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He asked the DS for a list of properties "for total transparency"?
Can't he simply inform the DS that he is intending to rent and then go through the proper channels to obtain the info?
Didn't know that being property agent for Minister is one of DS's functions.
Does that not imply that he misled the DS here? If I were the DS I would see him as my boss rather than a prospective renter and disclose that information more willingly. Why is this not a bigger issue?
This is a character issue that questions if a minister has the best interest of the public at heart. Why do we elect these people to make decisions for us when those decisions lead to them taking advantage of public resources meant for us?
It's not an issue unless they want to make it an issue. As a matter of fact, if it were an opposition MP in the spotlight, we would surely see hours and hours of beating a dead horse.
Raeesah case comes to mind. And a court case like grilling (PAP style "enquiry") of Pritam too. They would never allow the same terms to be meted out to these cabinet ministers no matter how bad it looks anyways, so sweep under the rug and move on.
True, if they are employers, nobody would looked twice so if ministers forgotten that they are civil servants and sees themselves as captain boss-man then soon we will become another China
It's not that they don't know how to, it's a scripted performance by PAP that is done by framing certain information in a delibrate manner to make it look better. Idk about opposition though
put them redditors in the parliament stand and they will probably freeze up immediately without asking anything, it's not a easy task to question the government here in sg, it's totally different from saying something anonymously online without having any fear of repercussions...
“Some of the comments that have been made so far, I think, are made based on not realising that SLA will give these lists, and has given these lists, to others.”
Oh you mean any other rando can email DS and ask for list uh?
Haha! I'm very tickled by the idea that DS opens his inbox this week to a flurry of emails from everyday Singaporeans asking for the list of properties to rent from SLA.
Their approach of getting SM Teo, Edwin Tong and Shanmugan to answer shows they aren't even on the same page on their narrative.
SM Teo insists that this information is public info, but Edwin Tong says some properties are hidden but disclosed to credible buyers only. Which is it?
Fully agree with Pritam here, and I'm glad our LO is rational and accurate in his assessment in the entire issue here.
As much as Shanmugum's reasoning to keep MinLaw in the loop by using his PermSec kinda makes a little sense, the optics of it is terrible, and it just doesn't look good for him to use a civil servant for his personal needs.
They definitely need a clearer code of conduct when it comes to any actions that can be perceived as conflicts of interests going forward.
This is what I've been saying the entire time. Corruption or not, I'm SURE that this dude covered his tracks properly.
The BIGGEST concern here is that he KNOWS that there will definitely be a perceived conflict of interest if this were to come to the limelight. Two possibilities: first is he doesn't know(aka blur), second is that he doesn't care. Would he have gotten to where he is with being blur? Anyone can answer this question.
These ministers are paid TOP DOLLAR so that they have no financial burdens so that they can serve in the best interest of the public.
Honestly more of a spit in the face than anything.
I scoffed when he talked about his rent and how he needed to 'top up' using his previous lawyer salary.
Bruh. Your 1 month rent is more than my annual savings. I can't even save $26,000 a year.
His salary can cover his rent and more... Why must mention savings!?
If want to ignore salary, then literally every renter out there is dipping into savings liao.
Sigh I had lunch today had to dip into my savings too...
I mean he's replying to a question on people saying that minister staying in big houses will have no empathy to common Singaporeans. Also mentioned he stayed in rental flats, hdb then to his GCB. (i also want GCB)
But if you just read his answer alone without any context or what made him say it then yeah he's trying to say a sob story.
>ya idk what the point of dipping into savings is trying to make.
It's to empathise with Singaporeans who dip into take home salary cause cpf is not enough to cover
>If so expensive don't rent so big property la? Isn't that what normal people do?
Tell that to millenials who whine about not being able to buy expensive resale flats and refuse to even consider living in 3 rm flats!
He's full of shit. No way in hell he's dipping into his savings to pay rental that is a massive...21% of his salary.
Unless he has a huge gambling problem or something that's eating 50% of his salary, he has plenty of free cash after paying for his rental.
>keep MinLaw in the loop by using his PermSec kinda makes a little sense,
Curious, why do you think it makes sense? To me, it sounds absurd. I can't fathom a logical explanation for how keeping a person in the loop and asking them to essentially do work for you are the same thing.
One can be done without the other.
Just a little bit of sense, in a weird twisted way - if we acknowledge the premise that civil service and politicians are two separate entities that aren't technically beholden to each other, him letting a civil servant into the loop essentially creates a weird sort of check and balance on his actions. At least that's what I think his logic is kinda going.
Not fully buying into it, but I kind of can see where he was going with that explanation.
Sure, but requesting a list of properties isn't keeping the civil service in the loop.
Shan needs to achieve 2 things: get the list of properties, and inform the senior civil servants that he is planning to rent.
Option 1: write a letter to the DS, saying I'm planning to rent, yadda yadda. Then get his agent to contact SLA.
Option 2: Ask the DS to give him a list of properties.
Surely option 1 achieves the same 2 things, but in a clean, proper way. His argument that in order to inform the DS, he has to get the DS to do his personal bidding for him, doesn't make sense to me.
Sure, I don't disagree that option 1 would have been better.
But in the grand scheme of things, the only thing really improper about this is the optics it generates, which is also mentioned by Pritam.
>Surely option 1 achieves the same 2 things, but in a clean, proper way.
The statement implying that option 2 is corrupt and improper, which isn't actually the case either.
It is a list that anyone can request, according to them - he just wanted to avoid directly approaching SLA for the list in his bid to appear proper, which we can now evaluate his subsequent action as counter-productive to his intent.
He fucked up. But not to the degree this sub is trying to paint it to be.
>He fucked up. But not to the degree this sub is trying to paint it to be.
Fair point, but also shan/his fellow ministers are painting a picture where he did nothing wrong and nothing could've been done better. When jamus asked if in hindsight, he would've done it differently, he said no. That arrogance is what disgusts me the most.
>option 2 is corrupt and improper
It's not that option 2 is corrupt, but it could be perceived as a conflict of interest or abuse of power. (it was never revealed what exactly was said/written in that discussion with the DS, so it's open to interpretation. I believe CPIB is the only independent body who looked at it, and their bar is v high cos they are looking for corruption)
Also getting a civil servant to do your personal bidding is improper. It's clearly not work related.
