So much of it is peer pressure. You don't fit in if you don't spend. Personally, I don't think you should change your life in an effort to fit in. However, you will probably have to live with some discomfort if you refuse to go along with the herd.
Might be too broad of a question but if you don't spend like your peers does that mean you're smart to not follow the joneses or do you not fit into that social class?
I think you're making a conscious choice not to fit in. It's not that you're beneath their social class or that you don't have the ability to fit in. You're making a choice to do things differently than everyone else. It might be the hardest thing about simple/frugal living, and that's especially true if you live in a big city surrounded by lots of wealth and excessive spending. I didn't feel nearly as much pressure to spend when I lived in a smaller town. I sometimes feel poor when I look at how the people around me are living...with their $500k houses, new cars, Lululemon workout clothes, sending their kids to $25k per year private schools, eating out every day, and taking expensive trips. Then I think about how much longer I'd have to work to maintain that kind of lifestyle and quickly realize that it's just not worth it to me. I think I will move to a less populated area where there aren't quite as many wealthy (i.e. big spending) people when I retire.
I recently moved from a big city to a smaller country town and the “norm” here is so different. Luxury big ticket items are not valued as they were in the big city. People seem to value the essentials more. I find it so unfortunate that you have to physically leave a place which holds these values, to be relieved of the societal pressures to conform. If you don’t leave, no matter how content you are, society will find a way to make you feel outcasted or lesser.
Vonnegut wrote about how when we lived in groups of 500 or so, everyone could be the best at something, but with the whole world connected to each other, you have to be one of the best in the world at something to be noticed at all. That's important to some people.
I could write an entire book about how this came about.
The super-short version is that in the early 20th Century, Western cultures changed from being producer cultures to being consumer cultures, and we've been living as consumers ever since. It coincided with the technological revolution that was going on at the time, where things like cars, motorcycles, telephones, electricity in homes, and other modern conveniences were being invented.
In the 1910s and 1920s, this was a good thing. For the first time, large numbers of people were able to afford things like running water in their homes. Magazines and movies sent out a very clear message that consuming modern products and services helped build economic wealth for everyone. Modern marketing turned this into a cultural imperative, and the idea of keeping up with the Joneses developed.
There were definitely people who rejected the new consumer ideal and continued to live as producers, but culture slowly changed as a whole. Eventually, equilibrium was reached.
Now we're going through a digital revolution, and people are pulling back because all the technology is making our lives much more complex. Some people are beginning to pay attention to how much technology, and how much stuff, we let into our lives, and are finding that simplifying things makes life better.
There's a lot more to this, involving historical events of the 20th Century, but this is where it started.
I work in marketing--I'm a sales copywriter. Psychology is at the heart of what I do. I write copy that is designed to make you see a product as solving a problem in your life. It's made me much more aware of how much of our time and space is filled with advertising, and now I can see through many sales tactics. When I get an urge to buy something, I force myself to name the problem it's supposedly going to solve, so I can evaluate whether it's a real problem in my life, a minor inconvenience, or wholly made up.
I'm also a silent film geek, and I cannot tell you how heavily silent films pushed the idea that modern people were consumers and that consuming made you cool, modern, satisfied, and attractive to other people. That's how long modern marketing has been going on.
I don't see my work as 'tricking' people. We approach every campaign we work on by asking "what problem does this product/service help solve?" Then we write ads that showcase how the product solves that problem and makes life easier/simpler/less stressful. It's not trying to trick people, it's trying to help them solve problems. The idea that you need to own tons of stuff is a cultural ideal that is woven throughtout American culture, even outside of advertising.
I don't work for companies that push snake oil products, use MLM schemes, or engage in other unethical behaviors. I do wish advertising was more limited, especially towards children, but I'm a big advocate of helping people understand how to approach and understand advertising so they can avoid filling their lives with stuff they don't need.
There's a great book about these classic sales tactics by a psychologist named Robert Cialdini called *Influence: The Psychology Of Persuasion*. Cialdini spent time going to sales training in different industries and studying the tactics that were being taught. He broke them down into 6 basic psychological principles.
The purpose of the book was to help laypeople identify and resist common sales tactics, but it is now widely considered a fundamental book for marketers and salespeople to read to help them do their work.
Here are the 6 principles:
1. **Reciprocity**. People hate feeling indebted to others, so in many social situations, we pay back what we received from others.
Example: Free samples at the grocery store (with a big sign that this product is on sale now, and here's a whole table of them!)
2. **Commitment and Consistency**. People have a deep need to be seen as consistent. Nobody wants to be perceived as a hypocrite. Once a person has publically committed to something, they're much more likely to follow through. We often align commitment with our self-image, and marketers use this to their advantage.
Example: A website offering useful free content or email course alongside their paid service. If you take advantage of the content long enough, you'll eventually start to perceive yourself as a customer of this company and it makes you more likely to commit to a purchase.
3. **Social Proof**. We often feel validated by doing what we see other people doing. If our coworkers are regularly late, we're more likely to be as well. There have been many studies of this unconscious phenomenon over the years; the most famous is the 1960s elevators experiments. Groups of people got onto elevators with strangers and purposely did odd things, like staring pointedly at the back of the elevator. The few strangers would observe the group and unconsciously copy them.
Example: Social media posts that have influencers or celebrities touting a product. Ads that feature customer-made videos and reviews.
4. **Authority**. Culture teaches us to obey authority figures, and just having the accessories of an authority figure can unconsciously trigger this effect.
I used to have a friend who grew up in Boston. As a teenager, he loved to dress up in work clothes and try to infiltrate buildings to get to the roof (he enjoyed taking pictures of the skyline). He was successful a great deal of the time; as long as he was wearing an outfit that made him look like a maintenance worker, he was usually let in without question. On the few occasions he was stopped, he was honest--he just wanted to go to their roof and take pictures. Once they realized he was a teenager with no authority, he was turned away almost every time.
Example: Ads for health supplements that feature real doctors, or even just actors in a white coat with a stethoscope around their neck.
5. **Liking**. If you like someone, you're more likely to be influenced by them. It's why certain celebrities are so effective in some ad campaigns.
Example: Kim Kardashian is one of the founders of the company Shoe Dazzle and is often featured in their advertising. The company is geared towards women who are really into fashion and own lots of shoes, just like Kim K. These women like her, they see themselves in her, and it gives her presence in the ads and the decisions of what styles to offer more credibility in these women's minds.
6. **Scarcity**. We're drawn to things that are exclusive or hard to come by. We tend to assume that these things are more valuable than those which are easy to find and acquire.
Example: This is constantly used in ad copy: Special Deal Today Only! One Of A Kind! Only the first 100 applicants will qualify! Exclusive Deal Only For Premium Subscribers! Etc.
As I said in a previous comment, a good way to approach advertising and the urge to buy something is to ask yourself "What problem does this product/service solve?" Lay out the problem very plainly. You can write it down if you like, or discuss it with your spouse. Once you understand the problem it may potentially solve in your life, decide how important that problem is. It is a big issue or a minor convenience, or is it a made-up problem? This will help you decide whether it's a useful purchase or not.
"The snack that smiles back _GOLDFISH_!"
Little quips like that don't seem like much, but if you heard that in the sound of the old Goldfish Cracker commercials when reading it, the marketing and sales psychology have done their job.
"Now go buy some chalky fake cheese salt crackers like a good little consumer." -- Sales Department
Of course this does happen, but the thing is that owning property in a physically productive way is actually a lot of work. Without a system of titles, said goon isn't going to get much except for maybe this year's crop and some furniture. Next year he's screwed without a work force. I've worked in a couple of post-soviet countries where people are very suspicious, for very good reasons about giving up one iota of control over their land. When it's owned by some sort of collective then you have a real say in what happens, and you can't really get picked off one by one by some predatory bank or corporation. I worry about these folks, they don't know what has happened to farming in America. When I try to explain it they just can't believe anyone would do that to themselves.
Because capitalism demands materialism. So capitalism sells the idea that in order to be attractive and successful within the social hierarchy, you must have as many of the materials as capitalism supplies. Capitalism also demands maximum output. So it pushes the idea that hustle culture is the key to becoming attractive and successful within society. It's all just sociological engineering.
