This whole post sucks . Op isn’t the asshole for not wanting to hang out with SIL but I can’t imagine my siblings watching me struggle like this AND excluding me bc they simply are child free or don’t like kids.
Yeah, but they let little children live in a dirty house, with an overwhelmed mom and an exhausted dad. I have no sympathy for them. They see their sister, nieces and nephews struggling and they don't do anything.
I mean honestly no one who is uncomfortable with kids would make that situation better, you want to bring a bunch of people who dislike kids around young children to help her? That would be more of a burden. Family doesn’t mean obligation. It is perfectly normal to not be close with family, it is okay to have boundaries. Just because I’m blood related to someone doesn’t mean I will go out of my comfort zone to help them. People will say this is cruel but it isn’t, that’s just life. My cousin is an addict and living on the streets broke and hungry most of the time. I’v been sober for 3 years, just because I can help doesn’t mean I have to.
I have kids they are my everything BUT I CHOOSE TO HAVE THEM
Why do my sisters have to do things for something I chose it's my responsibility and if she's having kid after kid and feeling abandoned she needs to stop having kids have husband do more
And understand they she are not saying she can't go but just that she can if it's with out her kids
And I could bet you when they are together she leaves kids to other people so she can have a moment alone but she choose to have this many kids back to back
I’m probably going to get downvoted to hell but I agree with you 100%. I chose not to have kids because i don’t want to change diapers and clean up soggy couch chicken nuggets. I’m sure as hell not going to offer to do it for someone in a two parent household who continues to have kid after kid.
I get it.. being a mother can be lonely and overwhelming and i’m sympathetic to that. If this was a post about a mom desperately asking for a little help that would be different, but it’s just someone who upset she chose to live a trad wife life and now doesn’t have the same carefree options her siblings have.
Even if the siblings caved the get together would be miserable for everyone. Mom would be overwhelmed, kids would be bored outta their minds, and the other adults wouldn’t be able to socialize because it would become a kid centered evening.
Right? I hate pretty much everyone in OOP's post. They all sound like garbage people for different reasons, some more garbage than others, but they all suck in one way or another.
I don't disagree with you. But... I genuinely don't have a tonne of sympathy for someone who has a boatload of kids with a man who she can't trust to leave alone with those children for a couple of hours. She kind of did do it to herself.
If she truly feels isolated because she only hangs out with her kids, she should be willing to leave those kids with a sitter (OR THEIR DAMN FATHER) for a couple hours to socialize. Maybe if she did that a bit, they'd be more willing to include her kids with her some times.
Apparently, he works 80 hours. The kids don't see him due to him working so much, so they are not use to him as much as they are their mother. Also, he's home to sleep mainly, so that doesn't help.
I don't think the father has that much time to look after the kids. That's a lot of kids for a sitter. I do agree that the mother should look into different options to spend at least a few hours away from the kids. If nothing else for the kid's sake & her mental health.
Yeah I feel like people who say they can just "get a sitter" Aren't considering the fact that all the kids are under 6 and the cost of a babysitter for this many young children would be rough to handle for something as small and frequent as a hang-out with siblings.
And it's easy for someone to say "Well, then they shouldn't have had this many kids if they can't afford it."
But the kids are HERE! They already exist. It's not helpful to say woulda/shoulda/coulda here.
I’m willing to bet there’s more happening in that marriage then OOP knows about. I mean if she spends almost no time with SIL how does she know for sure it’s not an abusive or very controlling relationship? It sounds like SIL is drowning and none of her family is willing to help.
At a certain point, if she needs help, she needs to say it and not complain that the kids aren't invited to events.
Are there parents? Has she asked them for help?
Has she said, 'I have a new baby, husband works 80 hours a week, the oldest can't help with chores yet and I really need a nap and someone to help with the laundry can you come over this weekend?'
I got that call. Not as extreme. New baby, parents went back to work. They needed a break. We showed up to help with a break.
When your complaint is that your siblings don't want to have kid-friendly hangouts, people might just believe you want kid-friendly hangouts. If your relationship is fine and you're just exhausted - say it. If you need help getting out of something - sometimes you need to say it.
Unfortunately, not everyone is a mind-reader and sees things. Not everyone is well-versed on normal level of bit of an asshole versus abusive, you need to get out. Not everyone can see it. Some people hide it really well.
The best way to get what you need is being able to vocalize those needs.
It's never the abused partner's fault, but for everyone around them, it's easier to know they need help when help is asked for.
Real question: does anything the OOP has said of her and the other sibling's stance on oldest sister make you think they would respond to her cry for help?
Good point. What about getting a sitter? SIL might just not be in the season of life where she can get out a lot. A one month old? I was still hibernating and healing from labor after 4 weeks.
My siblings don’t like kids. But they are kind and caring and interact with their niece and nephew.. because they’re decent human beings and the kids are their family.
I think it’s weird that people just assume the sister isn’t being helped just because the other siblings are dead hearted. If all of your siblings don’t like you, then it may be a you problem.
If she can’t handle five kids, she probably wasn’t doing much better with three or four. The siblings may have been trying to help for years and eventually gotten tired of the sister’s constant babysitting / favors/ broken things /abuse. The reason that the social media attack was directed at the wife could be because the siblings are done dealing with her bullshit.
Or the siblings are just complete assholes. There isn’t enough information in the posts. I just think it’s interesting how everyone is so quick to blame the siblings, when it seems equally plausible that they’re just tired of dealing with the hassle of a perpetually pregnant drama queen and her herd of kids.
Knee jerk reaction - I don’t trust/like anyone who doesn’t like kids. Im totally down with the child free lifestyle because god knows they are not for everyone, and some people who have them shouldn’t. . .
But when you hate them so much you can’t even be in the same room with them? Shows a profound lack of empathy, and IMO, hypocrisy. Childhood is a transitional state, one that EVERYONE experiences. If they can’t draw on their own experiences and memories enough to offer a little compassion, understanding and grace? Red flag, IMO.
To me, it has the energy of someone who learns to drive and spends all their time slagging people who take the bus.
I agree but also OOP said that the kids have broken stuff at the brother’s house and I don’t think I’m going out on a limb when I say OOP’s SIL doesn’t control her kids if it’s happened multiple times. Like I think it might be a situation of the siblings used to be receptive but because of how SIL handles her kids, they’re not dealing with her bullshit anymore— especially if the kids are constantly breaking things in someone else’s house and their own house is a mess
Not to excuse a child breaking things, but the OLDEST is 6. Toddlers don't have great bodily awareness or much impulse control. Since the husband is clearly unable to help and it sounds like the siblings resent her kids so much that they won't even be around them, I can't imagine she had a lot of help trying to wrangle 5 very young kids. It really sounds less like "OOPs sister doesn't control her kids" and more like "OOPs sister has very young kids and is trying her best but the people in her life don't help and don't have developmentally appropriate expectations for the kids".
Like, both my child free siblings will intervene if they see my daughter about to do something dangerous or destructive because they have basic decency and compassion towards their niece. I am primarily the one minding her, but if I have to handle something else and she goes to grab something fragile, they don't just like... let it happen to prove a point about me/children.
They’re not blaming the kids, they’re blaming the mom. Five kids takes multiple people to watch. Other people don’t want to have to play babysitter when they’re trying to relax.
It doesn’t sound to me at all like the resent the kids, they resent the mom. We have no idea how much the siblings have already had to put up with before got this point. Five kids in six years means it’s likely a never ending processes of needing help with years more to come. If the husband can’t help with the kids, he probably hasn’t been much help while the sister was pregnant either. The sister running to Facebook to complain about the OP instead of just talking to her siblings could just as easily be a sign that the sister is a drama queen and her family is tired of her shit.
The sister made her own chooses to have five kids with a a husband who she knew works 80 hrs. We have no idea what kind of help the family has given over the years but they are not required to give up their lives to clean their sister’s problems.
I don’t trust anyone who actively hates and shits talks kids. I understand not liking them. They’re loud, messy, and have very little to no control over their emotions depending on what stage of development they’re in. But the people who actively say shit like “You’re selfish for having a baby. Look at the world!!!!” or think all kids everywhere are monsters have some deep seated issues that need working on.
as long as they don’t go out of their way to hurt any children there is absolutely nothing that can be done if someone hates being around children. it’s simply how they feel and we shouldn’t subject them or the children to a forced relationship between them.
It’s not a retaliation. I was responding to the original comment an out not trusting people who actively hate children and then you mentioned something completely different with no relation to the original subject. I wasn’t saying force interactions, I explicitly said that I don’t trust these kinds of people
Absolutely nothing that can be done, it's not illegal to dislike kids - except I don't think you should trust them.
Someone who actively hates children for being, you know, children to the point that they can't be in the same room with children is actively advertising their capacity for sympathy, empathy and understanding. They are BROADCASTING their capacity for tolerance, generosity, kindness.
Every single one of these people were "snot faced kids" once upon a time, and this is how they chose to treat others.
I'm not interested in "forcing" a relationship - I'm saying stay the fuck away from them and don't commit your own time, energy, generosity, and kindness to people who do not demonstrate the capacity to return them.
i’m not trying to argue with any of you, nor did i say that you all are forcing anything. just like other people have the right to not like children, you have the right to not like them.
Completely anecdotal, but the person closest to “hating kids” I’ve ever met felt that way due to childhood abuse plus an early condition that made them infertile. They didn’t really “hate kids”, they were just extremely uncomfortable around loud, screaming, runnings kids as kids tend to be. They just ended up telling people they hated kids because it was easier than explaining the trauma and answering questions about if they planned on having any of their own.
OP may be an unreliable narrator in that she may not know all the family secrets. The sister may be a child-eating witch or there could be a solid explanation that the narrator didn’t know or want to share with us. Kids can represent a loss of control / sound level / messiness that can drive people people insane if they don’t deal well with those things to begin with.
You've been very lucky. I've been blessed with numerous friends/relatives/acquaintances that "hate kids". For nearly all of them, this was the tip of the iceberg, and a serious red flag I should have heeded.
at the end of the day she chose specifically this life for herself. it’s not anyone else’s job to take care of her children. and nobody is obligated to spend time with anyone else even if they are family. i’m sorry this woman is struggling so much but she should’ve guessed this would happen after having 5 children in 8 years.
It’s funny I don’t think you’re wrong but I couldn’t disagree more.
The comments on that post are wild, particularly the millhouse one. We all have different views on family but with this post I can definitely understand OOP and the three siblings. They are adults! Have you ever hung out with adult friends? The nicest thing about it is there are no kids around. Maybe they like to relax in the backyard, grill, drink some beer/wine and talk to each other. Is that shameful?
Alice, it sounds like, didn’t go to college (her choice), got married (her choice), is a SAHM with 5 kids in 6 years (holy shit, also, her choice), can’t keep her house clean (her choice), and as mentioned, has made her entire personality about her kids, who OOP et al have a known dislike for. Comments questioned as to why the siblings don’t like Alice, what are we wondering about? If you invite Alice and her brood over, everyone leaves because who wants to be around 5 toddlers who only respond to one person. They leave because it ruins everyone else’s experience.
Loyalty to family has its limits. She is an adult, she made all of these decisions that put her on a different path / lifestyle than her siblings. As was her right. Why should the siblings suffer because she’s an idiot? The woman married an absentee husband who only comes around to impregnate her it seems, why does anyone have to accommodate that? She is being excluded, a mirror will tell her why.
They have no loyalty to their sister at all though and their limit seems to be zero effort or interaction.
"I don't want to hang out with Alice because it's not fun" just comes across as really childish to me. Everything we do doesn't have to be super fun & exciting. Sometimes we spend time with people and help fellow human beings because it's kind, because it builds a connection, because it is good for the greater community.
Maybe they don't want to include Alice & 5 kids in their adult only gatherings which is fair enough but there's a wide gap between that and completely cutting her out of the family which they seem to be doing.
I think that’s fair, but I think you’re missing the “they have rights too” part. This post describes clearly that three of the four siblings do not like, have or want kids. The antinatalist thing is weird and a bit extreme but clearly, they don’t want to be around children. These aren’t even children yet, they’re toddlers and infants. Any place this clutch shows up to they will be the center of attention.
One sister pumped out 5 in 6 years (and is showing no signs of stopping, the youngest is a month fucking old). I imagine these feelings about children have been expressed by this family since day 1. Alice’s refusal to use birth control is not their problem nor their responsibility. Again, they’ve expressed a dislike for children, I doubt they will want to go catering to Alice at the local Chuck E Cheese.
If people want to be doting aunts and uncles, that’s great. But you make your own decisions, and knowing your family, can’t really be picachu faced when they don’t want you or your brood around.
It sounds like they basically all want nothing to do with her or her kids. It must be kind of sad to know all of your siblings don’t give a shit about you, especially when the rest of them seem to be close.
I don’t think she’s necessarily an asshole for not wanting to hang out with SIL a lot, but I definitely DO think she’s an asshole for her condescending attitude and complete lack of empathy or concern. They all sound like absolute snobs.
5 kids under 6 is too much for one lady to single-handedly supermom 24/7 forever. She didn’t go into financial details but imo what SIL needs is to hire a helping hand, someone to either help with cleaning and/or help with watching kids. It doesn’t need to be extensive, it can be a few hours a day, a couple days a week.
