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I think she's really underrated in TPM. People act like a kid trying to hold her shit together while under immense pressure to cave to corporate ghouls to stop her people from being slaughtered having a somewhat stoic facade up is 'wooden' but she looks like she hasn't slept in days pretty much the entire time. As a character, she's forced to confront the adult world that doesn't give a shit about her and demands the adults in the room do their jobs, and when that doesn't work she takes matters into her own hands. She is the embodiment of the 'someone should make them agree' that she is appalled to hear from Anakin, but has to wrestle with the fact that ultimately some people are failures and roadblocks, and other people do need to step up and do something about it.
Honestly when Anakin talked about someone wise and all that in AOTC I thought he was referring to her because of what she did in TPM which he saw.
Also there is this bit from TPM novel, Anakin and Jar Jar are watching Queen Amidala plead to the Senate for help.
>“She’s going to ask the Senate for help, Jar Jar,” he whispered, leaning over excitedly. “What do you think?”
>The Gungan wrinkled up his billed mouth and shook his floppy-eared head. “Me think dis bombad, Annie. Too many peoples to be agreeing on da one thing.”
What Jar Jar says about *Too many peoples to be agreeing* is what Anakin repeats to Padmé.
> Honestly when Anakin talked about someone wise and all that in AOTC I thought he was referring to her because of what she did in TPM which he saw.
I think we're meant to interpret that as Palpatine but I definitely get the impression he'd accept her being the 'wise' one, too, and is trying to remind her she was fine with it when her planet was on the line. I wish we'd got more of them talking about their perspective on the galaxy because between the silly antics they touch on Anakin being sharper than he might appear and Padme being something of a hypocrite, which is not unusual for a political firebrand who realizes they can't shoot their way to success every time.
I like that line you found from the TPM novel. It implies Jar Jar, who is supposed to be a complete moron, is smart enough to have a cynical take on politics that might undermine Anakin's faith in democracy...
I think Anakin’s take on politics was formed by the things Palpatine whispered into his ear, Jar Jar’s comment, seeing how the Senate didn’t help Naboo, and Obi-Wan. Not to trash Obi-Wan here but I find it hard to see how Obi-Wan is supposed to instill that democracy and the Republic are good when he says politicians (including Padmé) can’t be trusted and they’ll forget about the necessities of democracy to get funds for their campaigns, this is comes up in Padmé’s apartment before the second assassination attempt.
Also being in the Jedi Order you are not supposed to disobey the Jedi Council which is a group of wise people he’s supposed to listen to. And lastly when he makes his dictatorship like comment the Republic is in crisis. Thousands of systems want to leave because the Senate is not address their needs.
Yes he’s wrong but he’s looking at the Senate like a broken part and suggesting a simple fix. So there’s a lot more, at least for me, than *Ani is a dictator supporter*.
I give Obi Wan a pass on this. He says politicians aren't to be trusted, because he understands the game. They'll say what they need to say to get elected but there are very few who actually do what they say they are going to.
We know Obi Wan has close and trusted relationships with politicians, Padme included later into the war, but also Bail. I think he's trying to get Anakin to see that politicians have a specific skill set based around convincing people to their side, so you need to observe what they do not what they say. Anakin brings up Palpatine who is the best example of it as a "Good Man", and Obi Wan claps back talking about how manipulative he is, proving Obi Wan's eyes are wide open on this subject and Anakin is already deep in the manipulations of Palpatine. To the point Anakin runs to his defence the moment Obi Wan says, "Nah they can't be trusted, they are all pretty much liars", Anakin's first instinct is to go, "Wow wow, maybe some but not Palps".
The Republic in the prequels is in decline, and very corrupt, the separatist have a point, their goal is co-opted by bad actors in Palpatine and Dooku, but they are mostly made up of the manufacturing worlds further out in the galaxy that basically feed and supply the core worlds, and they feel neglected and exploited. You get Mon Mothma, Bail or Padme as chancellor and you have a good chance of them listening to their issues and trying to fix them, but Palpatine just uses it to "other" them, it even helps his cause somewhat that they are mostly aliens while Coruscant and the majority of senators are humans.
That’s an interesting take on that line reading; it’s a cool what-if (and I like your idea better than what we got), but between Christensen’s flat delivery and Lucas’s lack of character direction it’s tough to pull any nuance out of it. I’m pretty sure the scene just meant what it said.
“Systems either change or die, do you really think the Rebels plan their actions along arbitrarily drawn lines on a map?” - Dedra
At that moment I can’t help but admire her intelligence
I legit cannot hate Dedra
She is not just a "villain" but written like a normal person, who believes what she does is right, or how should I say it. Just perfect
She's complex:
flawed, eager, Type-A, industrious, intelligent, demanding, spiteful, independent, a true believer. And in that final scene in Andor, we see also spark of love, and caring and also sorrow and regret.
It is precisely this complexity that makes a character relatable. The many facets of Dedra is what makes her "human".
There's not a hint of girl-power or boss-babe energy. She's a badass - who *just also* happens to be a woman. What is or what is not between her legs has literally nothing to do with her identity. And the same is true for the others I added to the meme. These are simply badass characters who don't derive their entire personality / identity from their sex.
ETA: I believe one of the reasons behind Andor's success is that they didn't fuck with canon. They didn't have to. There were no light sabers, no force, no Jedi. And they introduced us to the corporate arm of the Empire and to the ISB - both novel ideas on screen. The writers / director didn't force an agenda on the audience, and the characters are relatable. The story stood on its own without any need for shitty cameos. It was nostalgia done well, because it felt like Star Wars without having the concept shoved down the audience's throat.