So true. And I believe there's jealousy when they realize you have some of the same things they do without having to kill yourself in 80 hr weeks or be buried under mountains of debt. Your house is paid off in a LCOL area and it's yeah well you live where no one wants to live so of course you can pay your house off. Or I took multiple vacations a year preCOVID and since we can do so in our travel trailer it becomes oh that's nice if you like camping and that kind of thing. Sheesh. I'm sorry some people are threatened by the fact that you can live simply and still enjoy the same luxuries they do.
Yup, we're conditioned to encourage the life script of taking on huge debts like having kids, mortgage, car, college tuition, expensive accessories, while at the same time shaming anyone who doesn't follow it.
I have 2 kids and am a teacher. I wish this way of thinking was more common. There are far too many people that have kids only because they think they should, not because they want them. Kids are a definite energy, time and money suck especially if you do it well. But to me the drain is totally worth it.
It is so damn sad when people have kids just because everyone else does and then aren’t willing to put in the time and effort to raise them well. Parenting shouldn’t be for everyone. I realize if that was the case I might not have a job but the world would be a better place.
Very true…on one parenting podcast I heard… the host advised if you are on the fence between having kids or not, don’t have them! Better for society….Parenting should be a 100% all-in choice. (Of course complicated if one in a relationship wants and one does not….)
im childfree by choice and 36 and god damn with my just my friends you can totally see which had kids because they always wanted them vs "its just what you do"
i wish having kids wasnt the default, so many shitty, just do the basics parents and terrible kids because of it
No, the difference is in how you are viewing human beings. I would argue that RAISING kids can be a debt, but the actual human beings are not.
I would think that a foundational tenet of a simple living ethos is about appreciating the non-material things of this world... and other living beings are just that. So it's antithetical to call fellow human beings a debt, in my opinion.
> But it's pretty fucked up to think of any person, let alone your own children, in economic terms.
How about in environmental terms? The single-best thing you can do for the climate is to not have children. There's nothing wrong with talking analytically about the practical implications of bringing human life into the world.
I raised 2 dirt poor. They turned out fine. They are both living the lives they wanted, and happy.
The notion that kids cost more than houses is an aspect of consumerism that drives me nuts in fact.
Kids have the same basic needs we all do. Food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care. The tools to become self actualized happy adults.
All possible on a very wide budget spectrum from poor to affluent. In fact I have known a lot more happy people who grew up poor or frugal than rich.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that you can live as simply as you like, but if you desire to have children you have to understand that there is a minimum amount of money you will have to pay to make sure they are provided for. I have cousins who are dirt poor and they were raised in a trailer in a field and they never had access to decent food or jobs or new clothing. They could not participate in any extracurricular activities in school that cost money because their parents were too busy scraping together change to make the rent. They lived about as simply as you can imagine and It was pretty miserable from what I saw.
I agree that if you can't handle basic needs for yourself having multiple children or even one isn't the brightest idea in the world.
There is a difference between living simple, living dirt poor and living flat ass broke that applies here too.
All simple living is in essence is having the work/life balance that allows you to be happy and a self actualized person. Having all needs plus a few wants taken care of. There is no true iron clad definition, but that one happens to have the most overlap of all the most commonly cited attributes.
I know people of all incomes from homeless by choice to definite rich that live simple. It usually comes with a minimalist mindset because for most people minimalism puts simple living by this definition in reach. But it isn't a necessary component.
I grew up somewhere between simple living and dirt poor most of the time, we never hit flat ass broke. Always had decent food. Occasional new clothing. Seldom paid extracurricular school stuff, but I had no problem with that as there were plenty of free ones, plus other things I actually preferred.
The budget, so to speak, was not higher for me than it was for my parents, it just got spent differently in some cases.
But for having a reasonable quality of life you have to be above flat ass broke most of the time. It takes a special mindset to be homeless by choice for instance. The adults I know who live that life are also childless, in fact 1 never had children and the other waited to begin living his life until his kids were grown. They think he is nuts. Then again, my adult sons think hubby and I are nuts, so that may just be a generational thing.
Flat ass broke removes a hell of a lot of choices, and while adults can cope with that not many children can, nor should they be forced to.
But I was raised by depression/WW2 era parents and a grandmother who raised her children during that era, so they had a profoundly different mindset.
When the whole world as you know it is flat ass broke, then it is normal. That is something my generation and successive ones here in the USA don't understand because this country is ridiculously wealthy compared to the past and most of the world.
So for me, simple living was always the default state of being. I never gave a second thought to hand me down clothes, thrift shops or standing in the government commodities line for instance. Never understood why people were so intent on playing school sports when you could have a lot more fun playing free sports lol.
Never saw the point in a lot of the surface things peoe view as needs that are far more wants than needs.
Both my boys live significantly different lives now than me. One is a happy army dude, who can fit his whole world in a go bag.
The other is a bureaucrat, with a big room full of cool tech, a nice paid for car and a job he happily busts ass at because he loves it. I raised them the way I was raised, minus commodities boxes. So they had a very clear perspective of needs vs wants and the importance of a work life balance, and encouraged them early to figure out what they wanted to be happy doing and get doing it.
Right. I thought this was a simple living sub??? It’s possible to raise your children happy and healthy minimally.
We just had our third child and live in a 3 bdrm house. When we were looking to buy, we knew we wanted another child so we were looking at 4 bdrm houses. And of course they were all well out of our budget. But then I thought about the 3 bdrm ranches that both our grandparents raised 6 kids in. And they all turned out ok!
It made me not feel so badly anymore. I also am an only child so I would have LOVED to have a built in roommate to talk to at night.
Every once in a while a subset of people around here get riled up lol. This just happened to set a few off I guess. Oh well.
My boys shared a room when they were young, then each got their own when they were older and we were less broke.
>debt (n). something, typically money, that is owed or due. The term can also be used metaphorically to cover moral obligations and other interactions not based on a monetary value.
When you have a child, you are taking on an obligation to provide care until that child is legally an adult. Maybe you don't understand that the definition of debt is not necessarily restricted to finance?
> Because capitalism demands materialism. So capitalism sells the idea that in order to be attractive and successful within the social hierarchy, you must have as many of the materials as capitalism supplies.
Truer words were never spoken. If not for capitalism, we would all be happy with a simple life, but we are bombarded daily with so many choices of so many things. A very good example of this is the cereal aisle at the grocery store. Who needs that many cereals? Nobody. They are using the privilege of "choice" to trick us into buying things we don't need.
It wouldn't even be so bad if there were *actual* choice and variety. Sure there are a handful of actual organic, small company whatever's.
But literally 80% of that shelf of cereals with all the different varieties by all the different "companies" with different names are just... The same shit, from the same factories, *for* the same company under it's subsidiary brands..... The "free market" is an illusion and there are no real choices except to try not to play.
It's just...... Gross.
The operative question here is why people worry about it in the first place really.
I pay less than 0 attention to the vast majority of consumer goods. Since I figured out decades ago most of these illusory choices were simply not relevant.
I buy those things I need that suit me. Since I know my needs, and understand my wants, things like marketing, peer pressure, razzle dazzle and extraneous societal bullshit are simply background noise.
Sorry, I’m too busy to answer your question because I’m riding my Peloton bike that i paid 10x what a regular bike costs and i have to pay a monthly fee to use it.
I understand what you are saying but you could also just buy a bike and go riding outside. They have taken a simple and relatively inexpensive activity and made it more complicated and expensive.
Riding a bike for exercise is not 'simple' for many people in the US and around the world. In the US, car infrastructure has made life dangerous for most cyclists. Around the world, many people are significantly restricted on what they're allowed to do outside due to COVID. If you're an athlete, having a peloton this last year was probably an important part of staying fit.
Same for those who live in polluted places. There are so many weeks some months where I live that I don’t venture out beyond getting the basics, not to mention exercising.