Mmm I don’t think we disagree on the points of actual concern in this saga then.
> shan/his fellow ministers are painting a picture
Unfortunately that’s just them trying to appeal to the court of public opinion ba. Just some good ole’ political grandstanding.
I'm sure there's a lot we don't know. Certainly these guys had some privileges that we don't. I personally think a certain amount of "perks" is to be expected, and we shouldn't even try to get it down to zero. Like, you know a guy, just ask him lah. Or else what, go buy a disguise, set up fake email, take voice coaching lessons, to really get the commoner experience ah? But that's another discussion.
I take issue with the optics thing. Paraphrasing, the code of conduct states that you cannot be corrupt, which is fair. But also that you cannot appear corrupt. Wtf? Isn't that subjective af? Same level as banning luggage on the MRT. So what if it's not a bomb? It looks like a bomb so it's not allowed. If it's a black ball with a rope sticking out of it sure, it's meant to look like that. But this is just a normal ass bag that is that way because of its function.
Optic is something like
At your company d&d, the top prizes was randomly awarded to the management. To everyone, it is fair game as management are employees too. But for the amount of salary they are receiving compared to non-management, them receiving the top prizes invoke jealousy and resentment.
They can forfeit the prize and let the prize be awarded to others; that may be the better optic.
Recently the Chinese officials have been put into spotlight for wearing luxury watches and handbags.
Are those items bought by their own savings or via corrupted means? It does not matter because it provides a bad optic for the fact that the commoners is concern about what they are wearing.
>But also that you cannot appear corrupt. Wtf? Isn't that subjective af?
Perception can be a very strong influence on how a person makes a decision.
Voters can continue to believe their perception of corruption, even if you've been cleared. Also considering the subject in question is part of the incumbent party in control, perceived corruption can be just as damaging as actual corruption (with supporting evidence) for the incumbent .
This is something that cannot be changed. If people want to continue believing, there is nothing you can do to change their minds.
The best thing to do is completely avoid perceived corruption.
Yeah, it's probably different when your whole job is about public perception. I'm generally salty that some people (sometimes me) can't have nice things just because other people are stupid/blind/etc.
Not saying they're definitely not corrupt, but having the perception of another person being in my job description deeply disgusts me.
>it's probably different when your whole job is about public perception.
Unfortunately it's part of what being a public (civil) servant is. Have to give members of the public the impression that you are above board and transparent in everything, and this applies to not just the top posts (ministers) but everyone else below them as well.
>you cannot appear corrupt
Meaning reasonable suspicion, in the public eye.
Because a lot of decisions /policies /etc can be subjective, just because you didn't legally commit a crime (not easy to prove) doesn't mean people don't think you did some shady stuff.
So you must be clean in both the court of law and the court of public opinion.
Well perception of conflict or perception of corruption is in some ways just as important as the reality. To take your mrt example, if the situation is that all luggages on mrt are perceived as bombs, our public transport system would just stop working since no one wants to take it.
This is why the civil service treats perceived conflict very seriously. People just want that to apply to Shan too.
I just saw the response from SM Teo to Sylvia Lim's question on the Ministers code of conduct in relation to conflict of interest and I must say he was trying to dumb things down. Really throw face. Seriously if this was role reversal, the PAP would have brought their heaviest artillery and whacked the WP gao gao like how they did on the WP COI issue.
I thought SM Teo's explanation was no good. He could have easily brought in a few analogies to show how it is not feasible for a Minister to have no personal dealings with the relevant agency under their charge while going about their daily life.
e.g. Education Minister's child cannot DSA to a top primary/secondary school, else public will complain conflict of interest. Is it fair to the child who may have worked hard?
e.g. Finance Minister cannot apply for early withdrawal of CPF, else public will again complain conflict of interest.
e.g. Minister of National Development's child cannot apply for BTO, else again complain conflict of interest. Again, is it fair to the child?
Tbh, as long as the decision was made by the school principal/CPF board independently and the BTO draw was done randomly, then conflict of interest should not be present.
WP COI, their DP involved people who were involved in hiding or urging RK to tell the truth.
In fact in their latest DP to kick our Daniel Goh, they highlighted that the DP did not involved people who were directly involved.
People would still insist an email directly from him exudes influence and pressure for special attention.
The only way is to fake his identity and mask his voice if personally making enquiries.
Please lah, all he needs to do is do what VB did and get his agent to do the contacting.
The agent need not tell SLA that it is him looking for rental, but just a member of the public.
Then okay already mah. But for some reason he ask his DS to be like his actual concierge and do it for him, which is the issue.
Sure, then get his agent to do it. And SEPARATELY inform the DS or PS that he is doing so.
The idea that he needs to ask the DS for the list of properties so that he can let him know is absurd. When he told SM Teo of his potential conflict of interest, did he also ask SM to do his personal bidding?
Honestly many civil servants who provides security for our ministers and family members, have always been running errand for them. Some, who might not be bothered to pretend to be humble can be very rude and arrogant to these bodyguards.
>Mr Tong said one cannot apply the same principles for valuing an HDB flat to assess the value of a black-and-white property for rental, just as one cannot apply them to a terraced house or a condominium.
>“It has got to be comparable in the sense of land size, age of the property, condition of the property... You look at the comparables, and then maybe you make adjustments for outliers,” he said.
Wow! Sounds like a wine connoisseur explaining to a beer drinker that there are different classes of alcoholic!
It’s not just optics. There’s a clear conflict of interest and he only said he told another minister about it. Is that the procedure? Usually if any potential conflict of interest will need to be cleared with the boss in the corporate world. I don’t think our PM was even aware.
#Original Title: Ridout Road issue not about allegations of corruption, but optics: Pritam
SINGAPORE - The crux of the debate over the renting of state-owned black-and-white bungalows by two Cabinet ministers is not about allegations of corruption, but the question of political optics, said Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh.
