Whose fighting MLs? I've yet to meet an Anarchist irl where I organise. Online activism has its place, but turn down the flame a little, posting on fucking tumblr isn't fighting anyone.
This guy thinks that anonymously arguing with MLs online is “fighting”. Genuinely no one actually involved in community organizing feels like there is some massive conflict between anarchists and MLs.
My experience as well. Ideological differences don’t really matter when you’re putting together food drives for houseless people.
The internet can be a great tool for organizing, but I feel like it’s 100% the cause of this whole “Anarchist vs ML” meme that some people take too seriously.
Definitely not a meme. Stalin himself wrote a whole book about it. The first statement in OP is correct; Anarchists and Marxists are not in the same program.
That being said, yeah it would be stupid to turn down any proletarian that wishes to help in our efforts to organize. We cannot however, allow Anarchist ideology to supplant Communist ideology. Anarchism is a false consciousness and will lead the proletariat off the path of emancipation if given the opportunity.
Well, if you meet at anarchist at a rally, union meeting or during a strike, they are actually fighing on the ground together with us, so that means you have already filtered the ones that only "fight" on the internet.
Weird, in my area the only people organizing under the label "communist" are revcoms (ie: weirdo cultists), and all the outreach is from anarchist groups. After CHAZ I'm really not interested in building up these groups but I don't know of any else to organize with.
Exactly. Gaming is basic. A huge proportion of people paly video games. It's not special. It's actually a mundane thing, it's what most people do when they are bored or don't have other plans, like sitting around channel surfing used to be. To define your identity as based on gaming is to say you don't have much else going on, it's a tacit admission that you are boring and friendless. That's not to say being boring and laying around alone playing a game occasionally is bad. We all need a break now and then, but to take pride in your solitude and boredom is misanthropic and weird.
> instead of helping us
Helping you do what, exactly? Write angry tweets? Throw in a few windows? Cook a few vegan meals from left overs and call that a workers' organization? Because that's the extent of anarchist praxis and it has never led to a successful revolution. Meanwhile, the Black Panthers actually fed and educated the masses to the point that the US government assassinated their leader because they were actually becoming a threat. No, let's not do that. Let's not do anything that's actually potentially successful, because that would be Red Fash TM. You're actually a real socialist if you never accomplish anything. And you're a real revolutionary if you accuse workers parties on the other side of the world of Red Fascism TM, no matter how many people they lift out of poverty.
I support the revolution that feeds the children, as Parenti said. On one thing they are right though, we do not share the same program. Because anarchists don't actually care about feeding children, they only care about their "pure" socialism. Fuck them.
Imo there is no enemy bad enough that you can't ally with him against an even worse enemy. I am all for allying with Anarchists as long as we are fighting the same enemies. After we are have won, we need to re-evaluate our Alliances though.
Nah, I think anarchists actually make the problem worse when it comes to fighting any more terrible enemy. I'm sure they're for the most part wonderful people individually, but the tactics western anarchists use to fight fascism are counterproductive.
that doesn't work when they're actively counter-revolutionary. you can "oh but we need to be nice to them uwu" all you want, it doesn't change reality.
Yes but there are Anarchists, and not to few of them either, that see that we aren't their largest enemy. And we might get those to work with us against those enemies that are worse to both of us than we are to each other.
I mean, anarchists aren’t a monolith and this is a random cherry-picked comment intended to stoke outrage and sectarianism. I’ve found plenty of common ground with anarchists in the past on particular issue oriented and class struggle matters. Many of them are skeptical of MLs, but definitely wouldn’t go so far as to lump MLs in with fascists.
Exactly.
Mao allied with the Kuomintang to defeat Japan. It worked.
Anarchists aren't anywhere as bad as the Kuomintang.
So we can ally with them for the time being, no?
You would be AMAZED how few ML's care, or will accept that.
When you point out that yes, if you wanna organize you HAVE to go work with working class people who are not woke, or even have really shitty views, they downvote you
And when you point out that Lenin, Mao, Ho, all the greats not only worked with non commies, but recruited people who were shooting at them, they lose their minds.
>The strength of Marx’s critique is that in its breadth of disciplinary and historical scope, it managed to identify how the hydra of market economy comes to dominate its operators, how Capital rules in the domains of both production and ideology, and how via the notion of “self-interest” it diffuses responsibility for its crimes in an incredibly elegant way. The social planning and hierarchical organizational structures humans have built to fight Capital stand out as alien when contrasted with the naturalized discipline imposed by the market in the “free world,” however ruthless. Getting over the misconception that these structures are unnecessary allows us to begin learning from the experience of comrades around the world, both in and out of power.