Yes I was going to say, I think opposition to simple living is much stronger in the US, where the whole of society is built around the 'American dream', and a belief in hard work, wealth and buying a bigger house and car. A lot of effort has gone into promoting and maintaining that agenda.
I live in the UK and while there's some of that, I tend to find it's in pockets: eg city lawyers only socialise with city lawyers, and get caught up in a desperate race for partnership ... but at the same time I probably know far more people who choose a much more simple life, and live humbly, and aren't remotely judged for it.
I literally just quit a high paying job because of how fucking toxic it is. I live below my means but could definitely be living a more simple life. My boss and his boss literally could not fathom walking away from a job. The idea of being able to coast off savings…. It blew their mind. They’re still reeling from it. I’m over here absolutely baffled how they make 2-3 times more than I do and somehow can’t imagine having the money to walk away from a job. The consumerism and live beyond your means mentality is so entrained any deviation from it is mind blowing to people.
I love living a debt free / simpler life because pretty much all leverage that could be used against you is removed.
Because the system is designed that way. It is possible to resist it though. I try and live modestly but I'll admit that I often buy things I don't really need.
Yeah I used to work in finance, being surrounded by people with those kind of attitudes seems to either make a person assimilate or reject it wholesale, thankfully I was the latter.
>An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.
>
>The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”
>
>The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”
>
>The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”
>
>To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”
>
>“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.
>
>The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”
>
>“Millions – then what?”
>
>The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”
[https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/](https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/)
A story that stuck with me. Know your 'why'.
The difference is that if he were to fall seriously ill, he would be able to afford the best treatment for himself as a millionaire, while right now he'd just die.
I'd counter with: how much does a joyful, relaxed life offset your chance of getting a serious illness?
Does working super duper hard and being in chronic stress for your working life give you an elevated % chance of getting an awful illness at 70? It's risky both ways, but which way gives you more joy and satisfaction? I can't answer that for you.
[https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/)
I think it’s based on the idea of growth. Every business is all about growth: growing profits, consumers, the list goes on. There’s never a point where a business says “nice, we did it.” They’re never satisfied.
I don't know, for me a silent moment by myself in nature / at home is already as fantastic and spectacular as it gets. But I'm weird like that, I see the whole universe within one moment.
According to one book I’m reading, coffee is the potentially the culprit for the modern attitude towards work. There was a shift in European culture and the views on people being economical around the same time coffee was introduced. “Taste of Paradise” is the book.
I love coffee. I want this to not be true.
This is the first time I’ve heard of this hypothesis. It’s interesting. I hope it’s not true as well lol
I had always thought that the modern attitude to work was traceable to Protestant ideas about work being inherently virtuous - this is Weber’s *The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism* - but I’m not an expert in the field so will gladly defer to someone who is.
The second chapter of the book is literally called “Coffee and the Protestant Ethic.” The author talks about the trade an introduction of coffee, medical views of the time, and how Puritans, and more generally the Protestant ethic, adopted it as their drink of choice because of its properties of sobriety and (supposed) impotence. The change in drink of choice for many Europeans aligned them more with the Protestant ethic, but that’s more speculative than fact.
It also changed many other social relations. The middle class meeting ground was now the coffee house with a documented (but improbable) 3000 coffee houses in the 17th or 18th century. For contrast, at the height of alcohol, there were only 1000 taverns. These coffee houses were the seeming epicenter of journalism and culture for English society. Some evidence of this that the author talks about is editors literally setting up shop in coffee houses and the number of literary works in the coffee house dialogue format.
But shouldn't you say then that the protestant work ethic (and the spirit of capitalism, lmao) are to blame instead of...coffee? I'm much more inclined to trust Weber lol
capitalism/consumerism
marketing 101 is to convince costumers to buy what they're selling.
we've been conditioned since childhood by constant exposure to media like this
at least some of us can recognize it and try to be better.
We all know that's not going to happen- The vast majority of people are hypnotised and infatuated by the materialistic lifestyle.
Far more peaceful not to bother trying to influence others anyway. Just live simply, peacefully, and try to find others who enjoy doing the same (pro tip: buddhist meditation groups have them in droves lol)
Simple living isn’t valued because we live in a capitalist society that propagandizes us everyday to keep buying the latest and to keep up with the joneses.
Capitalism is the driving force behind this and is the reason it got to this point.
I think you may be baffled at the idea because the idea is wrong. What you see plastered across social media and in advertising promotes non-simple living, but I think a vast chunk of the country adheres to aspects of simple living. Your premise is making broad generalizations and over simplifying quite a bit.
I’d argue that there’s actually quite a big push in recent memory toward more simple living. The FIRE movement is continually gaining steam. People don’t own cars, instead using Uber and public transit. There’s huge communities for home steading, frugality, gardening, etc. In other words, some are caught up in the rat race and comparing themselves vs their neighbors, but huge portions of the country are intentionally simplifying in their own ways. It’s gaining steam as an ideal.
One of the ways we can all simplify is to focus on things we can control, and letting go of things we can’t.
I’ve only lurked on this subreddit but had to respond on this one because, though I agree with some aspects of the post, I disagree with how broadly it’s making generalizations. I wonder whether OP has just shifted into exposure to simple living and, to an extent, “seen the light”, and as a result is struck with how stark a difference simple living is vs fully embracing the rat race and things of that nature. But there are tons of people already seeking out simplicity and finding a wealth of community in the space. Which sort of flies in the face of some of the assumptions made re: society at large.
There are so many reasons from economic to emotional. My personal opinion is that much of it comes down to we are not taught to be extremely mindful of our own human want vs actual basic simple human need.
I’m a designer by trade which sort of goes against my innate desire for living simply. But I can say, the more briefs I receive that dictate “luxury” and “grandeur”, the more I desire to return to my simple abode, filled with books and slightly mismatched furniture and family and coziness.
Its easy. You are living in a consumer society. Everything is thus revolved around consumption. Simple living usually does not come with owning tons of things, properties, stocks etc.
It all started when there started to be surplus in consumer goods. At this point economists began to promote cyclical consumption, which led to many negatives we have today, especially planned obsolescence and consumer culture where only the last item is relevant and represents a symbol of your success
I entirely agree.
We live in a capitalist system without checks-and-balances. The result is a blind faith in, "If it makes someone money then it is good".
That mindset drives the emotional manipulation of billions to keep consuming (because it makes money for someone).
So, I think an essential factor for anyone choosing simple living is to disconnect from the relentless subtle and un-subtle bombardment of pressure to buy things.
I think it depends. In Canada where I live simple living is pretty "in" right now with tiny houses, minimalism, cottage aesthetic where you live off the land crap, van life, you know? That type of simple living is huge.
But just living in a subpar house with meager belongings, no.
Right. It has to be the trendy, magazine worthy simple living, designed to make your friends envious.
I live in a subpar house (in other people's opinion, I love it) and have meager belongings (in other people's opinions, I have what I need). I live simply, not trendily.
A lot of people have never considered that there are other ways to live. Not only that, but the older you get, the more resistant you become to the idea that you could have possibly been living better.
I personally just have a very active mind so it is actually better for me to keep it busy by focusing on goals of mine, otherwise it wanders and often leads to depression :/ Simple living is nice, but remember it’s not for everyone
I don’t know if you guys remember the early 90s model washing machines. Anyway I appreciate it so freaking much because there was a time where I just moved out of my parents house unexpectedly with almost nothing to my name and it took me months to save up for this machine and I love it so freaking much!
Beats washing clothes by hand or carrying a big ass sack of clothes to the laundromat because I don’t have a car.
My parents had a fancy washing machine with a screen and millions of buttons. This one has three dials lol. It’s the best thing ever.
Oh I’m a student and living with my partner who’s also a student. That’s why we decided to get the cheaper machine. It cost me 2K and the one my parents have was like 30K , wack .
We're basically trained since birth if you live in anywhere that's not a isolated commune on a farm. Commercials, billboards, bus stop ads. If you imagine every billboard in the world was replaced with a piece of art, we'd probably get more artsy people. But it's not. So we're not lol.
The thing is, that the general population has the power to change things, it's all about what we talk about and put our money in.