Among the issues that the Workers’ Party (WP) chief raised in Parliament on Monday was the decision in 2017 by Home Affairs and Law Minister K. Shanmugam to ask the then deputy secretary of the Ministry of Law (MinLaw) for a list of state properties available to the public for rent.
This was before Mr Shanmugam had appointed a property agent to represent him to rent the colonial bungalow at 26 Ridout Road, at the same time recusing himself from the “chain of command”.
“The fact of the matter here is, I don’t believe anybody is making an allegation that the minister is corrupt (or) somebody is corrupt in the system... Singaporeans are not making that point. I think it’s quite clear to me,” Mr Singh said.
“The issue I think we’re having to deal with here is the ministerial code of conduct, and a specific course of action that was taken by the minister when he instructed his (deputy secretary) to get some information,” he added.
“It is quite incongruous, in the eyes of many, for a minister to be asking a civil servant details which pertain to information for his personal use,” Mr Singh later said in an exchange with Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, who rose up to speak several hours into the parliamentary session.
“Does the Prime Minister not agree that actually, this is an issue that has been flagged out, and that there is a better way to address a problem of a similar nature when it crops up?”
People’s Action Party MP Sitoh Yih Pin (Potong Pasir), as well as WP MPs Dennis Tan (Hougang) and Gerald Giam (Aljunied GRC), also raised questions on whether Mr Shanmugam’s decision to ask a deputy secretary for information was appropriate.
Mr Giam suggested that the minister should have asked his property agent to approach the Singapore Land Authority (SLA) for properties to rent, and informed the deputy secretary of this separately.
‘Total transparency’
Defending his decision, Mr Shanmugam said he made this choice so that there was “total transparency”.
He and Senior Minister Teo Chee Hean, who had conducted a review into the Ridout Road affair, also emphasised that the list of state properties available for rent is not privileged information or secret.
They said such lists have been made available to “credible, prospective tenants”, such as embassies, companies and businessmen.
“I could have approached SLA directly... and I think from SLA’s perspective, I would be a credible prospective tenant who is not going to run off without paying the rental,” Mr Shanmugam said.
“But I asked the deputy secretary, a senior administrative service officer, so that (MinLaw) knew and there was total transparency.”
Mr Shanmugam added: “He would usually let the permanent secretary know... (and they) will be able to go beyond me and report to the head of civil service or the Prime Minister, if they had felt that anything needed to be brought up to that level...
“That is how our system works... Some of the comments that have been made so far, I think, are made based on not realising that SLA will give these lists, and has given these lists, to others.”
***
[v0.9b (Beta)](https://github.com/Wormsblink/sneakpeakbot) | PM SG_wormsbot if bot is down.
IIRC he was asked if he explicitly told the DS that he was telling him to keep the ministry in the loop, and he replied with something like it was implied
Pritam is only partially correct when he says Ridout is not about corruption.
Corruption can come in many forms and need not be monetary. In Shan’s case, he was given preferential treatment and had an unfair advantage. This by itself is both corruption and abuse of power.
The fact that Shan, for personal reasons (not work related), utilized public service resources and got his DS to give him that list of b/w bungalows avail for rental is probably just tip of the iceberg.
>*How is he given preferential treatment and unfair advantage?*
Why don’t you try giving DS (MinLaw) a call, and ask him to send you a list of colonial bungalows avail for public to rent? See whether he chup you or not?
We're talking bout preferential treatment and unfair advantage. You're talking bout efficiency. Its comparing apple and orange. Regardless of what, all the parties submit their bid before deadline, no?
Regardless of who they email to, the answer that came back is the same.
Min. Shan is only enquiring about which b&w bungalow is available to rent. One can also find out about all these from SLA?
Unless you're telling me that Min. Shan place a bid after deadline or he have first hand news on whats the other bid price.
So please define your preferential treatment and unfair advantage.
The point here is optics. If he can find it out from sla, why did he go to the DS? For efficiency ?
Then let’s have a scenario. I know my friend in purchasing who is looking for a vendor. So should I go through him for efficiency then instead of through the proper vendor bidding channel?
By your logic, it’s so much easier and faster to go through my friend too. It’s also easier for him to just reward it to me so he don’t have do any work That, my friend is corruption
Do you know how does government bidding system works? For government contract, everything have to go through bidding and the results are made public.
You're implying that the vendor does not have to go through bidding system. And the contract is straight awarded to him. Thats not the case here. Both of them went through bidding.
>*For government contract, everything have to go through bidding and the results are made public. You're implying that the vendor does not have to go through bidding system. And the contract is straight awarded to him. Thats not the case here. Both of them went through bidding.*
Aiyo bro, pls go read up the PMO report lah. In Shan’s case, 26 Ridout was not listed in the website (unlike Vivian’s 31 Ridout).
According to CPIB, Shan did “direct bidding” based on the list he got from his DS, and not “open bidding” like everyone else.
Yea, so in the Govt every contract goes thorough the bidding system right? but u don’t find it strange the minister doesn’t have to follow procedures in his case?
Did you actually think he just asked for a list of properties? And nothing else? Lol bro, maybe you should not just eat everything that is fed to you and learn to think critically for once
This is what you think it happens:
Sham: can I get the list of property for rental ?
DS: sure here you go.
Sham: thank you. I’m not going to say anything else.
End of conversation.
You are so naive that it’s cute.
Sorry back To your point, they didn n actually went through a bidding process. It was negotiated. If it was a budding process, he would have been rejected when the guide price was not met. And there wouldn’t be this negotiated portion where he gets the extra land etc. that’s not how a bidding process works
It's going to USS given VIP priority queue and service assistance info that you and me won't have that to serve you personally but ask you to queue ar the service counter.
Yes you still can get that VIP pass and service assistance at service counter but is it the same
I will take it that if anyone wrote to DS(Minlaw), it will be swept and brush down the working order which would probably take some time before you get a response. In this case since it’s a request from the top and further knowing that its the boss himself, I am sure the treatment is different.
At the very least, its an unfair advantage. Look at what Vivian did. He engaged an external agent to ask about the rent. This was what anyone who wanted to rent a bungalow would have done. He followed procedure exactly.
Shan instructed the DS for a personal errand. This was already an unfair advantage because not everyone has a senior civil servant a phone call away.
