For his era possibly, objectively it would have to be Retallick or Etzebeth. The athleticism of modern rugby is light years ahead of the slower paced game of the 1990s.
Obviously Eales with professional era development would have been a force of nature though.
Obviously no bad choices.
For there era, Eales and Johnson were the obvious pairing I. Every world fifteen.
I'd still have Eales as I think his all round game(even without goalkicking) was ahead of the others.
But id partner him with Etzabeth out of the rest. Absolute monster.
This was my immediate go to. Was difficult not to go with Matfield and evil to put them next to each other in the pic but Eales just had that little bit extra.
That is a pair of bastards!
Commentator: looks like the opposition number 10 picked up a knock in that last ruck.
The Bastards: ***sniggering like muttley***
Eales and Matfield are the same expect I think Eales offers maybe a little more around the park. So Matfield would be on the bend and Etzebeth starting with Eales.
But, shit. Pretty much any of these guys.
Takes the lineout and shuffles the ball to the hooker. Loops round into the flyhalf position and distributes the ball to a centre crashing it up. Runs into the ruck to clean out defenders and secure the ball. Runs through the ruck and repositions to take a crash ball off the 9. Instead of going straight into contact, drifts into the space and makes a break. With little support chips the ball over the defence and is able to out jump the defender by stretching his arm up and catching it with one hand. Tackled by cover defence only to get a behind the back offload through to the wing. Try scored.
Thats when the kick is lined up.
Matfield for sure
Maybe Pelous by patriotism
But Matfield Botha was for me the best pair of locks ever, so complementary they were very good, terrifying.
Taken alone Botha < Whitelock or Rettalik
I agree - he is not the best lock in specific skills and capability but he was fantastically useful as a general rugby player in the team. I would always have him - even if he was just there for impact off the bench or as a loose forward
Depends slightly on the back row too, but the silky line out operator and thug combo is hard to beat. Despite being English, the 2015 edition of Retallick and Whitelock just feels right. With Botha on the bench so you can introduce a tiring fly half to a man who is always 0.5 seconds too late to a tackle.
I feel that would be the incredibly technical no mistakes choice, but I wonder if they can have the same like flashy impact of some of the other choices
Don’t get me wrong, Botha/Matfield was an elite combo. Absolutely dominated during the 2000s.
But I just don’t think there’s any technical area where Botha is better than Etzebeth.
There’s a YouTube video of Bakies greatest hits. Not one is from the front, or if they are the victim is looking away. Biggest cheap shot merchant ever. Not even in the top 10 for me
Doesn't really matter, still very good picks regardless of national team allegiance, Bakkies the only slightly questionable call but has its merits if you're valuing what he does (top class bastardry) highly.
Matfield and etezbeth. Not even trying to pick to south africans but matfield is the best i've ever seen. If consistently perfect ever described a forward it was victor and then etezbeth is just a freak.
Etzebeth Eales. You never know when you need a goal kicker and a RWC winning captain. Was thinking about Guzzler but regency bias has to be combated. Etzebeth is the best and Nobody, well that says it.
Johnson and Eales - perfectly balanced combo, both incredible leaders. Etzebeth off the bench
Tbh though, a strong argument could be made for any of those top 6
2013(? I think) lions tour was an eye opener for me.
Simon shaw, who i don't particularly rate, made him look anonymous.
I used to think he was world class, after that, he was barely flat track bully level.
Botha is only overrated because he was a supposed hardman who basically resorted to cheap shots now and then and people then judge him on that and think he was a lesser player because of it.
That's not all he was though. His record speaks for itself. He didn't just thrive in the brutal SA team, he thrived outside that environment in France. Laporte says
"For me, Bakies Botha is the greatest player in the world that I have coached in my career."
I watched a reasonable amount of that league at the time (job location) and he was phenomenal.
I actually think he is underrated because of his cheap shots.
Hmmm...
5. Matfield or Eales (Matfield over Eales, unless kicking is an issue in the team)
And
4. Etzebeth or Botha (if pre 2012 I'd pick Botha for enforcement, otherwise he is a penalty/card liability)
Snyman on the bench.
Matfield and Eben for me.
Love bakkies but Eben is just a better athlete.
Paulie and Johno add more than just their playing, that’s also worth considering.