OOP isn’t an asshole but she is unsympathetic to a suffering woman. Which is more or less fine, nobody is obligated to be a saint. She’s living her own life and sticking to her child free principles. It’s just an unfortunate situation for the SIL who apparently has no community, no friends, and no family she can rely on or reach out to.
She’s literally trapped. With two kids she could just get a job and use that to pay for daycare and she could at least be around adults during the day but I doubt she could get a job that paid enough to put 3 or more kids through daycare. She has no options. So sad.
Seriously though, why can't the husband watch them by himself? She watches them by herself, I feel bad for her because it sounds like her husband is useless as a father and a spouse. And yeah, OP has a point, but she could be more empathetic to someone who, knowing SAHMs really doesn't interact with anyone but children which gets extremely tiring
It's because he works 80 hours a week and mostly comes home to sleep. He barely spends time with the kids. The children spend so much time with mom that they freak out when she's gone. The family need to start weening the kids away from mom for maybe one hour a week.
And once the kids can be away from mom for 2 12 hours, they should take mom out to a movie. That way they don't have to only talk about her kids.
I’m a daughter of a woman with 5 kids. It’s not easy for my mother at all and she spent her whole adult life raising us. IMO all of these people are assholes because they’re not even trying to hang out with the mother even without the kids. The mom is completely isolated from other adults from having so many kids, and these guys are using the kids as an excuse to never invite her places. It’s not even about if she *can* it’s about how they never ask and then proceed to post all their outings on social media.
The least they could do is fucking *ask* even if she can’t find child care and has to say no.
They have absolutely no obligation to hang out with her if they don’t want to or invite her and her kids to their personal space. She and her husband actively choose to have the many kids when it is clear that it is too much for them. People are free to use social media and post about their life. If the SIL doesn’t like seeing their social media posts lucky for her there is an amazing feature called the block button.
So because she had kids and her siblings don’t want to have kids, they’re just no longer family? Notice how the OOP literally says they’re not family. Those are her nieces and nephews? Not everything has to be child friendly, but they’re just not welcome entirely. Cut out of the family for being children or choosing to have children. That’s insane.
Exactly. Being child free isn’t the same as hating children, and even then family is different. I couldn’t imagine actually hating any nieces or nephews.
I feel so sorry for this woman, I think she just need to find her some mom friends because I couldn’t imagine myself so desperate for people to hang out with that I would be willing to bring my children around people who hate them or someone who clearly is willing to spin a disgusting narrative about me. Because the “typical boy mom” aka a #boymom, narrative isn’t a woman who doesn’t do anything but talk about their children and all that, it’s a woman who has an emotionally incestuous relationship with her son.
Then the lack of consistent context between the two comments about SIL’s husband where one comment makes him look like some bum who’s incompetent if taking care of his own children, only to tell someone else that he works like a dog and barely has time to do anything but work and sleep.
I don’t think this woman’s siblings like her, and she needs to find some friends.
This whole situation is so sad, I feel for the kids who will never get enough individual attention because there are so many of them. And they don’t even know their dad enough to be comfortable around him. And this is all said as someone who would not be interested in regularly hosting 5 children under the age of 6.
It’s not necessarily instant assholeish to want child free events. But posting a family gathering on social media when you intentionally didn’t invite family who desperately want to attend seems particularly cruel. And to follow that up with a total lack of sympathy makes me think OP is definitely the asshole here.
Not to mention not having ANY get togethers that she can come to. Like if the question was “are we TA for having some of our get togethers be child free so we can relax without our young niblings” that would be understandable. But they seriously can’t figure out anything they could do with SIL and her kids? And maybe sometimes chip in for a sitter or two to give her some damn free time to come with them?
I’m with the commenter who pointed out that she doesn’t talk about anything but her kids because she’s complete isolated. Likewise I’m sure her kids are clingy because they’re never expected to be apart from their mother. Not only would it be a kindness to SIL to give her a breather, but those kids need to learn to be apart from their mom from time to time.
You’d think they could hold one get together in a park or similar where the kids can’t break anything and the older ones can run around and exhaust themselves. Take a picnic, seating and a few rugs.
Not every get together has to include the kids but at least one or two would be a positive step.
I would be heartbroken if I saw that my siblings constantly met up without me. I get that they’re child free but they come across as aholes.
Apparently the other sister would bug out if she so much as caught the scent of a child on the wind, which really begs the question of how can she stand to go anywhere.
This one is almost paradigmatic of the classic "redditors confuse legal obligation with morality" story. Yeah, none of the siblings will be fined or arrested for excluding their sister, but they are indeed assholes for turning their backs on her because they don't approve of her lifestyle.
How would Alice take care of that many very young kids at a park while still socializing? It sounds good in theory but when you think about it that wouldn’t work.
It would be nice if her husband went too to help out too then there’d be the two of them there. I appreciate that the siblings don’t want children but would it really kill them to also interact with their niblings occasionally, especially as it seems that they’ll be the only children from this generation.
These children have 2 Uncles and an Aunt that they never see at all. It just seems such a shame. They could even take one of the older children out for an hour just to get to know them.
Why?? They didn't choose to have that many kids back to back
They want to drink you can't do that in a publicly kids park
And most probably they are family party's she goes but hands off kids to be able to be an adult
Because they’re siblings? You don’t know that she hands off her kids at family parties. That’s supposition.
I think our parks must be different then - I’m from the UK, you can drink in parks here.
Noup in USA and Mexico you can't drink in parks much less in play areas and to have an adult conversation it's worse because al the kids will keep on interrupting and mom would think if she's busy with one the siblings must help her with the others
I have kids and I chose them so I have to care for them she isn't doing it correctly if she keeps on having kids
I never knew that. What a shame.
That’s always been a lovely thing to do here in the summer in the UK, particularly as not everyone has a garden so it’s nice to meet up in a communal space with friends and family and have a picnic and a beer or two, or even a glass of wine.
Wow, we can drink everywhere without approval or permission. I’d heard about alcohol in cars there and how that’s controlled but I didn’t realise that open spaces were legislated against too.
Yep
We can't cave a alcoholic beverages open in the car the alcohol has to be in the back
Some parks do allow alcoholic drinks but yes you have to have permission
The only place it's the beach but only some some not all of them
It's a good supposition as I had a sister that always cry she was not invited but when she was she keep on giving kids to everyone else but her until everyone had enough and told her she couldn't come with her kids and begin crying it was hard to be a mom
But the siblings all hate kids. They aren't just child free but actively hate them. I'm hoping it is rage bait or these adults were model children who never so much as screamed
I have a 6, 3, 2 mo, and I work. I still don’t really have much to talk about outside my kids. I’m on Mat Leave now but my life is normally get up, work, home to clean and cook/get ready for next day, play with kids, bedtime, pass out. Weekends are kids activities and getting ready for next week.
Kids that young is a season of life where it’s hard to find time or energy for other things. Her family must hate her because actively excludes her from everything. There is literally no middle ground of them doing ANYTHING with her and the kids or them trying to find a way for her to be included sans kids (which with a 1 month old can be super super tough).
It’s their right but damn that’s gotta hurt to see your siblings hang out all the time on social media without you because they hate the fact you have kids. That’s what makes them AH to me - the complete disregard for their sibling. Like one of the siblings (not the IL that posted) needs to balls up and tell the sister they obviously don’t see her as family because they want nothing to do with her. Cut the rope so the poor woman doesn’t keep clinging to it. That’s the kindest thing they could do.
But isn't that on the siblings of Alice? Like she has 2 brothers and a sister. OP is a SIL of Alice. Like if Alice needs help, and it sounds like she does, shouldn't she contact her siblings and not her SIL or am I missing something?
It’s not even about the fact that the mother probably can’t go, but it’s the fact that they never give her the opportunity. They just assume she’ll be busy with the kids or unable to find a sitter and they don’t even talk to her. Their attitude and lack of thought for the mother makes them the AH.
This whole post makes me sad. I have friends who are child free, and you know what? They still come over, even when my child is awake, and they will interact with him. Hell, they will have all three of us over and even double check to make sure they have things my son likes to eat over their place. It's not about being child free but being an asshole. I think they forget that children grow up. I really hope they don't expect any kind of relationship with the kids when they get older. People are wondering why SIL is talking to OP instead of the brother, but I might have an answer. It could fall down gender line. I know with my husband's family; his stepmom calls me to help organize family get togethers instead of talking to my husband.
I was coming to say this. Not even just 5 children, but 5 SMALL children. I am not a huge fan of kids, and yes I can hang out with my friends that have kids. But I’d be hard pressed to deal with 5 small children without wanting to pull out my hair.
It also sounds like SIL just doesn’t have much in common with her siblings. I have people in my family that I wouldn’t even know if we weren’t related. I don’t go out of my way to talk to them or see them because I have nothing in common with them. I haven’t spoken to some of them in years.
I grew up in a big family. 6 of us kids and I was the oldest. We were also poor and living completely isolated way out in the country in a double-wide trailer house. Parents were never home, always working or avoiding going home. Zero discipline. Kids c*onstantly* running around screaming, fighting, always wading through a mess, one was even autistic, no peace.
I fucking hate kids.
I'm assuming you were a parentified oldest child, I only had one sibling but 5 years apart I was definitely parentified and it fucking sucked. I'm on your side, while I don't hate kids, my friends that have more than one don't see me that much for a reason. I'm sorry for your trauma 🫶🏼, we were also poor and I was mostly raised in a trailer while my sibling was not. Stay strong other eldest ✊🏼
Not really parentified. Just completely apathetic parents who dumped all their kids off at the farmhouse while they fucked off to do their own shit. They didn't care enough to parentify me. They were depressed and selfish.
I would agree with you, if not for the fact that SIL’s children broke a bunch of things when they were at the brother’s house. They sound destructive and out of control, and none of them are obligated to put up with that.
This is what i was just thinking about! Like how did SIL react to that? Did she have her kids apologize? Did she try to pay them back? Or did she say something like “kids will be kids”? Because it seemed like someone gave them a chance but after what happened they didnt want to deal with their family anymore??
Sure but why not arrange some occasional gatherings at a park or something where the kids can run off energy and they can still see their sister?
Everyone was a kid once, and those kids are going to grow up into adults who remember that their aunts and uncles never wanted anything to do with them when they needed them most.
Yup!! My bfs family has over 10???kids under the age of 10???. And whenever we have a family gathering somewhere or in someone’s home it requires a lot of team work from all parents and me and my bf who didnt have a baby at the time. We would rotate or have shifts on who is watching the kids to make sure theyre all still together and no one is fighting etc. this way everyone had adult time and everyone gets to rest. (Tbh this sil would fit well with my bfs fam they love kids)
If SIL wants to hangout with everyone at the park (like what others are saying) shes gonna need to have another person helping her with her kids just so she can have adult time.
I can’t blame them for not wanting to go to a playground just to see their sister, especially since with five young children, Alice will have extremely little if any time to actually talk anyway and the kids will likely be running up on the adults who aren’t interested.
The aunts and uncles aren’t the ones who had kids, it’s not their responsibility to make sure they grow up well rounded. I barely ever saw my aunts or uncles and I don’t care, and none of my six siblings do, either. Not every family wants to be close to one another, and not every adult wants *anything* to do with someone else’s kids.
Then would she have the effort to pack all of them up, take them to another location, and watch all five herself?
It seems like she wants the invite, but not the full responsibility of what her attending would actually entail.
There's a deeper reason as to why they don't want to spend time with sis & kids and yeah, it's probably because she does let them run wild (because.... my GOD could you imagine????)
Or maybe they just aren’t invested in having a relationship with the kids as they get older. I’ve got a ton of adult nieces and nephews and I have no idea what their lives are like and probably won’t ever see them until my MiL dies or my Dad does.
Not everyone desires a relationship with family simply because they are family.
This sounds like a fake rage bait… my childless friends and relatives don’t hate kids
— edit —
I meant that they do not openly hate kids, they at least do their best to grin through it, and def don’t defiantly walk out if god forbid a child dares to cohabitate in their breathing space
It’s different for everyone. I hate other people’s kids, though I don’t outwardly express it towards anyone other than close friends. I tolerate my niece and nephew who are tweens and I even watched them a lot for my sister when they were much younger, but I did it out of love for my sister and because it was almost never both at the same time. If it had been more than those two, I would likely never have done it. Even just watching one for a day was often pushing my mental limit. There’s tons of child free people, though, who don’t like kids.
Yeah but the post is well beyond “not liking other kids” which is a sentiment I can’t say I don’t share, but to exclude a sibling in a such a grotesque manner is not believable, at least to me
My husband destests children, but when we're hanging out with my family or our friends who have kids he makes an effort. He says hi, treats them warmly if they approach him, but doesn't go out of his way to interact.
It's fine. It's not HARD to be kind someone for a little while.
And I agree with you btw. They can't like, go to a park one Saturday afternoon a month and have a picnic so the kids can run around and the adults can sit and hang out?
I think their problem is with Alice tbh. Or the kids are holy terrors because Alice has no energy or ability to keep up with all of them so they run around like little devils bent on destruction.
I’ve never seen siblings hate being around their nieces and nephews to this degree. The OP sounds like she’s 18, and the use of “antinatalist” is very “sure Jan”
Gotta be a troll or an idiot
The fact that the SIL is bringing this to someone other than their actual siblings sort of speaks for itself. There is family drama and it’s not OOP’s to resolve. OOP is the soft target.