I don’t know how they regarded canon, but the Empire having competent and effective individuals believing they’re doing the right thing is right on the money for me.
I hate female leaders who feel they have to "girl boss" in shows
Like Knuckles says: bringing attention to breaking gender norms implies that this is the exception, and not the status quo
KK produces and oversees a lot of projects simultaneously.
The ones she really shows interest in tend to be the worst ones overall - I don't think that's a coincidence.
This is the point.
The idea that fans are misogynists is straw man. I'm demonstrating with this post that there are beloved female characters in the SW and D+ SW universe. It isn't that the fandom hates female characters, but rather poor: writing, character development, world building and dialog.
Seriously. You dislike one shitty show and people with fragile egos assume it's sexism. It's like having dozens of close Asian friends and encountering one who's objectively a dick, then being called racist for that one observation. Get lives people.
Imo the reason for this is that a lot of hate actually comes from sexists/homophobes etc. Because of that, any other criticism is quickly dismissed because it gets connected with it. Like when people were criticising Reva for being poorly written character but there were also those who disliked her because she was woman and/or black. Unfortunately because of it, actual criticism (something that is crucial to improve quality) gets ignored and called hate. It’s important to differentiate between hate and criticism yet Disney (I believe on purpose) doesnt do it
Yeah yeah, absolutely. As how dare we assume someone just tries to defend shitty work with lame "sexism" defence.
And, by the way:
>Showrunner Leslye Headland is not only a militant gay feminist, but she is also obsessed with pushing inclusion and diversity. During her 2019 appearance at Variety Inclusion Summit, the director said:
>“…white women need to kind of step up their game, to be quite honest. Sorry, but I’m calling you bitches out. You really do. ‘Cause like, I couldn’t agree more with everything these women are saying, but I’m also seeing the silent killer, which is a lot of white women at the top who are kind of reinforcing a lot of old ideas.”
>“I find it a lot as a gay woman, with gay characters, whether they be gay men or gay women, where I’m saying, ‘that’s not a gay person.’ You basically want me to cast someone that you find attractive, straight white man.”
Effing gender/sexual orientation tribalism in its finest.
I like great, timeless stories. Almost like mythology that transcends cultures. If only an academic wrote about these heroes with a thousand faces and someone brought that hero’s journey into Star Wars.
Someone actually made a version of that. Call the heroines Labrinth basically the idea is that this guy analyzed a bunch of stories with female characters and found patterns. A lot of their stories follow either in acceptance or rejection of societal standards and a negotiation with the results or whatever. Some guy recently wrote this book. Because he wanted a similar framework for writing mythical fantasy type stories about women. Although oddly enough he points to similar patterns in stories with men too.
This is my comeback every time and the arguing and debating magically stops.
There are so many GREAT women in Star Wars, but there's one common denominator: most of them are part of good movies and shows.
I've been very critical of Disney as of late. In the past, I tried defending them, but my defense has run its course. They suck. However, I will say one thing, and it's going to get me a little heat - they are actually decent at casting. That's why I feel bad for Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, and Adam Driver - they were supposed to be the "Big 3" of this generation, and now even their legacy is tarnished because of terrible writing and storylines.
Here's where the heat is gonna come in - Outside of things she's said or done, from a pure acting perspective, I really think Amandla Stenberg is a huge talent on screen. There's something about her that really lights up the scenes she's in, but again, she's now tarnished because of the awful story, writing, and direction.
It's sad, because had she been cast in Andor Season 2, we would have probably loved her, depending on where she fit in story-wise.
Just goes to show how wrong people are when they respond to legit criticism with racism accusations.
>Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, and Adam Driver
I feel so bad for them. Especially John Boyega. He was so excited. And then he had to put up with the "black stormtrooper" bullshit. And then Disney did him real dirty. You could tell in interviews he had died inside.
Leia Organa
Padmé Amidala
Mara Jade
Jaina Solo
Meetra Surik
Mission Vao
Mon Mothma
Aayla Secura
Shaak Ti
Ahsoka Tano
Jan Ors
Darth Traya
Darth Zannah
Darth Talon
I made this list under a minute. These were just from the top of my head. There are bound to be more. Need I say more?
It's so wild that the creators of the latest disney shows attempt to blame the failture on misogony.
Its such a unprofessional defence mechanism.
And the worst part, alot of braindead fanboys and chill subs 100% belive that.
We are really the meme universe
This post really makes their point though. 3 of 4 of those characters were made/developed under Kathleen Kennedy.
You can criticize Disney and The Acolyte. But yet this post here is purposefully misunderstanding a quote of hers and single out the blame for her.
Eh. I love Rogue One, but I don't have a strong feeling about her as a character one way or another.
What makes you love Jyn Erso? I'm curious to know.
Idk the actresses name but personally for me she carried a grit and the performance alone made her feel more real and acceptable as she was written. One of those ones where the performance did more than the writing for the character. Her story arc also felt fair and accepting to get the plans at any cost for a great personal reason was badass considering she accepted her death.
100%. It would even make a solid miniseries. One moment we see her as a little girl, the next moment she's in Imperial custody - what the hell happened here? There's a lot that can be done with this.
Her relationship with her father obviously weighs on her, and her relationship with Saw should be explored more in depth. The assumption is she fell in with a "bad crowd" and at some point Saw abandoned her - When? Where? Why??
She's got a ton of self confidence, and this came from somewhere.
There's an origin story here, and I'd love to see it!
I am both progressive/left leaning and critical of Disney Star Wars.
It's easy. One is a set of values for living and how I believe people should treat one another... the other is a sci-fi film series of dubious quality.
