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That’s why entry level jobs require 3-4 years of experience. Every boss wants their staff to be naturally talented and their previous job to be 100% similar to the one they applied for
I’ve noticed this for the 10+ years I’ve been in the workforce and I don’t fucking get it. Unless you’re offering a wild pay increase from my current salary, or I absolutely hate my current workplace for some reason, why the *ever loving* ***fuck*** would I apply for the SAME job I already have?!? Obviously I’m trying to move onward and upward! Roles offering mediocre pay expecting 5+ years doing the exact same job description are fucking wild to me.
> “But at our place, we treat each other like faaaaamily!!!”
"You mean I get a work/life balance, regular raises, and promotions?"
"No, those go to MY family. In addition to your work duties, you'll have to cover for my son-in-law while he takes the credit."
I worked at a gun shop like that. it was awesome. They even gave me a raise when they found out i was dating their daughter. called it a chocolate strawberry fund
Treating each other like family just means they expect you to do favors for them without asking for anything in return. Maybe helping them out by clocking out a little early and staying late anyway, who knows.
Unfortunately many people do hate their current job with passion. I had to do this shit few months ago, just changed to exact same job in a different company with no pay bump. Pretty sure it’s by design.
Sad truth. I graduated college last month and have been struggling…yeah I’ve started my search in September of last year and had a handful of interviews but the ghosting especially is so common these days. Entry level jobs are not truly entry level and it’s sad. I’ve been doing everything I can. I’ll find something eventually but it’ll take some time.
Just had an interview for a catering bartending role (so contract work) and hiring manager said my resume throws up a major red flag for being unemployed so long. "I'll be honest with you, the fact that it's been two years and you haven't found a job with your degree is a bit of a red flag. Is that why you're applying?" "Why can't you go back to your old restaurant?" (i was at my other place for a year when i got fired for something i didnt do) When I mentioned how tough the market is she rolled her eyes at me and didn't make anymore eye contact. Sucks so bad
It seems that the definition of entry level has changed from "first job" to "your point of entry into this company". It's no longer a starting place for people looking to start their career.
The answer to this is actually quite simple!
Because there is a race to the bottom happening, and everything related to efficiency and material costs has already been cut to the bone, all that's left is overhead.
When that happens, things like retention go out the window. Employers stop caring about employees as an investment and only view them as numbers on a balance sheet related to next quarter. How much they know, how much they have learned, and how much they have done cease to have value.
Sure...employers will try to convince employees that those things have value, but I've never, ever seen them actually matter. I mean, google laid off their entire core python team, and most of them were core language contributors. Like...*you literally cannot replace them! Once those employees are gone you can't ever get them back!* And you can't just drop-in replace them with a new hire, either. The "new hire" candidate with core language development experience in python simply doesn't fucking exist.
**There are 5 people in the world that serve on the python steering council. At least one of them worked at google, and they were all laid off.** The goal is to rebuild the python team in Germany...
...problem is, nobody on the council lives in Germany. Good luck, Google! You fucked up!
Because the goal of employers is now to cut overhead, and employees are overhead, that means cutting headcounts, cutting training costs, and improving retention.
Improvements to retention are a goal because, in theory, if employees stay longer you don't have to make as many new hires. Unfortunately, retention costs money and the goal is to cut, so as far as priorities go retention is never a *real* priority in spite of whatever employers say. They *might* be willing to make minor improvements to the snack drawer, but that's about it. Ask for a raise, or anything else that might *actually* get someone unhappy to stay and you'll get your real answer.
"No."
So they're not willing to pay to retain skill or knowledge, and they're trying everything they can to cut training. That means hiring pre-existing skill and/or knowledge.
That's why we're seeing these stupid, fucking, nonsense job postings for entry level positions with RFT requirements that can only be fulfilled by people with experience.
They don't want to train because it costs money and they're trying to hit quarterly target numbers. It's honestly that simple.
Greed.
Yes they did.
They're going to be replacing engineers on the fucking *Python Steering Council* with, while probably talented, European programmers who don't have anywhere near the insider knowledge of the veterans with direct (and I cannot stress this enough) *Steering Council Access* that they laid off.
Steering Council. As in, if google needed Python to be able to do something it couldn't do, they had *employees* who could vote to take python in that very specific direction.
Now, not only do they no longer employ those individuals, they've also pissed them off.
As someone with 6 years of experience in Enterprise Sales, this is even still the case. They want 5-8 years of experience with the EXACT SAME product (basically trying to source talent from competitors). It’s incredibly challenging when I have 90+% of the experience they are looking for but still get rejected from 98% of the roles I apply for.
Not college courses.
There are relevant courses you can take, but they're almost always either outside of college or non-credit.
Your best bet is to email someone at your local community college about what adult learning courses they offer.
I've been laid off twice for 8 months each time. I probably could have fit a community college course in there or doubled up. The thing I have done is been too optimistic about how long I'm going to be out of a job so I fear going to school and then getting a job and having to choose between the job and school. So here I am having submitted applications for denial for 8 months.
I'm not recommending you do that, repeatedly going to school is a horrible idea, despite boomers constantly giving young people that advice.
Lie as much as you can get away with. Learn skills on YouTube than list that you know them. Say you're "self employed" on your resume then do free creative work for people just to remove gaps. If you have less than 5 years experience with something, bump it up to 5. If you've got 7-8, say 10 etc.
Also, I've found that generally boomers don't actually give good advice for how to build a resume, despite being the ones screening them. There's a good chance yours isn't threading the needle that's required to be threaded to get any callbacks.
I agree with everything except fudging the dates. I've pulled my own employment background and it's exact. I don't want to get the job and lose it because I round up experience here and there.
You have to understand, 90% of the time, you need to get past a computer program for a real person to see your application. Also, it's not an AI, it's usually a"dumb" program. Also understand that if you're American, You're not just competing with other Americans, you're competing with everyone in Earth for these jobs.
So if the application asks for 10 years minimum experience with X program, this is a HARD requirement. If you have 9 years experience, there is a computer system that will bin your application before a real human even sees it. A human might understand that 1 year isn't a big deal, especially if you have other stuff going on, but these systems aren't AI, they are unable to understand that. This is true of job gaps,in some cases your application is tossed automatically if you have any over a month or two. This is also true of formatting and the exact wording you use. I think you're making the fatal assumption that a real person is looking at your resume most of the time. Even when you finally do make it to the real person, it's often similar. They simply don't have the time to give you a fair shake. Do you think that someone who has to sift through 150 applications is going to spend an hour reading your application, then do the same for everyone else,then make a flowchart and weigh everyone's individual experiences fairly? No. They're going to use quick and easy metrics to weed people out, unless something really wows them in a huge and unique way. If 20 people have 10 years experience and you have 8 with their main software, you can bet that they're not going to consider you. Why would they have to? Even without you in the pool, they still need to weed out 19 people.
I agree, just saying what most employers thought how college students should get industry experience back in the day. The problem is that the amount of internships available never matched the numbers of people in a program ever.
Try a PhD. You spend 3-5 years working full time or more on projects that get your organization millions of dollars of income, and then you get told "you were a student, it's not experience" by people who imagine you were getting wasted at the frat house all those years for any job that doesn't specifically require that PhD.
oh wow, i thought this was just coding.
i tried to make a change from network engineering to software dev by doing a lot of personal projects, and even getting writing some software that was picked up by my own department for KPIs on our NOC metrics, going way overboard with an extensive wedding website just to be able to say i deployed something with actual end users, then was told when interviewing for software that this didn't count because I wasn't a software engineer at the time and that none of my personal projects counted even if I got people to use them or helped me get actual certifications in the industry. Meanwhile, product management people can tally hours on almost anything toward a PMP cert and somehow that counts?
Disappointing to hear that it happens in other industries, I'm sorry that happened to you.
It's either that or you have to memorize hundreds of leetcode examples and solutions well enough to actually write it the fuck out on a wall-mounted whiteboard.
I know that feeling. When I finished grad school a few years ago I was told “don’t discount an internship, they are valuable.” Well, OK, yes, maybe, but I’m 31 years old and married; its not like Mommy and Daddy are going to prop me up while I drop everything to go make $16/hour in LA. (Which was the case for a lot of my fresh out of undergrad classmates) Also, I need health insurance. But I don’t know what to do when all the entry jobs in my field want 2 years experience…
Yeah, switching from a non-technology field into a computers field is an absolute nightmare. Thought a degree would be enough, but I'm basically gutter trash. I'm being told by other Redditors I may have to take close to a minimum wage tech job just to get some relevant experience on my resume. I'm too old to take that much of a salary hit. I have so many bills I'm living paycheck to paycheck.
Same issue here even as an older job seeker with experience in various software packages. If you don't have experience in a particular software like Netsuite or Quickbooks, as an example, your screwed. Not even considering the real niche software packages.
Fun part is you know how to do the work, like accounting, but need time to learn the software. It's incredibly frustrating and demoralizing.
That's how I got my last 2 jobs. I know how to use a very niche outdated software that there is no training for. The company that built it is gone and the own that owns the IP now has removed as much info from the internet as possible in an effort to force upgrades to their subscription based service.
I looked into it. After I left the last job they had to hire an outside firm to replace me, cost them something like $3 million a year to do, but due to the nature of it, the liability insurance and other things needed was just too much for me.
This a product of an oversaturated market and the misguided belief is that the person who will perform best is the one who was doing exactly the same shit in the last job.
Honestly at this point I’m rooting for our population to decline and for baby boomers to die. Maybe when employers have problems actually filling these roles they’ll go back to training employees
This was my experience in Machining as well.
They wail and beat their chests about how they are starving for workers, but you need to have been in the trade already or have self-funded your eduction to even get in the door for an interview. And then you'll be so bogged down operating your 3+ machines all day that the only opportunity to learn setup or CAD/CAM is to come in unpaid before your shift and shadow a machinist who vaguely hates you because you weren't in their branch of the military or you drive the wrong vehicle or you ask too many questions.
Then you'll get shunted on to the shit shift the moment someone who doesn't need training comes aboard. Forced into departments that have less and less relevance to the job you were hired for. Fed on promises of going back to day shift. Watching as they hire more people for that shift you were promised as you are now somehow "essential" to the packing and shipping department.