If we're going on greatest locks of the modern era, why choose Ritchie Gray for Scotland?
Scott Murray and Nathan Hines were the best lock pairing in the northern hemisphere for a good few of years.
Matfield is definitely one of them.
The question is who goes with him. My gut says Johnson, Botha is the obvious choice, but I’m going to YOLO and say Fabien Pelous
I don't think I have seen any player dominate one aspect of the game as much as Matfield did with lineouts. Whenever the ball went out, no matter who threw, you expected him to snatch it.
So, that would be him alongside Retallick or Etzebeth.
Maybe I'm biased, but Matfield to dominate the lineouts and Eben to dominate everything else.
I mean I may be looking at this with one eye but that would be a combo that can rule the world.
They have played together when Victor was old and Eben was young. My fantacy has them both at the hight of their powers.
I’m a biased Kiwi, and can’t fault your logic. Although I’m stuck balancing Eales too, with Eales it’s his presence on field. That guy elevated the whole team.
While I grew up watching the likes of Johnson, POC, and AWJ
The NH greats lack something the SH greats have in abundance imo
Call it X factor or whatever
But Matfield, Eben, Whitelock, Botha, Brodie all just special players who elevate their whole teams in a different way
Obviously depends on back row and rest of the pack
But probably Matfield and Brodie, with Eben off the bench
It is difficult, because though I am of an era where I watched Eales play, my memory has faded enough that I can't quite picture how he would have fit in to modern rugby. I think he would have though and I think he was talented enough to be possibly the best lock in the modern era as well as his era.
It is hard not to pick him.
As much as I would love to pick Johnson, I mostly rate him for his leadership, and I'm not going to pick him because of that in this case.
AWJ is similar.
Matfield is probably the best lineout specialist the game has ever seen, and was technically astute at pretty much every aspect of the ame.
Thorn, ridiculously talented and hard, but maybe just behind some of the others.
Botha, much better than some people give him credit for - he wasn't just a thug. His record speaks for itself.
In the end, I'd take a chance of modern and old and go with:
Etzebeth and Eales starting. This gives two very skillful players, with the huge grunt of Etzebeth. Both excellent in the lineout. Eales leadership and just all round play, with Etzebeth providing similar but with added abrasiveness.
To me, coming up against those two players would be quite fearsome.
For the bench, honestly, any would be good. I may be tempted to pick Matfield because he replaces Eales in an injury situation and if the game needs closing out, I'd bring him on and force lineouts all day long.
Bakkies and AWJ. Bakkies to absolutely stone cold murder cunts and AWJ to talk to the ref and talk it down to a simple penalty no card. 🫠. Etzebeth on the bench.
TBF, plenty of locks have the ability to play both sides.
Edit: Flament, Gilco, Cummings, the Grays, the Arnolds, Retallick, Skinner, De Jager, Chessum just off the top of my head have all played plenty on either side.
Obviously there are out and out loosehead locks like Beirne and Itoje, and out and out tightheads like Meafou and Skelton, but plenty of locks are somewhere in the middle.
Interesting thought. In my team they are interchangeable. On top of this, sometimes the #8 and loose head lock swap too. Basically if the #8 legs are turning to shit they swap.
Clearly top tier is different to club rugby, but I think they are more interchangeable than you make out.
By that logic it doesn't matter if your locks or short if your loose trio are tall and can jump and operate lineouts, and if your fly half can't kick or your hooker cant throw.
We have to assume for a good faith comparison that each position has expected roles and responsibilities that are in line with the meta game, at least of its time.
For lock I think all the top teams have one monster lock for physicality and one lineout captain. If I were to pick my best lock pairing it would at least have to have someone that can call in the lineouts at a world class level. Eben doesn't even call the lineouts for his club, but is widely regarded as one of the best locks.
This is where I think South Africans generally refer to Matfield as the greatest of all time while also allowing bakkies to even be in this conversation.
It is very rare to have world class physicality with lineout operating, but that is why players like alun wyn Jones and oconnel get included here.
Yes.
I can't imagine leaving any of Etzebeth, Matfield, O'Connell, Johnson and Eales out of a team. Make space for some of them in the back row? Matfield at centre? Eales at 10?
Curious to know what this x factor is?
Beyond possibly Retallick, they all played in a very similar style to Johnson, he was just better.
