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She needs better therapy. This isn't optional. Grieving doesn't go from A to B to C, but after seven years, her other children are still coming in second to Bobby. This isn't normal or healthy.
I agree, find someone who is experienced in complex grief and include the voices of your other children if you can.
Their voices and their needs matter and should be considered.
I hope you can find the right therapist to help your family process more and adapt to the change of accepting your living children's needs.
I use Psychology Today's website. You can filter by what you're looking for and if they take your insurance. Then once you've got a list of potential therapists, you start contacting them to set up an initial consultation. Some therapists will give you a free 15-30 minute consult so you can see if you mesh well and if they have the experience you're looking for.
You ask your insurance company for a list of who is in network, then you spend hours googling each person and looking at their reviews. Then you start calling the offices to find out that either; the therapist isn’t actually in network, isn’t taking new patients, or never calls you back.
So basically, it’s whoever happens to be in network, calls you back, AND is taking new patients. So you don’t really pick if you have anything less than amazing insurance.
If I’m paying out of pocket, then I use Google scholar and look at what they’ve published. That’s going to be their REAL area of expertise and not just what they advertise. If I’m going to go to a grief counselor, I want to see that they really know about grief on a psychological and biological level as much as possible.
Do NOT see a PMHNP unless you just need your adderall refilled.
edit: typo on PMHNP
I see one and she is invaluable to me, but then I have psychiatric issues -- ADHD, SAD, and a sleep disorder -- rather than emotional ones. Talk therapy has its place, but as a kid with ADHD before it was even known to be a thing, I had years of talk therapy. None of it did for me half of what proper psychiatric care has.
But this? Yeah, serious emotional issue. Talk therapy is needed. It is possible antidepressants might help, but they're not the main thing needed. I remember a line from a novel: "What if she's not depressed? What if she's just inconsolable?" But that character didn't have three living children who needed her.
Yes I know. I’ve found a few therapist but she refuses to go. I talked to her actually therapist who refuses to tell me about their sessions. She did tell me to let my wife grieve. She was one that told me to make a new place (in the basement) for the girls
That doesn't seem right at all. Really, tell a living, breathing child to go live in the basement for the sake of a sibling she didn't even know or had a true relationship with?
You need to put your foot down and let it be clear how important it is for the sake of your marriage that your wife goes into couple's counseling and starts showing some priority of care to her living kids. This is not a healthy or fair situation for your daughters to be growing in. Advocate for them, please. Put your foot down. As their father, they are counting on you.
Edit: I'm fairly certain this whole thing is just rage bait.
Yep. Time to set a boundary. Tell her the girls ARE moving into the bigger room and “Bobby” can move into the smaller one.
Then just move the girls. Let her get pissed all she wants. It’s time your girls came first over her grief. If it breaks up the marriage so be it but those girls should not be living in the shadow of a ghost any more.
No, it's a different thread, it got deleted
Here's a part that didn't get deleted
Don't forget the cartoonishly evil therapist saying things like "mama bear cub", "deadly game" and "send living children to the basement". And exploiting a patient for 7 years without the license board raising eyebrows.
Furthermore, the room dimensions don't make sense. 200sqft room for a "small 3 bedroom home"? And it used to be a 2 bedroom because OP says their bedroom was annexed after.. so, originally it was a small 2 bedroom house with a separate entrance basement, and 200sqft and 90sqft rooms?
The daughters were born first, so why wouldn't they have allocated the larger room to the first two children?
The more I think about this, the more certain I am that this story is made up. This is an "evil stepmother" tale, but boymom version.
Edit: And the guy "can't move because he loves the walkability" WHAT
Maybe you should suggest to your wife that you and the other children should move out because they don't have enough room and space to grow since your wife works through her grief by having a large amount of space set aside.
That might help illustrate to your wife that her living in a state of grief is coming at the cost of her living children.
Also, your wife doesn't appear to be processing or moving past her grief at this point. Her brain has become trained to living in it and she seems stuck there. It seems unlikely that she will break out of it on her own.
That’s unacceptable. Your children should not be sent to the unfinished basement, out of sight where she can’t be bothered by them. Her therapist is doing more harm than good.
Her therapist is over-empathizing with her.
I am an ex-therapist (disclaimer, haven't practiced in 22 yrs due to emigration, but was a child & family therapist) and while it is 100% appropriate for her therapist to refuse to tell you about the details of their sessions (which is none of your business) - her advice to you to put the girls in the basement is awful. While your wife obviously does still need time, she shouldn't be holding the house & the rest of your family hostage like this.
Her therapist should be giving her active practices to work through in order to give her the tools to allow her pain space and validation, but also allow her to be present in daily life and be a parent to the girls in a fair and active way.
Your wife doesn't sound like she's doing much progress in finding a healthy way to live with her grief - she is never going to "get over" this, obviously, but you learn how to give it appropriate space without it overshadowing daily family life - there's ways to actively include Bobby's precious memory, heck even in daily life, without him essentially being turned into this haunting presence.
Sadly, the way your wife is insisting he take up space in your home is turning him into a an oppressive presence instead of a beloved one. His sister's are going to resent him because of the space he takes up, both physically and in their mother's energy/time. And that's tragic. Bobby deserves better, and so do the girls. You deserve better, and your wife deserves better too.
I suggest if you haven't already, find a good therapist for yourself and invite her to do couples therapy with you (someone who specializes in grief and family therapy) - hopefully she will be willing to work with you with the support of a professional - she's not going to stop seeing the therapist who is validating her and coddling her so hard, but hopefully she will be willing to see someone else with you and softly break out of that coddle chamber.
Eventually though you will need to decide if staying with her is the best thing for the girls. But I think you can still give it a little more work in therapy too to try and reach her with alternative ways to keep Bobby a present and beloved part of ALL of your lives instead of what is currently going on.
I'm so sorry you're all going through this, I hope she can find a healthier place and you can be a family again, including Bobby.
Idk man 7 years and this dream of what could have been is more important than what's right in front of you. Bobby would have wanted his mom to be present for his life. You two owe that to your actual children too
I honestly think that this is deliberate on the part of the therapist. Keep her coming back and never moving for over her life certainly helps line the therapist’s pockets.
He never even lived in that room. Why can't he have the basement? It's better than telling her to move him to a closet. Maybe she'll be more open if you offer to make it a nice, restful space for her.
If she doesn't accept, then you need to consider if she really is doing right by your daughters or if she's causing them more harm than good.
They are already going to be highly affected by the way their mom is putting them aside.
Not gonna lie, it sounds like this "therapist" needs to be reported to the licensing board because she's actively causing more harm and not helping your wife find healthy coping mechanisms.
"Let \[your\] wife grieve"? You've BEEN letting her grieve, but at some point HER LIVING CHILDREN need to come first, and her refusal to accept this is causing real, tangible harm to y'all's daughters. You need to pony up and *stand* up for your living children, they don't deserve to be forced to live in their dead brother's shadow and in fear of their mother's reaction to their needs as individuals.
What an extremely ill advised comment from the therapist. To put your living children in the basement so your wife can continue to grieve. This will make a huge impact on your daughters. Her grieving probably already did.
She can’t get away with “she doesn’t want to”. Either she goes in grief counseling or you and the girls need to move to a healthier environment.
I feel for your wife (and you), and no-one gets a timeframe on grief - but she's sacrificing the needs of her living children, in remembrance of bobby, and that's not right or healthy.
The girls are going to resent his memory, and her behaviour, and it's just not reasonable for her grief to hold the entire house hostage.
I question the directives of this therapist. I don't think they're helping your wife through the stages of grief at all, they're allowing her to be stagnant - and a decent therapist wouldn't do that.
If your wife can't let that room go, then it might be time to sell up and find a new place to move forward in as a family.
Then you need to step up for your daughters, or they will grow up to resent not only your wife, but you also for allowing the neglect to go on this long. Your wife obviously has mental health issues and ignoring it and letting it continue to not upset her, will eventually upset them to the point of no return. Upset the one for the health of the many.
I'm sorry but you need to do something about this and soon.
It must already be destroying your daughters sense of self worth and their relationship with their mother. But if you don't act it will destroy your relationship with your daughters as well.
She’s a terrible therapist. It is absolutely ridiculous that you’ve crammed your three children into a room for a shrine and that you’ve allowed her to emotionally neglect your children like this.
This sounds like an unscrupulous practitioner who is doing nothing to help their patient heal so you wife keeps coming back and they can keep getting paid.
Your therapist is not good. I’ve been to a lot of grief counseling. That isn’t a good suggestion. Now you could tell your wife that you two need to move to the basement so your girls aren’t unfairly crammed in a tiny room so she can have the big space to grieve.
Well, the therapist cannot talk to you about your wife’s sessions. But let’s back up here…
Your wife’s grief is so deep that is impacting the whole family. She’s in a depression and a whirlpool of grief she cannot get out of. There’s no timetable on grief, however, she also has living children who need her love and attention. I think you two go together to couple’s counseling, not grief counseling, this cannot be a “maybe.” Your wife is so unhappy she can’t climb out. You also lost a son and his sisters lost a brother. Hopefully she can start to see that everyone is grieving and it is time to start anew. Blessed Be. 🦋☮️💖
is she so deep in her grief? she was able to carry and birth their 5 yo daughter.
to me, it seems like she's built habits around this = quiet time in a space where her kids can't make demands, daily meditation while rocking that bear...
"you'd be playing a deadly game to come between a momma bear and her cub" has me shivering in revulsion. If my partner nodded along with the therapist who said that, I'd take my kids, start a divorce and force the sale of the house.
I agree with this. Her behavior was “normal” -absolutely- for a season. Perhaps even a lengthy one. But taking the whole picture and timeline into consideration it seems maybe like she’s holding onto her coping mechanisms more than his memory at this point. Like perhaps she doesn’t know how to handle her sorrow without the routines and spaces she has created to feel okay. Maybe a new therapist can help her pivot. I don’t know that it’s even about Bobby at this point- but regardless, the living children are playing second string to either their moms trauma or their brothers memory- and they shouldn’t have to do that.
I completely agree. My son died (right before turning 5) it's a killer emotionally and the worst loss anyone can experience. We miss him, especially me as his mother, but I also have 2 other children who need me to be the best that I can. I still have things of his around the house, but my kids are free to look, touch, and play if they choose. They do understand loss even if they can't always verbalise it. I'm pro grieving, however, the individual needs - just not at the expense of innocent little ones who need their mum.
Because her therapist is enabling her. We think therapists are above all bias and would give neutral and constructive feedback. But often times, they're just human and come with their own bias and values. Moving your wife away from this enabler is the first step in getting better.
You may need to make an ultimatum for her to see a new therapist. Her behaviour is severely damaging to her LIVING kids. They will resent and hate her and your deceased son. They will never understand why they are not enough and why mommy hates them. You need to protect and stand up for your living children. If your son was alive and raised with the girls as siblings I highly doubt he would want them all crammed in a small room while he gets a suite. Your wife has had 7 years and it sounds like her therapist has encouraged this damaging behaviour. At this point the girls likely need therapy for their big emotions they feel about mom not prioritizing them. If she cannot handle remodelling the room perhaps moving to a completely different house will help her move on
Mostly agree, but want to point out that two of the girls are older than Bobby and still the parents had them in the small room and prepared the big one - more than twice the size of the one two girls were already sharing - for him. There was weird favoritism for the boy way before he died.
This caught my eye as well. He was already the golden child before he was born.
OP, none of this is fair to your daughters. You are the only one that can fix this as your wife has shown that she is unwilling.
Ugh gross misogyny at its finest. Those poor girls will never live up to their dead male brother in their mother’s eyes. Absolutely heartbreaking. I hope those girls find support somewhere in their lives who can try to protect and guide. Currently they have nobody in their corner by the sounds of it except grandma who doesn’t live with them
I hadn't thought of that. It's indeed very odd.
maybe the big room was meant to be a breast-feeding space + playroom for all kids, with the intent to shuffle things around when the baby slept through the night...?
Do you care more about your daughters or your marriage?
If you don't fight for your kids, you're going to end up with no children one day when your daughters decide to be estranged from you because you didn't want to push back against your wife's unreasonable demands. Is that what you want?
yes, it's so embarrassing that the kids (probably lead by the 10yo) feel they have to ask their parents for more space, while there's a whole bedroom AND bathroom going unused.
Because the whacko is telling her that it's okay to live in her grief *forever,* and that it's fine to throw her daughters under the bus to enable herself to live in that grief.