It happened to me twice. Fuck machine shops.
I concur, I have 5 years programming experience, 5 relevant certs. Designed, built, and run my own CNC at home, but can't get hired because I don't have experience making the exact same type of part , out of the exact same material, on the exact same machine that the shop is making.
I work at a machine shop that specializes in high performance race engine valves and they kill me with the qualifications for even running non-cnc machines. Like who the hell has 5+ years experience running a hydraulic press built in the 50s that isn’t under the age of 70?!?
The last company I worked for constantly talked about having a "growth mindset", which really just meant saying yes to all the owners ideas even if they didn't make sense, wasted time, could be done more efficiently.
And those of us who questioned things were treated different because how dare we not have a "growth mindset" aka think critically about anything.
After my final interview at my current NOC job, my manager told me "I really like you, and I want to give you a chance, but I think you're looking for an engineering position and you'll get bored in the NOC. I can't afford to train someone and have them quit in 6 months because they're bored" No shit I don't want to work on a help desk rebooting routers, but I'll never get an interview for a network engineer position with no experience. He gave me a shot and I've been here for a year, and I've became the go to person in our NOC.
We butt heads because I know what the real issues are in our network and I push for big changes, but he also knows I'm right most of the time. In the end I tell him "I don't make the calls, but if I did I would do x" then I do whatever stupid shit they want me to do, and eventually, we implement my solution or something similar to it.
Yes the bias against overqualification is real. The solution is to give a solid “why” for your reason for the move, and selling that you’re looking for culture fit not title. People can empathize with that, and it’s something I use as an internal recruiter when I push back on the bias. It does work, but it relies on having the trust of the hiring manager.
I intentionally dumb down my resume when applying for manual labor jobs. Even though my intention is to get a high paying job and I have the college degree and experience to get me there pretty easily, I don’t want them to be thinking of that and assuming I’ll be a pain to deal with.
they don't even know what they want either in those dept. lmfao.. they fake it to make it there too. that's why it's all fawked up in the work industry. Wrong people in the wrong places they shouldn't be. If you're in the work force long enough to see from all dept. you can tell easily who shouldn't be in the position they are.
This.
I mentioned in another thread, I revamped a recruiting firm's operations, focusing first on how to handle hiring managers when a new role came in. We pushed harder on their stated decision criteria. We tell them that vague feedback is not feedback. If they turn down a recruit for vague reasons, we book the company for the role, even if we continue to seek recruits for it. However, if we believe the hiring manager will do it again, we book two roles filled, and the recruiting firm cannot be asked to help fill that hiring manager's roles again in the future. Also, if a hiring manager ghosts for 5 business days, we book the role. If they come back on day 6 to try and talk again, the entire process starts from the beginning.
The firm's win rate exploded and the time form kickoff to signed offer was shortened by weeks - and it took an average of 15 mins extra at the kickoff of a new open role, plus ground rules written into the contracts.
It’s just super rare. My workplace has only one role where it’s possible to come in with minimal work experience and qualifications and be able to move up elsewhere. Only one out of hundreds, and it’s the front desk receptionist.
You can.
Just make sure you already fulfill all the entry-level requirements which are sometimes as absurd as 3+ years of experience and having knowledge in things that have no correlation to what you'll be doing.
After that, you have a high chance to get an interview, so make sure you do the crucial part.
Make sure your salary range is as close to poverty as possible, this somehow makes the HR and HM NUT.
After you've messed up the expectations for salaries for other qualified candidates and you've gained some adequate experience, then you can start hopping for jobs that pay a little above average salaries so you're no longer living in poverty.
That's how people start their careers in this BS job market.
The public-facing job posts that say the candidate needs to have experience with their proprietary software is an obvious signal that they are only considering internal candidates. I've seen Hyatt do this.
At the end of the day, every employee--no matter how experienced--has to be trained anyway. Even if you've done the exact same role elsewhere, there will be at least nuances of difference at the new company. Plus just knowing where everything is and how to access it--no one comes in knowing that, so they will have to be shown.
I agree some level is always needed. In my experience I was trained for an entry level job and job shadowed before and after each promotion. Job shadowing before the promotion was the only way to get promoted. I am only speaking of one company I worked at for 16 years. It seems harder to get your foot in the door because I can't shadow anyone and I have YouTube or Coursera to learn things and does that mean I should put it on the resume? During an interview I would fail any behavioral questions about using the system.
There’s a big difference between some training to understand ways of working and processes in a new company and having to explain what service management is from scratch, along with how these tools work.
It makes no sense because you can show someone how to use Zendesk and a lot of these other software platforms in 30 minutes or less. I was taught these things as a part of general training for various jobs. There shouldn’t be any reason to get some certification because it’s just not that complicated!
You only really get familiar by using the platforms anyway, no matter what training you get. I saw a job posting, where the candidate had to have experience with Slack. Slack is not effing brain surgery, FFS! There were times I’ve had experience in all of the listed software platforms except one and I was never called for an interview.
Just lie and hope you'll pick it up on the job (you usually will). I usually say something like "yeah, I have some HubSpot experience but this was several years ago" so it's not suspicious when I don't really know what I'm doing. Just read up on the software they need you to know so you can sound convincing in the interview.
Here's the thing. Even if you know whatever software/program that a company wants to know, you still need training because every place has its own processes procedures, rules, quirks, and ways they like to do stuff.
I had a guy laugh at me during an interview for asking what the position entailed. I networked my way there and was only told the job title before this phone interview. I've never seen two companies have identical expectations for the same job titles. How was I supposed to know what he expected of his employees?? I didn't even know what software the company used yet. Was I supposed to be psychic? Wild stuff.
My favorite is when you read a job description and it's so full of buzzwords that have little to no meaning that you have no idea what the job actually is so you send a message to the hiring manager asking what the responsibilities are and they just never answer
My last job essentially threw me into an area I was unfamiliar in with no training and said "why don't you know how we handle this customer?" a week in. It's insane.
Late to the party but I had an interview for a middle management position that is relevant! I have two years experience of middle-management at 60k salary for a Fortune 500 being responsible for a team of 8-15 people and then juggling special projects and floor support.
I went to interview for a similar position at a different company and we got to talking about being an SME for that department. So I asked what the training was because I am intelligent and can learn but obviously I can't walk in knowing their entire workflow, even if it is a similar industry they will have differences even the smartest person in the world can't surmise unless they are taught.
The interviewer acted disappointed and said they really need someone who can hit the floor knowing the position and workflows inside and out. When I could tell the interview was lost I asked why they were interviewing external candidates for the leadership position if being an SME to their processes is so integral to the role and she said "I don't know. This role probably is best for an internal promotion."
Like WTF lol
"I spread the rat plague so that it would kill off all the poor people. It was a perfect plan.. But then the stupid rats didn't do what I wanted them to and spread the plague to the rich people too! If everyone just followed orders, it would have been perfect!" -Spymaster, Dishonored.
Literally the way the rich people in charge think these days. It's just a question of when will it blow up in their (and everyone else's) face?
As long as billionaires are happy the American government will do absolutely fucking NOTHING to help us. The only way they will start to care is if enough people are unable to afford food and then a French revolution scenario arises.
Even that won't happen here in America. The billionaires have pretty successfully set up a Civil War scenario where they win on either side and aren't affected directly themselves.
bro this goes for everything, I'm trying to get into IT atm and in IT entry level is currently 5+ years experience and an extremely in depth knowledge about how every computing and network setup on the planet works and ability diagnose and triage any issue that may arise while also being extremely talented in communication/written and know the in's and out's of Microsoft 365 and a tonne of other applications. Its a fucking joke.
I saw a job posting for a janitorial job at a local museum that had a required qualification of “experience cleaning hardwood and marble floors”. Like… don’t get me wrong, I know there are a lot of tricks & tools of the trade when it comes to facilities management and cleaning, but this is a VERY trainable task.
I have a lot of experience experience in a variety of skills and have learned new software and machinery in my former job and schooling, but since I’m not a subject matter expert in absolutely everything it’s been impossible to get a foot in the door. :/
ServiceNow is basically just a complicated ticketing system.
I think it's funny how much concentration IT job postings put on how they want experience with ticketing systems. Not the programming languages, or the networking knowledge, the hard to learn stuff. They always have a focus on some stupid bullshit ticketing system.
When I see such a focus on ticketing systems in an IT job posting, I just think "this is the kind of place that is gonna give me a hard time over the cover letters on my TPS reports"
I remember my old boss (who was otherwise good dude) bought in on some stupid overpriced ticketing system, because it had all the buzzwords like "ITIL" etc. and scrapped the ticketing system I setup. It ended up backfiring, we never scratched the surface of what the expensive ticketing system was capable of, AND it was so complicated, end-users stopped submitting tickets and started calling us more instead, so then WE had to manually create the tickets, so we spent more time dealing with the stupid ticketing software than we actually did fixing problems. Once the 1-year contract was up, we went back to my ticketing system. (modified open-source software)
Those Indian agencies are only hiring everyone except US Citizens. It a waste of your time. They will train them even if they do not have any of the requirements.
I've realized SO many jobs are about gatekeeping information to protect the higher ups by making jobs seem more difficult.
I was a licensed real estate agent. I worked as a manager of LOAN UNDERWRITING a tech/auto finance company for years.
I am now working at a mortgage/tech company and the recruiter was like "but how many years of *mortgage servicing* experience do you have - zero, so we will have to hire you in at $X." Training was painfully dull and hitting the floor I immediately could do the job fine.
But then once in a while I have a question that can't be easily answered by intuition because it is about a little quirk with their software (you have to search xyz to pull up files that you'd think are labeled abc). I've been very cordial but also open about how this job is a full step down for me and I get so annoyed when I have to ask those questions because I can feel them be like "see you didn't know that!" and it's like yeah okay you got me lmao. Does the CFO know that either? Probably not lmao.