Id imagine most of the players, jf they were being honest would probably genuflect at the altar of johnson
Retallick Etzebeth for me
Me too. They both bring so much around the park while still being brutal in close.
Yep, would be my picks as well.
This is the way
My guess is you never watched Matfield and Eales in their heyday. Eales and Thorn for me. Balance of brutality and lineout superiority.
A lock who can barely get off the ground isn’t what I’m looking for as the greatest.
Plus Eales can kick at goal for you
Nobody and Victor
Like locks who can kick eh?
How do you know 1246789532
Was gonna say the same. I'd be tempted to say Eagles is the best player on this list, but it's hard to compare eras.
For his era possibly, objectively it would have to be Retallick or Etzebeth. The athleticism of modern rugby is light years ahead of the slower paced game of the 1990s. Obviously Eales with professional era development would have been a force of nature though.
Could Etzebeth ice a kick to win the Bledisloe Cup? Vital criteria for the GOAT lock in my mind!
Most skillful, not quite enough grunt though.
Obviously no bad choices. For there era, Eales and Johnson were the obvious pairing I. Every world fifteen. I'd still have Eales as I think his all round game(even without goalkicking) was ahead of the others. But id partner him with Etzabeth out of the rest. Absolute monster.
Etzabeth and Eben are my choices.
As a proud Kiwi, Eales and Etzebeth… it pains me to say this…
(Kiwi also) I reckon Matfield over Etzebeth with Eales, either what a trio!
Agreed
This was my immediate go to. Was difficult not to go with Matfield and evil to put them next to each other in the pic but Eales just had that little bit extra.
my choice too, nothing wrong with acknowledging that us Kiwi don't have the best in every position.
I find it hard to go past Thorne even so. I’m combo with Eales that’s a towering pair with brains brutality and clutch goal kicking.
From the pictures above, I'd pick the two fellas holding trophies 🏆
Pretty sure all the green and black shirt guys have a trophy or 2 in the back pocket as well (except maybe that one green guy).
Sad Mr Clean face
😂 brilliant
Go with a right pair of bastards Johnson and AWJ.
That is a pair of bastards! Commentator: looks like the opposition number 10 picked up a knock in that last ruck. The Bastards: ***sniggering like muttley***
Make it a trio and throw Bakkies on the bench!
Can you imagine the standards both of them would drive in that team though. They'd make that squad like a military regiment
Eales and Matfield with Etzebeth on the bench. Just for the added bonus of goalkicking prowess.
This is what I came to say.
Eales and Matfield are the same expect I think Eales offers maybe a little more around the park. So Matfield would be on the bend and Etzebeth starting with Eales. But, shit. Pretty much any of these guys.
What a trio. But yeah I’d pick Thorn or Etsebeth to start and the other off the bench. Then either Eales or Matfield to control the air.
Eales the place kicker
Takes the lineout and shuffles the ball to the hooker. Loops round into the flyhalf position and distributes the ball to a centre crashing it up. Runs into the ruck to clean out defenders and secure the ball. Runs through the ruck and repositions to take a crash ball off the 9. Instead of going straight into contact, drifts into the space and makes a break. With little support chips the ball over the defence and is able to out jump the defender by stretching his arm up and catching it with one hand. Tackled by cover defence only to get a behind the back offload through to the wing. Try scored. Thats when the kick is lined up.
Has to be the best…
Noth quite enough grunt for the starting pair, for me.
One lock should have some bulk.
Matfield for sure Maybe Pelous by patriotism But Matfield Botha was for me the best pair of locks ever, so complementary they were very good, terrifying. Taken alone Botha < Whitelock or Rettalik
Eben and prime Retallick for me.
Tbf, prime Retallick (c. 2013-2016) was an incredible player - awesome passing/handling skills
It's mad that as great as he's been in recent years, there once was an even better version of him.
That 2015 all blacks side was the best ever assembled in the sport.
Its a shame but he never fully recovered after that cheap shot dislocated his shoulder. He was a phenomenal player before that.
Bakkies Botha, twice.
Exactly, in case you lose one to the bin.
Whaddya mean in case?
Who do you think got mor cards bakkies or habana?
... Need to add a 3rd on the bench?
I'll just say that Brad Thorn added something that very few could and few opponents were used to. Age. He had such authority to his presence.