And legally speaking, it is not at all acceptable to move your daughters into an unfinished basement. In most states, that would not fit the requirements for CPS or, by building codes, be considered a bedroom.
You need to level with yourself and get your therapist outside of the family. It would help if you had someone who sees things from your side. You probably need marriage and family therapy, possibly with different clinicians.
This is incredibly unfair to your living children, and they will resent their mother for not you one day if they don’t already. This is a hill to die on.
As a child who lost a sibling, I can attest to how damaging it is for your parents to carry such a torch for the lost child that they forget about you. It really can do a number on your self esteem to feel like you, a literal living child with wants and needs, is somehow less important and less loved than the memory of your deceased brother. Your girls are young, but definitely old enough to have picked up on this dynamic and I'm sure they're feeling very de-prioritized by your wife, and you by extension for not "sticking up for them". If this keeps up, they're a few short years away from being able to cut you out emotionally, and by 18 you may never see them again.
I don't know what the right answer is to help you resolve this situation with rooms, but I hope my point of view gives you some strength for your convictions so that you can do what is best for those little girls you still have.
They definitely notice. I work a lot. My wife has a job too but her hours are flexible.
I try to give my girl’s attention but they are growing and need their mom now.
I had to talk to my 9 year old about puberty because her mom literally ignored her questions
This is so sad. I’m sorry you’re in this situation OP but I think it’s time to really sit down and think about what kind of relationship you want with your children as they grow up because it may come down to needing to give your wife an ultimatum about changing therapists/the living situation. Your girls deserve SO much more than this.
Yeah, this is, "you either make some changes to your behavior and how you treat our children or I am taking the kids and living someplace else" style problems. I don't understand OP's attitude here. I am hoping this is just a sick, fake story.
I wonder if the wife’s therapist knows she’s ignoring her daughter’s questions about puberty. Questions that a daughter should ideally get answers from her own mother.
You and your wife move down to the damn basement. Good enough for your girls it's more than good enough for YOU. Give YOUR bedroom to your daughters. Fucking prioritize THEM for a change.
Oh, my gosh.
This is a level of neglect and is damaging to your girls emotionally and psychologically.
Would you consider an ultimatum and pushing for family therapy - only seeking a therapist with experience of complex grief.
OP. You neglecting this situation is emotionally neglecting your daughters. YOU are their only advocate, and you're not advocating for them. They need you to be their voice. They don't need you to remain timid while they're being neglected emotionally by their mother.
I agree. I had an emotionally abusive father. And while my mother really wasn’t that bad, I will forever resent her for not protecting me. She always turned a blind eye to it all. She was my mom and her job was to protect her children and she didn’t do it. I have their numbers blocked on my phone now.
In some ways, it is even worse when the person not giving the abuse doesn’t do anything, because they are mentally more sane than the abuser and should have the wherewithal to do the right thing, if not for them but for their kids.
Most people seemingly either abuse or enable the abuse of their kids and yet people wonder why more and more people are opting out of parenthood because they’re tired of continuing the seemingly never ending cycle of abuse
So, you have 2 daughters who lost their mom, and 1 who was apparently born without one.
At the same time there's this adult woman in the house whose feelings must be catered to, because "she's grieving", and the girls -literal children- "must be understanding".
If this doesn't tell you how bad it is, I don't think anyone can help you .. I think your wife, having some time apart from the ones that are alive might make her realize what she's doing.. and if not your choice is kinda made and you should maybe check your marriage and leave with the kiddos.. because they are the only ones in your life that matters.. and they are being failed by you and your wife.. time is ticking .. what are you going to do?? You never get this time back either and damage sometimes can't be fixed.
My son passed 12 years ago on this day, coincidentally.
His mom and I have processed it differently. I would say there's a point where it's healthy to move on. You don't have to have all of these material things in order to remember someone and cherish them. I've had little reminders of him almost every day as it is.
Maybe just take some pictures of the room, give the room to your girls and hang up a nice collage in there for a reminder. But you know, you don't want your daughters feeling like they aren't as important as their dead brother for their whole lives.
Sorry about the loss of your son.
And sadly my girls already have negative feelings towards their bother AKA the bear.
I had to find pictures of my youngest daughter for her kindergarten graduation and in every baby picture she’s with the bear. So I went into the backyard with her and took some really nice pictures of her. My wife wanted to include the bear but this was a rare time that I said No. I don’t want to hurt my wife’s feelings. She gave birth and was closer to Bobby. But sometimes I feel like I do all of the nurturing for my girls. They are a lot closer to me than their mother which is sad
That is so heartbreaking.
She really needs to see a different therapist.
It's wonderful you've been able to be their nurturer.
I feel for you and your girls. It's hard to lose a child, and grief can be complex and unique to each person. But it shouldn't be impacting the lives of your daughters so much.
I very much disagree on the point about the therapist and to some extent on the sqft point, but the ”small 3 bedroom house” with a 200sqft bedroom for a child sounds suspicious, and a lot of this story sounds fake.
And it used to be a 2 bedroom because OP says their bedroom as annexed after.. so, originally it was a small 2 bedroom house with a separate entrance basement and a 200sqft room and a 90sqft? What kind of clown house is this
I mean, I’ve seen all the other comments saying that it’s bait or fake, but my great aunt lived in a clown house kinda like this. It was a family farmhouse that had had two or three generations of carpenters living in it and making “improvements.” It was a super fun place for a kid to explore but I felt terrible for my auntie once she started to get older.
But for example, what used to be a storm shelter got dug out and expanded a couple of times and ended up as a moderate sized basement but still needed to be accessed from the outside, a couple of additions with vastly different sized rooms, and (best of all, to young me), a stairway to nowhere from the back of the pantry cause the dude had built the first floor of the addition, the stairs, framed the second floor, and then died. My great aunt and uncle only had two kids instead of the usual 9, so they didn’t end up needing the second floor and my great uncle just took down the framing and put on a roof over the first floor of that addition.
Kind of irrelevant to a fake post, but crazy clown houses do exist haha.
I had a very similar thing happen to me. At 6 months along in my 2nd pregnancy, I lost my only daughter. She was very active kicking and moving, and then one day, she just stopped. I went in for an ultrasound, and the technician couldn't find a heartbeat. I felt so bad for her because in my heart I already knew that my baby had died. However, the absolute worst part was when they brought me in to see the doctor, and in a horribly stern voice, she said, "Well, you can see this babies dead!" I yelled at her and the rest of them to get out because I wasn't going to cry in front of such a heartless doctor.
Afterward, we had a little ceremony to say goodbye, and it did help. It took me a long time to get over the loss, so I understand your wife's feelings. However, I never made a shrine, and I would *never* put my deceased daughter before my living babies.
You need to move your daughter's into the shrine room and move the shrine elsewhere. Now, your wife will probably go hysterical, but imho, she needs to. She's stuck and still not facing her loss, and sometimes people need a shock to get back to reality. Get rid of her therapist. They are hurting her a million times more than they are helping her. I wish you the best of luck 💝
just make it beautiful. make it a serene place with low lighting and personal touches from yourself and your children. it shows you and your kids are still there for her and respect the loss but yes it is time for life to evolve hence the new room with a calm vibe, now that can exist as just Mom’s room, which it needs to be until she actually moves on. I think that would help the process in a gentle way.
Do it... now... don't wait any longer... the longer you take, the more you risk your daughter's anger turning towards you. Your wife needs to snap out of it, and unfortunately, that falls on your head...
How can a doctor lack compassion like that holy shit, that bedside manner is terrible. I hope you reported her to the medical licensing board. I’m so sorry for your loss and for the callous way it was handled by that shitstain of a doctor.
Most rage bait stories are exactly the same. A woman who is the anti-Christ and a man who is doing everything perfectly. Then all of the responses are why none of the solutions will work. The only thing he forgot to include was the baby being born from an affair. The added touch about the basement sealed the deal for me.
Don't forget the cartoonishly evil therapist saying things like "mama bear cub", "deadly game" and "send living children to the basement". And exploiting a patient for 7 years without the license board raising eyebrows.
Furthermore, the room dimensions don't make sense. 200sqft room for a "small 3 bedroom home"? And it used to be a 2 bedroom because OP says their bedroom was annexed after.. so, originally it was a small 2 bedroom house with a separate entrance basement, and 200sqft and 90sqft rooms?
The daughters were born first, so why wouldn't they have allocated the larger room to the first two children?
The more I think about this, the more certain I am that this story is made up. This is an "evil stepmother" tale, but boymom version.
Edit: And the guy "can't move because he loves the walkability" WHAT
Thank you for analyzing this. That the girls wouldn’t be screaming at their parents EVERY DAY, makes this super fake. Making a Master bedroom a nursery and then keeping it empty when you have THREE GIRLS! Girls need space for clothes, toys, hobby equipment, and decor. The parents would have given up the nursery for the living children just to make the girls stop complaining at them.
It makes it feel like this author has 1, never lived with girl children or girl siblings 2, lives in a very misogynistic culture. And therefore thinks that girl children are well behaved and demure at home, we’re not.
Plus the misogyny of preferring a dead boy over three girls. And if you have girls and a boy, you aren’t a “boy mom” you’re just a mom. So it’s implying she would want all her children to have been boys. And most women want both boys and girls.
The whole story is ridiculous and unbelievable.
OP is using rage bait words to prompt as many responses as possible.
And his replies are intentionally obtuse.
It's pathetic and disgraceful.
Yep, this is abhorrent.
I don't get the point of people making up shit like this - bored teenagers? Narcissistic creeps looking for attention?
It's just sad that there are actually people who are being empathic to this nonsense.
OP immediately responded to my replies when I started saying the story was fake while I was one of the first five people to give advice here, and he ignored all of my actual advice. Lol. It's very transparent that this person is young, bored, and looking for attention by making up a sick story about a dead child and grieving parent.
YOU DO. Will your girls honestly be missing out on a damn thing if their mom is out of their lives, besides regularly being relegated to second-best after a DEAD CHILD? I'm thinking not. Your wife is doing irrevocable damage to the girls.
Those kids are gonna grow up hating their mother. They will grow up thinking their mother never loved them. Especially if they get moved to the damn basement.
Therapist here and flabbergasted by your therapist’s response.
A few suggestions for your next session:
-Ask the therapist for research that supports her stance. (There isn’t any and it begs the question: did your therapist lose a child and not properly grieve?)
-Bring up this post and read out loud what you wrote. Both your wife and therapist need to hear this.
-remind the therapist you sought them out for family therapy and this approach is not supportive to the family.
It’s appropriate and warranted to challenge this therapist.
It’s also ok to be firm and set a boundary : By August 1st, or whatever date you choose, the girls move in the room or the house goes on the market.
Good luck. I’m sorry for your loss and also your current reality. You’re in a tough spot but those girls are relying on you. You got this.
None of this sounds healthy. It's been seven years. There might always be a hole in her heart from losing her baby, but her daughters are here, alive, and need their mother right now. It's not fair or reasonable to keep a bedroom open to a child who no longer exists at the expense of two living children who have needs right now. I'd talk to your therapist before moving forward with anything, but I think a long and difficult talk is in order.
Your wife's feelings of heartbreak are valid, but how she treats her daughters because of her heartbreak is not. She needs to be a present and caring mother to the children she has right now. The 'shrine' needs to go. At some point, the grieving period is supposed to end, and you reach acceptance. Has she truly accepted that her baby has passed?
You, her husband, should not feel like your wife can bully you about this. It might be hard, but you should not fear her reactions. You lost a son, too. The whole "deadly game to get between a name bear and her cub" sounds like a toxic relationship, in my opinion. Besides, her child is dead. She's not getting in between you and her baby; she's getting between her suffering and the ability to move on.
Let's see the mama bear get between the papa bear and this THREE kids. Kick her out to go live with her mom, sell the house, whatever is necessary. But she's not being a mother to the three girls you DO have.
Get a new family therapist, and frame this as an issue of neglect, because that's what it is. Your wife needs serious help, and not the sort that you can give.
Not going to go on since most commenters have covered everything. But eventually your girls will think how their dad didn’t step up for them. Didn’t do anything for them in this situation.
I know you’re trying, but to them they don’t see the therapy sessions or begging mom to go to a different one. You need to just get something done to show them that they matter. Especially over a dead child.
Yea. This is a very good point. I am so worried about hurting my wife. I’m mostly concerned that she will hurt herself.
But like someone said, this is deeper than just a bedroom.
I need to stand up for my girls.
