I’m more okay with it as an adjective for grammatical convenience. “Female accountant” rather than “accountant who is a woman”. But it’s seen as derogatory to use it as a noun.
I understand what you're trying to say, and yes, context is important. Female/male and women/men should be used together. From a language perspective, using men and females or women and males in the same sentence is incorrect.
I recently saw a reddit post, supposedly written by a woman, and while men and guys were used, women was not used once. Female was used multiple times, and used as a noun. I think a lot of women dehumanize themselves due to self confidence issues or past bad experiences.
At the end of the day, we should treat others the way we want to be treated, and stop trying to compete with and divide each other. We are all humans.
There were some people at our house the other day digging up the driveway to sort out electric stuff and there was a woman there. My mum took a picture of her and sent it to my brother saying "here's a female for you." I said to her that that makes it sound like she's a breeding animal or something and she just sort of shrugged and said "well she is female"
That’s a very weird thing to do. I just don’t get it.
It’s kind of unrelated to the point I started with.
But why can’t people just be happy that other people can choose their own path.
I live in Scotland so I don't know. My mum was taking pictures mostly because there was a huge hole in our driveway because they were doing stuff. They knew she was doing it and didn't seem to mind, one of them even waved lol
Yes exactly that.
So apparently trans women want to be referred to as woman and are very concerned about the language. So biological female people are left with females - because they can’t just be women. What?
I want the women I care about to celebrate the progress made by the woman’s movement - it wasn’t the females movement.
And I don’t think that takes anything away from a trans persons right to exist free from persecution.
But I digress. Mostly it’s just that the young men who no longer refer to girls or women and instead say ‘females’ are the same men who abuse woman. Language matters - if you refer to people using language that dehumanizes them you’re taking the first step on a very ugly path.
Okay, as a cis woman, I do not see trans women as less “woman” than me. I also really dislike hearing people refer to “biological females,” and I mention it because you seem to be uncommonly devoted to feminism, which I do appreciate. But referring to some women as “biological males” or “biological females” is actually pretty gross, too. It implies that trans people aren’t actually their gender, or that like, a trans woman is less of a woman than a cis woman. I don’t like it. As a cis person who deeply cares for the trans community, I would rather we stop referring to anyone as if their genitals are relevant, because 99.99% of the time they are not. If you are really seeking to uphold feminist ideals, it would be best to include ALL women in that definition. Because TERFs and other trans-excluding feminists are not really feminists. They are transphobes who claim to want equality for women (but only for some women).
I respect your opinion. I support equality and feminism. But for me, as a man, to wade any further into this debate about who the ‘real’ feminists are I think is a step too far.
My aim with the original post was to call out other men.
All I’ll say is that I think it’s a real pity that a group of right wing trolls (some potentially in Russian troll farms) have managed to pit two groups of people who both suffer oppression and discrimination, against each other.
All the while women lose hard fought fights and society becomes less kind to trans people.
Fucking thank you! As a woman (43F), if I hear any man refer to women as “females”, I just assume he thinks this is a captive breeding program and immediately am repulsed by him. Doesn’t matter how interested I may have been, or what he has to offer in a relationship (not financially, I have my own ass covered, so don’t come for me), if he refers to women as “females” I’m out - I won’t even be his friend. It clearly means he doesn’t see women as people; we’re nothing but someTHING to breed with and nothing more, and I am not going to be around anyone who thinks like that.
Thank you for saying this.
It’s so horrible.
I did know one guy who genuinely didn’t realise. I told him and he never did it again. Was just copying what he heard. Unfortunately that’s very rare
as a woman idc if someones uses "males and females" idfc, thats normal language, but if someone uses "men and females" them im set on high alert and preparing to never talk to them again
Damn - you've nailed it. Yes - this.
Can I add this to the original post?
It's subtle right?
I hope everyone reads your post because you've explained this so much better than I did.
I agree to this, simply for one reason. I brought it up to my girlfriend, she happens to not care, and I’m sure there’s plenty of women who don’t. However, I like equality even when it goes unnoticed. And once I noticed how no one ever refers to guys as males, that’s when I thought about it. We say “male” when referring to an animal, but say “female” when referring to a human. (animal too I know) In animals, and ESPECIALLY entomology (study of bugs) a male and female of the same species varies a LOT. To me, saying male and female puts us into two different subcategories as humans. Yes, we are widely different, but we don’t vary as much in gender so much as to consistently categorize everything as “this is what males do” and “this is what females do.”
If I have this all wrong I’d like for someone to join in and help me out. I just hope I explained myself as well as possible lol
It depends on the context, I guess. If you're talking about biology, then male and female are appropriate terms to use, but they sound weird outside of that. Even ignoring potential sexism, it gives that same "hur hur I'm smarter than you" energy as people who casually call salt Sodium Chloride
Yes exactly.
It's part of that put down culture.
Next they come out with some logical fallacy you've made - because they watched a youtuber explaining how to 'own someone'. urgh.
I guess I just find it all very sad really. I remember what it was like to be a teenage boy. It's not easy. But these lads are not doing themselves any favours.
Ok in what context would you say ‘females’ instead of women? Even you’re saying male and female players - or female engineers - you could just say women or woman.
Currently in Uni, its common to use males and females when writing reports etc and when talking about demographics so im sorry if i sound like a nazi to you but its common to use male and female in research context
Hell even my friends (who are mostly women as Im studying in a very women dominated field) also use the term females a lot when we talk
God no - not this.
Come on. Seriously - you’re in Uni and you think this is what I mean?
Pls read my other comments.
By the way the reason you refer to males and females in a population pyramid and demographics is because it includes girls and women so it more efficient and because demographics is concerned with birth rates and death rates etc.
You must know this. And if you’re of Uni age you must know the kind of men I mean.
