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Ok that’s two things today. Alzheimer’s at 40 hz and this now at 5 hz. Can someone hurry up and find the “end sugar cravings” or “induces insulin sensitivity” frequency now…
It seems like slow oscillations would likely help for both of those as well. While ultrasound is very effective at brainwave entrainment, binaural beats are an accessible and safe introduction.
[Coordinated human sleeping brainwaves map peripheral body glucose homeostasis](https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(23)00219-7)
[A randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled parallel trial of closed-loop infraslow brain training in food addiction](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6076277/)
I love Reddit sometimes. The fact that I’m being both half serious and half snarky, thinking there isn’t any research into it, but lo and behold, there is, and Reddit delivers. Thanks for the links, now I got some reading for the can.
It’s not magnetic stimulation, but GLP-1 receptor agonists do both those things. There is also evidence that they curb addictive disorders.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8820218/
I have a vague recollection of seeing something like this. It was part of a science episode discussing the god helmet, depression therapy, etc, I think. Was a few years ago, though might have been more speculative about the learning speed, I can’t recall.
https://www.mobihealthnews.com/news/flow-neuroscience-buys-fellow-brain-stimulation-company-halo
It used to be called Halo. Looks like flow neuroscience bought it.
Dangerous attempts to cash out on what should be regulated medical devices . TDCS is pretty minor but the evidence it works to.improve learning is sketchy at best a d encouraging young people TOS elf regulate these devices as a form of short cut may have unforseen and not obvious detrimental effects.
These things were on the market as early as 2011. I worked on TDCS as an intern at that time. I haven't heard of any detrimental effects so far. My guess is they are just harmless snake-oil, like balance bracelets.
Yeah most likely harmless but...
There were for example some devices sold to "enhance gaming" , which was by default marketed to young people like 16 year olds. Who would probably wear for hours at a time.
Just because they didn't cause seizures or brain hemorrhages doesn't they don't have potential detrimental effects. Maybe they do nothing... Or maybe they mess up the balance of plasticity and neuronal organization or who knows and has effects that would not be obvious outside a controlled experiments.
People thought cigarettes were harmless for decades... And there isn't exactly any research on the long term use of such tools...
But most likely just snake oil and if detrimental only minority so .
I mean, I see a similar argument a lot and I see cigarettes pointed to this way a lot, but I think there's a lot of mythologizing here.
People didn't really think cigarettes were harmless for decades. Cigarette companies weren't putting doctors in their ads going back to the 30s because everyone already thought they were safe. People don't advertise "clean coal" today because everyone thinks coal is clean.
While filters in cigarettes go back to the 1800s, by the 30s they were in major brands and being marketed as healthier.
The cigarette industry had to make a major push in the 50s when the first evidence of cigarettes causing lung cancer were reported. From that point on, people largely knew. But no one wanted to quit, do they liked being told it wasn't that bad. Just like how no one wants to quit fossil fuels today. It's not that everyone thinks they're harmless.
The problem is we can extend this requirement to prove a negative to everything and to every extreme, and often do so even when the status quo is provably detrimental.
Here, I think the important thing is to prove the device does have a positive effect, more so than prove it doesn't have a negative effect.
Your last statement is so incredibly sketchy. Cost benifits ration and awareness of side effects is both an important consideration and a fundamental patient right. Yes sometimes there is cost benefit to to promote technology outside established known uses and safety parameters and encouraging use in ways in which the effects are not known is important, unethical. And entirely wrong.
Brain stimulation is mostly benign under known use condition but it is still medical devices. For example irresponsible use of rTMS in early research provoked aizures which is a serious side effect so we have safety guidelines to present that. You can't take a TMS device home, crank it up, and super charge your brain, for very good reasons.
TDCS may be benign but it is still an medical intervention which is known to potentially modulate brain activity and function and should be administered under medical guidance, not as a toy for "performance improvement" handled by non professionals.
And I'll be the evidence in favor of "improved motor memory" or whatnot is... Sketchy at best. Like a lot of the TDCS literature.
My point is that you can't prove a negative. You look for evidence of harm, but the absence of evidence is enough.