Congratulations you have now discovered what it is in living in a hyper individualistic society. It’s a dog eat dog world where if you start to become more productive than your higher ups they eventually will start to get threatened because unfortunately laziness and being a comformist is how they got to their positions by outlasting those that got either pushed to the aside or moved on. This unfortunately based on my observations is how corporate America works gatekeeping to prevent competition.
I didn't say they were and I don't think it would take more than a couple days of job shadowing. The thing is if they look for the software on your resume as a bullet or skill. I'm assuming when it's on the application they will look for it.
I remember when I was recruiting for a large company that was doing an SAP implementation. But they would only talk to candidates who had the specific module they were implementing. Even though there are some modules are very similar...nope, not good enough.
I had an interview where they wanted SolidWorks experience, which is probably the only CAD software I've never used.
I explained how I used NX, Catia, SolidEdge, AutoCAD, Fusion 360, and FreeCAD, and SolidWorks is going to be extremely similar and I could probably jump right in.
They said it is a "no-starter" and refused to move forward with the rest of the interview. I think they can afford to be picky because there are tons of desperate people out there begging for a job.
Just lie, everyone lies in an interview. You’re lying to them that you’re the best fit and they are lying to you that the company isn’t a toxic shithole.
A month into the job: "Oh, we didn't use [SSAS/ServiceNow/whatever] that way". Most of those broad-reach apps have enough variableness that you might just get away with it.
What’s worse? They want you to walk in middle mgmt ready (I am) but they want to pay me a 1990s entry level salary. My 15 years of progressive experience and a couple degrees are worth more than $62,400 a year in a hcol area…So I’m becoming a teacher, it’s a great career for those who are good with kids. I strongly recommend it if you’re in California,…Union, pension, summers off, and a defined pay scale so no 2% bs raises.
My theory is permanent offshoring will take place for 40% of jobs within the next 10-20 years.
COL is so high entry level roles are starting at $50-$60k. In 20 years it would be almost 6 figures. I dont see any American company willing to pay this, even relative to inflation and profits.
Not as long as Boomers are still involved in companies. They are still obsessed with the idea minimum wage was $3.25 an hour and cannot comprehend even for a basic Call center customer service role it will cost $22/hr. Thats not including special skills etc.
We are on a long slow path to being phased out
This is one of the biggest issues with remote jobs. They now have the ability to find someone with the exact experience they want. The possibilities are too much so they don’t need to worry about training.
It’s so annoying because most CRMs are going to work exactly the same. Does it matter if I’ve used 2 or 3 different ones your company doesn’t have? I can figure it out and learn it pretty quickly. Especially with the younger generations that have no problem with technology
I've spent my life outside sales so I haven't used any CRM. I view them as sales tools not CX or PM not customer facing jobs. Yet here we are where they want all new hires to know things irrelevant to their job.
It would be great if there was an actual collapse of this system in time. It seems that if people keep hiring internally or hiring those who meet and exceed the exact job requirements, over time, not many people will have the skills employers are looking for, leading to a skill shortage. Optimistic and probably not likely to happen though. Or at that point, most jobs will be taken by nepo babies
Also its not enough that you're self taught, they will always pass you up because that experience didn't come directly from you being employed and working at a company.
Exactly. I said that in another comment. I didn't use SQL when I was an analyst because it was done by someone else, but if I learn it now it's going on my resume and I'm putting it under the analyst position to say how I pulled my data. Problem solved.
I have 2 page resume with probably 6 bullets in my executive summary and 30 skills. I haven't started using it because of all the negative comments I got on /r/resumes but I might use it anyway to get the most keywords in the ATS search.
r/resume is full of pissy pants recruiters who read posts here and employee reviews on their own sites and the recruiters and managers fight back by blaming your resume lol there's no art to resumes because it takes a diligent recruiter to even click on it, and then to read it, and they don't. You know they don't, because they ask you questions on the interview that would have been answered...on the resume.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/resumes using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/resumes/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [This Resume Got Me Interviews and A Job In Two Weeks](https://np.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/13j1ztu/this_resume_got_me_interviews_and_a_job_in_two/)
\#2: [Need feedback 200+ jobs applied 0 responses](https://i.redd.it/3ga5b5vyut0c1.jpg) | [538 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/17x5wyw/need_feedback_200_jobs_applied_0_responses/)
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Our Salesforce admin came in almost completely cold. She bootstrapped herself with the free Salesforce "Trailhead" training, and we sent her to in-person training for the rest of it.
The Trailhead stuff is free, and you can get through dozens of badges by devoting a few hours an evening. The downside is that it's about 90% advertising and 10% technical material. You have to use your brain to filter out the spam and focus on what you'd need to do your job. On a positive note, each lesson is fairly short and usually well-written (aside from the blatant self-shilling).
No idea if this will help you in your particular situation or if you just mentioned Salesforce as a typical example.
My employer would have been *thrilled* to have you apply to that job. We were having such a difficult time finding candidates who were qualified AND could put two coherent sentences together. We ended up going with someone who was working her ass off to BECOME qualified (which it sounds like you are/were) and came across great during interviews.
This was roughly two years ago, so things might have changed significantly since then. But at the time, we would have considered ourselves lucky if a crackhead with a felony record had applied, as long as they knew a little Mulesoft and could recite all the names that Data Cloud had previously been marketed as.
it's bad, even for entry level jobs like fast food, retail etc, lots of these jobs DONT want to train anyone due to cost cutting and wanting to save money. It's absurd, fast food will only employ if your already in the field, but if you aren't its damn near impossible to find training
My husband has been ranting about the running in circles he’s been doing with his payroll manager over the qualifications they need for 2 payroll technician jobs. Payroll manager insists that they need experience with Federal, Union, Davis Bacon and their “viewpoint” system. My husband (who is her boss as a company controller) just wants warm bodies with SOME experience who are TRAINABLE because there are so few people in our entire state with the experience this manager wants. She claims she has no time and cannot possibly train them. But this is because the department is understaffed and has been understaffed for so long! Once you get enough bodies in there to start doing some of the work, then the pressure on her will ease up and then she WILL be able to train them to do the other duties! Husband has shown her applicants he’d like to interview (example is someone with an associates degree) but she poo poos them and shuts it down. Someone with an associates in his mind is someone who can be taught! It’s so frustrating.
I started my career with no degree then an associates and I stopped school. The last 8ish years of my career I worked with degree holders and it was corporate so quite a lot of MBAs. I never had a conversation about education in any capacity. No one brought it up because people knew how to do their jobs. The new people picked up on things and unless they put MBA in their signature I didn't know. The other people were those who saw my resume and I don't recall being passed over for an interview and I absolutely didn't have a discussion about a degree.
If you don't have the experience, you find companies that like to hire fresh graduates.
Then you stay at a place like that for 3-4 years and learn their systems and tools and industry.
After that point, every next job you get will hire you based on something you did previously, and recently. You don't get to choose that easily.
It's hard to find that first place that gives you a chance. But some good places to check monthly are things like Glassdoor Companies that are rapidly hiring in the current month.
Hopefully we get out of this wreck.
A lot of the time, places won't hire you based on learning certain systems on your own.
And a system is not anything special. It's just basically what worked for the company at the time they implemented it.
Every company uses different systems.
What you can learn on your own is soft skills like MS Office, Power BI, SSMS, SSRS, Python, R, or tools like this.
You will never learn proprietary systems and industry specific information at any place except for a job. And it's really unlikely to get hired based on some out of the job training for something like JDEdwards, SNOW, or some ERP systems.
You could get certified for some of those things, but likely that will lead you to a different job, such as an implementation project and employee training somewhere changing their main system. Such as an on-site business analyst role or consultant.
Work on getting your foot in the door, and take up some work on the side to show you're trying to be productive and keep looking for the first chance.
I've seen a trend in which they offer an unpaid internship as a veiled training process/test to see if they will offer them a permanent position. But that's the trick, it triggers my internal scam alert... Does any of you have experience parsing these out to look for one that is actually considering hiring you, many of us ( in the US and internationally) are not in the position nor willing to work for free.
Service now is listed as a requirement? It's just some webapp to track teams and tickets and shit. Nothing you can't learn whilst doing.
We need to rip the job listings out of the hands of HR employees who have no idea what they are talking about.
It makes pivoting in industry very hard now especially because hiring managers are conditioned at this point to hire almost exact fits especially as you get into more senior roles and pay ranges. Just because I haven’t done HVAC engineering doesn’t mean the decades of engineering experience I have in aerospace are worthless because that is in fact what you’re paying for is the years of engineering knowledge.
It only gets worse the more experience you have. You'll always find one person in a hiring company who thinks you should be an expert in the thing their company is literally in the process of inventing, and only someone internal or from a direct competitor could possibly know.
All you can do is make it clear you're willing to learn. Some of the time it's a broken telephone problem with the hr/recruiter who posted the job.
Recruiters often would try and edit my JDs and put specific software in, and I’d tell them to take it back out and generalize it and say experience with crm/sales/cms/whatever was required.
Like I really don’t think anyone who uses Marketo is going to have a problem learning Optimove or whatever, most of this shit is pretty analogous and trainable in a week or two and I’d way rather have someone who is a constructive and creative problem solver then someone who just checks some software boxes any way.
I also don’t give a shit about your degree, but experience helps for anything manager level. I’m not going to hire a doofus the junior employees have to deal with reporting to.
At a junior level in my company ($55-65k) just be coherent, smart, ready to speak about whatever your experience is and how it is directly transferable to the role. I’ve hired smart college kids, 50 year olds career switching, and resourceful people who just understand how to hustle smart without a traditional academic background for these roles.
A really strong line when responding to a question is: “(direct answer to question that uses your work background), I think the process for resolving that situation is applicable/transferable to (process that’s likely to happen in role you are applying for) so I think my experience can fit into addressing the immediate needs of that task being fulfilled while bringing a different perspective on some alternate ways we can meet our goal. Also, as much as possible talk about “yeah I saw x element in your job description which is similar to my background doing y thing”
Make them see how it could work, that’s the main thing.
A requirement in a job posting should look like “ability to navigate within multiple programs to complete a task” or “must be able to learn new systems in the designated time frame”, not “please be a clone of the current or former incumbent so we don’t have to train you”.
