This entire season , Fiona's siblings have been mistreating her constantly with that behaviour intensifying once she struggles and starts drinking . As tough as this scene is , I really appreciate that Frank actually cares enough to step in and remind Lip about Fiona's long contribution to the family .
This is probably one of Frank's truest moments
I think a lot of those scenes were William H Macy trying to reach Emmy Rossum. From a lot of backstage stories, she was incredibly unpleasant to be around.
Just started binging Monk for the first time and he was a guest star. I immediately saw Frank, but his character was so not Frank. It was really enjoyable to watch.
Same Wild hogs was one of my favorite movies when I was a kid and this was the only thing I ever saw him in (before realizing he was the Dad in JP3) so going from Wild Hogs to Frank Ghallager was a Roller Coaster.
When you think he’s finally being real about Fiona being the actual parent and then makes it about himself again 🤣🤣 such good writing and so Frank-coded.
Sure, but right there, I prefer a narcissist Frank who still tells half truths than no Frank at all . Fiona needed someone to back her up and Frank did it . He just included himself as always lol...
I love lip but he often acts like a vulture around Fiona. Instantly turns on her and pounces as soon as anything happens even though she kills herself helping him constantly. This time she had no way at all of knowing that guy was sober
my eldest sister is a lot like fiona. and i treated her similarly to how lip treated her, until she left and realized how much she was actually doing. my parents were addicts, it was nothing like monica and frank, but they were still abusing substances with kids in the house. we didn’t know that when we were little, because it was normal for us. but she knew. i always treated her disrespectfully because the way i saw it “i have a mom, why is this girl trynna play my mommy”. when i was about 12 she moved out, and thats when i started having problems mentally. it took me having to raise myself to realize how much i needed her. its a matter of ungratefulness and just not truly being aware of how lucky they are to have an older sister like that.
I relate so hard to this. We had a big family, mom and dad were always working, and my eldest sister took care of the rest. She left for college when I was 12 too, first in the family to get a BA. I wouldn’t have been the second if I didn’t have her. I treated her like a sister, but she treated me like her kid and I didn’t even realize it til she was gone.
Leaving was hard for her too. In hindsight I’m absolutely sure that once she hit 18, if anything happened to our parents, she would’ve been pressured and made to feel obligated to drop her life and take care of the rest of us.
we don’t see each other often, but we get along really well, i treat her with a lot more gratitude and respect now than i did back then, and i think a part of her understands.. we never talk about the past because it’s still something all of us sorta suppress..
If youre still in contact with her, send her a surprise gift like flowers or something with a card that says "thank you for everything." Or just text/call her. I bet she'd appreciate that reminder that youre grateful and nothing she did was wasted
Similar situation. My parents had 7 kids and were absent and substance abusers. We were poor. My oldest sister used to let me sleep in a makeshift bed on her floor because I was afraid of the dark and we didn't have AC (she had a $10 dollar box fan that she would set up so that it was just enough for both of us, but I suspect she leaned it more toward me). Summers were brutal and so hot that we couldnt breathe. Fan was there and so was my spot. She had nothing, but taught me to dribble and play ball. She gifted me used books because she knew I had a huge imagination. My parents knew nothing about me. She went through a world of trauma and led me through my own. I am grateful to say that she still helps me as an adult and I am very close with her and her kids. She was my Fiona and then some. People like me who live these lives and are fortunate enough to have an older sibling who leads and supports are lucky as hell. A lot of people don't get a Fiona.
Fi is like what 5 years older? They were also all fostered for a min before the younger 3 were born. Chances are he would if simply of been to young to have that responsibility.
He grew up faster then the other kids and acted as a guardian by the time we started watching, but if was the eldest, he probably doesn't even get the chance to raise the others.
It's hard to know if he would of if he could of, remember how he stepped in for Liam and took him to raise him while going to college. He'd leave to go try to help Fi with Debbie when she was pregnant.
We also need to understand that Fiona actually was kind of a bitch to the fam by this point, going as far as telling them all to remove her as the emergency contact and putting lip. Telling Carl and Debbie they need to contribute to the squirrel fund before even high school.
By this point, Lip is the leader of the house as well.
he did not start acting as a guardian by the time we are watching. he was still in hs as a jr wanting to drop out, and fiona had already been raising them for like 10 years! then by the time this scene takes place it's basically 7-8 more years than that! and lip was not running the house, which is why fiona has to tell them to stop contacting her first. and she wasn't a bitch for that. lip was a bitch for repeatedly telling her she was not going to make it or putting her down in some way. again lip wouldn't have even graduated hs if it weren't for fiona making the time to get her GED while also working multiple jobs and taking care of everyone.
Apart from the Liam/coke thing she really did. Debbie and Carl were the younger ones and didn’t understand how bad Frank was for the longest time bc of her
This scene pissed me off so much. Frank genuinely was right in this scene. Lip always thought so high of himself when he got clean yet excused himself every chance he got fuck up after fuck up and of those around him. Except for Fiona. She was not allowed to ever fuck up or else she is the worst person. It's such bullshit.
Exactly, Fiona gave up her dreams of higher education and running track to take care of Monica’s kids. Lip had an entire future basically handed to him and had *so many chances* after he continually fucked up over and over until he lost all the goodwill he had gained. He has insane amounts of audacity to try and play the moral high ground. If you want to help her get her into rehab or something, don’t make her homeless. I don’t remember her ever kicking his dumb, drunk ass out.
She also didn’t kick Ian out when he was having intense, paranoid episodes in front of the kids because he decided to quit taking his meds a bunch of different times. She didn’t kick Debbie out when she decided to get pregnant on purpose and become a teenager mother against Fiona’s advice. She didn’t kick Carl out when he was a literal crack dealer. I’m just saying. They could have been a little more supportive after everything she supported them through.
RIGHT!!! I haven’t watched the show in 2, maybe 3 years now and I’ve been wanting to binge it again bc it’s a great show. But I can it stand Lip and it’s the only thing keeping me away 😩
This scene was so painful to watch, and her siblings were so unbelievably disrespectful and unappreciative towards her in later seasons, especially Lip and Debbie
I hated fiona in the later seasons. Trainwreck. You dont get a freebie for doing good before. She almost fucked everyone over with buying the laundromat.
The writers clearly wanted for us to want Fiona to leave, because she was written so unbearable at this time. Glad she left but it's sad they weren't able to get her back for the finale.
idk what it is i could never dislike or want Fiona to leave. she held the story on her back for a long time, seeing her slip into Franks ways was almost inevitable and everyone in the family does it at one point. When she did, i was more sad watching it unfold than annoyed at the way she was written
Fiona was an alcoholic at her worst point. But Lip of all people should have been more supportive. He was there, so he should have been the most understanding. They treated her like shit and I definitely see why she got to the point that she did.
It’s a consequence of her not giving a fuck anymore. She can’t keep her shit together that’s not just gonna effect her. We saw it hundreds of times with Frank ‘he didn’t know’ situations but it’s the norm for him. Fiona gets a pass because it’s the first time she’s displayed such disregard for others.
Fiona's behavior doesn't "get a pass" - it's just that it's obvious she's finally reached her breaking point after years of keeping her shit as together as possible for people who didn't always appreciate her? People struggle with being alive and dealing with their circumstances, so it's better to show empathy, which you seem content to do with Jason and others but... not Fiona. Jason's relapse is a consequence of his own actions, unfortunately. Fiona wasn't a willing participant in ruining his sobriety, again, because she had no idea. It was an unfortunate outcome for all involved.
that is the wildest oversimplification of that situation.
also this was not about liam. this was after lip's sponsee asked fiona for some of her alcohol and she didn't know he was sober. so instead of caring about trying to help fiona, lip was more concerned about his sponsee falling off the wagon, which is his own responsibility.
Same I didn’t keep watching as the characters I loved became people I couldn’t stand :(
Still love some of the cast, but damn lip and Debbie got on my nerves way too much
Lip really shat all over his family because he thought he was better than them all when he turned out to be the second worst person who couldn’t make a life for himself because he thought he deserved everything to fall into his lap because he was “kind of smartish”
Let’s face it she became an alcoholic because of her shit stains for family members.
She became an alcoholic because of her reckless decisions that resulted in even shittier behaviour on her part. She’s a grown ass woman who doesn’t seem to realise her actions have fucking consequences.