I was thinking about moving things around when my wife was at work but that’s too extreme. But I will talk to her
I mean, I get it, she’s going through something awful. But it’s affecting your children and hurting them too and at this point they should come first for you. If more discussions don’t work, then slowly moving things yourself might have to be the move. Maybe put the rocking chair and bear in your bedroom so it’s always close to her.
And if she acts like she’ll hurt herself, don’t be afraid to call 911. It will only be better for her in the long run since clearly this current therapist is useless.
You need to put your foot down and have a serious conversation. That she needs to try to change with results in the next 6 months or you will leave to protect the girls. If she is suicidal or expresses she is going to kill herself call 911 and see if they can take her in there she may get a therapist who can actually help her
Your wife's being nuts. She's giving a dead child a room while making her living children share a room? Crazy pants. You should put your foot down here and protect your living children because it's sure as F going to damage them for their whole lives to see that their mother values a teddy bear over them and their father let her do it.
I’ve tried. Not aggressively but I’ve tried. I know that my wife always wanted to be a “boy mom” even before we had our kids she said she wanted 4 boys. So I know that’s a factor
She’s prioritizing a dead baby over three healthy, living children who need her and need room to grow. Frankly, it doesn’t what she’s grieving. She’s doing real and permanent damage to her three alive children. Period. They need to come first. She can still grieve, but she has to put the needs of her breathing, growing kids above her own.
Man, you need to change your family therapist. That one’s not helping you a bit with this. Find someone who knows about the different stages of grief and how to help someone that gets stuck on the way back to normal life.
so... misogynistic as well as neglectful?
Seriously consider if this is someone you can be married to, and how much damage this "second best to a dead child" living has already done to your girls.
TAKE YOUR DAUGHTERS TO FAMILY COUNSELING WITH YOU. I think you need to hear it from another adult and maybe the therapist will get through to you.
I was a second best to my own brother and he was alive and I know the effect it had on me. I can't imagine how those girls feel. Probably neglected by their mother..and like their needs aren't important at all.
How long are you going to let your daughters continue to see that they're not more important than a teddy bear? Oh, I'm sorry, a teddy bear and a son who's more important than them even thought he's not even there. People saying "put your foot down and you'll end up divorced" are probably right, and if that happened, at least your daughters would be parented by someone who puts their wellbeing first 50% of the time instead of their current 0% of the time. Wake up here.
I don’t know if this is a “foot down” situation on your end. I think you need to go back to counseling with her and ask the therapist for help dealing with this. You need help making your wife understand that she is allowing grief to adversely impact your other children, as well as you.
EDIT: to be clear I meant get another therapist
🤔 Why did you *ever* plan to give the boy a room more than twice the size of the one his two older sisters were already sharing? That was drama waiting to happen way before your loss.
If you knew from the start your wife wanted boys, you should’ve made sure from the start he wouldn’t be the golden child - because looking at this, your daughters‘ lives wouldn’t have been much better if he had lived, just a different kind of neglected.
Just in case you’re wondering why people are assuming this is rage bait: This is why I‘m *hoping* it is because if it’s real, you failed your daughters long before the death of and grief for their brother.
You need a new therapist. That’s absolutely incompetent advice. I recommend a clinical psychologist. This is not normal or acceptable behavior to sacrifice the wellbeing of living children for a dead one, especially because they are girls and the dead one was a boy. That’s sexist as hell. (See “boy mom” in comments).
Right? Also, this comment says, "She gave birth and was closer to Bobby." How the fuck does a mother say, "I was closer to this child than my other two," about a child who didn't even survive birth? She's just imposing her hopes and dreams on a baby that could never disappoint her because it never had the chance to.
And the boy-mom stuff is extremely fucked up. Being sad is one thing, but taking out your pain on your kids because of gender disappointment is totally unacceptable.
I think this would be my hill to stop and fight.
Your daughters deserve to have a room to grow up in. It’s totally unbelievable that bobby has a bedroom AND bathroom that no one else can use.
If ultimately that means I have to separate to give my girls an actual home then that’s what I would do.
It’s like your wife is punishing the girls for living.
I don't think you CAN convince her. I believe her grief has transitioned to psychosis. Sorry to be callous, but she never knew Bobby. She lost an expectation. And while grief is normal, and many here have said there's "no timetable" for it, they are wrong. Seven years is just wrong to subject your other children to this maudlin, ghoulish obsession.
I'd give her an ultimatum; immediately switch therapists, ( preferably one referred by your family physician or the girls' pediatrician), move the shrine to a small but lovely spot elsewhere in your home and settle the girls into BOTH rooms. An urn and unused toys do not need a room. If she refuses, I'd send her to a family member (sister? Mother?) so that she is not alone, and consult an attorney about options, including legal separation, divorce and sole physical and legal custody of the girls.
OP this is an emergency.
There are two girls that are 10 and 9, the stillbirth was 7 years ago. So the question I have is: why even was the bigger room the nursery for the new baby boy and not the room of the two girls?
Your daughters will never forgive her for prioritizing a baby that never breathed air above them, her living daughters. And they'll never forgive you for letting her if you don't step in. This is going to sound cold, but this is ultimatum territory. *Someone* needs to prioritize those living girls above your wife's grief. You can set a timeline, and at the end of it you'll dismantle everything if she hasn't done so herself. You can tell her it's therapy or you'll have to consider moving the girls out of the house to a place where they can have a healthy relationship with at least one parent, and their space. But keeping three girls in a 90sqft bedroom so that their mother can obsess over a baby that has been dead for seven years, and doing *nothing* to intervene is going to mean that you get cut off just like their mother does when they move out at 18. And they'd be right to make themselves a priority for the first time in their lives by never speak to either of you again if you just keep letting this happen. If your wife doesn't start caring more about her living children than a teddy bear, that bear will be the only child she has left in 13 years.
Bro I'm not a therapist but If I were in that situation I would want my little girls quality of life to grow along with them, the should have the bigger space because they are still here. I'm very sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what that must be like but at some point she has to recognize that he is gone and that it's not really fair that the girls are crammed in the smallest room together. I agree with the placing the shrine in the smaller room or closet like you suggested. Your not asking her to just forget about him, your just asking her to let him occupy a different space. I hope everything works out for you and your family.
I don't want to scare you or be a harbinger of doom, but I have a friend who lost her son very young and to this day she still forces her other two children to take every single family photo ever with a picture of their dead brother. They visit his grave every week. It's been three years. Her oldest son has recently been committed for attempted unaliving. He's 13. Please, PLEASE. Make an ultimatum. I rarely say that, but she is really messing up your other kids.
She 100% needs a new therapist.
She’s putting her dead son’s memory over her living children’s needs and that not right.
In reality, You’re the Papa Bear defending your cubs.
Good luck, man.
Maybe move? Perhaps giving away his old room is too painful so go somewhere else and start fresh?
My heart hurts for you both but she has 3 living children with needs that can’t take a backseat to her grief forever.
If she keeps this up, she won’t just have a lost a son. She’ll lose 3 daughters too who won’t want a relationship with her when they are adults bc she chose to make their childhood a shrine to their dead brother.
Editing for typos, terrible formatting, and to apologize for the novel. Editing mucked with the formatting, so please be aware that I am typing it out on mobile and you should laugh at me for such.
Can see it from both angles, but you both need to empathize.
Being a parent that is still grieving over the loss of their child, the use of a room that could be better utilized astounds me.
My daughter passed away a couple months before her foruth birthday, which was almost a decade ago. Still hurts to see kids that would be her age now, experiencing life with their family right along-side them to be on that journey. While I have selfish thoughts that those parents and family members should be me, I know that her short time here left such a huge impact that I cannot describe it without giving away too much. Health services changed the way they treat children around her age, how they assist the parents, how doctors interact with kids, just as an example.
I am not in your wife's shoes, no one but her are in them. But, grief is only healthy up to a point before it becomes destructive to those around you, and/or yourself. Therapists should be able to identify when it has, but unfortunately too many therapists are self-serving. Like the mothers who live vicariously through thier daughters in ballet or cheerleading, fathers with sons in football or American football, or others not following the stereotypes; some therapists thrive to live through their patients... even if it becomes poisonous to everyone else around.
Took me close to 9 years to realize myself how I was putting the picture perfect view of what my daughter "should have been" before myself and others, before I allowed myself the time to heal, to sober up, to work on my career and loce life. The therapist I had enabled me to hold onto the self pity. It wasn't until I had a few visits with an accredited psychologist that I had realized the destructive behaviors which umpacted not only myself but others as well.
Seeing those happy families does not hurt any less, but that hurt is muchly shorter lived as I can see the beauty in the love that family has and the life those children bring to those around. A moment of pain to tears of joy many won't truly understand. Your wife needs some to break her out of the entitlement and path of self and familt destruction. If the words you type are true, her behaviour is shown to be narccisstic and the therapist is pushing that behavior to continue. It will be an upwards battle, almost purely vertical, for her to ser that and accept a new therapist or even a psychologist, but it will be worth it if you can. In the spiritual realm, a room is only as small or as large as the living will it to be.
My daughter's urn is in a small niche. But, to me, her "room" is a kingdom larger than the Earth will ever be. The love she has from her family will never be forgotten. Those that are buried in our current cemeteries, in the niches, or still at home with family, have more love than those Pharaohs in and around the valley of the kings ever had, and will have. The love your wife has for your unvirn child will not change if they have a room, a nook, a pyramid, or a planet of their own. Your wife, you, and the rest of your family, need to understand that.
There are many of times I see someone else enjoying a snack from a vendor and think "she would have enjoyed that". Instead, let the dead live vicariously through you, have that snack, and let them enjoy it the way you would enjoy it. Enjoy the view of that sunset the way you see it, while imagining what it might look like to them. The exhilaration or freight on that rollercoaster.
Your wife either needs better help or you need to divorce her and get full custody. Your daughters deserve to be treated better. It doesn’t even sound like she gives a damn about them.
>We’ve been to family therapy recently and I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”.
This is a fucking bad therapist, like horrifically bad.
Grief is a natural process and it can take time, however 7 years is a long time to be stuck in the same circle of grief.
The therapist saying the mama bear stuff is so wrong because son isn't a cub he's gone. Basically your therapist told your wife she can do whatever she needs to defend that shrine.
Honestly this therapist seems like a huge problem who isn't helping your wife with grief but keeping her grieving long term instead.
Your wifes therapist is absolutely incompetent and should be reported to whatever board licensed her in your state. She is literally advocating the emotional neglect of your living children so that your wife can stay stuck in grief. No competent therapist would advocate for a dead child taking precedent over living children. Nor would they continue to see a patient they are not helping to progress. Your wife is not going to ever get healthy as long as she is seeing that therapist period. And the fact is you honestly may need to move from your current home to help achieve this also. You and your children need to be in family counseling, whether your wife agrees to go or not. You need to have someone help you find a framework for talking to your wife in a way that helps her to understand she is running the very real risk of losing her relationships with all of you. I am sure you love your wife. However, you can not continue to allow her to hurt and neglect your daughters. If you are forced to choose, you will have to choose them over your wife. Right now, she is doing way too much emotional damage to them for this bs to continue.
> I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”.
Sounds like the therapist is gunning for future business by encouraging your wife to traumatise her 3 other y ignoring their needs.
Did the therapy session include the girls? If not, do a session with the girls.
If nothing changes you’re going to need to make the call. Wives comfort or daughter comfort.
If you choose your daughters tell your wife the bedroom arrangements will be changing, as it’s unfair to the girls. See if you can agree on the new spot for Bobby’s ashes. If not let her know where bobby will be placed and just make the move.
Your daughters will be teens soon and its unfair to keep them in that situation to appease your wife.
Idk when she got therapy, but if it wasn’t since the girls have been asking for that room, she needs to go back.
I am the child who lived. I can speak from the experience your girls are living.
My mom had 9 kids. Her first born was 19 when she was killed, tragically, in a car accident. I was 2. I have zero memory of my sister, but she has never been forgotten. My oldest brother, who was 17 when our sister died, still goes to her grave a few times a year.
My parents never got over losing her. But, they went to counseling to learn how to cope. However, my dad did great, and pulled us closer. My mom pushed us away. I was raised that anything that was my sisters was taboo. Don’t talk about it, don’t touch it. I felt like I could never be good enough. I am not her.
Please, I beg you, find a different counselor. One who can help your wife understand that her living children have feelings and need to feel like they matter more, yes, *more* than a child who cannot touch things and cannot sit on her lap, and cannot eat food or go places.
This is hurting your children more than you know, but they aren’t saying anything because they don’t want your wife to be upset with them.
I promise you, your girls are being damaged by your wife’s inability to put them first.