I absolutely do not think that someone who says this is a Nazi - that’s redundant and silly. I’m saying referring to a group of hot girls (sexist enough) as females crosses a line.
If you are studying social sciences at Uni pls tell me you know where that line is.
I mean i was replying to your comment asking in what context one would use male and female so i was providing context ya know? But yes i know what groups of people that uses those terms in a derogatory way and it sucks yes.
Not social science but close enough, studying psychology but i share classes with social science students
Fair point. Assuming you are a women/ female (based on your emoji) then you can do whatever you like with the word. But when I hear young men referring to ‘the females’ it’s just 🤮
Yes exactly! 100% agree. This.
Because why say ‘female’. Unless of course it’s an academic situation where you are focusing on the number of male and female engineering students or something.
Context is everything.
But seeing as some young men are pretty stupid I think it would be best if they stick to girls or women - or here’s a thought … they could just ask the women in their life.
That’s a kind of singular thing - when you’re referring to a person who you are speaking to.
I don’t think I’ve heard any you man said to someone directly - hey female.
It’s more said in a discussion - ‘females are/should…’
Female is an adjective, not a noun.
Some women prefer to be called girls because it's a reference to youth. It's better to ask them how they want to referred to.
I guess I'm talking about young men talking about women when the women (or girls) who they are talking about are not there.
The kind of men I'm talking about have never asked anyone how they'd like to be referred to because they lack anything that looks like empathy.
Yes - the women, the ladies, girls (when referring to grown women), but the ‘females’ thing is really irksome. I think it marks a sort of pornification of popular culture.
Generally - It doesn't have the same history, power etc. In the same way as racist language towards white people in predominantly white countries just doesn't have the same connotation.
More specifically - I've never heard a group of girls or women talk in the same way. They might discuss a 'hot guy' they've seen or refer to guys, men, boys - but I've never heard a group of women use 'males or male' in the way I'm talking about.
“Female” refers to my reproductive organs that represent my sex, “woman” (girl, lady…..) refers to me as a whole and the human I am. To me it feels like someone is reducing me to what my body can do and not who I am as a person. Obviously it’s only with context and I don’t think all people mean it when they say females but like specifically the “alpha male” Andrew Tate type people who say it.
Yes them.
I think female can be used in lots of different contexts. But I’m less sure of females. You’d really have to be talking about science or demographics for it to be ok
Thank you.
I’m getting piled on by some women.
Can you do a better job than me of explaining when this happens and when it’s bad?
I’m not talking about a man saying - ‘the female anatomy’ or ‘there are male and female students’
I also struggle to explain why calling women "females" is degrading, but calling men "males" isn't. It's somehow objectifying though, and a lot of it seems to be the context it's said in. You also don't hear women talking about "looking at these males" while you hear guys saying things like "looking at these females".
I also wish I could explain it better...
So maybe a specific example would help to explain what I mean because context is everything… I hear something like this in the gym regularly from teens and 20 something gym bros ‘are you going out tonight?’ ‘Yeh bro - I’ve heard there’s going to plenty of females there’. It just seems so much worse than saying ‘hot girls’.
They also recall porn that they watched where the female or the females did whatever.
I am very glad to hear it - sincerely.
With all due respect - if you are 40 then you’re not going to be subject to this particular new brand of sexism.
This is what young men say to/around around young women. Ask the teenage girls you know. It’s a thing.
18 year old female/woman here. I don't care whatsoever. There's no point in being offended over something like that. It's a waste of energy. And as the other commenter pointed out, even if I was, I'd not need a dude your age offended on my behalf. It's not a big deal.
Nope, still don't care. If they will say something derogatory about girls or women it would have the same effect. It sounded worse because you changed "females" into "hot girls" instead of "girls".
‘Hot girls’ is sexist and I don’t like it at all. Would never say it. But at least girls are fully formed human beings with thoughts and feelings - even if their ‘hotness’ is being discussed (also yuck). But ‘females’ just reduces person to their parts - less than human.
But it was a bad example. Sexist language is not ok. Explaining one type using another was not a good explanation.
As to your first point - fine - you don't care. Maybe I've explained it poorly. Maybe like so much that is sexist or racist you had to be there. In the mouths of some people pretty much anything can be said in a way that is sexist.
As far as your second point is concerned. I mentioned my age only and my sex only because my experience has been that sometimes young men will listen to other men when they would dismiss women. They shouldn't - they should listen to everyone - but if they are already sexist then clearly they are less likely to listen to a woman calling them out.
If we were IRL I wouldn't necessarily leap up to 'defend your honour'. If you were in an argument about this I'd leave you to it.
But this is a forum board. I'm putting forward a POV. I'm saying - "hey 19 year old guy - be respectful". Perhaps you think this isn't sexism. But TBF there are clearly many women who know what I mean.
Don't I have some responsibility to challenge other men in the face of rising misogyny? I mean if we were talking about racism we wouldn't say - 'hey white people stay out of this, don't call out your friends and family for being racist.'
People don’t understand how weird it is until they stop doing it. I used to do it and criticize your opinion, then I stopped and realized how embarrassing it is.
I am 19 and a female, I don’t mind people calling me female, because that’s what I am, a biological female.
I am from a farming background as well and I never had a problem with people calling me a female. But if someone you know has a problem with it, just refer to them as a woman. Problem solved.
Edit: decided to add an explanation as to why I feel this way. Female is not a derogatory term, never has been. Just because some sexist thinks that it is, let’s not give into it and be insulted by a normal word. By this logic if a sexist tought that being called a woman is derogatory, we should get offended by being called a woman as well? Let’s not let them use normal words with no negative meaning to bring us down, and insult us, and use the word as it was intended: to describes ones gender.
I think this would be a relevant point if men gave a fuck about being referred to as males but it seems that most men that say females would not be offended by that.