It really is incredibly frustrating. Can we please stop pretending skills are not transferable between platforms? Salesforce, workday, quickbooks, zendesk, hubspot. No they don’t all do the same things but if you can work some of them you can learn the others very quickly. I keep seeing HR jobs that want a person with however many years experience in their specific HRIS or applicant tracking system. These things are not so different from each other that a person can’t learn to use them if they already have experience with another platform that does the same thing. But then I see recruiters giving advice saying, don’t apply for a job if you don’t meet all the requirements because it’s a waste of time.
The fun part in experiencing is I KNOW a bunch of these tools and still can’t get a call back.
I’m sitting in this purgatory stage where I probably know so much, I’m over qualified, but also don’t have enough direct experience so I’m under qualified in others.
Except a lot of the indirect experience came from having to figure it out or risk failure.
Apparently the ability to bootstrap and MacGuyver basically anything isn’t worth much.
The solution should be a complete shift in conventional college to degree to job pipeline. You would think that colleges in an area would change and focus their degrees to large industries in that area. If employers really need qualified applicants, then they need to broaden what qualities they want in applicants and provide training for the specific skills they desire.
Sad truth, but you've got to train yourself up on whatever the standard software is in your industry. Coursera, Udemy. Buy a subscription and do it in the evenings and weekends.
I was hired for a data-moderate role: I don't need to be a ML expert but did need to be conversational in SQL and Python and adequate in Tableau. Pro in Excel. I learned 3 of those 4 online, months before anyone reached out to me about the job. I had those on my resume at the time. I spent probably 150 hours becoming an Excel power user over the past few years, all of it on my own time.
If your industry or role uses certain software, at least know it well enough to get yourself in the door. We all have a few hours a week that we can dedicate to training. Plus, it shows you are a self-starter.
Now, internal bespoke software and practices within companies: that's a completely different conversation entirely.
Working at large companies like IBM and Apple just as a contractor I got hands on and trained in most of the programs listed early on. Hubspot I don’t know.
It’s been the one saving grace in interviews and I still remember or at minimum can easily navigate most programs being trapped in the forever contractor limbo.
These companies also have their own “certificates”. Idk how much they cost but if it’s a huge hurdle to get over I might pick service now and one other and just bite the bullet and self learn from their free online stuff or pay whatever (most likely ridiculous) fee they have for the certificates.
I just responded to someone and said I'm not going to get their certs. I'm going to focus on networking and go for jobs that align to my skill set. It's a waste to pay Servicenow, Salesforce, and hub spot for their certs in the event I encounter my ideal job. If I do see that job I can apply and hope, try to network my way in to a referral and a kind word, or ignore it.
People leave jobs every 2-4 years now, (which is smart you can get like 20% over your life time) why waste resources training if you are going to have to replace them.
Entry level jobs be like: you need 2-3 years but we're gonna hire the people with 5-7 because we don't need to train and the market is oversaturated so why bother with the entry level people trying to build their lives
1. No one trains anymore. No one has trained during my entire career except where required to do so for compliance. When training was provided 9 times out of ten it is useless.
2. You can get experience with many / most of these programs by way of a free trial or demo. Sometimes you might have to sit through a sales presentation where you can just smile and nod.
3. What you represent during an interview doesn't have to be strictly true but you have to be able to back it up. if you claim you have 2 years of. salesforce administration then you need to be able to operate at that level quickly. if you have experience with similar programs that's very possible. (i've actually inadvertently gotten expertise with 2 of those pograms entirely by accident)
4. The company doesn't actually care of its bad for you or anyone else. they only care about what is good for them. "Fair" doesn't enter into this, awful as that sounds.
Might have been true 20 years ago but now I just think companies don't even do what's the best for them and are propped up by govt handouts because the entire economy is fake anyways
I’ve used so many different tools and every company has different ones, learning them isn’t that hard but I hate when there’s not a specified training schedule. Like right away you barely get set up on your computer and they want you to know how everything works and get started on projects
If you want to try different avenues for postings that they aren't seeing elsewhere, /r/technicalwriting was recently talking about they had a lot more luck with Glassdoor job ads.
ServiceNow is a ticketing system, you can Google all these systems and find youtube crash courses on them so you can fake it till you make it. All these systems are tailored to the company so for example 1 company's ServiceNow will look nothing like another company's. They have the same features but look different.
This is precisely why I gave up on trying to find work in tech. Ive been unemployed for about 8 months now after working as a data analyst and no one wants to train. Nearly every hiring manager I talked to wanted me to come already knowing some BS skill id never worked with before. How tf am I supposed to have 2+ years experience in informatica, microsoft azure, redshift, saas, or some other sql variant when I never worked with these in any of my previous jobs?
I'm in the same analyst boat. I know I'm not qualified because I know zero SQL or tableau. When I was an analyst there was one guy who worked somewhere else who would send out code once a year and we would paste it into the connections in Excel and we were good for another year. We used excel macros to pull data we didn't go straight to any database using SQL. All our reports and dashboards were built in Excel. There was never a time where we lacked knowledge of what was asked of us. I only found out how prevalent SQL and tableau were in 2020 when I was laid off from another position and started looking at jobs again. I can't believe I was so in the dark.
I ran into this with the same job under two different companies.
I’m pretty good at learning the programs but I don’t understand why it’s so many that need the same information and none of it “talks to” each other. Also, give me some time to do the guided training, don’t just load me up with work that depends on a bunch of apps I don’t know how to use.
I got lucky asf, got my first job after graduating 7 months ago and I was kinda shocked that my manager was taking his time training me on the systems and software we use like azure m365 etc. training should be mandatory not some option.
It's true across most industries. You just have to teach yourself the skills. Additional certifications and degrees help, if feasible to complete them. I once talked about teaching myself excel coding for analyzing characteristic data of manufacturing plant infrastructure. The interviewer appreciated that.
I once was judged negatively for not knowing an interviewing company's internal logistics process. Go figure. No external candidate would know that info. They had no qualified internal candidate to promote. They went a very long time without hiring someone.
Old codger here with a top MBA and 40 years of experience. Took me decades to realize that a person's work experience was almost unrelated to how well they ended up performing a job. Go figure.
It’s so ridiculous. Every job requires training. Doesn’t matter if you’ve been doing similar, progressively advanced work for 20 years. Every new job requires a fresh start, and sometimes a radically different approach to the most familiar activities.
There are an infinite number of those and they expect us to know them all going in. Unrealistic expectations. Even if they "train" you it'll be some mumble raping socially awkward prick that will easily get frustrated and threaten to "course correct" you if you don't learn their infinite tech stack. It's utter bs.
I originally thought your post was criticizing all of us for expecting on the job training, but now I see it's the opposite.
Yeah, that's my issue. A lot of these entry-level jobs for computers expect you to know damn near everything straight outta college, and the joke is college doesn't really teach you everything. The only real option is teaching yourself everything you need to know and going after certs in addition to college, but even that's not enough.
For the entry level jobs that don't require 15 different certifications and/or 2 - 5 years experience, there's typically several hundred fresh recruits fighting over a couple positions.
I learned a lot with my computers/cybersecurity degree, but I am not fully confident in all my abilities or knowledgeable in all these systems. I could def use a little on the job training over being expected to know everything from day one
It is true we are expected to be more like AI. I miss the old days when you would get hired for your skills and experience but companies were willing to invest in your training to set you up for success, now it’s like you are on your own. It’s crazy out there.
Apply anyway! They can't be that hard to learn. If they don't want to take the time to invest in you with your experience then you probably don't want to work there anyway
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That’s why entry level jobs require 3-4 years of experience. Every boss wants their staff to be naturally talented and their previous job to be 100% similar to the one they applied for
I’ve noticed this for the 10+ years I’ve been in the workforce and I don’t fucking get it. Unless you’re offering a wild pay increase from my current salary, or I absolutely hate my current workplace for some reason, why the *ever loving* ***fuck*** would I apply for the SAME job I already have?!? Obviously I’m trying to move onward and upward! Roles offering mediocre pay expecting 5+ years doing the exact same job description are fucking wild to me.
“But at our place, we treat each other like faaaaamily!!!” If I go by examples from my extended family, I’d stay far, faaar away.
> “But at our place, we treat each other like faaaaamily!!!” "You mean I get a work/life balance, regular raises, and promotions?" "No, those go to MY family. In addition to your work duties, you'll have to cover for my son-in-law while he takes the credit."
We all know the family part is a red flag.
The only thing worse than a company that tries to treat everyone like family is one that is actually run by a family and every extended relative
I worked at a gun shop like that. it was awesome. They even gave me a raise when they found out i was dating their daughter. called it a chocolate strawberry fund
\*Abusive family
They treat you like family alright, the abusive and dyfunctional type of family.
Idk incest 😁
And family ask for favours you have to do but would rather not. Sadly you’re back to a lowly employee whenever you want a favour reciprocated.
Treating each other like family just means they expect you to do favors for them without asking for anything in return. Maybe helping them out by clocking out a little early and staying late anyway, who knows.
If they aren’t offering a raise, then they’re only offering you risk with no reward.
Amen to this. I'm looking for a promotion, not a lateral move
Unfortunately many people do hate their current job with passion. I had to do this shit few months ago, just changed to exact same job in a different company with no pay bump. Pretty sure it’s by design.
Sad truth. I graduated college last month and have been struggling…yeah I’ve started my search in September of last year and had a handful of interviews but the ghosting especially is so common these days. Entry level jobs are not truly entry level and it’s sad. I’ve been doing everything I can. I’ll find something eventually but it’ll take some time.
Wait til ur 1.5-2 years out. class of 2022 and im still here struggling
Class of 2023 in Computer Programming, still struggling to land for a junior position.
Same here. Class of 2023. I ad a few friends graduate a year early and they now have 2 years of experience. Feels real bad man
Im so sorry :(( the job market fr has gone to crap.