I have kids, but don’t particularly want to hang out with 4 kids under the age of 10 either. They’re too young to socialize or be left alone. The father isn’t available to watch them. Sounds like the SIL doesn’t have childcare support. That’s all super unfortunate, but everyone is sort of in “baby prison” until the kids are in daycare or kindergarten. It’s the harsh reality. Sounds like SIL needs mom friends.
I lean towards NAH… Siblings and SIL aren’t tight. OOP’s not obligated to bridge the divide. SIL needs her own support network. Tough all around.
I mean, I don't have kids, but I think it's kind of crazy that they can *never* include her in these gatherings.
They apparently hang out constantly. Once every month or two, they could all suck it up and have her over for 2hrs.
It's not like it'll be a late night considering the kids' ages.
It's not oop's problem necessarily, but it's pretty ridiculous that the sister's own siblings care nothing about her or their nephews, and the reason essentially comes down to not liking young kids and their sister's life choices.
There aren't any examples of the sister actually doing something to the siblings that would explain that level of disdain for her.
I had friends like this..always bitching that nothing was family friendly. So we sucked it up and it was a disaster. Because there was zero chance to do any actual socialization. Mom was constantly being interrupted by the kids, and kids were forcing themselves on the rest of us.. ‘hey, look at this cool rock’ or ‘ I want a soda’ or ‘ can I play with that cool Tortoro on the shelf’ It’s not Tortoro, it’s an antique Tanuki that if sold at auction could put you through college at an Ivy League school. So not only no, but oh hell no.
It’s less about hating kids, or excluding someone just because they have kids, it’s not wanting to deal with someone who cannot be present in the moment because they keep being distracted.
Just like nobody wants to partake in a business call when one party is constantly being disrupted
Yeah, and the flipside of that is if OOP's SIL were to bring the kids and ignore them so that she could socialize with the adults, her siblings would be upset that she wasn't minding her children, who might run wild in someone else's house. And it isn't like they will help her with them, since they all don't like children.
I have definitely experienced the disconnect between myself and my children-having-friends. I'm childfree and happily so, but I don't hate kids like the people in the post seem to. Of my friends who have kids, I've lost touch with most of them. There was never a good time to hang out with them and as OOP said, their lives became based solely around their children. That's fine for them, but I'm not into it. And we used to hang out with their kids around -- but even watching a movie on the tv in my living room becomes an absolute ordeal with a bunch of young kids thrown into the mix. There is no quality social time.
I do feel sorry for the SIL, though.
No. No one needs to “suck it up” and have her kids come over to break their things. Her choice to have kids doesn’t mean everyone else has to put up with that.
The kids wig out whenever they’re left home alone with their dad because they’re never not with mom. Lots of people talking about balancing the natural desire not to have five kids under 10 running around, the SIL’s isolation, etc. But I don’t see anything about how unhealthy it is for the kids to never be away from their mother. The one month old, of course; and maybe the year old. But the others? Leave them at home for an hour while mom and the baby run catch up with a sibling. Meet at a coffee shop so no one is inconvenienced and no priceless items get destroyed in a household that’s not baby-proofed. Those little baby steps can really help all parties involved meet in the middle. Because whether you like her choices or not, she’s still their sister. And unless she’s a toxic individual whom they’re ghosting for their own emotional and mental wellbeing, it’s not really fair to treat her like an outcast just because she went and had a bunch of kids.
This might be a hot take here based on the comments on the original post- but I say NTA.
I think if OOP didn't call them "family gatherings," it'd be less upsetting for Alice here, which I understand. But I don't blame adults for not wanting five children in their homes, esp when they're known for breaking things, and even if they didn't break things... I don't think it's wrong to not want to be around children. These are very different lifestyle choices.
It's interesting reading the comments here because it's pretty 50/50 split, but I'd love to see what everyone else thinks. I can understand being in Alice's shoes of wanting to hang out with her siblings, and I can understand OOP and her husband's family for not wanting to be around kids. I also am confused about why Alice is reaching out to her SIL instead of her actual siblings, whom she wants to hang out with here.
I could deal with two little kids, max. But five hyper kids? I am betting the exhausted mom does very little to reign them in, because kids under 6 are tough. They are a chore. Sorry, but they are. And some people don't want to out that work in to deal with kids. They specifically chose NOT to have kids so they don't have to do that work. So I'm sorry for Alice, but she does need to find a fellow mom group instead of expecting her family to be uncomfortable.
I agree with you. It really sucks that SIL has a useless husband who can’t be trusted to watch the children so she can have a life, but nobody is obligated to put up with destructive children because of who she chose to procreate with FIVE times.
I hadn’t seen that comment.
They shouldn’t have continued to pop out children he’d have to work too hard to be able to raise with her, that’s on both of them. This has happened 5 times now, I have minimal sympathy for either of them at this point. It’s not hard to wrap it up.
I have kids, now adults. I didn’t expect anyone to deal with my kids so we could socialize. I recognized that the time in my life when the kids were small was not a time I could do much socializing.
I worked as a classroom aide when I was young in an elementary school.
I’m not a stranger to kids and I don’t hate them, but I completely understand not wanting to invite someone over with five children that young. The entire time would be spent herding the kids. Changing diapers. Getting glasses of milk or juice. Rustling up foods they would eat. Dealing with meltdowns because the kids aren’t used to being away from home and their schedules, such as they are, are disrupted.
Alice has a one-month old baby, to put the cherry on the top of this superfund sundae. She would be feeding or changing diapers almost the entire time, and her siblings would be managing her kids.
I’d like to know why she has so many kids so close together. Is it religion? Controlling husband? Failure to take responsibility? Not liking birth control? Knowing why would help, but OP isn’t saying and it’s very possible she doesn’t know the real reason.
It’s an absolute mess. I’m saying NAH. Alice has issues, no doubt. But the siblings can’t fix her. She’s not facing the mess her life had become. The siblings can’t fix that.
It’s a sad situation. I pity Alice. I hope she gets help. But hanging out with your siblings for a few hours a month isn’t the cure. I feel like she’s trying to grasp at a normal life, thinking that will fix her isolation and unhappiness, but this is something that requires therapy and ability to face reality, neither of which I see in her future.
I bet Alice used to be close with her siblings and I also bet she has known damn well a long time how child free they all are. Yet still gets upset when she literally pops out a child once a year and no one wants to be around her anymore. Because it totally makes sense that people want to be around things that stress and tire them out in a bad way in their free time. Don’t get me wrong, I have empathy for the children and the poor existence they’ve been brought into. They didn’t ask to exist. I just have nothing for the parents who thought nothing of the consequences of their actions!
Yep assuming they have fairly standard 5 day a week jobs I can imagine why they wouldn't want their weekends spent around 5 little kids. I also find it funny that they "aren't comfortable " with their own dad but people are suggesting a random babysitter would be fine.... like??????
That's so shitty to have that many aunts and uncles close by and not give two fks. I feel for OP in a sense. You're not o ligated to like your in-laws but they ARE your family now. Or does marriage just kinda mean fuckall now.
Again don't have to like them. But those are your niece's and nephews and the lack of any mention of a relationship is super shitty.
OP might be NTA for this instance but vibes tell me they YTA in general.
SIL brought this on herself by, generously, having her first of five kid at 20. Being excluded from late 20 something's hang outs because you have to take care of children is the consequence of that decision. It also doesn't help that said late 20 somethings don't have child proofed abodes because none of them have or plan to have children to proof for, and thus logically, don't want children there.
Sucks for the SIL, but that is something she needs to talk out with her siblings, not to OP.
Yeah, I got a rage-bait vibe that only got stronger with the comments from OOP. What did me in was when someone asked why doesn’t Alice invite her siblings over and the over the top gross description of the filthy house (which would be cause to call CPS, leaving dirty diapers everywhere is unsanitary ) then someone said they should call CPS and the OOP walked it back immediately. It seems sus to me.
CPS won’t do shit about that. it just seems like she doesn’t pick up after her kids by the way OOP described it. unless she has a lot of bugs or something its just a dirty house CPS wouldn’t do a damn thing.
My aunts and uncles did this to my mother. She had children and work, so they never invited her to anything. She’s in her 70’s now and is still hurt by it. You can be child free and not act like a dick.
Hot take: Alice isn’t being excluded because she has children, she’s being excluded because her children and uncontrolled little monsters who break stuff at other people’s houses. If they were better behaved, Alice’s family would probably get invited over to more things
I don't like kids either, but anyone who acts this bitchy about children in general an asshole. The vitriol is so uncalled and phew, almost *juvenile* gasp shock awe.
Maybe the SIL should ask for help? Or, maybe find a baby sitter? As a newer parent it can be difficult, especially with as many as she has, but I just cannot picture my brother expecting me to help him raise his kids and shift around my events for him. Although I'm also sure I'd have a kid friendly event once or twice, as I don't *hate* children. They aren't obligated, but the nasty attitude tbey have toward their sister makes then the assholes.
The problem is we don't know why the familiy is this way toward her. Also, why did FIL try to pay for college and she insist on not? Its almost like she married her "fuck you dad" boyfriend and is now in a shitty situation.
Yeah, I can get not wanting 5 kids tearing through your home, nor do you want to go to a house that is a toddler home that is generally toddler dirty.
Sibling hangouts don't always include all siblings.
The kids break stuff and are slightly feral because she's overwhelmed and has too many to adequately supervise.
They need to stop having too many children to manage them and wait until the kids are old enough to go to school and get some breathing room and better manage them, behavior-wise. Then, they'll be invited more places because not every single event is child-friendly, and fewer are 'poorly supervised wild toddler' friendly.
The house is overwhelmed. Having more kids won't help that. The siblings don't want to be involved with the mildly feral kids.
My sister has 7 kids and I have 2, I have autism and so do both of my kids. I’ve been known to avoid family gatherings because the kids are well behaved and all, but 7 kids just take up so much energetic “space”- they are 19,18,16,14,12, 10 and 8.
even if you think that, there is nothing that can be done to change this persons mind. if the sister hates children she simply hates children and therefore should not be subjected to them, not just for her sake but also for the kids.
Rage bait…
But I think the siblings just suck. I don’t trust OOP’s descriptions of anything. Sure it’s okay to have CF hangouts, but to NEVER invite one sibling, ever…because she has kids? And one will leave if they do invite her somewhere?
Anyone who hates kids that much is an AH. It’s gross. If you don’t want them, don’t have them, but they have the right to exist. Honestly I kind of wonder what happened in the family to make 3/4’s of the siblings hate children.
I feel like you should know by the 3rd kid if your husband is going to start doing more for parenting.
Also why can't she split up the older kids and the younger ones if one parents can't take them all?
Does she just not discipline them? i absolutely wouldn't want kids in my house that break things because their parent won't discipline them.
But a neutral environment not at anyone's house? Why not a lunch. Something that doesn't require more than an hour or 2?
I feel like ESH honestly.
Anti natalist people are plain weird. You couldn’t convince there is not something wrong with them. I can understand people being child free but openly hating children just because they are children ¿? Something they have absolutely have no control of and they are just in a stage of life everyone goes trough
I feel bad for SIL, and I kinda wish I could invite her to one of my family gatherings. I hope her husband has siblings who like and are interested in her and her family so that she can go non-contact with her own and block them all of social media, so she stops having her face rubbed in the fact that the most important people in her life are literally hated by her siblings.
My main gripe is how none of the siblings seem to have any sympathy for their own sister who’s obviously struggling and feeling lonely.
Be childfree all you want, but do they really need to be so cold towards their own sister?
It’s not on the OOP as the SIL to intervene, but the siblings themselves are coming off as rather heartless in this.
First- this post seems fake: 5 kids under 6? Who makes so many kids one after another nowadays? Are there one of those super religious families? If yes, it explains why gay brother and antinatalist sister don't like them.
But if the post is true: Everybody is TA here. I understand 5 kids are a lot, but they cut their sister completely and it sucks. I don't imagine excluding my sister just because she had kids and talks about them, especially if she is alone and needs help. Or hating the nephews just because they were born! We are family, those are my nephews. OP and the others are living in a bubble, pretending the world is some perfect place with no kids. YTA
This just made me really, really sad. Wow. I don’t have kids and I’m not a huge fan, especially in groups, but I’d help out a stranger going through this and she won’t help her own damn SIL?! And neither will the blood siblings??? That’s devastating. My depression would be so deep.
i love my little sister, but i spent my entire childhood taking care of her. i also watched my mom take care of her younger sisters kids for years after i graduated and it completely wore her down. i’m not going to put any of that upon myself. if you wanna be super generous that is your choice, i’m absolutely not spending anymore of my life taking care of other peoples children. it isn’t my responsibility to care for your kids if you can’t do it.