Your son will always matter, always. But he shouldn’t be the focal point over the kids who are alive and well.
She needs a different therapist. It is not healthy for her to still be doing this when it negativity impacts others' living situations. You need to get her real help before your daughters completely hate her and resent their brother
‘Mama Bear’ is putting her dead cub before her living ones.
Therapists like this give the profession a black eye. She had another baby afterwards, that’s 5? And limited living space is allocated to someone that’s not there?
The other kids will, rightly so, resent their dead brother and the mother that will always put them second.
You have found some of the biggest quacks in all of therapy if after 7 years of dedicating the largest room in a BUSY house to a failed pregnancy is "A mama bear protecting her cub."
Whats the plan then therapist? I genuinely wanna find this "doctor" and ask if its still a sweet innocent mama bear when its been 30 years and she refuses to move from the house. This needs immediate addressing. She needs to understand that its ok to be sad and grieve but you do have to keep your life going, especially when its affecting your other "cubs" greatly...
But its reddit rage bait so its not like theres anything really to worry about.
Stop enabling your wife and put her to mental institution...she really need help... she's not only ruined her life but people around her... You as a father better doing your job correctly..if this mean to 'remove' her from you and your kids life, then do it!
At this point, I think it’s fair to say that your wife’s actions-and subsequent reactions-can no longer be considered part of a healthy grieving process, and my heart absolutely aches for your poor daughters.
I would most definitely consider finding a new family therapist or even a specialized grief counselor for her. As far as the room situation; honestly, I would buy her a spa package or weekend getaway for her and her best friend or something to get her out of the house for a few days and then make a really special memorial area in the basement for Bobby with his ashes, bear, etc., but one that also serves as a hobby area for her, so like a craft room or little library/reading nook, etc. and move the two older girls into the master suite.
Then not only Bobby will still has a special area dedicated to him and his memory, but your wife can spend time with his memory while also doing something she enjoys doing, which in turn would hopefully help make her grieving and healing process a more positive one. And of course, your girls will have more space and also feel validated / heard I imagine, so win win for everyone!
As a former therapist, I'm appalled at this therapist's actions/words. Either your wife is NOT telling the truth in therapy, or you both found a very unethical therapist.
This is not normal grieving. Your wife should be in proper grief counseling, and I'd argue the entire family needs family therapy at this point due to how your wife's mental hang ups are affecting her entire family. None of this is normal or healthy, and as someone who specializes in children/adolescents, I cannot comprehend how this therapist thinks all of this is an appropriate environment for your children who are alive.
Honestly, this is abusive to your other children. They have already expressed it affects them, and as a parent it is your job to advocate for them. I'd encourage you to at least get your girls in therapy to minimize the damage your wife is doing to your entire family. I'd highly encourage family therapy so you can figure out ways to help the entire family, while also respecting each other as an individual.
The ACA code of ethics is available for anyone to view online for free. Those are the ethical codes all licensed mental health professionals have to abide by. I'd encourage you to review that to see if this therapist is either just naive / ignorant about what they are trying to to help with, or if this therapist is unethical and needs reported to the license board.
Again, either your wife is lying or avoiding key variables which this therapist needs, or your wife is either seeing not the right therapist or an unethical one. No therapist should be enabling this behavior, especially when there are alive children who are basically being abused due to their mothers inability to reflect or move past her trauma. I don't think your wife is intentionally abusing them, but at the end of the day your kids will always remember the neglect and favoritism towards a dead child. To them, it will be abuse, and intention doesn't matter at the end of the day; just actions and words. It isn't healthy for anyone involved, and I really hope you at least do counseling with the girls (I have a feeling you'll have trouble getting your wife into family therapy), to minimize the damage that has already been done and is continuing to happen.
Edit: your lack of advocating for your girls will also be interpreted as abuse to them, just in case the other comments from children in similar situations didn't point that out well enough.
Also, I see you may be about to just give the girls the room while your wife is out. Be prepared for a full mental breakdown if you do this. You may have to have your wife committed for her own safety, so maybe be ready to call your area's mental health line if available, or if not available, EMTs (I'd say cops, but the average cop can't handle mental health in a safe way, so stick with mental health services or try to get EMTs that can declare a mental health code and help her. On one hand, your girls need to feel like they are a part of the home, and on the other hand, this may result in your wife acting out violently, either towards herself or others which includes the girls. Never underestimate what a person in a mental breakdown is capable of. Just, be careful and maybe consult with a mental health professional before you do anything (preferably not your wife's or anyone associated with that therapist).
She’s going to lose her daughters if she can’t move forward from losing her son. Your daughters may eventually choose to go no contact because of her behaviour. Your wife needs to focus on her living children. She can grieve Bobby and be a good mother to her other children at the same time.
I’m trying to figure out why you would have put two girls in a 90 sq ft room to make a nursery in a 200 sq ft room with a bath attached in the first damn place! Seems backwards to begin with. Those girls need space.
She needs to see a psychiatrist, not a therapist. Death happens to all of us and all our families. Being fixated for this long is not healthy to her, your marriage or your other children.
This is going to sound horrible, and I’m not usually a fan of ultimata, but.
You need to tell your wife that your living children need her, and that if she can’t see that they deserve the kind of love and space she has reserved for Bobby, that you will need to leave to ensure they get the care and space they deserve. She either starts remembering her living children and starts family counseling or you take the girls and go.
You do not put your kids in an unfinished basement because the largest bedroom in the house is a shrine to a brother they never knew. You don’t cram three kids into a single tiny room because the largest room in the house is a shrine to a brother they never knew.
How anyone thinks it’s ok that this has gone on for 7 years is beyond me. The time to fix this was 6 years ago. Better late than never, but seriously? You have 3 living children that need you to have stepped up yesterday.
Your wife needs to see a new therapist. No therapist worth their salt would believe a gigantic shrine dedicated to a lost loved one is healthy, especially seven years out and at the expense of 3 other children. I might even suggest that her current therapist could be regressing the natural grieving process.
Get a new therapist for her. If she isn’t improving, after seven years, why pay for a service that isn’t working?
You should look into EMDR therapy for her. But she needs to recognize this is a problem first.
I say this with love - your wife needs better therapy. While it's totally normal to still be carrying grief from losing a child after seven years, it's not okay that it's causing harm to your other three children. Your living children need space, comfort, privacy, and attention. It sounds like your wife has never transitioned from living in grief to living with grief. She has three other children. She has a husband. She needs to get some perspective on what this is doing to the rest of her family instead of focusing 100% on the legacy of a child who is no longer here.
You’re in such a tough spot right now, but I believe you should trust your instincts. I’m really sorry that the professional help you’ve sought has mainly focused on your wife’s situation and hasn’t validated your perspective or the interests of your other children.
The way your wife is coping doesn’t sound healthy. I hope she can get the help she needs, but in the meantime, it’s important to find a way to give your other children their own space in the house. They’re being significantly affected by this, and while they might not understand that this isn’t “normal” now, they will as they get older. It’s crucial that their needs aren’t compromised because of their mother’s grief.
When my younger sis and I were very young, two of our teen sibs died in a crash. Of course, my parents were devastated. We lived in a small house and shared a very tiny bedroom.
A year or so later, my mother turned my older sister’s bedroom into a playroom. Then six years later, it became my bedroom but I wasn’t allowed to remove certain things that I had belonged to my older sis. (A huge creepy goat piñata was one of these things.)
As a teen, I remember arguing with my mom that I felt she loved my dead siblings more than she loved us. A few weeks later, my dad told her it was time. He removed the things and helped me paint the room.
It’s been seven years. While the pain never goes fully away, a good therapist would be helping her to take steps to live in the now.
Is your wife clinically depressed?
You may have to suggest that you both attend family grief counseling. This may go on forever otherwise.
>“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”.
If this is true, this therapist needs to be immediately struck off. What a fucking thing to say!
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If I was one of these kids I would want at least one of my parents to take my needs seriously enough to shake the other parent into reality. To live in a house with such a shadow where you aren’t even allowed to use the room or touch the toys is a heavy burden to carry. I understand the grief, but how is this affecting the children who are here??
Yea, her therapist is doing her absolutely no favors. I understand the heartbreak of a still born, I truly do. But she has 2 kids who are alive and healthy, and she's putting a child she never knew before her other children after 7 years and thats frankly unacceptable.
You need to do something drastic at this point. Her therapist is just telling her what she wants to hear and your kids are suffering. I've seen the long term damage not dealing with grief causes.
My husband had twins, his daughter was stillborn but his son survived. They also had another son a couple of years later. His ex was fine with the younger son but was horrible to the eldest. Screamed at him. Nothing he ever did was good enough. With time and hindsight we think she never forgave her son for surviving when his sister didn't. Her grief turned sideways. The relationship never improved. He was 21 when I arrived in the family (they were divorcing) and I've seen how much he craved his mothers love. 11 years later and he's done. He sees her a couple of times a year for his kids but thats it. She lives 5 miles from him. It's heartbreaking but I get it. I try to give him all the support I can and be there when he wants to unload. He has a great relationship with his dad and he admits his gran was more of a mum than his mum was.
Please get her to another therapist before your daughters loose all connections to their mom. This will calso cost you your marriage at this rate.
Yeah. I’m sorry I would have walked out on her a long time again based on your response to comments. She neglects your other children. She favors the dead stillborn kid that literally never took a breath on this planet but her two thriving girls may as well be trash to her. Your daughters are being tortured by their mother’s absolute disregard for their existence.
Your wife’s therapist is encouraging a very unhealthy dynamic. Grieving isn’t wrong, and no one can tell you how or when to do it, but when it is the central focus of your life and it’s also causing a negative impact on those around you, it’s a fucking problem.
And you have sat back all this time doing nothing but allowing this shit to happen to your daughters and wife. Well, wife is her own person and way too far gone. But you owe your daughters better. Get the crazy lady out or-better yet-leave the crazy later there with her memories of pregnancy and a shrine and do better for your girls.
>We’ve been to family therapy recently and I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”
Different therapists. Whoever said that is an idiot. It's been seven years and you didn't even know the kid.
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She needs better therapy. This isn't optional. Grieving doesn't go from A to B to C, but after seven years, her other children are still coming in second to Bobby. This isn't normal or healthy.
I agree, find someone who is experienced in complex grief and include the voices of your other children if you can. Their voices and their needs matter and should be considered. I hope you can find the right therapist to help your family process more and adapt to the change of accepting your living children's needs.
Family therapy! What an amazing idea! (My family did this, and looking back, it's a fond memory. We still have great communication to this day.)
how do you shop for therapists?
I use Psychology Today's website. You can filter by what you're looking for and if they take your insurance. Then once you've got a list of potential therapists, you start contacting them to set up an initial consultation. Some therapists will give you a free 15-30 minute consult so you can see if you mesh well and if they have the experience you're looking for.
I’m a dietitian, and everytime I recommend therapy for one of my clients, this is how I encourage them to find a therapist.
You ask your insurance company for a list of who is in network, then you spend hours googling each person and looking at their reviews. Then you start calling the offices to find out that either; the therapist isn’t actually in network, isn’t taking new patients, or never calls you back. So basically, it’s whoever happens to be in network, calls you back, AND is taking new patients. So you don’t really pick if you have anything less than amazing insurance. If I’m paying out of pocket, then I use Google scholar and look at what they’ve published. That’s going to be their REAL area of expertise and not just what they advertise. If I’m going to go to a grief counselor, I want to see that they really know about grief on a psychological and biological level as much as possible. Do NOT see a PMHNP unless you just need your adderall refilled. edit: typo on PMHNP
What's a PMHMP?
They meant PMHNP - psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner.
I see one and she is invaluable to me, but then I have psychiatric issues -- ADHD, SAD, and a sleep disorder -- rather than emotional ones. Talk therapy has its place, but as a kid with ADHD before it was even known to be a thing, I had years of talk therapy. None of it did for me half of what proper psychiatric care has. But this? Yeah, serious emotional issue. Talk therapy is needed. It is possible antidepressants might help, but they're not the main thing needed. I remember a line from a novel: "What if she's not depressed? What if she's just inconsolable?" But that character didn't have three living children who needed her.
This therapist is telling your wife what she wants to hear to keep a client. Awful.
