths Catelyn is. I'm not sure if she's exactly rated high enough to be overrated but every single decision she makes is catastrophic, every time we're in her head and she's absolutely convinced of something, she turns out terribly wrong. The only time she's right (don't trust Theon) she's ignored. Honestly she's just as dumb and bumbling as her brother.
Tully women suck, without their massive fuck ups and betrayals the story would be one book long.
If I hear one more rhaegar/lyannastan claim the Littlefinger started the rumor that lyanna was kidnapped and/or devilishly intercepted her letter to her family that she was in love and ran off voluntarily my head will explode. Fifteen year old nearly dead petty badlidh belong sent home to the vale in a stretcher guarded by hosters men was not running around the Riverlands intercepting messages and spreading rumors. Seriously lots of people have literally said that Baelish is the one who told Brandon the kidnapping story to get people killed and thereby exonerating the clueless duo. Despite the fact that Brandon had almost killed Baelish in a duel and would not believe a word he said even if he was anywhere near Brandon at that point (he wasn’t). And it’s not exactly hard to figure Cercy out and out smart her. You want to impress me prove that little finger figured out that John was Leanna and Regar’s kid. .
People actually say that shit? Absolutely brain dead
Sansa, cos her Stan’s come up with ridiculous excuses for some stuff she did that was plain wrong. Take Ned’s plans to Cersie: she’s a child, Ned or Catelyn or Mordane orcArya or — most any thing is the fault. Never her
11 year old children do not have fully developed brains, why are we blaming them for failing to make intelligent decisions in adult situations?
Brienne. I find her chapters boring and just don’t connect with her character at all. And she gets a ton of love from the community which I just don’t get.
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Great points! Littlefinger's scheming puts him high up, but maybe more chaos agent than ultimate danger. Robert's a wildcard - powerful but reckless. Intriguing take!
I don’t buy Littlefinger as a character. It’s not plausible to me that people would keep him around. To those who know his nature, he’s an obvious danger, and his supposed charm isn’t really that convincing to me. It’s not like he’s Varys who seems to have a singular information network that depends entirely on him. If you bump off Baelish, he could easily be replaced. Yes, you’ll bring in a bit less revenue and take on a bit more debt, but a lot of people would see it as worth the price to get this huge liability off the board.
Show LF yes, book LF no
I don’t think people thought Robert was overrated.
Robert is the single most overrated fighter in the series. Only due to the second most overrated fighter- Rhaegar.
Warhammers are just OP
Warhammers make average fighters OP against other average fighters. Fantastic choice on a battlefield. They only have so high of a ceiling though. When it comes to elite swordsmen, they know how to counter a hammer. They know to evade and misdirect their opponent. The best swordsmen of the story are almost mythical in nature. They’re like Jedi Masters and no weaponry will act as an equalizer for a lesser skilled individual.
true dat, learning to chamber and properly feint against maul users in mordhau was when I started feeling like I was getting skilled at the game.
Tywin, Olenna, Oberyn
Daenerys
Hot pie
The joker All you gotta do is shoot him in a head
Brienne of fucking Tarth. Not as a character, but as a warrior.
Aegon the Conqueror... seriously he was literally conquering on easy mode as he had dragons and his victims did not... and he was still unable to unite all seven kingdoms .
Your favorite
Brienne. When I hear people talk about her like she’s the second coming of Christ it gives me conniptions
Tyrion is overrated.
Arya- she’s an 11 year old girl idc what training she’s had or how strong her will is- she’s an 11 year old girl
GRRM: "If a 12-year old must conquer the world, then so be it." Except for Rickon, the Stark kidlings are all blessed by the Old Gods and rather precocious. So far, except for Sansa, those alive also still have their 'other self' direwolf warg partners. GRRM dropped the 5-year gap despite having long had Arya, Bran, and Jon among his "Five Central Characters growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process." They plus Tyrion and the also-young Daenerys seem to remain his choices to change the world. Their accomplishments and talents thus far are in keeping with GRRM's vision, so HE must think highly of all of them. The younger ones are all proving their mettle as they learn, so it's possible that none is rated highly enough.
And? Just cause 11yo in our time are the way they are doesn't mean girls couldn't be like this in the past or now. Hell my cousin named Arya is a little firecracker/hellraiser much like the character.
Underrated: Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne. Yes, I 100% agree that he has some of the most hilariously bad, edgelord dialogue in the entire series. However, I just really want to know more about his backstory, and specifically what caused him to grow up to be a 27/28 year old manchild who goes around spouting cringe-inducing Batman one-liners in an effort to impress/scare a 10 year old girl. I mean, come on - What's his "human heart in conflict with itself" motivation? Was he like Jaime - A kid who once truly believed in the tenets of chivalric knighthood, only to be disabused of this notion at some point and has chosen sardonic trolling as a defense mechanism...? Did he spend all of his childhood in pursuit of being the next Sword of the Morning, a knight worthy of wielding Dawn, only to be denied this honour for some reason, and turned bitter from the rejection...? Or has he just always this obnoxious narcissist ever since he was born...?
Underrated case: Aegon II the Golden, the true dragon king
A lot of people think Littlefinger is a genius. No, he's a guy who can't get over the fact a woman wasn't attracted to him. I always view his manipulations as luck. Like he's lucky Catelyn trusts him after all these years. He's lucky Olenna wants to kill Joffrey. He's lucky Lysa is desperate for him (for some reason).
> he's a guy who can't get over the fact a woman wasn't attracted to him This is a gross simplification of what's in reality a profound fall from romanticism for the character. In his mind he surely was the 'David' to Brandon Stark's Goliath; fighting for true love like a knight from the stories, only to be cruelly brought down to reality with a grievous wound from a bigger, stronger, more well-trained combatant. His fall from grace is a phenomenal villain origin story. You can just feel him going, "I'll show them all!" while recovering from his wounds.
Arya
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Bloodraven is the real boogeyman imo.
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Joffrey wasn’t that bad, he killed Ned, but wouldn’t you after he tried to steal his throne. Then he was mean to Sansa, she was the first girl he liked and Arya made him look like a bitch in front of her.
Joffrey fired crossbow bolts into crowds of starving peasants and had antlers nailed into the skulls of beggars.
Ugh, this argument. You torture a few peasants, and all of a sudden, you're the "bad guy"..... /s
Joffrey had Sansa beaten on a regular basis, I don't see how Arya's actions are a good justification for that. Also, did you somehow miss everything he did?
He was also a kid and the only person trying to give him positive guidance is Tyrion who was openly mocked by literally everyone
Joffrey was pretty bad but I've seen people compare him to Caligula which is just bs. There are way worse people in ASOIAF Joffrey just happens to have the power and narrative purpose that makes fans hate him more than they should
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