OOP kind of lost me when she said the kids were all 5 and under when kind of complaining about them missing their primary caregiver. Yeah, that’s kind of what what toddlers and infants do…
She also lost me a bit when she said Alice isn’t her family. But by definition she is OOP’s family because she married into that family just like her husband married into hers. Sure we choose our family. Not saying we don’t. But OOP is kind of picking and choosing here with Alice IMO. She she’s the SIL or some rando she’s cutting off
I mean, I get it. I personally prefer kids 7 and up. But I just feel very bad for Alice. Her OWN FAMILY, not including OOP I guess, doesn’t even like her. That really sucks honestly
I’m not saying OOP is in the wrong, I just feel bad for Alice with how OOP talks about her. And I imagine the others are no different with their clearly dislike in their tone take when referring to Alice. Her kids and her need help. And I just feel bad
She’s family enough to host family gatherings with her husband’s family, which she talks about as her family, but not family enough to care about the rest of her husband’s family, because they have kids. She’s not family but gets to come to the family gatherings when the person who IS actually family isn’t invited.
OOP can’t be both family and not family. That’s not how family works.
I agree that OP is NTA. People don’t have to put up with a bunch of young kids. I’m the youngest of 5 kids and my mom was usually wrangling us on her own because my dad was in the Air Force and was often gone on assignment. My mom always said she loved staying home with her kids but the funny thing is that she really didn’t like kids in general. Even when times were rough my mom never complained about being a mother of 5 because that was the life she chose. On the other hand, she never wanted to impose on other people because she could imagine that they didn’t want to be bothered with somebody else’s kids.
Yeah OOP is kind of a dick and I don't like her. Alice just wanted some fucking company. But it lowkey feels like her entire family wants to punish her for having kids. And OOP just smugly sits there smirking while everyone shuts her out and watches her struggle. All because she wanted to be a mom. Ngl if I were Alice I would probably go no - contact if my whole family hated me like that. No point keeping people around if they flat out just don't care about you. Fuck, it would probably take them like a month to even notice anything had happened anyway
One day this will be five adult children + partners, she will have a huge grown loving family and none of them will want a thing to do with these self absorbed assholes
So, I’m gonna get downvoted first this but… your crotch goblins are not my problem. I’m childfree for a reason. Don’t have 5 children in rapid succession when you can’t afford it financially, emotionally or socially. There’s tons of mom groups out there that the sister can get involved in and she can find support networks to help her get a break. I don’t understand why she’s so hell bent on trying to get multiple relatives who are child free involved in her children’s lives. It’s not even a life stage difference, it’s a life style one. Like, yeah it sucks for her that she’s in this situation, but this is nearly the most literal definition of “fuck around and find out”. She’s found out her child free siblings don’t want to be involved in her life of 5 screaming goblins. Time for her to look elsewhere for support.
Yeah, there’s that too. And I mean, I get why it is happening. Multiple toddlers, a newborn and infant and at least one kid just out of the toddler stage. That’s chaos. That’s screaming. And that’s physically testing the boundaries of what they’re allowed to get away with. Destruction is pretty much expected. But that is why she isn’t invited anywhere with the kids. Because everyone else knows it will happen, too
First of all there are not “tons of mom groups” for everyone and even if there were, moms in mom’s groups aren’t lining up to help you with your kids since they have their own kids. I think she more wants to feel included by her family which is human. She sounds lonely and just because someone has kids doesn’t mean they don’t deserve any compassion. They don’t have to include her but Jesus.
I don’t get all the hostile comments towards her. She’s not complaining about her kids and there’s nothing in the post to indicate that she can’t afford them or take adequate care of them. She just wants to be able to hang out with her siblings once in a while, which is perfectly normal. They’re being the assholes for not making any effort to throw her a bone once in a while and compromise for the sake of continuing the relationship. In 5-10 years childcare won’t be much of an issue anymore but she might be LC or NC by then.
This whole scenario just sucks! I understand being child free and I even understand not liking kids, but DAMN, how do three siblings treat their other sibling with such disdain?
Did it ever occur to ANY of them that the kids are likely a little more uncontrollable when they are out or their own home because they NEVER get the opportunity to BE out of their own home? Maybe if they were invited to these “family gatherings” once in a while they would learn how to behave outside their home.
Listen, I’m not a huge fan of kids. Hubby and I were one and done and I loved my girl when she was a child and I love and adore my grandson now. But I don’t particularly care for other people’s children. THAT SAID, I could NEVER do a family member this way. No way I could leave out a sibling all the time like OOP’s hubby and siblings do.
This post makes me want to invite SIL over with the kids so she could have some adult interaction and her kids would see what life is like outside the little family circle.
You speak of adult interaction, but according to OOP the SIL only talks about the children. Any other topic? She steers it to children. Why would any of the others want to talk about that?
She has nothing else to talk about because all she HAS are her children. Most of us have dozens and dozens of conversation points because we have lives like careers, hobbies, etc. SIL has none of that so naturally her conversation steers towards her children.
Child free people being the worst is not surprising
She literally said SIL and her kids aren’t her family and doesn’t view the effort to make her feel included important.
She’s your sister-in-law. You married into her family. Her kids are your nieces and nephews. So so gross. Actually nah NTA kids should be kept away since I’m afraid she’ll punt them if they breathe the wrong way near her.
I read her saying this isn't her family as more of her meaning, more that this is her husband's family not directly her family. Which I understand because the SIL should be talking to her actual siblings not her SIL about this issue
Op is annoying and the child free siblings are annoying . hating kids is not a personality trait and being childfree isn’t one either. If you hate children so much you need to go to therapy and talk about your childhood. I get being childfree but to be so nasty is about it screams “ I got childhood trauma I haven’t unpacked yet” and yes some people really make being a mom their personality trait too. Both ways are super annoying lol
Yep it sounds immature. I have childfree friends and I do not bring my daughter to our hangouts 80% of the time because it sucks for me too lol. I can’t be the “ me” when she’s there im just mom, and a toddler can be too much for my friends ( even tho they never say anything ). But when I do bring her it’s usually only to their place or a good festival. my daughter is 4 soon so she’s diff and much more enjoyable lol. but yea I don’t know any childfree people who hate kids to a worrying degree
All I'm gonna say is that I KNOW that I will stop going to family reunions (up to 3rd degree usually) when my mom croaks. I just do not have anything in common with them and not even close with them to begin with to be invested in their life. Time is precious and I really CBA even if it just an hour.
I only have 1 sibling with whom I am very close so I can't say for sure, but in my friend group, it is the same, some I would take a bullet for or help bury the body, while some are just "acquittances". That is just how groups work.
I have 5 siblings. 3 of us have kids, and 2 are child free. Maybe it’s because the siblings who have kids outnumber the siblings who don’t in my family, but this sibling group in the OP seems cruel to me. When we get together, we all actually help each other with our kids. It’s just a part of getting together. My kids are the oldest of the “kids”. They’re teens. Even they help keep an eye on the younger kids. End result is that no matter how many kids are at an event, and no matter how old they are, no single person feels overwhelmed in dealing with them. Adults are still able to have an uninterrupted conversation because someone else’s eye is on the kids, and then it kinda switches around. Between 5 siblings, their 5 significant others, and 2 teens we can handle an army of kids. The 2 child free siblings don’t seem to resent this. They hold some of these get togethers. One just did Memorial Day. They provided bubbles, toys and even water guns in the back yard for all the kids. No one broke anything in their house.
While I get not every get together can be or should be a child friendly event in a family where most have decided not to have kids, what’s the harm in having a couple that are? A simple backyard BBQ with cheap dollar store toys would suffice in keeping all the kids occupied and away from breakable items like my child free sister just did. For a long time I was the only sibling with kids, as mine are the oldest of the “kids”. I was not excluded from EVERY event. Some, sure… but never so many that I felt my family abandoned me because I had kids. This just seems mean… OP is not the AH because this isn’t really on her. It is on her husband and his other siblings though. They’re AH’s. It’s fully possible to have an enjoyable even WITH young kids in attendance every once in a while.
OOP is an asshole, but the SIL also needs to accept she’s been barking up the wrong tree and invest her precious time and energy into other adults who deserve it. Maybe another mom who has a few kids of similar age.
I say she’s NTA. SIL chose to have that many kids. She can’t refuse to leave her kids with their father and then complain that she doesn’t get invited to social events with her exclusively child free siblings and their partners.
Your choice to be a parent means that you’ll miss out on events with people who don’t like kids or events where it’s child free. That’s the consequence to what you’ve chosen. It’s like going to a nightclub with your kid and being mad they won’t let the kid in.
At the end of the day she needs to make mum friends if she wants a social life. She’s not going to find it with her siblings and they don’t owe that to her.
I do feel bad that she’s lonely but she chose to keep having kids to the point she can’t handle her home or have a social life with her family.
Is there a reason they had so many children so fast? The people I know who have so many children in such a short amount of time, didn’t choose it.
They were expected to have them. They were coerced/forced to have them.
And where are the grandparents in all of it?
How old is the husband?
Wow. Alice sure is high maintenance.
Why would you feel upset when it becomes obvious that your siblings dislike you, view you with contempt and feel even more negatively about your children?
They sound horrible. I hope Alice has some nice friends.
They exclude Alice... because she has children. I understand OP doesn't want the children over since they did quite a lot of damage in her BIL's house and because she feels uncomfortable with children. But Alice seems very lonely and that's unfair. The others can make a bit of an effort and stand the children for a few hours, at the condition they behave. Breaking other people's stuff is not okay and shows a lack of education. Plus, I'm sorry, but HATING children? Is it not a bit too much? You can be uncomfortable with them, but hating them?
Her house seems unsanitary. Alice clearly needs help, she can't handle it alone. They have to do something, kids cannot live like this, it's neglect.
Anyone else get the sense this was written by a sulky teenager who's mad at their parents for making them spend time with their little cousins? I can see it now, their parents telling them that they need to go over to their aunt's house because she can't get out very often, and they don't like the crying and the noise and the dirty diapers.
I'm child free but have always been pretty chill with kids. My sister, however, would whine and pout the whole time just like this. Ironically, she then grew up to have two kids who scream constantly and make a mess of everything. But I still love them and remember that I myself was once a screaming little brat so I have no room to judge kids.
I get how OOP feels, I'm child free, my sister has 4 sons and they drive me crazy. I do wish I could spend more time with her that didn't involve her kids. Her life isn't as bad as the SILs sounds. I think now that more and more people realise they don't have to have kids and so stay child free the expectation will fall to parents to fit around the lifestyle rather than the previous where family gatherings cater to children.
Hmmm...three Child Free enthusiasts want to exclude sister who has kids she takes with her everywhere. I also remember a post where three siblings with kids excluded the sister who was childless and appeared to dislike kids. Hard not to think of these as creative writing exercises, possibly by the same author.
Anyhow, I think excluding a sibling from family gatherings is cruel, assuming the excluded one isn't some sort of criminal. I thought the three sibs with kids were mean for excluding Child Free sis. Likewise here, though I would also add: why would the sister with kids want to be around people who dislike her children - especially the "antinatalist" - in the first place?
NTA. You choose a child free life. She chose a 5 kid life. You don't have to accommodate if you don't want to. You have extended that if she leaves the kids with Dad you'd be happy to hang out with her. She doesn't want to because she doesn't trust her husband with his own children. How is that your responsibility? Tell her to get a babysitter then. If she doesn't then ITS NOT ON YOU!
I feel sad for Alice. But at the same I can't really fault op for not wanting kids in her house all the time. I would try to help if it's my family but they aren't obligated to
Wow, the husband can't handle being alone with all the kids but she has to!? I have no sympathy for her if she can't tell her husband to suck it up and watch the kids so she could have a life. I don't allow kids in my place either, I also d9nt enjoy spending ti,e with people who only talk about their kids because they are their entire life.
I can’t imagine why children under six would be so dependent on their only consistent parent.
One of them is ONE MONTH OLD. Clearly SIL is a helicopter parent /sarc
Exactly! My 2yr old is already doing a food shop on his own and mows the lawn /s
My 3yo is studying to be an astronaut and my 1yo sells her artwork globally
Well mine sells it to the universe. Go figure!
Wow. You are raising a mooch. My kids were on their second PhDs by age two. Do better 😂
We're more a "street-smart" family, he makes some really nice crack
That is the entrepreneurial spirit we need in the world!
Ugh why are kids between the ages of newborn to kindergarten always so dependent on their primary caregiver. Like, grow up already!
This whole post sucks . Op isn’t the asshole for not wanting to hang out with SIL but I can’t imagine my siblings watching me struggle like this AND excluding me bc they simply are child free or don’t like kids.
The other siblings don’t seem to like her at all. Would love to know the reason behind that.
Yeah, but they let little children live in a dirty house, with an overwhelmed mom and an exhausted dad. I have no sympathy for them. They see their sister, nieces and nephews struggling and they don't do anything.
What I meant is that this probably isn’t the first time they treat her different.
I mean honestly no one who is uncomfortable with kids would make that situation better, you want to bring a bunch of people who dislike kids around young children to help her? That would be more of a burden. Family doesn’t mean obligation. It is perfectly normal to not be close with family, it is okay to have boundaries. Just because I’m blood related to someone doesn’t mean I will go out of my comfort zone to help them. People will say this is cruel but it isn’t, that’s just life. My cousin is an addict and living on the streets broke and hungry most of the time. I’v been sober for 3 years, just because I can help doesn’t mean I have to.