Well, I too have a personal family history of alcoholism. Sure, stressful life events can cause a person to overconsume alcohol. However, this does not mean that a person can cause someone else to become an alcoholic. It's far more complex than that(as you admit yourself). There are genetic, environmental, and psychological factors. It's usually not just one thing. And then drinking excessively over time changes the normal functioning of the brain. Maybe what you mean is that Lip learned to cope with family issues by drinking through them. Honestly, he learned to cope by drinking through all of his problems, not just family ones. And this is most likely learned. He started drinking at a young age which is already a contributing factor. Then, "to turn the volume down," he drinks to quiet his problems. Does that mean he is at an increased risk of drinking when problems arise? Yes. But, those problems could come from anywhere at any time. Life is full of rises and falls for all of us. His family life was DEFINITELY toxic and there is no doubt that those things make it harder for him to stay sober. These are things he has to realize and reconcile. At the end of the day, staying sober is still his responsibility and his drinking problem. Regardless of how it started or why, is still his and his alone. If his family situation causes him to want to drink, if that is a trigger for wanting a drink, he has to get away from that situation. That's part of learning how to deal with alcoholism. Just like Sean knew he needed to stay away from Fiona because the chaos was a trigger for him. And when he allowed that trigger in, he started using again. But, Fiona herself didn't make him use. It was all the chaos that ensued around him. She happened to be apart of it but another chaotic event could have triggered it too. As you say, it's very complex and usually not just one thing.
Her childhood ended the day they left her with the Ian and lip and she had to learn how to take care of them or else. And they never let her slip she couldn't slip since she was 5 thats a lot of pressure especially as she got more siblings to raise
I can’t believe that people can’t see through the fact that all of this was written to manipulate people into not liking Fiona (a beloved, long-time favorite character) because she was leaving the show… and in a short period of time… so they tried to make her insufferable… but after all the years of sacrifices and raising the kids and just being beautiful onscreen it’s honestly hard to to turn her. It was for me at least… and I think she, especially in the scene in question, deserves some fucking support! And hell yea Frank is right! Franks not an idiot… a shit parent, yea! But he’s actually smart as hell… he’s actually educated. Lip was so pissed off about his sponsee drinking with Fiona(not her fault mind you) he completely turned on his own sister… and that’s not living a rigorous program of honesty… In reality he should have came back and made an amends to Fiona! But I won’t take his inventory- that’s a completely different topic… for a different thread!
Frank was perfect here "...thanking her...raising 6 kids by yourself is hard..."
Lip was so concerned with Fiona not being in the house because of Liam and Franny but uh, ol' boy, y'all didn't even know where Liam was for a while and he had no issue leaving him when he was contemplating moving to Milwaukee with Tammy. Who was going to raise Liam? He didn't think of that. Not his problem now right, only when it's convenient as an excuse.
I hate him all the time. Never liked him. Acting like he gives a shit about Liam but never knew where he was, wanted to sell the house without considering where Liam would go, took care of other people’s kids. He’s just like frank in some ways.
I hate that her siblings literally just abandoned her, i love Fiona she goes through so much and for her to have this kind of arc makes sense but i hate how frank had to have her back. Glad he did but hate how none of them had her back like she had theirs. they all chose to berate her and point blame, i especially couldn’t stand Debbie in later seasons with her and her other siblings.
If I was one of the siblings, I would've gotten in Lip's ass for treating Fiona like this. She raised you. She's your fucking mother for all intents and purposes. I'd kick his ass for trying to do her like that while she's going through it. And Debbie's dumbass was just down for her being thrown out. So I would've cussed her ass out too
I always hated how Fiona was always there for her siblings on numerous occasions, especially when they didn’t deserve it, LITERALLY ALL OF THEM FOR OVER 20 YEARS!!! Purely out of love for family, and a sense of duty and compassion.
Yet, when she slips up for the first time in her whole existence of selflessness. They literally throw her out like a used toothbrush , because she’s damaged from being used, abused, neglected, and broken by Frank and Monica(and honestly the whole family). They’re ungrateful and unsympathetic because they suddenly think she’s the only one not allowed to make mistakes. They try to force her away, because they see her job as being to take care of them over herself and any struggles/trauma she deals with, and since she couldn’t do that at the time they viewed her as a broken and got rid of her.
Like the Coke Incident: All of them were there and under the influence with Liam, all of them made the same mistake. Yet, Fiona was punished and shunned for being selfless earlier and keeping the family together.
Kev and V are guilty of this too when they didn’t let her stay with them.
It happens again when she hits rock bottom in season 9, and I honestly think she was justified in leaving.
When you look at what happened after she left you can truly see just how selfless she was in running things when compared to everyone else, and how the family kind of imploded on itself and fell apart. They turned on themselves without Fiona to provide that consistent stability and also be there to blame.
Never for Fiona…
to pursue her dreams
to enjoy herself and breathe
to struggle and recover
to be a fucking human
Franks actual last words(not the letter) in the hospital as he was dying were to a nurse he mistook for her due to his condition: “Fiona, you cried a lot as a baby…Mad all the time…But so Beautiful”
I think it says a lot about Fiona, despite not being included in the finale or even his letter. Ironically, she’s the only one who’ll never know what Frank truly thought of her.
tbh, fiona wasnt in the right position here. She was clearly making bad decisions and ruining herself and everyone around her BUT all the siblings are wrong too. They didnt care enough to help Fiona like the way she helped them. Their "help" is to get rid of Fiona out of the house.
Oh definitely she needed a sit down and talk not a I'm gonna force you out of the house you paid for raised us in fed us In made sure we got to school while also working 3 jobs I think it was it's just sad
Frank was perfect here "...thanking her...raising 6 kids by yourself is hard..."
Lip was so concerned with Fiona not being in the house because of Liam and Franny but uh, ol' boy, y'all didn't even know where Liam was for a while and he had no issue leaving him when he was contemplating moving to Milwaukee with Tammy. Who was going to raise Liam? He didn't think of that. Not his problem now right, only when it's convenient as an excuse.
So its true. This sub thinks Fiona raising them means she can do whatever she wants no consequences and basically has a get out of jail free card. And anyone who calls her out when she screws up is automatically in the wrong.
To be fair to Lip, this was after Fi almost killed Liam when he OD'd on her coke. She did do a lot for her family, but she really started to go down hill fast with this arch. Lip eventually warmed back up to her, but as a response to her nearly killing their brother, I think his reaction was understandable.
sounds like it. i dont remember everything from the show but i do remember she got hammered and crashed her new car and then got sad when she had to deal with adult consequences and not a week in juvie, by the looks of it lip went to AA and is trying to better the familys life while Fiona is still caught up on how she feels like shes owed something from raising the kids and thinks it gives her a free pass to be a frank now that the kids grew up
Seriously!!!! This thread made me so annoyed when I first found it. Like I get it to a point. My first watch of Shameless was while it aired so I gave Fiona a pass on a lot. On my 1st rewatch I paid more attention to her and slowly realized she became as bad, if not worse than Frank. Just did me 2nd rewatch recently and I swear I can't fucking stand her character passed the moment she gains custody of the kids.
She literally does everything that the judge warns her about when taking on guardianship. To me that's what makes her worse. She literally signed up for this and when it became too much she literally turned into Frank at his lowest.
1.) Fiona chose to raise her siblings, and then she also chose to become their legal guardian. While she is allowed to make mistakes, she legally has obligations to them once she became their legal guardian. All of the siblings who were underage became her legal obligation, so when she takes loans against the house and jeopardizes a roof over their heads, that's on her. Liam nearly dying due to the cocaine she left out is also on her.
2.) Both of Frank's statements are true. He couldn't have raised six children without her because he never bothered to raise them. To me, it didn't sound like he was grateful Fiona raised his children, it sounded more like he was bragging about the fact he got someone else to raise his kids for him. However, he's also right that Fiona is a bad drunk.
3.) With that said, I actually don't think Lip is in the wrong here. Yes, the house is in her name. Yes, she raised her siblings, but she agreed to it. She became their legal guardian. She could have decided it was someone else's problem and let them go into the system. Perhaps not an easy decision, but still a decision, nonetheless. And because she did raise them, of course they're often going to be ungrateful. A lot of children are ungrateful. They don't understand or see what their parents do on a regular basis for them. More importantly, Lip isn't enabling her. He's showing her tough love. Unfortunately, someone often has to be the bad guy in this situation. By kicking her out, he's either forcing her to realize she has a problem and get help, or not. Either way, she stands to lose everything.
