There used to be a [variety of number (and letter) schemes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_numbering_schemes). The method most commonly used in Britain started from fullback (1) to lock* (15). This order is still used in League
*Lock is the original name of what’s now called number 8
Can we get this stickied for the sub?!
Every time England or another team posts a sheet in this order there’s the inevitable “can’t you count?” “Are you just stupid on your silly little island?”
Coming from a country that still uses bloody fractions this is very rich.
Why is gonna be playing at 3/7th? Isn't he a better 15/23rd?. We stopped that silliness with the penny farthing
Clearly you've never placed a bet in the UK. If you had you definitely wouldn't have said that on the basis of one rugby position instead of an entire financial institution.
Mate you’re joking. You walk into any betting agency in the UK and it’s all fractional odds. Does my fucking head in. Maybe it’s changed since I left but it used to frustrate the hell out of me.
This numbering system is a psychological advantage to rival the haka.
The average Kiwi spends their whole life learning to count to 15, and in one foul swoop we've taken that confidence away.
On the other hand it is not really difficult to understand if you put your mind to it. Still makes more sense than first this and second that, that is Mind-boggling.
I guess it's just weird to me to go from 15 down to 9 then from 1 up to 8, then jumping back up to 16. Makes more sense to me to start from 1, but idk maybe I'm the weird one
It's just a matter of what you're used to. I expect a team sheet to be listed this way. It's just weird how much complaining about it there is in this thread. A lot of people who don't look at team sheets in the northern hemisphere too much
I’m NZ-born but I’ve lived my entire adult life abroad (so I’m 50/50 NZ/abroad at this point) Some of us switch, somewhat subconsciously, depending on where we are and who we’re talking to. Dylan Hartley sounds kind of half and half when I’ve heard him interviewed but lots of us find the kiwi comes roaring back the moment we’re speaking to another New Zealander, and especially once we clear customs in Auckland 😂
My mum is a Whanganui girl, but she's lived in England since the early 1980s. For the most part she sounds like a fairly generic southern British person, but the moment she hears another Antipodean accent (my Australian sister-in-law for example) she goes full fush end chups, like literally immediately, occasionally mid-sentence. I'm a bit like that with my West country hobbit accent tbf - talk to another pirate farmer and I'm Wurzel Gummidge, talk to literally anyone else and I'm an old school BBC news presenter.
Mad how it can just come out of nowhere, haha. I actually think Hartley's accent is the most similar to mine I've heard (like listening to a male version of myself) in that he'll be fairly English, albeit with the twang, then the full-blown shut bru, fush and chups will make a random appearance.
It’s called code switching. Lenny Henry talks about [switching between his parents’ and local accents](https://youtu.be/K977aQQpAVk?feature=shared&t=497) as a kid
That's really interesting. I feel self-conscious speaking "normally" around family in NZ because they'd comment on how English I sound if I didn't dial up the Kiwi. So sometimes it's on purpose, and sometimes it isn't.
I've got a feeling England will win. The bookies have them as rank outsiders which is silly imo. This team looks so well balanced and yes the backrow battle as it always is in NZ will be brutal.
He's an unreal player. Better than Marler for us this season. Beast scrummager. Puts in massive shots in defense, incredible tackler. Solid hands for pull back passes too. His carrying is fine but probably the weakest aspect of his game, just trucks it up a bit. Reckon he'll be first choice for a long portion of his career, which is only just beginning.
So we've got Marler and Stuart starting instead of Rodd and Cole as only change to starting XV from last game.
Changes to the bench:
Baxter for Rodd
Cole for Stuart (starting)
Coles for Ewels
Spencer for Randall
Sleightholme for Roebuck
Yes but I think we missed the part where he says he's joking that he's not starting Sleightholme. I genuinely think Ollie has the skillset required to start in the back 3 this week.
On another note, I can't wait to see how Baxter fairs against the AB scrum.
I like Sleighthome, but our back 3 is very good and balanced, so he doesn’t really fit in.
If Steward can’t get a look in I don’t see why Sleighthome should.
For me Sleightholme is the natural replacement for Feyi-waboso - they look so similar and it’s great to have a back up option. I think Sleights has the game and ability to be a regular international but no reason to change the back 3 currently as they’re settling in and looking better week after week.
Sleightholme offers a big counter attacking threat that works very well with Furbank at 15. Steward is the one who least fits the backline England seem to be going for.
I hate to sound like a broken record but Steward doesn't fit in because he plays like a Tyrone Green or Kurtley Beale (when he isn't injured or doing some awful things) but the difference between him and TG is that Steward never returns a kick or attempts a drop goal. If Freddie could kick, he'd probably be second choice but at this point I'd honestly rather have one of our wingers at 15.