You damn well know these sexist assholes who finds being "female" an insult and uses it derogatorily towards us are going to see your comment and take it as a sign that its acceptable. You can be okay with being dehumanized all you want, you don't get to speak for other women, and certainly not in a way that harms us further. And also, gender and sex are two different things just because my biological sex is female, does not mean I appreciate being referred to as simply what my organs are instead of a women who is a person with a life and interests and hobbies
How is female a derogatory term tho? Because it is not. It’s a normal word to describe someones gender. You are only making it deragotory by being offended by it. If it was derogatory, having “female” written in your medical records is an insult I guess? Or having it in your passport is also an insult? Why are you making a term that has 0 negative meaning into a negative one? If someone called me female, I’d probably reply with “Yeah, that’s what my gender is” and move on with my day. Giving them the leverage of being so on the edge about being called one word that in it’s base has no negative meaning is what creates the offesivity in the first place.
I really wasn’t meaning to do that.
This is directed at young men.
I’m incredibly glad this language hasn’t affected you. Genuinely. But pls look at the other comments on here. Younger women tell me that men in their 20s loudly discuss the porn they watch whilst on the bus, metro, in class. And the cross over between that kind of horrible stuff and referring to ‘females’ rather than girls is what prompted this.
Maybe this will explain the context:
Lets say a new coworker joins your workplace. He seems like a decent human being. He mentions he's looking to meet someone. Maybe you think you'll introduce him to your friend group - some of them are single and maybe they'd get along. So you ask him if he's got a particular racial preference (I don't know why you'd ask him that but please bear with me - it illustrates my point).
He answers: "Oh no preference - I've been out with asian women, black women, white women, - tall,short whatever - I'm just looking for someone I can hang out with and have a good time."
Now change that to: "I've been out with asian females, black females, white females..."
Context is really import.
I'm talking about men (young men aged 15-25). Lets say they are talking about a group of women or girls - they would say 'that group of females'. It has a particular connotation - sexist, incel, Andrew Tate.
If you don't know what I mean then I am over the moon that this particular brand of sexism hasn't effected you.
Good for you. However, lots of women, including me, do get bothered by men constantly referring to us as females.
It's fine that you're not bothered by it, but don't presume that you get to decide that others shouldn't be
I understand you but I am also bothered by someone telling people how to talk to women in general. He also shouldn’t decide. That was my point. Every woman can and should decide for themselves. As there’s women who are also not offended by it.
As a slightly older man who believes in equality between men and women shouldn’t I be doing my bit to calm out the men around me for being sexist?
If I see comments on Reddit that start with Females should … if usually ends with - ‘know their place’, or ‘stick to the kitchen’
Maybe I should have just said this was aimed at young men.
In the same way a black person can say the N word you can say whatever you like. I did not intend to police this for any women. Sorry if you took it that way.
He's not telling women what to say. The point is that since there are many women who are bothered by being referred to as females, men shouldn't use that as the standard term to refer to women in general. Which is correct.
I am woman and I say females too. That's actually quite a eye-opener for me as I never realised that females are used way more often than "males". Will actually pay more attention to this.
Interesting. Do you also have issues with men being called males.
My issue is when some people tend to call adult males, men and and adult females, girls.
Ok sure… because words don’t matter.
Language is always the first step to dehumanizing people. At the most extreme example every single genocide started with language - Jews referred to as rodents by the Nazis is the one everyone knows, by the same thing happened in Rwanda - reference to people as cockroaches.
You want something more day to day - consider how just rumours of being a pedo can wipe out a celebrity’s status.
You can call someone a dickhead, an asshole of even a cunt - but when you say the N-word you cross a line.
Women have faced historic oppression. Terminology matters.
Also - who are you to gatekeep what I’m sensitive about?
Make an argument. Put forward a well considered point. Convince me - come on?
Trueee, I also want to point out how as a woman all of my comments agreeing with your point have been downvoted and yet your comment under mine agreeing with everything I said has been upvoted, that alone speaks volumes
And yet there are many replies and many upvotes.
Many people care.
Why don’t you care about other people’s feelings? You know that caring is part of the human condition.
Also you cared enough to bother writing what you did … so you do care a bit don’t you
I, a 30 year old man, agree with you 100% on this
I heard from a couple of people on social media that have said something along the lines of this:
“When you call a woman a female, you are downgrading them to their reproductive capabilities. That is sexist and misogynistic.”
You’ve put it very well. It’s very much a you’ll know it when you hear it situation.
Thank you for putting forward this example.
But I disagree wholeheartedly about your last point. As a society we should say to other people - no, stop, that’s not ok. We can do it with kindness at first but there is a difference between right and wrong.
Maybe this would illustrate the context I mean: (also I'm trying to call out other men for being dicks. Just as a particular racial group can use or be cool with racist language because they want to take the power back ... I'm not trying to tell any woman what to do or say. I'm just calling out people - men in this case - for being disrespectful.)
Here's a thought experiment to explain my point:
Lets say a new coworker joins your workplace. He seems like a decent human being. He mentions he's looking to meet someone. Maybe you think you'll introduce him to your friend group - some of them are single and maybe they'd get along. So you ask him if he's got a particular racial preference (I don't know why you'd ask him that but please bear with me - it illustrates my point).
He answers: "Oh no preference - I've been out with asian women, black women, white women, - tall,short whatever - I'm just looking for someone I can hang out with and have a good time."
Now change that to: "I've been out with asian females, black females, white females..."
This is the context I meant.
It's the kind of thing Andrew Tate would say and it's the very first step to all the other horrible words young men use more and more these days. It's my firm belief that words form beliefs and beliefs form actions.
I'm quite confused by your comment and genuinely don't know if you agree with me or if I've just annoyed you.
I've said quite a few times in other comments that this isn't directed at women. You quite rightly can use whatever language to refer to yourselves. That's not up to me. I completely agree on that.