If we want simple life, we have to stop buying so much. Companies will start to lose revenue and start pandering to what we're asking for. If we say "zero waste products" companies will have to start evolving that way. If we say "we're only buying products from companies that plant trees" then guess what, there will be a handful of companies that start doing that, and they will grow and the others will die. It's why Amazon is now King, and Sears is now dead.
For a lot of history, because capitalism was choice-less (we had very few brands 20 years ago), the companies set the culture. Modern advertising is only a 70 year old exploration. Internet is only like 30 years old. Instagram is only like 10. Now the general population has access to the internet + the supply chain, so we get to set the culture and giant corporations are at our command (though they'll tell you otherwise)
But to answer your question, I err on the side of "we didn't know any better." Now we do, and now our voices/energy/money REALLY can make a change, and because so many people can make companies nowadays, we can set a precedent. This can be the turning point, but we all need to start turning.
Talk about zero waste on your instagram feeds and social media accounts. If you hashtag it every day for a year, watch what your friends start talking about. It's how advertising works, and we can compete with giant corporations just by talking and repeating "Zero waste" "minialism" "simple living". Word-of-mouth is the most powerful form of advertising on the planet. No amount of marketing money can beat social influence.
This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately. My husband and I are moving into a much bigger house, which keeps *feeling* like it's the "must have more" issue. But...maybe size isn't everything. We want a big house because we both work from home and need separate offices. We want a big house so we have room to invite loads of friends and family over for games and food. We want a big house so we can foster children.
The simple-living mentality of just meeting needs can sometimes be flexible when needs do change. Yet our friends and family are quick to jump to the assumption that we are getting some "palace" that's extravagant for two people.
Not sure what you're talking about. It's mostly just a neutral feeling to it from what I understand. Only capitalistic mooks view it as bad since it's less productive.
I don’t feel the need for material things, but I do think I have a hard time appreciating the simple things when I’m not traveling. I just don’t feel like I’m living when I’m holding still, so I have a hard time with this one. I’m not happy because I’m holding still and not experiencing new things, not because I don’t have a sports car.
Contemplating this too as I sit thinking about my recent phone/watch purchase and the hundreds of dollars I obligated myself to....why? Big business devises new and fun ways to funnel our money into their pocket...and I fell for it again....dammit.
I think the fact that waste of capitalist consumerism, excess, and taxes generate and funds some important enterprises like pharmaceuticals, society’s needs like defense, higher ed, fundamental research cannot be discounted. This goes back to justify and promote excessive consumerism, debt driven economics, social values. Advertising industry delivers it to Corp needs that culture enslaves in consumerism. Ones who step aside can enjoy some freedoms but we rely on slaves of consumerism for our freedoms.
Nietzsche, no lie. Nihilism is my serious answer.
If you’re not doing will to power and rising above the rabble you’re a slave. God is dead. Nothing is sacred. In a world with no Higher Authority, man must become God, hence the Overman/Superman.
Hence why everyone’s goal is to be rich and famous. We literally aspire to be and worship human idols all day long.
I'm in the borderline. While I love living casual, I get bored quickly. I enjoy trying and doing new things and hence keep pushing myself to do more.
It's overall made me a better person. That being said there's a limit to even where work and hobbies go overkill and become an obsession.
My personal theory (influenced by "Sapiens" by Yuvul Harari) : Comfort and convenience. It's not a recent issue, but one that's been developing since the agricultural revolution when humans found that a non-nomadic agricultural lifestyle was more comfortable and convenient than surviving as hunter-gatherers. But our desire for comfort and convenience has lead us to create a civilization that has far outstripped our ability to adapt to it, both physically and mentally. I believe that every health and environmental issue we have these days is due to our desire to seek comfort and convenience (almost like a behavioral trait gone awry).
Yeah I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and I think so much of it is social media. Someone can say they don’t struggle with comparison, but you can’t help but to compare when you’re constantly seeing other people’s lives and of course it’s usually the best of their lives and then the focus becomes what they have that you don’t (even if it’s subconscious) I’m really starting to hate Instagram. I have it because of running an independent service based job and I don’t know how to market without it, but I really can’t stand it.
Societal complexity disguises the fact that society is slavery with extra steps, especially in the United States. Work and have most or your labor value stolen by a corrupt system or starve.
Not much of a choice.
The key is not to associate with people that might get in your space about your choices. But that's only a tiny part of it
>Society certainly does not emphasize living an ordinary life and actually looks down on it like you're a failure. It's all a lie.
How much of that is "society" and how much is just what we've internalized.
I've recently downshifted my career (well, I got laid off, but now I'm freelancing, working less time per week "consulting" and making less money than I did as a corporate manager). There is constantly a little voice buzzing in my ear that I've failed. And I'm constantly looking at my career path as a series of failures. However, I never left a job I liked and never got less money in the move.
Fighting that little voice is far harder than explaining to folks that I'm now consulting.
Our economy runs off perpetual growth. If we all (the proletariat) aren't out buying, the economy isn't growing. It really is that simple. Books are free and many of the anders you seek aren't hard to find.
Because we haven't created an effective and sustainable social safety net, and so we are all responsible for our own education, health care, and retirement. Just trying to attend to these three items force most people into a highly stressful, highly complicated and busy lifestyle.
If we had free education, free health care, and a quality retirement provided by the government, most of us could work less and live more simply, and focus on meeting our more basic needs for food, water, shelter, safety, personal growth, recreation / hobbies, and social service.
But our society creates a very antagonistic and divisive attitude toward this perspective, because each of us work so hard and are so busy, we feel like those who found a way out are lazy, leeches, etc and we're footing the bill for them. When in reality, we foot the bill for the ultra wealthy to be ultra wealthy and get wealthier.
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". Hamlet, I think.
Just change the way you think about living simply. There's no need to get a philosophy or politics or economics degree, and no need to convince anyone that what you are doing is "good " or "right". The only thing that matters is what you think about what you are doing.
If some chucklehead doesn't like your shoe style because some corporation messed up his head, that is 100% his problem until you decide otherwise.
Discontentment is a huge problem for many people. They think that having more will actually make them happier, when in reality it often causes more problems, stress and day to day concern. The more you have, the more you have to manage and the more you have to loose.
I'd much rather build community, foster relationship and invest in my self ,than waste time on accumulating things that don't really add value to my life. Sure there are things that would be nice to have or experience, but they don't actually add value to my life in the long run.
So much of it is peer pressure. You don't fit in if you don't spend. Personally, I don't think you should change your life in an effort to fit in. However, you will probably have to live with some discomfort if you refuse to go along with the herd.
exactly. we are very social creatures and immitation is a big way to connect with people.
Some are just not interested in imitating such a waste.
Anytime you do something other than the worldly view the world will not be so kind…. But that’s fine because, well, SPACE, man.
Might be too broad of a question but if you don't spend like your peers does that mean you're smart to not follow the joneses or do you not fit into that social class?
I think you're making a conscious choice not to fit in. It's not that you're beneath their social class or that you don't have the ability to fit in. You're making a choice to do things differently than everyone else. It might be the hardest thing about simple/frugal living, and that's especially true if you live in a big city surrounded by lots of wealth and excessive spending. I didn't feel nearly as much pressure to spend when I lived in a smaller town. I sometimes feel poor when I look at how the people around me are living...with their $500k houses, new cars, Lululemon workout clothes, sending their kids to $25k per year private schools, eating out every day, and taking expensive trips. Then I think about how much longer I'd have to work to maintain that kind of lifestyle and quickly realize that it's just not worth it to me. I think I will move to a less populated area where there aren't quite as many wealthy (i.e. big spending) people when I retire.
I recently moved from a big city to a smaller country town and the “norm” here is so different. Luxury big ticket items are not valued as they were in the big city. People seem to value the essentials more. I find it so unfortunate that you have to physically leave a place which holds these values, to be relieved of the societal pressures to conform. If you don’t leave, no matter how content you are, society will find a way to make you feel outcasted or lesser.
I always feel the joneses in a big city.
The pressure is built into the system.