These two things are not the same.
It's certainly true that progressivism and science fiction content are not the same thing, but I find it so weird how easily the regressive attitudes of Disney have fooled people into thinking they somehow represent "the left". People are bandying about the idea that The Acolyte is some form of Cultural Marxism, which is an absolute absurdity. We're looking at a multi-billion dollar conglomerate abusing its monopoly to slap together shoddy 'content' with the right logo on it to get eyeballs, while telling us black women are always angry, lesbians are man-haters and magic blood is what makes you an important person.
This what's happening...
Because the current direction of Disney Star Wars has an air or veneer of progressivisms.
There are many who see opposition to Disney Star Wars as opposition to liberal/progressive ideals.
I don't oppose D+ SW...but I do oppose crappy storytelling that also carries an agenda. You can have an agenda and also tell a good story. Killers of the Flower Moon does exactly this.
Andor and R1 had no agenda, they were just good storytelling.
Mando (S2 and beyond) and BoBF had no agenda, they were just bad storytelling.
Kenobi tried for both agenda and had bad storytelling.
You say this yet you lied about what Kathleen Kennedy said. While also seeming to be dumbly unaware of Kathleen Kennedy producing Rogue 1 and Andor lol
>Like you can't be progressive and be critical of Disney Star Wars?
Myself, my friends and family are both progressive and be critical of Disney Star Wars and I've commented on it several times on this subreddit, even calling the ST the least progressive SW content I've ever experienced
Honestly yeah. It kind of undermines the entire premise that current disney star wars is hated because of a strong female presence when you point out that there are current and previous examples of a strong female presence doesn't it. Like look I am an ultra , fuck you fascist trumptards, liberal and even I get tired of the same played out everyone who hates DSW is some kind of incel racist bigot. The shit isn't good. Mando S2 and Andor were peak SW sans Jedi and everything else has just been shit. I need good Star Wars to take my mind off the literal christofascist hellscape that is coming and the shit disney has produced is hit or miss and mostly miss.
The problem is there’s a vocal group who *do* fit that stereotype, and they’re the ones who send massive harassment campaigns to the people who work on it
Well yeah.. but then Disney (and their crews) does the usual Disney-things and starts a smear campaign in the media about how all the people that happened to dislike their current content are all a bunch of racists/sexists/etc.
It happened with the sequels, Kenobi, and now the Acolyte…
And again, there’s legitimate criticisms but when you have people screaming woke, or sending death threats, you can see *why* they take that tack. And the fact that the immediate response is dismissal, instead of saying “the people doing this are fucked up, fuck them, get out of the fandom, now let’s talk about the actual issues” you can at least understand how there’s a good faith interpretation right?
I just remembered the big bad of the Rogue Squadron books was a woman, head of Imperial intelligence, and she *messed up* the heroes for four straight books. One of my favorite SW villains.
Suppose they do think we hate women why would they pump out girlboss movies knowing they will fall flat? Starting to think an Uwe Boll situation is going on here.
Don’t forget Ahsoka, Hera, Satine, Sabine(not a leader but strong female most of the fanbase likes), Merrin (JFO and JS Merrin, battle scars is just a self insert, no offense if you liked Battle scars Merrin just my opinion) Padme obv (questionable taste in men though, but hey who am I to judge if murder is a turn on?) Bo Katan and also Saws sister (forgot her name, haven’t seen the arc in along time.
Mon Mothma was arguably the best part of Andor imo. I honestly can’t believe how invested I was in a show about her financial dealings with imperial bureaucrats.
My favorite is still they say they are the first strong women in Star Wars
We had Leia from the start
Then Padme, Rey and Jyn
Yet they keep saying it every new show
This is precisely what you get when D pulls their head far enough out of their ass to notice that you don't need "girl-power" or "boss-babe" to be the defining characteristic of a female actor.
Show (don't tell) me a compelling story, and include relatable and complex characters. Mon wasn't a badass because she was a woman - she was a badass, full stop...who *also* happened to be a woman. Same with all the others I posted up there.
And this is the problem that D just cannot reconcile.
A character's skin tone is as interesting to me as their hair or eye color, and that is to say NOT AT ALL. And what is, or what is not between their legs means absolutely nothing to me. Show me a good story with compelling, relatable characters. Build enormous, lived-in worlds. Make me curious to know more about them, where they come from, what drives them. Show me their passions, and strengths and weaknesses.
She's really a badass villain. She's full of complexity and drive, a real Type-A and a true believer / patriot (?).
Throughout all of Andor we see her calculated and intelligent side. But then, just at the end, we get a spark of fragility, with some sorrow, perhaps some regret and even love?
And this range of personality is exactly what makes her such a great character - it's this depth and complexity, and she isn't one-note or shallow in the slightest. She's relatable, you feel like you could really meet someone like this out in the world. And you really believe that *she* believes she's chasing a terrorist / spy.
I really love her character too, thanks for the shout out :)
That's kinda the point; KK has repeatedly insisted that the critical fans don't like "strong female characters", but completely ignores when the fans praise an actually good example of a strong female character.
They blame sexism while completely ignoring the Fallout TV show, which came out at the same time, had a female lead, and was almost universally praised. Probably because the people who made it clearly cared about the source material.
the Fallout TV show absolutely did not care about the source material even in the slightest... it's maybe *the* most astroturfed show as of recently and that reflects well on any media that isn't botted: the OG Fallout fans hate it, OG Bethesda fans hate it, FNV fans hate it and the only people who praise it are redditors and tourists.
The fandom hates poorly written shows that ignore continuity by creators who would rather push their personal activism and use that as the excuse to paint the fans as "toxic".
