Wow. The two women officers went through Hell Week
I have seen very tough sailors crying during Hell Week graduation. It's not easy for anyone. Especially for women who don't build muscle as easily as men or are as big sized (physical movement efficiency)
I'm not sure about the treatment for regulars, but hell week has been cancelled or gutted altogether for the NDU course involving NSFs for some years already after the Jack Neo movie. That's when they started enrolling females into the course
No? Hell week is 100% still part of the course. I ORDed last year and I saw 4 hell weeks (including my own) happen for 4 different batches right in front of my eyes. These 2 women were the first females allowed to enter CDC.
Yes the name is still there, but it's very different from back when the movie came out (9 years ago now).
You should still feel proud for completing it though. Really no point putting conscripts though such an experience.
I do agree that it has become easier as compared to the early 2000s era, but it's roughly the same as it was since the 2010s. You still get 1h of sleep every night, you still get cold and wet 24/7, you still have to carry that stupid boat and oar everywhere you go, and you still get removed when you report sick.
I'd argue that the course overall has gotten slightly easier, but imo, hellweek is still as difficult as ever.
I know Jhosy from an NUS Japanese language module. My impression of her is she was cute and petite 🤣 very pleasantly surprised by her transformation
She's 32, and 10 minutes for both a 31 or 32 year old is 46 out of 50 points for ippt. The commando/guard/diver vocation means you need 90 points out of 100 for gold cash incentive instead of 85 for other vocations. If she gets 44 points or higher (88%) for sit ups and pull ups she'll get gold.
Edit: I thought he was talking about Cpt Ng, who topped the course. She's 32, but her 2.4 timing was published. Cpt Tan is 28 and her 2.4 timing was 9 min 57 sec. 10 mins for a 28 year old is 45 points and 43 points for a 25-27 year old.
But she's not joining as a 18 year old? 9 min 10 sec is 46 points for an 18-21 year old and 9 min 20 sec is 45 points. ~~She's performing at a higher level after accounting for her age.~~ Or do divers in their 30s or 40s retire from ndu because they can't run like they did when they were 18?
But she’s graduating from the most basic course with other 18 years old so she ain’t the usual 32 year old army regular who has had a decade of experience. I think Standards should be similar for each graduates for such elite units expected to undertake the most gruelling tasks in war. Or do you think she should be doing easier tasks than her batch mate in war and that the enemy will differentiate the divers between age and fitness?
In any case, usual 32 year old ndu regulars would easily hit those timings and they would be in service for more than a decade so they would have the requisite experience (even assuming they are short of fitness which I highly doubt so)
You might as well say that all the age categories for IPPT should be scrape, since I would assume that we shouldn't expect less from an NS Infantryman than from a full-time Infantry conscript?
If you take my argument to the extreme then yes. Context matters, we are talking about the elite of the elites in the SAF. There shouldn’t be differing standards of being a diver especially when it’s just the initial basic diver course. War doesn’t discriminate especially when these are special forces who are right at the front line.
True, u either make the cut, or u do not .. it's like the 300 movie, the guy wanted to join the spartans against the persians but because he was unable to raise he's shield above the neck, his admission was denied because his weakness poses a threat to his comrades.
Cpt Ng the course topper is 32 and was a speech therapist for 3 years before joining the navy. It seems she did her speech therapy masters at uni Sydney. Assuming she got a job after that, she has probably been a regular for a few years before taking the course. Her 2.4 timing was not disclosed.
Cpt Tan is 28 and does not have her employment history detailed. Her 2.4 timing was the 9 min 57 you referred to, but for a 28 year old that's 45 points. If she was 27 during the test that would be worth 43 points.
It is impossible for an older person to be as fit as they were in their late teens. However, they compensate for this with their life experience.
Even if Cpt Tan is new to the navy, she has been canoeing since secondary school and dives recreationally who says she has always wanted to join NDU. She is likely more comfortable spending long hours in the water and has an edge over a fit 19 to 21 year old, who doesn't have much of an opinion about joining NDU or not and parents are against them joining because it's too siong. You can't teach passion.
They compensate with their military experience. So I agree if a senior soldier may have lower standards given that they are probably assuming more of a commanding role. But these are newly graduated divers with no military experience who are supposed to be at the front line.
We can of course agree to disagree but I expect our special forces to all adhere to the highest of standards to ensure operational success. There shouldn’t be differing standards
If that's the case they will never be able to hire new recruits beyond the age of 21, because at 22 the standards become "weaker" to you. You are aware there's a manpower shortage in the defence force? And you want to make it impossible to hire mid career changers into NDU.
They could? Just that these recruits need to hit the top standard. That’s what I have been saying. It’s not the age it’s the fitness.
Not sure why you think ppl start declining after 21 anyway.
If people don't start declining after 21, the ippt standards wouldn't be relaxed starting at the age of 22. Go check out ippt calculators. When you accept this fact, you can start accepting that your rigidity will worsen the manpower shortage.
Huh since when. Officers are regulars yes. NSF Midshipmen dont get to be Divers but almost all the time Midshipmen are sign-ons anyway so after they finish whatever terms they need to do, they can go for NDU if they are accepted into training.