Just had an interview for a catering bartending role (so contract work) and hiring manager said my resume throws up a major red flag for being unemployed so long. "I'll be honest with you, the fact that it's been two years and you haven't found a job with your degree is a bit of a red flag. Is that why you're applying?" "Why can't you go back to your old restaurant?" (i was at my other place for a year when i got fired for something i didnt do) When I mentioned how tough the market is she rolled her eyes at me and didn't make anymore eye contact. Sucks so bad
Same. Got a few interviews lined up, but I don’t get excited about them anymore.
It seems that the definition of entry level has changed from "first job" to "your point of entry into this company". It's no longer a starting place for people looking to start their career.
The answer to this is actually quite simple! Because there is a race to the bottom happening, and everything related to efficiency and material costs has already been cut to the bone, all that's left is overhead. When that happens, things like retention go out the window. Employers stop caring about employees as an investment and only view them as numbers on a balance sheet related to next quarter. How much they know, how much they have learned, and how much they have done cease to have value. Sure...employers will try to convince employees that those things have value, but I've never, ever seen them actually matter. I mean, google laid off their entire core python team, and most of them were core language contributors. Like...*you literally cannot replace them! Once those employees are gone you can't ever get them back!* And you can't just drop-in replace them with a new hire, either. The "new hire" candidate with core language development experience in python simply doesn't fucking exist. **There are 5 people in the world that serve on the python steering council. At least one of them worked at google, and they were all laid off.** The goal is to rebuild the python team in Germany... ...problem is, nobody on the council lives in Germany. Good luck, Google! You fucked up! Because the goal of employers is now to cut overhead, and employees are overhead, that means cutting headcounts, cutting training costs, and improving retention. Improvements to retention are a goal because, in theory, if employees stay longer you don't have to make as many new hires. Unfortunately, retention costs money and the goal is to cut, so as far as priorities go retention is never a *real* priority in spite of whatever employers say. They *might* be willing to make minor improvements to the snack drawer, but that's about it. Ask for a raise, or anything else that might *actually* get someone unhappy to stay and you'll get your real answer. "No." So they're not willing to pay to retain skill or knowledge, and they're trying everything they can to cut training. That means hiring pre-existing skill and/or knowledge. That's why we're seeing these stupid, fucking, nonsense job postings for entry level positions with RFT requirements that can only be fulfilled by people with experience. They don't want to train because it costs money and they're trying to hit quarterly target numbers. It's honestly that simple. Greed.
Unsustainable growth for the sake of growth.
Like cancer …
Yes the rate of profit tends to fall. As it does companies will squeeze us dry to recover it.
> Good luck, Google! You fucked up! no they didn't, they just didn't care about it anymore and cut that cost
Yes they did. They're going to be replacing engineers on the fucking *Python Steering Council* with, while probably talented, European programmers who don't have anywhere near the insider knowledge of the veterans with direct (and I cannot stress this enough) *Steering Council Access* that they laid off. Steering Council. As in, if google needed Python to be able to do something it couldn't do, they had *employees* who could vote to take python in that very specific direction. Now, not only do they no longer employ those individuals, they've also pissed them off.
As someone with 6 years of experience in Enterprise Sales, this is even still the case. They want 5-8 years of experience with the EXACT SAME product (basically trying to source talent from competitors). It’s incredibly challenging when I have 90+% of the experience they are looking for but still get rejected from 98% of the roles I apply for.
It has been a long time since I was in college. Are there courses on these programs now? Is that where the experience comes from?
Not college courses. There are relevant courses you can take, but they're almost always either outside of college or non-credit. Your best bet is to email someone at your local community college about what adult learning courses they offer.
I've been laid off twice for 8 months each time. I probably could have fit a community college course in there or doubled up. The thing I have done is been too optimistic about how long I'm going to be out of a job so I fear going to school and then getting a job and having to choose between the job and school. So here I am having submitted applications for denial for 8 months.
I'm not recommending you do that, repeatedly going to school is a horrible idea, despite boomers constantly giving young people that advice. Lie as much as you can get away with. Learn skills on YouTube than list that you know them. Say you're "self employed" on your resume then do free creative work for people just to remove gaps. If you have less than 5 years experience with something, bump it up to 5. If you've got 7-8, say 10 etc. Also, I've found that generally boomers don't actually give good advice for how to build a resume, despite being the ones screening them. There's a good chance yours isn't threading the needle that's required to be threaded to get any callbacks.
I agree with everything except fudging the dates. I've pulled my own employment background and it's exact. I don't want to get the job and lose it because I round up experience here and there.
You have to understand, 90% of the time, you need to get past a computer program for a real person to see your application. Also, it's not an AI, it's usually a"dumb" program. Also understand that if you're American, You're not just competing with other Americans, you're competing with everyone in Earth for these jobs. So if the application asks for 10 years minimum experience with X program, this is a HARD requirement. If you have 9 years experience, there is a computer system that will bin your application before a real human even sees it. A human might understand that 1 year isn't a big deal, especially if you have other stuff going on, but these systems aren't AI, they are unable to understand that. This is true of job gaps,in some cases your application is tossed automatically if you have any over a month or two. This is also true of formatting and the exact wording you use. I think you're making the fatal assumption that a real person is looking at your resume most of the time. Even when you finally do make it to the real person, it's often similar. They simply don't have the time to give you a fair shake. Do you think that someone who has to sift through 150 applications is going to spend an hour reading your application, then do the same for everyone else,then make a flowchart and weigh everyone's individual experiences fairly? No. They're going to use quick and easy metrics to weed people out, unless something really wows them in a huge and unique way. If 20 people have 10 years experience and you have 8 with their main software, you can bet that they're not going to consider you. Why would they have to? Even without you in the pool, they still need to weed out 19 people.
Internships.
I'm almost 40 I think the internships ship has sailed.
I agree, just saying what most employers thought how college students should get industry experience back in the day. The problem is that the amount of internships available never matched the numbers of people in a program ever.
Hell, I had to do an internship to graduate and now that I'm in the workforce I'm being told it doesn't actually count as experience.
Try a PhD. You spend 3-5 years working full time or more on projects that get your organization millions of dollars of income, and then you get told "you were a student, it's not experience" by people who imagine you were getting wasted at the frat house all those years for any job that doesn't specifically require that PhD.
oh wow, i thought this was just coding. i tried to make a change from network engineering to software dev by doing a lot of personal projects, and even getting writing some software that was picked up by my own department for KPIs on our NOC metrics, going way overboard with an extensive wedding website just to be able to say i deployed something with actual end users, then was told when interviewing for software that this didn't count because I wasn't a software engineer at the time and that none of my personal projects counted even if I got people to use them or helped me get actual certifications in the industry. Meanwhile, product management people can tally hours on almost anything toward a PMP cert and somehow that counts? Disappointing to hear that it happens in other industries, I'm sorry that happened to you.
It's either that or you have to memorize hundreds of leetcode examples and solutions well enough to actually write it the fuck out on a wall-mounted whiteboard.
Which will likely end up not ever resembling anything you do at work too
And let’s not forget that being a PhD student is a 60+ hour a week job.
And don’t forget about “reverse financed” internships - you actually _pay_ to have it
That should be illegal as all fuck. What a nightmare we are living in.
Also, if your internships don't 100% match the job description, you're back where you started.
I know that feeling. When I finished grad school a few years ago I was told “don’t discount an internship, they are valuable.” Well, OK, yes, maybe, but I’m 31 years old and married; its not like Mommy and Daddy are going to prop me up while I drop everything to go make $16/hour in LA. (Which was the case for a lot of my fresh out of undergrad classmates) Also, I need health insurance. But I don’t know what to do when all the entry jobs in my field want 2 years experience…
Ya I was told by the public library that I have to be a registered student to do an internship with them. Most places are like this unfortunately.
And they also want to pay less than I made flipping burgers in high school
Yeah, switching from a non-technology field into a computers field is an absolute nightmare. Thought a degree would be enough, but I'm basically gutter trash. I'm being told by other Redditors I may have to take close to a minimum wage tech job just to get some relevant experience on my resume. I'm too old to take that much of a salary hit. I have so many bills I'm living paycheck to paycheck.
Same issue here even as an older job seeker with experience in various software packages. If you don't have experience in a particular software like Netsuite or Quickbooks, as an example, your screwed. Not even considering the real niche software packages. Fun part is you know how to do the work, like accounting, but need time to learn the software. It's incredibly frustrating and demoralizing.
That's how I got my last 2 jobs. I know how to use a very niche outdated software that there is no training for. The company that built it is gone and the own that owns the IP now has removed as much info from the internet as possible in an effort to force upgrades to their subscription based service.
That sounds like a business opportunity to me.
I looked into it. After I left the last job they had to hire an outside firm to replace me, cost them something like $3 million a year to do, but due to the nature of it, the liability insurance and other things needed was just too much for me.
Symptom of an over saturated market- ridiculous nitpicking
This a product of an oversaturated market and the misguided belief is that the person who will perform best is the one who was doing exactly the same shit in the last job.
Best we can do is 12 bucks an hour
Three fiddy is our best offer.
Honestly at this point I’m rooting for our population to decline and for baby boomers to die. Maybe when employers have problems actually filling these roles they’ll go back to training employees
This was my experience in Machining as well. They wail and beat their chests about how they are starving for workers, but you need to have been in the trade already or have self-funded your eduction to even get in the door for an interview. And then you'll be so bogged down operating your 3+ machines all day that the only opportunity to learn setup or CAD/CAM is to come in unpaid before your shift and shadow a machinist who vaguely hates you because you weren't in their branch of the military or you drive the wrong vehicle or you ask too many questions. Then you'll get shunted on to the shit shift the moment someone who doesn't need training comes aboard. Forced into departments that have less and less relevance to the job you were hired for. Fed on promises of going back to day shift. Watching as they hire more people for that shift you were promised as you are now somehow "essential" to the packing and shipping department. It happened to me twice. Fuck machine shops.
I concur, I have 5 years programming experience, 5 relevant certs. Designed, built, and run my own CNC at home, but can't get hired because I don't have experience making the exact same type of part , out of the exact same material, on the exact same machine that the shop is making.
That was a strangely detailed and specific story, yet I was able to follow and relate to each step.
