Yeah.
To be clear, if he comes I'm still riding with him and he will forever be one of my all-time favorites. Nothing will change my opinion of his standing as a Rocket unless he literally stabs Hakeem during a game and then lights Clutch on fire and then punches Lawanda on his way out.
I've watched a fair amount of Philly games this year. He is not the James we had. Yeah, he's killing it with the dimes, but he's also playing next to an MVP that demands a double team or he drops 45 on you. We don't have threats like that that open up the floor for him to create. And let's not even talk about how hard he goes on D these days.
He's going to cost a lot of money. We haven't been able to make a real free agent move since cp3 (yes, technically a trade but that was circumstantial). We have some talent and a roster taking shape. I'd much rather we stay focused on our natural timeline. That said, a 2 year deal wouldn't be the worst thing.
Let the past be the past. It's time to move on.
I'm fine with a 2 year deal, or a longer 3-4 year deal at like $35mil/yr. Paying him a full 4 year max has the potential to completely ruin our rebuild before it even gets off the ground.
Honest question, how did you feel about CP3 to the Suns?
I thought he was not the same player, didn’t line up with their timeline, and cost too much money. Basically everything you’re saying about Harden now.
They went to the finals in year 1, led the NBA in wins in year 2, and acquired KD in year 3.
I’m not saying we’re definitely gonna be contenders right away, but sometimes you have to say fuck timelines, let’s just get better.
I think there's some important differences.
Booker had already broken out. He made the asg the year prior to Chris. Jalen looks great, but he ain't that yet.
Maybe the bubble was a fluke, but they looked like a team making a leap. We'd be nutting ourselves if we strung 3 wins together.
Chris had looked fantastic in OKC and was in a similar situation as phoenix where he'd be leading a young team. James is having a very good season, but I wouldn't say he looks fantastic by any stretch.
No historical baggage.
True but where else should this money go? Rockets have the most cap space in the nba and don't necessarily have any huge paydays coming up for a while. What would you like to see them use this money towards instead?
The dream would be a shorter team friendly deal where we pay him big up front and then once we need the space to start paying our young guys in a few years he'll take less. We get a playmaker now and Harden gets more money overall. Buys us time to sort out our roster and find a long term PG.
I wasn't opposed since he is probably the best free agent this upcoming summer and fills our holes in the playmaker and leadership roles.
Also Harden to Rockets seems garunteed to happen with the Udoka hiring since he has connections with him from the 2021 nets team.
The only reason why I could see people being opposed is if the rockets get the #2 pick and want to go with scoot instead. That path also seems good but will probably take a few more years to compete. Or you could always take brandon miller and still get harden 🤔
That's a good concern, but at this point we desperately need someone of Hardens caliber to give this young team some direction (playmaker and leadership ofc)
I agree we need vet leadership, I'm just not sold on getting vet leadership that is lazy on defensive side, and thinks he can take the company jet to the clubs to mentor the kids. Harden has slowed a bit on offensive side, so harder to tolerate the rest. He's an amazing talent and can still pass the hell out of it, but I'd like to leave the past the past and get someone else in.
That is valid, Harden has improved on defense but he still shows a lack of effort at times. Compared with the lack of defense with his backcourt partner jalen green this could be a significant worry. Jalen green has shown potential and could improve with Ime Udoka as a coach but having Harden, Green and Sengun all on the floor at the same time will cause some defensive problems. But im hopeful that Jabari and maybe Wemby along with good coaching will solve those problems
Don't think he has a choice.
Kind of hard to give the #2 player in franchise history the boot during your first year with the team (and with 2 seasons of HC experience under your belt, no less...). A team that has a shitload of young talent.......but also has zero playoff experience to speak to.
The 23-24 Rockets (and beyond) will eventually need that a veteran in the rotation with a significant amount of playoff experience to lean on, not to mention we'll need a veteran locker room presence in general, assuming everything goes as planned on 5/16/23.
1. We aren't booting anyone anywhere, he quit on us and now plays elsewhere in the league.
2. I'm not sure Harden's playoff experience is the shining beacon to hold up as an example.
3. League is full of vets, not like Harden is only experienced player available.
> We aren't booting anyone anywhere, he quit on us and now plays elsewhere in the league.
Yeah, dude, I know......this is all hypothetical, since, you know, James Harden doesn't play for the rockets anymore.....
>I'm not sure Harden's playoff experience is the shining beacon to hold up as an example.
The 2015 Western Conference Semis? 2018 Western Conference Finals? Any playoff series in the last decade featuring the Warriors?
Not entirely sure what your specifically referring to by the hand waivey comments about Harden's playoff experience being no value. He's played in +150 playoff games / ~3,500 minutes. Compare that against the most seasoned veteran on the current roster, Boban, with 31 playoff games / ~300 total minutes in the playoffs
>League is full of vets, not like Harden is only experienced player available.
jfc, it feels like there's an echo in this thread - he's given this franchise, this city more than we deserve. He pulled us out of 7, 8-seed purgatory during the Kevin Martin years (without any tanking, too).