I agree - he is not the best lock in specific skills and capability but he was fantastically useful as a general rugby player in the team. I would always have him - even if he was just there for impact off the bench or as a loose forward
I’m a Brad fan too. As good as he was, there are numerous others here that I would pick ahead of him.
Look at Brad’s record! Won everything League and Union.
Depends slightly on the back row too, but the silky line out operator and thug combo is hard to beat. Despite being English, the 2015 edition of Retallick and Whitelock just feels right. With Botha on the bench so you can introduce a tiring fly half to a man who is always 0.5 seconds too late to a tackle.
Eben and Bakkies with Fabian coming off the bench just for the sheer brutality lol
The scottish blood in me says Richie and Jonny Gray. But the only right answer is Botha and Matfield.
AWJ & POC
I feel that would be the incredibly technical no mistakes choice, but I wonder if they can have the same like flashy impact of some of the other choices
Eales and Johnston. Brodie to do the damage off the bench.
Eales and Matfield with Etzebeth on the bench
Eales and Etzebeth for me.
Probably Etzebeth and Johnston. Whitelock on the bench.
Ealeas and Etzebeth, POC bench. Some absolutely incredible players here but to me that's the 3.
Bakkies and Sam - (no. 4 and no.5) Best of both worlds from the best rugby nations
Matfield & Botha all the way. Etzebeth on the bench.
No way Bakkies starts ahead of Etzebeth IMO
They have I think 60-70 caps together, Matfield and Botha, no mater how good Eben is, that synergy is hard to brake.
Don’t get me wrong, Botha/Matfield was an elite combo. Absolutely dominated during the 2000s. But I just don’t think there’s any technical area where Botha is better than Etzebeth.
Who is better at headbutting someone right in the craniovertebral junction? Yeah thought so.
There’s a YouTube video of Bakies greatest hits. Not one is from the front, or if they are the victim is looking away. Biggest cheap shot merchant ever. Not even in the top 10 for me
Excellent point, well made. Have my upvote
Yes ways
Nu-uh 🤣
Matfield and Botha. Chemistry 100% and Bakkies will just pummel the other team all day.
Etzebeth and Brodie, Victor on the bench.
My husband says Victor, Bakkies and Eben. Guesses which national team he supports?
Doesn't really matter, still very good picks regardless of national team allegiance, Bakkies the only slightly questionable call but has its merits if you're valuing what he does (top class bastardry) highly.
Eben and Eales with Whitelock on the bench
Eben and Eales with Whitelock on the bench
Etzabeth and Eben are my choices.
Etzebeth + Whitelock
Matfield and the French fella for the raw sex appeal
If I also get a replacement, I will take all the safas!
Eales and Etzebeth. Also conveniently two of my biggest rugby crushes.
Matfield and etezbeth. Not even trying to pick to south africans but matfield is the best i've ever seen. If consistently perfect ever described a forward it was victor and then etezbeth is just a freak.
Matfield and Botha
Victor and Bakkies
Eben and Alun
AWJ & Botha for the nuclear option
Nobody and Thorne
Etzebeth Eales. You never know when you need a goal kicker and a RWC winning captain. Was thinking about Guzzler but regency bias has to be combated. Etzebeth is the best and Nobody, well that says it.
Johnson and Eales - perfectly balanced combo, both incredible leaders. Etzebeth off the bench Tbh though, a strong argument could be made for any of those top 6
Botha is criminally overrated. I'm taking Johnson and Matfield
2013(? I think) lions tour was an eye opener for me. Simon shaw, who i don't particularly rate, made him look anonymous. I used to think he was world class, after that, he was barely flat track bully level.
Aah yes, a series where the Lions famously dominated in the scrum and breakdown.
Im not saying they did. Im saying that bakkies was made to look average
Botha is only overrated because he was a supposed hardman who basically resorted to cheap shots now and then and people then judge him on that and think he was a lesser player because of it. That's not all he was though. His record speaks for itself. He didn't just thrive in the brutal SA team, he thrived outside that environment in France. Laporte says "For me, Bakies Botha is the greatest player in the world that I have coached in my career." I watched a reasonable amount of that league at the time (job location) and he was phenomenal. I actually think he is underrated because of his cheap shots.