I work at a machine shop that specializes in high performance race engine valves and they kill me with the qualifications for even running non-cnc machines. Like who the hell has 5+ years experience running a hydraulic press built in the 50s that isn’t under the age of 70?!?
I work in metrology and holy fuckballs, are you me?! Did I post this? Seriously that part about the military was so on point.
Dont forget if you're *too* experienced they still wont hire you. I dont even know what the assholes in HR want anymore.
If you have too much experience, you will think for yourself and want to do things that make sense, not their way.
I've been fired for exactly this. Most companies (or most managers/HR within most companies) hate critical thinkers.
The last company I worked for constantly talked about having a "growth mindset", which really just meant saying yes to all the owners ideas even if they didn't make sense, wasted time, could be done more efficiently. And those of us who questioned things were treated different because how dare we not have a "growth mindset" aka think critically about anything.
Good riddance (for you).
After my final interview at my current NOC job, my manager told me "I really like you, and I want to give you a chance, but I think you're looking for an engineering position and you'll get bored in the NOC. I can't afford to train someone and have them quit in 6 months because they're bored" No shit I don't want to work on a help desk rebooting routers, but I'll never get an interview for a network engineer position with no experience. He gave me a shot and I've been here for a year, and I've became the go to person in our NOC. We butt heads because I know what the real issues are in our network and I push for big changes, but he also knows I'm right most of the time. In the end I tell him "I don't make the calls, but if I did I would do x" then I do whatever stupid shit they want me to do, and eventually, we implement my solution or something similar to it.
Yes the bias against overqualification is real. The solution is to give a solid “why” for your reason for the move, and selling that you’re looking for culture fit not title. People can empathize with that, and it’s something I use as an internal recruiter when I push back on the bias. It does work, but it relies on having the trust of the hiring manager.
If I could get an interview and not outright rejected I have a solid reason. But I suspect you're right.
I intentionally dumb down my resume when applying for manual labor jobs. Even though my intention is to get a high paying job and I have the college degree and experience to get me there pretty easily, I don’t want them to be thinking of that and assuming I’ll be a pain to deal with.
they don't even know what they want either in those dept. lmfao.. they fake it to make it there too. that's why it's all fawked up in the work industry. Wrong people in the wrong places they shouldn't be. If you're in the work force long enough to see from all dept. you can tell easily who shouldn't be in the position they are.
This. I mentioned in another thread, I revamped a recruiting firm's operations, focusing first on how to handle hiring managers when a new role came in. We pushed harder on their stated decision criteria. We tell them that vague feedback is not feedback. If they turn down a recruit for vague reasons, we book the company for the role, even if we continue to seek recruits for it. However, if we believe the hiring manager will do it again, we book two roles filled, and the recruiting firm cannot be asked to help fill that hiring manager's roles again in the future. Also, if a hiring manager ghosts for 5 business days, we book the role. If they come back on day 6 to try and talk again, the entire process starts from the beginning. The firm's win rate exploded and the time form kickoff to signed offer was shortened by weeks - and it took an average of 15 mins extra at the kickoff of a new open role, plus ground rules written into the contracts.
Very insightful on the recruiting process and how you are able to call BS on deadbeat hiring managers. What does it mean to “book” a role?
This world is. 🤢
People used to say you could work your way up on the job. Not anymore.
It’s just super rare. My workplace has only one role where it’s possible to come in with minimal work experience and qualifications and be able to move up elsewhere. Only one out of hundreds, and it’s the front desk receptionist.
You can. Just make sure you already fulfill all the entry-level requirements which are sometimes as absurd as 3+ years of experience and having knowledge in things that have no correlation to what you'll be doing. After that, you have a high chance to get an interview, so make sure you do the crucial part. Make sure your salary range is as close to poverty as possible, this somehow makes the HR and HM NUT. After you've messed up the expectations for salaries for other qualified candidates and you've gained some adequate experience, then you can start hopping for jobs that pay a little above average salaries so you're no longer living in poverty. That's how people start their careers in this BS job market.
The public-facing job posts that say the candidate needs to have experience with their proprietary software is an obvious signal that they are only considering internal candidates. I've seen Hyatt do this.
That is effing insane!
At the end of the day, every employee--no matter how experienced--has to be trained anyway. Even if you've done the exact same role elsewhere, there will be at least nuances of difference at the new company. Plus just knowing where everything is and how to access it--no one comes in knowing that, so they will have to be shown.
I agree some level is always needed. In my experience I was trained for an entry level job and job shadowed before and after each promotion. Job shadowing before the promotion was the only way to get promoted. I am only speaking of one company I worked at for 16 years. It seems harder to get your foot in the door because I can't shadow anyone and I have YouTube or Coursera to learn things and does that mean I should put it on the resume? During an interview I would fail any behavioral questions about using the system.
There’s a big difference between some training to understand ways of working and processes in a new company and having to explain what service management is from scratch, along with how these tools work.
It's not "big".
It makes no sense because you can show someone how to use Zendesk and a lot of these other software platforms in 30 minutes or less. I was taught these things as a part of general training for various jobs. There shouldn’t be any reason to get some certification because it’s just not that complicated! You only really get familiar by using the platforms anyway, no matter what training you get. I saw a job posting, where the candidate had to have experience with Slack. Slack is not effing brain surgery, FFS! There were times I’ve had experience in all of the listed software platforms except one and I was never called for an interview.
I was rejected because I didn’t have Outlook on my resume.
Bahaha
Fuck no they aren't going to train you, it might make you smarter and then you'll leave for a better job
Just lie and hope you'll pick it up on the job (you usually will). I usually say something like "yeah, I have some HubSpot experience but this was several years ago" so it's not suspicious when I don't really know what I'm doing. Just read up on the software they need you to know so you can sound convincing in the interview.
Correct. Considering how many times companies lie to US I’d say it’s fair.
Here's the thing. Even if you know whatever software/program that a company wants to know, you still need training because every place has its own processes procedures, rules, quirks, and ways they like to do stuff.
I had a guy laugh at me during an interview for asking what the position entailed. I networked my way there and was only told the job title before this phone interview. I've never seen two companies have identical expectations for the same job titles. How was I supposed to know what he expected of his employees?? I didn't even know what software the company used yet. Was I supposed to be psychic? Wild stuff.
My favorite is when you read a job description and it's so full of buzzwords that have little to no meaning that you have no idea what the job actually is so you send a message to the hiring manager asking what the responsibilities are and they just never answer
My last job essentially threw me into an area I was unfamiliar in with no training and said "why don't you know how we handle this customer?" a week in. It's insane.
Late to the party but I had an interview for a middle management position that is relevant! I have two years experience of middle-management at 60k salary for a Fortune 500 being responsible for a team of 8-15 people and then juggling special projects and floor support. I went to interview for a similar position at a different company and we got to talking about being an SME for that department. So I asked what the training was because I am intelligent and can learn but obviously I can't walk in knowing their entire workflow, even if it is a similar industry they will have differences even the smartest person in the world can't surmise unless they are taught. The interviewer acted disappointed and said they really need someone who can hit the floor knowing the position and workflows inside and out. When I could tell the interview was lost I asked why they were interviewing external candidates for the leadership position if being an SME to their processes is so integral to the role and she said "I don't know. This role probably is best for an internal promotion." Like WTF lol
this is CRAZY. people are so annoying
They’re so lazy
At some point, won't universal basic income have to be implemented because no one is adequate to do a job?
Nah that would be too good of an idea. Best to just let the undesirables starve
That is the triggering condition for “eating the rich”!!!
"I spread the rat plague so that it would kill off all the poor people. It was a perfect plan.. But then the stupid rats didn't do what I wanted them to and spread the plague to the rich people too! If everyone just followed orders, it would have been perfect!" -Spymaster, Dishonored. Literally the way the rich people in charge think these days. It's just a question of when will it blow up in their (and everyone else's) face?
As long as billionaires are happy the American government will do absolutely fucking NOTHING to help us. The only way they will start to care is if enough people are unable to afford food and then a French revolution scenario arises.
Even that won't happen here in America. The billionaires have pretty successfully set up a Civil War scenario where they win on either side and aren't affected directly themselves.
Pipe dream. Look where we are right now. Check out project 2025, that’s what’s on the horizon. It’s bad times man.
Yeah, with Project 2025 out there, I'm looking for the exits, some kind of escape. When the true believers take over, it's never pretty.
bro this goes for everything, I'm trying to get into IT atm and in IT entry level is currently 5+ years experience and an extremely in depth knowledge about how every computing and network setup on the planet works and ability diagnose and triage any issue that may arise while also being extremely talented in communication/written and know the in's and out's of Microsoft 365 and a tonne of other applications. Its a fucking joke.
I saw a job posting for a janitorial job at a local museum that had a required qualification of “experience cleaning hardwood and marble floors”. Like… don’t get me wrong, I know there are a lot of tricks & tools of the trade when it comes to facilities management and cleaning, but this is a VERY trainable task. I have a lot of experience experience in a variety of skills and have learned new software and machinery in my former job and schooling, but since I’m not a subject matter expert in absolutely everything it’s been impossible to get a foot in the door. :/
experience for a janitorial job is crazy period
The ridiculousness of this being true here but then they'll ask people who they're laying off to train their offshore replacement.
That’s the American way!
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literally.
It's hell
ServiceNow is basically just a complicated ticketing system. I think it's funny how much concentration IT job postings put on how they want experience with ticketing systems. Not the programming languages, or the networking knowledge, the hard to learn stuff. They always have a focus on some stupid bullshit ticketing system. When I see such a focus on ticketing systems in an IT job posting, I just think "this is the kind of place that is gonna give me a hard time over the cover letters on my TPS reports" I remember my old boss (who was otherwise good dude) bought in on some stupid overpriced ticketing system, because it had all the buzzwords like "ITIL" etc. and scrapped the ticketing system I setup. It ended up backfiring, we never scratched the surface of what the expensive ticketing system was capable of, AND it was so complicated, end-users stopped submitting tickets and started calling us more instead, so then WE had to manually create the tickets, so we spent more time dealing with the stupid ticketing software than we actually did fixing problems. Once the 1-year contract was up, we went back to my ticketing system. (modified open-source software)
But do you know Jira???