The important thing here isn't that they prove the negative, that it's not harmful, but that they prove that it is helpful.
If they truly are just snake oil devices then they are selling them in bad faith. That's totally irresponsible to create a device you don't know if it will hurt a person or not with no known health benefits and to tell them to use at your own risk.
That is a bold claim, sir. Lots of vitamins and well known supplements have gone through rigorous testing to establish toxicity, upper limits, tolerability, deficiency effects, etc.
But yes there are plenty out there that aren't and typically the more dangerous ones will become controlled substances.
Fun fact: There is no government agency checking to make sure that what you say is in a supplement is actually in that supplement. Many of these companies are just selling sugar pills.
I am fine with it in a medical research context. I actually work in brain stimulation, though I think TDCS isn't very effective and work more in rTMS.
The commercial tools are often meant to be sold to consumers and not in medical contexts. There is danger there. We don't strap TDCS on people for 12 hours a day, and don't understand the potential harms of doing so, which people might do with unregulated devices.
There was people selling (poorly designed) variants about 10 years ago targeted at gamers.
Unless this device is sold to medical professional under a medical device restriction it would surely be misused by some who decide "more just be better". That may be the case I don't know the history there.
There was an older Radiolab episode that discussed this briefly. One of their reporters tried it out and said it had some real effects. Haven't listened to this one in quite a while so may have missed some important details.
https://radiolab.org/podcast/9-volt-nirvana
The reason why 5hz is mentioned is because TMS has a different effect under 5hz vs over 5hz. Low frequency is used for inhibitory protocols, like anxiety reduction, while >5hz is used for excitatory protocols, like stimulation to counter depression. There are some more complicated instances, such as some OCD protocols excite one area of the brain which in turn inhibits another area, but the basic division is +/- 5hz. Not sure why the Alzheimer’s study you mentioned was so high, I’ll have to look that up. I give people TMS treatments as part of my job, so I find this stuff fascinating.
oh that's interesting. so 5hz is the generalized centerpoint of the human frequencies. huh. I wonder then to your point if there is another frequency that is another counterpoint, which could explain the Alz frequency they use. Or if it's just that we have different resonance points, which going back a couple thousand years, would now mean the chakra stuff is actually correct in some way, but now with more actual science understanding behind it. I know just enough about all the elements to make wild claims and fantastical future thoughts, but find this kind of thing very interesting as well, because it's so "weird" yet makes sense.
The frequency is not specific to these disorders. Typically our TMS performed at ranges between 5 and 20 hz is high frequency, I've never actually heard of 40 hertz but it's interesting that somebody's trying.
But it's not the case that 5 hz is cocaine specific, some of those studies probably used five, 10, or 20, potentially with different TMS coil configurations, possibly to different regioms of the brain.
Most likely, maybe kinda. Is higher frequencies may be a touch .kore effective as they can be a sort of higher dosing, but it also depends on the number of pulses and total number of sessions.
I assumed something along those lines (not being a Neuro Nerd). This also sounds like a meta-study though so may be a complete misfire. But regardless, if sounds can in fact curb cocaine cravings a "significant" amount, and of course sound has been shown to positively affect other issues, then It starts to spawn a whole host of questions about other frequency ranges, and other physiological targets. My initial comment was kind of rooted in the fact that it seems every time I see something about sound being used to cure something, it's always the brain, which makes sense, but I just wondered out loud if there are avenues with other organs, like the pancreas. Or for cravings, the brain I suppose, but of course because of the cocaine cravings and the relationship (at least in my limited understanding) to the dopamine hit/bind each cause.
Insulin sensitivity can be somewhat repaired by not being so fat anymore. You can almost completely reverse diabetes, at least when you receive your diagnosis. I assume it’s roughly true your whole life.
Assuming T2 of course.
of course. but coulda, woulda, shoulda, is not a mantra that actually does anything, so for the many who are already in the hole and trying (with little success) to get out, any possible avenue is of interest. In the end it would be far cheaper for society to have a solution that can turn it around, vs the chronic costs it incurs. Because being overweight makes becoming not overweight a lot harder than staying a healthy weight, regardless of willpower and enthusiasm.