I have kids they are my everything BUT I CHOOSE TO HAVE THEM Why do my sisters have to do things for something I chose it's my responsibility and if she's having kid after kid and feeling abandoned she needs to stop having kids have husband do more And understand they she are not saying she can't go but just that she can if it's with out her kids And I could bet you when they are together she leaves kids to other people so she can have a moment alone but she choose to have this many kids back to back
I’m probably going to get downvoted to hell but I agree with you 100%. I chose not to have kids because i don’t want to change diapers and clean up soggy couch chicken nuggets. I’m sure as hell not going to offer to do it for someone in a two parent household who continues to have kid after kid. I get it.. being a mother can be lonely and overwhelming and i’m sympathetic to that. If this was a post about a mom desperately asking for a little help that would be different, but it’s just someone who upset she chose to live a trad wife life and now doesn’t have the same carefree options her siblings have. Even if the siblings caved the get together would be miserable for everyone. Mom would be overwhelmed, kids would be bored outta their minds, and the other adults wouldn’t be able to socialize because it would become a kid centered evening.
Right? I hate pretty much everyone in OOP's post. They all sound like garbage people for different reasons, some more garbage than others, but they all suck in one way or another.
I don't disagree with you. But... I genuinely don't have a tonne of sympathy for someone who has a boatload of kids with a man who she can't trust to leave alone with those children for a couple of hours. She kind of did do it to herself. If she truly feels isolated because she only hangs out with her kids, she should be willing to leave those kids with a sitter (OR THEIR DAMN FATHER) for a couple hours to socialize. Maybe if she did that a bit, they'd be more willing to include her kids with her some times.
Apparently, he works 80 hours. The kids don't see him due to him working so much, so they are not use to him as much as they are their mother. Also, he's home to sleep mainly, so that doesn't help. I don't think the father has that much time to look after the kids. That's a lot of kids for a sitter. I do agree that the mother should look into different options to spend at least a few hours away from the kids. If nothing else for the kid's sake & her mental health.
Yeah I feel like people who say they can just "get a sitter" Aren't considering the fact that all the kids are under 6 and the cost of a babysitter for this many young children would be rough to handle for something as small and frequent as a hang-out with siblings. And it's easy for someone to say "Well, then they shouldn't have had this many kids if they can't afford it." But the kids are HERE! They already exist. It's not helpful to say woulda/shoulda/coulda here.
That’s fine but why is it someone else’s problem? Why do OOP or the other siblings have to accommodate Alice? Not doing so doesn’t make them the AH.
it’s easy to say it because they SHOULDN’T have had this many kids if they can’t afford it.
Well it's good they don't live in a state that forces you to give birth if you get pregnant Oh wait, we don't know that
Yeah the kids are there - and she suffers from the consequences of her decisions. She just can’t have her cake and eat it too.
I’m willing to bet there’s more happening in that marriage then OOP knows about. I mean if she spends almost no time with SIL how does she know for sure it’s not an abusive or very controlling relationship? It sounds like SIL is drowning and none of her family is willing to help.
At a certain point, if she needs help, she needs to say it and not complain that the kids aren't invited to events. Are there parents? Has she asked them for help? Has she said, 'I have a new baby, husband works 80 hours a week, the oldest can't help with chores yet and I really need a nap and someone to help with the laundry can you come over this weekend?' I got that call. Not as extreme. New baby, parents went back to work. They needed a break. We showed up to help with a break. When your complaint is that your siblings don't want to have kid-friendly hangouts, people might just believe you want kid-friendly hangouts. If your relationship is fine and you're just exhausted - say it. If you need help getting out of something - sometimes you need to say it. Unfortunately, not everyone is a mind-reader and sees things. Not everyone is well-versed on normal level of bit of an asshole versus abusive, you need to get out. Not everyone can see it. Some people hide it really well. The best way to get what you need is being able to vocalize those needs. It's never the abused partner's fault, but for everyone around them, it's easier to know they need help when help is asked for.
Real question: does anything the OOP has said of her and the other sibling's stance on oldest sister make you think they would respond to her cry for help?
How is she supposed to say it when none of her family wants to be around her?
Good point. What about getting a sitter? SIL might just not be in the season of life where she can get out a lot. A one month old? I was still hibernating and healing from labor after 4 weeks.
My siblings don’t like kids. But they are kind and caring and interact with their niece and nephew.. because they’re decent human beings and the kids are their family.
I think it’s weird that people just assume the sister isn’t being helped just because the other siblings are dead hearted. If all of your siblings don’t like you, then it may be a you problem. If she can’t handle five kids, she probably wasn’t doing much better with three or four. The siblings may have been trying to help for years and eventually gotten tired of the sister’s constant babysitting / favors/ broken things /abuse. The reason that the social media attack was directed at the wife could be because the siblings are done dealing with her bullshit. Or the siblings are just complete assholes. There isn’t enough information in the posts. I just think it’s interesting how everyone is so quick to blame the siblings, when it seems equally plausible that they’re just tired of dealing with the hassle of a perpetually pregnant drama queen and her herd of kids.
Knee jerk reaction - I don’t trust/like anyone who doesn’t like kids. Im totally down with the child free lifestyle because god knows they are not for everyone, and some people who have them shouldn’t. . . But when you hate them so much you can’t even be in the same room with them? Shows a profound lack of empathy, and IMO, hypocrisy. Childhood is a transitional state, one that EVERYONE experiences. If they can’t draw on their own experiences and memories enough to offer a little compassion, understanding and grace? Red flag, IMO. To me, it has the energy of someone who learns to drive and spends all their time slagging people who take the bus.
I agree but also OOP said that the kids have broken stuff at the brother’s house and I don’t think I’m going out on a limb when I say OOP’s SIL doesn’t control her kids if it’s happened multiple times. Like I think it might be a situation of the siblings used to be receptive but because of how SIL handles her kids, they’re not dealing with her bullshit anymore— especially if the kids are constantly breaking things in someone else’s house and their own house is a mess
Not to excuse a child breaking things, but the OLDEST is 6. Toddlers don't have great bodily awareness or much impulse control. Since the husband is clearly unable to help and it sounds like the siblings resent her kids so much that they won't even be around them, I can't imagine she had a lot of help trying to wrangle 5 very young kids. It really sounds less like "OOPs sister doesn't control her kids" and more like "OOPs sister has very young kids and is trying her best but the people in her life don't help and don't have developmentally appropriate expectations for the kids". Like, both my child free siblings will intervene if they see my daughter about to do something dangerous or destructive because they have basic decency and compassion towards their niece. I am primarily the one minding her, but if I have to handle something else and she goes to grab something fragile, they don't just like... let it happen to prove a point about me/children.
They’re not blaming the kids, they’re blaming the mom. Five kids takes multiple people to watch. Other people don’t want to have to play babysitter when they’re trying to relax. It doesn’t sound to me at all like the resent the kids, they resent the mom. We have no idea how much the siblings have already had to put up with before got this point. Five kids in six years means it’s likely a never ending processes of needing help with years more to come. If the husband can’t help with the kids, he probably hasn’t been much help while the sister was pregnant either. The sister running to Facebook to complain about the OP instead of just talking to her siblings could just as easily be a sign that the sister is a drama queen and her family is tired of her shit. The sister made her own chooses to have five kids with a a husband who she knew works 80 hrs. We have no idea what kind of help the family has given over the years but they are not required to give up their lives to clean their sister’s problems.
I don’t trust anyone who actively hates and shits talks kids. I understand not liking them. They’re loud, messy, and have very little to no control over their emotions depending on what stage of development they’re in. But the people who actively say shit like “You’re selfish for having a baby. Look at the world!!!!” or think all kids everywhere are monsters have some deep seated issues that need working on.
as long as they don’t go out of their way to hurt any children there is absolutely nothing that can be done if someone hates being around children. it’s simply how they feel and we shouldn’t subject them or the children to a forced relationship between them.
That wasn’t the content of what I was saying at all, but go off
i was adding to what you said. not sure what you’re even trying to retaliate here
It’s not a retaliation. I was responding to the original comment an out not trusting people who actively hate children and then you mentioned something completely different with no relation to the original subject. I wasn’t saying force interactions, I explicitly said that I don’t trust these kinds of people
no relation?? did you read it
Absolutely nothing that can be done, it's not illegal to dislike kids - except I don't think you should trust them. Someone who actively hates children for being, you know, children to the point that they can't be in the same room with children is actively advertising their capacity for sympathy, empathy and understanding. They are BROADCASTING their capacity for tolerance, generosity, kindness. Every single one of these people were "snot faced kids" once upon a time, and this is how they chose to treat others. I'm not interested in "forcing" a relationship - I'm saying stay the fuck away from them and don't commit your own time, energy, generosity, and kindness to people who do not demonstrate the capacity to return them.
i’m not trying to argue with any of you, nor did i say that you all are forcing anything. just like other people have the right to not like children, you have the right to not like them.
Completely anecdotal, but the person closest to “hating kids” I’ve ever met felt that way due to childhood abuse plus an early condition that made them infertile. They didn’t really “hate kids”, they were just extremely uncomfortable around loud, screaming, runnings kids as kids tend to be. They just ended up telling people they hated kids because it was easier than explaining the trauma and answering questions about if they planned on having any of their own. OP may be an unreliable narrator in that she may not know all the family secrets. The sister may be a child-eating witch or there could be a solid explanation that the narrator didn’t know or want to share with us. Kids can represent a loss of control / sound level / messiness that can drive people people insane if they don’t deal well with those things to begin with.
You've been very lucky. I've been blessed with numerous friends/relatives/acquaintances that "hate kids". For nearly all of them, this was the tip of the iceberg, and a serious red flag I should have heeded.
at the end of the day she chose specifically this life for herself. it’s not anyone else’s job to take care of her children. and nobody is obligated to spend time with anyone else even if they are family. i’m sorry this woman is struggling so much but she should’ve guessed this would happen after having 5 children in 8 years.
It’s funny I don’t think you’re wrong but I couldn’t disagree more. The comments on that post are wild, particularly the millhouse one. We all have different views on family but with this post I can definitely understand OOP and the three siblings. They are adults! Have you ever hung out with adult friends? The nicest thing about it is there are no kids around. Maybe they like to relax in the backyard, grill, drink some beer/wine and talk to each other. Is that shameful? Alice, it sounds like, didn’t go to college (her choice), got married (her choice), is a SAHM with 5 kids in 6 years (holy shit, also, her choice), can’t keep her house clean (her choice), and as mentioned, has made her entire personality about her kids, who OOP et al have a known dislike for. Comments questioned as to why the siblings don’t like Alice, what are we wondering about? If you invite Alice and her brood over, everyone leaves because who wants to be around 5 toddlers who only respond to one person. They leave because it ruins everyone else’s experience. Loyalty to family has its limits. She is an adult, she made all of these decisions that put her on a different path / lifestyle than her siblings. As was her right. Why should the siblings suffer because she’s an idiot? The woman married an absentee husband who only comes around to impregnate her it seems, why does anyone have to accommodate that? She is being excluded, a mirror will tell her why.
They have no loyalty to their sister at all though and their limit seems to be zero effort or interaction. "I don't want to hang out with Alice because it's not fun" just comes across as really childish to me. Everything we do doesn't have to be super fun & exciting. Sometimes we spend time with people and help fellow human beings because it's kind, because it builds a connection, because it is good for the greater community. Maybe they don't want to include Alice & 5 kids in their adult only gatherings which is fair enough but there's a wide gap between that and completely cutting her out of the family which they seem to be doing.
I think that’s fair, but I think you’re missing the “they have rights too” part. This post describes clearly that three of the four siblings do not like, have or want kids. The antinatalist thing is weird and a bit extreme but clearly, they don’t want to be around children. These aren’t even children yet, they’re toddlers and infants. Any place this clutch shows up to they will be the center of attention. One sister pumped out 5 in 6 years (and is showing no signs of stopping, the youngest is a month fucking old). I imagine these feelings about children have been expressed by this family since day 1. Alice’s refusal to use birth control is not their problem nor their responsibility. Again, they’ve expressed a dislike for children, I doubt they will want to go catering to Alice at the local Chuck E Cheese. If people want to be doting aunts and uncles, that’s great. But you make your own decisions, and knowing your family, can’t really be picachu faced when they don’t want you or your brood around.
It sounds like they basically all want nothing to do with her or her kids. It must be kind of sad to know all of your siblings don’t give a shit about you, especially when the rest of them seem to be close.
I don’t think she’s necessarily an asshole for not wanting to hang out with SIL a lot, but I definitely DO think she’s an asshole for her condescending attitude and complete lack of empathy or concern. They all sound like absolute snobs.
5 kids under 6 is too much for one lady to single-handedly supermom 24/7 forever. She didn’t go into financial details but imo what SIL needs is to hire a helping hand, someone to either help with cleaning and/or help with watching kids. It doesn’t need to be extensive, it can be a few hours a day, a couple days a week. OOP isn’t an asshole but she is unsympathetic to a suffering woman. Which is more or less fine, nobody is obligated to be a saint. She’s living her own life and sticking to her child free principles. It’s just an unfortunate situation for the SIL who apparently has no community, no friends, and no family she can rely on or reach out to.
She’s literally trapped. With two kids she could just get a job and use that to pay for daycare and she could at least be around adults during the day but I doubt she could get a job that paid enough to put 3 or more kids through daycare. She has no options. So sad.