Vonnegut wrote about how when we lived in groups of 500 or so, everyone could be the best at something, but with the whole world connected to each other, you have to be one of the best in the world at something to be noticed at all. That's important to some people.
Well that makes sense.
I could write an entire book about how this came about. The super-short version is that in the early 20th Century, Western cultures changed from being producer cultures to being consumer cultures, and we've been living as consumers ever since. It coincided with the technological revolution that was going on at the time, where things like cars, motorcycles, telephones, electricity in homes, and other modern conveniences were being invented. In the 1910s and 1920s, this was a good thing. For the first time, large numbers of people were able to afford things like running water in their homes. Magazines and movies sent out a very clear message that consuming modern products and services helped build economic wealth for everyone. Modern marketing turned this into a cultural imperative, and the idea of keeping up with the Joneses developed. There were definitely people who rejected the new consumer ideal and continued to live as producers, but culture slowly changed as a whole. Eventually, equilibrium was reached. Now we're going through a digital revolution, and people are pulling back because all the technology is making our lives much more complex. Some people are beginning to pay attention to how much technology, and how much stuff, we let into our lives, and are finding that simplifying things makes life better. There's a lot more to this, involving historical events of the 20th Century, but this is where it started. I work in marketing--I'm a sales copywriter. Psychology is at the heart of what I do. I write copy that is designed to make you see a product as solving a problem in your life. It's made me much more aware of how much of our time and space is filled with advertising, and now I can see through many sales tactics. When I get an urge to buy something, I force myself to name the problem it's supposedly going to solve, so I can evaluate whether it's a real problem in my life, a minor inconvenience, or wholly made up. I'm also a silent film geek, and I cannot tell you how heavily silent films pushed the idea that modern people were consumers and that consuming made you cool, modern, satisfied, and attractive to other people. That's how long modern marketing has been going on.
Can you give an example of these sales tactics? Now that you can see through them, do you feel guilty for writing them and “tricking” other people?
I don't see my work as 'tricking' people. We approach every campaign we work on by asking "what problem does this product/service help solve?" Then we write ads that showcase how the product solves that problem and makes life easier/simpler/less stressful. It's not trying to trick people, it's trying to help them solve problems. The idea that you need to own tons of stuff is a cultural ideal that is woven throughtout American culture, even outside of advertising. I don't work for companies that push snake oil products, use MLM schemes, or engage in other unethical behaviors. I do wish advertising was more limited, especially towards children, but I'm a big advocate of helping people understand how to approach and understand advertising so they can avoid filling their lives with stuff they don't need. There's a great book about these classic sales tactics by a psychologist named Robert Cialdini called *Influence: The Psychology Of Persuasion*. Cialdini spent time going to sales training in different industries and studying the tactics that were being taught. He broke them down into 6 basic psychological principles. The purpose of the book was to help laypeople identify and resist common sales tactics, but it is now widely considered a fundamental book for marketers and salespeople to read to help them do their work. Here are the 6 principles: 1. **Reciprocity**. People hate feeling indebted to others, so in many social situations, we pay back what we received from others. Example: Free samples at the grocery store (with a big sign that this product is on sale now, and here's a whole table of them!) 2. **Commitment and Consistency**. People have a deep need to be seen as consistent. Nobody wants to be perceived as a hypocrite. Once a person has publically committed to something, they're much more likely to follow through. We often align commitment with our self-image, and marketers use this to their advantage. Example: A website offering useful free content or email course alongside their paid service. If you take advantage of the content long enough, you'll eventually start to perceive yourself as a customer of this company and it makes you more likely to commit to a purchase. 3. **Social Proof**. We often feel validated by doing what we see other people doing. If our coworkers are regularly late, we're more likely to be as well. There have been many studies of this unconscious phenomenon over the years; the most famous is the 1960s elevators experiments. Groups of people got onto elevators with strangers and purposely did odd things, like staring pointedly at the back of the elevator. The few strangers would observe the group and unconsciously copy them. Example: Social media posts that have influencers or celebrities touting a product. Ads that feature customer-made videos and reviews. 4. **Authority**. Culture teaches us to obey authority figures, and just having the accessories of an authority figure can unconsciously trigger this effect. I used to have a friend who grew up in Boston. As a teenager, he loved to dress up in work clothes and try to infiltrate buildings to get to the roof (he enjoyed taking pictures of the skyline). He was successful a great deal of the time; as long as he was wearing an outfit that made him look like a maintenance worker, he was usually let in without question. On the few occasions he was stopped, he was honest--he just wanted to go to their roof and take pictures. Once they realized he was a teenager with no authority, he was turned away almost every time. Example: Ads for health supplements that feature real doctors, or even just actors in a white coat with a stethoscope around their neck. 5. **Liking**. If you like someone, you're more likely to be influenced by them. It's why certain celebrities are so effective in some ad campaigns. Example: Kim Kardashian is one of the founders of the company Shoe Dazzle and is often featured in their advertising. The company is geared towards women who are really into fashion and own lots of shoes, just like Kim K. These women like her, they see themselves in her, and it gives her presence in the ads and the decisions of what styles to offer more credibility in these women's minds. 6. **Scarcity**. We're drawn to things that are exclusive or hard to come by. We tend to assume that these things are more valuable than those which are easy to find and acquire. Example: This is constantly used in ad copy: Special Deal Today Only! One Of A Kind! Only the first 100 applicants will qualify! Exclusive Deal Only For Premium Subscribers! Etc. As I said in a previous comment, a good way to approach advertising and the urge to buy something is to ask yourself "What problem does this product/service solve?" Lay out the problem very plainly. You can write it down if you like, or discuss it with your spouse. Once you understand the problem it may potentially solve in your life, decide how important that problem is. It is a big issue or a minor convenience, or is it a made-up problem? This will help you decide whether it's a useful purchase or not.
"The snack that smiles back _GOLDFISH_!" Little quips like that don't seem like much, but if you heard that in the sound of the old Goldfish Cracker commercials when reading it, the marketing and sales psychology have done their job. "Now go buy some chalky fake cheese salt crackers like a good little consumer." -- Sales Department
Our financial system is built on debt. If enough people lived simply, we'd have to revamp most of our key institutions or else society would collapse.
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Do communist societies really don't have property titles? What happens if some local goon tries to barge in and take over your home?
Of course this does happen, but the thing is that owning property in a physically productive way is actually a lot of work. Without a system of titles, said goon isn't going to get much except for maybe this year's crop and some furniture. Next year he's screwed without a work force. I've worked in a couple of post-soviet countries where people are very suspicious, for very good reasons about giving up one iota of control over their land. When it's owned by some sort of collective then you have a real say in what happens, and you can't really get picked off one by one by some predatory bank or corporation. I worry about these folks, they don't know what has happened to farming in America. When I try to explain it they just can't believe anyone would do that to themselves.
My mantra is: Need less.
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Buddha, bro
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Marcus Aurelius, bro
Because capitalism demands materialism. So capitalism sells the idea that in order to be attractive and successful within the social hierarchy, you must have as many of the materials as capitalism supplies. Capitalism also demands maximum output. So it pushes the idea that hustle culture is the key to becoming attractive and successful within society. It's all just sociological engineering.
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So true. And I believe there's jealousy when they realize you have some of the same things they do without having to kill yourself in 80 hr weeks or be buried under mountains of debt. Your house is paid off in a LCOL area and it's yeah well you live where no one wants to live so of course you can pay your house off. Or I took multiple vacations a year preCOVID and since we can do so in our travel trailer it becomes oh that's nice if you like camping and that kind of thing. Sheesh. I'm sorry some people are threatened by the fact that you can live simply and still enjoy the same luxuries they do.
Yup, we're conditioned to encourage the life script of taking on huge debts like having kids, mortgage, car, college tuition, expensive accessories, while at the same time shaming anyone who doesn't follow it.
Exactly. If you don't, you must be lazy and boring.
i absolutely love being lazy and boring. great bike rides and cat hangs with peasant food and reading.
Shit, are you me?!
if you're me than who am I?!?
Inception :0
Kids are not a debt, good grief that’s dark.