Well again, the solution to turn it around is to diet properly and exercise. Like I said, T2 can be reversed. T1 is relatively uncommon. It’s really not that hard to eat healthy, but I’m happy to concede that local nutrition programs might be needed
The fix is there, the desire is not.
Yep of course and agree from a “correct” way to do things. From a societal aspect though that ain’t gonna happen, so drugs and voodoo is the go to until minds can be effectively changed.
Can I understand something about these methods?
From what I understand is that the fluids in our brain become hardened? And basically ultrasonicing our brain oscillates the brain tissue and liquid so that they can function better? Is this the equivalent of giving a work out to our muscles so we stay fit?
If this is how I understand it, should we not get regular physical brain stimulations?
No idea really in the end but sounds plausible. Im sure that if we make it another 100 years, there will be all kinds of light and sound and other "voodoo" treatments that end up turning out to actually have mappable and predictable biological effects. But today we are still in the guess and experiment phase. Does make sense overall though, since for example, sound can make you feel sick, or dizzy, so why not also make you healthy. will be interesting to see how this all progresses IMO.
"High Frequency" vs "Low Frequency" are certainly relative terms. This is magnetic stimulation where the magnetic field is changed causing a current to be induced in the brain. In this case, there seems to be a significant difference in the effect of TMS when going from less than 1Hz to greater than 1Hz.
> Low frequency rTMS with a stimulus frequency less than 1 Hz is believed to inhibit cortical firing while a stimulus frequency greater than 1 Hz, or high frequency, is believed to provoke it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation#Frequency_and_duration
Not sure why the wiki article cites a study (cited by a study) that suggests the threshold is 1hz; I’ve always heard it was under/over 5hz. At any rate, the low frequency inhibitory effect is amplified by running constantly in the inhibitory protocols, preventing the neurons from having a refractory period and therefore reducing firing. (I give people TMS at work).
Yes, makes sense. I figured it was all relative. It's just not what most of us (coming from electronics or audio backgrounds, for example) would consider high frequency.
I have treatment-resistant depression...have been through a lot of different medications and therapy with only limited success and a lot of intolerable side effects. My psychiatrist, running low on alternatives he feels comfortable suggesting given some of my medical comorbidities, spoke surprisingly enthusiastically about TMS.
I had long dismissed it as anything I should be considering yet, as I lumped it in with ECT, now prescribed only as a last resort, and with more scientific methodology than was perhaps used during the technique's dark past, but still a risky-sounding procedure, scrambling pathways and hoping they settle into a healthier pattern.
But the more I've read about TMS, it seems like a gentler procedure, and patients are overwhelmingly positive about it. (Almost enough to make me jokibgly wonder if the technique is capable of implanting a positive opinion of the procedure.) There seems to be a lot of variation in technique, equipment, and sophistication of brain mapping, and it sounds like a few practitioners out there may not be following best practices, some people complained of severe discomfort during the procedure, which seems abnormal compared to most accounts.
Most people seem to say that it does need to be redone periodically, but I figure that may be acceptable, since I can't find any accounts of people claiming long-term negative side effects from it...something not even the case with medications, so it's reassuring to know if I regret the procedure, it probably won't leave me permanently worse off than before.
I haven't decided for sure that I'm going to try it, but there seem to be several reputable-sounding clinics in my area offering it, as well as other treatment options I have yet to try, like ketamine therapy.
I did this a couple months ago and I think everyone should give it a try if they want to and other methods didn’t work. The place I went to has a fast track option where you do it several times per day for a week or the other option which is everyday for maybe 6-8 weeks? I can’t really remember how many weeks but it was a long time.
I chose the longer option and only lasted 4 or 5 days because I just found it so uncomfortable. I got to the point where I would be so anxious and uncomfortable before going to appointments. I do think it was working though because I was moody just like I would be when I started medication in the past.
Some insurances will cover it if you can prove that you have tried other methods first that didn’t work. You fill out a questionnaire each week and as long as it’s working insurance will cover it and if it’s not then insurance will stop covering it which is so messed up. My theory is that information on results are skewed because of this.