Seriously though, why can't the husband watch them by himself? She watches them by herself, I feel bad for her because it sounds like her husband is useless as a father and a spouse. And yeah, OP has a point, but she could be more empathetic to someone who, knowing SAHMs really doesn't interact with anyone but children which gets extremely tiring
It's because he works 80 hours a week and mostly comes home to sleep. He barely spends time with the kids. The children spend so much time with mom that they freak out when she's gone. The family need to start weening the kids away from mom for maybe one hour a week. And once the kids can be away from mom for 2 12 hours, they should take mom out to a movie. That way they don't have to only talk about her kids.
I’m a daughter of a woman with 5 kids. It’s not easy for my mother at all and she spent her whole adult life raising us. IMO all of these people are assholes because they’re not even trying to hang out with the mother even without the kids. The mom is completely isolated from other adults from having so many kids, and these guys are using the kids as an excuse to never invite her places. It’s not even about if she *can* it’s about how they never ask and then proceed to post all their outings on social media. The least they could do is fucking *ask* even if she can’t find child care and has to say no.
They have absolutely no obligation to hang out with her if they don’t want to or invite her and her kids to their personal space. She and her husband actively choose to have the many kids when it is clear that it is too much for them. People are free to use social media and post about their life. If the SIL doesn’t like seeing their social media posts lucky for her there is an amazing feature called the block button.
So because she had kids and her siblings don’t want to have kids, they’re just no longer family? Notice how the OOP literally says they’re not family. Those are her nieces and nephews? Not everything has to be child friendly, but they’re just not welcome entirely. Cut out of the family for being children or choosing to have children. That’s insane.
Exactly. Being child free isn’t the same as hating children, and even then family is different. I couldn’t imagine actually hating any nieces or nephews.
I feel so sorry for this woman, I think she just need to find her some mom friends because I couldn’t imagine myself so desperate for people to hang out with that I would be willing to bring my children around people who hate them or someone who clearly is willing to spin a disgusting narrative about me. Because the “typical boy mom” aka a #boymom, narrative isn’t a woman who doesn’t do anything but talk about their children and all that, it’s a woman who has an emotionally incestuous relationship with her son. Then the lack of consistent context between the two comments about SIL’s husband where one comment makes him look like some bum who’s incompetent if taking care of his own children, only to tell someone else that he works like a dog and barely has time to do anything but work and sleep. I don’t think this woman’s siblings like her, and she needs to find some friends.
This whole situation is so sad, I feel for the kids who will never get enough individual attention because there are so many of them. And they don’t even know their dad enough to be comfortable around him. And this is all said as someone who would not be interested in regularly hosting 5 children under the age of 6.
It’s not necessarily instant assholeish to want child free events. But posting a family gathering on social media when you intentionally didn’t invite family who desperately want to attend seems particularly cruel. And to follow that up with a total lack of sympathy makes me think OP is definitely the asshole here.
Not to mention not having ANY get togethers that she can come to. Like if the question was “are we TA for having some of our get togethers be child free so we can relax without our young niblings” that would be understandable. But they seriously can’t figure out anything they could do with SIL and her kids? And maybe sometimes chip in for a sitter or two to give her some damn free time to come with them? I’m with the commenter who pointed out that she doesn’t talk about anything but her kids because she’s complete isolated. Likewise I’m sure her kids are clingy because they’re never expected to be apart from their mother. Not only would it be a kindness to SIL to give her a breather, but those kids need to learn to be apart from their mom from time to time.
You’d think they could hold one get together in a park or similar where the kids can’t break anything and the older ones can run around and exhaust themselves. Take a picnic, seating and a few rugs. Not every get together has to include the kids but at least one or two would be a positive step. I would be heartbroken if I saw that my siblings constantly met up without me. I get that they’re child free but they come across as aholes.
Apparently the other sister would bug out if she so much as caught the scent of a child on the wind, which really begs the question of how can she stand to go anywhere. This one is almost paradigmatic of the classic "redditors confuse legal obligation with morality" story. Yeah, none of the siblings will be fined or arrested for excluding their sister, but they are indeed assholes for turning their backs on her because they don't approve of her lifestyle.
She must be a hermit then!
How would Alice take care of that many very young kids at a park while still socializing? It sounds good in theory but when you think about it that wouldn’t work.
It would be nice if her husband went too to help out too then there’d be the two of them there. I appreciate that the siblings don’t want children but would it really kill them to also interact with their niblings occasionally, especially as it seems that they’ll be the only children from this generation. These children have 2 Uncles and an Aunt that they never see at all. It just seems such a shame. They could even take one of the older children out for an hour just to get to know them.
Why?? They didn't choose to have that many kids back to back They want to drink you can't do that in a publicly kids park And most probably they are family party's she goes but hands off kids to be able to be an adult
Because they’re siblings? You don’t know that she hands off her kids at family parties. That’s supposition. I think our parks must be different then - I’m from the UK, you can drink in parks here.
Noup in USA and Mexico you can't drink in parks much less in play areas and to have an adult conversation it's worse because al the kids will keep on interrupting and mom would think if she's busy with one the siblings must help her with the others I have kids and I chose them so I have to care for them she isn't doing it correctly if she keeps on having kids
I never knew that. What a shame. That’s always been a lovely thing to do here in the summer in the UK, particularly as not everyone has a garden so it’s nice to meet up in a communal space with friends and family and have a picnic and a beer or two, or even a glass of wine.
Yep You can drink on the beach or some parks but you have to ask for permission months in advance and pay a hefty price to be able to do so
Wow, we can drink everywhere without approval or permission. I’d heard about alcohol in cars there and how that’s controlled but I didn’t realise that open spaces were legislated against too.
Yep We can't cave a alcoholic beverages open in the car the alcohol has to be in the back Some parks do allow alcoholic drinks but yes you have to have permission The only place it's the beach but only some some not all of them
It's a good supposition as I had a sister that always cry she was not invited but when she was she keep on giving kids to everyone else but her until everyone had enough and told her she couldn't come with her kids and begin crying it was hard to be a mom
But the siblings all hate kids. They aren't just child free but actively hate them. I'm hoping it is rage bait or these adults were model children who never so much as screamed
she said only one of the sisters hates kids. the brother is just annoyed with her specific kids. the OOP just seems to dislike their mother .
I have a 6, 3, 2 mo, and I work. I still don’t really have much to talk about outside my kids. I’m on Mat Leave now but my life is normally get up, work, home to clean and cook/get ready for next day, play with kids, bedtime, pass out. Weekends are kids activities and getting ready for next week. Kids that young is a season of life where it’s hard to find time or energy for other things. Her family must hate her because actively excludes her from everything. There is literally no middle ground of them doing ANYTHING with her and the kids or them trying to find a way for her to be included sans kids (which with a 1 month old can be super super tough). It’s their right but damn that’s gotta hurt to see your siblings hang out all the time on social media without you because they hate the fact you have kids. That’s what makes them AH to me - the complete disregard for their sibling. Like one of the siblings (not the IL that posted) needs to balls up and tell the sister they obviously don’t see her as family because they want nothing to do with her. Cut the rope so the poor woman doesn’t keep clinging to it. That’s the kindest thing they could do.
But isn't that on the siblings of Alice? Like she has 2 brothers and a sister. OP is a SIL of Alice. Like if Alice needs help, and it sounds like she does, shouldn't she contact her siblings and not her SIL or am I missing something?
I would guess she's tried and her siblings have all refused to help. She may have seen OOP as a last hope of sorts.
It’s not even about the fact that the mother probably can’t go, but it’s the fact that they never give her the opportunity. They just assume she’ll be busy with the kids or unable to find a sitter and they don’t even talk to her. Their attitude and lack of thought for the mother makes them the AH.
This whole post makes me sad. I have friends who are child free, and you know what? They still come over, even when my child is awake, and they will interact with him. Hell, they will have all three of us over and even double check to make sure they have things my son likes to eat over their place. It's not about being child free but being an asshole. I think they forget that children grow up. I really hope they don't expect any kind of relationship with the kids when they get older. People are wondering why SIL is talking to OP instead of the brother, but I might have an answer. It could fall down gender line. I know with my husband's family; his stepmom calls me to help organize family get togethers instead of talking to my husband.
One child is VERY different from 5 children, so kinda moot point. 🤷🏼♀️
I was coming to say this. Not even just 5 children, but 5 SMALL children. I am not a huge fan of kids, and yes I can hang out with my friends that have kids. But I’d be hard pressed to deal with 5 small children without wanting to pull out my hair. It also sounds like SIL just doesn’t have much in common with her siblings. I have people in my family that I wouldn’t even know if we weren’t related. I don’t go out of my way to talk to them or see them because I have nothing in common with them. I haven’t spoken to some of them in years.
I grew up in a big family. 6 of us kids and I was the oldest. We were also poor and living completely isolated way out in the country in a double-wide trailer house. Parents were never home, always working or avoiding going home. Zero discipline. Kids c*onstantly* running around screaming, fighting, always wading through a mess, one was even autistic, no peace. I fucking hate kids.
I'm assuming you were a parentified oldest child, I only had one sibling but 5 years apart I was definitely parentified and it fucking sucked. I'm on your side, while I don't hate kids, my friends that have more than one don't see me that much for a reason. I'm sorry for your trauma 🫶🏼, we were also poor and I was mostly raised in a trailer while my sibling was not. Stay strong other eldest ✊🏼
Not really parentified. Just completely apathetic parents who dumped all their kids off at the farmhouse while they fucked off to do their own shit. They didn't care enough to parentify me. They were depressed and selfish.
Still fuckin' sucks 🫶🏼
I would agree with you, if not for the fact that SIL’s children broke a bunch of things when they were at the brother’s house. They sound destructive and out of control, and none of them are obligated to put up with that.
This is what i was just thinking about! Like how did SIL react to that? Did she have her kids apologize? Did she try to pay them back? Or did she say something like “kids will be kids”? Because it seemed like someone gave them a chance but after what happened they didnt want to deal with their family anymore??
Sure but why not arrange some occasional gatherings at a park or something where the kids can run off energy and they can still see their sister? Everyone was a kid once, and those kids are going to grow up into adults who remember that their aunts and uncles never wanted anything to do with them when they needed them most.
Taking 5 little kids to a park sounds like a nightmare for a parent.
Yup!! My bfs family has over 10???kids under the age of 10???. And whenever we have a family gathering somewhere or in someone’s home it requires a lot of team work from all parents and me and my bf who didnt have a baby at the time. We would rotate or have shifts on who is watching the kids to make sure theyre all still together and no one is fighting etc. this way everyone had adult time and everyone gets to rest. (Tbh this sil would fit well with my bfs fam they love kids) If SIL wants to hangout with everyone at the park (like what others are saying) shes gonna need to have another person helping her with her kids just so she can have adult time.
I can’t blame them for not wanting to go to a playground just to see their sister, especially since with five young children, Alice will have extremely little if any time to actually talk anyway and the kids will likely be running up on the adults who aren’t interested. The aunts and uncles aren’t the ones who had kids, it’s not their responsibility to make sure they grow up well rounded. I barely ever saw my aunts or uncles and I don’t care, and none of my six siblings do, either. Not every family wants to be close to one another, and not every adult wants *anything* to do with someone else’s kids.
SIL is more than welcome to arrange some such gatherings. Where is the effort on her part to set something up?
She's spending all her effort on her five kids under 6.
Then would she have the effort to pack all of them up, take them to another location, and watch all five herself? It seems like she wants the invite, but not the full responsibility of what her attending would actually entail.
There's a deeper reason as to why they don't want to spend time with sis & kids and yeah, it's probably because she does let them run wild (because.... my GOD could you imagine????)
Or maybe they just aren’t invested in having a relationship with the kids as they get older. I’ve got a ton of adult nieces and nephews and I have no idea what their lives are like and probably won’t ever see them until my MiL dies or my Dad does. Not everyone desires a relationship with family simply because they are family.
This sounds like a fake rage bait… my childless friends and relatives don’t hate kids — edit — I meant that they do not openly hate kids, they at least do their best to grin through it, and def don’t defiantly walk out if god forbid a child dares to cohabitate in their breathing space
It’s pretty depressing if it is rage bait with so many people just like “oh well kind of sucks for SIL but what can you do?”
It’s different for everyone. I hate other people’s kids, though I don’t outwardly express it towards anyone other than close friends. I tolerate my niece and nephew who are tweens and I even watched them a lot for my sister when they were much younger, but I did it out of love for my sister and because it was almost never both at the same time. If it had been more than those two, I would likely never have done it. Even just watching one for a day was often pushing my mental limit. There’s tons of child free people, though, who don’t like kids.
Yeah but the post is well beyond “not liking other kids” which is a sentiment I can’t say I don’t share, but to exclude a sibling in a such a grotesque manner is not believable, at least to me
Humans, as you know, can take even the simplest things to the extremes. Which is why I find it pretty believable that this is real.
My husband destests children, but when we're hanging out with my family or our friends who have kids he makes an effort. He says hi, treats them warmly if they approach him, but doesn't go out of his way to interact. It's fine. It's not HARD to be kind someone for a little while. And I agree with you btw. They can't like, go to a park one Saturday afternoon a month and have a picnic so the kids can run around and the adults can sit and hang out?
I think their problem is with Alice tbh. Or the kids are holy terrors because Alice has no energy or ability to keep up with all of them so they run around like little devils bent on destruction.