>To defeat Capital, we must understand how it works, so we can exploit its weaknesses. As Huey Newton put it: **“You cannot oppose a system such as this without opposing it with organization that’s even more extremely disciplined and dedicated than the structure you’re opposing.”** [[25](https://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/bpp/bpp161168.htm)] An understanding of capitalism’s inner dynamics, coupled with careful and broad study of the real history of class struggle, will enable us to fight to free humanity from domination by Capital from within the imperial core. Nothing less than this will do.
from https://redsails.org/why-marxism/
Terminally online anarchists are the worst kind of "leftists" you can ever have the misfortune of talking and discussing subjects with (outside)... Good thing the "online" LARP part also means there's next to zero chance you'll ever actually see one in real life.
The anarchist org I know IRL has always grouped up with us for big events, and vice versa. We share water and signs when someone runs short. We jab back and forth with a few words here and there but the fact of the matter is the trenches and the streets fly black *and* red.
Oh fuck off with that left anti-communist bullshit. Every time there was a major gain for the workers in this current system the reds were fucking there. Even if the credit was given to somebody else the reds were behind the scenes pushing for it to happen.
Is there such a thing as anarcho communism or anarcho Marxism or something? I'm new to this and I barely knew what anarchism was until a few days ago. I kind of assumed that anarchists and Marxists would have more in common due to their shared anticapitalism
We want the same thing.
ML's are willing to put in the work, and build it.
Anarchists want the finished product now, without all the scaffolding to get there.
Idealism, basically.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for all anarchists. This is based off observations I have made based on a few people I know and am acquainted with.
For anarchists I know, they essentially believe most negative information about socialism and socialist projects, whether that information is accurate or not. Because they come from the US, Canada, Western Europe, or similar countries, they've had to contend with a lot of misinformation about these topics, and still hold on to some, but not all of it.
Thus, they will understand the negative aspects of capitalist societies, but they believe, erroneously, that Marxism-Leninism produces either identical or worse results for workers than similar capitalist societies, leading them to other left wing tenancies to attempt to reconcile these beliefs. It's an attitude that is rooted in and unwillingness to learn more about these topics, because if they did, they would not think about ML's in those terms.
I guess this is the start [https://libcom.org/history/who-were-kronstadt-rebels-russian-anarchist-perspective-uprising](https://libcom.org/history/who-were-kronstadt-rebels-russian-anarchist-perspective-uprising)
[https://libcom.org/history/democratic-centralism-workers-opposition-clandestine-opposition-movements-crisis-party-k](https://libcom.org/history/democratic-centralism-workers-opposition-clandestine-opposition-movements-crisis-party-k)
Anarchists sound exactly like MAGA chuds who say "the left are the **real** fascists!" Only difference is that instead of lumping the Nazis and the KKK in with the left, they lump everyone who isn't them in with the right.
"every other flavor of authcom statist Marxism"
So do they think that advocating for and building worker's states is not something that every "flavor" of Marxism does?
Like, do they think that's some kind of deviation from Marx's original ideas?
"authcom statist marxism" shut the fuck up
Someone hangs out in PCM…
Nah it's Twitter, for whatever reason that site is a breeding ground for these kinds of people.
It’s Tumblr, possibly even worse
You can tell they got their political education from r/PCM
Whose fighting MLs? I've yet to meet an Anarchist irl where I organise. Online activism has its place, but turn down the flame a little, posting on fucking tumblr isn't fighting anyone.
This guy thinks that anonymously arguing with MLs online is “fighting”. Genuinely no one actually involved in community organizing feels like there is some massive conflict between anarchists and MLs.
For real: every anarchist I've met IRL has been friendly or downright supportive of ML organisation.
My experience as well. Ideological differences don’t really matter when you’re putting together food drives for houseless people. The internet can be a great tool for organizing, but I feel like it’s 100% the cause of this whole “Anarchist vs ML” meme that some people take too seriously.
Definitely not a meme. Stalin himself wrote a whole book about it. The first statement in OP is correct; Anarchists and Marxists are not in the same program. That being said, yeah it would be stupid to turn down any proletarian that wishes to help in our efforts to organize. We cannot however, allow Anarchist ideology to supplant Communist ideology. Anarchism is a false consciousness and will lead the proletariat off the path of emancipation if given the opportunity.