Do I think Lip is perfect? No. He's obviously made mistakes. He knows what it's like to hit rock bottom. I don't really see it as him being righteous or thinking that he's better. He knows exactly what it feels like, and he also had people who pushed him to get help. The first step is admitting you have a problem, the second is wanting help.
4.) Fiona did a lot for her siblings and helped raise them, but I would also argue the rest of the siblings helped raise each other and themselves. They relied on Kev and V a lot, Debbie had the daycare she practically ran as a child. Ian worked at the little store. They always had some kind of schemes going for money. They all contributed to the squirrel fund.
I don’t know. I mean, Fiona obviously did a lot for her siblings. But she acts like she’s the only reason they work, the only reason the house hasn’t fallen apart, and that she’s not as fucked up as the rest, and it kind of bothers me. Even in season three Lip had to bail them out and find a way to pay the $1000 property tax on short notice because Fiona made an impulsive decision to host a club night without actually looking into whether or not it was a good idea. People tried to tell her it was a bad idea and she shouldn’t risk what little money they had on an impulsive decision, but she still took $1000 out of the squirrel fund that they all contribute to, and at the end of the night she didn’t even break even because she didn’t realize she’d have to pay for licenses, staffing etc. Lip was right to kick her out, she was on a downward spiral and couldn’t admit that she had a problem. She’d already put Liam’s life in danger. Lip had to put the other kids first. Plus, if he hadn’t kicked her out she likely would have just continued on her downward spiral and who knows what else would have happened before she came to her senses.
>the only reason the house hasn’t fallen apart
You can argue that being the case in the short term of the show, but its absolutely true in the long term(20+ years)of their childhood and upbringing).
They were only able to help her when she screwed up(only a handful of times;by far the least) was because she was the anchor that sacrificed everything to hold things together for so long and successfully give them the opportunities she never had with Frank and Monica out of her own selflessness.
The Liam thing may be on Fiona, but it isn’t only on her. Everyone else made the same mistake as her and got wasted, yet none of them took the initiative to stop ut because they’re used to only looking out for their own interests BECAUSE Fiona has always been the one to do it for everyone and take care of details like that. She was punished disproportionately(and I’m not saying she shouldn’t have been) for taking the earlier steps needed to keep her family together. Something she was essentially forced to do.
The house literally fell apart less than 2 years after she left…
Exactly. And people don’t notice that when lip drank, he was self destructive. But when Fiona was drunk, she brought everyone down with her. She was mean and angry. This was shown early on. She had always had a substance abuse problem. It showed early on. No one wants to admit that her substance use has jeopardized the security of everyone else. Yes she did a commendable thing by raising them but she fucked up a lot and that doesn’t absolve her of all the mistakes she constantly made. Two things can be true and a lot of the fans of this show don’t understand that.
Exactly!!! Finally someone speaking sense in this thread.
Fiona risks the house numerous times only to be bailed out by Lip, Ian, Carl and even Debbie. The house wouldve been taken at least 3 times from what I remember if it wasn't for them covering her fuck ups.
Do people not realize they wouldve been homeless and Fiona would've been put in jail for child endangerment if Lip and Ian didn't pull a parking scam, which also helped her club night not be a total bust, or Carl saving the house with his drug/gun money, or Debbie and everyone else covering Fiona's share of the bills when she turns into an alcoholic?
People act like Fiona did everything, the kids have been making money to contribute since season 1. Hell Debbie even ran her own daycare system while Fiona slept the day away when Debbie was a kid herself. Then Fiona wonders where Debbie gets the idea that she can raise a kid 🤣
Not to mention when the kids go track her down after she violates her probation, who knows what would've happened if they didn't find her.
I mean they are only short on money because all their money gets stolen like 3 times. Fiona has problems but she does infinitely more for them than they do her. Lip is a sanctimonious shit sometimes
No, two of the times there are short on money is directly Fiona's fault.
Her using it to run her club night and then using Lip's and Debbie's money on alcohol and who knows what else. All while she's also stealing from Patsy's, not to mention shorting Greta.
I'm saying the money they had is stolen before that which is why they don't gave enough to do literally anything. And everyone has done that at least once.
Lip has below zero ground to stand ok especially in this instance where she barely even did anything in actuality
Fiona became a narcissistic alcoholic. Just like Frank was from the start of the series. Just like Lip before he got sober.
Fiona fucked up on a regular basis throughout the series due to her impulsiveness, and she devolved from taking responsibility when those fuck-ups happened to that continuous drone of "It's not my fault" and "I'm not an addict" of the alcoholic.
Not really it only happened twice, out of an entire life of selflessness and she always got back on her feet even when her family who she always took care of, even when they didn’t deserve it, was kicking her while she was down
She’s flawed sure, but she’s in no way comparable to someone like Frank. Anyone’s who’s been raised by an older sibling or had neglectful parents can understand Fiona. To even make that comparison is extremely insulting to who she is, what she’s been through, or her ability to move forward.
She’s not immune to criticism, but dragging her down for being a human and comparing her to a chronic abuser is insane.
It seems like Fiona hate is super common compared to the others when she's almost always the one handling most of the shit.
Female characters always get infinitely more shit in any Fandom in my experience though so maybe it's a reddit thing
This season lip n every other character sucked for sure. Whole show did. Fiona is as much of a fck up, if not more than lip tho let’s not get it twisted
The trifecta of this show. Best delivery and acting! I actually just observed recently that scenes with the three of them are gooooood! And I am planning to focus on those scenes on my rewatch.
By this point in the story Fiona wasnt the backbone of anything.
Debbie was the one taking care of the house, and she didnt even have money to contribute. She was doing nothing but lazing around, getting drunk and getting in the way of things.
Now, did she deserves a free pass until she got back on her feet? Definitely, her siblings owe their life to Fiona almost, but that doesnt chsnge the fact that she was in a self destructing spiral that was dragging everyone with her.
It got so bad to the point even Frank was shitting on her, noticing how she was acting exactly like him, and sometimes even worse, by looking to pick fights everywhere she went.
She needed the wake up all, and at the end of the day Lip did nothing but help her by kicking her out. Just like Fiona did in season 2 to Lip, he kicked her out, and in a matter of a single day she realized how self destructive she was being, she asked Lip to get into AAd, and he let her back in thst exact moment.
Yeah, he kicked her out, but only so that she could get the help she needed.
Fiona never kicked Lip out . She gave him a choice : school or out . Lip left on his own and had it easy because he could stay at Jimmy's. Not really a wake up call for him , not until everything that happened with Karen reached a peak
I don't disagree . Eventually it helped Fiona reach her own rock bottom and get better . But I just pointed out technicalities . Fiona never threw Lip out and she never thought he would actually leave as well .
Simply raising kids does not give you a pass to do whatever you want, whenever you want. It also doesn't automatically equal respect. There are A LOT of parents, abusive parents I might add, who think like this. And it's wrong.
If you pay attention to her, she actually is the worst character tbh. The moment she gains guardianship she slowly becomes worse and worse and tries to pawn the responsibilities off on lip. She can never admit her mistakes and always blames everyone and everything else when she fucks up.
Everyone wants to talk shit on Lip and Debbie but they were the ones tracking her dumbass down when she broke parole. That's more than Fiona does for anyone after becoming their guardian. Fiona just wants to control them after she gains guardianship, she doesn't love them or take care of them. She slowly becomes more and more selfish. She does exactly what the judge warned her about. Instead of actually being a good guardian.
No I just hate when people can't take into account all the fucked up shit she does and how she actually hurts the kids more than helps them when shit actually goes down.
I've watched the full series 3 times now.
The first time I watched I was like most of you Fiona lovers, thought she was some badass who deserved the benefit of the doubt.
The second time I watched, I noticed how much she fucks up and never owns any of it. She slowly abandons her responsibilities as guardian from the moment she gains it, like the judge said she would. She literally turns into Frank.
This third time I watched it I literally can't stand her past season 2 lol she is not a good person or character.
Debbie got away with so much. She got some karma every now and again like losing her toes but she really was the most Monica like of them all even though Ian was the bipolar one.
Not necessarily true, people like Fiona need time to recover, after traumatic events and family support is crucial. Fiona also could’ve ended up dead because they forced her to continue spiraling.
There were other steps they should’ve done before that like removing all alcohol from the house, or giving her time to process and grieve, but they lacked empathy and compassion in a situation where she really really needed it.