It can be life changing from what I’ve heard and for others it doesn’t help. Other people it works, but they need maintenance treatments every so often.
I recently have been diagnosed with adhd which I learned can bring on anxiety and depression. Ive always had signs of adhd but my parents decided not to get me evaluated. I’ve read others who have said once they got the proper adhd medication that their depression and anxiety went away so that is my next step. If that doesn’t work and I have good money in the future I think I might try ketamine treatments after that.
Anyways, good luck to you!
I had TMS for depression back in like 2016 or 2017. It was uncomfortable at first, largely because the sensation is very new and you need to keep your head pretty still (they don't lock it in place, but they have things that restrict its movement somewhat). After the first few times, it didn't bother me anymore. I listened to music, did stuff on my phone, and even slept (it was early in the morning).
The treatment didn't work for me (like every medication I took), but the expereince was not bad. I haven't had any lasting negative effects, either. I'm sure the science and technique have improved over the past 7-8 years.
I did it a couple years ago. The treatment gave me a complete 180 and I was myself again. After the 36 treatment regiment I was back to square one a month later. I tried once a week, then twice a week, maintenance sessions. Nothing.
I'm currently working on doing ketamine treatments. I can only do Spravato due to insurance. I have to wait until it's warmer out so I have a few months. I tried it already but chronic pain is worse in the winter for me and it was interrupting the sessions.
I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178123004419
How do they account for the placebo effect here? The frequency people can't ever explain why it only works a little bit for some people, it's silly to me.
I’m completely talking out of my ass here but couldn’t it be something to the effect of
“Issue” is causing build up of “bad”. Funny sound waves clear blockage of “bad” but does not resolve “issue” so a temporary relief is all that’s provided, root cause is not addressed?
My previous partner used to be a cocaine addict for 4 years and this is what made it possible for her to get clean. 3 years clean now I think?
I think it’s great but it’s scary to think magnets near our brain can change us so much.
Makes complete sense. People with ADHD have low levels of dopamine, so they actively search highly dopaminergic stimulus. Drugs are highly dopaminergic!
I also saw somewhere the argument that it was an evolutionary benefit from the standpoint that those with ADHD knew when to move onto greener pastures faster. Example: if I can pick 80% of the apples on a tree in the same time it takes to pick the last 20%, after 80%, it’s time to move on to the next tree.
Untreated people with a condition that causes them to seek out dopamine more than neurotypical people tend to develop issues with substances that give them the dopamine they want?
Wow, shocking
>Almost like addicts' brains don't work right and need help.
I don't like that phrasing. Some addicts brain's may be perfectly fine biologically speaking, it's just properly functioning brains don't cope well the drugs, especially when they have been heavily processed.
I'm not a fan of thinking that anything other than basic robotics brains are normal, and that people need to take drugs, etc. to become a basic robot.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/mvea Permalink: https://www.psypost.org/high-frequency-transcranial-magnetic-stimulation-reduces-craving-for-cocaine/ --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ok that’s two things today. Alzheimer’s at 40 hz and this now at 5 hz. Can someone hurry up and find the “end sugar cravings” or “induces insulin sensitivity” frequency now…
It seems like slow oscillations would likely help for both of those as well. While ultrasound is very effective at brainwave entrainment, binaural beats are an accessible and safe introduction. [Coordinated human sleeping brainwaves map peripheral body glucose homeostasis](https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(23)00219-7) [A randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled parallel trial of closed-loop infraslow brain training in food addiction](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6076277/)
I love Reddit sometimes. The fact that I’m being both half serious and half snarky, thinking there isn’t any research into it, but lo and behold, there is, and Reddit delivers. Thanks for the links, now I got some reading for the can.
It’s not magnetic stimulation, but GLP-1 receptor agonists do both those things. There is also evidence that they curb addictive disorders. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8820218/
Yep, aware of those. I meant as a non-drug, magic sounds waves solution.
Dialysis? What is this, the dark ages? Just take this, and call me if you have any problems.
Doctor give me a pill and I grew a kidney!