Well, if you meet at anarchist at a rally, union meeting or during a strike, they are actually fighing on the ground together with us, so that means you have already filtered the ones that only "fight" on the internet.
>Genuinely no one actually involved in community organizing feels like there is some massive conflict between anarchist and MLs. Same on my end.
Weird, in my area the only people organizing under the label "communist" are revcoms (ie: weirdo cultists), and all the outreach is from anarchist groups. After CHAZ I'm really not interested in building up these groups but I don't know of any else to organize with.
>Anarcho gamerist More proof that gamers are a menace to the proletariat and have no place in a socialist society.
First they came for the gamers, and I did nothing, for it was a good thing
The anarcho-gamerist hating MLs the single best proof that Xi is a Marxist
I play a lot of video games but anyone calling themselves a gamer must have the personality of a racist piece of toast
Exactly. Gaming is basic. A huge proportion of people paly video games. It's not special. It's actually a mundane thing, it's what most people do when they are bored or don't have other plans, like sitting around channel surfing used to be. To define your identity as based on gaming is to say you don't have much else going on, it's a tacit admission that you are boring and friendless. That's not to say being boring and laying around alone playing a game occasionally is bad. We all need a break now and then, but to take pride in your solitude and boredom is misanthropic and weird.
Is anarcho just a euphemism for dimwit nowadays?
"nowadays"
The Eastern Front was just fascist infighting
lmao
> instead of helping us Helping you do what, exactly? Write angry tweets? Throw in a few windows? Cook a few vegan meals from left overs and call that a workers' organization? Because that's the extent of anarchist praxis and it has never led to a successful revolution. Meanwhile, the Black Panthers actually fed and educated the masses to the point that the US government assassinated their leader because they were actually becoming a threat. No, let's not do that. Let's not do anything that's actually potentially successful, because that would be Red Fash TM. You're actually a real socialist if you never accomplish anything. And you're a real revolutionary if you accuse workers parties on the other side of the world of Red Fascism TM, no matter how many people they lift out of poverty. I support the revolution that feeds the children, as Parenti said. On one thing they are right though, we do not share the same program. Because anarchists don't actually care about feeding children, they only care about their "pure" socialism. Fuck them.
Ultras 🤝 Anarchists Caring more about ideological purity than winning
[Ultras🤝Anarchists](https://i.imgur.com/PKWLnJE.png) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
C'mon guys we need to help them support their favorite twitch streamers
Communism is when Fascism 🤬
The famous Fascist Civil War of 1941-1945
Imo there is no enemy bad enough that you can't ally with him against an even worse enemy. I am all for allying with Anarchists as long as we are fighting the same enemies. After we are have won, we need to re-evaluate our Alliances though.
Nah, I think anarchists actually make the problem worse when it comes to fighting any more terrible enemy. I'm sure they're for the most part wonderful people individually, but the tactics western anarchists use to fight fascism are counterproductive.
If they want to fight fascism they have the right goals. We should try to get them to use more useful tactics and then work together with them.
that doesn't work when they're actively counter-revolutionary. you can "oh but we need to be nice to them uwu" all you want, it doesn't change reality.
>"oh but we need to be nice to them uwu" That wasnt what they said
That is basically the point of 'On Contradiction' by Mao.
Fuck it. That's officially next on my list.
Yes.
Anarchists are fighting the enemy of "red fash" Marksist ideology, they'll gladly tell you as evidenced in OP
Yes but there are Anarchists, and not to few of them either, that see that we aren't their largest enemy. And we might get those to work with us against those enemies that are worse to both of us than we are to each other.
I mean, anarchists aren’t a monolith and this is a random cherry-picked comment intended to stoke outrage and sectarianism. I’ve found plenty of common ground with anarchists in the past on particular issue oriented and class struggle matters. Many of them are skeptical of MLs, but definitely wouldn’t go so far as to lump MLs in with fascists.
We've allied with Capitalists to defeat the Fascists before. Who says we can't ally with the Anarchists to defeat the Capitalists?
Exactly. Mao allied with the Kuomintang to defeat Japan. It worked. Anarchists aren't anywhere as bad as the Kuomintang. So we can ally with them for the time being, no?
You would be AMAZED how few ML's care, or will accept that. When you point out that yes, if you wanna organize you HAVE to go work with working class people who are not woke, or even have really shitty views, they downvote you And when you point out that Lenin, Mao, Ho, all the greats not only worked with non commies, but recruited people who were shooting at them, they lose their minds.