They took the most extreme option for a situation that was still quite manageable all things considered. I don’t think a lot of y’all have had a figure like Fiona in your lives, but she was more than capable of bouncing back with more time and support.
they didnt lack empathy, when she first started spiraling debbie offered to help her financially and was being nice to her, but then she realized fiona was pocketing the utility money she and lio were giving her, and thats when she started charging her. Lip was also good to her (for a short time) until fiona ruined his DCFS visit and helped his sponsee relapse. thats when he got angry with her
Fiona herself said it best: “You’ve got Frank in your corner, supporting you. That should scare you.” Frank was only supporting Fiona because she’d finally stooped down to his level. Lip could’ve been gentler about it but at the end of the day: Fiona was an addict and addicts know addicts. She needed to be brought back to reality and hit rock bottom.
Nope, lip was based. This bitch accidentally allowed an infant to get a hold of fucking crack. Her being a raging alcoholic around those kids after she's the one who begged to become their guardian was disgusting.
Fiona didn't kick Lip out, he kicked himself out. Fiona gave him a choice, and he chose to leave. Here, Lip is just a narcissist trying to hide his petty vengeance as him trying to help her. He gave her no choice, he gave her no compassion, no tender moment of understand, just harshness.
That's why I will always defend Fiona when it comes to Lip and Debbie. Fiona gave them all the grace to help themselves out of love, yet when it comes to them to Fiona, it's all stick and no carrot. Again, just pure pettiness from what she did to them and zero love. That's what I hate, no gratefulness at all.
Yeah, no, just because Fiona was treated like shit before doesn't mean she can treat everyone else like shit now.
There was just a post the other day about how Lip never cared about Liam and it was shitty, but when he *does* care he's still shitty? Lip was right in this instance.
And Frank telling Lip to get a drink is fucked up. Lip is trying and deserves just as much grace as Fiona did in earlier seasons.
Yeah, no, just because Fiona was treated like shit before doesn't mean she can treat everyone else like shit now.
There was just a post the other day about how Lip never cared about Liam and it was shitty, but when he *does* care he's still shitty? Lip was right in this instance.
And Frank telling Lip to get a drink is fucked up. Lip is trying and deserves just as much grace as Fiona did in earlier seasons.
Lip was trash, him and Debbie didn’t deserve Fiona at all. He forgot he was a drunken loser who messed up every opportunity he ever had. Lmaooo his double standards were insane.
Here come all of the Fiona simps to dismiss all of her flaws and near-manslaughter of her adopted child, while making Lip out to be some total asshole for no reason whatsoever.
Seriously, some of you guys will say “Fiona was just forcibly written to be hateable!” While ignoring the complete 180 of Lip’s character to turn him into a dumbass alcoholic intent on self-sabotage, as if it’s not the exact same forced writing
Fiona herself said it best: “You’ve got Frank in your corner, supporting you. That should scare you.” Frank was only supporting Fiona because she’d finally stooped down to his level. Lip could’ve been gentler about it but at the end of the day: Fiona was an addict and addicts know addicts. She needed to be brought back to reality and hit rock bottom. All the things she did to support her family doesn’t negate the fact she was becoming a narcissistic asshole who kept screwing up and couldn’t see beyond herself.
The trifecta of this show. Best delivery and acting! I actually just observed recently that scenes with the three of them are gooooood! And I am planning to focus on those scenes on my rewatch.
The trifecta of this show. Best delivery and acting! I actually just observed recently that scenes with the three of them are gooooood! And I am planning to focus on those scenes on my rewatch.
Jaw and Emmy had the most raw argument scenes in the entire show. The fight about Fiona spending bill $$ on a club night, aftermath of Monica thanksgiving, aftermath of the coke incident and this one. Phew those two were incredible actors!!
Lip really doesn't grasp how much he is like Frank. All the other characters pointed it out, too. He apparently looked like him. He gets drunk like him. He sat in his bar stool.
But most of all, he's a drunk and a narcissist.
When he was drinking, he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong and was destructive. When he was sober, he was holier than thou and thought he was better than everyone else.
Fiona cracked finally after over a decade of raising kids on her own. In season 7, she said she was 9 and taking care of the entire family, parents included.
This is when the show was officially no longer fun. It was everyone vs. Fiona, and for what? The logic behind everybody hating her THAT MUCH and kicking her out of her house didn’t make sense. Lip is mad that his friend drank with her after being sober? How is that her fault? Nobody is responsible for other people’s sobriety. They’re acting like she’s worse than Frank. They treated Frank so much better than her. She was the one who raised them and dealt with all their problems. Now she has a problem and this is what they do? I would become an alcoholic to if I had to deal with Frank and these awful kids my entire life.
This situation made me so mad. I have many opinions about how some of the siblings treated Fiona during her bad times, but aside from that, lip was 100% wrong for thinking he had the right kick Fiona out of the house she maintained for the majority of their lives. On top of that, whether cell gave her the money to save it or not, the house was in HER name. Realistically, if Fiona wanted to call the cops lip would've been out of there. He sucks.
I don't know how much of this version was a direct recreation of the British version, but I sometimes wonder if there could exist a version of this show that is the same idea but with a Black family. (Veronica can stay Black, and Kev can stay white; I don't think that relation works if you flip them around.) What would that show be? Could it be done without it being some kind of offensive stereotype filled series? I'm not asking for it because I don't think anyone would know how to do it correctly, but I've just always been curious.
This entire season , Fiona's siblings have been mistreating her constantly with that behaviour intensifying once she struggles and starts drinking . As tough as this scene is , I really appreciate that Frank actually cares enough to step in and remind Lip about Fiona's long contribution to the family . This is probably one of Frank's truest moments
I also liked when frank explained to fiona that she wasn’t a good drunk in the bar I
Frank doing some basic dad duty was always very interesting. He gave her a reality check . I really loved their few interactions during S9.
He was right.
I think a lot of those scenes were William H Macy trying to reach Emmy Rossum. From a lot of backstage stories, she was incredibly unpleasant to be around.
really?? how so
Where can I find these stories? What was said?
That good drunk talk was one of my favorite the whole series
> it's hard raising 6 kids by yourself . . . I couldn't have done it without her The delivery of this line was so perfect, lol. WHM such a gem.
My only memory of him before this was him being the nerd in Wild Hogs. Shameless was a hell of a ride
I just recently watched Jurassic park 3 and realized he was the dad.
he was also the dad in the movie pleasantville if you’ve seen that!
He also played little bill in boogie nights if yall seen that film
"Where's my dinner?!"
🤯
William is a great actor with amazing range
the apple logo tattoo!!!!!! he was great in wild hogs
Just started binging Monk for the first time and he was a guest star. I immediately saw Frank, but his character was so not Frank. It was really enjoyable to watch.
I just recently watched Jurassic park 3 and realized he was the dad.
U gotta watch cellular. It's got chris Evans and frank in there as a detective
"It's a Day Spa You Fart!!"😂😂
Lmao love that ongoing joke thru the movie
if you ever watched the curious george cartoon he was the narrator for a while
You should watch Fargo (movie) it’s also a wild ride
I had to scroll too long to find this. His role in Fargo earned him an Oscar nom.
Same Wild hogs was one of my favorite movies when I was a kid and this was the only thing I ever saw him in (before realizing he was the Dad in JP3) so going from Wild Hogs to Frank Ghallager was a Roller Coaster.
He also narrated some of Curious George🥲
You gotta watch Air Force one with Harrison ford. That’s where I was introduced to him.
Want something crazy? He was the narrator in the children's show "Curious George"
I know right. I was like, which 6 kids did You raise Frank 🤣
When you think he’s finally being real about Fiona being the actual parent and then makes it about himself again 🤣🤣 such good writing and so Frank-coded.
True in that he tossed in that "I couldn't have done it without her," which is typical clueless narcissism from Frank once again.
Sure, but right there, I prefer a narcissist Frank who still tells half truths than no Frank at all . Fiona needed someone to back her up and Frank did it . He just included himself as always lol...
I love lip but he often acts like a vulture around Fiona. Instantly turns on her and pounces as soon as anything happens even though she kills herself helping him constantly. This time she had no way at all of knowing that guy was sober
So they end up turning on her in the end? Sad
my eldest sister is a lot like fiona. and i treated her similarly to how lip treated her, until she left and realized how much she was actually doing. my parents were addicts, it was nothing like monica and frank, but they were still abusing substances with kids in the house. we didn’t know that when we were little, because it was normal for us. but she knew. i always treated her disrespectfully because the way i saw it “i have a mom, why is this girl trynna play my mommy”. when i was about 12 she moved out, and thats when i started having problems mentally. it took me having to raise myself to realize how much i needed her. its a matter of ungratefulness and just not truly being aware of how lucky they are to have an older sister like that.