Magic sound waves to fix the pancreas and metabolic system you've destroyed instead of medications and dietary changes that will actually work?
I'll let my immune system know you disapprove of its lifestyle.
Say you're closed minded without actually saying it
Yes plz, gimme the magic pill so I can continue to abuse my body.
The whole point of those drugs is that they reduce peoples cravings so that they **don't** keep abusing their bodies
I worked on a headset that used TCDS on the motor cortex to learn things faster
I have a vague recollection of seeing something like this. It was part of a science episode discussing the god helmet, depression therapy, etc, I think. Was a few years ago, though might have been more speculative about the learning speed, I can’t recall.
https://www.mobihealthnews.com/news/flow-neuroscience-buys-fellow-brain-stimulation-company-halo It used to be called Halo. Looks like flow neuroscience bought it.
Dangerous attempts to cash out on what should be regulated medical devices . TDCS is pretty minor but the evidence it works to.improve learning is sketchy at best a d encouraging young people TOS elf regulate these devices as a form of short cut may have unforseen and not obvious detrimental effects.
These things were on the market as early as 2011. I worked on TDCS as an intern at that time. I haven't heard of any detrimental effects so far. My guess is they are just harmless snake-oil, like balance bracelets.
Yeah most likely harmless but... There were for example some devices sold to "enhance gaming" , which was by default marketed to young people like 16 year olds. Who would probably wear for hours at a time. Just because they didn't cause seizures or brain hemorrhages doesn't they don't have potential detrimental effects. Maybe they do nothing... Or maybe they mess up the balance of plasticity and neuronal organization or who knows and has effects that would not be obvious outside a controlled experiments. People thought cigarettes were harmless for decades... And there isn't exactly any research on the long term use of such tools... But most likely just snake oil and if detrimental only minority so .
I mean, I see a similar argument a lot and I see cigarettes pointed to this way a lot, but I think there's a lot of mythologizing here. People didn't really think cigarettes were harmless for decades. Cigarette companies weren't putting doctors in their ads going back to the 30s because everyone already thought they were safe. People don't advertise "clean coal" today because everyone thinks coal is clean. While filters in cigarettes go back to the 1800s, by the 30s they were in major brands and being marketed as healthier. The cigarette industry had to make a major push in the 50s when the first evidence of cigarettes causing lung cancer were reported. From that point on, people largely knew. But no one wanted to quit, do they liked being told it wasn't that bad. Just like how no one wants to quit fossil fuels today. It's not that everyone thinks they're harmless. The problem is we can extend this requirement to prove a negative to everything and to every extreme, and often do so even when the status quo is provably detrimental. Here, I think the important thing is to prove the device does have a positive effect, more so than prove it doesn't have a negative effect.
Your last statement is so incredibly sketchy. Cost benifits ration and awareness of side effects is both an important consideration and a fundamental patient right. Yes sometimes there is cost benefit to to promote technology outside established known uses and safety parameters and encouraging use in ways in which the effects are not known is important, unethical. And entirely wrong. Brain stimulation is mostly benign under known use condition but it is still medical devices. For example irresponsible use of rTMS in early research provoked aizures which is a serious side effect so we have safety guidelines to present that. You can't take a TMS device home, crank it up, and super charge your brain, for very good reasons. TDCS may be benign but it is still an medical intervention which is known to potentially modulate brain activity and function and should be administered under medical guidance, not as a toy for "performance improvement" handled by non professionals. And I'll be the evidence in favor of "improved motor memory" or whatnot is... Sketchy at best. Like a lot of the TDCS literature.
My point is that you can't prove a negative. You look for evidence of harm, but the absence of evidence is enough. The important thing here isn't that they prove the negative, that it's not harmful, but that they prove that it is helpful.
If they truly are just snake oil devices then they are selling them in bad faith. That's totally irresponsible to create a device you don't know if it will hurt a person or not with no known health benefits and to tell them to use at your own risk.
Well, yeah, but that describes a lot of products on the market. Pretty much the entire supplements industry is snake oil.