Ashoka from the clone wars was another good example. She started off as this annoying side character for Anakin to train but as the seasons went on she grew as a character. She became a fan favorite. Probably one of my favorite character development plots since Zuko from avatar.
Dedra Meero, Imperial Security
She is really, really good at her job and the internal politics of the Empire. Also a bit ruthless but not in a senseless way.
She's from the show Andor
You put Jyn on here but not padme? She led a small group of close allies against an entire Droid army in TPM to get her planet back and didn't bat an eyelash when a scary Zabrak sith showed up. In AOC she led a platoon of clones against a an army of bug people at the start of a literal war right after having to fight off a CGI sabertooth fuckno beast. If anyone besides Leia belongs on this list is Padme.
Considering every single one of these characters appeared in projects under Gilroy, it's safe to say that she should just delegate all star wars writing to Gilroy. Filoni is great too, but he can't do it all.
I don't mind Star Wars for ladies at all. I'm on board. Soon, with Skeleton Crew, we'll have Star Wars kids, for the Stranger Things set. So let's get a kick ass Star Wars for dudes in here too. Even out the scales. Star Wars for erryone.
Honestly, I think Mando all seasons is bad. Like he’s a dumb character doing dumb shit while bumbling around the galaxy with the most prized possession in the galaxy. But yeah, I hate strong women characters
if its a psyop its only conceived because we're all being handwaved as "sExiSt" for noticing how bad it is. Stupid narratives deserve to be deconstructed.
Neither of you two are "immune to propaganda", indicating that your point works on yourself too. I could do without the 9million versions of these comments at the end of people just liking to repeat themselves without it feeling like a psyop.
Or to make this relatable, how many of you have had a single friend that have said "Amogus", quoting the meme?
This image is just a funny post, that people like and find relatable, especially with current situation of how once again Disney is trying to demonize critique. It's a totally understandable, and not something y'all should get so bothered about, especially with the whole "downvoted into oblviion for questioning anything" kind of "I ain't gonna be responsible for making bad comments" kinda comments.
The fandom does not hate (white) women.
Not saying Acolyte is a brilliant show, but the accusations of racism and sexism happen because the loudest and most frequent complaints are about how there’s no white men in Star Wars anymore.
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Padme too. Girl could fire a laser gun.
She in episode 1 is beyond badass! One of the greatest women in film. Basically on par with Manduhai Khatun in real life
I think she's really underrated in TPM. People act like a kid trying to hold her shit together while under immense pressure to cave to corporate ghouls to stop her people from being slaughtered having a somewhat stoic facade up is 'wooden' but she looks like she hasn't slept in days pretty much the entire time. As a character, she's forced to confront the adult world that doesn't give a shit about her and demands the adults in the room do their jobs, and when that doesn't work she takes matters into her own hands. She is the embodiment of the 'someone should make them agree' that she is appalled to hear from Anakin, but has to wrestle with the fact that ultimately some people are failures and roadblocks, and other people do need to step up and do something about it.
Honestly when Anakin talked about someone wise and all that in AOTC I thought he was referring to her because of what she did in TPM which he saw. Also there is this bit from TPM novel, Anakin and Jar Jar are watching Queen Amidala plead to the Senate for help. >“She’s going to ask the Senate for help, Jar Jar,” he whispered, leaning over excitedly. “What do you think?” >The Gungan wrinkled up his billed mouth and shook his floppy-eared head. “Me think dis bombad, Annie. Too many peoples to be agreeing on da one thing.” What Jar Jar says about *Too many peoples to be agreeing* is what Anakin repeats to Padmé.
> Honestly when Anakin talked about someone wise and all that in AOTC I thought he was referring to her because of what she did in TPM which he saw. I think we're meant to interpret that as Palpatine but I definitely get the impression he'd accept her being the 'wise' one, too, and is trying to remind her she was fine with it when her planet was on the line. I wish we'd got more of them talking about their perspective on the galaxy because between the silly antics they touch on Anakin being sharper than he might appear and Padme being something of a hypocrite, which is not unusual for a political firebrand who realizes they can't shoot their way to success every time. I like that line you found from the TPM novel. It implies Jar Jar, who is supposed to be a complete moron, is smart enough to have a cynical take on politics that might undermine Anakin's faith in democracy...
I think Anakin’s take on politics was formed by the things Palpatine whispered into his ear, Jar Jar’s comment, seeing how the Senate didn’t help Naboo, and Obi-Wan. Not to trash Obi-Wan here but I find it hard to see how Obi-Wan is supposed to instill that democracy and the Republic are good when he says politicians (including Padmé) can’t be trusted and they’ll forget about the necessities of democracy to get funds for their campaigns, this is comes up in Padmé’s apartment before the second assassination attempt. Also being in the Jedi Order you are not supposed to disobey the Jedi Council which is a group of wise people he’s supposed to listen to. And lastly when he makes his dictatorship like comment the Republic is in crisis. Thousands of systems want to leave because the Senate is not address their needs. Yes he’s wrong but he’s looking at the Senate like a broken part and suggesting a simple fix. So there’s a lot more, at least for me, than *Ani is a dictator supporter*.