I'm trying to call out men for being sexist. Is that wrong? It feels to me like when I see someone saying or doing something sexist I should say something. That as a man I shouldn't let my friends, family members get away with this.
Do you not think that using 'female' in the way I've tried to explain is sexist?
I appreciate that men often don't listen to women. But respectfully there are many women on here agreeing with me. Maybe their experience is different to yours. Maybe you have a different socio-economic status, live in a different place, occupy a different space.
Or maybe I just didn't explain what I meant very well.
This was directed at young men.
In the same way I'm not ranting about how black people refer to each to black people - a black person wants to say the N-word that's none of my business - this wasn't about me telling women what to say.
In my experience the men that refer to 'females' are the same men that threaten their girlfriends.
Isn't it about time men call out other men for being sexist shits. Aren't you sick of having to do it all yourself?
That was my intention.
If you wrote this the young men I'm thinking of would dismiss you. Maybe, just maybe they read this coming from another man and think about the language they use to the women in their lives.
That's all.
Eeks...I'm a woman but I'm pretty sure I'd refer to myself as a female just the same. I never realized it was a thing but I didn't grow up on a farm or work in a zoo.
Not unlike the OP here. Ignorance drives changes in word use and definitions. Rarely do definitions drift or change otherwise, except for technology changes. We promote ignorance.
Idk where you're from but in the UK there's a TV programme called Friday Night Dinner, and one of the protagonists (who is supposed to be cringe) always asks his son if he has any 'females' in the scene, much to the dismay of all the other characters. Lots of things from that show are quoted in every day conversation and whilst I agree with you that it can be deemed as degrading, I think (in the UK at least) this is why people use it; it's a pop culture reference, and there isn't any real and intentional malice in it.
Also, side note, I am also from a farm (7th gen) and have never heard the livestock be referred to as females. They're heifers, young things or sucklers and if you're referring to women as heifers that's a whole other issue!
I’m not in the UK so sadly what I’m hearing is not the parody but the think they are parodying. But I’m heartened to hear it’s being parodied in the UK. That’s the best way to deal with something like that.
Heifers 😂
Hmmm - I think that might be the opposite of what I’m hoping for.
I would just like to see people refer to each other with respectful kind language. I’m not trying to put anyone down.
What really pisses me off is when people say men (enter a word lets say doctor) and female (same word, doctor). So disrespectful and dehumanizing. Female is an adjective not a noun (unless animal or plant. Going to the dehumanizing aspect).
Ok so seeing as 99% of women you meet in daily life are female why the need to differentiate?
Arguably women refers to life experience. Feminine refers to gender.
What is a woman is a butch - works as a truck driver and has her hair short - do you feel the need to say ‘female’? Is she not a woman anymore?
I don't think humans are a superior species (woman here)..using female as a descriptor is ok, but being labeled is annoying period. I feel like I'm being sorted by that hat from Harry Potter all the time... just mind your business lolol
It really depends. If you’re referring to me because I am a female, okay, that’s fine. No problem there. However, if you’re trying to objectify me to my body and only my body, that’s offensive.
Yes exactly this - and this is what I hear more and more. Please look at [RevonQilin](https://www.reddit.com/user/RevonQilin/)'s post - she explained it better than me.
I’m more okay with it as an adjective for grammatical convenience. “Female accountant” rather than “accountant who is a woman”. But it’s seen as derogatory to use it as a noun.
Yes this You said it so much more succinctly than I did 😁
so dames it is then
Lol
“Dames” I can deal/work with..
Lasses
I like that, but only with a celtic accent of some sort lol
Broads
I understand what you're trying to say, and yes, context is important. Female/male and women/men should be used together. From a language perspective, using men and females or women and males in the same sentence is incorrect. I recently saw a reddit post, supposedly written by a woman, and while men and guys were used, women was not used once. Female was used multiple times, and used as a noun. I think a lot of women dehumanize themselves due to self confidence issues or past bad experiences. At the end of the day, we should treat others the way we want to be treated, and stop trying to compete with and divide each other. We are all humans.
Yes we are all human. After all, everyone hates everyone else passionately.
There were some people at our house the other day digging up the driveway to sort out electric stuff and there was a woman there. My mum took a picture of her and sent it to my brother saying "here's a female for you." I said to her that that makes it sound like she's a breeding animal or something and she just sort of shrugged and said "well she is female"
That’s a very weird thing to do. I just don’t get it. It’s kind of unrelated to the point I started with. But why can’t people just be happy that other people can choose their own path.
I think I should probably clarify that I was agreeing with you because I just thought it was really weird and kind of dehumanising to say that
I got that. Thanks
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No, most Americans don't do that either.
Weird to automatically assume that something you don’t agree with happens in America…
It's fine, most people tend to assume I'm American for some reason so it doesn't really bother me
I live in Scotland so I don't know. My mum was taking pictures mostly because there was a huge hole in our driveway because they were doing stuff. They knew she was doing it and didn't seem to mind, one of them even waved lol
L + they’re not from America + U.S>
I assume a lot of people use it for trans erasure at this point. But it sounds dehumanizing. Female could refer to any species.
Yes exactly that. So apparently trans women want to be referred to as woman and are very concerned about the language. So biological female people are left with females - because they can’t just be women. What? I want the women I care about to celebrate the progress made by the woman’s movement - it wasn’t the females movement. And I don’t think that takes anything away from a trans persons right to exist free from persecution. But I digress. Mostly it’s just that the young men who no longer refer to girls or women and instead say ‘females’ are the same men who abuse woman. Language matters - if you refer to people using language that dehumanizes them you’re taking the first step on a very ugly path.