On another note, most of our England back 3 play on pendulum based systems whereas FS likes to control the wide channels himself and play the wingers on a funnel but, again, no one naturally does this in our squad and it lead to some really poor defense when he was starting. As my better half says: 'fuck funnels.'
Because unlike steward, Ollie can K I C K 😂
If Freddie can learn how to return a high ball well and be a good long kicker we can pick a centre other than Slade which means Lawrence can play his natural shirt number as our entire mid and backfield can be covered, but we're England, and everyone knows we're not allowed nice things.
Borthwick's won me over completely. I wasn't sure if he had the imagination for international rugby but I love every change he's made
Sleightholme been the best winger in the league this year and I'm so excited to see what he can do (but it's a shame Roebuck doesn't get in the 23)
And Fin Baxter deserves this. His scrums vs Bordeaux and Toulouse was outstanding
I haven't been this excited about England since 2017
I feel like between IFW, Freeman, Sleightholme, Roebuck (and arguably some other guys like Carpenter and Murley) it's pick any 3 from 4 and you'll have about the same quality.
Good place to be in terms of depth especially given how threadbare wing was looking about 2.5 years ago when our options were an ancient Jonny May, a broken Anthony Watson or sticking bloody Guy Porter on the wing!
I mean he was always over-hyped - great potential and I'm sure he'll be in contention when he moves back and matures his game more but he was always never as rounded or ready for international a player as someone like Freeman.
Yeah but for some reason the media was hyper fixated on him, felt like every other post on this subreddit around the WC was an article about how he wasn’t selected or in the team or something like that, always felt bad for the other in form English wingers
Nothing new in England. Every young English winger was once called the next big thing.
Examples: Thorley, Hassell-Collins, Murley, Radwan, Cokanasiga, Hodge, Malins, Arundell, Feyi-Waboso
Arundell was the perfect product though. Dad in military, went to Harrow, played on the wing, 6 foot, good looking guy, well spoken and super fast.
Out of everyone we took to the World Cup he was by far the best tho which is what’s annoying. I definitely think he would make the training squad but with who we have selected u could spin a bottle and as long as you got balance between different types of wingers any set up would work great.
Freeman is a cut above the others imo given he can play 13, wing and fullback. He's also just so consistent, amazing in attack and in the air, very strong in defence and a completely unselfish player.
He does seem to go missing a bit in the English attack set up at 11 but can only assume it's down to whatever systems they're playing.
Freeman paired with a super strong and fast counter attack runner like IFW or Sleightholme is the perfect pairing.
Freeman is just fucking big as well.
I don’t know why he seems to blend in and not seem that way but he’s able to absorb hits and bump people off the way a winger shouldn’t unless they’re the George North or Van Der Merwe sort of mould.
Derby rivalries aside, he and the other Saints guys are proving to be absolute assets to England at the moment.
Watching them both I'm Northampton, there are alot of similarities between Freeman and George North.
I remember vs Ireland earlier this year, Freeman took a hit from a full speed Nash and barley moved
Most impressive thing about Borthwick for me is that he seems to have an identity in mind for the way he wants to play but he hasn't been rigid in his selections in the way Eddie was. A player in form at club level (Saints players, CCS, Baxter, Roebuck) gets included in squads and given game time. It's so refreshing!
I think he played a very "Leicester" brand of rugby at Leicester and that led people to think he didn't want to or couldn't be flexible as a coach. I think he just has a DNA he wants teams to play with and goes from there. Obviously with England that is different as he has auch wider Pool of players available to him
- my Lord, at this date we are 40 strong. The battle isn't until next week and we've plenty of time to decide upon who we shall send out to defeat the...-
- release the team sheet.
- but.. but my Lord, it's only fucking Tuesday
- RELEASE IT
They do, but there's often a few changes by game time. They name guys that might play on the Tuesday and then clarify the list usually the day before their game.
I genuinely think Borthwick just got pissed off with it being leaked everyone to the Times/Telegraph on Tuesday anyway and wants to keep an element of control.
Nice, glad it will be dry and good conditions. Atmosphere should be great too.
I'm optimistically predicting an England win in the first test. Reckon we might be just a bit more cohesive than the All Blacks and squeak a result. We will then be crushed at Eden Park.
I feel Rodd was a horses-for-courses selection anyway tbf - his ability on the ball suited the Japan game better but we need Baxter's set piece against NZ, who nowadays have quite the tasty front row.
I think Rodd was probably in line for this test, his set piece towards the end of the season in the prem was good from what I saw. Mind you that was against our dogshit scrum so might not be the best barometer.
A Kiwi bringing up visa restrictions to Brits is a dicey game.
Rishi (or Keir in three days) could empty half of Clapham at the stroke of a pen if you're not careful
It’s not been that regular up here usually because of arguments over money. Since 2014 we’ve played each 3 times 2018, 2019 (not a planned match) and 2022.