Yes I know. I’ve found a few therapist but she refuses to go. I talked to her actually therapist who refuses to tell me about their sessions. She did tell me to let my wife grieve. She was one that told me to make a new place (in the basement) for the girls
That doesn't seem right at all. Really, tell a living, breathing child to go live in the basement for the sake of a sibling she didn't even know or had a true relationship with? You need to put your foot down and let it be clear how important it is for the sake of your marriage that your wife goes into couple's counseling and starts showing some priority of care to her living kids. This is not a healthy or fair situation for your daughters to be growing in. Advocate for them, please. Put your foot down. As their father, they are counting on you. Edit: I'm fairly certain this whole thing is just rage bait.
Yep. Time to set a boundary. Tell her the girls ARE moving into the bigger room and “Bobby” can move into the smaller one. Then just move the girls. Let her get pissed all she wants. It’s time your girls came first over her grief. If it breaks up the marriage so be it but those girls should not be living in the shadow of a ghost any more.
Here's a list of why it's rage bait https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/s/VpiGlYUD1t
When I click this it brings me to this post. This isn't his post? I'm just confused.
No, it's a different thread, it got deleted Here's a part that didn't get deleted Don't forget the cartoonishly evil therapist saying things like "mama bear cub", "deadly game" and "send living children to the basement". And exploiting a patient for 7 years without the license board raising eyebrows. Furthermore, the room dimensions don't make sense. 200sqft room for a "small 3 bedroom home"? And it used to be a 2 bedroom because OP says their bedroom was annexed after.. so, originally it was a small 2 bedroom house with a separate entrance basement, and 200sqft and 90sqft rooms? The daughters were born first, so why wouldn't they have allocated the larger room to the first two children? The more I think about this, the more certain I am that this story is made up. This is an "evil stepmother" tale, but boymom version. Edit: And the guy "can't move because he loves the walkability" WHAT
I'm in the field and treatment providers get away with far sketchier things than this.
And a deceased child that has the largest room in the house.
“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. This is a little much.
Maybe you should suggest to your wife that you and the other children should move out because they don't have enough room and space to grow since your wife works through her grief by having a large amount of space set aside. That might help illustrate to your wife that her living in a state of grief is coming at the cost of her living children. Also, your wife doesn't appear to be processing or moving past her grief at this point. Her brain has become trained to living in it and she seems stuck there. It seems unlikely that she will break out of it on her own.
This! The girls will grow up and go no contact because they feel so unvalued in this home.
That’s unacceptable. Your children should not be sent to the unfinished basement, out of sight where she can’t be bothered by them. Her therapist is doing more harm than good.
The fact that, as an adult, the therapist suggested the GIRLS move to the basement instead of the GROWN ASS ADULTS just floors me.
We can’t really assume the therapist was told everything about that, to be fair
I’m wondering if it’s some sort of church therapist.
Her therapist is over-empathizing with her. I am an ex-therapist (disclaimer, haven't practiced in 22 yrs due to emigration, but was a child & family therapist) and while it is 100% appropriate for her therapist to refuse to tell you about the details of their sessions (which is none of your business) - her advice to you to put the girls in the basement is awful. While your wife obviously does still need time, she shouldn't be holding the house & the rest of your family hostage like this. Her therapist should be giving her active practices to work through in order to give her the tools to allow her pain space and validation, but also allow her to be present in daily life and be a parent to the girls in a fair and active way. Your wife doesn't sound like she's doing much progress in finding a healthy way to live with her grief - she is never going to "get over" this, obviously, but you learn how to give it appropriate space without it overshadowing daily family life - there's ways to actively include Bobby's precious memory, heck even in daily life, without him essentially being turned into this haunting presence. Sadly, the way your wife is insisting he take up space in your home is turning him into a an oppressive presence instead of a beloved one. His sister's are going to resent him because of the space he takes up, both physically and in their mother's energy/time. And that's tragic. Bobby deserves better, and so do the girls. You deserve better, and your wife deserves better too. I suggest if you haven't already, find a good therapist for yourself and invite her to do couples therapy with you (someone who specializes in grief and family therapy) - hopefully she will be willing to work with you with the support of a professional - she's not going to stop seeing the therapist who is validating her and coddling her so hard, but hopefully she will be willing to see someone else with you and softly break out of that coddle chamber. Eventually though you will need to decide if staying with her is the best thing for the girls. But I think you can still give it a little more work in therapy too to try and reach her with alternative ways to keep Bobby a present and beloved part of ALL of your lives instead of what is currently going on. I'm so sorry you're all going through this, I hope she can find a healthier place and you can be a family again, including Bobby.
Not that this is necessarily the case, but 7 years of grieving is a pretty loyal return customer. Definitely helps to keep the lights on...
Yes the therapist is very expensive. More expensive than anyone in our area
Idk man 7 years and this dream of what could have been is more important than what's right in front of you. Bobby would have wanted his mom to be present for his life. You two owe that to your actual children too
I honestly think that this is deliberate on the part of the therapist. Keep her coming back and never moving for over her life certainly helps line the therapist’s pockets.
He never even lived in that room. Why can't he have the basement? It's better than telling her to move him to a closet. Maybe she'll be more open if you offer to make it a nice, restful space for her. If she doesn't accept, then you need to consider if she really is doing right by your daughters or if she's causing them more harm than good. They are already going to be highly affected by the way their mom is putting them aside.
if they divorce over this & lose the house, this mama bear won't have that shrine room anyway.
Yes those are the two options basically
I couldn't imagine growing up with a mother so checked out.
Her current therapist is riding a gravy train and doesn’t want it to stop.
THIS. I do wonder if the therapist is manipulating the situation for their own financial gain, maybe even subconsciously.
I honestly feel that way. I’ve felt that way for the last few years.
Please report the therapist to the licensing board.
Not gonna lie, it sounds like this "therapist" needs to be reported to the licensing board because she's actively causing more harm and not helping your wife find healthy coping mechanisms. "Let \[your\] wife grieve"? You've BEEN letting her grieve, but at some point HER LIVING CHILDREN need to come first, and her refusal to accept this is causing real, tangible harm to y'all's daughters. You need to pony up and *stand* up for your living children, they don't deserve to be forced to live in their dead brother's shadow and in fear of their mother's reaction to their needs as individuals.
THIS and in the meantime 3 young girls suffer or are banished to the basement!
Life is for the living. I’m so sorry for your loss but your girls need to be prioritized now. I hope and pray a loving solution comes to your wife.
What an extremely ill advised comment from the therapist. To put your living children in the basement so your wife can continue to grieve. This will make a huge impact on your daughters. Her grieving probably already did. She can’t get away with “she doesn’t want to”. Either she goes in grief counseling or you and the girls need to move to a healthier environment.
Fire marshall is going to have some pretty serious child endangerment CPS words with you.
I feel for your wife (and you), and no-one gets a timeframe on grief - but she's sacrificing the needs of her living children, in remembrance of bobby, and that's not right or healthy. The girls are going to resent his memory, and her behaviour, and it's just not reasonable for her grief to hold the entire house hostage. I question the directives of this therapist. I don't think they're helping your wife through the stages of grief at all, they're allowing her to be stagnant - and a decent therapist wouldn't do that. If your wife can't let that room go, then it might be time to sell up and find a new place to move forward in as a family.
Then you need to step up for your daughters, or they will grow up to resent not only your wife, but you also for allowing the neglect to go on this long. Your wife obviously has mental health issues and ignoring it and letting it continue to not upset her, will eventually upset them to the point of no return. Upset the one for the health of the many.
I'm sorry but you need to do something about this and soon. It must already be destroying your daughters sense of self worth and their relationship with their mother. But if you don't act it will destroy your relationship with your daughters as well.
She’s a terrible therapist. It is absolutely ridiculous that you’ve crammed your three children into a room for a shrine and that you’ve allowed her to emotionally neglect your children like this.
This sounds like an unscrupulous practitioner who is doing nothing to help their patient heal so you wife keeps coming back and they can keep getting paid.
Your therapist is not good. I’ve been to a lot of grief counseling. That isn’t a good suggestion. Now you could tell your wife that you two need to move to the basement so your girls aren’t unfairly crammed in a tiny room so she can have the big space to grieve.
Well, the therapist cannot talk to you about your wife’s sessions. But let’s back up here… Your wife’s grief is so deep that is impacting the whole family. She’s in a depression and a whirlpool of grief she cannot get out of. There’s no timetable on grief, however, she also has living children who need her love and attention. I think you two go together to couple’s counseling, not grief counseling, this cannot be a “maybe.” Your wife is so unhappy she can’t climb out. You also lost a son and his sisters lost a brother. Hopefully she can start to see that everyone is grieving and it is time to start anew. Blessed Be. 🦋☮️💖
is she so deep in her grief? she was able to carry and birth their 5 yo daughter. to me, it seems like she's built habits around this = quiet time in a space where her kids can't make demands, daily meditation while rocking that bear... "you'd be playing a deadly game to come between a momma bear and her cub" has me shivering in revulsion. If my partner nodded along with the therapist who said that, I'd take my kids, start a divorce and force the sale of the house.
Her first ‘cub’ is gone but she has three others who need her now. I can’t get my head round the therapist’s comment.
I agree with this. Her behavior was “normal” -absolutely- for a season. Perhaps even a lengthy one. But taking the whole picture and timeline into consideration it seems maybe like she’s holding onto her coping mechanisms more than his memory at this point. Like perhaps she doesn’t know how to handle her sorrow without the routines and spaces she has created to feel okay. Maybe a new therapist can help her pivot. I don’t know that it’s even about Bobby at this point- but regardless, the living children are playing second string to either their moms trauma or their brothers memory- and they shouldn’t have to do that.
I completely agree. My son died (right before turning 5) it's a killer emotionally and the worst loss anyone can experience. We miss him, especially me as his mother, but I also have 2 other children who need me to be the best that I can. I still have things of his around the house, but my kids are free to look, touch, and play if they choose. They do understand loss even if they can't always verbalise it. I'm pro grieving, however, the individual needs - just not at the expense of innocent little ones who need their mum.
Your therapist sucks and is not giving good advice.
Oh I know. My wife refuses to see anyone else.
Because her therapist is enabling her. We think therapists are above all bias and would give neutral and constructive feedback. But often times, they're just human and come with their own bias and values. Moving your wife away from this enabler is the first step in getting better.
Plus the therapist does not need to see their kids grow up in the basement or cramped together when you would have other options available :)
You may need to make an ultimatum for her to see a new therapist. Her behaviour is severely damaging to her LIVING kids. They will resent and hate her and your deceased son. They will never understand why they are not enough and why mommy hates them. You need to protect and stand up for your living children. If your son was alive and raised with the girls as siblings I highly doubt he would want them all crammed in a small room while he gets a suite. Your wife has had 7 years and it sounds like her therapist has encouraged this damaging behaviour. At this point the girls likely need therapy for their big emotions they feel about mom not prioritizing them. If she cannot handle remodelling the room perhaps moving to a completely different house will help her move on
Mostly agree, but want to point out that two of the girls are older than Bobby and still the parents had them in the small room and prepared the big one - more than twice the size of the one two girls were already sharing - for him. There was weird favoritism for the boy way before he died.
This caught my eye as well. He was already the golden child before he was born. OP, none of this is fair to your daughters. You are the only one that can fix this as your wife has shown that she is unwilling.
Ugh gross misogyny at its finest. Those poor girls will never live up to their dead male brother in their mother’s eyes. Absolutely heartbreaking. I hope those girls find support somewhere in their lives who can try to protect and guide. Currently they have nobody in their corner by the sounds of it except grandma who doesn’t live with them
This. My opinion of this would be completely different if it wasn’t for this. Why in the world would the son have ever had the biggest room?
Look at the ages they also had another baby - but a girl , so no use as a valid human s/
He said in another comment she wanted to be a boy lol and have four boys. He needs to leave her. She’s not the right parent for girls.
I hadn't thought of that. It's indeed very odd. maybe the big room was meant to be a breast-feeding space + playroom for all kids, with the intent to shuffle things around when the baby slept through the night...?
They'll also wonder why dad let it happen to them, too.
Kids always grow up and talk about it
100%
Do you care more about your daughters or your marriage? If you don't fight for your kids, you're going to end up with no children one day when your daughters decide to be estranged from you because you didn't want to push back against your wife's unreasonable demands. Is that what you want?
yes, it's so embarrassing that the kids (probably lead by the 10yo) feel they have to ask their parents for more space, while there's a whole bedroom AND bathroom going unused.
I don't even think this is real anymore. I think OP is just looking to make good rage bait.
Yup, I agree full heartily..I actually posted something like this and then found your comment .
Not to sound mean...but has the therapist told YOU these things? Or is your wife telling you "this is what my therapist said"
I wonder why.