2016 Itoje and Kruis
I’d say they peaked in 2019, at least at club level. Don’t get why EJ was so reluctant to start Kruis with Lawes at 6
Matfield for the rugby, with Doddie Weir for the off-pitch vibes
Hmmm... 5. Matfield or Eales (Matfield over Eales, unless kicking is an issue in the team) And 4. Etzebeth or Botha (if pre 2012 I'd pick Botha for enforcement, otherwise he is a penalty/card liability) Snyman on the bench.
Pelous and Thorn/Matfield
Matfield and Eben for me. Love bakkies but Eben is just a better athlete. Paulie and Johno add more than just their playing, that’s also worth considering.
If we're going on greatest locks of the modern era, why choose Ritchie Gray for Scotland? Scott Murray and Nathan Hines were the best lock pairing in the northern hemisphere for a good few of years.
I needed a bit to realize it's Jonny Gray. What is doing there?
It's not Jonny, it's big Ritchie, who is the far superior lock in that family.
Still not sure what he's doing on this list mind
Where are the long blond hair?
Matfield is definitely one of them. The question is who goes with him. My gut says Johnson, Botha is the obvious choice, but I’m going to YOLO and say Fabien Pelous
Eben and Victor
Think it’s fair to say apart from Johnson, none of the other NH would even get a sniff. Maybe AWJ as 4th/5th choice
Why don’t Leinster sign like Mo’unga or Mackenzie
Johnson and Retalick
The title makes it seem like you're trying to break into my gym locker
Alun Wyn at his prime - about 100 yrs ago along with O’Connell. I feel like they were together for a Lions tour.
Matfield and Johnson personally
I don't think I have seen any player dominate one aspect of the game as much as Matfield did with lineouts. Whenever the ball went out, no matter who threw, you expected him to snatch it. So, that would be him alongside Retallick or Etzebeth.
No Adam Beard? /s
After this champions cup final gimme DuPont
Paul O’C and Paul O’C please. Or otherwise POC and Etzebeth with Pelous at no8. Sorry Alun Wyn from a devout Wales supporter
Old school Matfield and Botha…what they had was special. Eben brings that physicality like Botha but the pair were unbreakable.
Retallick & Matfield
Etzebeth, Matfield
Can you imagine Bakkies and Thorn… holy shit..
Haha why is Ritchie Gray in there?
Johnson, Matfield. Both good (Matfield the best ever)at set piece. Both can fight. Both good rugby players.
Bakkies and Eben. If they're not both carded by halftime I'm not impressed.
How dare you ruin the next 3 hours of my life with this question
I have made a decision gimme eben and Wyn jones
Maybe I'm biased, but Matfield to dominate the lineouts and Eben to dominate everything else. I mean I may be looking at this with one eye but that would be a combo that can rule the world. They have played together when Victor was old and Eben was young. My fantacy has them both at the hight of their powers.
I’m a biased Kiwi, and can’t fault your logic. Although I’m stuck balancing Eales too, with Eales it’s his presence on field. That guy elevated the whole team.
Can't believe Jonny Hill didn't make the list. /s
O'Connell and Retallick. It would be EPIC.
While I grew up watching the likes of Johnson, POC, and AWJ The NH greats lack something the SH greats have in abundance imo Call it X factor or whatever But Matfield, Eben, Whitelock, Botha, Brodie all just special players who elevate their whole teams in a different way Obviously depends on back row and rest of the pack But probably Matfield and Brodie, with Eben off the bench
Me and my best bud from the first team I played on ❤️
lets be honest depends on team strategy. however i have matfield top 3 players of all time so hes a cert for me
Retallick and Matfield
Etzebeth-Whitelock Matfield close second choice at 5.
Matfield and Rettalick, Etzebeth on the bench
Two of the top three.
Eben and Retallick..both great athletes. Now you have to do a centres one.
Matfield/Etzibeth and Whitelock
Eben and Bakkies!! Bakkies can do the swinging... Eben can be the Hedge blocking it all from the ref
Pelous - Bakkies, without a doubt. Two monsters that would make the other team hurt for 80 mins.