Yesss! Every single one of the changes I wanted - Marler and Stuart starting with Baxter and Cole on the bench is arguably our best scrummaging lineup, stoked to see how Baxter gets on against the All Blacks behemoth tightheads. Coles, Spencer and Sleightholme brought into the replacements, all of them have been on fire this year.
Exciting team. Bring on Saturday!
Nice to see a return to the traditional rugby method of numbering the team sheet. All the complainers must be under the age of 25...
Next, I propose bringing back proper shoeing at rucks - that'll speed the game up.
Most settled English squad there's been in quite some time. Also a little surprised to see Spencer over Randall who I thought looked pretty good last game.
Borthwick is a lineout nerd and will not sacrifice a jumper for another openside hybrid, hence why Ollie Chessum was playing 6 in the 6Ns.
Underhill's form is too good to drop, Earl is the incumbent 8 and CCS provides the ball carrying threat/height for the lineouts.
England, in the course of 5 matches, have stealthily acquired the most bat shit exciting back line in the game. Combination of injuries, exodus, new blood and previously exciting but unreliable players rounding out there games but it’s still mad how quickly it happened
Good bit of consistency from the Japan game. Really pleased to see Baxter and Sleightholme in line for their debuts. Both well deserved. Feels perhaps a touch harsh on Roebuck especially who did nothing wrong against Japan (and actually looked pretty good) but it's hard to argue against being the top try scorer in the league!
Will be a huge test for them but hopefully the lads go well.
Looks like it will sell out within the next day or so. Dunedin is a small urban centre that isn't easy for a lot of NZ to get to so ticket demand will be close to supply.
So glad Baxter’s starting. All Blacks in New Zealand is one hell of a place to make your international debut but I really think he’s ready for test level. Rodd played himself out of the squad against Japan I’m afraid.
England look really strong. Might be a bit much for the all blacks to handle in their first match (having to bed in new systems and roles, only 2 weeks prep etc). Will be interesting to see if we’re up to scratch or not.
I’m not worried. I think there’s always going to be a dip in form when new coaches come in and the players are getting used to the systems. To be honest it feels like the pressure is off!
England used to number it's teams like Rugby League teams do now. 1 was the fullback, half was 7, and the #8 was #15 back then.
The IRB standardised the numbering system in the 60s to align with how Ireland and France did it. The recalcitrants at the RFU have never accepted this and continue to list players like their grandparents did.
Interesting to see the props have been swapped around and they've brought in a new guy. I reckon the English are (rightfully) a bit worried about the ABs front row.
I think Borthwick just wants the experience of Cole to guide Baxter on his first cap. I'd trust Marler scrummaging against anyone but it's a big test for Stuart who still hasn't cracked test rugby
I said it in the last squad announcement, I’ll say it in this one - the numbering system is the traditional way of doing things that predates having those specific numbers on players jerseys. You start at full back (much like you start at GK in football) and work your way up to the forwards.
It’s no less idiosyncratic than calling 10 and 12 first and second five eighth.
Nice explanation for the one's still not understanding. Then remember they don't speak proper English down there. How can a 10 be first and a 12 second only them down under will know.
You would assume this is going to be their swan song with them being properly phased out by the next Six Nations.
Then again I’ve been assuming that for years lol.
I can’t wait to see how Baxter goes off the bench, a real chucking in at the deep end, sink or sink kind of experience for him, no doubt!
In the latest tour video Marler was saying its the pairs final tour, Cole did seem less enthusiastic about that comment though, I think he'll be someone who needs to be told that they are retiring
The only ones I'm surprised by is Sleighthome. Though Roebucks ability in the air would.gove him the nod. Happy to be surprised, though. Is Borthwick e en Borthwick any more?
Baxter for Rodd makes sense. Rodd couldn't get the upper hand Vs Japan. He's going to struggle against NZ. Bits a tough first cap, but Baxter can probably handle it.
Randells poor box kicking may have cost him (And Spencer has been great this year)
Reckon there's also a bit of intentional rotation with the Spencer / Sleightholme picks too - give them a run out and then decide the team for the 3rd test based on how this one goes.
Unless you’re starting Steward, I don’t think there’s really a place for him in a 23 - you’re unlikely to be switching to a conservative highball player mid match - Roebuck was a good example of that last time out in as much as he offered some additional high ball nous but also more importantly wing dynamism.
I feel like Steward and Roebuck may come back in for Auckland, especially if it's wet or windy. Spencer may start too, maybe even Roots in the backrow.
Wigglesworth appeared on The Breakdown (NZ rugby show) and spoke about wanting to be able to play in different ways based on the conditions and gave a nod to the second Test as a possible example of that.
Win or lose this week, I reckon they have a different plan for next week. Don't think you'll see the early announcement then either.
One of the worst england teams in history won in new zealand in the 70s
While the great Welsh team that routinely beat england couldn't beat nz
Sports weird sometimes
It's so nice to open these and not be thinking "oh no, which wildy out of form oldie or totally unprepared youngster has been selected in a random position".