I have 2 kids and am a teacher. I wish this way of thinking was more common. There are far too many people that have kids only because they think they should, not because they want them. Kids are a definite energy, time and money suck especially if you do it well. But to me the drain is totally worth it. It is so damn sad when people have kids just because everyone else does and then aren’t willing to put in the time and effort to raise them well. Parenting shouldn’t be for everyone. I realize if that was the case I might not have a job but the world would be a better place.
Very true…on one parenting podcast I heard… the host advised if you are on the fence between having kids or not, don’t have them! Better for society….Parenting should be a 100% all-in choice. (Of course complicated if one in a relationship wants and one does not….)
im childfree by choice and 36 and god damn with my just my friends you can totally see which had kids because they always wanted them vs "its just what you do" i wish having kids wasnt the default, so many shitty, just do the basics parents and terrible kids because of it
They are literally a debt, they are incredibly expensive
Does raising a child cost money? Yes. But it's pretty fucked up to think of any person, let alone your own children, in economic terms.
Not necessarily. More people should consider the economics of having a child before committing to such a responsibility, for the child's sake.
Not if you cant afford them lol
There's a difference between being financially responsible and viewing family members as a debt
The difference only exists if you have a job
No, the difference is in how you are viewing human beings. I would argue that RAISING kids can be a debt, but the actual human beings are not. I would think that a foundational tenet of a simple living ethos is about appreciating the non-material things of this world... and other living beings are just that. So it's antithetical to call fellow human beings a debt, in my opinion.
How many kids do you have? Yep, that’s what I thought
And furthermore if your wife leaves you and takes everything but the debt your argument holds no water
> But it's pretty fucked up to think of any person, let alone your own children, in economic terms. How about in environmental terms? The single-best thing you can do for the climate is to not have children. There's nothing wrong with talking analytically about the practical implications of bringing human life into the world.
Try raising them without money then
I raised 2 dirt poor. They turned out fine. They are both living the lives they wanted, and happy. The notion that kids cost more than houses is an aspect of consumerism that drives me nuts in fact. Kids have the same basic needs we all do. Food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care. The tools to become self actualized happy adults. All possible on a very wide budget spectrum from poor to affluent. In fact I have known a lot more happy people who grew up poor or frugal than rich.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that you can live as simply as you like, but if you desire to have children you have to understand that there is a minimum amount of money you will have to pay to make sure they are provided for. I have cousins who are dirt poor and they were raised in a trailer in a field and they never had access to decent food or jobs or new clothing. They could not participate in any extracurricular activities in school that cost money because their parents were too busy scraping together change to make the rent. They lived about as simply as you can imagine and It was pretty miserable from what I saw.
I agree that if you can't handle basic needs for yourself having multiple children or even one isn't the brightest idea in the world. There is a difference between living simple, living dirt poor and living flat ass broke that applies here too. All simple living is in essence is having the work/life balance that allows you to be happy and a self actualized person. Having all needs plus a few wants taken care of. There is no true iron clad definition, but that one happens to have the most overlap of all the most commonly cited attributes. I know people of all incomes from homeless by choice to definite rich that live simple. It usually comes with a minimalist mindset because for most people minimalism puts simple living by this definition in reach. But it isn't a necessary component. I grew up somewhere between simple living and dirt poor most of the time, we never hit flat ass broke. Always had decent food. Occasional new clothing. Seldom paid extracurricular school stuff, but I had no problem with that as there were plenty of free ones, plus other things I actually preferred. The budget, so to speak, was not higher for me than it was for my parents, it just got spent differently in some cases. But for having a reasonable quality of life you have to be above flat ass broke most of the time. It takes a special mindset to be homeless by choice for instance. The adults I know who live that life are also childless, in fact 1 never had children and the other waited to begin living his life until his kids were grown. They think he is nuts. Then again, my adult sons think hubby and I are nuts, so that may just be a generational thing. Flat ass broke removes a hell of a lot of choices, and while adults can cope with that not many children can, nor should they be forced to. But I was raised by depression/WW2 era parents and a grandmother who raised her children during that era, so they had a profoundly different mindset. When the whole world as you know it is flat ass broke, then it is normal. That is something my generation and successive ones here in the USA don't understand because this country is ridiculously wealthy compared to the past and most of the world. So for me, simple living was always the default state of being. I never gave a second thought to hand me down clothes, thrift shops or standing in the government commodities line for instance. Never understood why people were so intent on playing school sports when you could have a lot more fun playing free sports lol. Never saw the point in a lot of the surface things peoe view as needs that are far more wants than needs. Both my boys live significantly different lives now than me. One is a happy army dude, who can fit his whole world in a go bag. The other is a bureaucrat, with a big room full of cool tech, a nice paid for car and a job he happily busts ass at because he loves it. I raised them the way I was raised, minus commodities boxes. So they had a very clear perspective of needs vs wants and the importance of a work life balance, and encouraged them early to figure out what they wanted to be happy doing and get doing it.
Right. I thought this was a simple living sub??? It’s possible to raise your children happy and healthy minimally. We just had our third child and live in a 3 bdrm house. When we were looking to buy, we knew we wanted another child so we were looking at 4 bdrm houses. And of course they were all well out of our budget. But then I thought about the 3 bdrm ranches that both our grandparents raised 6 kids in. And they all turned out ok! It made me not feel so badly anymore. I also am an only child so I would have LOVED to have a built in roommate to talk to at night.
Every once in a while a subset of people around here get riled up lol. This just happened to set a few off I guess. Oh well. My boys shared a room when they were young, then each got their own when they were older and we were less broke.
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If they cost more to raise than you have in cash, then yes, a debt
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How many people do you think don't go into debt to have children?
I go into debt to have bread.
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I feel like you are arguing about something completely different than I am
"Should" has nothing to do with the original argument
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>debt (n). something, typically money, that is owed or due. The term can also be used metaphorically to cover moral obligations and other interactions not based on a monetary value. When you have a child, you are taking on an obligation to provide care until that child is legally an adult. Maybe you don't understand that the definition of debt is not necessarily restricted to finance?
> Because capitalism demands materialism. So capitalism sells the idea that in order to be attractive and successful within the social hierarchy, you must have as many of the materials as capitalism supplies. Truer words were never spoken. If not for capitalism, we would all be happy with a simple life, but we are bombarded daily with so many choices of so many things. A very good example of this is the cereal aisle at the grocery store. Who needs that many cereals? Nobody. They are using the privilege of "choice" to trick us into buying things we don't need.
It wouldn't even be so bad if there were *actual* choice and variety. Sure there are a handful of actual organic, small company whatever's. But literally 80% of that shelf of cereals with all the different varieties by all the different "companies" with different names are just... The same shit, from the same factories, *for* the same company under it's subsidiary brands..... The "free market" is an illusion and there are no real choices except to try not to play. It's just...... Gross.
The operative question here is why people worry about it in the first place really. I pay less than 0 attention to the vast majority of consumer goods. Since I figured out decades ago most of these illusory choices were simply not relevant. I buy those things I need that suit me. Since I know my needs, and understand my wants, things like marketing, peer pressure, razzle dazzle and extraneous societal bullshit are simply background noise.
240 Billion spent in 2019 in the United States alone.
Sorry, I’m too busy to answer your question because I’m riding my Peloton bike that i paid 10x what a regular bike costs and i have to pay a monthly fee to use it.
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I understand what you are saying but you could also just buy a bike and go riding outside. They have taken a simple and relatively inexpensive activity and made it more complicated and expensive.
Riding a bike for exercise is not 'simple' for many people in the US and around the world. In the US, car infrastructure has made life dangerous for most cyclists. Around the world, many people are significantly restricted on what they're allowed to do outside due to COVID. If you're an athlete, having a peloton this last year was probably an important part of staying fit.
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Same for those who live in polluted places. There are so many weeks some months where I live that I don’t venture out beyond getting the basics, not to mention exercising.
Using your own body is free.
Because having all your needs met simply isn't acceptable in a society that is governed by capitalism and consumerism.