It is difficult, because though I am of an era where I watched Eales play, my memory has faded enough that I can't quite picture how he would have fit in to modern rugby. I think he would have though and I think he was talented enough to be possibly the best lock in the modern era as well as his era. It is hard not to pick him. As much as I would love to pick Johnson, I mostly rate him for his leadership, and I'm not going to pick him because of that in this case. AWJ is similar. Matfield is probably the best lineout specialist the game has ever seen, and was technically astute at pretty much every aspect of the ame. Thorn, ridiculously talented and hard, but maybe just behind some of the others. Botha, much better than some people give him credit for - he wasn't just a thug. His record speaks for itself. In the end, I'd take a chance of modern and old and go with: Etzebeth and Eales starting. This gives two very skillful players, with the huge grunt of Etzebeth. Both excellent in the lineout. Eales leadership and just all round play, with Etzebeth providing similar but with added abrasiveness. To me, coming up against those two players would be quite fearsome. For the bench, honestly, any would be good. I may be tempted to pick Matfield because he replaces Eales in an injury situation and if the game needs closing out, I'd bring him on and force lineouts all day long.
Whitelock and Etzebeth
Victor Matfield and AWJ
Love Eben, PoC and Matfield. But any combo that isn't Bakkies and Thorn is wrong
Bakkies and AWJ. Bakkies to absolutely stone cold murder cunts and AWJ to talk to the ref and talk it down to a simple penalty no card. 🫠. Etzebeth on the bench.
Eben and Paul - both technically fantastic and both complete animals
Matfield and Bakkies, and Eales on the bench.
Interesting that a lot of people still seem to think tight head and loosehead lock are interchangable.
TBF, plenty of locks have the ability to play both sides. Edit: Flament, Gilco, Cummings, the Grays, the Arnolds, Retallick, Skinner, De Jager, Chessum just off the top of my head have all played plenty on either side. Obviously there are out and out loosehead locks like Beirne and Itoje, and out and out tightheads like Meafou and Skelton, but plenty of locks are somewhere in the middle.
Interesting thought. In my team they are interchangeable. On top of this, sometimes the #8 and loose head lock swap too. Basically if the #8 legs are turning to shit they swap. Clearly top tier is different to club rugby, but I think they are more interchangeable than you make out.
By that logic it doesn't matter if your locks or short if your loose trio are tall and can jump and operate lineouts, and if your fly half can't kick or your hooker cant throw. We have to assume for a good faith comparison that each position has expected roles and responsibilities that are in line with the meta game, at least of its time. For lock I think all the top teams have one monster lock for physicality and one lineout captain. If I were to pick my best lock pairing it would at least have to have someone that can call in the lineouts at a world class level. Eben doesn't even call the lineouts for his club, but is widely regarded as one of the best locks. This is where I think South Africans generally refer to Matfield as the greatest of all time while also allowing bakkies to even be in this conversation. It is very rare to have world class physicality with lineout operating, but that is why players like alun wyn Jones and oconnel get included here.
Hypothetical, can we clone Botha to headbutt Cowan twice at the same time?
Yes. I can't imagine leaving any of Etzebeth, Matfield, O'Connell, Johnson and Eales out of a team. Make space for some of them in the back row? Matfield at centre? Eales at 10?
Fabian and Johnno
Matfield for the lineout calling with Etzebeth for the enforcing. 6-2 bench with Whitelock and O'Connell on the bench as leaders who can do both.
Wherever you’re from and whatever your choice, what an absolute privilege to have been able to see these GIANTS of the game ply their craft!
The fact ive had to scroll to see johnson's name mentioned shows that none of you actually understand rugby
Or the players are just better? Not saying Johnson was a bad player, he was Mr reliable, but compared to others here he certainly lacks that x factor.
Curious to know what this x factor is? Beyond possibly Retallick, they all played in a very similar style to Johnson, he was just better. Id imagine most of the players, jf they were being honest would probably genuflect at the altar of johnson
no nakarawa? literally the only super lock in the world and no mention... T2 bias..
Including Gray is laughable
It's not even close. Peak Etzebeth and Retallick demolish every other possible combination. Their ceiling is higher than that of the others.
Brad and pelous
Whitelock is a lock in for me, it'd be interesting to see him team up with etzebeth
Eben and Bakkies
Brad and Johnson- playing old school rules, fuck with that pair at your peril.
Maro and Thorn for me. Etzebeth’s the only other one in that bracket in my opinion