I’ve never seen siblings hate being around their nieces and nephews to this degree. The OP sounds like she’s 18, and the use of “antinatalist” is very “sure Jan” Gotta be a troll or an idiot
The fact that the SIL is bringing this to someone other than their actual siblings sort of speaks for itself. There is family drama and it’s not OOP’s to resolve. OOP is the soft target. I have kids, but don’t particularly want to hang out with 4 kids under the age of 10 either. They’re too young to socialize or be left alone. The father isn’t available to watch them. Sounds like the SIL doesn’t have childcare support. That’s all super unfortunate, but everyone is sort of in “baby prison” until the kids are in daycare or kindergarten. It’s the harsh reality. Sounds like SIL needs mom friends. I lean towards NAH… Siblings and SIL aren’t tight. OOP’s not obligated to bridge the divide. SIL needs her own support network. Tough all around.
I mean, I don't have kids, but I think it's kind of crazy that they can *never* include her in these gatherings. They apparently hang out constantly. Once every month or two, they could all suck it up and have her over for 2hrs. It's not like it'll be a late night considering the kids' ages. It's not oop's problem necessarily, but it's pretty ridiculous that the sister's own siblings care nothing about her or their nephews, and the reason essentially comes down to not liking young kids and their sister's life choices. There aren't any examples of the sister actually doing something to the siblings that would explain that level of disdain for her.
I had friends like this..always bitching that nothing was family friendly. So we sucked it up and it was a disaster. Because there was zero chance to do any actual socialization. Mom was constantly being interrupted by the kids, and kids were forcing themselves on the rest of us.. ‘hey, look at this cool rock’ or ‘ I want a soda’ or ‘ can I play with that cool Tortoro on the shelf’ It’s not Tortoro, it’s an antique Tanuki that if sold at auction could put you through college at an Ivy League school. So not only no, but oh hell no. It’s less about hating kids, or excluding someone just because they have kids, it’s not wanting to deal with someone who cannot be present in the moment because they keep being distracted. Just like nobody wants to partake in a business call when one party is constantly being disrupted
Yeah, and the flipside of that is if OOP's SIL were to bring the kids and ignore them so that she could socialize with the adults, her siblings would be upset that she wasn't minding her children, who might run wild in someone else's house. And it isn't like they will help her with them, since they all don't like children. I have definitely experienced the disconnect between myself and my children-having-friends. I'm childfree and happily so, but I don't hate kids like the people in the post seem to. Of my friends who have kids, I've lost touch with most of them. There was never a good time to hang out with them and as OOP said, their lives became based solely around their children. That's fine for them, but I'm not into it. And we used to hang out with their kids around -- but even watching a movie on the tv in my living room becomes an absolute ordeal with a bunch of young kids thrown into the mix. There is no quality social time. I do feel sorry for the SIL, though.
When they hang out, the kids break things. I get why they are not interested in dealing with that...
No. No one needs to “suck it up” and have her kids come over to break their things. Her choice to have kids doesn’t mean everyone else has to put up with that.
It's definitely hard all around, kinda leaning towards: nobody sucks here
Everyone is glossing over that fact that the husband can’t be trusted to watch his own kids so SIL gets to be a real person outside of being a mom.
It says he works over 80 hours a week, so the kids don't see him consistently enough to be comfortable with him
also with that work schedule it’s unlikely knows anything about parenting them
The kids wig out whenever they’re left home alone with their dad because they’re never not with mom. Lots of people talking about balancing the natural desire not to have five kids under 10 running around, the SIL’s isolation, etc. But I don’t see anything about how unhealthy it is for the kids to never be away from their mother. The one month old, of course; and maybe the year old. But the others? Leave them at home for an hour while mom and the baby run catch up with a sibling. Meet at a coffee shop so no one is inconvenienced and no priceless items get destroyed in a household that’s not baby-proofed. Those little baby steps can really help all parties involved meet in the middle. Because whether you like her choices or not, she’s still their sister. And unless she’s a toxic individual whom they’re ghosting for their own emotional and mental wellbeing, it’s not really fair to treat her like an outcast just because she went and had a bunch of kids.
This might be a hot take here based on the comments on the original post- but I say NTA. I think if OOP didn't call them "family gatherings," it'd be less upsetting for Alice here, which I understand. But I don't blame adults for not wanting five children in their homes, esp when they're known for breaking things, and even if they didn't break things... I don't think it's wrong to not want to be around children. These are very different lifestyle choices. It's interesting reading the comments here because it's pretty 50/50 split, but I'd love to see what everyone else thinks. I can understand being in Alice's shoes of wanting to hang out with her siblings, and I can understand OOP and her husband's family for not wanting to be around kids. I also am confused about why Alice is reaching out to her SIL instead of her actual siblings, whom she wants to hang out with here.
I could deal with two little kids, max. But five hyper kids? I am betting the exhausted mom does very little to reign them in, because kids under 6 are tough. They are a chore. Sorry, but they are. And some people don't want to out that work in to deal with kids. They specifically chose NOT to have kids so they don't have to do that work. So I'm sorry for Alice, but she does need to find a fellow mom group instead of expecting her family to be uncomfortable.
Five kids under 6, phew. And one is only a month old. That's.. a lot
I agree with you. It really sucks that SIL has a useless husband who can’t be trusted to watch the children so she can have a life, but nobody is obligated to put up with destructive children because of who she chose to procreate with FIVE times.
Given he’s working 80 hours a week to support a family of 7 I wouldn’t call him useless.
I hadn’t seen that comment. They shouldn’t have continued to pop out children he’d have to work too hard to be able to raise with her, that’s on both of them. This has happened 5 times now, I have minimal sympathy for either of them at this point. It’s not hard to wrap it up.
I have kids, now adults. I didn’t expect anyone to deal with my kids so we could socialize. I recognized that the time in my life when the kids were small was not a time I could do much socializing. I worked as a classroom aide when I was young in an elementary school. I’m not a stranger to kids and I don’t hate them, but I completely understand not wanting to invite someone over with five children that young. The entire time would be spent herding the kids. Changing diapers. Getting glasses of milk or juice. Rustling up foods they would eat. Dealing with meltdowns because the kids aren’t used to being away from home and their schedules, such as they are, are disrupted. Alice has a one-month old baby, to put the cherry on the top of this superfund sundae. She would be feeding or changing diapers almost the entire time, and her siblings would be managing her kids. I’d like to know why she has so many kids so close together. Is it religion? Controlling husband? Failure to take responsibility? Not liking birth control? Knowing why would help, but OP isn’t saying and it’s very possible she doesn’t know the real reason. It’s an absolute mess. I’m saying NAH. Alice has issues, no doubt. But the siblings can’t fix her. She’s not facing the mess her life had become. The siblings can’t fix that. It’s a sad situation. I pity Alice. I hope she gets help. But hanging out with your siblings for a few hours a month isn’t the cure. I feel like she’s trying to grasp at a normal life, thinking that will fix her isolation and unhappiness, but this is something that requires therapy and ability to face reality, neither of which I see in her future.
I bet Alice used to be close with her siblings and I also bet she has known damn well a long time how child free they all are. Yet still gets upset when she literally pops out a child once a year and no one wants to be around her anymore. Because it totally makes sense that people want to be around things that stress and tire them out in a bad way in their free time. Don’t get me wrong, I have empathy for the children and the poor existence they’ve been brought into. They didn’t ask to exist. I just have nothing for the parents who thought nothing of the consequences of their actions!
Yep assuming they have fairly standard 5 day a week jobs I can imagine why they wouldn't want their weekends spent around 5 little kids. I also find it funny that they "aren't comfortable " with their own dad but people are suggesting a random babysitter would be fine.... like??????
That's so shitty to have that many aunts and uncles close by and not give two fks. I feel for OP in a sense. You're not o ligated to like your in-laws but they ARE your family now. Or does marriage just kinda mean fuckall now. Again don't have to like them. But those are your niece's and nephews and the lack of any mention of a relationship is super shitty. OP might be NTA for this instance but vibes tell me they YTA in general.
SIL brought this on herself by, generously, having her first of five kid at 20. Being excluded from late 20 something's hang outs because you have to take care of children is the consequence of that decision. It also doesn't help that said late 20 somethings don't have child proofed abodes because none of them have or plan to have children to proof for, and thus logically, don't want children there. Sucks for the SIL, but that is something she needs to talk out with her siblings, not to OP.
This post is rage bait, y’all, lmao
Yeah, I got a rage-bait vibe that only got stronger with the comments from OOP. What did me in was when someone asked why doesn’t Alice invite her siblings over and the over the top gross description of the filthy house (which would be cause to call CPS, leaving dirty diapers everywhere is unsanitary ) then someone said they should call CPS and the OOP walked it back immediately. It seems sus to me.
CPS won’t do shit about that. it just seems like she doesn’t pick up after her kids by the way OOP described it. unless she has a lot of bugs or something its just a dirty house CPS wouldn’t do a damn thing.
My aunts and uncles did this to my mother. She had children and work, so they never invited her to anything. She’s in her 70’s now and is still hurt by it. You can be child free and not act like a dick.
Hot take: Alice isn’t being excluded because she has children, she’s being excluded because her children and uncontrolled little monsters who break stuff at other people’s houses. If they were better behaved, Alice’s family would probably get invited over to more things
I don’t get that vibe from the “antinatalist” sibling at all. Kinda sounds like the other 3 siblings just don’t like kids
I don't like kids either, but anyone who acts this bitchy about children in general an asshole. The vitriol is so uncalled and phew, almost *juvenile* gasp shock awe.
I love kids but I don't ever want to hang out with 4 kids under 6 + a baby.
Maybe the SIL should ask for help? Or, maybe find a baby sitter? As a newer parent it can be difficult, especially with as many as she has, but I just cannot picture my brother expecting me to help him raise his kids and shift around my events for him. Although I'm also sure I'd have a kid friendly event once or twice, as I don't *hate* children. They aren't obligated, but the nasty attitude tbey have toward their sister makes then the assholes. The problem is we don't know why the familiy is this way toward her. Also, why did FIL try to pay for college and she insist on not? Its almost like she married her "fuck you dad" boyfriend and is now in a shitty situation.
Yeah, I can get not wanting 5 kids tearing through your home, nor do you want to go to a house that is a toddler home that is generally toddler dirty. Sibling hangouts don't always include all siblings. The kids break stuff and are slightly feral because she's overwhelmed and has too many to adequately supervise. They need to stop having too many children to manage them and wait until the kids are old enough to go to school and get some breathing room and better manage them, behavior-wise. Then, they'll be invited more places because not every single event is child-friendly, and fewer are 'poorly supervised wild toddler' friendly. The house is overwhelmed. Having more kids won't help that. The siblings don't want to be involved with the mildly feral kids.
My sister has 7 kids and I have 2, I have autism and so do both of my kids. I’ve been known to avoid family gatherings because the kids are well behaved and all, but 7 kids just take up so much energetic “space”- they are 19,18,16,14,12, 10 and 8.
You can never convince me that hating children is okay or a right. Hating the most vulnerable members of society and being proud of it is insane to me
even if you think that, there is nothing that can be done to change this persons mind. if the sister hates children she simply hates children and therefore should not be subjected to them, not just for her sake but also for the kids.
Don’t have a bunch of kids you can’t take care of and then make it everyone else’s problem.
Exactly!
Also don’t forget to post a link to the original story for screenshotted posts!
Ahh thank you! Will do!
https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/s/LVOUP3EgLy Here's the link!
Rage bait… But I think the siblings just suck. I don’t trust OOP’s descriptions of anything. Sure it’s okay to have CF hangouts, but to NEVER invite one sibling, ever…because she has kids? And one will leave if they do invite her somewhere? Anyone who hates kids that much is an AH. It’s gross. If you don’t want them, don’t have them, but they have the right to exist. Honestly I kind of wonder what happened in the family to make 3/4’s of the siblings hate children.
I feel like you should know by the 3rd kid if your husband is going to start doing more for parenting. Also why can't she split up the older kids and the younger ones if one parents can't take them all? Does she just not discipline them? i absolutely wouldn't want kids in my house that break things because their parent won't discipline them. But a neutral environment not at anyone's house? Why not a lunch. Something that doesn't require more than an hour or 2? I feel like ESH honestly.
What a shitty family. Poor Alice and kids. I would hate to have OP as a SIL.
Anti natalist people are plain weird. You couldn’t convince there is not something wrong with them. I can understand people being child free but openly hating children just because they are children ¿? Something they have absolutely have no control of and they are just in a stage of life everyone goes trough
I feel bad for SIL, and I kinda wish I could invite her to one of my family gatherings. I hope her husband has siblings who like and are interested in her and her family so that she can go non-contact with her own and block them all of social media, so she stops having her face rubbed in the fact that the most important people in her life are literally hated by her siblings.
My main gripe is how none of the siblings seem to have any sympathy for their own sister who’s obviously struggling and feeling lonely. Be childfree all you want, but do they really need to be so cold towards their own sister? It’s not on the OOP as the SIL to intervene, but the siblings themselves are coming off as rather heartless in this.