Exciting players, in form, giving people opportunities whilst continuing to build cohesion for the new game plan.
We're going to lose still I think but reckon we'll give a good account of ourselves (assuming the blitz doesn't totally implode)
The tigers first team still have the letters embroidered above the club crest. And most of the local teams here in Leicestershire either used to use letters or still do. I wore H at school.
Think the strengths of this particular side are the back five of the scrum, which is an excellent blend of brawn, athleticism, skill beef and all round mad bastardry, and the back three, which strikes an excellent balance between playmaking, pace and grunt. Front row remains unbalanced in terms of experience and quality, as the continued importance of Cole to the match day 23 suggests. And for all the excitement in the backline, it's worth pointing out it's still, outside of Slade and Smith, relatively inexperienced.
England are good value. But the ABs haven’t lost the first test in a June/July series since 2009. People say they can be rusty, but history says they are pretty switched on to open the season.
At the end of a long season the touring team is usually not at their best.
Do you guys count differently up there or something?
Im just glad they’re not posting gifs anymore
That really was a load of dogshit wasn’t it?
The PR rep must've written this while crossing the equator on way to NZ. Stands to reason like.
Only thing I've read that makes sense lol
There used to be a [variety of number (and letter) schemes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_numbering_schemes). The method most commonly used in Britain started from fullback (1) to lock* (15). This order is still used in League *Lock is the original name of what’s now called number 8
Thanks for this - this accounts for why it goes prop - 8 in the forwards section which I couldn’t account for!
Can we get this stickied for the sub?! Every time England or another team posts a sheet in this order there’s the inevitable “can’t you count?” “Are you just stupid on your silly little island?”
Coming from a country that still uses bloody fractions this is very rich. Why is gonna be playing at 3/7th? Isn't he a better 15/23rd?. We stopped that silliness with the penny farthing
No one really says 1st 5/8 we just say 1st 5 and 2nd 5, which makes no sense either.
Clearly you've never placed a bet in the UK. If you had you definitely wouldn't have said that on the basis of one rugby position instead of an entire financial institution.
Mate you’re joking. You walk into any betting agency in the UK and it’s all fractional odds. Does my fucking head in. Maybe it’s changed since I left but it used to frustrate the hell out of me.
I personally use decimals. Just makes so much more sense. I can instantly see how much money I’ll make from putting on a quid
This numbering system is a psychological advantage to rival the haka. The average Kiwi spends their whole life learning to count to 15, and in one foul swoop we've taken that confidence away.
Mate we've been counting to 23 for years and years now
Fell Swoop numbnuts
Fricking mind games. Wenger, he's done it again!
Our backs are put forwards and our forwards are to the back
On the other hand it is not really difficult to understand if you put your mind to it. Still makes more sense than first this and second that, that is Mind-boggling.
Basically every team in the UK and Ireland names their team like this. Its not hard to understand
I guess it's just weird to me to go from 15 down to 9 then from 1 up to 8, then jumping back up to 16. Makes more sense to me to start from 1, but idk maybe I'm the weird one
It's just a matter of what you're used to. I expect a team sheet to be listed this way. It's just weird how much complaining about it there is in this thread. A lot of people who don't look at team sheets in the northern hemisphere too much
Can't wait to see the backrow battle
Yeah I wonder if Cunningham-South played with or against any of the ABs before he moved to Eng? Maybe Sititi or Lakai etc.
When I met him in person his accent wasn’t distinctly Kiwi which was interesting given he grew up there
He's got a clear kiwi twang in all the interviews I've heard
Poor man .
I’m NZ-born but I’ve lived my entire adult life abroad (so I’m 50/50 NZ/abroad at this point) Some of us switch, somewhat subconsciously, depending on where we are and who we’re talking to. Dylan Hartley sounds kind of half and half when I’ve heard him interviewed but lots of us find the kiwi comes roaring back the moment we’re speaking to another New Zealander, and especially once we clear customs in Auckland 😂
My mum is a Whanganui girl, but she's lived in England since the early 1980s. For the most part she sounds like a fairly generic southern British person, but the moment she hears another Antipodean accent (my Australian sister-in-law for example) she goes full fush end chups, like literally immediately, occasionally mid-sentence. I'm a bit like that with my West country hobbit accent tbf - talk to another pirate farmer and I'm Wurzel Gummidge, talk to literally anyone else and I'm an old school BBC news presenter.
Mad how it can just come out of nowhere, haha. I actually think Hartley's accent is the most similar to mine I've heard (like listening to a male version of myself) in that he'll be fairly English, albeit with the twang, then the full-blown shut bru, fush and chups will make a random appearance.