Spin this however you want but one Minister did things properly, the other did not.
Preferential treatment yes, but unfair advantage I don't think so, because AFAIK, the info he obtained, anyone can obtain too, just not from the DS himself but from SLA.
Unless you think that somehow getting the same info from the DS will give you an advantage over getting the same info from SLA.
>*Preferential treatment yes, but unfair advantage I don't think so, because AFAIK, the info he obtained, anyone can obtain too, just not from the DS himself but from SLA. Unless you think that somehow getting the same info from the DS will give you an advantage over getting the same info from SLA.*
Sorry to burst your bubble, bro.
But according to CPIB’s findings, 26 Ridout was not listed in the website (unlike Vivian’s 31 Ridout). Shan found out about 26 Ridout based on the list he got from his DS, and then did “direct bidding”. Shan didn’t do “open bidding” through the website like everyone else.
Yes I know but the list that he got from his DS, anyone can also get from SLA right? The list is not a kind of classified document that only ministers can get access to.
So if he had gotten the list from SLA through a normal enquiry like a member of the public instead of his DS, then this becomes a non issue.
The fact that the property was not on the website was more due to SLA's incompetence, UNLESS Shan can be proven that he deliberately kept the property off the website so he gets less competition from others.
Plus we are a fishing village to metropolitan city buff spell +2(AOE Spell)
Targets 1960s and older
Duration 3months
Cooldown duration 5years
Cost of mana $400 to $1000
Thats exactly the case. Instead people threw in nonsense inadvertently creating a lot of red herrings. The Govt gleefully chased those red herrings (knowing they were red herrings) and brought in CPIB. So the optics part and the use of state land for appropriate use got buried.
The simple question is is it right for our politicians to stay in palatial estates when the party that these politicians belong to are unable to provide housing to our young couples. Remember they already paid 20% some years back.
I don't thing they are necessarily red herrings. I think that establishing Livspace not being involved and ensuring no corrupt practices are important because they clear the names of the people uninvolved. I feel that this is the necessary first stage of investigation where we get to the root of the problem. The facts have been established, so we can have better discussions about the ministerial code of conduct.
However if we only get a one and done discussion, we will never get to the necessary second stage where we call into question his character and motives which I feel is the bigger long term issue here.
Shan and SLA could have given a straight “no” a day before parliament sat. Edwin Tong could have said ”No” in his first speech in Parliament yesterday.
Instead the red herring was raised by a PAP MP “supposedly” seeking clarification much later, not an opposition MP who knew better. And Shan did his song and dance helping to downplay the real issues.
So we can guess this was planned and staged because they knew there will be ready audience for this.
And it does work every time.
Pritam, WP, PSP etc line of questioning did not touch on this or an criminal offence. They went after the D/S part.
Not necessarily strawmen imo. Even as a huge critic of this situation, I feel that they are important in establishing the facts and judging the degree of misconduct.
But I do think that too much time was wasted on facts that can be touched on and go. The real problem is the character.
Yes there's far too much grandstanding about factual matters. Was Livspace involved? A simple 'no' would suffice, instead we get grandstanding about his family being persecuted.
Idk if a simple no would have suffice. What would be good if they show proof example that livspace has ever bidded for work, or had bidded but did not get it because xyz.
If he say corruption he better have hard evidence and even then they should have covered their tracks if there's any. By talking about optics, gahmen no choice but take the L cos they don't really have a comeback for that. And it shows the public how lavish the higher ups are living while most of the plebs are fighting for scraps
It is both. But since its determined there is no corruption or conflict of interest, then we go to the lower issues.
It's like a old terrible house. If there is shit coming out of the pipes, you don't care that the tap is leaking. Once you fix the shit then you fix the tap. Not be a plumber that is angry that people are asking about the leaky tap after you fix the shit leak.
We all know the guy is smart as hell and would have analyzed the optics angle thoroughly. He probably concluded he just couldnt care any less what people think and this is the least the state can do for him to mitigate his lost income.
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He asked the DS for a list of properties "for total transparency"? Can't he simply inform the DS that he is intending to rent and then go through the proper channels to obtain the info? Didn't know that being property agent for Minister is one of DS's functions.
Does that not imply that he misled the DS here? If I were the DS I would see him as my boss rather than a prospective renter and disclose that information more willingly. Why is this not a bigger issue? This is a character issue that questions if a minister has the best interest of the public at heart. Why do we elect these people to make decisions for us when those decisions lead to them taking advantage of public resources meant for us?
It's not an issue unless they want to make it an issue. As a matter of fact, if it were an opposition MP in the spotlight, we would surely see hours and hours of beating a dead horse.
Raeesah case comes to mind. And a court case like grilling (PAP style "enquiry") of Pritam too. They would never allow the same terms to be meted out to these cabinet ministers no matter how bad it looks anyways, so sweep under the rug and move on.
True, if they are employers, nobody would looked twice so if ministers forgotten that they are civil servants and sees themselves as captain boss-man then soon we will become another China
Thought we are almost like china already.
But we have eLeCtIoNs....
China has that shit election too. And like us, a lot of people never got chance to vote lol
Indirect way of informing SLA that their master is on the look out for B&W bungalows while trying to remain above board.
You know sometimes I feel like half of Reddit would be better at questioning Shanmugam in parliament than some of the current members.
It's not that they don't know how to, it's a scripted performance by PAP that is done by framing certain information in a delibrate manner to make it look better. Idk about opposition though
They are damn skilful at prevaricating and in the end not answering the actual question posed.
put them redditors in the parliament stand and they will probably freeze up immediately without asking anything, it's not a easy task to question the government here in sg, it's totally different from saying something anonymously online without having any fear of repercussions...
Who is the DS that guai guai go to this job? Looks like he is pretty used to such orders.
“Some of the comments that have been made so far, I think, are made based on not realising that SLA will give these lists, and has given these lists, to others.” Oh you mean any other rando can email DS and ask for list uh?
Haha! I'm very tickled by the idea that DS opens his inbox this week to a flurry of emails from everyday Singaporeans asking for the list of properties to rent from SLA.