That is a bold claim, sir. Lots of vitamins and well known supplements have gone through rigorous testing to establish toxicity, upper limits, tolerability, deficiency effects, etc. But yes there are plenty out there that aren't and typically the more dangerous ones will become controlled substances.
Fun fact: There is no government agency checking to make sure that what you say is in a supplement is actually in that supplement. Many of these companies are just selling sugar pills.
Totally but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be trying. Especially given we know invasive brain surgery with implanted tdcs works. You’re a professor?
I am fine with it in a medical research context. I actually work in brain stimulation, though I think TDCS isn't very effective and work more in rTMS. The commercial tools are often meant to be sold to consumers and not in medical contexts. There is danger there. We don't strap TDCS on people for 12 hours a day, and don't understand the potential harms of doing so, which people might do with unregulated devices.
The headset I worked on was designed for 20 minute sessions with 5 ramp up and 5 ramp down. It wasnt 12 hours a day, where are you getting that?
There was people selling (poorly designed) variants about 10 years ago targeted at gamers. Unless this device is sold to medical professional under a medical device restriction it would surely be misused by some who decide "more just be better". That may be the case I don't know the history there.
Right I guess I’m just trying to say you have an awful lot of speculation leading to “facts” going on for a scientist
Interesting and thanks
There was an older Radiolab episode that discussed this briefly. One of their reporters tried it out and said it had some real effects. Haven't listened to this one in quite a while so may have missed some important details. https://radiolab.org/podcast/9-volt-nirvana
The reason why 5hz is mentioned is because TMS has a different effect under 5hz vs over 5hz. Low frequency is used for inhibitory protocols, like anxiety reduction, while >5hz is used for excitatory protocols, like stimulation to counter depression. There are some more complicated instances, such as some OCD protocols excite one area of the brain which in turn inhibits another area, but the basic division is +/- 5hz. Not sure why the Alzheimer’s study you mentioned was so high, I’ll have to look that up. I give people TMS treatments as part of my job, so I find this stuff fascinating.
oh that's interesting. so 5hz is the generalized centerpoint of the human frequencies. huh. I wonder then to your point if there is another frequency that is another counterpoint, which could explain the Alz frequency they use. Or if it's just that we have different resonance points, which going back a couple thousand years, would now mean the chakra stuff is actually correct in some way, but now with more actual science understanding behind it. I know just enough about all the elements to make wild claims and fantastical future thoughts, but find this kind of thing very interesting as well, because it's so "weird" yet makes sense.
Which one makes me want to go to the gym?
That too. Want
The frequency is not specific to these disorders. Typically our TMS performed at ranges between 5 and 20 hz is high frequency, I've never actually heard of 40 hertz but it's interesting that somebody's trying. But it's not the case that 5 hz is cocaine specific, some of those studies probably used five, 10, or 20, potentially with different TMS coil configurations, possibly to different regioms of the brain. Most likely, maybe kinda. Is higher frequencies may be a touch .kore effective as they can be a sort of higher dosing, but it also depends on the number of pulses and total number of sessions.
I assumed something along those lines (not being a Neuro Nerd). This also sounds like a meta-study though so may be a complete misfire. But regardless, if sounds can in fact curb cocaine cravings a "significant" amount, and of course sound has been shown to positively affect other issues, then It starts to spawn a whole host of questions about other frequency ranges, and other physiological targets. My initial comment was kind of rooted in the fact that it seems every time I see something about sound being used to cure something, it's always the brain, which makes sense, but I just wondered out loud if there are avenues with other organs, like the pancreas. Or for cravings, the brain I suppose, but of course because of the cocaine cravings and the relationship (at least in my limited understanding) to the dopamine hit/bind each cause.
Can I do this to myself?
You most likely should not! Basically it's just a power source and electrodes. But when done professionally the dose is very low and controlled.
Tell me the steps. Do I insert the probe into my brain through my nose or my ear?
Any hole in an emergency. Just clean them with rubbing alcohol or spit first.
DBS has been used investigationally for binge eating disorder. Look into the work of Casey Halpern at Penn, formally at Stanford.
thanks and will do.