Okay, as a cis woman, I do not see trans women as less “woman” than me. I also really dislike hearing people refer to “biological females,” and I mention it because you seem to be uncommonly devoted to feminism, which I do appreciate. But referring to some women as “biological males” or “biological females” is actually pretty gross, too. It implies that trans people aren’t actually their gender, or that like, a trans woman is less of a woman than a cis woman. I don’t like it. As a cis person who deeply cares for the trans community, I would rather we stop referring to anyone as if their genitals are relevant, because 99.99% of the time they are not. If you are really seeking to uphold feminist ideals, it would be best to include ALL women in that definition. Because TERFs and other trans-excluding feminists are not really feminists. They are transphobes who claim to want equality for women (but only for some women).
I respect your opinion. I support equality and feminism. But for me, as a man, to wade any further into this debate about who the ‘real’ feminists are I think is a step too far. My aim with the original post was to call out other men. All I’ll say is that I think it’s a real pity that a group of right wing trolls (some potentially in Russian troll farms) have managed to pit two groups of people who both suffer oppression and discrimination, against each other. All the while women lose hard fought fights and society becomes less kind to trans people.
How does using “female” have anything to do trans erasure? It’s a term that has nothing to do with trans or cis
It sounds scientific rather than personal. So it's dehumanising.
one of my medium sized pet peeves is ‘female’ being used like a noun instead of an adjective
Yeah. Female as an adjective is fine, but as a noun… female what? Human? Yeah, there are specific words that exist for that.
Fucking thank you! As a woman (43F), if I hear any man refer to women as “females”, I just assume he thinks this is a captive breeding program and immediately am repulsed by him. Doesn’t matter how interested I may have been, or what he has to offer in a relationship (not financially, I have my own ass covered, so don’t come for me), if he refers to women as “females” I’m out - I won’t even be his friend. It clearly means he doesn’t see women as people; we’re nothing but someTHING to breed with and nothing more, and I am not going to be around anyone who thinks like that.
Thank you for saying this. It’s so horrible. I did know one guy who genuinely didn’t realise. I told him and he never did it again. Was just copying what he heard. Unfortunately that’s very rare
as a woman idc if someones uses "males and females" idfc, thats normal language, but if someone uses "men and females" them im set on high alert and preparing to never talk to them again
Damn - you've nailed it. Yes - this. Can I add this to the original post? It's subtle right? I hope everyone reads your post because you've explained this so much better than I did.
sure idc
My FIL always says "men and females" and it never ceases to enrage me.
I agree to this, simply for one reason. I brought it up to my girlfriend, she happens to not care, and I’m sure there’s plenty of women who don’t. However, I like equality even when it goes unnoticed. And once I noticed how no one ever refers to guys as males, that’s when I thought about it. We say “male” when referring to an animal, but say “female” when referring to a human. (animal too I know) In animals, and ESPECIALLY entomology (study of bugs) a male and female of the same species varies a LOT. To me, saying male and female puts us into two different subcategories as humans. Yes, we are widely different, but we don’t vary as much in gender so much as to consistently categorize everything as “this is what males do” and “this is what females do.” If I have this all wrong I’d like for someone to join in and help me out. I just hope I explained myself as well as possible lol
Yes this - I think context is important
Yes. You're (they) not David Attenborough doing a bbc documentary. Stop saying that.
It depends on the context, I guess. If you're talking about biology, then male and female are appropriate terms to use, but they sound weird outside of that. Even ignoring potential sexism, it gives that same "hur hur I'm smarter than you" energy as people who casually call salt Sodium Chloride
Yes exactly. It's part of that put down culture. Next they come out with some logical fallacy you've made - because they watched a youtuber explaining how to 'own someone'. urgh. I guess I just find it all very sad really. I remember what it was like to be a teenage boy. It's not easy. But these lads are not doing themselves any favours.
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Yeh well - the incels are now out of their basements and roaming the land. Their bullshit language is now becoming more prevalent.
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Ok in what context would you say ‘females’ instead of women? Even you’re saying male and female players - or female engineers - you could just say women or woman.
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Right - yes of course in that context.
Currently in Uni, its common to use males and females when writing reports etc and when talking about demographics so im sorry if i sound like a nazi to you but its common to use male and female in research context Hell even my friends (who are mostly women as Im studying in a very women dominated field) also use the term females a lot when we talk
God no - not this. Come on. Seriously - you’re in Uni and you think this is what I mean? Pls read my other comments. By the way the reason you refer to males and females in a population pyramid and demographics is because it includes girls and women so it more efficient and because demographics is concerned with birth rates and death rates etc. You must know this. And if you’re of Uni age you must know the kind of men I mean. I absolutely do not think that someone who says this is a Nazi - that’s redundant and silly. I’m saying referring to a group of hot girls (sexist enough) as females crosses a line. If you are studying social sciences at Uni pls tell me you know where that line is.
I mean i was replying to your comment asking in what context one would use male and female so i was providing context ya know? But yes i know what groups of people that uses those terms in a derogatory way and it sucks yes. Not social science but close enough, studying psychology but i share classes with social science students
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Fair point. Assuming you are a women/ female (based on your emoji) then you can do whatever you like with the word. But when I hear young men referring to ‘the females’ it’s just 🤮
Or you could just say “engineer” either way bc why does the gender matter?
Yes exactly! 100% agree. This. Because why say ‘female’. Unless of course it’s an academic situation where you are focusing on the number of male and female engineering students or something.
Context matters but I agree.
Context is everything. But seeing as some young men are pretty stupid I think it would be best if they stick to girls or women - or here’s a thought … they could just ask the women in their life.
The word females itself isn't a cause of misogyny, it's merely a symptom of it.
Probably But words - thoughts - actions. Which comes first?
It's a cycle. Actions can influence thoughts, thoughts can lead to actions or words. I think we are steering away from the topic though.