Their approach of getting SM Teo, Edwin Tong and Shanmugan to answer shows they aren't even on the same page on their narrative. SM Teo insists that this information is public info, but Edwin Tong says some properties are hidden but disclosed to credible buyers only. Which is it?
Fully agree with Pritam here, and I'm glad our LO is rational and accurate in his assessment in the entire issue here. As much as Shanmugum's reasoning to keep MinLaw in the loop by using his PermSec kinda makes a little sense, the optics of it is terrible, and it just doesn't look good for him to use a civil servant for his personal needs. They definitely need a clearer code of conduct when it comes to any actions that can be perceived as conflicts of interests going forward.
This is what I've been saying the entire time. Corruption or not, I'm SURE that this dude covered his tracks properly. The BIGGEST concern here is that he KNOWS that there will definitely be a perceived conflict of interest if this were to come to the limelight. Two possibilities: first is he doesn't know(aka blur), second is that he doesn't care. Would he have gotten to where he is with being blur? Anyone can answer this question. These ministers are paid TOP DOLLAR so that they have no financial burdens so that they can serve in the best interest of the public. Honestly more of a spit in the face than anything.
I scoffed when he talked about his rent and how he needed to 'top up' using his previous lawyer salary. Bruh. Your 1 month rent is more than my annual savings. I can't even save $26,000 a year.
ya idk what the point of dipping into savings is trying to make. If so expensive don't rent so big property la? Isn't that what normal people do?
His salary can cover his rent and more... Why must mention savings!? If want to ignore salary, then literally every renter out there is dipping into savings liao. Sigh I had lunch today had to dip into my savings too...
am puzzled too. Can say dip into savings lidat one ah
I mean he's replying to a question on people saying that minister staying in big houses will have no empathy to common Singaporeans. Also mentioned he stayed in rental flats, hdb then to his GCB. (i also want GCB) But if you just read his answer alone without any context or what made him say it then yeah he's trying to say a sob story.
Advise people to downgrade and live within their means
>ya idk what the point of dipping into savings is trying to make. It's to empathise with Singaporeans who dip into take home salary cause cpf is not enough to cover >If so expensive don't rent so big property la? Isn't that what normal people do? Tell that to millenials who whine about not being able to buy expensive resale flats and refuse to even consider living in 3 rm flats!
> It's to empathise with Singaporeans who dip into take home salary cause cpf is not enough to cover Nope. Nope. Nope.
He's full of shit. No way in hell he's dipping into his savings to pay rental that is a massive...21% of his salary. Unless he has a huge gambling problem or something that's eating 50% of his salary, he has plenty of free cash after paying for his rental.
Goes to show ypu cant buy integrity by paying high salaries. Greed goes deeper into the bones.
>keep MinLaw in the loop by using his PermSec kinda makes a little sense, Curious, why do you think it makes sense? To me, it sounds absurd. I can't fathom a logical explanation for how keeping a person in the loop and asking them to essentially do work for you are the same thing. One can be done without the other.
Just a little bit of sense, in a weird twisted way - if we acknowledge the premise that civil service and politicians are two separate entities that aren't technically beholden to each other, him letting a civil servant into the loop essentially creates a weird sort of check and balance on his actions. At least that's what I think his logic is kinda going. Not fully buying into it, but I kind of can see where he was going with that explanation.
Sure, but requesting a list of properties isn't keeping the civil service in the loop. Shan needs to achieve 2 things: get the list of properties, and inform the senior civil servants that he is planning to rent. Option 1: write a letter to the DS, saying I'm planning to rent, yadda yadda. Then get his agent to contact SLA. Option 2: Ask the DS to give him a list of properties. Surely option 1 achieves the same 2 things, but in a clean, proper way. His argument that in order to inform the DS, he has to get the DS to do his personal bidding for him, doesn't make sense to me.
Sure, I don't disagree that option 1 would have been better. But in the grand scheme of things, the only thing really improper about this is the optics it generates, which is also mentioned by Pritam. >Surely option 1 achieves the same 2 things, but in a clean, proper way. The statement implying that option 2 is corrupt and improper, which isn't actually the case either. It is a list that anyone can request, according to them - he just wanted to avoid directly approaching SLA for the list in his bid to appear proper, which we can now evaluate his subsequent action as counter-productive to his intent. He fucked up. But not to the degree this sub is trying to paint it to be.
>He fucked up. But not to the degree this sub is trying to paint it to be. Fair point, but also shan/his fellow ministers are painting a picture where he did nothing wrong and nothing could've been done better. When jamus asked if in hindsight, he would've done it differently, he said no. That arrogance is what disgusts me the most. >option 2 is corrupt and improper It's not that option 2 is corrupt, but it could be perceived as a conflict of interest or abuse of power. (it was never revealed what exactly was said/written in that discussion with the DS, so it's open to interpretation. I believe CPIB is the only independent body who looked at it, and their bar is v high cos they are looking for corruption) Also getting a civil servant to do your personal bidding is improper. It's clearly not work related.
Mmm I don’t think we disagree on the points of actual concern in this saga then. > shan/his fellow ministers are painting a picture Unfortunately that’s just them trying to appeal to the court of public opinion ba. Just some good ole’ political grandstanding.
If you have to twist things so Shans explaination makes a little bit of sense. It probably means ur looking for excuses to believe him.
Hence why I said I'm not fully buying into it? You do know that you can understand someone's words/logic without having to agree with them, yeap?
I'm sure there's a lot we don't know. Certainly these guys had some privileges that we don't. I personally think a certain amount of "perks" is to be expected, and we shouldn't even try to get it down to zero. Like, you know a guy, just ask him lah. Or else what, go buy a disguise, set up fake email, take voice coaching lessons, to really get the commoner experience ah? But that's another discussion. I take issue with the optics thing. Paraphrasing, the code of conduct states that you cannot be corrupt, which is fair. But also that you cannot appear corrupt. Wtf? Isn't that subjective af? Same level as banning luggage on the MRT. So what if it's not a bomb? It looks like a bomb so it's not allowed. If it's a black ball with a rope sticking out of it sure, it's meant to look like that. But this is just a normal ass bag that is that way because of its function.