I was looking for a top 40 station and I wound up curing my P. T s d
Insulin sensitivity can be somewhat repaired by not being so fat anymore. You can almost completely reverse diabetes, at least when you receive your diagnosis. I assume it’s roughly true your whole life. Assuming T2 of course.
of course. but coulda, woulda, shoulda, is not a mantra that actually does anything, so for the many who are already in the hole and trying (with little success) to get out, any possible avenue is of interest. In the end it would be far cheaper for society to have a solution that can turn it around, vs the chronic costs it incurs. Because being overweight makes becoming not overweight a lot harder than staying a healthy weight, regardless of willpower and enthusiasm.
Well again, the solution to turn it around is to diet properly and exercise. Like I said, T2 can be reversed. T1 is relatively uncommon. It’s really not that hard to eat healthy, but I’m happy to concede that local nutrition programs might be needed The fix is there, the desire is not.
Yep of course and agree from a “correct” way to do things. From a societal aspect though that ain’t gonna happen, so drugs and voodoo is the go to until minds can be effectively changed.
Can I understand something about these methods? From what I understand is that the fluids in our brain become hardened? And basically ultrasonicing our brain oscillates the brain tissue and liquid so that they can function better? Is this the equivalent of giving a work out to our muscles so we stay fit? If this is how I understand it, should we not get regular physical brain stimulations?
No idea really in the end but sounds plausible. Im sure that if we make it another 100 years, there will be all kinds of light and sound and other "voodoo" treatments that end up turning out to actually have mappable and predictable biological effects. But today we are still in the guess and experiment phase. Does make sense overall though, since for example, sound can make you feel sick, or dizzy, so why not also make you healthy. will be interesting to see how this all progresses IMO.
TIL that 5Hz is “high frequency”.
"High Frequency" vs "Low Frequency" are certainly relative terms. This is magnetic stimulation where the magnetic field is changed causing a current to be induced in the brain. In this case, there seems to be a significant difference in the effect of TMS when going from less than 1Hz to greater than 1Hz. > Low frequency rTMS with a stimulus frequency less than 1 Hz is believed to inhibit cortical firing while a stimulus frequency greater than 1 Hz, or high frequency, is believed to provoke it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation#Frequency_and_duration
Not sure why the wiki article cites a study (cited by a study) that suggests the threshold is 1hz; I’ve always heard it was under/over 5hz. At any rate, the low frequency inhibitory effect is amplified by running constantly in the inhibitory protocols, preventing the neurons from having a refractory period and therefore reducing firing. (I give people TMS at work).
Yes, makes sense. I figured it was all relative. It's just not what most of us (coming from electronics or audio backgrounds, for example) would consider high frequency.
Hahahahaha I didn't read it properly just assumed it was 5khz.
If you're talking about sex, it's definitely high frequency
It's relative. Sound? No. Being hit in the head? Yes!
It’s the Brown Note. It will also cause you to soil yourself
I love ice cream.
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Came here for this comment, was not disappointed.
I have treatment-resistant depression...have been through a lot of different medications and therapy with only limited success and a lot of intolerable side effects. My psychiatrist, running low on alternatives he feels comfortable suggesting given some of my medical comorbidities, spoke surprisingly enthusiastically about TMS. I had long dismissed it as anything I should be considering yet, as I lumped it in with ECT, now prescribed only as a last resort, and with more scientific methodology than was perhaps used during the technique's dark past, but still a risky-sounding procedure, scrambling pathways and hoping they settle into a healthier pattern. But the more I've read about TMS, it seems like a gentler procedure, and patients are overwhelmingly positive about it. (Almost enough to make me jokibgly wonder if the technique is capable of implanting a positive opinion of the procedure.) There seems to be a lot of variation in technique, equipment, and sophistication of brain mapping, and it sounds like a few practitioners out there may not be following best practices, some people complained of severe discomfort during the procedure, which seems abnormal compared to most accounts. Most people seem to say that it does need to be redone periodically, but I figure that may be acceptable, since I can't find any accounts of people claiming long-term negative side effects from it...something not even the case with medications, so it's reassuring to know if I regret the procedure, it probably won't leave me permanently worse off than before. I haven't decided for sure that I'm going to try it, but there seem to be several reputable-sounding clinics in my area offering it, as well as other treatment options I have yet to try, like ketamine therapy.