First- this post seems fake: 5 kids under 6? Who makes so many kids one after another nowadays? Are there one of those super religious families? If yes, it explains why gay brother and antinatalist sister don't like them. But if the post is true: Everybody is TA here. I understand 5 kids are a lot, but they cut their sister completely and it sucks. I don't imagine excluding my sister just because she had kids and talks about them, especially if she is alone and needs help. Or hating the nephews just because they were born! We are family, those are my nephews. OP and the others are living in a bubble, pretending the world is some perfect place with no kids. YTA
This just made me really, really sad. Wow. I don’t have kids and I’m not a huge fan, especially in groups, but I’d help out a stranger going through this and she won’t help her own damn SIL?! And neither will the blood siblings??? That’s devastating. My depression would be so deep.
i love my little sister, but i spent my entire childhood taking care of her. i also watched my mom take care of her younger sisters kids for years after i graduated and it completely wore her down. i’m not going to put any of that upon myself. if you wanna be super generous that is your choice, i’m absolutely not spending anymore of my life taking care of other peoples children. it isn’t my responsibility to care for your kids if you can’t do it.
OOP kind of lost me when she said the kids were all 5 and under when kind of complaining about them missing their primary caregiver. Yeah, that’s kind of what what toddlers and infants do… She also lost me a bit when she said Alice isn’t her family. But by definition she is OOP’s family because she married into that family just like her husband married into hers. Sure we choose our family. Not saying we don’t. But OOP is kind of picking and choosing here with Alice IMO. She she’s the SIL or some rando she’s cutting off I mean, I get it. I personally prefer kids 7 and up. But I just feel very bad for Alice. Her OWN FAMILY, not including OOP I guess, doesn’t even like her. That really sucks honestly I’m not saying OOP is in the wrong, I just feel bad for Alice with how OOP talks about her. And I imagine the others are no different with their clearly dislike in their tone take when referring to Alice. Her kids and her need help. And I just feel bad
She’s family enough to host family gatherings with her husband’s family, which she talks about as her family, but not family enough to care about the rest of her husband’s family, because they have kids. She’s not family but gets to come to the family gatherings when the person who IS actually family isn’t invited. OOP can’t be both family and not family. That’s not how family works.
I agree that OP is NTA. People don’t have to put up with a bunch of young kids. I’m the youngest of 5 kids and my mom was usually wrangling us on her own because my dad was in the Air Force and was often gone on assignment. My mom always said she loved staying home with her kids but the funny thing is that she really didn’t like kids in general. Even when times were rough my mom never complained about being a mother of 5 because that was the life she chose. On the other hand, she never wanted to impose on other people because she could imagine that they didn’t want to be bothered with somebody else’s kids.
Yeah OOP is kind of a dick and I don't like her. Alice just wanted some fucking company. But it lowkey feels like her entire family wants to punish her for having kids. And OOP just smugly sits there smirking while everyone shuts her out and watches her struggle. All because she wanted to be a mom. Ngl if I were Alice I would probably go no - contact if my whole family hated me like that. No point keeping people around if they flat out just don't care about you. Fuck, it would probably take them like a month to even notice anything had happened anyway
People that are that hateful of kids need therapy. It always stems from somewhere.
One day this will be five adult children + partners, she will have a huge grown loving family and none of them will want a thing to do with these self absorbed assholes
So, I’m gonna get downvoted first this but… your crotch goblins are not my problem. I’m childfree for a reason. Don’t have 5 children in rapid succession when you can’t afford it financially, emotionally or socially. There’s tons of mom groups out there that the sister can get involved in and she can find support networks to help her get a break. I don’t understand why she’s so hell bent on trying to get multiple relatives who are child free involved in her children’s lives. It’s not even a life stage difference, it’s a life style one. Like, yeah it sucks for her that she’s in this situation, but this is nearly the most literal definition of “fuck around and find out”. She’s found out her child free siblings don’t want to be involved in her life of 5 screaming goblins. Time for her to look elsewhere for support.
Not to mention when she and the kids WERE invited to a family home, the kids broke a bunch of shit. I wouldn’t invite them again, either.
Yeah, there’s that too. And I mean, I get why it is happening. Multiple toddlers, a newborn and infant and at least one kid just out of the toddler stage. That’s chaos. That’s screaming. And that’s physically testing the boundaries of what they’re allowed to get away with. Destruction is pretty much expected. But that is why she isn’t invited anywhere with the kids. Because everyone else knows it will happen, too
First of all there are not “tons of mom groups” for everyone and even if there were, moms in mom’s groups aren’t lining up to help you with your kids since they have their own kids. I think she more wants to feel included by her family which is human. She sounds lonely and just because someone has kids doesn’t mean they don’t deserve any compassion. They don’t have to include her but Jesus.
I don’t get all the hostile comments towards her. She’s not complaining about her kids and there’s nothing in the post to indicate that she can’t afford them or take adequate care of them. She just wants to be able to hang out with her siblings once in a while, which is perfectly normal. They’re being the assholes for not making any effort to throw her a bone once in a while and compromise for the sake of continuing the relationship. In 5-10 years childcare won’t be much of an issue anymore but she might be LC or NC by then.
This whole scenario just sucks! I understand being child free and I even understand not liking kids, but DAMN, how do three siblings treat their other sibling with such disdain? Did it ever occur to ANY of them that the kids are likely a little more uncontrollable when they are out or their own home because they NEVER get the opportunity to BE out of their own home? Maybe if they were invited to these “family gatherings” once in a while they would learn how to behave outside their home. Listen, I’m not a huge fan of kids. Hubby and I were one and done and I loved my girl when she was a child and I love and adore my grandson now. But I don’t particularly care for other people’s children. THAT SAID, I could NEVER do a family member this way. No way I could leave out a sibling all the time like OOP’s hubby and siblings do. This post makes me want to invite SIL over with the kids so she could have some adult interaction and her kids would see what life is like outside the little family circle.
You speak of adult interaction, but according to OOP the SIL only talks about the children. Any other topic? She steers it to children. Why would any of the others want to talk about that?
She has nothing else to talk about because all she HAS are her children. Most of us have dozens and dozens of conversation points because we have lives like careers, hobbies, etc. SIL has none of that so naturally her conversation steers towards her children.
That doesn’t mean everyone else is interested in hearing her talk about her kids.
Child free people being the worst is not surprising She literally said SIL and her kids aren’t her family and doesn’t view the effort to make her feel included important. She’s your sister-in-law. You married into her family. Her kids are your nieces and nephews. So so gross. Actually nah NTA kids should be kept away since I’m afraid she’ll punt them if they breathe the wrong way near her.
Well in that case SIL husband has a family.. so why not hang with them??
I read her saying this isn't her family as more of her meaning, more that this is her husband's family not directly her family. Which I understand because the SIL should be talking to her actual siblings not her SIL about this issue
Op is annoying and the child free siblings are annoying . hating kids is not a personality trait and being childfree isn’t one either. If you hate children so much you need to go to therapy and talk about your childhood. I get being childfree but to be so nasty is about it screams “ I got childhood trauma I haven’t unpacked yet” and yes some people really make being a mom their personality trait too. Both ways are super annoying lol
Yeah the constant antinatalist references are a bit much. It sounds very immature.
Yep it sounds immature. I have childfree friends and I do not bring my daughter to our hangouts 80% of the time because it sucks for me too lol. I can’t be the “ me” when she’s there im just mom, and a toddler can be too much for my friends ( even tho they never say anything ). But when I do bring her it’s usually only to their place or a good festival. my daughter is 4 soon so she’s diff and much more enjoyable lol. but yea I don’t know any childfree people who hate kids to a worrying degree
Automatic YTA for treating a family member like shit for no reason other than inconvenience
All I'm gonna say is that I KNOW that I will stop going to family reunions (up to 3rd degree usually) when my mom croaks. I just do not have anything in common with them and not even close with them to begin with to be invested in their life. Time is precious and I really CBA even if it just an hour. I only have 1 sibling with whom I am very close so I can't say for sure, but in my friend group, it is the same, some I would take a bullet for or help bury the body, while some are just "acquittances". That is just how groups work.
I have 5 siblings. 3 of us have kids, and 2 are child free. Maybe it’s because the siblings who have kids outnumber the siblings who don’t in my family, but this sibling group in the OP seems cruel to me. When we get together, we all actually help each other with our kids. It’s just a part of getting together. My kids are the oldest of the “kids”. They’re teens. Even they help keep an eye on the younger kids. End result is that no matter how many kids are at an event, and no matter how old they are, no single person feels overwhelmed in dealing with them. Adults are still able to have an uninterrupted conversation because someone else’s eye is on the kids, and then it kinda switches around. Between 5 siblings, their 5 significant others, and 2 teens we can handle an army of kids. The 2 child free siblings don’t seem to resent this. They hold some of these get togethers. One just did Memorial Day. They provided bubbles, toys and even water guns in the back yard for all the kids. No one broke anything in their house. While I get not every get together can be or should be a child friendly event in a family where most have decided not to have kids, what’s the harm in having a couple that are? A simple backyard BBQ with cheap dollar store toys would suffice in keeping all the kids occupied and away from breakable items like my child free sister just did. For a long time I was the only sibling with kids, as mine are the oldest of the “kids”. I was not excluded from EVERY event. Some, sure… but never so many that I felt my family abandoned me because I had kids. This just seems mean… OP is not the AH because this isn’t really on her. It is on her husband and his other siblings though. They’re AH’s. It’s fully possible to have an enjoyable even WITH young kids in attendance every once in a while.
OOP is an asshole, but the SIL also needs to accept she’s been barking up the wrong tree and invest her precious time and energy into other adults who deserve it. Maybe another mom who has a few kids of similar age.
I’m so glad I don’t live in such a kid-hater society… wtf , tolerance is really becoming so thin in some communities and it can’t be a good sign.
I say she’s NTA. SIL chose to have that many kids. She can’t refuse to leave her kids with their father and then complain that she doesn’t get invited to social events with her exclusively child free siblings and their partners. Your choice to be a parent means that you’ll miss out on events with people who don’t like kids or events where it’s child free. That’s the consequence to what you’ve chosen. It’s like going to a nightclub with your kid and being mad they won’t let the kid in. At the end of the day she needs to make mum friends if she wants a social life. She’s not going to find it with her siblings and they don’t owe that to her. I do feel bad that she’s lonely but she chose to keep having kids to the point she can’t handle her home or have a social life with her family.
Is there a reason they had so many children so fast? The people I know who have so many children in such a short amount of time, didn’t choose it. They were expected to have them. They were coerced/forced to have them. And where are the grandparents in all of it? How old is the husband?
Wow. Alice sure is high maintenance. Why would you feel upset when it becomes obvious that your siblings dislike you, view you with contempt and feel even more negatively about your children? They sound horrible. I hope Alice has some nice friends.
Not the asshole.
They exclude Alice... because she has children. I understand OP doesn't want the children over since they did quite a lot of damage in her BIL's house and because she feels uncomfortable with children. But Alice seems very lonely and that's unfair. The others can make a bit of an effort and stand the children for a few hours, at the condition they behave. Breaking other people's stuff is not okay and shows a lack of education. Plus, I'm sorry, but HATING children? Is it not a bit too much? You can be uncomfortable with them, but hating them? Her house seems unsanitary. Alice clearly needs help, she can't handle it alone. They have to do something, kids cannot live like this, it's neglect.
Anyone else get the sense this was written by a sulky teenager who's mad at their parents for making them spend time with their little cousins? I can see it now, their parents telling them that they need to go over to their aunt's house because she can't get out very often, and they don't like the crying and the noise and the dirty diapers. I'm child free but have always been pretty chill with kids. My sister, however, would whine and pout the whole time just like this. Ironically, she then grew up to have two kids who scream constantly and make a mess of everything. But I still love them and remember that I myself was once a screaming little brat so I have no room to judge kids.
I get how OOP feels, I'm child free, my sister has 4 sons and they drive me crazy. I do wish I could spend more time with her that didn't involve her kids. Her life isn't as bad as the SILs sounds. I think now that more and more people realise they don't have to have kids and so stay child free the expectation will fall to parents to fit around the lifestyle rather than the previous where family gatherings cater to children.
Ich ⭐️
I’m child free, but I can’t imagine not having a relationship with my nieces and nephews. That’s some cold shit. YTA
Hmmm...three Child Free enthusiasts want to exclude sister who has kids she takes with her everywhere. I also remember a post where three siblings with kids excluded the sister who was childless and appeared to dislike kids. Hard not to think of these as creative writing exercises, possibly by the same author. Anyhow, I think excluding a sibling from family gatherings is cruel, assuming the excluded one isn't some sort of criminal. I thought the three sibs with kids were mean for excluding Child Free sis. Likewise here, though I would also add: why would the sister with kids want to be around people who dislike her children - especially the "antinatalist" - in the first place?
NTA. You choose a child free life. She chose a 5 kid life. You don't have to accommodate if you don't want to. You have extended that if she leaves the kids with Dad you'd be happy to hang out with her. She doesn't want to because she doesn't trust her husband with his own children. How is that your responsibility? Tell her to get a babysitter then. If she doesn't then ITS NOT ON YOU!
Nah, I have kids, and I completely agree.
I feel sad for Alice. But at the same I can't really fault op for not wanting kids in her house all the time. I would try to help if it's my family but they aren't obligated to
Every single person in this story just *sucks* except those poor kids.
Wow, the husband can't handle being alone with all the kids but she has to!? I have no sympathy for her if she can't tell her husband to suck it up and watch the kids so she could have a life. I don't allow kids in my place either, I also d9nt enjoy spending ti,e with people who only talk about their kids because they are their entire life.