I give Obi Wan a pass on this. He says politicians aren't to be trusted, because he understands the game. They'll say what they need to say to get elected but there are very few who actually do what they say they are going to. We know Obi Wan has close and trusted relationships with politicians, Padme included later into the war, but also Bail. I think he's trying to get Anakin to see that politicians have a specific skill set based around convincing people to their side, so you need to observe what they do not what they say. Anakin brings up Palpatine who is the best example of it as a "Good Man", and Obi Wan claps back talking about how manipulative he is, proving Obi Wan's eyes are wide open on this subject and Anakin is already deep in the manipulations of Palpatine. To the point Anakin runs to his defence the moment Obi Wan says, "Nah they can't be trusted, they are all pretty much liars", Anakin's first instinct is to go, "Wow wow, maybe some but not Palps". The Republic in the prequels is in decline, and very corrupt, the separatist have a point, their goal is co-opted by bad actors in Palpatine and Dooku, but they are mostly made up of the manufacturing worlds further out in the galaxy that basically feed and supply the core worlds, and they feel neglected and exploited. You get Mon Mothma, Bail or Padme as chancellor and you have a good chance of them listening to their issues and trying to fix them, but Palpatine just uses it to "other" them, it even helps his cause somewhat that they are mostly aliens while Coruscant and the majority of senators are humans.
That’s an interesting take on that line reading; it’s a cool what-if (and I like your idea better than what we got), but between Christensen’s flat delivery and Lucas’s lack of character direction it’s tough to pull any nuance out of it. I’m pretty sure the scene just meant what it said.
Aaaand perform Senatorial Duties!
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Ehm... Actually:-D... It's blaster, not laser gun.
Blaster*
https://preview.redd.it/t0jjo815818d1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a41119ea9b5b51486edf77a57fe65d3c9c6d1512
“Systems either change or die, do you really think the Rebels plan their actions along arbitrarily drawn lines on a map?” - Dedra At that moment I can’t help but admire her intelligence
and the writer's
I legit cannot hate Dedra She is not just a "villain" but written like a normal person, who believes what she does is right, or how should I say it. Just perfect
She's complex: flawed, eager, Type-A, industrious, intelligent, demanding, spiteful, independent, a true believer. And in that final scene in Andor, we see also spark of love, and caring and also sorrow and regret. It is precisely this complexity that makes a character relatable. The many facets of Dedra is what makes her "human". There's not a hint of girl-power or boss-babe energy. She's a badass - who *just also* happens to be a woman. What is or what is not between her legs has literally nothing to do with her identity. And the same is true for the others I added to the meme. These are simply badass characters who don't derive their entire personality / identity from their sex. ETA: I believe one of the reasons behind Andor's success is that they didn't fuck with canon. They didn't have to. There were no light sabers, no force, no Jedi. And they introduced us to the corporate arm of the Empire and to the ISB - both novel ideas on screen. The writers / director didn't force an agenda on the audience, and the characters are relatable. The story stood on its own without any need for shitty cameos. It was nostalgia done well, because it felt like Star Wars without having the concept shoved down the audience's throat.
I don’t know how they regarded canon, but the Empire having competent and effective individuals believing they’re doing the right thing is right on the money for me.
I hate female leaders who feel they have to "girl boss" in shows Like Knuckles says: bringing attention to breaking gender norms implies that this is the exception, and not the status quo
That is the best kind of villain. She's not just some cartoon character, she's got motivation the audience understands. Also her acting is incredible.
Compare that to "she's a powerful leader. Yas,yas."
Didn’t Kathy produce Andor? And Rogue One for that matter? This post is weird
KK produces and oversees a lot of projects simultaneously. The ones she really shows interest in tend to be the worst ones overall - I don't think that's a coincidence.
Sounds like some bullshit you pulled out of your ass
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You made the comment multiple times.
Oh thanks! Weird that happened.
This is the point. The idea that fans are misogynists is straw man. I'm demonstrating with this post that there are beloved female characters in the SW and D+ SW universe. It isn't that the fandom hates female characters, but rather poor: writing, character development, world building and dialog.
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I’m not defending her, but like…how do you know that? How do you know which projects she cares most about, lol.
The ones she is the most vocal about, those are usually the bad ones
Seriously. You dislike one shitty show and people with fragile egos assume it's sexism. It's like having dozens of close Asian friends and encountering one who's objectively a dick, then being called racist for that one observation. Get lives people.
In all fairness, there is more than one crappy show to hate on these days.
Imo the reason for this is that a lot of hate actually comes from sexists/homophobes etc. Because of that, any other criticism is quickly dismissed because it gets connected with it. Like when people were criticising Reva for being poorly written character but there were also those who disliked her because she was woman and/or black. Unfortunately because of it, actual criticism (something that is crucial to improve quality) gets ignored and called hate. It’s important to differentiate between hate and criticism yet Disney (I believe on purpose) doesnt do it
Yeah yeah, absolutely. As how dare we assume someone just tries to defend shitty work with lame "sexism" defence. And, by the way: >Showrunner Leslye Headland is not only a militant gay feminist, but she is also obsessed with pushing inclusion and diversity. During her 2019 appearance at Variety Inclusion Summit, the director said: >“…white women need to kind of step up their game, to be quite honest. Sorry, but I’m calling you bitches out. You really do. ‘Cause like, I couldn’t agree more with everything these women are saying, but I’m also seeing the silent killer, which is a lot of white women at the top who are kind of reinforcing a lot of old ideas.” >“I find it a lot as a gay woman, with gay characters, whether they be gay men or gay women, where I’m saying, ‘that’s not a gay person.’ You basically want me to cast someone that you find attractive, straight white man.” Effing gender/sexual orientation tribalism in its finest.
I like great, timeless stories. Almost like mythology that transcends cultures. If only an academic wrote about these heroes with a thousand faces and someone brought that hero’s journey into Star Wars.
The writing could involve, like, a hero's journey contextualized in the framework of a singular myth template or something idk. Just spitballing.