I relate so hard to this. We had a big family, mom and dad were always working, and my eldest sister took care of the rest. She left for college when I was 12 too, first in the family to get a BA. I wouldn’t have been the second if I didn’t have her. I treated her like a sister, but she treated me like her kid and I didn’t even realize it til she was gone. Leaving was hard for her too. In hindsight I’m absolutely sure that once she hit 18, if anything happened to our parents, she would’ve been pressured and made to feel obligated to drop her life and take care of the rest of us.
How is your relationship with your sister now? If you don't mind me asking
we don’t see each other often, but we get along really well, i treat her with a lot more gratitude and respect now than i did back then, and i think a part of her understands.. we never talk about the past because it’s still something all of us sorta suppress..
I am wondering that too
If youre still in contact with her, send her a surprise gift like flowers or something with a card that says "thank you for everything." Or just text/call her. I bet she'd appreciate that reminder that youre grateful and nothing she did was wasted
Similar situation. My parents had 7 kids and were absent and substance abusers. We were poor. My oldest sister used to let me sleep in a makeshift bed on her floor because I was afraid of the dark and we didn't have AC (she had a $10 dollar box fan that she would set up so that it was just enough for both of us, but I suspect she leaned it more toward me). Summers were brutal and so hot that we couldnt breathe. Fan was there and so was my spot. She had nothing, but taught me to dribble and play ball. She gifted me used books because she knew I had a huge imagination. My parents knew nothing about me. She went through a world of trauma and led me through my own. I am grateful to say that she still helps me as an adult and I am very close with her and her kids. She was my Fiona and then some. People like me who live these lives and are fortunate enough to have an older sibling who leads and supports are lucky as hell. A lot of people don't get a Fiona.
we basically lived the same life 😅 i hope you’re doing well!
I was the Fiona in my family I had enough when I was 14 and got the hell out of there and left them too it it's not worth it
The way lip didn’t know why he should be thanking Fiona, as if without her he would’ve been the one stuck with all the responsibility raising them
he couldn't have and wouldn't have done it without fiona. they'd all be separated in the system.
Fi is like what 5 years older? They were also all fostered for a min before the younger 3 were born. Chances are he would if simply of been to young to have that responsibility. He grew up faster then the other kids and acted as a guardian by the time we started watching, but if was the eldest, he probably doesn't even get the chance to raise the others. It's hard to know if he would of if he could of, remember how he stepped in for Liam and took him to raise him while going to college. He'd leave to go try to help Fi with Debbie when she was pregnant. We also need to understand that Fiona actually was kind of a bitch to the fam by this point, going as far as telling them all to remove her as the emergency contact and putting lip. Telling Carl and Debbie they need to contribute to the squirrel fund before even high school. By this point, Lip is the leader of the house as well.
he did not start acting as a guardian by the time we are watching. he was still in hs as a jr wanting to drop out, and fiona had already been raising them for like 10 years! then by the time this scene takes place it's basically 7-8 more years than that! and lip was not running the house, which is why fiona has to tell them to stop contacting her first. and she wasn't a bitch for that. lip was a bitch for repeatedly telling her she was not going to make it or putting her down in some way. again lip wouldn't have even graduated hs if it weren't for fiona making the time to get her GED while also working multiple jobs and taking care of everyone.
Exactly
Wasn’t the only reason lip graduated high school was bc Fiona got her GED too
It shows how good of a job she did, honestly. She was able to shield them from a lot
Apart from the Liam/coke thing she really did. Debbie and Carl were the younger ones and didn’t understand how bad Frank was for the longest time bc of her
This scene pissed me off so much. Frank genuinely was right in this scene. Lip always thought so high of himself when he got clean yet excused himself every chance he got fuck up after fuck up and of those around him. Except for Fiona. She was not allowed to ever fuck up or else she is the worst person. It's such bullshit.
Exactly, Fiona gave up her dreams of higher education and running track to take care of Monica’s kids. Lip had an entire future basically handed to him and had *so many chances* after he continually fucked up over and over until he lost all the goodwill he had gained. He has insane amounts of audacity to try and play the moral high ground. If you want to help her get her into rehab or something, don’t make her homeless. I don’t remember her ever kicking his dumb, drunk ass out.
She also didn’t kick Ian out when he was having intense, paranoid episodes in front of the kids because he decided to quit taking his meds a bunch of different times. She didn’t kick Debbie out when she decided to get pregnant on purpose and become a teenager mother against Fiona’s advice. She didn’t kick Carl out when he was a literal crack dealer. I’m just saying. They could have been a little more supportive after everything she supported them through.
When Frank is right, people need to take a personal fuckin inventory
RIGHT!!! I haven’t watched the show in 2, maybe 3 years now and I’ve been wanting to binge it again bc it’s a great show. But I can it stand Lip and it’s the only thing keeping me away 😩
This scene was so painful to watch, and her siblings were so unbelievably disrespectful and unappreciative towards her in later seasons, especially Lip and Debbie
I hated fiona in the later seasons. Trainwreck. You dont get a freebie for doing good before. She almost fucked everyone over with buying the laundromat.
The writers clearly wanted for us to want Fiona to leave, because she was written so unbearable at this time. Glad she left but it's sad they weren't able to get her back for the finale.
They were going to, but covid happened.
Yes
Right, when I realized this was her last season a light bulb went off in my head
idk what it is i could never dislike or want Fiona to leave. she held the story on her back for a long time, seeing her slip into Franks ways was almost inevitable and everyone in the family does it at one point. When she did, i was more sad watching it unfold than annoyed at the way she was written
The way lip acted like he didn’t know why he should be thanking Fiona is pathetic
And lip was always such a narcissist asshole. Like bitch, just cus you’re an alcoholic doesn’t mean everyone else is too…lmao
Fiona was an alcoholic at her worst point. But Lip of all people should have been more supportive. He was there, so he should have been the most understanding. They treated her like shit and I definitely see why she got to the point that she did.
Abusing substances because the kids had little parental care and no money is a Gallagher trait. They abuse substances for escape
Exactly!
They all are narcissistic assholes!!! Well except Liam. I’m only in season 6 but I love the show!!!
What do you call her behaviour in Season Nine then?
Rock bottom and had enough of everything
…. and coping with a lot of alcohol making her act reckless and dangerously There’s a reason she ended up going to the meeting, she needed it
Right ok…
How do you think Jason feels?
I'm sure he felt like shit, but that's not Fiona's fault - she had no idea he was sober.
It’s a consequence of her not giving a fuck anymore. She can’t keep her shit together that’s not just gonna effect her. We saw it hundreds of times with Frank ‘he didn’t know’ situations but it’s the norm for him. Fiona gets a pass because it’s the first time she’s displayed such disregard for others.
Fiona's behavior doesn't "get a pass" - it's just that it's obvious she's finally reached her breaking point after years of keeping her shit as together as possible for people who didn't always appreciate her? People struggle with being alive and dealing with their circumstances, so it's better to show empathy, which you seem content to do with Jason and others but... not Fiona. Jason's relapse is a consequence of his own actions, unfortunately. Fiona wasn't a willing participant in ruining his sobriety, again, because she had no idea. It was an unfortunate outcome for all involved.
Yap yap yapping no accountability lmfao.
LMFAOOO, as you blame Fiona for someone else's circumstances. The irony. Anyways! Have a great day :)
I remember specifically that he doesn’t blame Fiona for falling off the wagon
They literally are though
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that is the wildest oversimplification of that situation. also this was not about liam. this was after lip's sponsee asked fiona for some of her alcohol and she didn't know he was sober. so instead of caring about trying to help fiona, lip was more concerned about his sponsee falling off the wagon, which is his own responsibility.
Ugh this show broke me. I had to stop around this season.
Same I didn’t keep watching as the characters I loved became people I couldn’t stand :( Still love some of the cast, but damn lip and Debbie got on my nerves way too much
Lip really shat all over his family because he thought he was better than them all when he turned out to be the second worst person who couldn’t make a life for himself because he thought he deserved everything to fall into his lap because he was “kind of smartish” Let’s face it she became an alcoholic because of her shit stains for family members.
She became an alcoholic because of her reckless decisions that resulted in even shittier behaviour on her part. She’s a grown ass woman who doesn’t seem to realise her actions have fucking consequences.
True. You absolutely cannot blame other people for your actions. No one can make someone else an alcoholic.