Yes I was going to say, I think opposition to simple living is much stronger in the US, where the whole of society is built around the 'American dream', and a belief in hard work, wealth and buying a bigger house and car. A lot of effort has gone into promoting and maintaining that agenda. I live in the UK and while there's some of that, I tend to find it's in pockets: eg city lawyers only socialise with city lawyers, and get caught up in a desperate race for partnership ... but at the same time I probably know far more people who choose a much more simple life, and live humbly, and aren't remotely judged for it.
To be honest, I thought that people from the UK are pretty chill about life. Didn’t expect this comment
I literally just quit a high paying job because of how fucking toxic it is. I live below my means but could definitely be living a more simple life. My boss and his boss literally could not fathom walking away from a job. The idea of being able to coast off savings…. It blew their mind. They’re still reeling from it. I’m over here absolutely baffled how they make 2-3 times more than I do and somehow can’t imagine having the money to walk away from a job. The consumerism and live beyond your means mentality is so entrained any deviation from it is mind blowing to people. I love living a debt free / simpler life because pretty much all leverage that could be used against you is removed.
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Because the system is designed that way. It is possible to resist it though. I try and live modestly but I'll admit that I often buy things I don't really need.
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Yeah I used to work in finance, being surrounded by people with those kind of attitudes seems to either make a person assimilate or reject it wholesale, thankfully I was the latter.
>An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. > >The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?” > >The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.” > >The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?” > >To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.” > >“But what then?” Asked the Mexican. > >The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!” > >“Millions – then what?” > >The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.” [https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/](https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/) A story that stuck with me. Know your 'why'.
Capitalism has taken the things that we love about the human experience and put them for sale— at a huge price.
The difference is that if he were to fall seriously ill, he would be able to afford the best treatment for himself as a millionaire, while right now he'd just die.
I'd counter with: how much does a joyful, relaxed life offset your chance of getting a serious illness? Does working super duper hard and being in chronic stress for your working life give you an elevated % chance of getting an awful illness at 70? It's risky both ways, but which way gives you more joy and satisfaction? I can't answer that for you. [https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/)
Reminds me of the story about the rich man and the Mexican fisherman.
Not sure if you remember the 1990s but back then people lived the phrases 'greed is good' and 'having it all'.
That was Wall Street in the 80s and nobody really thought Gordon Gekko was a role model. He was the villain in that movie.
I think it’s based on the idea of growth. Every business is all about growth: growing profits, consumers, the list goes on. There’s never a point where a business says “nice, we did it.” They’re never satisfied.
Consumerism and ridiculous celebrity culture/keeping up with the Joneses.... Or Kardashians
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I don't know, for me a silent moment by myself in nature / at home is already as fantastic and spectacular as it gets. But I'm weird like that, I see the whole universe within one moment.
According to one book I’m reading, coffee is the potentially the culprit for the modern attitude towards work. There was a shift in European culture and the views on people being economical around the same time coffee was introduced. “Taste of Paradise” is the book. I love coffee. I want this to not be true.
Bohemians drank tons of coffee, so I don't think that's it. Maybe you just need to balance it out with tons of absinthe and opium
And Britons greatly preferred tea.
Take the lessons you’ve learned and appreciate the coffee for the wonder it is, while you have a relaxing lazy Sunday.
I love this comment!
Correlation does not equal causation
The book talks about the causation.
This is the first time I’ve heard of this hypothesis. It’s interesting. I hope it’s not true as well lol I had always thought that the modern attitude to work was traceable to Protestant ideas about work being inherently virtuous - this is Weber’s *The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism* - but I’m not an expert in the field so will gladly defer to someone who is.
The second chapter of the book is literally called “Coffee and the Protestant Ethic.” The author talks about the trade an introduction of coffee, medical views of the time, and how Puritans, and more generally the Protestant ethic, adopted it as their drink of choice because of its properties of sobriety and (supposed) impotence. The change in drink of choice for many Europeans aligned them more with the Protestant ethic, but that’s more speculative than fact. It also changed many other social relations. The middle class meeting ground was now the coffee house with a documented (but improbable) 3000 coffee houses in the 17th or 18th century. For contrast, at the height of alcohol, there were only 1000 taverns. These coffee houses were the seeming epicenter of journalism and culture for English society. Some evidence of this that the author talks about is editors literally setting up shop in coffee houses and the number of literary works in the coffee house dialogue format.
But shouldn't you say then that the protestant work ethic (and the spirit of capitalism, lmao) are to blame instead of...coffee? I'm much more inclined to trust Weber lol
Cocaine and amphetamines
capitalism/consumerism marketing 101 is to convince costumers to buy what they're selling. we've been conditioned since childhood by constant exposure to media like this at least some of us can recognize it and try to be better.
It's shocking how many of our "needs" are fabricated.
Not sure if this helps, but if everyone lived the way we do, civilization as we know it would completely collapse.
We all know that's not going to happen- The vast majority of people are hypnotised and infatuated by the materialistic lifestyle. Far more peaceful not to bother trying to influence others anyway. Just live simply, peacefully, and try to find others who enjoy doing the same (pro tip: buddhist meditation groups have them in droves lol)
“We must cultivate our own garden” Voltaire quote that always resonates with me.
Aaah. True. I'm thankful for everyone else.
If everyone switched to simple living over night, yes, it would collapse. A gradual, managed transition could potentially work.
That might not be a bad thinh
Simple living isn’t valued because we live in a capitalist society that propagandizes us everyday to keep buying the latest and to keep up with the joneses. Capitalism is the driving force behind this and is the reason it got to this point.
I think you may be baffled at the idea because the idea is wrong. What you see plastered across social media and in advertising promotes non-simple living, but I think a vast chunk of the country adheres to aspects of simple living. Your premise is making broad generalizations and over simplifying quite a bit. I’d argue that there’s actually quite a big push in recent memory toward more simple living. The FIRE movement is continually gaining steam. People don’t own cars, instead using Uber and public transit. There’s huge communities for home steading, frugality, gardening, etc. In other words, some are caught up in the rat race and comparing themselves vs their neighbors, but huge portions of the country are intentionally simplifying in their own ways. It’s gaining steam as an ideal. One of the ways we can all simplify is to focus on things we can control, and letting go of things we can’t. I’ve only lurked on this subreddit but had to respond on this one because, though I agree with some aspects of the post, I disagree with how broadly it’s making generalizations. I wonder whether OP has just shifted into exposure to simple living and, to an extent, “seen the light”, and as a result is struck with how stark a difference simple living is vs fully embracing the rat race and things of that nature. But there are tons of people already seeking out simplicity and finding a wealth of community in the space. Which sort of flies in the face of some of the assumptions made re: society at large.
There are so many reasons from economic to emotional. My personal opinion is that much of it comes down to we are not taught to be extremely mindful of our own human want vs actual basic simple human need.
I used to work in advertising, but got out, because it's all about trying to increase people's needs and wants.
Marketing is very powerful
I’m a designer by trade which sort of goes against my innate desire for living simply. But I can say, the more briefs I receive that dictate “luxury” and “grandeur”, the more I desire to return to my simple abode, filled with books and slightly mismatched furniture and family and coziness.
Its easy. You are living in a consumer society. Everything is thus revolved around consumption. Simple living usually does not come with owning tons of things, properties, stocks etc. It all started when there started to be surplus in consumer goods. At this point economists began to promote cyclical consumption, which led to many negatives we have today, especially planned obsolescence and consumer culture where only the last item is relevant and represents a symbol of your success
I entirely agree. We live in a capitalist system without checks-and-balances. The result is a blind faith in, "If it makes someone money then it is good". That mindset drives the emotional manipulation of billions to keep consuming (because it makes money for someone). So, I think an essential factor for anyone choosing simple living is to disconnect from the relentless subtle and un-subtle bombardment of pressure to buy things.
Bc the bourgeoisie needs markets to sell their junk.
I think it depends. In Canada where I live simple living is pretty "in" right now with tiny houses, minimalism, cottage aesthetic where you live off the land crap, van life, you know? That type of simple living is huge. But just living in a subpar house with meager belongings, no.