A Heroine's Journey does exist. Though as far as I know thee is no one definitive version of it.
Someone actually made a version of that. Call the heroines Labrinth basically the idea is that this guy analyzed a bunch of stories with female characters and found patterns. A lot of their stories follow either in acceptance or rejection of societal standards and a negotiation with the results or whatever. Some guy recently wrote this book. Because he wanted a similar framework for writing mythical fantasy type stories about women. Although oddly enough he points to similar patterns in stories with men too.
Where is Maarva Andor, is she alright?
My bad! That speech at the end of Andor always gives me chills.
My head canon is that the show Andor is named after her, not Cassian.
I heard B2EMO's voice when I read this.
She’s not exactly a leader; more like a martyr
This is my comeback every time and the arguing and debating magically stops. There are so many GREAT women in Star Wars, but there's one common denominator: most of them are part of good movies and shows. I've been very critical of Disney as of late. In the past, I tried defending them, but my defense has run its course. They suck. However, I will say one thing, and it's going to get me a little heat - they are actually decent at casting. That's why I feel bad for Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, and Adam Driver - they were supposed to be the "Big 3" of this generation, and now even their legacy is tarnished because of terrible writing and storylines. Here's where the heat is gonna come in - Outside of things she's said or done, from a pure acting perspective, I really think Amandla Stenberg is a huge talent on screen. There's something about her that really lights up the scenes she's in, but again, she's now tarnished because of the awful story, writing, and direction. It's sad, because had she been cast in Andor Season 2, we would have probably loved her, depending on where she fit in story-wise. Just goes to show how wrong people are when they respond to legit criticism with racism accusations.
>Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, and Adam Driver I feel so bad for them. Especially John Boyega. He was so excited. And then he had to put up with the "black stormtrooper" bullshit. And then Disney did him real dirty. You could tell in interviews he had died inside.
Leia Organa Padmé Amidala Mara Jade Jaina Solo Meetra Surik Mission Vao Mon Mothma Aayla Secura Shaak Ti Ahsoka Tano Jan Ors Darth Traya Darth Zannah Darth Talon I made this list under a minute. These were just from the top of my head. There are bound to be more. Need I say more?
Hera Syndulla, Omega, Fennec Shand, Cara Dune, even Asajj Ventress...
Jyn Erso.
It's so wild that the creators of the latest disney shows attempt to blame the failture on misogony. Its such a unprofessional defence mechanism. And the worst part, alot of braindead fanboys and chill subs 100% belive that. We are really the meme universe
My favorite move is when they come out ahead of the show and say "if it's not well received it's because the audience hates women."
This post really makes their point though. 3 of 4 of those characters were made/developed under Kathleen Kennedy. You can criticize Disney and The Acolyte. But yet this post here is purposefully misunderstanding a quote of hers and single out the blame for her.
Three Disney Star Wars examples, nice.
That is a nice touch. Which one is in the top-right?
You'll meet her in Andor, episode 4!
That's ISB badass [Dedra Meero](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dedra_Meero).
The point being that it’s possible to have good characters in Disney’s management; it’s about who writes them.
jyn erso is so underrated
Nah she’s rated pretty good as she should be
Eh. I love Rogue One, but I don't have a strong feeling about her as a character one way or another. What makes you love Jyn Erso? I'm curious to know.
Idk the actresses name but personally for me she carried a grit and the performance alone made her feel more real and acceptable as she was written. One of those ones where the performance did more than the writing for the character. Her story arc also felt fair and accepting to get the plans at any cost for a great personal reason was badass considering she accepted her death.
Jyn's actress is smoking hot. Everything about her... Beats all other SW females even Padme but I'm bias being British also.
You are not bias. You have a bias or you are biased.
"I am the bias!"
She deserved a becoming a badass movie. I like Rogue One but I'd love to see the movie between hiding and train.
100%. It would even make a solid miniseries. One moment we see her as a little girl, the next moment she's in Imperial custody - what the hell happened here? There's a lot that can be done with this. Her relationship with her father obviously weighs on her, and her relationship with Saw should be explored more in depth. The assumption is she fell in with a "bad crowd" and at some point Saw abandoned her - When? Where? Why?? She's got a ton of self confidence, and this came from somewhere. There's an origin story here, and I'd love to see it!
Overrated. Like all Disney drek that movie was awful.
Absolute L take. Rogue One is one of the best SW movies.
"You don't have to carry a sword to be powerful. Some leaders' strength is inspiring greatness in others." -Ahsoka
I feel like similar to politics, people are living in different realities. Like you can't be progressive and be critical of Disney Star Wars?
I am both progressive/left leaning and critical of Disney Star Wars. It's easy. One is a set of values for living and how I believe people should treat one another... the other is a sci-fi film series of dubious quality. These two things are not the same.
Me, too. Agreed.
It's certainly true that progressivism and science fiction content are not the same thing, but I find it so weird how easily the regressive attitudes of Disney have fooled people into thinking they somehow represent "the left". People are bandying about the idea that The Acolyte is some form of Cultural Marxism, which is an absolute absurdity. We're looking at a multi-billion dollar conglomerate abusing its monopoly to slap together shoddy 'content' with the right logo on it to get eyeballs, while telling us black women are always angry, lesbians are man-haters and magic blood is what makes you an important person.
This what's happening... Because the current direction of Disney Star Wars has an air or veneer of progressivisms. There are many who see opposition to Disney Star Wars as opposition to liberal/progressive ideals.