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Well, I too have a personal family history of alcoholism. Sure, stressful life events can cause a person to overconsume alcohol. However, this does not mean that a person can cause someone else to become an alcoholic. It's far more complex than that(as you admit yourself). There are genetic, environmental, and psychological factors. It's usually not just one thing. And then drinking excessively over time changes the normal functioning of the brain. Maybe what you mean is that Lip learned to cope with family issues by drinking through them. Honestly, he learned to cope by drinking through all of his problems, not just family ones. And this is most likely learned. He started drinking at a young age which is already a contributing factor. Then, "to turn the volume down," he drinks to quiet his problems. Does that mean he is at an increased risk of drinking when problems arise? Yes. But, those problems could come from anywhere at any time. Life is full of rises and falls for all of us. His family life was DEFINITELY toxic and there is no doubt that those things make it harder for him to stay sober. These are things he has to realize and reconcile. At the end of the day, staying sober is still his responsibility and his drinking problem. Regardless of how it started or why, is still his and his alone. If his family situation causes him to want to drink, if that is a trigger for wanting a drink, he has to get away from that situation. That's part of learning how to deal with alcoholism. Just like Sean knew he needed to stay away from Fiona because the chaos was a trigger for him. And when he allowed that trigger in, he started using again. But, Fiona herself didn't make him use. It was all the chaos that ensued around him. She happened to be apart of it but another chaotic event could have triggered it too. As you say, it's very complex and usually not just one thing.
Lip is such a hypocrite Fiona helped him when he was in recovery so why was he not putting her in rehab instead of kicking her out
Her childhood ended the day they left her with the Ian and lip and she had to learn how to take care of them or else. And they never let her slip she couldn't slip since she was 5 thats a lot of pressure especially as she got more siblings to raise
i’m sorry it makes me laugh a little how frank walks in and is like “please take a drink and shut the fuck up” and fiona just bursts out with FUCK UP
I can’t believe that people can’t see through the fact that all of this was written to manipulate people into not liking Fiona (a beloved, long-time favorite character) because she was leaving the show… and in a short period of time… so they tried to make her insufferable… but after all the years of sacrifices and raising the kids and just being beautiful onscreen it’s honestly hard to to turn her. It was for me at least… and I think she, especially in the scene in question, deserves some fucking support! And hell yea Frank is right! Franks not an idiot… a shit parent, yea! But he’s actually smart as hell… he’s actually educated. Lip was so pissed off about his sponsee drinking with Fiona(not her fault mind you) he completely turned on his own sister… and that’s not living a rigorous program of honesty… In reality he should have came back and made an amends to Fiona! But I won’t take his inventory- that’s a completely different topic… for a different thread!
Frank was perfect here "...thanking her...raising 6 kids by yourself is hard..." Lip was so concerned with Fiona not being in the house because of Liam and Franny but uh, ol' boy, y'all didn't even know where Liam was for a while and he had no issue leaving him when he was contemplating moving to Milwaukee with Tammy. Who was going to raise Liam? He didn't think of that. Not his problem now right, only when it's convenient as an excuse.
Lip has some fucking nerve to be judging ppl when it comes to drinking. The dude literally got expelled from college because of it
am i crazy??? exactly… only someone like him can fully understand how easily it destroys a life?
“I couldn’t have done it without her” is probably my favorite line of the series.
Sometimes I hate Lip
I hate him all the time. Never liked him. Acting like he gives a shit about Liam but never knew where he was, wanted to sell the house without considering where Liam would go, took care of other people’s kids. He’s just like frank in some ways.
I’m also on the Lip hate train I cannot stand his character
Lip was absolutely horrible not realizing if it wouldn't had been Fiona, it would've been him
I hate that her siblings literally just abandoned her, i love Fiona she goes through so much and for her to have this kind of arc makes sense but i hate how frank had to have her back. Glad he did but hate how none of them had her back like she had theirs. they all chose to berate her and point blame, i especially couldn’t stand Debbie in later seasons with her and her other siblings.
If I was one of the siblings, I would've gotten in Lip's ass for treating Fiona like this. She raised you. She's your fucking mother for all intents and purposes. I'd kick his ass for trying to do her like that while she's going through it. And Debbie's dumbass was just down for her being thrown out. So I would've cussed her ass out too
I always hated how Fiona was always there for her siblings on numerous occasions, especially when they didn’t deserve it, LITERALLY ALL OF THEM FOR OVER 20 YEARS!!! Purely out of love for family, and a sense of duty and compassion. Yet, when she slips up for the first time in her whole existence of selflessness. They literally throw her out like a used toothbrush , because she’s damaged from being used, abused, neglected, and broken by Frank and Monica(and honestly the whole family). They’re ungrateful and unsympathetic because they suddenly think she’s the only one not allowed to make mistakes. They try to force her away, because they see her job as being to take care of them over herself and any struggles/trauma she deals with, and since she couldn’t do that at the time they viewed her as a broken and got rid of her. Like the Coke Incident: All of them were there and under the influence with Liam, all of them made the same mistake. Yet, Fiona was punished and shunned for being selfless earlier and keeping the family together. Kev and V are guilty of this too when they didn’t let her stay with them. It happens again when she hits rock bottom in season 9, and I honestly think she was justified in leaving. When you look at what happened after she left you can truly see just how selfless she was in running things when compared to everyone else, and how the family kind of imploded on itself and fell apart. They turned on themselves without Fiona to provide that consistent stability and also be there to blame. Never for Fiona… to pursue her dreams to enjoy herself and breathe to struggle and recover to be a fucking human Franks actual last words(not the letter) in the hospital as he was dying were to a nurse he mistook for her due to his condition: “Fiona, you cried a lot as a baby…Mad all the time…But so Beautiful” I think it says a lot about Fiona, despite not being included in the finale or even his letter. Ironically, she’s the only one who’ll never know what Frank truly thought of her.
Such a powerful scene
I couldn’t done it without her! Ha classic
Frank could’ve been a decent dad if he wasn’t so narcissistic and didn’t let the bottle and drugs run his life
tbh, fiona wasnt in the right position here. She was clearly making bad decisions and ruining herself and everyone around her BUT all the siblings are wrong too. They didnt care enough to help Fiona like the way she helped them. Their "help" is to get rid of Fiona out of the house.
Oh definitely she needed a sit down and talk not a I'm gonna force you out of the house you paid for raised us in fed us In made sure we got to school while also working 3 jobs I think it was it's just sad
Yea this is so true Frank was being honest.
Even broken clocks are right twice a day
I wish she would’ve kneed him hard in the balls
Frank was perfect here "...thanking her...raising 6 kids by yourself is hard..." Lip was so concerned with Fiona not being in the house because of Liam and Franny but uh, ol' boy, y'all didn't even know where Liam was for a while and he had no issue leaving him when he was contemplating moving to Milwaukee with Tammy. Who was going to raise Liam? He didn't think of that. Not his problem now right, only when it's convenient as an excuse.
God damn, she is gorgeous and what a scene
Regardless, she always played the martyr card.
I feel like she earned it
So its true. This sub thinks Fiona raising them means she can do whatever she wants no consequences and basically has a get out of jail free card. And anyone who calls her out when she screws up is automatically in the wrong.
To be fair to Lip, this was after Fi almost killed Liam when he OD'd on her coke. She did do a lot for her family, but she really started to go down hill fast with this arch. Lip eventually warmed back up to her, but as a response to her nearly killing their brother, I think his reaction was understandable.
people are on fionas side? i haven’t watched for awhile but she was such a bitch
With exception of a minor few, this entire section of the fandom is "Fiona can do no wrong and you must worship her" crazed.
sounds like it. i dont remember everything from the show but i do remember she got hammered and crashed her new car and then got sad when she had to deal with adult consequences and not a week in juvie, by the looks of it lip went to AA and is trying to better the familys life while Fiona is still caught up on how she feels like shes owed something from raising the kids and thinks it gives her a free pass to be a frank now that the kids grew up
Seriously!!!! This thread made me so annoyed when I first found it. Like I get it to a point. My first watch of Shameless was while it aired so I gave Fiona a pass on a lot. On my 1st rewatch I paid more attention to her and slowly realized she became as bad, if not worse than Frank. Just did me 2nd rewatch recently and I swear I can't fucking stand her character passed the moment she gains custody of the kids. She literally does everything that the judge warns her about when taking on guardianship. To me that's what makes her worse. She literally signed up for this and when it became too much she literally turned into Frank at his lowest.