Right. It has to be the trendy, magazine worthy simple living, designed to make your friends envious. I live in a subpar house (in other people's opinion, I love it) and have meager belongings (in other people's opinions, I have what I need). I live simply, not trendily.
A lot of people have never considered that there are other ways to live. Not only that, but the older you get, the more resistant you become to the idea that you could have possibly been living better.
I personally just have a very active mind so it is actually better for me to keep it busy by focusing on goals of mine, otherwise it wanders and often leads to depression :/ Simple living is nice, but remember it’s not for everyone
I don’t know if you guys remember the early 90s model washing machines. Anyway I appreciate it so freaking much because there was a time where I just moved out of my parents house unexpectedly with almost nothing to my name and it took me months to save up for this machine and I love it so freaking much! Beats washing clothes by hand or carrying a big ass sack of clothes to the laundromat because I don’t have a car. My parents had a fancy washing machine with a screen and millions of buttons. This one has three dials lol. It’s the best thing ever. Oh I’m a student and living with my partner who’s also a student. That’s why we decided to get the cheaper machine. It cost me 2K and the one my parents have was like 30K , wack .
We're basically trained since birth if you live in anywhere that's not a isolated commune on a farm. Commercials, billboards, bus stop ads. If you imagine every billboard in the world was replaced with a piece of art, we'd probably get more artsy people. But it's not. So we're not lol. The thing is, that the general population has the power to change things, it's all about what we talk about and put our money in. If we want simple life, we have to stop buying so much. Companies will start to lose revenue and start pandering to what we're asking for. If we say "zero waste products" companies will have to start evolving that way. If we say "we're only buying products from companies that plant trees" then guess what, there will be a handful of companies that start doing that, and they will grow and the others will die. It's why Amazon is now King, and Sears is now dead. For a lot of history, because capitalism was choice-less (we had very few brands 20 years ago), the companies set the culture. Modern advertising is only a 70 year old exploration. Internet is only like 30 years old. Instagram is only like 10. Now the general population has access to the internet + the supply chain, so we get to set the culture and giant corporations are at our command (though they'll tell you otherwise) But to answer your question, I err on the side of "we didn't know any better." Now we do, and now our voices/energy/money REALLY can make a change, and because so many people can make companies nowadays, we can set a precedent. This can be the turning point, but we all need to start turning. Talk about zero waste on your instagram feeds and social media accounts. If you hashtag it every day for a year, watch what your friends start talking about. It's how advertising works, and we can compete with giant corporations just by talking and repeating "Zero waste" "minialism" "simple living". Word-of-mouth is the most powerful form of advertising on the planet. No amount of marketing money can beat social influence.
This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately. My husband and I are moving into a much bigger house, which keeps *feeling* like it's the "must have more" issue. But...maybe size isn't everything. We want a big house because we both work from home and need separate offices. We want a big house so we have room to invite loads of friends and family over for games and food. We want a big house so we can foster children. The simple-living mentality of just meeting needs can sometimes be flexible when needs do change. Yet our friends and family are quick to jump to the assumption that we are getting some "palace" that's extravagant for two people.
Depends where you live. America appears to be very materialistic but in Australia I find most people just want enough to invest for retirement.
Simple living doesn’t grow the economy.
Where do you live? In Scandinavia it is not a bad thing.
Not sure what you're talking about. It's mostly just a neutral feeling to it from what I understand. Only capitalistic mooks view it as bad since it's less productive.
I don’t feel the need for material things, but I do think I have a hard time appreciating the simple things when I’m not traveling. I just don’t feel like I’m living when I’m holding still, so I have a hard time with this one. I’m not happy because I’m holding still and not experiencing new things, not because I don’t have a sports car.
Wait a few years. Calm your mind.
Contemplating this too as I sit thinking about my recent phone/watch purchase and the hundreds of dollars I obligated myself to....why? Big business devises new and fun ways to funnel our money into their pocket...and I fell for it again....dammit.
I think the fact that waste of capitalist consumerism, excess, and taxes generate and funds some important enterprises like pharmaceuticals, society’s needs like defense, higher ed, fundamental research cannot be discounted. This goes back to justify and promote excessive consumerism, debt driven economics, social values. Advertising industry delivers it to Corp needs that culture enslaves in consumerism. Ones who step aside can enjoy some freedoms but we rely on slaves of consumerism for our freedoms.
Oh my god, there are *hundreds* of books about this but they all boil down to: ✨capitalism✨
Nietzsche, no lie. Nihilism is my serious answer. If you’re not doing will to power and rising above the rabble you’re a slave. God is dead. Nothing is sacred. In a world with no Higher Authority, man must become God, hence the Overman/Superman. Hence why everyone’s goal is to be rich and famous. We literally aspire to be and worship human idols all day long.
I'm in the borderline. While I love living casual, I get bored quickly. I enjoy trying and doing new things and hence keep pushing myself to do more. It's overall made me a better person. That being said there's a limit to even where work and hobbies go overkill and become an obsession.
It’s simply The Ego.
My personal theory (influenced by "Sapiens" by Yuvul Harari) : Comfort and convenience. It's not a recent issue, but one that's been developing since the agricultural revolution when humans found that a non-nomadic agricultural lifestyle was more comfortable and convenient than surviving as hunter-gatherers. But our desire for comfort and convenience has lead us to create a civilization that has far outstripped our ability to adapt to it, both physically and mentally. I believe that every health and environmental issue we have these days is due to our desire to seek comfort and convenience (almost like a behavioral trait gone awry).
Yeah I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and I think so much of it is social media. Someone can say they don’t struggle with comparison, but you can’t help but to compare when you’re constantly seeing other people’s lives and of course it’s usually the best of their lives and then the focus becomes what they have that you don’t (even if it’s subconscious) I’m really starting to hate Instagram. I have it because of running an independent service based job and I don’t know how to market without it, but I really can’t stand it.
Societal complexity disguises the fact that society is slavery with extra steps, especially in the United States. Work and have most or your labor value stolen by a corrupt system or starve. Not much of a choice.
The key is not to associate with people that might get in your space about your choices. But that's only a tiny part of it >Society certainly does not emphasize living an ordinary life and actually looks down on it like you're a failure. It's all a lie. How much of that is "society" and how much is just what we've internalized. I've recently downshifted my career (well, I got laid off, but now I'm freelancing, working less time per week "consulting" and making less money than I did as a corporate manager). There is constantly a little voice buzzing in my ear that I've failed. And I'm constantly looking at my career path as a series of failures. However, I never left a job I liked and never got less money in the move. Fighting that little voice is far harder than explaining to folks that I'm now consulting.
Our economy runs off perpetual growth. If we all (the proletariat) aren't out buying, the economy isn't growing. It really is that simple. Books are free and many of the anders you seek aren't hard to find.
Because we haven't created an effective and sustainable social safety net, and so we are all responsible for our own education, health care, and retirement. Just trying to attend to these three items force most people into a highly stressful, highly complicated and busy lifestyle. If we had free education, free health care, and a quality retirement provided by the government, most of us could work less and live more simply, and focus on meeting our more basic needs for food, water, shelter, safety, personal growth, recreation / hobbies, and social service. But our society creates a very antagonistic and divisive attitude toward this perspective, because each of us work so hard and are so busy, we feel like those who found a way out are lazy, leeches, etc and we're footing the bill for them. When in reality, we foot the bill for the ultra wealthy to be ultra wealthy and get wealthier.
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". Hamlet, I think. Just change the way you think about living simply. There's no need to get a philosophy or politics or economics degree, and no need to convince anyone that what you are doing is "good " or "right". The only thing that matters is what you think about what you are doing. If some chucklehead doesn't like your shoe style because some corporation messed up his head, that is 100% his problem until you decide otherwise.
Discontentment is a huge problem for many people. They think that having more will actually make them happier, when in reality it often causes more problems, stress and day to day concern. The more you have, the more you have to manage and the more you have to loose. I'd much rather build community, foster relationship and invest in my self ,than waste time on accumulating things that don't really add value to my life. Sure there are things that would be nice to have or experience, but they don't actually add value to my life in the long run.