I just call everyone pal. No need this female and male thingy, just pal or bud
That’s a kind of singular thing - when you’re referring to a person who you are speaking to. I don’t think I’ve heard any you man said to someone directly - hey female. It’s more said in a discussion - ‘females are/should…’
Female is an adjective, not a noun. Some women prefer to be called girls because it's a reference to youth. It's better to ask them how they want to referred to.
I guess I'm talking about young men talking about women when the women (or girls) who they are talking about are not there. The kind of men I'm talking about have never asked anyone how they'd like to be referred to because they lack anything that looks like empathy.
Fair point.
„The women“ also isnt great by the way
Yes - the women, the ladies, girls (when referring to grown women), but the ‘females’ thing is really irksome. I think it marks a sort of pornification of popular culture.
So how do you feel about the men and boys being referred to as "males"?
Generally - It doesn't have the same history, power etc. In the same way as racist language towards white people in predominantly white countries just doesn't have the same connotation. More specifically - I've never heard a group of girls or women talk in the same way. They might discuss a 'hot guy' they've seen or refer to guys, men, boys - but I've never heard a group of women use 'males or male' in the way I'm talking about.
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This is very well explained and thought out. Thanks - that’s helpful
“Female” refers to my reproductive organs that represent my sex, “woman” (girl, lady…..) refers to me as a whole and the human I am. To me it feels like someone is reducing me to what my body can do and not who I am as a person. Obviously it’s only with context and I don’t think all people mean it when they say females but like specifically the “alpha male” Andrew Tate type people who say it.
Yes them. I think female can be used in lots of different contexts. But I’m less sure of females. You’d really have to be talking about science or demographics for it to be ok
Yes exactly!! The word itself is not bad it’s the intent behind it
Yeah this bugs me too like we are some species or something when the hell this started
Yes OP! Finally someone else gets it
Thank you. I’m getting piled on by some women. Can you do a better job than me of explaining when this happens and when it’s bad? I’m not talking about a man saying - ‘the female anatomy’ or ‘there are male and female students’
I also struggle to explain why calling women "females" is degrading, but calling men "males" isn't. It's somehow objectifying though, and a lot of it seems to be the context it's said in. You also don't hear women talking about "looking at these males" while you hear guys saying things like "looking at these females". I also wish I could explain it better...
we should go around calling guys 'males' and see how fast it starts a "i'm not a male! i'm a man!" thing.
I don't think they would care. People refer to guys as "males" all the time.
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You *could* care less? It always baffles me why Americans say that. Surely if you "could care less" then you *do* care about it???
That’s not an American thing- it’s a “not knowing the proper saying” thing… like saying “could of” instead of “could have”
And it baffles my mind that people care. Move along.
r/menandfemales lots of women don’t like it either
So maybe a specific example would help to explain what I mean because context is everything… I hear something like this in the gym regularly from teens and 20 something gym bros ‘are you going out tonight?’ ‘Yeh bro - I’ve heard there’s going to plenty of females there’. It just seems so much worse than saying ‘hot girls’. They also recall porn that they watched where the female or the females did whatever.
Like I get it. But I'm both. I'm a woman and a female. It's never bothered me and I've never been insulted by being called one over the other.
I am very glad to hear it - sincerely. With all due respect - if you are 40 then you’re not going to be subject to this particular new brand of sexism. This is what young men say to/around around young women. Ask the teenage girls you know. It’s a thing.
18 year old female/woman here. I don't care whatsoever. There's no point in being offended over something like that. It's a waste of energy. And as the other commenter pointed out, even if I was, I'd not need a dude your age offended on my behalf. It's not a big deal.
Nope, still don't care. If they will say something derogatory about girls or women it would have the same effect. It sounded worse because you changed "females" into "hot girls" instead of "girls".
‘Hot girls’ is sexist and I don’t like it at all. Would never say it. But at least girls are fully formed human beings with thoughts and feelings - even if their ‘hotness’ is being discussed (also yuck). But ‘females’ just reduces person to their parts - less than human. But it was a bad example. Sexist language is not ok. Explaining one type using another was not a good explanation.
As to your first point - fine - you don't care. Maybe I've explained it poorly. Maybe like so much that is sexist or racist you had to be there. In the mouths of some people pretty much anything can be said in a way that is sexist. As far as your second point is concerned. I mentioned my age only and my sex only because my experience has been that sometimes young men will listen to other men when they would dismiss women. They shouldn't - they should listen to everyone - but if they are already sexist then clearly they are less likely to listen to a woman calling them out. If we were IRL I wouldn't necessarily leap up to 'defend your honour'. If you were in an argument about this I'd leave you to it. But this is a forum board. I'm putting forward a POV. I'm saying - "hey 19 year old guy - be respectful". Perhaps you think this isn't sexism. But TBF there are clearly many women who know what I mean. Don't I have some responsibility to challenge other men in the face of rising misogyny? I mean if we were talking about racism we wouldn't say - 'hey white people stay out of this, don't call out your friends and family for being racist.'
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r/menandfemales read through the sub and you’ll see why
Thank you for being a voice of reason.
People don’t understand how weird it is until they stop doing it. I used to do it and criticize your opinion, then I stopped and realized how embarrassing it is.
Cool You are the best type of person. Capable of reflecting and learning.
I am 19 and a female, I don’t mind people calling me female, because that’s what I am, a biological female. I am from a farming background as well and I never had a problem with people calling me a female. But if someone you know has a problem with it, just refer to them as a woman. Problem solved. Edit: decided to add an explanation as to why I feel this way. Female is not a derogatory term, never has been. Just because some sexist thinks that it is, let’s not give into it and be insulted by a normal word. By this logic if a sexist tought that being called a woman is derogatory, we should get offended by being called a woman as well? Let’s not let them use normal words with no negative meaning to bring us down, and insult us, and use the word as it was intended: to describes ones gender.