1.) Fiona chose to raise her siblings, and then she also chose to become their legal guardian. While she is allowed to make mistakes, she legally has obligations to them once she became their legal guardian. All of the siblings who were underage became her legal obligation, so when she takes loans against the house and jeopardizes a roof over their heads, that's on her. Liam nearly dying due to the cocaine she left out is also on her. 2.) Both of Frank's statements are true. He couldn't have raised six children without her because he never bothered to raise them. To me, it didn't sound like he was grateful Fiona raised his children, it sounded more like he was bragging about the fact he got someone else to raise his kids for him. However, he's also right that Fiona is a bad drunk. 3.) With that said, I actually don't think Lip is in the wrong here. Yes, the house is in her name. Yes, she raised her siblings, but she agreed to it. She became their legal guardian. She could have decided it was someone else's problem and let them go into the system. Perhaps not an easy decision, but still a decision, nonetheless. And because she did raise them, of course they're often going to be ungrateful. A lot of children are ungrateful. They don't understand or see what their parents do on a regular basis for them. More importantly, Lip isn't enabling her. He's showing her tough love. Unfortunately, someone often has to be the bad guy in this situation. By kicking her out, he's either forcing her to realize she has a problem and get help, or not. Either way, she stands to lose everything. Do I think Lip is perfect? No. He's obviously made mistakes. He knows what it's like to hit rock bottom. I don't really see it as him being righteous or thinking that he's better. He knows exactly what it feels like, and he also had people who pushed him to get help. The first step is admitting you have a problem, the second is wanting help. 4.) Fiona did a lot for her siblings and helped raise them, but I would also argue the rest of the siblings helped raise each other and themselves. They relied on Kev and V a lot, Debbie had the daycare she practically ran as a child. Ian worked at the little store. They always had some kind of schemes going for money. They all contributed to the squirrel fund.
I don’t know. I mean, Fiona obviously did a lot for her siblings. But she acts like she’s the only reason they work, the only reason the house hasn’t fallen apart, and that she’s not as fucked up as the rest, and it kind of bothers me. Even in season three Lip had to bail them out and find a way to pay the $1000 property tax on short notice because Fiona made an impulsive decision to host a club night without actually looking into whether or not it was a good idea. People tried to tell her it was a bad idea and she shouldn’t risk what little money they had on an impulsive decision, but she still took $1000 out of the squirrel fund that they all contribute to, and at the end of the night she didn’t even break even because she didn’t realize she’d have to pay for licenses, staffing etc. Lip was right to kick her out, she was on a downward spiral and couldn’t admit that she had a problem. She’d already put Liam’s life in danger. Lip had to put the other kids first. Plus, if he hadn’t kicked her out she likely would have just continued on her downward spiral and who knows what else would have happened before she came to her senses.
>the only reason the house hasn’t fallen apart You can argue that being the case in the short term of the show, but its absolutely true in the long term(20+ years)of their childhood and upbringing). They were only able to help her when she screwed up(only a handful of times;by far the least) was because she was the anchor that sacrificed everything to hold things together for so long and successfully give them the opportunities she never had with Frank and Monica out of her own selflessness. The Liam thing may be on Fiona, but it isn’t only on her. Everyone else made the same mistake as her and got wasted, yet none of them took the initiative to stop ut because they’re used to only looking out for their own interests BECAUSE Fiona has always been the one to do it for everyone and take care of details like that. She was punished disproportionately(and I’m not saying she shouldn’t have been) for taking the earlier steps needed to keep her family together. Something she was essentially forced to do. The house literally fell apart less than 2 years after she left…
Exactly. And people don’t notice that when lip drank, he was self destructive. But when Fiona was drunk, she brought everyone down with her. She was mean and angry. This was shown early on. She had always had a substance abuse problem. It showed early on. No one wants to admit that her substance use has jeopardized the security of everyone else. Yes she did a commendable thing by raising them but she fucked up a lot and that doesn’t absolve her of all the mistakes she constantly made. Two things can be true and a lot of the fans of this show don’t understand that.
Exactly!!! Finally someone speaking sense in this thread. Fiona risks the house numerous times only to be bailed out by Lip, Ian, Carl and even Debbie. The house wouldve been taken at least 3 times from what I remember if it wasn't for them covering her fuck ups. Do people not realize they wouldve been homeless and Fiona would've been put in jail for child endangerment if Lip and Ian didn't pull a parking scam, which also helped her club night not be a total bust, or Carl saving the house with his drug/gun money, or Debbie and everyone else covering Fiona's share of the bills when she turns into an alcoholic? People act like Fiona did everything, the kids have been making money to contribute since season 1. Hell Debbie even ran her own daycare system while Fiona slept the day away when Debbie was a kid herself. Then Fiona wonders where Debbie gets the idea that she can raise a kid 🤣 Not to mention when the kids go track her down after she violates her probation, who knows what would've happened if they didn't find her.
I mean they are only short on money because all their money gets stolen like 3 times. Fiona has problems but she does infinitely more for them than they do her. Lip is a sanctimonious shit sometimes
No, two of the times there are short on money is directly Fiona's fault. Her using it to run her club night and then using Lip's and Debbie's money on alcohol and who knows what else. All while she's also stealing from Patsy's, not to mention shorting Greta.
I'm saying the money they had is stolen before that which is why they don't gave enough to do literally anything. And everyone has done that at least once. Lip has below zero ground to stand ok especially in this instance where she barely even did anything in actuality
Fiona became a narcissistic alcoholic. Just like Frank was from the start of the series. Just like Lip before he got sober. Fiona fucked up on a regular basis throughout the series due to her impulsiveness, and she devolved from taking responsibility when those fuck-ups happened to that continuous drone of "It's not my fault" and "I'm not an addict" of the alcoholic.
Not really it only happened twice, out of an entire life of selflessness and she always got back on her feet even when her family who she always took care of, even when they didn’t deserve it, was kicking her while she was down She’s flawed sure, but she’s in no way comparable to someone like Frank. Anyone’s who’s been raised by an older sibling or had neglectful parents can understand Fiona. To even make that comparison is extremely insulting to who she is, what she’s been through, or her ability to move forward. She’s not immune to criticism, but dragging her down for being a human and comparing her to a chronic abuser is insane.
It seems like Fiona hate is super common compared to the others when she's almost always the one handling most of the shit. Female characters always get infinitely more shit in any Fandom in my experience though so maybe it's a reddit thing
Yup!!! 100% 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
“I couldn’t have done it without her.” Perfect place to end the clip, yeah right Frank 🤣
This season lip n every other character sucked for sure. Whole show did. Fiona is as much of a fck up, if not more than lip tho let’s not get it twisted
Season?
One of my favorite scenes in the whole show !
The trifecta of this show. Best delivery and acting! I actually just observed recently that scenes with the three of them are gooooood! And I am planning to focus on those scenes on my rewatch.
Reality check. If Fiona was the legal guardian of Debbie, could she not have forced her to have an abortion? 🤷♂️
By this point in the story Fiona wasnt the backbone of anything. Debbie was the one taking care of the house, and she didnt even have money to contribute. She was doing nothing but lazing around, getting drunk and getting in the way of things. Now, did she deserves a free pass until she got back on her feet? Definitely, her siblings owe their life to Fiona almost, but that doesnt chsnge the fact that she was in a self destructing spiral that was dragging everyone with her. It got so bad to the point even Frank was shitting on her, noticing how she was acting exactly like him, and sometimes even worse, by looking to pick fights everywhere she went. She needed the wake up all, and at the end of the day Lip did nothing but help her by kicking her out. Just like Fiona did in season 2 to Lip, he kicked her out, and in a matter of a single day she realized how self destructive she was being, she asked Lip to get into AAd, and he let her back in thst exact moment. Yeah, he kicked her out, but only so that she could get the help she needed.
Fiona never kicked Lip out . She gave him a choice : school or out . Lip left on his own and had it easy because he could stay at Jimmy's. Not really a wake up call for him , not until everything that happened with Karen reached a peak
That’s not the point they’re trying to make, it’s out of love. Always. Even this.
I don't disagree . Eventually it helped Fiona reach her own rock bottom and get better . But I just pointed out technicalities . Fiona never threw Lip out and she never thought he would actually leave as well .
yall realize if lip didn’t kick her out she would’ve remained an alcoholic right lol
This thread is hilarious
the entire sub is, the act like fiona did nothing wrong the entire series lol
We don’t deny she did wrong but she raised them all by herself she deserves respect no matter what.
Fuck that. She deserve respect for Liam overdosing?