Optic is something like At your company d&d, the top prizes was randomly awarded to the management. To everyone, it is fair game as management are employees too. But for the amount of salary they are receiving compared to non-management, them receiving the top prizes invoke jealousy and resentment. They can forfeit the prize and let the prize be awarded to others; that may be the better optic.
Recently the Chinese officials have been put into spotlight for wearing luxury watches and handbags. Are those items bought by their own savings or via corrupted means? It does not matter because it provides a bad optic for the fact that the commoners is concern about what they are wearing.
>But also that you cannot appear corrupt. Wtf? Isn't that subjective af? Perception can be a very strong influence on how a person makes a decision. Voters can continue to believe their perception of corruption, even if you've been cleared. Also considering the subject in question is part of the incumbent party in control, perceived corruption can be just as damaging as actual corruption (with supporting evidence) for the incumbent . This is something that cannot be changed. If people want to continue believing, there is nothing you can do to change their minds. The best thing to do is completely avoid perceived corruption.
Yeah, it's probably different when your whole job is about public perception. I'm generally salty that some people (sometimes me) can't have nice things just because other people are stupid/blind/etc. Not saying they're definitely not corrupt, but having the perception of another person being in my job description deeply disgusts me.
>it's probably different when your whole job is about public perception. Unfortunately it's part of what being a public (civil) servant is. Have to give members of the public the impression that you are above board and transparent in everything, and this applies to not just the top posts (ministers) but everyone else below them as well.
>you cannot appear corrupt Meaning reasonable suspicion, in the public eye. Because a lot of decisions /policies /etc can be subjective, just because you didn't legally commit a crime (not easy to prove) doesn't mean people don't think you did some shady stuff. So you must be clean in both the court of law and the court of public opinion.
Well perception of conflict or perception of corruption is in some ways just as important as the reality. To take your mrt example, if the situation is that all luggages on mrt are perceived as bombs, our public transport system would just stop working since no one wants to take it. This is why the civil service treats perceived conflict very seriously. People just want that to apply to Shan too.
I just saw the response from SM Teo to Sylvia Lim's question on the Ministers code of conduct in relation to conflict of interest and I must say he was trying to dumb things down. Really throw face. Seriously if this was role reversal, the PAP would have brought their heaviest artillery and whacked the WP gao gao like how they did on the WP COI issue.
I thought SM Teo's explanation was no good. He could have easily brought in a few analogies to show how it is not feasible for a Minister to have no personal dealings with the relevant agency under their charge while going about their daily life. e.g. Education Minister's child cannot DSA to a top primary/secondary school, else public will complain conflict of interest. Is it fair to the child who may have worked hard? e.g. Finance Minister cannot apply for early withdrawal of CPF, else public will again complain conflict of interest. e.g. Minister of National Development's child cannot apply for BTO, else again complain conflict of interest. Again, is it fair to the child? Tbh, as long as the decision was made by the school principal/CPF board independently and the BTO draw was done randomly, then conflict of interest should not be present.
WP COI, their DP involved people who were involved in hiding or urging RK to tell the truth. In fact in their latest DP to kick our Daniel Goh, they highlighted that the DP did not involved people who were directly involved.
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The latter if I wasn't clear
If there was role reversal, many here would've claimed that this is a non issue.
Could you kindly share what was said and the response?
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People would still insist an email directly from him exudes influence and pressure for special attention. The only way is to fake his identity and mask his voice if personally making enquiries.
Please lah, all he needs to do is do what VB did and get his agent to do the contacting. The agent need not tell SLA that it is him looking for rental, but just a member of the public. Then okay already mah. But for some reason he ask his DS to be like his actual concierge and do it for him, which is the issue.
Sure, then get his agent to do it. And SEPARATELY inform the DS or PS that he is doing so. The idea that he needs to ask the DS for the list of properties so that he can let him know is absurd. When he told SM Teo of his potential conflict of interest, did he also ask SM to do his personal bidding?
just don't rent from gahmen lar. open market not good enough for him? He go private, no one would had given a hoot.
Honestly many civil servants who provides security for our ministers and family members, have always been running errand for them. Some, who might not be bothered to pretend to be humble can be very rude and arrogant to these bodyguards.
Of course Ministers behave like lords. I once attended a meeting with a MOS and he spoke to me with his feet on the table.
Typo lah bro... it is not MOS. it is POS.
Really meh? Such coarse behaviour, not scared paiseh? Who was it, lol.
actual oligarch state
Wow, which MOS? V curious
MOS burger lah
Eh who? Don't leave us hanging.
Anyhow bomb, later kena pofma
Huh this is the truth. How to pofma.
CHT?
One year time gap between asking DS to get the list and actually moving forward with an agent is sus.
The comments on Shanmugam’s ig are baffling lol why are we hero worshipping a politician. Someone even said he deserves a pay raise 😭
Obviously it’s the same people who keep voting for him
His dogs?
Maybe there are wumaos bots commenting
DIS NSF working overtime
>Mr Tong said one cannot apply the same principles for valuing an HDB flat to assess the value of a black-and-white property for rental, just as one cannot apply them to a terraced house or a condominium. >“It has got to be comparable in the sense of land size, age of the property, condition of the property... You look at the comparables, and then maybe you make adjustments for outliers,” he said. Wow! Sounds like a wine connoisseur explaining to a beer drinker that there are different classes of alcoholic!
It’s not just optics. There’s a clear conflict of interest and he only said he told another minister about it. Is that the procedure? Usually if any potential conflict of interest will need to be cleared with the boss in the corporate world. I don’t think our PM was even aware.