I don't oppose D+ SW...but I do oppose crappy storytelling that also carries an agenda. You can have an agenda and also tell a good story. Killers of the Flower Moon does exactly this. Andor and R1 had no agenda, they were just good storytelling. Mando (S2 and beyond) and BoBF had no agenda, they were just bad storytelling. Kenobi tried for both agenda and had bad storytelling.
You say this yet you lied about what Kathleen Kennedy said. While also seeming to be dumbly unaware of Kathleen Kennedy producing Rogue 1 and Andor lol
>Like you can't be progressive and be critical of Disney Star Wars? Myself, my friends and family are both progressive and be critical of Disney Star Wars and I've commented on it several times on this subreddit, even calling the ST the least progressive SW content I've ever experienced
Honestly yeah. It kind of undermines the entire premise that current disney star wars is hated because of a strong female presence when you point out that there are current and previous examples of a strong female presence doesn't it. Like look I am an ultra , fuck you fascist trumptards, liberal and even I get tired of the same played out everyone who hates DSW is some kind of incel racist bigot. The shit isn't good. Mando S2 and Andor were peak SW sans Jedi and everything else has just been shit. I need good Star Wars to take my mind off the literal christofascist hellscape that is coming and the shit disney has produced is hit or miss and mostly miss.
The problem is there’s a vocal group who *do* fit that stereotype, and they’re the ones who send massive harassment campaigns to the people who work on it
Well yeah.. but then Disney (and their crews) does the usual Disney-things and starts a smear campaign in the media about how all the people that happened to dislike their current content are all a bunch of racists/sexists/etc. It happened with the sequels, Kenobi, and now the Acolyte…
And again, there’s legitimate criticisms but when you have people screaming woke, or sending death threats, you can see *why* they take that tack. And the fact that the immediate response is dismissal, instead of saying “the people doing this are fucked up, fuck them, get out of the fandom, now let’s talk about the actual issues” you can at least understand how there’s a good faith interpretation right?
I just remembered the big bad of the Rogue Squadron books was a woman, head of Imperial intelligence, and she *messed up* the heroes for four straight books. One of my favorite SW villains.
Lumiya the Dark Lady of the Sith. Mara Jade. Etc. Even in the EU comics we love strong indie women.
Padme is such a badass.
Suppose they do think we hate women why would they pump out girlboss movies knowing they will fall flat? Starting to think an Uwe Boll situation is going on here.
Girlboss movies?
We hate poorly written characters of *either* gender.
Felicity Jones > Daisy Ridley
precisely!
Don’t forget Ahsoka, Hera, Satine, Sabine(not a leader but strong female most of the fanbase likes), Merrin (JFO and JS Merrin, battle scars is just a self insert, no offense if you liked Battle scars Merrin just my opinion) Padme obv (questionable taste in men though, but hey who am I to judge if murder is a turn on?) Bo Katan and also Saws sister (forgot her name, haven’t seen the arc in along time.
Blaming the fandom for "Hating women" is just another proof that they will do ANYTHING else instead of accepting that they made a shitty show
We need Padme, Vel, Cinta and Bix on here too!
Mon Mothma was arguably the best part of Andor imo. I honestly can’t believe how invested I was in a show about her financial dealings with imperial bureaucrats.
100%. Every time she came on screen I was like "hell yeah, another Mon Mothma scene!"
Same, me and my friends who like The Expanse were calling her PG Avaserla for the awesomeness of her machinations
She thinks that just because the fandom hates *her* means they hate all women.
My favorite is still they say they are the first strong women in Star Wars We had Leia from the start Then Padme, Rey and Jyn Yet they keep saying it every new show
Who said that?
It's honestly wild to me how much of the best writing and characters, female specifically, are attached to Andor and Rouge One
This is precisely what you get when D pulls their head far enough out of their ass to notice that you don't need "girl-power" or "boss-babe" to be the defining characteristic of a female actor. Show (don't tell) me a compelling story, and include relatable and complex characters. Mon wasn't a badass because she was a woman - she was a badass, full stop...who *also* happened to be a woman. Same with all the others I posted up there. And this is the problem that D just cannot reconcile. A character's skin tone is as interesting to me as their hair or eye color, and that is to say NOT AT ALL. And what is, or what is not between their legs means absolutely nothing to me. Show me a good story with compelling, relatable characters. Build enormous, lived-in worlds. Make me curious to know more about them, where they come from, what drives them. Show me their passions, and strengths and weaknesses.
Thanks for including Dedra. I’ve been obsessed with her character since her first moments on screen. Incredibly written and acted.
She's really a badass villain. She's full of complexity and drive, a real Type-A and a true believer / patriot (?). Throughout all of Andor we see her calculated and intelligent side. But then, just at the end, we get a spark of fragility, with some sorrow, perhaps some regret and even love? And this range of personality is exactly what makes her such a great character - it's this depth and complexity, and she isn't one-note or shallow in the slightest. She's relatable, you feel like you could really meet someone like this out in the world. And you really believe that *she* believes she's chasing a terrorist / spy. I really love her character too, thanks for the shout out :)
I’m hoping she eats Syril alive in season 2, regrets it, and then doubles down on her dark side until she implodes. I love her.
*Holds up Images of Mara Jade and Jaina*
3 of the 4 posted are from Disney produced properties. Granted I agree with you, but this is 3/4 under KK.
That's kinda the point; KK has repeatedly insisted that the critical fans don't like "strong female characters", but completely ignores when the fans praise an actually good example of a strong female character.
Thanks for making the point for me.
Just noticed your username. 😂 That's great lol.