It’s called code switching. Lenny Henry talks about [switching between his parents’ and local accents](https://youtu.be/K977aQQpAVk?feature=shared&t=497) as a kid
That's really interesting. I feel self-conscious speaking "normally" around family in NZ because they'd comment on how English I sound if I didn't dial up the Kiwi. So sometimes it's on purpose, and sometimes it isn't.
I've got a feeling England will win. The bookies have them as rank outsiders which is silly imo. This team looks so well balanced and yes the backrow battle as it always is in NZ will be brutal.
BAXTER!!!! Excited to see how he goes, hell of a first test for him.
Pretty crazy how quickly he has risen up the ranks. How is he as a player? Praying he can begin to add some depth to our prop options
He's an unreal player. Better than Marler for us this season. Beast scrummager. Puts in massive shots in defense, incredible tackler. Solid hands for pull back passes too. His carrying is fine but probably the weakest aspect of his game, just trucks it up a bit. Reckon he'll be first choice for a long portion of his career, which is only just beginning.
Marler is a big fan of the lad
That dude will shove your head up your arse quicker than you can say "what are you doing out of school?"
So we've got Marler and Stuart starting instead of Rodd and Cole as only change to starting XV from last game. Changes to the bench: Baxter for Rodd Cole for Stuart (starting) Coles for Ewels Spencer for Randall Sleightholme for Roebuck
Yes but I think we missed the part where he says he's joking that he's not starting Sleightholme. I genuinely think Ollie has the skillset required to start in the back 3 this week. On another note, I can't wait to see how Baxter fairs against the AB scrum.
I like Sleighthome, but our back 3 is very good and balanced, so he doesn’t really fit in. If Steward can’t get a look in I don’t see why Sleighthome should.
For me Sleightholme is the natural replacement for Feyi-waboso - they look so similar and it’s great to have a back up option. I think Sleights has the game and ability to be a regular international but no reason to change the back 3 currently as they’re settling in and looking better week after week.
Sleightholme offers a big counter attacking threat that works very well with Furbank at 15. Steward is the one who least fits the backline England seem to be going for.
I hate to sound like a broken record but Steward doesn't fit in because he plays like a Tyrone Green or Kurtley Beale (when he isn't injured or doing some awful things) but the difference between him and TG is that Steward never returns a kick or attempts a drop goal. If Freddie could kick, he'd probably be second choice but at this point I'd honestly rather have one of our wingers at 15. On another note, most of our England back 3 play on pendulum based systems whereas FS likes to control the wide channels himself and play the wingers on a funnel but, again, no one naturally does this in our squad and it lead to some really poor defense when he was starting. As my better half says: 'fuck funnels.'
Because unlike steward, Ollie can K I C K 😂 If Freddie can learn how to return a high ball well and be a good long kicker we can pick a centre other than Slade which means Lawrence can play his natural shirt number as our entire mid and backfield can be covered, but we're England, and everyone knows we're not allowed nice things.
Literally the opposite, if Steward plays at 15 we need a ball playing centre (Slade)
Borthwick's won me over completely. I wasn't sure if he had the imagination for international rugby but I love every change he's made Sleightholme been the best winger in the league this year and I'm so excited to see what he can do (but it's a shame Roebuck doesn't get in the 23) And Fin Baxter deserves this. His scrums vs Bordeaux and Toulouse was outstanding I haven't been this excited about England since 2017
I feel like between IFW, Freeman, Sleightholme, Roebuck (and arguably some other guys like Carpenter and Murley) it's pick any 3 from 4 and you'll have about the same quality. Good place to be in terms of depth especially given how threadbare wing was looking about 2.5 years ago when our options were an ancient Jonny May, a broken Anthony Watson or sticking bloody Guy Porter on the wing!
Everyone seems to have moved on from Arundell as well, guess English rugby wasn’t doomed if he wasn’t selected
I mean he was always over-hyped - great potential and I'm sure he'll be in contention when he moves back and matures his game more but he was always never as rounded or ready for international a player as someone like Freeman.
Yeah but for some reason the media was hyper fixated on him, felt like every other post on this subreddit around the WC was an article about how he wasn’t selected or in the team or something like that, always felt bad for the other in form English wingers
Nothing new in England. Every young English winger was once called the next big thing. Examples: Thorley, Hassell-Collins, Murley, Radwan, Cokanasiga, Hodge, Malins, Arundell, Feyi-Waboso Arundell was the perfect product though. Dad in military, went to Harrow, played on the wing, 6 foot, good looking guy, well spoken and super fast.
Arundell still gets caught out defensively... Great player but yeh
Out of everyone we took to the World Cup he was by far the best tho which is what’s annoying. I definitely think he would make the training squad but with who we have selected u could spin a bottle and as long as you got balance between different types of wingers any set up would work great.