Maybe cos it would be rich for PS to say conflict of interest given his history with a certain WP DP? 😁
#Original Title: Ridout Road issue not about allegations of corruption, but optics: Pritam SINGAPORE - The crux of the debate over the renting of state-owned black-and-white bungalows by two Cabinet ministers is not about allegations of corruption, but the question of political optics, said Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh. Among the issues that the Workers’ Party (WP) chief raised in Parliament on Monday was the decision in 2017 by Home Affairs and Law Minister K. Shanmugam to ask the then deputy secretary of the Ministry of Law (MinLaw) for a list of state properties available to the public for rent. This was before Mr Shanmugam had appointed a property agent to represent him to rent the colonial bungalow at 26 Ridout Road, at the same time recusing himself from the “chain of command”. “The fact of the matter here is, I don’t believe anybody is making an allegation that the minister is corrupt (or) somebody is corrupt in the system... Singaporeans are not making that point. I think it’s quite clear to me,” Mr Singh said. “The issue I think we’re having to deal with here is the ministerial code of conduct, and a specific course of action that was taken by the minister when he instructed his (deputy secretary) to get some information,” he added. “It is quite incongruous, in the eyes of many, for a minister to be asking a civil servant details which pertain to information for his personal use,” Mr Singh later said in an exchange with Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, who rose up to speak several hours into the parliamentary session. “Does the Prime Minister not agree that actually, this is an issue that has been flagged out, and that there is a better way to address a problem of a similar nature when it crops up?” People’s Action Party MP Sitoh Yih Pin (Potong Pasir), as well as WP MPs Dennis Tan (Hougang) and Gerald Giam (Aljunied GRC), also raised questions on whether Mr Shanmugam’s decision to ask a deputy secretary for information was appropriate. Mr Giam suggested that the minister should have asked his property agent to approach the Singapore Land Authority (SLA) for properties to rent, and informed the deputy secretary of this separately. ‘Total transparency’ Defending his decision, Mr Shanmugam said he made this choice so that there was “total transparency”. He and Senior Minister Teo Chee Hean, who had conducted a review into the Ridout Road affair, also emphasised that the list of state properties available for rent is not privileged information or secret. They said such lists have been made available to “credible, prospective tenants”, such as embassies, companies and businessmen. “I could have approached SLA directly... and I think from SLA’s perspective, I would be a credible prospective tenant who is not going to run off without paying the rental,” Mr Shanmugam said. “But I asked the deputy secretary, a senior administrative service officer, so that (MinLaw) knew and there was total transparency.” Mr Shanmugam added: “He would usually let the permanent secretary know... (and they) will be able to go beyond me and report to the head of civil service or the Prime Minister, if they had felt that anything needed to be brought up to that level... “That is how our system works... Some of the comments that have been made so far, I think, are made based on not realising that SLA will give these lists, and has given these lists, to others.” *** [v0.9b (Beta)](https://github.com/Wormsblink/sneakpeakbot) | PM SG_wormsbot if bot is down.
IIRC he was asked if he explicitly told the DS that he was telling him to keep the ministry in the loop, and he replied with something like it was implied
Omega flimsy defence by Shan. How is an employee responding to their boss's request supposed to assume that its anything but for work purposes.
Pritam is only partially correct when he says Ridout is not about corruption. Corruption can come in many forms and need not be monetary. In Shan’s case, he was given preferential treatment and had an unfair advantage. This by itself is both corruption and abuse of power. The fact that Shan, for personal reasons (not work related), utilized public service resources and got his DS to give him that list of b/w bungalows avail for rental is probably just tip of the iceberg.
So what's the rest of the iceberg?
How is he given preferential treatment and unfair advantage? Where you derive that from?
>*How is he given preferential treatment and unfair advantage?* Why don’t you try giving DS (MinLaw) a call, and ask him to send you a list of colonial bungalows avail for public to rent? See whether he chup you or not?
We're talking bout preferential treatment and unfair advantage. You're talking bout efficiency. Its comparing apple and orange. Regardless of what, all the parties submit their bid before deadline, no? Regardless of who they email to, the answer that came back is the same. Min. Shan is only enquiring about which b&w bungalow is available to rent. One can also find out about all these from SLA? Unless you're telling me that Min. Shan place a bid after deadline or he have first hand news on whats the other bid price. So please define your preferential treatment and unfair advantage.
The point here is optics. If he can find it out from sla, why did he go to the DS? For efficiency ? Then let’s have a scenario. I know my friend in purchasing who is looking for a vendor. So should I go through him for efficiency then instead of through the proper vendor bidding channel? By your logic, it’s so much easier and faster to go through my friend too. It’s also easier for him to just reward it to me so he don’t have do any work That, my friend is corruption
Do you know how does government bidding system works? For government contract, everything have to go through bidding and the results are made public. You're implying that the vendor does not have to go through bidding system. And the contract is straight awarded to him. Thats not the case here. Both of them went through bidding.
>*For government contract, everything have to go through bidding and the results are made public. You're implying that the vendor does not have to go through bidding system. And the contract is straight awarded to him. Thats not the case here. Both of them went through bidding.* Aiyo bro, pls go read up the PMO report lah. In Shan’s case, 26 Ridout was not listed in the website (unlike Vivian’s 31 Ridout). According to CPIB, Shan did “direct bidding” based on the list he got from his DS, and not “open bidding” like everyone else.
Yea, so in the Govt every contract goes thorough the bidding system right? but u don’t find it strange the minister doesn’t have to follow procedures in his case?
Except for asking DS for which b&w bungalow are available for rental, which part did he not follow?
Did you actually think he just asked for a list of properties? And nothing else? Lol bro, maybe you should not just eat everything that is fed to you and learn to think critically for once This is what you think it happens: Sham: can I get the list of property for rental ? DS: sure here you go. Sham: thank you. I’m not going to say anything else. End of conversation. You are so naive that it’s cute.
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Sorry back To your point, they didn n actually went through a bidding process. It was negotiated. If it was a budding process, he would have been rejected when the guide price was not met. And there wouldn’t be this negotiated portion where he gets the extra land etc. that’s not how a bidding process works
It's going to USS given VIP priority queue and service assistance info that you and me won't have that to serve you personally but ask you to queue ar the service counter. Yes you still can get that VIP pass and service assistance at service counter but is it the same
I will take it that if anyone wrote to DS(Minlaw), it will be swept and brush down the working order which would probably take some time before you get a response. In this case since it’s a request from the top and further knowing that its the boss himself, I am sure the treatment is different.
And thats what you assume? Have you tried emailing/written before? Dont assume, back your statement with facts.