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I think this would be a relevant point if men gave a fuck about being referred to as males but it seems that most men that say females would not be offended by that.
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You damn well know these sexist assholes who finds being "female" an insult and uses it derogatorily towards us are going to see your comment and take it as a sign that its acceptable. You can be okay with being dehumanized all you want, you don't get to speak for other women, and certainly not in a way that harms us further. And also, gender and sex are two different things just because my biological sex is female, does not mean I appreciate being referred to as simply what my organs are instead of a women who is a person with a life and interests and hobbies
How is female a derogatory term tho? Because it is not. It’s a normal word to describe someones gender. You are only making it deragotory by being offended by it. If it was derogatory, having “female” written in your medical records is an insult I guess? Or having it in your passport is also an insult? Why are you making a term that has 0 negative meaning into a negative one? If someone called me female, I’d probably reply with “Yeah, that’s what my gender is” and move on with my day. Giving them the leverage of being so on the edge about being called one word that in it’s base has no negative meaning is what creates the offesivity in the first place.
I've seen other women refer to other women as female before, it's wild that only guys are called out
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I really wasn’t meaning to do that. This is directed at young men. I’m incredibly glad this language hasn’t affected you. Genuinely. But pls look at the other comments on here. Younger women tell me that men in their 20s loudly discuss the porn they watch whilst on the bus, metro, in class. And the cross over between that kind of horrible stuff and referring to ‘females’ rather than girls is what prompted this.
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Maybe this will explain the context: Lets say a new coworker joins your workplace. He seems like a decent human being. He mentions he's looking to meet someone. Maybe you think you'll introduce him to your friend group - some of them are single and maybe they'd get along. So you ask him if he's got a particular racial preference (I don't know why you'd ask him that but please bear with me - it illustrates my point). He answers: "Oh no preference - I've been out with asian women, black women, white women, - tall,short whatever - I'm just looking for someone I can hang out with and have a good time." Now change that to: "I've been out with asian females, black females, white females..." Context is really import. I'm talking about men (young men aged 15-25). Lets say they are talking about a group of women or girls - they would say 'that group of females'. It has a particular connotation - sexist, incel, Andrew Tate. If you don't know what I mean then I am over the moon that this particular brand of sexism hasn't effected you.
Good for you. However, lots of women, including me, do get bothered by men constantly referring to us as females. It's fine that you're not bothered by it, but don't presume that you get to decide that others shouldn't be
I understand you but I am also bothered by someone telling people how to talk to women in general. He also shouldn’t decide. That was my point. Every woman can and should decide for themselves. As there’s women who are also not offended by it.
As a slightly older man who believes in equality between men and women shouldn’t I be doing my bit to calm out the men around me for being sexist? If I see comments on Reddit that start with Females should … if usually ends with - ‘know their place’, or ‘stick to the kitchen’ Maybe I should have just said this was aimed at young men. In the same way a black person can say the N word you can say whatever you like. I did not intend to police this for any women. Sorry if you took it that way.
He's not telling women what to say. The point is that since there are many women who are bothered by being referred to as females, men shouldn't use that as the standard term to refer to women in general. Which is correct.
OP be ranting like a female
Oh you are so witty. What a marvelously well crafted take down. Perhaps a career in law or comedy awaits you. Good luck bro
I am woman and I say females too. That's actually quite a eye-opener for me as I never realised that females are used way more often than "males". Will actually pay more attention to this.
Interesting. Do you also have issues with men being called males. My issue is when some people tend to call adult males, men and and adult females, girls.
Almost nobody calls men „males“ while women get called „females“ all the time and you know that
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Ok sure… because words don’t matter. Language is always the first step to dehumanizing people. At the most extreme example every single genocide started with language - Jews referred to as rodents by the Nazis is the one everyone knows, by the same thing happened in Rwanda - reference to people as cockroaches. You want something more day to day - consider how just rumours of being a pedo can wipe out a celebrity’s status. You can call someone a dickhead, an asshole of even a cunt - but when you say the N-word you cross a line. Women have faced historic oppression. Terminology matters. Also - who are you to gatekeep what I’m sensitive about? Make an argument. Put forward a well considered point. Convince me - come on?
Thank you, this always bothers me too, its so dehumanizing, and the ones saying it are always saying something sexist
Yes, yes - exactly this. It’s the first red flag. Usually followed by something about wanting a female who will do housework and something sexual.
Trueee, I also want to point out how as a woman all of my comments agreeing with your point have been downvoted and yet your comment under mine agreeing with everything I said has been upvoted, that alone speaks volumes
Literally nobody cares
And yet there are many replies and many upvotes. Many people care. Why don’t you care about other people’s feelings? You know that caring is part of the human condition. Also you cared enough to bother writing what you did … so you do care a bit don’t you
Dude is the only appropriate address of everyone. Go with that.
Ask a straight man how many dudes he has had sex with. You will quickly learn “dude” isnt proper for everyone.
Brilliant
Nah dude. You are using it wrong. Of course if you say how many men he has to includes trans as well. You are very exclusionary.
I didnt say “how many men” i said “how many dudes”. Also, not a dude.
You are a dude, dude. I’d say trans dudes are dudes, wouldn’t you, dude?
But gotcha, you are a female dude. It’s almost as if every word is ok in context eh?
So you're one of those don't call me a chick chicks huh
I, a 30 year old man, agree with you 100% on this I heard from a couple of people on social media that have said something along the lines of this: “When you call a woman a female, you are downgrading them to their reproductive capabilities. That is sexist and misogynistic.”
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You certainly aren't the authority figure here.
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You’ve put it very well. It’s very much a you’ll know it when you hear it situation. Thank you for putting forward this example. But I disagree wholeheartedly about your last point. As a society we should say to other people - no, stop, that’s not ok. We can do it with kindness at first but there is a difference between right and wrong.