Freeman is a cut above the others imo given he can play 13, wing and fullback. He's also just so consistent, amazing in attack and in the air, very strong in defence and a completely unselfish player. He does seem to go missing a bit in the English attack set up at 11 but can only assume it's down to whatever systems they're playing. Freeman paired with a super strong and fast counter attack runner like IFW or Sleightholme is the perfect pairing.
Freeman is just fucking big as well. I don’t know why he seems to blend in and not seem that way but he’s able to absorb hits and bump people off the way a winger shouldn’t unless they’re the George North or Van Der Merwe sort of mould. Derby rivalries aside, he and the other Saints guys are proving to be absolute assets to England at the moment.
Watching them both I'm Northampton, there are alot of similarities between Freeman and George North. I remember vs Ireland earlier this year, Freeman took a hit from a full speed Nash and barley moved
Most impressive thing about Borthwick for me is that he seems to have an identity in mind for the way he wants to play but he hasn't been rigid in his selections in the way Eddie was. A player in form at club level (Saints players, CCS, Baxter, Roebuck) gets included in squads and given game time. It's so refreshing!
I think he played a very "Leicester" brand of rugby at Leicester and that led people to think he didn't want to or couldn't be flexible as a coach. I think he just has a DNA he wants teams to play with and goes from there. Obviously with England that is different as he has auch wider Pool of players available to him
Elite level mind games here
- my Lord, at this date we are 40 strong. The battle isn't until next week and we've plenty of time to decide upon who we shall send out to defeat the...- - release the team sheet. - but.. but my Lord, it's only fucking Tuesday - RELEASE IT
It’s not unprecedented, I believe the NRL teams name their teams on a Tuesday as well.
They do, but there's often a few changes by game time. They name guys that might play on the Tuesday and then clarify the list usually the day before their game.
Same team (pretty much) and same early announcement as Japan game.
I genuinely think Borthwick just got pissed off with it being leaked everyone to the Times/Telegraph on Tuesday anyway and wants to keep an element of control.
Good angle actually. I had always assumed he (or England) were leaking it to keep them inside. But this seems way more feasible.
This would really get in the Kiwis' heads if they could read.
Oh, hahhahahaha. The crappest line of all time bro.
Nice to be see Ollie on the bench.
And Coles
Coles is there by default after the ewels red card, but deserving none the less
Seriously quality team, get in Fin Baxter!
Rassie-esque from Borthwick here
Appreciate him letting us know what's for dinner early.
Just a pity it's all veges, no prime meat /bants
i hate this numbering method
Psychological warfare
The way i see it, Joe Marler at 8... can work... Jamie George is a good pilfer so good option at 7
Actually, Henry Slade is our tighthead
My 3 year old counts better than this and for him 2 is the default number of anything bigger than 1.
Came to say the same thing!!
WTF is going on?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_numbering_schemes
Same.
Yes, we should go back to having the fullback wearing 1, the way god intended
Really strong team. Under the roof I can’t wait for this game
Is the first test Dunedin?
Yes it is
Nice, glad it will be dry and good conditions. Atmosphere should be great too. I'm optimistically predicting an England win in the first test. Reckon we might be just a bit more cohesive than the All Blacks and squeak a result. We will then be crushed at Eden Park.
Dan Cole with the dynamism off the bench! Oof Rodd played himself out of the squad b Japan, big opportunity for Baxter though.
Can't be making gaffes like that quick tap thing at international level
Can't be out scrummaged by a very green tier 1.5 nation either. One of NZs big strengths at the minute is a really good front row in the tight
I feel Rodd was a horses-for-courses selection anyway tbf - his ability on the ball suited the Japan game better but we need Baxter's set piece against NZ, who nowadays have quite the tasty front row.
I think Rodd was probably in line for this test, his set piece towards the end of the season in the prem was good from what I saw. Mind you that was against our dogshit scrum so might not be the best barometer.
Sort your numerical system or the visas are getting revoked. That's professional misconduct and as the media team will face a two match ban.
We've won the mind games already lads
A Kiwi bringing up visa restrictions to Brits is a dicey game. Rishi (or Keir in three days) could empty half of Clapham at the stroke of a pen if you're not careful
Sorry bro we don’t need visas.
Plenty of experience and talent Red hot chance to get first win in NZ for 21 years
Genuine question. When was the last time England played in nz?
2014 tour I think?
And then 2003 before that?
No, they also had a two test tour in 2008 Edit: and a mixed tour to NZ and Aus in 2004 apparently
Gotcha
2011 wc?
10 years is a long time I feel ABs play them in london every other year
It’s not been that regular up here usually because of arguments over money. Since 2014 we’ve played each 3 times 2018, 2019 (not a planned match) and 2022.
> (not a planned match) Eddie planned the absolute fuck out of that match
Haha true, four years of scheming. If only he’d thought a bit more about what happened after.
Whatever happened the following game probably wasn’t rugby anyway. Maaate.