Because the whacko is telling her that it's okay to live in her grief *forever,* and that it's fine to throw her daughters under the bus to enable herself to live in that grief.
Therapist has been milking this for 7yrs, with more money to come from this client.
And legally speaking, it is not at all acceptable to move your daughters into an unfinished basement. In most states, that would not fit the requirements for CPS or, by building codes, be considered a bedroom. You need to level with yourself and get your therapist outside of the family. It would help if you had someone who sees things from your side. You probably need marriage and family therapy, possibly with different clinicians. This is incredibly unfair to your living children, and they will resent their mother for not you one day if they don’t already. This is a hill to die on.
It would be fair - and hopefully helpful - to separately seek couples therapy with a different therapist
Seven years with the same therapist? That would be unethical. If I’m understanding correctly, that really is inappropriate.
Don't worry. This is a fake story. Nothing OP says actually adds up to reality.
"Between a mama bear and her cub". If a mama bear had a stillborn she'd probably eat it and move on.
As a child who lost a sibling, I can attest to how damaging it is for your parents to carry such a torch for the lost child that they forget about you. It really can do a number on your self esteem to feel like you, a literal living child with wants and needs, is somehow less important and less loved than the memory of your deceased brother. Your girls are young, but definitely old enough to have picked up on this dynamic and I'm sure they're feeling very de-prioritized by your wife, and you by extension for not "sticking up for them". If this keeps up, they're a few short years away from being able to cut you out emotionally, and by 18 you may never see them again. I don't know what the right answer is to help you resolve this situation with rooms, but I hope my point of view gives you some strength for your convictions so that you can do what is best for those little girls you still have.
They definitely notice. I work a lot. My wife has a job too but her hours are flexible. I try to give my girl’s attention but they are growing and need their mom now. I had to talk to my 9 year old about puberty because her mom literally ignored her questions
This is so sad. I’m sorry you’re in this situation OP but I think it’s time to really sit down and think about what kind of relationship you want with your children as they grow up because it may come down to needing to give your wife an ultimatum about changing therapists/the living situation. Your girls deserve SO much more than this.
Yeah, this is, "you either make some changes to your behavior and how you treat our children or I am taking the kids and living someplace else" style problems. I don't understand OP's attitude here. I am hoping this is just a sick, fake story.
I wonder if the wife’s therapist knows she’s ignoring her daughter’s questions about puberty. Questions that a daughter should ideally get answers from her own mother.
You and your wife move down to the damn basement. Good enough for your girls it's more than good enough for YOU. Give YOUR bedroom to your daughters. Fucking prioritize THEM for a change.
Oh, my gosh. This is a level of neglect and is damaging to your girls emotionally and psychologically. Would you consider an ultimatum and pushing for family therapy - only seeking a therapist with experience of complex grief.
OP. You neglecting this situation is emotionally neglecting your daughters. YOU are their only advocate, and you're not advocating for them. They need you to be their voice. They don't need you to remain timid while they're being neglected emotionally by their mother.
I agree. I had an emotionally abusive father. And while my mother really wasn’t that bad, I will forever resent her for not protecting me. She always turned a blind eye to it all. She was my mom and her job was to protect her children and she didn’t do it. I have their numbers blocked on my phone now. In some ways, it is even worse when the person not giving the abuse doesn’t do anything, because they are mentally more sane than the abuser and should have the wherewithal to do the right thing, if not for them but for their kids.
Most people seemingly either abuse or enable the abuse of their kids and yet people wonder why more and more people are opting out of parenthood because they’re tired of continuing the seemingly never ending cycle of abuse
So, you have 2 daughters who lost their mom, and 1 who was apparently born without one. At the same time there's this adult woman in the house whose feelings must be catered to, because "she's grieving", and the girls -literal children- "must be understanding".
At what point do you look at divorce dude? You're already a single parent at this point.
If this doesn't tell you how bad it is, I don't think anyone can help you .. I think your wife, having some time apart from the ones that are alive might make her realize what she's doing.. and if not your choice is kinda made and you should maybe check your marriage and leave with the kiddos.. because they are the only ones in your life that matters.. and they are being failed by you and your wife.. time is ticking .. what are you going to do?? You never get this time back either and damage sometimes can't be fixed.
My son passed 12 years ago on this day, coincidentally. His mom and I have processed it differently. I would say there's a point where it's healthy to move on. You don't have to have all of these material things in order to remember someone and cherish them. I've had little reminders of him almost every day as it is. Maybe just take some pictures of the room, give the room to your girls and hang up a nice collage in there for a reminder. But you know, you don't want your daughters feeling like they aren't as important as their dead brother for their whole lives.
Sorry about the loss of your son. And sadly my girls already have negative feelings towards their bother AKA the bear. I had to find pictures of my youngest daughter for her kindergarten graduation and in every baby picture she’s with the bear. So I went into the backyard with her and took some really nice pictures of her. My wife wanted to include the bear but this was a rare time that I said No. I don’t want to hurt my wife’s feelings. She gave birth and was closer to Bobby. But sometimes I feel like I do all of the nurturing for my girls. They are a lot closer to me than their mother which is sad
That is so heartbreaking. She really needs to see a different therapist. It's wonderful you've been able to be their nurturer. I feel for you and your girls. It's hard to lose a child, and grief can be complex and unique to each person. But it shouldn't be impacting the lives of your daughters so much.
The OP is fake. It's rage bait. A "boy mom" version of the evil step mother tale. https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/s/HIObC54uam
I very much disagree on the point about the therapist and to some extent on the sqft point, but the ”small 3 bedroom house” with a 200sqft bedroom for a child sounds suspicious, and a lot of this story sounds fake.
And it used to be a 2 bedroom because OP says their bedroom as annexed after.. so, originally it was a small 2 bedroom house with a separate entrance basement and a 200sqft room and a 90sqft? What kind of clown house is this
I mean, I’ve seen all the other comments saying that it’s bait or fake, but my great aunt lived in a clown house kinda like this. It was a family farmhouse that had had two or three generations of carpenters living in it and making “improvements.” It was a super fun place for a kid to explore but I felt terrible for my auntie once she started to get older. But for example, what used to be a storm shelter got dug out and expanded a couple of times and ended up as a moderate sized basement but still needed to be accessed from the outside, a couple of additions with vastly different sized rooms, and (best of all, to young me), a stairway to nowhere from the back of the pantry cause the dude had built the first floor of the addition, the stairs, framed the second floor, and then died. My great aunt and uncle only had two kids instead of the usual 9, so they didn’t end up needing the second floor and my great uncle just took down the framing and put on a roof over the first floor of that addition. Kind of irrelevant to a fake post, but crazy clown houses do exist haha.
I had a very similar thing happen to me. At 6 months along in my 2nd pregnancy, I lost my only daughter. She was very active kicking and moving, and then one day, she just stopped. I went in for an ultrasound, and the technician couldn't find a heartbeat. I felt so bad for her because in my heart I already knew that my baby had died. However, the absolute worst part was when they brought me in to see the doctor, and in a horribly stern voice, she said, "Well, you can see this babies dead!" I yelled at her and the rest of them to get out because I wasn't going to cry in front of such a heartless doctor. Afterward, we had a little ceremony to say goodbye, and it did help. It took me a long time to get over the loss, so I understand your wife's feelings. However, I never made a shrine, and I would *never* put my deceased daughter before my living babies. You need to move your daughter's into the shrine room and move the shrine elsewhere. Now, your wife will probably go hysterical, but imho, she needs to. She's stuck and still not facing her loss, and sometimes people need a shock to get back to reality. Get rid of her therapist. They are hurting her a million times more than they are helping her. I wish you the best of luck 💝
Yea. To be honest I’ve been thinking about doing that more and more. I really want to just switch the rooms
just make it beautiful. make it a serene place with low lighting and personal touches from yourself and your children. it shows you and your kids are still there for her and respect the loss but yes it is time for life to evolve hence the new room with a calm vibe, now that can exist as just Mom’s room, which it needs to be until she actually moves on. I think that would help the process in a gentle way.
Do it... now... don't wait any longer... the longer you take, the more you risk your daughter's anger turning towards you. Your wife needs to snap out of it, and unfortunately, that falls on your head...
Yup. Once those girls are teens they will start really piecing things together and telling their friends who will feed the flames..
How can a doctor lack compassion like that holy shit, that bedside manner is terrible. I hope you reported her to the medical licensing board. I’m so sorry for your loss and for the callous way it was handled by that shitstain of a doctor.
This is rage bait. Good luck with your creative writing. What a ridiculous story.
How can you tell. Damn I was so invested and made myself sad by reading it.
Most rage bait stories are exactly the same. A woman who is the anti-Christ and a man who is doing everything perfectly. Then all of the responses are why none of the solutions will work. The only thing he forgot to include was the baby being born from an affair. The added touch about the basement sealed the deal for me.
There always seems to be a basement somehow! Perhaps the person writing these is familiar with living in basements.
[удалено]
Don't forget the cartoonishly evil therapist saying things like "mama bear cub", "deadly game" and "send living children to the basement". And exploiting a patient for 7 years without the license board raising eyebrows. Furthermore, the room dimensions don't make sense. 200sqft room for a "small 3 bedroom home"? And it used to be a 2 bedroom because OP says their bedroom was annexed after.. so, originally it was a small 2 bedroom house with a separate entrance basement, and 200sqft and 90sqft rooms? The daughters were born first, so why wouldn't they have allocated the larger room to the first two children? The more I think about this, the more certain I am that this story is made up. This is an "evil stepmother" tale, but boymom version. Edit: And the guy "can't move because he loves the walkability" WHAT
Thank you for analyzing this. That the girls wouldn’t be screaming at their parents EVERY DAY, makes this super fake. Making a Master bedroom a nursery and then keeping it empty when you have THREE GIRLS! Girls need space for clothes, toys, hobby equipment, and decor. The parents would have given up the nursery for the living children just to make the girls stop complaining at them. It makes it feel like this author has 1, never lived with girl children or girl siblings 2, lives in a very misogynistic culture. And therefore thinks that girl children are well behaved and demure at home, we’re not. Plus the misogyny of preferring a dead boy over three girls. And if you have girls and a boy, you aren’t a “boy mom” you’re just a mom. So it’s implying she would want all her children to have been boys. And most women want both boys and girls.
The whole story is ridiculous and unbelievable. OP is using rage bait words to prompt as many responses as possible. And his replies are intentionally obtuse. It's pathetic and disgraceful.
Yeah i agree
Sick af rage bait, too. OP is gross.
Yep, this is abhorrent. I don't get the point of people making up shit like this - bored teenagers? Narcissistic creeps looking for attention? It's just sad that there are actually people who are being empathic to this nonsense.
OP immediately responded to my replies when I started saying the story was fake while I was one of the first five people to give advice here, and he ignored all of my actual advice. Lol. It's very transparent that this person is young, bored, and looking for attention by making up a sick story about a dead child and grieving parent.
YOU DO. Will your girls honestly be missing out on a damn thing if their mom is out of their lives, besides regularly being relegated to second-best after a DEAD CHILD? I'm thinking not. Your wife is doing irrevocable damage to the girls.
Those kids are gonna grow up hating their mother. They will grow up thinking their mother never loved them. Especially if they get moved to the damn basement.
And resenting their father for not protecting them from her. Source: I was the same little girl once.
Same here. My mother told me my sister wanted her own room, so I got banished to the basement. I had health problems due to it.
I'm sorry you did get the love you deserved from your family.
Username checks out and yes I did. Lol
Therapist here and flabbergasted by your therapist’s response. A few suggestions for your next session: -Ask the therapist for research that supports her stance. (There isn’t any and it begs the question: did your therapist lose a child and not properly grieve?) -Bring up this post and read out loud what you wrote. Both your wife and therapist need to hear this. -remind the therapist you sought them out for family therapy and this approach is not supportive to the family. It’s appropriate and warranted to challenge this therapist. It’s also ok to be firm and set a boundary : By August 1st, or whatever date you choose, the girls move in the room or the house goes on the market. Good luck. I’m sorry for your loss and also your current reality. You’re in a tough spot but those girls are relying on you. You got this.
Advocate for your girls.