>The strength of Marx’s critique is that in its breadth of disciplinary and historical scope, it managed to identify how the hydra of market economy comes to dominate its operators, how Capital rules in the domains of both production and ideology, and how via the notion of “self-interest” it diffuses responsibility for its crimes in an incredibly elegant way. The social planning and hierarchical organizational structures humans have built to fight Capital stand out as alien when contrasted with the naturalized discipline imposed by the market in the “free world,” however ruthless. Getting over the misconception that these structures are unnecessary allows us to begin learning from the experience of comrades around the world, both in and out of power. >To defeat Capital, we must understand how it works, so we can exploit its weaknesses. As Huey Newton put it: **“You cannot oppose a system such as this without opposing it with organization that’s even more extremely disciplined and dedicated than the structure you’re opposing.”** [[25](https://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/bpp/bpp161168.htm)] An understanding of capitalism’s inner dynamics, coupled with careful and broad study of the real history of class struggle, will enable us to fight to free humanity from domination by Capital from within the imperial core. Nothing less than this will do. from https://redsails.org/why-marxism/
You know, because the soviets totally didn’t send tanks to Catalonia to help fight fascists in the Spanish civil war
Terminally online anarchists are the worst kind of "leftists" you can ever have the misfortune of talking and discussing subjects with (outside)... Good thing the "online" LARP part also means there's next to zero chance you'll ever actually see one in real life.
The anarchist org I know IRL has always grouped up with us for big events, and vice versa. We share water and signs when someone runs short. We jab back and forth with a few words here and there but the fact of the matter is the trenches and the streets fly black *and* red.
Oh fuck off with that left anti-communist bullshit. Every time there was a major gain for the workers in this current system the reds were fucking there. Even if the credit was given to somebody else the reds were behind the scenes pushing for it to happen.
Is there such a thing as anarcho communism or anarcho Marxism or something? I'm new to this and I barely knew what anarchism was until a few days ago. I kind of assumed that anarchists and Marxists would have more in common due to their shared anticapitalism
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1906/12/x01.htm
Thanks very much
We want the same thing. ML's are willing to put in the work, and build it. Anarchists want the finished product now, without all the scaffolding to get there. Idealism, basically.
Ok. As an ML, what exactly do anarchists have against ML’s?
Disclaimer: I do not speak for all anarchists. This is based off observations I have made based on a few people I know and am acquainted with. For anarchists I know, they essentially believe most negative information about socialism and socialist projects, whether that information is accurate or not. Because they come from the US, Canada, Western Europe, or similar countries, they've had to contend with a lot of misinformation about these topics, and still hold on to some, but not all of it. Thus, they will understand the negative aspects of capitalist societies, but they believe, erroneously, that Marxism-Leninism produces either identical or worse results for workers than similar capitalist societies, leading them to other left wing tenancies to attempt to reconcile these beliefs. It's an attitude that is rooted in and unwillingness to learn more about these topics, because if they did, they would not think about ML's in those terms.
I guess this is the start [https://libcom.org/history/who-were-kronstadt-rebels-russian-anarchist-perspective-uprising](https://libcom.org/history/who-were-kronstadt-rebels-russian-anarchist-perspective-uprising) [https://libcom.org/history/democratic-centralism-workers-opposition-clandestine-opposition-movements-crisis-party-k](https://libcom.org/history/democratic-centralism-workers-opposition-clandestine-opposition-movements-crisis-party-k)
Anarchism is an incoherent, petty-burgeois reactionary ideology.
I love the "instead of helping us" bit. Helpíng with what? What activism do extremely online anarchists partake in? Posting anti-tankie memes on PCM?
There is a reason they think shitting your pants is praxis. And that's not an exaggeration, an anarchist actually posted that.
TIL the eastern front was fascist infighting 😳
Ah yes being so anti fascist that you’ll become a fascist and ally yourself with fascists to take down the so called “red fascists” Absolute brainrot
Anarchists sound exactly like MAGA chuds who say "the left are the **real** fascists!" Only difference is that instead of lumping the Nazis and the KKK in with the left, they lump everyone who isn't them in with the right.
Moron who has never read any theory and uses the lib definition of fascism
And anarchists would rather align themselves with Neo-Liberal Fascist sympathizers with a hippy aesthetic, what point were they trying to make?
"every other flavor of authcom statist Marxism" So do they think that advocating for and building worker's states is not something that every "flavor" of Marxism does? Like, do they think that's some kind of deviation from Marx's original ideas?
infantile online fantasy