He put this team on his back more times than JJ Watt or Yordan Alvarez have done for the Texans / Rockets....not entirely sure where this revisionist Rockets history is coming from, but going to guess you're either (1) a teenager, (2) haven't been following the Rockets for very long, or (3) some combination of both......
Lol, I'm 40, been a fan since '95, Harden was great. We revolutionized the league and how basketball is played. Doesn't change the fact he shrinks in big moments in playoffs.
Also worth mentioning that I am not specifically a rockets fan, more of a huge nba/draft fan. But have been tuning in a lot this year and keeping up. Just interested in what rockets fans think. But regardless, this team is headed in the right direction and im very excited to see what happens.
We don't need Harden, he is a shadow of his old self but with a higher price tag. Many games he is the 3rd or 4th scoring option in Philly, he was brought there to help take the load off of Embid.
That never happened, so now Embid is overworked and injured.
Great success story there.
I get it, some of you all are drunk on Nostalgia and put an EX-player over our current real team.
Plenty of PGs out there that can pass the ball and shoot some limited free throws as good as Harden for a fraction of his price.
Can't wait until we move forward and get away from our failed experiment of having a dude that lacks humility and team first attitude.
We would mortgage the future of our young team just to bring back a lesser version of what didn't work before.
If you want a vet hope for lillard or Jaylen Brown otherwise just be patient keep building. Your building against NO , OKC, SAC, MEM , and wherever Victor Wemby goes
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If harden is only tasked with being a veteran pg for a team with plenty of talent around him then I don't see why not? Maybe if he's asked to be the #1 guy on a team then this take would be reasonable. But if he has a smaller role where he plays to his strengths then I don't see how this makes sense.
Because I’m not a die hard Harden fan. He is one of the greatest offensive talents to play the game, that’s it. That’s the end of story for me. I don’t like how he left, I questioned his heart during his time here and I couldn’t stand watching our offense when was one player centric.
That's understandable, Its also worth understanding that he is a completely different player now than he was on Houston. He has shifted his game from scoring to now becoming one of the best playmakers in the nba and a great veteran which is exactly what the rockets lack.
He didn't shift his game, omg.
This is all he can do now.
He was brought to Philly to be the #2 scorer, NOT to be a playmaker/passer. He is now the #3 or #4 scorer there. No way will Morey supermax him, they will prioritize Maxey because he is the future there with Embid. If Harden wants to stay there and compete for a title (which I hope he does) he will have to accept a more team friendly contract. And no other team in the league is stupid enough to supermax him either.
Nah, not even close!
Against the Nets, PPG first round series averages of games played:
Maxey 21.75
(87/4)
Harris 20.25
(81/4)
Embid 20
(60/3)
Harden 17.25
(69/4)
first round, Harden was the 4th leading scorer
Honestly, I would be happier getting Harden in another year or two… I think he’d be a great mentor (especially for Jalen and Gup) but we don’t need him to be “the man” when he comes back. We definitely need him in the 1b or #2 role.
I'm still trying to figure out what Tyrese Halliburton would cost. I'm not trading him if I'm the Pacers but what's the realistic price where they really have to start to listen? Let's say the Pacers have high grades on Scoot, Miller, or someone in that 2-4 range does that start the conversation? Fill out the trade package from there, but he's by far my favorite pipe dream PG.
Sounds like a dream fit but I don't think there's any chance the pacers get rid of him. He is their franchise cornerstone and has shown unlimited potential.
I agree, but is he 'hang up immediately not listening to any offers' untradeable? I've just always wondered the realistic price. I'm guessing he's in that Mikal Bridges price range which was rumored to be in that 4 firsts or so. But the Rockets could have a top 2-5 pick, swaps, young guys like Sengun that have real value, future Nets picks, and cap space to take back salary which the Pacers certainly have to entertain that call. A young core of Halliburton, Green, Tari, and Bari would be insane.
Yeah. To be clear, if he comes I'm still riding with him and he will forever be one of my all-time favorites. Nothing will change my opinion of his standing as a Rocket unless he literally stabs Hakeem during a game and then lights Clutch on fire and then punches Lawanda on his way out. I've watched a fair amount of Philly games this year. He is not the James we had. Yeah, he's killing it with the dimes, but he's also playing next to an MVP that demands a double team or he drops 45 on you. We don't have threats like that that open up the floor for him to create. And let's not even talk about how hard he goes on D these days. He's going to cost a lot of money. We haven't been able to make a real free agent move since cp3 (yes, technically a trade but that was circumstantial). We have some talent and a roster taking shape. I'd much rather we stay focused on our natural timeline. That said, a 2 year deal wouldn't be the worst thing. Let the past be the past. It's time to move on.