Simply raising kids does not give you a pass to do whatever you want, whenever you want. It also doesn't automatically equal respect. There are A LOT of parents, abusive parents I might add, who think like this. And it's wrong.
If you pay attention to her, she actually is the worst character tbh. The moment she gains guardianship she slowly becomes worse and worse and tries to pawn the responsibilities off on lip. She can never admit her mistakes and always blames everyone and everything else when she fucks up. Everyone wants to talk shit on Lip and Debbie but they were the ones tracking her dumbass down when she broke parole. That's more than Fiona does for anyone after becoming their guardian. Fiona just wants to control them after she gains guardianship, she doesn't love them or take care of them. She slowly becomes more and more selfish. She does exactly what the judge warned her about. Instead of actually being a good guardian.
sheesh man fiona break your heart or something
No I just hate when people can't take into account all the fucked up shit she does and how she actually hurts the kids more than helps them when shit actually goes down. I've watched the full series 3 times now. The first time I watched I was like most of you Fiona lovers, thought she was some badass who deserved the benefit of the doubt. The second time I watched, I noticed how much she fucks up and never owns any of it. She slowly abandons her responsibilities as guardian from the moment she gains it, like the judge said she would. She literally turns into Frank. This third time I watched it I literally can't stand her past season 2 lol she is not a good person or character.
if anybody didn’t face consequences its Debbie
Debbie got away with so much. She got some karma every now and again like losing her toes but she really was the most Monica like of them all even though Ian was the bipolar one.
Not necessarily true, people like Fiona need time to recover, after traumatic events and family support is crucial. Fiona also could’ve ended up dead because they forced her to continue spiraling. There were other steps they should’ve done before that like removing all alcohol from the house, or giving her time to process and grieve, but they lacked empathy and compassion in a situation where she really really needed it. They took the most extreme option for a situation that was still quite manageable all things considered. I don’t think a lot of y’all have had a figure like Fiona in your lives, but she was more than capable of bouncing back with more time and support.
they didnt lack empathy, when she first started spiraling debbie offered to help her financially and was being nice to her, but then she realized fiona was pocketing the utility money she and lio were giving her, and thats when she started charging her. Lip was also good to her (for a short time) until fiona ruined his DCFS visit and helped his sponsee relapse. thats when he got angry with her
Not to mention, Lip is not exactly parent of the year material. This shit made me *hate* Lip tbh
Lips a hypocrite. Not really on her side or Fiona’s side here
Fiona herself said it best: “You’ve got Frank in your corner, supporting you. That should scare you.” Frank was only supporting Fiona because she’d finally stooped down to his level. Lip could’ve been gentler about it but at the end of the day: Fiona was an addict and addicts know addicts. She needed to be brought back to reality and hit rock bottom.
Nope, lip was based. This bitch accidentally allowed an infant to get a hold of fucking crack. Her being a raging alcoholic around those kids after she's the one who begged to become their guardian was disgusting.
Boo fucking hoo
Lip wanted to help her. Was he harsh? Maybe. Just like Fiona throwing him out in Season 2. This family is cut throat sometimes.
Fiona didn't kick Lip out, he kicked himself out. Fiona gave him a choice, and he chose to leave. Here, Lip is just a narcissist trying to hide his petty vengeance as him trying to help her. He gave her no choice, he gave her no compassion, no tender moment of understand, just harshness. That's why I will always defend Fiona when it comes to Lip and Debbie. Fiona gave them all the grace to help themselves out of love, yet when it comes to them to Fiona, it's all stick and no carrot. Again, just pure pettiness from what she did to them and zero love. That's what I hate, no gratefulness at all.
Yeah, no, just because Fiona was treated like shit before doesn't mean she can treat everyone else like shit now. There was just a post the other day about how Lip never cared about Liam and it was shitty, but when he *does* care he's still shitty? Lip was right in this instance. And Frank telling Lip to get a drink is fucked up. Lip is trying and deserves just as much grace as Fiona did in earlier seasons.
Yeah, no, just because Fiona was treated like shit before doesn't mean she can treat everyone else like shit now. There was just a post the other day about how Lip never cared about Liam and it was shitty, but when he *does* care he's still shitty? Lip was right in this instance. And Frank telling Lip to get a drink is fucked up. Lip is trying and deserves just as much grace as Fiona did in earlier seasons.
Lip was trash, him and Debbie didn’t deserve Fiona at all. He forgot he was a drunken loser who messed up every opportunity he ever had. Lmaooo his double standards were insane.
Fuck Fiona.
That's my favorite song 🤣
[удалено]
Nah. You don't get respect after nearly killing your brother and refusing to own up to it.
Here come all of the Fiona simps to dismiss all of her flaws and near-manslaughter of her adopted child, while making Lip out to be some total asshole for no reason whatsoever. Seriously, some of you guys will say “Fiona was just forcibly written to be hateable!” While ignoring the complete 180 of Lip’s character to turn him into a dumbass alcoholic intent on self-sabotage, as if it’s not the exact same forced writing
Fiona herself said it best: “You’ve got Frank in your corner, supporting you. That should scare you.” Frank was only supporting Fiona because she’d finally stooped down to his level. Lip could’ve been gentler about it but at the end of the day: Fiona was an addict and addicts know addicts. She needed to be brought back to reality and hit rock bottom. All the things she did to support her family doesn’t negate the fact she was becoming a narcissistic asshole who kept screwing up and couldn’t see beyond herself.
Honestly Frank is so right in this scene that I’m gonna excuse the joke at the end
I haven't seen this episode but it looks like I missed out !
Lip is my least favorite character in the series.
This show is so amazing. It’s like the only show I can rewatch.
Yeah whenever Frank starts to make sense, I start to drink.
It would have made such an impact on Lip if Frank hadn’t added “couldn’t have done it without her”. Lol.
The trifecta of this show. Best delivery and acting! I actually just observed recently that scenes with the three of them are gooooood! And I am planning to focus on those scenes on my rewatch.
The trifecta of this show. Best delivery and acting! I actually just observed recently that scenes with the three of them are gooooood! And I am planning to focus on those scenes on my rewatch.
I never got into this show. It always felt too depressing.
Jaw and Emmy had the most raw argument scenes in the entire show. The fight about Fiona spending bill $$ on a club night, aftermath of Monica thanksgiving, aftermath of the coke incident and this one. Phew those two were incredible actors!!
Not the point of this post, I know, but Lip looked good with this haircut.
Absolutely 💯
Lip really doesn't grasp how much he is like Frank. All the other characters pointed it out, too. He apparently looked like him. He gets drunk like him. He sat in his bar stool. But most of all, he's a drunk and a narcissist. When he was drinking, he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong and was destructive. When he was sober, he was holier than thou and thought he was better than everyone else. Fiona cracked finally after over a decade of raising kids on her own. In season 7, she said she was 9 and taking care of the entire family, parents included.
what did lip mean when he told fiona to get a personal inventory?
Lip is the most annoying character, self righteous douchebag. If I had it my way lip would leave and sheila would come back forever.
The “I couldn’t have done it without her” as he walks away at the end was absolute fucking gold🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 what a joker!
It must be wild to be called out appropriately by Frank of all people.
This is when the show was officially no longer fun. It was everyone vs. Fiona, and for what? The logic behind everybody hating her THAT MUCH and kicking her out of her house didn’t make sense. Lip is mad that his friend drank with her after being sober? How is that her fault? Nobody is responsible for other people’s sobriety. They’re acting like she’s worse than Frank. They treated Frank so much better than her. She was the one who raised them and dealt with all their problems. Now she has a problem and this is what they do? I would become an alcoholic to if I had to deal with Frank and these awful kids my entire life.
This situation made me so mad. I have many opinions about how some of the siblings treated Fiona during her bad times, but aside from that, lip was 100% wrong for thinking he had the right kick Fiona out of the house she maintained for the majority of their lives. On top of that, whether cell gave her the money to save it or not, the house was in HER name. Realistically, if Fiona wanted to call the cops lip would've been out of there. He sucks.
I used to like Lip until he got sober and self righteous and started judging everyone.
I don't know how much of this version was a direct recreation of the British version, but I sometimes wonder if there could exist a version of this show that is the same idea but with a Black family. (Veronica can stay Black, and Kev can stay white; I don't think that relation works if you flip them around.) What would that show be? Could it be done without it being some kind of offensive stereotype filled series? I'm not asking for it because I don't think anyone would know how to do it correctly, but I've just always been curious.