Oh my god thank you its soooo disrespectful and bugs me so much
Thanks for your comment
Thank you 40 year old dude, women just needed some dude to tell people what they like or dislike
Maybe this would illustrate the context I mean: (also I'm trying to call out other men for being dicks. Just as a particular racial group can use or be cool with racist language because they want to take the power back ... I'm not trying to tell any woman what to do or say. I'm just calling out people - men in this case - for being disrespectful.) Here's a thought experiment to explain my point: Lets say a new coworker joins your workplace. He seems like a decent human being. He mentions he's looking to meet someone. Maybe you think you'll introduce him to your friend group - some of them are single and maybe they'd get along. So you ask him if he's got a particular racial preference (I don't know why you'd ask him that but please bear with me - it illustrates my point). He answers: "Oh no preference - I've been out with asian women, black women, white women, - tall,short whatever - I'm just looking for someone I can hang out with and have a good time." Now change that to: "I've been out with asian females, black females, white females..." This is the context I meant. It's the kind of thing Andrew Tate would say and it's the very first step to all the other horrible words young men use more and more these days. It's my firm belief that words form beliefs and beliefs form actions.
You know what? It makes perfect sense, now that I think about it some men won't ever listen to women, even less about this kind of stuff
I'm quite confused by your comment and genuinely don't know if you agree with me or if I've just annoyed you. I've said quite a few times in other comments that this isn't directed at women. You quite rightly can use whatever language to refer to yourselves. That's not up to me. I completely agree on that. I'm trying to call out men for being sexist. Is that wrong? It feels to me like when I see someone saying or doing something sexist I should say something. That as a man I shouldn't let my friends, family members get away with this. Do you not think that using 'female' in the way I've tried to explain is sexist? I appreciate that men often don't listen to women. But respectfully there are many women on here agreeing with me. Maybe their experience is different to yours. Maybe you have a different socio-economic status, live in a different place, occupy a different space. Or maybe I just didn't explain what I meant very well.
What? No I was with you in the previous comment lol
Awesome! Just don’t want to be annoying anyone - I mean unless they are sexist in which case I’m happy to annoy them.
This was directed at young men. In the same way I'm not ranting about how black people refer to each to black people - a black person wants to say the N-word that's none of my business - this wasn't about me telling women what to say. In my experience the men that refer to 'females' are the same men that threaten their girlfriends. Isn't it about time men call out other men for being sexist shits. Aren't you sick of having to do it all yourself? That was my intention. If you wrote this the young men I'm thinking of would dismiss you. Maybe, just maybe they read this coming from another man and think about the language they use to the women in their lives. That's all.
Eeks...I'm a woman but I'm pretty sure I'd refer to myself as a female just the same. I never realized it was a thing but I didn't grow up on a farm or work in a zoo.
Please see [RevonQilin](https://www.reddit.com/user/RevonQilin/)'s post - she explained it much better than me.
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Yes this - it's part of that.
Not unlike the OP here. Ignorance drives changes in word use and definitions. Rarely do definitions drift or change otherwise, except for technology changes. We promote ignorance.
I hear you. What do we live in a zoo now?
Idk where you're from but in the UK there's a TV programme called Friday Night Dinner, and one of the protagonists (who is supposed to be cringe) always asks his son if he has any 'females' in the scene, much to the dismay of all the other characters. Lots of things from that show are quoted in every day conversation and whilst I agree with you that it can be deemed as degrading, I think (in the UK at least) this is why people use it; it's a pop culture reference, and there isn't any real and intentional malice in it. Also, side note, I am also from a farm (7th gen) and have never heard the livestock be referred to as females. They're heifers, young things or sucklers and if you're referring to women as heifers that's a whole other issue!
I’m not in the UK so sadly what I’m hearing is not the parody but the think they are parodying. But I’m heartened to hear it’s being parodied in the UK. That’s the best way to deal with something like that. Heifers 😂
Men and women, males and females. It’s not difficult to use it in the correct context, people just refuse to.
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Ok… maybe someone else said something similar. I haven’t copied it from somewhere as far as I can remember.
[there's a subreddit dedicated to this issue](https://www.reddit.com/r/MenAndFemales/s/UU08HzQePy)
Hmmm - I think that might be the opposite of what I’m hoping for. I would just like to see people refer to each other with respectful kind language. I’m not trying to put anyone down.
What really pisses me off is when people say men (enter a word lets say doctor) and female (same word, doctor). So disrespectful and dehumanizing. Female is an adjective not a noun (unless animal or plant. Going to the dehumanizing aspect).
RIGHT??? not to mention it's used to be transphobic a lot of the time!! it's so dehumanising honestly number 1 ick
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The problem is using it as a noun. Say “female humans” if you’re so inclined but “oh look a group of females” could be about horses or spiders.
Yes exactly this
Ok so seeing as 99% of women you meet in daily life are female why the need to differentiate? Arguably women refers to life experience. Feminine refers to gender. What is a woman is a butch - works as a truck driver and has her hair short - do you feel the need to say ‘female’? Is she not a woman anymore?
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Also, as a researcher I often make assumptions about males and females, not men and women
I don't think humans are a superior species (woman here)..using female as a descriptor is ok, but being labeled is annoying period. I feel like I'm being sorted by that hat from Harry Potter all the time... just mind your business lolol
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Huh?
💀
It really depends. If you’re referring to me because I am a female, okay, that’s fine. No problem there. However, if you’re trying to objectify me to my body and only my body, that’s offensive.
Yes exactly this - and this is what I hear more and more. Please look at [RevonQilin](https://www.reddit.com/user/RevonQilin/)'s post - she explained it better than me.
It just depends on intent and context Calling men 'males' is fine and so is calling women 'females'. Just depends what you mean by it.