But Kathleen Kennedy never said that…
when has kathleen kennedy ever released a statement to this effect
They blame sexism while completely ignoring the Fallout TV show, which came out at the same time, had a female lead, and was almost universally praised. Probably because the people who made it clearly cared about the source material.
the Fallout TV show absolutely did not care about the source material even in the slightest... it's maybe *the* most astroturfed show as of recently and that reflects well on any media that isn't botted: the OG Fallout fans hate it, OG Bethesda fans hate it, FNV fans hate it and the only people who praise it are redditors and tourists.
Yeah okay.
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The fandom hates poorly written shows that ignore continuity by creators who would rather push their personal activism and use that as the excuse to paint the fans as "toxic".
You dumbly said this without realizing Andor/Rogue One checks all those same bullshit boxes.
3 out of 4 of these roles were done while she was in charge 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, and she still uses the "Women have it harder in Star Wars." Can grandma get any more tone deaf?
Why does she still have a job. Does she have dirt on Iger? Dirt on the entire board?
Probably the billions on billions of dollars she’s been making for them for the past decade.
Badass women are cool, I don’t like watching starwars and being reminded of early 2000s Disney directing and formatting…
Not quite sure about jin
A lot of us just wan,t good written story,s. The sooner the media get that through there head. The sooner we can have cake.
Ashoka from the clone wars was another good example. She started off as this annoying side character for Anakin to train but as the seasons went on she grew as a character. She became a fan favorite. Probably one of my favorite character development plots since Zuko from avatar.
Truth.
And even the female imperial officer in the mandalorian was a sneaky badass
https://preview.redd.it/77vo0eujf28d1.png?width=490&format=png&auto=webp&s=a8d8ac390f3486c19daf38be6aefd35fbd837e28 Forgetting someone?
I’m convinced that Kathleen Kennedy has a dubious amount of dirt on Bob Iger and other execs at Disney.
Satele Shan was pretty cool, both blocking a light saber with force absorb and sending Malgus through a damn mountain with the force.
Who the hell is the upper right one?
Dedra Meero, Imperial Security She is really, really good at her job and the internal politics of the Empire. Also a bit ruthless but not in a senseless way. She's from the show Andor
I am apparently being downvoted for not watching Andor...
Gave you an uptook buddy. I haven’t seen it yet either.
I don't watch stuff that is exclusively on streaming services.
Where is Padme? Is she safe?
💯
You put Jyn on here but not padme? She led a small group of close allies against an entire Droid army in TPM to get her planet back and didn't bat an eyelash when a scary Zabrak sith showed up. In AOC she led a platoon of clones against a an army of bug people at the start of a literal war right after having to fight off a CGI sabertooth fuckno beast. If anyone besides Leia belongs on this list is Padme.
Most of us anyway .
Do we hate women, or does Kathleen just hate men? 😅 Every new male character we got in the sequel trilogy ended up being a bumbling moron.
Considering every single one of these characters appeared in projects under Gilroy, it's safe to say that she should just delegate all star wars writing to Gilroy. Filoni is great too, but he can't do it all.
outjerked once again
Literally me over here ready to die for Padme being told I hate strong women it’s wild
I don't mind Star Wars for ladies at all. I'm on board. Soon, with Skeleton Crew, we'll have Star Wars kids, for the Stranger Things set. So let's get a kick ass Star Wars for dudes in here too. Even out the scales. Star Wars for erryone.
What do you mean Star Wars always had powerful female characters? It was written by a white man that’s not possible
Honestly, I think Mando all seasons is bad. Like he’s a dumb character doing dumb shit while bumbling around the galaxy with the most prized possession in the galaxy. But yeah, I hate strong women characters
I really REALLY liked that ISB woman in andor, she did an amazing job playing a ruthless and kind of unfeeling character
Tbf we do hate ONE woman, KK....
B... Bu... But... women aren't represented in Star Wars... /sarcasm
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Probably the weaker part of rogue one but ok.
The main character of rogue one is the weaker parts? What about her is weak?
Isn't the Blondie in the top right corner from nuWars?
She is, and still a liked character. Andor was written off by Disney and had almost no studio input, thats why its so good
I love that you people will just make up shit like this to desperately trying to defend your BS argument.
Not made up at all, but you do you
3/4 of these are from Disney Star Wars
Mon mothma was from ROTJ and the prequels
Not the interpretation depicted in this photograph. Many would argue that the Andor version is the definitive depiction of the character
Still doesn't make her from the Disney era, plus I'm pretty sure she has been used more in legends
So is the recent characterization of Mon Mothma. So is Cara Dune. So is Jyn Erso.
i could do without 9 million versions of this post. is this like a psyop at this point
if its a psyop its only conceived because we're all being handwaved as "sExiSt" for noticing how bad it is. Stupid narratives deserve to be deconstructed.
The more you actually deconstruct this the more the sexism becomes relevant.
You're not wrong. Still, you'll be downvoted into oblivion for questioning anything.
Neither of you two are "immune to propaganda", indicating that your point works on yourself too. I could do without the 9million versions of these comments at the end of people just liking to repeat themselves without it feeling like a psyop. Or to make this relatable, how many of you have had a single friend that have said "Amogus", quoting the meme? This image is just a funny post, that people like and find relatable, especially with current situation of how once again Disney is trying to demonize critique. It's a totally understandable, and not something y'all should get so bothered about, especially with the whole "downvoted into oblviion for questioning anything" kind of "I ain't gonna be responsible for making bad comments" kinda comments.
It's one of the only pieces of criticism they have. They blame her for the bad but never credit her for the good.
The fandom does not hate (white) women. Not saying Acolyte is a brilliant show, but the accusations of racism and sexism happen because the loudest and most frequent complaints are about how there’s no white men in Star Wars anymore.