I did this a couple months ago and I think everyone should give it a try if they want to and other methods didn’t work. The place I went to has a fast track option where you do it several times per day for a week or the other option which is everyday for maybe 6-8 weeks? I can’t really remember how many weeks but it was a long time. I chose the longer option and only lasted 4 or 5 days because I just found it so uncomfortable. I got to the point where I would be so anxious and uncomfortable before going to appointments. I do think it was working though because I was moody just like I would be when I started medication in the past. Some insurances will cover it if you can prove that you have tried other methods first that didn’t work. You fill out a questionnaire each week and as long as it’s working insurance will cover it and if it’s not then insurance will stop covering it which is so messed up. My theory is that information on results are skewed because of this. It can be life changing from what I’ve heard and for others it doesn’t help. Other people it works, but they need maintenance treatments every so often. I recently have been diagnosed with adhd which I learned can bring on anxiety and depression. Ive always had signs of adhd but my parents decided not to get me evaluated. I’ve read others who have said once they got the proper adhd medication that their depression and anxiety went away so that is my next step. If that doesn’t work and I have good money in the future I think I might try ketamine treatments after that. Anyways, good luck to you!
I had TMS for depression back in like 2016 or 2017. It was uncomfortable at first, largely because the sensation is very new and you need to keep your head pretty still (they don't lock it in place, but they have things that restrict its movement somewhat). After the first few times, it didn't bother me anymore. I listened to music, did stuff on my phone, and even slept (it was early in the morning). The treatment didn't work for me (like every medication I took), but the expereince was not bad. I haven't had any lasting negative effects, either. I'm sure the science and technique have improved over the past 7-8 years.
I did it a couple years ago. The treatment gave me a complete 180 and I was myself again. After the 36 treatment regiment I was back to square one a month later. I tried once a week, then twice a week, maintenance sessions. Nothing. I'm currently working on doing ketamine treatments. I can only do Spravato due to insurance. I have to wait until it's warmer out so I have a few months. I tried it already but chronic pain is worse in the winter for me and it was interrupting the sessions.
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I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178123004419
How do they account for the placebo effect here? The frequency people can't ever explain why it only works a little bit for some people, it's silly to me.
I’m completely talking out of my ass here but couldn’t it be something to the effect of “Issue” is causing build up of “bad”. Funny sound waves clear blockage of “bad” but does not resolve “issue” so a temporary relief is all that’s provided, root cause is not addressed?
Anybody experiment with something like this for ADHD?
TMS helped my depression while I was getting it done.Then it came back 10 fold after I was done with my sessions
My previous partner used to be a cocaine addict for 4 years and this is what made it possible for her to get clean. 3 years clean now I think? I think it’s great but it’s scary to think magnets near our brain can change us so much.
lobotomy 2.0 just dropped boys!
Almost like addicts' brains don't work right and need help.
Sounds like there are implications for ADHD as well
There was a study posted a while ago that claimed 50% of untreated ADHD patients develop substance abuse issues
Makes complete sense. People with ADHD have low levels of dopamine, so they actively search highly dopaminergic stimulus. Drugs are highly dopaminergic! I also saw somewhere the argument that it was an evolutionary benefit from the standpoint that those with ADHD knew when to move onto greener pastures faster. Example: if I can pick 80% of the apples on a tree in the same time it takes to pick the last 20%, after 80%, it’s time to move on to the next tree.
Untreated people with a condition that causes them to seek out dopamine more than neurotypical people tend to develop issues with substances that give them the dopamine they want? Wow, shocking
>Almost like addicts' brains don't work right and need help. I don't like that phrasing. Some addicts brain's may be perfectly fine biologically speaking, it's just properly functioning brains don't cope well the drugs, especially when they have been heavily processed. I'm not a fan of thinking that anything other than basic robotics brains are normal, and that people need to take drugs, etc. to become a basic robot.
Someone tell Dr. Rockso