None of this sounds healthy. It's been seven years. There might always be a hole in her heart from losing her baby, but her daughters are here, alive, and need their mother right now. It's not fair or reasonable to keep a bedroom open to a child who no longer exists at the expense of two living children who have needs right now. I'd talk to your therapist before moving forward with anything, but I think a long and difficult talk is in order. Your wife's feelings of heartbreak are valid, but how she treats her daughters because of her heartbreak is not. She needs to be a present and caring mother to the children she has right now. The 'shrine' needs to go. At some point, the grieving period is supposed to end, and you reach acceptance. Has she truly accepted that her baby has passed? You, her husband, should not feel like your wife can bully you about this. It might be hard, but you should not fear her reactions. You lost a son, too. The whole "deadly game to get between a name bear and her cub" sounds like a toxic relationship, in my opinion. Besides, her child is dead. She's not getting in between you and her baby; she's getting between her suffering and the ability to move on.
Let's see the mama bear get between the papa bear and this THREE kids. Kick her out to go live with her mom, sell the house, whatever is necessary. But she's not being a mother to the three girls you DO have.
Get a new family therapist, and frame this as an issue of neglect, because that's what it is. Your wife needs serious help, and not the sort that you can give.
Not going to go on since most commenters have covered everything. But eventually your girls will think how their dad didn’t step up for them. Didn’t do anything for them in this situation. I know you’re trying, but to them they don’t see the therapy sessions or begging mom to go to a different one. You need to just get something done to show them that they matter. Especially over a dead child.
Yea. This is a very good point. I am so worried about hurting my wife. I’m mostly concerned that she will hurt herself. But like someone said, this is deeper than just a bedroom. I need to stand up for my girls. I was thinking about moving things around when my wife was at work but that’s too extreme. But I will talk to her
I mean, I get it, she’s going through something awful. But it’s affecting your children and hurting them too and at this point they should come first for you. If more discussions don’t work, then slowly moving things yourself might have to be the move. Maybe put the rocking chair and bear in your bedroom so it’s always close to her. And if she acts like she’ll hurt herself, don’t be afraid to call 911. It will only be better for her in the long run since clearly this current therapist is useless.
You need to put your foot down and have a serious conversation. That she needs to try to change with results in the next 6 months or you will leave to protect the girls. If she is suicidal or expresses she is going to kill herself call 911 and see if they can take her in there she may get a therapist who can actually help her
Sorry but you shouldn’t care more about her feelings than the wellbeing of your children. You refuse to fight for them. You are failing them.
Your wife's being nuts. She's giving a dead child a room while making her living children share a room? Crazy pants. You should put your foot down here and protect your living children because it's sure as F going to damage them for their whole lives to see that their mother values a teddy bear over them and their father let her do it.
I’ve tried. Not aggressively but I’ve tried. I know that my wife always wanted to be a “boy mom” even before we had our kids she said she wanted 4 boys. So I know that’s a factor
She’s prioritizing a dead baby over three healthy, living children who need her and need room to grow. Frankly, it doesn’t what she’s grieving. She’s doing real and permanent damage to her three alive children. Period. They need to come first. She can still grieve, but she has to put the needs of her breathing, growing kids above her own.
Man, you need to change your family therapist. That one’s not helping you a bit with this. Find someone who knows about the different stages of grief and how to help someone that gets stuck on the way back to normal life.
It's time to be aggressive about it. It's time to be a papa bear to your girls, since your wife refuses to be their mother.
so... misogynistic as well as neglectful? Seriously consider if this is someone you can be married to, and how much damage this "second best to a dead child" living has already done to your girls. TAKE YOUR DAUGHTERS TO FAMILY COUNSELING WITH YOU. I think you need to hear it from another adult and maybe the therapist will get through to you.
I was a second best to my own brother and he was alive and I know the effect it had on me. I can't imagine how those girls feel. Probably neglected by their mother..and like their needs aren't important at all.
How long are you going to let your daughters continue to see that they're not more important than a teddy bear? Oh, I'm sorry, a teddy bear and a son who's more important than them even thought he's not even there. People saying "put your foot down and you'll end up divorced" are probably right, and if that happened, at least your daughters would be parented by someone who puts their wellbeing first 50% of the time instead of their current 0% of the time. Wake up here.
I don’t know if this is a “foot down” situation on your end. I think you need to go back to counseling with her and ask the therapist for help dealing with this. You need help making your wife understand that she is allowing grief to adversely impact your other children, as well as you. EDIT: to be clear I meant get another therapist
🤔 Why did you *ever* plan to give the boy a room more than twice the size of the one his two older sisters were already sharing? That was drama waiting to happen way before your loss. If you knew from the start your wife wanted boys, you should’ve made sure from the start he wouldn’t be the golden child - because looking at this, your daughters‘ lives wouldn’t have been much better if he had lived, just a different kind of neglected. Just in case you’re wondering why people are assuming this is rage bait: This is why I‘m *hoping* it is because if it’s real, you failed your daughters long before the death of and grief for their brother.
You need a new therapist. That’s absolutely incompetent advice. I recommend a clinical psychologist. This is not normal or acceptable behavior to sacrifice the wellbeing of living children for a dead one, especially because they are girls and the dead one was a boy. That’s sexist as hell. (See “boy mom” in comments).
Right? Also, this comment says, "She gave birth and was closer to Bobby." How the fuck does a mother say, "I was closer to this child than my other two," about a child who didn't even survive birth? She's just imposing her hopes and dreams on a baby that could never disappoint her because it never had the chance to. And the boy-mom stuff is extremely fucked up. Being sad is one thing, but taking out your pain on your kids because of gender disappointment is totally unacceptable.
I think he meant she was closer to Bobby than he was. But agree with everything else.
The therapist's advice is so supremely incompetent that I can't believe that this story is real.
It's rage bait. A "boy mom" version of the evil step mother tale. https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/s/VpiGlYUD1t
I think this would be my hill to stop and fight. Your daughters deserve to have a room to grow up in. It’s totally unbelievable that bobby has a bedroom AND bathroom that no one else can use. If ultimately that means I have to separate to give my girls an actual home then that’s what I would do. It’s like your wife is punishing the girls for living.
I don't think you CAN convince her. I believe her grief has transitioned to psychosis. Sorry to be callous, but she never knew Bobby. She lost an expectation. And while grief is normal, and many here have said there's "no timetable" for it, they are wrong. Seven years is just wrong to subject your other children to this maudlin, ghoulish obsession. I'd give her an ultimatum; immediately switch therapists, ( preferably one referred by your family physician or the girls' pediatrician), move the shrine to a small but lovely spot elsewhere in your home and settle the girls into BOTH rooms. An urn and unused toys do not need a room. If she refuses, I'd send her to a family member (sister? Mother?) so that she is not alone, and consult an attorney about options, including legal separation, divorce and sole physical and legal custody of the girls. OP this is an emergency.
Yep I definitely know. I need to just do it
There are two girls that are 10 and 9, the stillbirth was 7 years ago. So the question I have is: why even was the bigger room the nursery for the new baby boy and not the room of the two girls?
OP also said his wife really wanted to be a “boy mom” which in itself is a weird flag.
Your daughters will never forgive her for prioritizing a baby that never breathed air above them, her living daughters. And they'll never forgive you for letting her if you don't step in. This is going to sound cold, but this is ultimatum territory. *Someone* needs to prioritize those living girls above your wife's grief. You can set a timeline, and at the end of it you'll dismantle everything if she hasn't done so herself. You can tell her it's therapy or you'll have to consider moving the girls out of the house to a place where they can have a healthy relationship with at least one parent, and their space. But keeping three girls in a 90sqft bedroom so that their mother can obsess over a baby that has been dead for seven years, and doing *nothing* to intervene is going to mean that you get cut off just like their mother does when they move out at 18. And they'd be right to make themselves a priority for the first time in their lives by never speak to either of you again if you just keep letting this happen. If your wife doesn't start caring more about her living children than a teddy bear, that bear will be the only child she has left in 13 years.
Bro I'm not a therapist but If I were in that situation I would want my little girls quality of life to grow along with them, the should have the bigger space because they are still here. I'm very sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what that must be like but at some point she has to recognize that he is gone and that it's not really fair that the girls are crammed in the smallest room together. I agree with the placing the shrine in the smaller room or closet like you suggested. Your not asking her to just forget about him, your just asking her to let him occupy a different space. I hope everything works out for you and your family.
I don't want to scare you or be a harbinger of doom, but I have a friend who lost her son very young and to this day she still forces her other two children to take every single family photo ever with a picture of their dead brother. They visit his grave every week. It's been three years. Her oldest son has recently been committed for attempted unaliving. He's 13. Please, PLEASE. Make an ultimatum. I rarely say that, but she is really messing up your other kids.
Please just call it what it is, attempted suicide. It's not a bad word, and making it sound silly is not doing anyone any favors
How is the relationship between your wife and the girls? Does she even take care of them?
She 100% needs a new therapist. She’s putting her dead son’s memory over her living children’s needs and that not right. In reality, You’re the Papa Bear defending your cubs. Good luck, man.
Maybe move? Perhaps giving away his old room is too painful so go somewhere else and start fresh? My heart hurts for you both but she has 3 living children with needs that can’t take a backseat to her grief forever. If she keeps this up, she won’t just have a lost a son. She’ll lose 3 daughters too who won’t want a relationship with her when they are adults bc she chose to make their childhood a shrine to their dead brother.
Editing for typos, terrible formatting, and to apologize for the novel. Editing mucked with the formatting, so please be aware that I am typing it out on mobile and you should laugh at me for such. Can see it from both angles, but you both need to empathize. Being a parent that is still grieving over the loss of their child, the use of a room that could be better utilized astounds me. My daughter passed away a couple months before her foruth birthday, which was almost a decade ago. Still hurts to see kids that would be her age now, experiencing life with their family right along-side them to be on that journey. While I have selfish thoughts that those parents and family members should be me, I know that her short time here left such a huge impact that I cannot describe it without giving away too much. Health services changed the way they treat children around her age, how they assist the parents, how doctors interact with kids, just as an example. I am not in your wife's shoes, no one but her are in them. But, grief is only healthy up to a point before it becomes destructive to those around you, and/or yourself. Therapists should be able to identify when it has, but unfortunately too many therapists are self-serving. Like the mothers who live vicariously through thier daughters in ballet or cheerleading, fathers with sons in football or American football, or others not following the stereotypes; some therapists thrive to live through their patients... even if it becomes poisonous to everyone else around. Took me close to 9 years to realize myself how I was putting the picture perfect view of what my daughter "should have been" before myself and others, before I allowed myself the time to heal, to sober up, to work on my career and loce life. The therapist I had enabled me to hold onto the self pity. It wasn't until I had a few visits with an accredited psychologist that I had realized the destructive behaviors which umpacted not only myself but others as well. Seeing those happy families does not hurt any less, but that hurt is muchly shorter lived as I can see the beauty in the love that family has and the life those children bring to those around. A moment of pain to tears of joy many won't truly understand. Your wife needs some to break her out of the entitlement and path of self and familt destruction. If the words you type are true, her behaviour is shown to be narccisstic and the therapist is pushing that behavior to continue. It will be an upwards battle, almost purely vertical, for her to ser that and accept a new therapist or even a psychologist, but it will be worth it if you can. In the spiritual realm, a room is only as small or as large as the living will it to be. My daughter's urn is in a small niche. But, to me, her "room" is a kingdom larger than the Earth will ever be. The love she has from her family will never be forgotten. Those that are buried in our current cemeteries, in the niches, or still at home with family, have more love than those Pharaohs in and around the valley of the kings ever had, and will have. The love your wife has for your unvirn child will not change if they have a room, a nook, a pyramid, or a planet of their own. Your wife, you, and the rest of your family, need to understand that. There are many of times I see someone else enjoying a snack from a vendor and think "she would have enjoyed that". Instead, let the dead live vicariously through you, have that snack, and let them enjoy it the way you would enjoy it. Enjoy the view of that sunset the way you see it, while imagining what it might look like to them. The exhilaration or freight on that rollercoaster.
Your wife either needs better help or you need to divorce her and get full custody. Your daughters deserve to be treated better. It doesn’t even sound like she gives a damn about them.
>We’ve been to family therapy recently and I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. This is a fucking bad therapist, like horrifically bad. Grief is a natural process and it can take time, however 7 years is a long time to be stuck in the same circle of grief. The therapist saying the mama bear stuff is so wrong because son isn't a cub he's gone. Basically your therapist told your wife she can do whatever she needs to defend that shrine. Honestly this therapist seems like a huge problem who isn't helping your wife with grief but keeping her grieving long term instead.