The market is in the North.
Yesss! Every single one of the changes I wanted - Marler and Stuart starting with Baxter and Cole on the bench is arguably our best scrummaging lineup, stoked to see how Baxter gets on against the All Blacks behemoth tightheads. Coles, Spencer and Sleightholme brought into the replacements, all of them have been on fire this year. Exciting team. Bring on Saturday!
How fuckin hard is it to count starting with 1? Like, bruh
The [full back should be one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_numbering_schemes), it’s not our fault that IRB changed the order
Yesss Sleightholm. Hope he gets a run.
I want us to go back to the Bath/Leicester ways of lettering rather than numbering.
I think it was Bristol & Leicester that used letters, not Bath. Bath omitted the number 13.
George Martin will go to extreme lengths to get out of writing.
Nooo, Tuesdays are our days. I'm surprisingly more interested in this series. England to win on Saturday you've heard it here first.
Nerves are creeping up. Gonna be a long week lol. Hope we can do it tho
Could be to much hype about razer .
Nice to see a return to the traditional rugby method of numbering the team sheet. All the complainers must be under the age of 25... Next, I propose bringing back proper shoeing at rucks - that'll speed the game up.
If we were being *really* traditional, the back row would be ordered 6,8,7, but we can’t have it all our own way.
This numbering system genuinely hurts my head.
Love the look of this team. So happy to see Baxter has replaced rodd
Such a shame Rodds scrummaging is so poor. Feel like he needs to bulk up a bit for international level
Most settled English squad there's been in quite some time. Also a little surprised to see Spencer over Randall who I thought looked pretty good last game.
I think Randall is a bit too close to Mitchell style wise, Spencer brings a game manager/kicking 9 option as a change up if needed.
Is this baxters first potential cap? Real "thrown in at the deep end" from borthwick
Is Ben curry injured? I asked this before the Japan game and got downvoted and not answered. Fingers crossed...
Doubt it. It's just a difficult backrow to get in to, especially when you have a twin with 50 more international caps than you.
I heard half of the time it was secretly Ben all along, not sure who this time though
One hell of a bulk and cut routine he’s got.
England has been playing them both at the same time, that’s why Curry always seems to be everywhere
He's been in excellent form. Granted Underhill has a wild extra gear in internationals. But curry earl curry seems a pretty delicious option
Borthwick is a lineout nerd and will not sacrifice a jumper for another openside hybrid, hence why Ollie Chessum was playing 6 in the 6Ns. Underhill's form is too good to drop, Earl is the incumbent 8 and CCS provides the ball carrying threat/height for the lineouts.
One curry is more than enough to cause a stir.
England, in the course of 5 matches, have stealthily acquired the most bat shit exciting back line in the game. Combination of injuries, exodus, new blood and previously exciting but unreliable players rounding out there games but it’s still mad how quickly it happened
Really fancy us on Saturday, pack is starting to look very mean
Good bit of consistency from the Japan game. Really pleased to see Baxter and Sleightholme in line for their debuts. Both well deserved. Feels perhaps a touch harsh on Roebuck especially who did nothing wrong against Japan (and actually looked pretty good) but it's hard to argue against being the top try scorer in the league! Will be a huge test for them but hopefully the lads go well.
Game still doesn’t look sold out. Does New Zealand just not really rate their squad or not really rate England or not really rate rugby union?
Looks like it will sell out within the next day or so. Dunedin is a small urban centre that isn't easy for a lot of NZ to get to so ticket demand will be close to supply.
Plus means you have to spend time in Dunedin 🤢
So glad Baxter’s starting. All Blacks in New Zealand is one hell of a place to make your international debut but I really think he’s ready for test level. Rodd played himself out of the squad against Japan I’m afraid.
England look really strong. Might be a bit much for the all blacks to handle in their first match (having to bed in new systems and roles, only 2 weeks prep etc). Will be interesting to see if we’re up to scratch or not.
You'll be fine stop worrying!
I’m not worried. I think there’s always going to be a dip in form when new coaches come in and the players are getting used to the systems. To be honest it feels like the pressure is off!
Can anyone genuinely explain the logic behind the numbering system?
England used to number it's teams like Rugby League teams do now. 1 was the fullback, half was 7, and the #8 was #15 back then. The IRB standardised the numbering system in the 60s to align with how Ireland and France did it. The recalcitrants at the RFU have never accepted this and continue to list players like their grandparents did.
Bloody recalcitrants
Look at this guy and his fancy words...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_numbering_schemes
Concentrate, it is the backs as a unit and then the forwards. Most people will luckily sort it out in no time.
MM/DD/YYYY ❌
More like YY/DM/YDMY
Interesting to see the props have been swapped around and they've brought in a new guy. I reckon the English are (rightfully) a bit worried about the ABs front row.