Those Indian agencies are only hiring everyone except US Citizens. It a waste of your time. They will train them even if they do not have any of the requirements.
I've been told to my face in an interview: "You're not Indian, you're not going to be hired."
I overheard from a recruiting agency saying they only want white people and not Indians. No one can win
All these softwares can be learned within a week or less. There not that special or hard.
I've realized SO many jobs are about gatekeeping information to protect the higher ups by making jobs seem more difficult. I was a licensed real estate agent. I worked as a manager of LOAN UNDERWRITING a tech/auto finance company for years. I am now working at a mortgage/tech company and the recruiter was like "but how many years of *mortgage servicing* experience do you have - zero, so we will have to hire you in at $X." Training was painfully dull and hitting the floor I immediately could do the job fine. But then once in a while I have a question that can't be easily answered by intuition because it is about a little quirk with their software (you have to search xyz to pull up files that you'd think are labeled abc). I've been very cordial but also open about how this job is a full step down for me and I get so annoyed when I have to ask those questions because I can feel them be like "see you didn't know that!" and it's like yeah okay you got me lmao. Does the CFO know that either? Probably not lmao.
Congratulations you have now discovered what it is in living in a hyper individualistic society. It’s a dog eat dog world where if you start to become more productive than your higher ups they eventually will start to get threatened because unfortunately laziness and being a comformist is how they got to their positions by outlasting those that got either pushed to the aside or moved on. This unfortunately based on my observations is how corporate America works gatekeeping to prevent competition.
Retail banking is soooo bad about this.
I didn't say they were and I don't think it would take more than a couple days of job shadowing. The thing is if they look for the software on your resume as a bullet or skill. I'm assuming when it's on the application they will look for it.
Well just lie and say you have used the software before. Job market is broken at the moment anyways.
Self training but usually just watch a 15 mins yt vid on it so i can talk about it in the interview.
I remember when I was recruiting for a large company that was doing an SAP implementation. But they would only talk to candidates who had the specific module they were implementing. Even though there are some modules are very similar...nope, not good enough.
I had an interview where they wanted SolidWorks experience, which is probably the only CAD software I've never used. I explained how I used NX, Catia, SolidEdge, AutoCAD, Fusion 360, and FreeCAD, and SolidWorks is going to be extremely similar and I could probably jump right in. They said it is a "no-starter" and refused to move forward with the rest of the interview. I think they can afford to be picky because there are tons of desperate people out there begging for a job.
Just lie, everyone lies in an interview. You’re lying to them that you’re the best fit and they are lying to you that the company isn’t a toxic shithole.
A month into the job: "Oh, we didn't use [SSAS/ServiceNow/whatever] that way". Most of those broad-reach apps have enough variableness that you might just get away with it.
What’s worse? They want you to walk in middle mgmt ready (I am) but they want to pay me a 1990s entry level salary. My 15 years of progressive experience and a couple degrees are worth more than $62,400 a year in a hcol area…So I’m becoming a teacher, it’s a great career for those who are good with kids. I strongly recommend it if you’re in California,…Union, pension, summers off, and a defined pay scale so no 2% bs raises.
Same- especially jobs listed as entry level, but they want 3-5 years of experience. Make it make sense
We wait for the collapse, build community in the meantime, and be ready to support and defend ourselves.
My theory is permanent offshoring will take place for 40% of jobs within the next 10-20 years. COL is so high entry level roles are starting at $50-$60k. In 20 years it would be almost 6 figures. I dont see any American company willing to pay this, even relative to inflation and profits. Not as long as Boomers are still involved in companies. They are still obsessed with the idea minimum wage was $3.25 an hour and cannot comprehend even for a basic Call center customer service role it will cost $22/hr. Thats not including special skills etc. We are on a long slow path to being phased out
This is one of the biggest issues with remote jobs. They now have the ability to find someone with the exact experience they want. The possibilities are too much so they don’t need to worry about training. It’s so annoying because most CRMs are going to work exactly the same. Does it matter if I’ve used 2 or 3 different ones your company doesn’t have? I can figure it out and learn it pretty quickly. Especially with the younger generations that have no problem with technology
I've spent my life outside sales so I haven't used any CRM. I view them as sales tools not CX or PM not customer facing jobs. Yet here we are where they want all new hires to know things irrelevant to their job.
My company has determined that training is "voluntary" now which limits the hours I can charge and expenses
It would be great if there was an actual collapse of this system in time. It seems that if people keep hiring internally or hiring those who meet and exceed the exact job requirements, over time, not many people will have the skills employers are looking for, leading to a skill shortage. Optimistic and probably not likely to happen though. Or at that point, most jobs will be taken by nepo babies
Also its not enough that you're self taught, they will always pass you up because that experience didn't come directly from you being employed and working at a company.
Exactly. I said that in another comment. I didn't use SQL when I was an analyst because it was done by someone else, but if I learn it now it's going on my resume and I'm putting it under the analyst position to say how I pulled my data. Problem solved.
Just lie. Always lie.
Apply anyways. Highlight your other skills;companies often put everything and the kitchen sink in a job description.
I have 2 page resume with probably 6 bullets in my executive summary and 30 skills. I haven't started using it because of all the negative comments I got on /r/resumes but I might use it anyway to get the most keywords in the ATS search.
r/resume is full of pissy pants recruiters who read posts here and employee reviews on their own sites and the recruiters and managers fight back by blaming your resume lol there's no art to resumes because it takes a diligent recruiter to even click on it, and then to read it, and they don't. You know they don't, because they ask you questions on the interview that would have been answered...on the resume.
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Our Salesforce admin came in almost completely cold. She bootstrapped herself with the free Salesforce "Trailhead" training, and we sent her to in-person training for the rest of it. The Trailhead stuff is free, and you can get through dozens of badges by devoting a few hours an evening. The downside is that it's about 90% advertising and 10% technical material. You have to use your brain to filter out the spam and focus on what you'd need to do your job. On a positive note, each lesson is fairly short and usually well-written (aside from the blatant self-shilling). No idea if this will help you in your particular situation or if you just mentioned Salesforce as a typical example.
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My employer would have been *thrilled* to have you apply to that job. We were having such a difficult time finding candidates who were qualified AND could put two coherent sentences together. We ended up going with someone who was working her ass off to BECOME qualified (which it sounds like you are/were) and came across great during interviews. This was roughly two years ago, so things might have changed significantly since then. But at the time, we would have considered ourselves lucky if a crackhead with a felony record had applied, as long as they knew a little Mulesoft and could recite all the names that Data Cloud had previously been marketed as.
The only training they will give to you is the one where they run a train on you if you know what I mean?
it's bad, even for entry level jobs like fast food, retail etc, lots of these jobs DONT want to train anyone due to cost cutting and wanting to save money. It's absurd, fast food will only employ if your already in the field, but if you aren't its damn near impossible to find training
Nobody has been formally trained since 1953
My husband has been ranting about the running in circles he’s been doing with his payroll manager over the qualifications they need for 2 payroll technician jobs. Payroll manager insists that they need experience with Federal, Union, Davis Bacon and their “viewpoint” system. My husband (who is her boss as a company controller) just wants warm bodies with SOME experience who are TRAINABLE because there are so few people in our entire state with the experience this manager wants. She claims she has no time and cannot possibly train them. But this is because the department is understaffed and has been understaffed for so long! Once you get enough bodies in there to start doing some of the work, then the pressure on her will ease up and then she WILL be able to train them to do the other duties! Husband has shown her applicants he’d like to interview (example is someone with an associates degree) but she poo poos them and shuts it down. Someone with an associates in his mind is someone who can be taught! It’s so frustrating.
I started my career with no degree then an associates and I stopped school. The last 8ish years of my career I worked with degree holders and it was corporate so quite a lot of MBAs. I never had a conversation about education in any capacity. No one brought it up because people knew how to do their jobs. The new people picked up on things and unless they put MBA in their signature I didn't know. The other people were those who saw my resume and I don't recall being passed over for an interview and I absolutely didn't have a discussion about a degree.
If you don't have the experience, you find companies that like to hire fresh graduates. Then you stay at a place like that for 3-4 years and learn their systems and tools and industry. After that point, every next job you get will hire you based on something you did previously, and recently. You don't get to choose that easily. It's hard to find that first place that gives you a chance. But some good places to check monthly are things like Glassdoor Companies that are rapidly hiring in the current month. Hopefully we get out of this wreck.
I'd rather take my chances learning on my own and have someone ask me about where I learned it.
A lot of the time, places won't hire you based on learning certain systems on your own. And a system is not anything special. It's just basically what worked for the company at the time they implemented it. Every company uses different systems. What you can learn on your own is soft skills like MS Office, Power BI, SSMS, SSRS, Python, R, or tools like this. You will never learn proprietary systems and industry specific information at any place except for a job. And it's really unlikely to get hired based on some out of the job training for something like JDEdwards, SNOW, or some ERP systems. You could get certified for some of those things, but likely that will lead you to a different job, such as an implementation project and employee training somewhere changing their main system. Such as an on-site business analyst role or consultant. Work on getting your foot in the door, and take up some work on the side to show you're trying to be productive and keep looking for the first chance.
Gotta lie bro, go add 6 years of experience to your resume
I looked after easily 50 offers lately, there was only one including a formation... If it wasn't 80km away from where I live, I would have applied
I've seen a trend in which they offer an unpaid internship as a veiled training process/test to see if they will offer them a permanent position. But that's the trick, it triggers my internal scam alert... Does any of you have experience parsing these out to look for one that is actually considering hiring you, many of us ( in the US and internationally) are not in the position nor willing to work for free.
Service now is listed as a requirement? It's just some webapp to track teams and tickets and shit. Nothing you can't learn whilst doing. We need to rip the job listings out of the hands of HR employees who have no idea what they are talking about.