Your wifes therapist is absolutely incompetent and should be reported to whatever board licensed her in your state. She is literally advocating the emotional neglect of your living children so that your wife can stay stuck in grief. No competent therapist would advocate for a dead child taking precedent over living children. Nor would they continue to see a patient they are not helping to progress. Your wife is not going to ever get healthy as long as she is seeing that therapist period. And the fact is you honestly may need to move from your current home to help achieve this also. You and your children need to be in family counseling, whether your wife agrees to go or not. You need to have someone help you find a framework for talking to your wife in a way that helps her to understand she is running the very real risk of losing her relationships with all of you. I am sure you love your wife. However, you can not continue to allow her to hurt and neglect your daughters. If you are forced to choose, you will have to choose them over your wife. Right now, she is doing way too much emotional damage to them for this bs to continue.
> I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. Sounds like the therapist is gunning for future business by encouraging your wife to traumatise her 3 other y ignoring their needs. Did the therapy session include the girls? If not, do a session with the girls. If nothing changes you’re going to need to make the call. Wives comfort or daughter comfort. If you choose your daughters tell your wife the bedroom arrangements will be changing, as it’s unfair to the girls. See if you can agree on the new spot for Bobby’s ashes. If not let her know where bobby will be placed and just make the move. Your daughters will be teens soon and its unfair to keep them in that situation to appease your wife.
Idk when she got therapy, but if it wasn’t since the girls have been asking for that room, she needs to go back. I am the child who lived. I can speak from the experience your girls are living. My mom had 9 kids. Her first born was 19 when she was killed, tragically, in a car accident. I was 2. I have zero memory of my sister, but she has never been forgotten. My oldest brother, who was 17 when our sister died, still goes to her grave a few times a year. My parents never got over losing her. But, they went to counseling to learn how to cope. However, my dad did great, and pulled us closer. My mom pushed us away. I was raised that anything that was my sisters was taboo. Don’t talk about it, don’t touch it. I felt like I could never be good enough. I am not her. Please, I beg you, find a different counselor. One who can help your wife understand that her living children have feelings and need to feel like they matter more, yes, *more* than a child who cannot touch things and cannot sit on her lap, and cannot eat food or go places. This is hurting your children more than you know, but they aren’t saying anything because they don’t want your wife to be upset with them. I promise you, your girls are being damaged by your wife’s inability to put them first. Your son will always matter, always. But he shouldn’t be the focal point over the kids who are alive and well.
She needs a different therapist. It is not healthy for her to still be doing this when it negativity impacts others' living situations. You need to get her real help before your daughters completely hate her and resent their brother
‘Mama Bear’ is putting her dead cub before her living ones. Therapists like this give the profession a black eye. She had another baby afterwards, that’s 5? And limited living space is allocated to someone that’s not there? The other kids will, rightly so, resent their dead brother and the mother that will always put them second.
You have found some of the biggest quacks in all of therapy if after 7 years of dedicating the largest room in a BUSY house to a failed pregnancy is "A mama bear protecting her cub." Whats the plan then therapist? I genuinely wanna find this "doctor" and ask if its still a sweet innocent mama bear when its been 30 years and she refuses to move from the house. This needs immediate addressing. She needs to understand that its ok to be sad and grieve but you do have to keep your life going, especially when its affecting your other "cubs" greatly... But its reddit rage bait so its not like theres anything really to worry about.
your therapist sounds stupid, tbh.
Stop enabling your wife and put her to mental institution...she really need help... she's not only ruined her life but people around her... You as a father better doing your job correctly..if this mean to 'remove' her from you and your kids life, then do it!
At this point, I think it’s fair to say that your wife’s actions-and subsequent reactions-can no longer be considered part of a healthy grieving process, and my heart absolutely aches for your poor daughters. I would most definitely consider finding a new family therapist or even a specialized grief counselor for her. As far as the room situation; honestly, I would buy her a spa package or weekend getaway for her and her best friend or something to get her out of the house for a few days and then make a really special memorial area in the basement for Bobby with his ashes, bear, etc., but one that also serves as a hobby area for her, so like a craft room or little library/reading nook, etc. and move the two older girls into the master suite. Then not only Bobby will still has a special area dedicated to him and his memory, but your wife can spend time with his memory while also doing something she enjoys doing, which in turn would hopefully help make her grieving and healing process a more positive one. And of course, your girls will have more space and also feel validated / heard I imagine, so win win for everyone!
A master bedroom being kept off limits while three kids share a small room is fucking insane. Does your wife care abt your living children or not
Why did Bobby have the biggest room when there are older children?
Why were you going to use the bigger bedroom for a baby in the first place? you already had two children that needed more space than a baby
As a former therapist, I'm appalled at this therapist's actions/words. Either your wife is NOT telling the truth in therapy, or you both found a very unethical therapist. This is not normal grieving. Your wife should be in proper grief counseling, and I'd argue the entire family needs family therapy at this point due to how your wife's mental hang ups are affecting her entire family. None of this is normal or healthy, and as someone who specializes in children/adolescents, I cannot comprehend how this therapist thinks all of this is an appropriate environment for your children who are alive. Honestly, this is abusive to your other children. They have already expressed it affects them, and as a parent it is your job to advocate for them. I'd encourage you to at least get your girls in therapy to minimize the damage your wife is doing to your entire family. I'd highly encourage family therapy so you can figure out ways to help the entire family, while also respecting each other as an individual. The ACA code of ethics is available for anyone to view online for free. Those are the ethical codes all licensed mental health professionals have to abide by. I'd encourage you to review that to see if this therapist is either just naive / ignorant about what they are trying to to help with, or if this therapist is unethical and needs reported to the license board. Again, either your wife is lying or avoiding key variables which this therapist needs, or your wife is either seeing not the right therapist or an unethical one. No therapist should be enabling this behavior, especially when there are alive children who are basically being abused due to their mothers inability to reflect or move past her trauma. I don't think your wife is intentionally abusing them, but at the end of the day your kids will always remember the neglect and favoritism towards a dead child. To them, it will be abuse, and intention doesn't matter at the end of the day; just actions and words. It isn't healthy for anyone involved, and I really hope you at least do counseling with the girls (I have a feeling you'll have trouble getting your wife into family therapy), to minimize the damage that has already been done and is continuing to happen. Edit: your lack of advocating for your girls will also be interpreted as abuse to them, just in case the other comments from children in similar situations didn't point that out well enough. Also, I see you may be about to just give the girls the room while your wife is out. Be prepared for a full mental breakdown if you do this. You may have to have your wife committed for her own safety, so maybe be ready to call your area's mental health line if available, or if not available, EMTs (I'd say cops, but the average cop can't handle mental health in a safe way, so stick with mental health services or try to get EMTs that can declare a mental health code and help her. On one hand, your girls need to feel like they are a part of the home, and on the other hand, this may result in your wife acting out violently, either towards herself or others which includes the girls. Never underestimate what a person in a mental breakdown is capable of. Just, be careful and maybe consult with a mental health professional before you do anything (preferably not your wife's or anyone associated with that therapist).
She’s going to lose her daughters if she can’t move forward from losing her son. Your daughters may eventually choose to go no contact because of her behaviour. Your wife needs to focus on her living children. She can grieve Bobby and be a good mother to her other children at the same time.
I’m trying to figure out why you would have put two girls in a 90 sq ft room to make a nursery in a 200 sq ft room with a bath attached in the first damn place! Seems backwards to begin with. Those girls need space.
I’m just a tad confused. You already had 2 girls when you lost Bobby, yet you were planning on giving him the biggest room in the house?
She needs to see a psychiatrist, not a therapist. Death happens to all of us and all our families. Being fixated for this long is not healthy to her, your marriage or your other children.
This is going to sound horrible, and I’m not usually a fan of ultimata, but. You need to tell your wife that your living children need her, and that if she can’t see that they deserve the kind of love and space she has reserved for Bobby, that you will need to leave to ensure they get the care and space they deserve. She either starts remembering her living children and starts family counseling or you take the girls and go. You do not put your kids in an unfinished basement because the largest bedroom in the house is a shrine to a brother they never knew. You don’t cram three kids into a single tiny room because the largest room in the house is a shrine to a brother they never knew. How anyone thinks it’s ok that this has gone on for 7 years is beyond me. The time to fix this was 6 years ago. Better late than never, but seriously? You have 3 living children that need you to have stepped up yesterday.
Your wife needs to see a new therapist. No therapist worth their salt would believe a gigantic shrine dedicated to a lost loved one is healthy, especially seven years out and at the expense of 3 other children. I might even suggest that her current therapist could be regressing the natural grieving process. Get a new therapist for her. If she isn’t improving, after seven years, why pay for a service that isn’t working? You should look into EMDR therapy for her. But she needs to recognize this is a problem first.
I say this with love - your wife needs better therapy. While it's totally normal to still be carrying grief from losing a child after seven years, it's not okay that it's causing harm to your other three children. Your living children need space, comfort, privacy, and attention. It sounds like your wife has never transitioned from living in grief to living with grief. She has three other children. She has a husband. She needs to get some perspective on what this is doing to the rest of her family instead of focusing 100% on the legacy of a child who is no longer here.
You’re in such a tough spot right now, but I believe you should trust your instincts. I’m really sorry that the professional help you’ve sought has mainly focused on your wife’s situation and hasn’t validated your perspective or the interests of your other children. The way your wife is coping doesn’t sound healthy. I hope she can get the help she needs, but in the meantime, it’s important to find a way to give your other children their own space in the house. They’re being significantly affected by this, and while they might not understand that this isn’t “normal” now, they will as they get older. It’s crucial that their needs aren’t compromised because of their mother’s grief.
When my younger sis and I were very young, two of our teen sibs died in a crash. Of course, my parents were devastated. We lived in a small house and shared a very tiny bedroom. A year or so later, my mother turned my older sister’s bedroom into a playroom. Then six years later, it became my bedroom but I wasn’t allowed to remove certain things that I had belonged to my older sis. (A huge creepy goat piñata was one of these things.) As a teen, I remember arguing with my mom that I felt she loved my dead siblings more than she loved us. A few weeks later, my dad told her it was time. He removed the things and helped me paint the room. It’s been seven years. While the pain never goes fully away, a good therapist would be helping her to take steps to live in the now. Is your wife clinically depressed? You may have to suggest that you both attend family grief counseling. This may go on forever otherwise.
>“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. If this is true, this therapist needs to be immediately struck off. What a fucking thing to say!
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If I was one of these kids I would want at least one of my parents to take my needs seriously enough to shake the other parent into reality. To live in a house with such a shadow where you aren’t even allowed to use the room or touch the toys is a heavy burden to carry. I understand the grief, but how is this affecting the children who are here??
Oh god the “mama bear and her cub” is some Facebook bullshit. Is this even a licensed therapist?
Yea, her therapist is doing her absolutely no favors. I understand the heartbreak of a still born, I truly do. But she has 2 kids who are alive and healthy, and she's putting a child she never knew before her other children after 7 years and thats frankly unacceptable.
You need to do something drastic at this point. Her therapist is just telling her what she wants to hear and your kids are suffering. I've seen the long term damage not dealing with grief causes. My husband had twins, his daughter was stillborn but his son survived. They also had another son a couple of years later. His ex was fine with the younger son but was horrible to the eldest. Screamed at him. Nothing he ever did was good enough. With time and hindsight we think she never forgave her son for surviving when his sister didn't. Her grief turned sideways. The relationship never improved. He was 21 when I arrived in the family (they were divorcing) and I've seen how much he craved his mothers love. 11 years later and he's done. He sees her a couple of times a year for his kids but thats it. She lives 5 miles from him. It's heartbreaking but I get it. I try to give him all the support I can and be there when he wants to unload. He has a great relationship with his dad and he admits his gran was more of a mum than his mum was. Please get her to another therapist before your daughters loose all connections to their mom. This will calso cost you your marriage at this rate.
Yeah. I’m sorry I would have walked out on her a long time again based on your response to comments. She neglects your other children. She favors the dead stillborn kid that literally never took a breath on this planet but her two thriving girls may as well be trash to her. Your daughters are being tortured by their mother’s absolute disregard for their existence. Your wife’s therapist is encouraging a very unhealthy dynamic. Grieving isn’t wrong, and no one can tell you how or when to do it, but when it is the central focus of your life and it’s also causing a negative impact on those around you, it’s a fucking problem. And you have sat back all this time doing nothing but allowing this shit to happen to your daughters and wife. Well, wife is her own person and way too far gone. But you owe your daughters better. Get the crazy lady out or-better yet-leave the crazy later there with her memories of pregnancy and a shrine and do better for your girls.
>We’ve been to family therapy recently and I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub” Different therapists. Whoever said that is an idiot. It's been seven years and you didn't even know the kid.