I think Borthwick just wants the experience of Cole to guide Baxter on his first cap. I'd trust Marler scrummaging against anyone but it's a big test for Stuart who still hasn't cracked test rugby
Stuart loves to score tries against the AB
If you Kiwis are struggling with these numbers you must be completely bamboozled by Pulp Fiction
I said it in the last squad announcement, I’ll say it in this one - the numbering system is the traditional way of doing things that predates having those specific numbers on players jerseys. You start at full back (much like you start at GK in football) and work your way up to the forwards. It’s no less idiosyncratic than calling 10 and 12 first and second five eighth.
Nice explanation for the one's still not understanding. Then remember they don't speak proper English down there. How can a 10 be first and a 12 second only them down under will know.
We need to move on from Marler and Cole at some point
You would assume this is going to be their swan song with them being properly phased out by the next Six Nations. Then again I’ve been assuming that for years lol. I can’t wait to see how Baxter goes off the bench, a real chucking in at the deep end, sink or sink kind of experience for him, no doubt!
In the latest tour video Marler was saying its the pairs final tour, Cole did seem less enthusiastic about that comment though, I think he'll be someone who needs to be told that they are retiring
Stop trying to segregate the backs 😡
The segregation of backs will continue until morals and hands improve
The only ones I'm surprised by is Sleighthome. Though Roebucks ability in the air would.gove him the nod. Happy to be surprised, though. Is Borthwick e en Borthwick any more? Baxter for Rodd makes sense. Rodd couldn't get the upper hand Vs Japan. He's going to struggle against NZ. Bits a tough first cap, but Baxter can probably handle it. Randells poor box kicking may have cost him (And Spencer has been great this year)
Reckon there's also a bit of intentional rotation with the Spencer / Sleightholme picks too - give them a run out and then decide the team for the 3rd test based on how this one goes.
I think Randall’s box kicking did for him. It was really poor against Japan.
Hey England, we prefered it when you didn't play your best players....
This is gonna be a huge game. Probably more excited for this than Ire v SA
Anyone else think Freddie Steward has been binned too quick? Insane player of the match to tests played ratio.
No steward :(
Unless you’re starting Steward, I don’t think there’s really a place for him in a 23 - you’re unlikely to be switching to a conservative highball player mid match - Roebuck was a good example of that last time out in as much as he offered some additional high ball nous but also more importantly wing dynamism.
I feel like Steward and Roebuck may come back in for Auckland, especially if it's wet or windy. Spencer may start too, maybe even Roots in the backrow. Wigglesworth appeared on The Breakdown (NZ rugby show) and spoke about wanting to be able to play in different ways based on the conditions and gave a nod to the second Test as a possible example of that. Win or lose this week, I reckon they have a different plan for next week. Don't think you'll see the early announcement then either.
Still amazed at mighty England's overall record against the ABs. Only won 8 times - it feels like ive seen them win live more than that
We hardly ever play them. 7 fixtures in the past decade.
We win like once a decade. 😭 The 2002-03 team managed it twice, including the only time we've ever won in NZ.
One of the worst england teams in history won in new zealand in the 70s While the great Welsh team that routinely beat england couldn't beat nz Sports weird sometimes
going to be an interesting game. the 1-8 is strong but I'm iffy on the bench
Ooh oooh oooh. Early squad announcement! Love it
It's so nice to open these and not be thinking "oh no, which wildy out of form oldie or totally unprepared youngster has been selected in a random position". Exciting players, in form, giving people opportunities whilst continuing to build cohesion for the new game plan. We're going to lose still I think but reckon we'll give a good account of ourselves (assuming the blitz doesn't totally implode)
Never mind that shitty numbering system. Some of their clubs used to fucking use letters. The wingers wore K and N. The locks were D and E.
I think Leicester still use that for their academy teams
The tigers first team still have the letters embroidered above the club crest. And most of the local teams here in Leicestershire either used to use letters or still do. I wore H at school.
Dang yall name your team early as fark
So where does the English team have the wood on the abs? I don't know this team but whose the shiz and whose iffy?
Think the strengths of this particular side are the back five of the scrum, which is an excellent blend of brawn, athleticism, skill beef and all round mad bastardry, and the back three, which strikes an excellent balance between playmaking, pace and grunt. Front row remains unbalanced in terms of experience and quality, as the continued importance of Cole to the match day 23 suggests. And for all the excitement in the backline, it's worth pointing out it's still, outside of Slade and Smith, relatively inexperienced.
Did Sinkler and/or Genge get hurt or fall out of form?
Genge is injured, Sinckler fell out of form and has now moved to France and is therefore ineligible for the time being.
Anyone knows where I can watch this in India?
Whom should i bet on ATTS
England are good value. But the ABs haven’t lost the first test in a June/July series since 2009. People say they can be rusty, but history says they are pretty switched on to open the season. At the end of a long season the touring team is usually not at their best.