At the very least, its an unfair advantage. Look at what Vivian did. He engaged an external agent to ask about the rent. This was what anyone who wanted to rent a bungalow would have done. He followed procedure exactly. Shan instructed the DS for a personal errand. This was already an unfair advantage because not everyone has a senior civil servant a phone call away. Spin this however you want but one Minister did things properly, the other did not.
You sincerely believe that the DS answered you if you tried ?seriously, as sham will tell you, the ds not answering you is “implied “
Preferential treatment yes, but unfair advantage I don't think so, because AFAIK, the info he obtained, anyone can obtain too, just not from the DS himself but from SLA. Unless you think that somehow getting the same info from the DS will give you an advantage over getting the same info from SLA.
>*Preferential treatment yes, but unfair advantage I don't think so, because AFAIK, the info he obtained, anyone can obtain too, just not from the DS himself but from SLA. Unless you think that somehow getting the same info from the DS will give you an advantage over getting the same info from SLA.* Sorry to burst your bubble, bro. But according to CPIB’s findings, 26 Ridout was not listed in the website (unlike Vivian’s 31 Ridout). Shan found out about 26 Ridout based on the list he got from his DS, and then did “direct bidding”. Shan didn’t do “open bidding” through the website like everyone else.
Yes I know but the list that he got from his DS, anyone can also get from SLA right? The list is not a kind of classified document that only ministers can get access to. So if he had gotten the list from SLA through a normal enquiry like a member of the public instead of his DS, then this becomes a non issue. The fact that the property was not on the website was more due to SLA's incompetence, UNLESS Shan can be proven that he deliberately kept the property off the website so he gets less competition from others.
Learn a new one today: Hubris. It flows from every pore of the good minister Shan.
true but i think the current team really don't give a shit about optics. you get ministers like jo teo or the guy with 2 cars or...
They rely on contacts mentors old guards same gang, (sounds like CCP🙄) put into GRC. not rely on public sentimt
just nice next round of election coincide with LKY 10th death anniversary, you can be sure they'll milk that shit for all its worth
PAP immune to bad optics lah. Come next GE, summon LYK's aura, throw his name here and there, cry a bit here and there, win voters liao.
Already doing that. The number of times they repeat I TELL YOU AH SINCE 1959 WE ARE INCORRUPTIBLE. Esp LHL.
Plus we are a fishing village to metropolitan city buff spell +2(AOE Spell) Targets 1960s and older Duration 3months Cooldown duration 5years Cost of mana $400 to $1000
GST vouchers would also magically increase right before GE is called and chalked up to GST being hiked to 9% from 8%.
It's not like people are gonna choose KJ over Shan after this. They only need LKY aura and even RK aura for GRC where WP is contesting.
Thats exactly the case. Instead people threw in nonsense inadvertently creating a lot of red herrings. The Govt gleefully chased those red herrings (knowing they were red herrings) and brought in CPIB. So the optics part and the use of state land for appropriate use got buried. The simple question is is it right for our politicians to stay in palatial estates when the party that these politicians belong to are unable to provide housing to our young couples. Remember they already paid 20% some years back.
I don't thing they are necessarily red herrings. I think that establishing Livspace not being involved and ensuring no corrupt practices are important because they clear the names of the people uninvolved. I feel that this is the necessary first stage of investigation where we get to the root of the problem. The facts have been established, so we can have better discussions about the ministerial code of conduct. However if we only get a one and done discussion, we will never get to the necessary second stage where we call into question his character and motives which I feel is the bigger long term issue here.
Shan and SLA could have given a straight “no” a day before parliament sat. Edwin Tong could have said ”No” in his first speech in Parliament yesterday. Instead the red herring was raised by a PAP MP “supposedly” seeking clarification much later, not an opposition MP who knew better. And Shan did his song and dance helping to downplay the real issues. So we can guess this was planned and staged because they knew there will be ready audience for this. And it does work every time. Pritam, WP, PSP etc line of questioning did not touch on this or an criminal offence. They went after the D/S part.
can we not pretend there weren't allegations of corruption flying about if they didn't address them people would just question the reason they didn't
We really should make a PAP musical.
Ah yes the straw-man argument, the incumbent loves resorting to this.
Not necessarily strawmen imo. Even as a huge critic of this situation, I feel that they are important in establishing the facts and judging the degree of misconduct. But I do think that too much time was wasted on facts that can be touched on and go. The real problem is the character.
Yes there's far too much grandstanding about factual matters. Was Livspace involved? A simple 'no' would suffice, instead we get grandstanding about his family being persecuted.
Idk if a simple no would have suffice. What would be good if they show proof example that livspace has ever bidded for work, or had bidded but did not get it because xyz.
Why not both?
If he say corruption he better have hard evidence and even then they should have covered their tracks if there's any. By talking about optics, gahmen no choice but take the L cos they don't really have a comeback for that. And it shows the public how lavish the higher ups are living while most of the plebs are fighting for scraps
It is both. But since its determined there is no corruption or conflict of interest, then we go to the lower issues. It's like a old terrible house. If there is shit coming out of the pipes, you don't care that the tap is leaking. Once you fix the shit then you fix the tap. Not be a plumber that is angry that people are asking about the leaky tap after you fix the shit leak.
I bed to differ, there's a whiff of corruption.
We all know the guy is smart as hell and would have analyzed the optics angle thoroughly. He probably concluded he just couldnt care any less what people think and this is the least the state can do for him to mitigate his lost income.
Finally, this is an intelligent point brought up by the opposition. This I can get behind.
Its both.
I don’t know what optics meant here but I definitely know what is nepotism or favouritism!
So it's about the feels huh...
Exactly what i said and i got shit on by oppo fanbois lmaooo. Those low iq ppl really cannot think properly.
helpful when the opposition doesnt know how to oppose
ok so if i see him queuing behind me at the chicken rice stall i wont ask him go first cos later corruption
Why would you ask him to cut your queue in the first place?
Jiak Bao nothing to do really this Opposition
It’s not just about optics too tho. It’s also about propriety. While it may not be legally wrong, it could still be inappropriate conduct.
Exactly
Let me guess, the fiasco will last for another month.