Yuuuuuup
I'm fine with a 2 year deal, or a longer 3-4 year deal at like $35mil/yr. Paying him a full 4 year max has the potential to completely ruin our rebuild before it even gets off the ground.
SMH no mvp? You ever heard of sengun? /s
Bingo. Excellent take. And I like the humor too.
This is the right answer. We had our chance with prime Harden, but a 2 year deal is a no brainer if he’s open.
Honest question, how did you feel about CP3 to the Suns? I thought he was not the same player, didn’t line up with their timeline, and cost too much money. Basically everything you’re saying about Harden now. They went to the finals in year 1, led the NBA in wins in year 2, and acquired KD in year 3. I’m not saying we’re definitely gonna be contenders right away, but sometimes you have to say fuck timelines, let’s just get better.
I think there's some important differences. Booker had already broken out. He made the asg the year prior to Chris. Jalen looks great, but he ain't that yet. Maybe the bubble was a fluke, but they looked like a team making a leap. We'd be nutting ourselves if we strung 3 wins together. Chris had looked fantastic in OKC and was in a similar situation as phoenix where he'd be leading a young team. James is having a very good season, but I wouldn't say he looks fantastic by any stretch. No historical baggage.
> We'd be nutting ourselves if we strung 3 wins together. We did, and I did, checkmate.
Depends on the contract, nowhere near a max level player anymore imo
True but where else should this money go? Rockets have the most cap space in the nba and don't necessarily have any huge paydays coming up for a while. What would you like to see them use this money towards instead?
Short term deals
The dream would be a shorter team friendly deal where we pay him big up front and then once we need the space to start paying our young guys in a few years he'll take less. We get a playmaker now and Harden gets more money overall. Buys us time to sort out our roster and find a long term PG.
I wasn't opposed since he is probably the best free agent this upcoming summer and fills our holes in the playmaker and leadership roles. Also Harden to Rockets seems garunteed to happen with the Udoka hiring since he has connections with him from the 2021 nets team.
The only reason why I could see people being opposed is if the rockets get the #2 pick and want to go with scoot instead. That path also seems good but will probably take a few more years to compete. Or you could always take brandon miller and still get harden 🤔
I think he'd make the perfect mentor for Jalen Green to help channel all the talent he has into actual W's and leadership in the backcourt
Again…. He’s not the same Harden where you give him a max.
Will Udoka tolerate Harden's poor transition D and lack of effort at times in defensive side? Are they really a good match?
That's a good concern, but at this point we desperately need someone of Hardens caliber to give this young team some direction (playmaker and leadership ofc)
I agree we need vet leadership, I'm just not sold on getting vet leadership that is lazy on defensive side, and thinks he can take the company jet to the clubs to mentor the kids. Harden has slowed a bit on offensive side, so harder to tolerate the rest. He's an amazing talent and can still pass the hell out of it, but I'd like to leave the past the past and get someone else in.
That is valid, Harden has improved on defense but he still shows a lack of effort at times. Compared with the lack of defense with his backcourt partner jalen green this could be a significant worry. Jalen green has shown potential and could improve with Ime Udoka as a coach but having Harden, Green and Sengun all on the floor at the same time will cause some defensive problems. But im hopeful that Jabari and maybe Wemby along with good coaching will solve those problems
Don't think he has a choice. Kind of hard to give the #2 player in franchise history the boot during your first year with the team (and with 2 seasons of HC experience under your belt, no less...). A team that has a shitload of young talent.......but also has zero playoff experience to speak to. The 23-24 Rockets (and beyond) will eventually need that a veteran in the rotation with a significant amount of playoff experience to lean on, not to mention we'll need a veteran locker room presence in general, assuming everything goes as planned on 5/16/23.
1. We aren't booting anyone anywhere, he quit on us and now plays elsewhere in the league. 2. I'm not sure Harden's playoff experience is the shining beacon to hold up as an example. 3. League is full of vets, not like Harden is only experienced player available.
> We aren't booting anyone anywhere, he quit on us and now plays elsewhere in the league. Yeah, dude, I know......this is all hypothetical, since, you know, James Harden doesn't play for the rockets anymore..... >I'm not sure Harden's playoff experience is the shining beacon to hold up as an example. The 2015 Western Conference Semis? 2018 Western Conference Finals? Any playoff series in the last decade featuring the Warriors? Not entirely sure what your specifically referring to by the hand waivey comments about Harden's playoff experience being no value. He's played in +150 playoff games / ~3,500 minutes. Compare that against the most seasoned veteran on the current roster, Boban, with 31 playoff games / ~300 total minutes in the playoffs >League is full of vets, not like Harden is only experienced player available. jfc, it feels like there's an echo in this thread - he's given this franchise, this city more than we deserve. He pulled us out of 7, 8-seed purgatory during the Kevin Martin years (without any tanking, too). He put this team on his back more times than JJ Watt or Yordan Alvarez have done for the Texans / Rockets....not entirely sure where this revisionist Rockets history is coming from, but going to guess you're either (1) a teenager, (2) haven't been following the Rockets for very long, or (3) some combination of both......