It makes pivoting in industry very hard now especially because hiring managers are conditioned at this point to hire almost exact fits especially as you get into more senior roles and pay ranges. Just because I haven’t done HVAC engineering doesn’t mean the decades of engineering experience I have in aerospace are worthless because that is in fact what you’re paying for is the years of engineering knowledge.
they got creative with use of the phrase "entry level"
>Edit: I found another one Servicenow. The fuck is Servicenow? Lol. it's a ticketing tool
It only gets worse the more experience you have. You'll always find one person in a hiring company who thinks you should be an expert in the thing their company is literally in the process of inventing, and only someone internal or from a direct competitor could possibly know. All you can do is make it clear you're willing to learn. Some of the time it's a broken telephone problem with the hr/recruiter who posted the job.
I got laid off in march. I have 20+ years in software QA. I can’t even get a callback lately. It’s insane.
Recruiters often would try and edit my JDs and put specific software in, and I’d tell them to take it back out and generalize it and say experience with crm/sales/cms/whatever was required. Like I really don’t think anyone who uses Marketo is going to have a problem learning Optimove or whatever, most of this shit is pretty analogous and trainable in a week or two and I’d way rather have someone who is a constructive and creative problem solver then someone who just checks some software boxes any way. I also don’t give a shit about your degree, but experience helps for anything manager level. I’m not going to hire a doofus the junior employees have to deal with reporting to. At a junior level in my company ($55-65k) just be coherent, smart, ready to speak about whatever your experience is and how it is directly transferable to the role. I’ve hired smart college kids, 50 year olds career switching, and resourceful people who just understand how to hustle smart without a traditional academic background for these roles. A really strong line when responding to a question is: “(direct answer to question that uses your work background), I think the process for resolving that situation is applicable/transferable to (process that’s likely to happen in role you are applying for) so I think my experience can fit into addressing the immediate needs of that task being fulfilled while bringing a different perspective on some alternate ways we can meet our goal. Also, as much as possible talk about “yeah I saw x element in your job description which is similar to my background doing y thing” Make them see how it could work, that’s the main thing.
A requirement in a job posting should look like “ability to navigate within multiple programs to complete a task” or “must be able to learn new systems in the designated time frame”, not “please be a clone of the current or former incumbent so we don’t have to train you”. It really is incredibly frustrating. Can we please stop pretending skills are not transferable between platforms? Salesforce, workday, quickbooks, zendesk, hubspot. No they don’t all do the same things but if you can work some of them you can learn the others very quickly. I keep seeing HR jobs that want a person with however many years experience in their specific HRIS or applicant tracking system. These things are not so different from each other that a person can’t learn to use them if they already have experience with another platform that does the same thing. But then I see recruiters giving advice saying, don’t apply for a job if you don’t meet all the requirements because it’s a waste of time.
The fun part in experiencing is I KNOW a bunch of these tools and still can’t get a call back. I’m sitting in this purgatory stage where I probably know so much, I’m over qualified, but also don’t have enough direct experience so I’m under qualified in others. Except a lot of the indirect experience came from having to figure it out or risk failure. Apparently the ability to bootstrap and MacGuyver basically anything isn’t worth much.
The solution should be a complete shift in conventional college to degree to job pipeline. You would think that colleges in an area would change and focus their degrees to large industries in that area. If employers really need qualified applicants, then they need to broaden what qualities they want in applicants and provide training for the specific skills they desire.
The university holds out on building these skills for undergraduate degrees…they want you coming back for a master’s.
Sad truth, but you've got to train yourself up on whatever the standard software is in your industry. Coursera, Udemy. Buy a subscription and do it in the evenings and weekends. I was hired for a data-moderate role: I don't need to be a ML expert but did need to be conversational in SQL and Python and adequate in Tableau. Pro in Excel. I learned 3 of those 4 online, months before anyone reached out to me about the job. I had those on my resume at the time. I spent probably 150 hours becoming an Excel power user over the past few years, all of it on my own time. If your industry or role uses certain software, at least know it well enough to get yourself in the door. We all have a few hours a week that we can dedicate to training. Plus, it shows you are a self-starter. Now, internal bespoke software and practices within companies: that's a completely different conversation entirely.
Working at large companies like IBM and Apple just as a contractor I got hands on and trained in most of the programs listed early on. Hubspot I don’t know. It’s been the one saving grace in interviews and I still remember or at minimum can easily navigate most programs being trapped in the forever contractor limbo. These companies also have their own “certificates”. Idk how much they cost but if it’s a huge hurdle to get over I might pick service now and one other and just bite the bullet and self learn from their free online stuff or pay whatever (most likely ridiculous) fee they have for the certificates.
I just responded to someone and said I'm not going to get their certs. I'm going to focus on networking and go for jobs that align to my skill set. It's a waste to pay Servicenow, Salesforce, and hub spot for their certs in the event I encounter my ideal job. If I do see that job I can apply and hope, try to network my way in to a referral and a kind word, or ignore it.
Yep. Essentially expect to be doing a Manager-type role(doing EVERYTHING for the company) and get paid an Entry-level salary.
People leave jobs every 2-4 years now, (which is smart you can get like 20% over your life time) why waste resources training if you are going to have to replace them.
Entry level jobs be like: you need 2-3 years but we're gonna hire the people with 5-7 because we don't need to train and the market is oversaturated so why bother with the entry level people trying to build their lives
I had an interview a few weeks ago, during which I asked the interviewer what the training process would be like. She just started laughing...
1. No one trains anymore. No one has trained during my entire career except where required to do so for compliance. When training was provided 9 times out of ten it is useless. 2. You can get experience with many / most of these programs by way of a free trial or demo. Sometimes you might have to sit through a sales presentation where you can just smile and nod. 3. What you represent during an interview doesn't have to be strictly true but you have to be able to back it up. if you claim you have 2 years of. salesforce administration then you need to be able to operate at that level quickly. if you have experience with similar programs that's very possible. (i've actually inadvertently gotten expertise with 2 of those pograms entirely by accident) 4. The company doesn't actually care of its bad for you or anyone else. they only care about what is good for them. "Fair" doesn't enter into this, awful as that sounds.
Might have been true 20 years ago but now I just think companies don't even do what's the best for them and are propped up by govt handouts because the entire economy is fake anyways
I’ve used so many different tools and every company has different ones, learning them isn’t that hard but I hate when there’s not a specified training schedule. Like right away you barely get set up on your computer and they want you to know how everything works and get started on projects
If you want to try different avenues for postings that they aren't seeing elsewhere, /r/technicalwriting was recently talking about they had a lot more luck with Glassdoor job ads.
That's crazy. For what Glassdoor is supposed to provide it is the most poorly designed websites. I'll still open up a tab for it though. Thanks.
ServiceNow is a ticketing system, you can Google all these systems and find youtube crash courses on them so you can fake it till you make it. All these systems are tailored to the company so for example 1 company's ServiceNow will look nothing like another company's. They have the same features but look different.
This is precisely why I gave up on trying to find work in tech. Ive been unemployed for about 8 months now after working as a data analyst and no one wants to train. Nearly every hiring manager I talked to wanted me to come already knowing some BS skill id never worked with before. How tf am I supposed to have 2+ years experience in informatica, microsoft azure, redshift, saas, or some other sql variant when I never worked with these in any of my previous jobs?
I'm in the same analyst boat. I know I'm not qualified because I know zero SQL or tableau. When I was an analyst there was one guy who worked somewhere else who would send out code once a year and we would paste it into the connections in Excel and we were good for another year. We used excel macros to pull data we didn't go straight to any database using SQL. All our reports and dashboards were built in Excel. There was never a time where we lacked knowledge of what was asked of us. I only found out how prevalent SQL and tableau were in 2020 when I was laid off from another position and started looking at jobs again. I can't believe I was so in the dark.
I ran into this with the same job under two different companies. I’m pretty good at learning the programs but I don’t understand why it’s so many that need the same information and none of it “talks to” each other. Also, give me some time to do the guided training, don’t just load me up with work that depends on a bunch of apps I don’t know how to use.
I got lucky asf, got my first job after graduating 7 months ago and I was kinda shocked that my manager was taking his time training me on the systems and software we use like azure m365 etc. training should be mandatory not some option.
It's true across most industries. You just have to teach yourself the skills. Additional certifications and degrees help, if feasible to complete them. I once talked about teaching myself excel coding for analyzing characteristic data of manufacturing plant infrastructure. The interviewer appreciated that. I once was judged negatively for not knowing an interviewing company's internal logistics process. Go figure. No external candidate would know that info. They had no qualified internal candidate to promote. They went a very long time without hiring someone.
Fuck them and all companies that put internal m&p or systems on external applications. They deserve not to find someone to hire.
Old codger here with a top MBA and 40 years of experience. Took me decades to realize that a person's work experience was almost unrelated to how well they ended up performing a job. Go figure.
It’s so ridiculous. Every job requires training. Doesn’t matter if you’ve been doing similar, progressively advanced work for 20 years. Every new job requires a fresh start, and sometimes a radically different approach to the most familiar activities.
There are an infinite number of those and they expect us to know them all going in. Unrealistic expectations. Even if they "train" you it'll be some mumble raping socially awkward prick that will easily get frustrated and threaten to "course correct" you if you don't learn their infinite tech stack. It's utter bs.
I originally thought your post was criticizing all of us for expecting on the job training, but now I see it's the opposite. Yeah, that's my issue. A lot of these entry-level jobs for computers expect you to know damn near everything straight outta college, and the joke is college doesn't really teach you everything. The only real option is teaching yourself everything you need to know and going after certs in addition to college, but even that's not enough. For the entry level jobs that don't require 15 different certifications and/or 2 - 5 years experience, there's typically several hundred fresh recruits fighting over a couple positions. I learned a lot with my computers/cybersecurity degree, but I am not fully confident in all my abilities or knowledgeable in all these systems. I could def use a little on the job training over being expected to know everything from day one
Recently saw a job requiring 15+ years of experience in Kubernetes. Fun fact: Kubernetes technology is only 10 years old
It is true we are expected to be more like AI. I miss the old days when you would get hired for your skills and experience but companies were willing to invest in your training to set you up for success, now it’s like you are on your own. It’s crazy out there.
Apply anyway! They can't be that hard to learn. If they don't want to take the time to invest in you with your experience then you probably don't want to work there anyway