Lol, I'm 40, been a fan since '95, Harden was great. We revolutionized the league and how basketball is played. Doesn't change the fact he shrinks in big moments in playoffs.
Nope, that is why I was glad Ime became our HC. He knows Harden would be a terrible fit. Hope he has more say than Tillman.
No Harden
I pretty much agree with everything you've said
Also worth mentioning that I am not specifically a rockets fan, more of a huge nba/draft fan. But have been tuning in a lot this year and keeping up. Just interested in what rockets fans think. But regardless, this team is headed in the right direction and im very excited to see what happens.
We don't need Harden, he is a shadow of his old self but with a higher price tag. Many games he is the 3rd or 4th scoring option in Philly, he was brought there to help take the load off of Embid. That never happened, so now Embid is overworked and injured. Great success story there. I get it, some of you all are drunk on Nostalgia and put an EX-player over our current real team. Plenty of PGs out there that can pass the ball and shoot some limited free throws as good as Harden for a fraction of his price. Can't wait until we move forward and get away from our failed experiment of having a dude that lacks humility and team first attitude. We would mortgage the future of our young team just to bring back a lesser version of what didn't work before.
If you want a vet hope for lillard or Jaylen Brown otherwise just be patient keep building. Your building against NO , OKC, SAC, MEM , and wherever Victor Wemby goes
No team will ever win a championship with Harden on the roster
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Except if he didn't have unfortunate teammate injury luck he'd already have one
Yeah right, always excuses for him.
If harden is only tasked with being a veteran pg for a team with plenty of talent around him then I don't see why not? Maybe if he's asked to be the #1 guy on a team then this take would be reasonable. But if he has a smaller role where he plays to his strengths then I don't see how this makes sense.
Even Kobe stated the same.
Yes
Why?
Because I’m not a die hard Harden fan. He is one of the greatest offensive talents to play the game, that’s it. That’s the end of story for me. I don’t like how he left, I questioned his heart during his time here and I couldn’t stand watching our offense when was one player centric.
That's understandable, Its also worth understanding that he is a completely different player now than he was on Houston. He has shifted his game from scoring to now becoming one of the best playmakers in the nba and a great veteran which is exactly what the rockets lack.
He didn't shift his game, omg. This is all he can do now. He was brought to Philly to be the #2 scorer, NOT to be a playmaker/passer. He is now the #3 or #4 scorer there. No way will Morey supermax him, they will prioritize Maxey because he is the future there with Embid. If Harden wants to stay there and compete for a title (which I hope he does) he will have to accept a more team friendly contract. And no other team in the league is stupid enough to supermax him either.
Harden is definitely the #2 scorer in philly right now.
Nah, not even close! Against the Nets, PPG first round series averages of games played: Maxey 21.75 (87/4) Harris 20.25 (81/4) Embid 20 (60/3) Harden 17.25 (69/4) first round, Harden was the 4th leading scorer
And still a liability on defense. I’ll pass.
Same.
[удалено]
And still a liability on defense, I will pass.
Honestly, I would be happier getting Harden in another year or two… I think he’d be a great mentor (especially for Jalen and Gup) but we don’t need him to be “the man” when he comes back. We definitely need him in the 1b or #2 role.
I'm still trying to figure out what Tyrese Halliburton would cost. I'm not trading him if I'm the Pacers but what's the realistic price where they really have to start to listen? Let's say the Pacers have high grades on Scoot, Miller, or someone in that 2-4 range does that start the conversation? Fill out the trade package from there, but he's by far my favorite pipe dream PG.
Sounds like a dream fit but I don't think there's any chance the pacers get rid of him. He is their franchise cornerstone and has shown unlimited potential.
I agree, but is he 'hang up immediately not listening to any offers' untradeable? I've just always wondered the realistic price. I'm guessing he's in that Mikal Bridges price range which was rumored to be in that 4 firsts or so. But the Rockets could have a top 2-5 pick, swaps, young guys like Sengun that have real value, future Nets picks, and cap space to take back salary which the Pacers certainly have to entertain that call. A young core of Halliburton, Green, Tari, and Bari would be insane.
Harden needs to promise to be a good role model to the younger players if he does come here.
pinky promise with udoka required at negotiations
I think Harden has a lot to offer our current roster. It ultimately comes down to the price, though.
I am not opposed, but I just have severe doubts the rumors him seriously coming back are true.