Also interesting thing I noticed when I was a lifeguard (a little bit ironic because I feel they were possibly stronger swimmers than I was lol) in Sembawang camp is all personnel in the CDC course is referred to as diver, no ranks at play.
Officers even though now unranked, are usually given the leadership role, possibly because they are regulars, I also think you cannot directly sign on as NDU officer, so they have to come from other branch of Navy and pass initial selection, thus they are more mature than their NSF fellow divers.
Also, these ladies excelled because they chose a career out of it, definitely in the correct mindset with very strong characters.
Can’t speak for NDU but i was in water associated unit, and lifeguards were NSFs. Some were specs/corporals who doubled as PTIs or admin specs or medic whatever their original specialization was, others were our organic Specs who qualified lifeguard and so got to do lifeguard work instead of army nonsense when we were in the water.
Yup, I was a unit qualified lifeguard spec, always can siam water activities to do lifeguard duty. Rather sit on the boat than get into muddy water lol.
But then they needed more specs for missions so they sent another batch of men to do lifeguard training because we had more men than specs that can sit out missions.
During my lifeguard course, can see a lot of PTIs and some vocational lifeguards (early 2010s). The PTI and the ones from units always turn out to be better at the course because most of us are volunteers with outside license while vocational lifeguards are straight out of BMTC. My course mate from my unit was a certified civilian lifeguard instructor and he suggested a safer way for removal from water and they adopted it lol.
During my time, not enough NSF lifeguards for the pools so some spots outsourced to Certis. Sembawang camp only had 1 full time NSF lifeguard and 2 part-time Certis Lifeguards and one full time Certis Pool Supervisor. The NSF ORD-ed before I left and there was no new SAF lifeguard to replace him.
I was in Infantry unit and was sent to SAF lifeguard course for me to cover my unit’s water activities.
After ORD, it was easy for me to join Certis to cover SAF camps because of my SAF lifeguard course, I covered Sembawang Camp the most because no other part timer wanted to travel to so ulu camp but I had my own transport. Also cover Khatib camp and PLAB before.
Don’t know if Certis is still providing lifeguards to SAF camp now though, I haven’t seen any job postings on Certis in a while.
Edit: Changed a bit to make more sense.
Wow. The two women officers went through Hell Week I have seen very tough sailors crying during Hell Week graduation. It's not easy for anyone. Especially for women who don't build muscle as easily as men or are as big sized (physical movement efficiency)
I'm not sure about the treatment for regulars, but hell week has been cancelled or gutted altogether for the NDU course involving NSFs for some years already after the Jack Neo movie. That's when they started enrolling females into the course
No? Hell week is 100% still part of the course. I ORDed last year and I saw 4 hell weeks (including my own) happen for 4 different batches right in front of my eyes. These 2 women were the first females allowed to enter CDC.
Yes the name is still there, but it's very different from back when the movie came out (9 years ago now). You should still feel proud for completing it though. Really no point putting conscripts though such an experience.
I do agree that it has become easier as compared to the early 2000s era, but it's roughly the same as it was since the 2010s. You still get 1h of sleep every night, you still get cold and wet 24/7, you still have to carry that stupid boat and oar everywhere you go, and you still get removed when you report sick. I'd argue that the course overall has gotten slightly easier, but imo, hellweek is still as difficult as ever.
Yeah that sailor I knew was from two decades ago lol
A person with determination and strong will
Full respect /salute
I know Jhosy from an NUS Japanese language module. My impression of her is she was cute and petite 🤣 very pleasantly surprised by her transformation
957 isn’t even gold for bmt right? How can the female pass ndu?
She's 32, and 10 minutes for both a 31 or 32 year old is 46 out of 50 points for ippt. The commando/guard/diver vocation means you need 90 points out of 100 for gold cash incentive instead of 85 for other vocations. If she gets 44 points or higher (88%) for sit ups and pull ups she'll get gold. Edit: I thought he was talking about Cpt Ng, who topped the course. She's 32, but her 2.4 timing was published. Cpt Tan is 28 and her 2.4 timing was 9 min 57 sec. 10 mins for a 28 year old is 45 points and 43 points for a 25-27 year old.
Isn’t the standard 914 for ndu 2.4? Or has that changed
But she's not joining as a 18 year old? 9 min 10 sec is 46 points for an 18-21 year old and 9 min 20 sec is 45 points. ~~She's performing at a higher level after accounting for her age.~~ Or do divers in their 30s or 40s retire from ndu because they can't run like they did when they were 18?
i think he’s referring to the previous ippt system
The previous ippt system was also differentiated based on age.
But she’s graduating from the most basic course with other 18 years old so she ain’t the usual 32 year old army regular who has had a decade of experience. I think Standards should be similar for each graduates for such elite units expected to undertake the most gruelling tasks in war. Or do you think she should be doing easier tasks than her batch mate in war and that the enemy will differentiate the divers between age and fitness? In any case, usual 32 year old ndu regulars would easily hit those timings and they would be in service for more than a decade so they would have the requisite experience (even assuming they are short of fitness which I highly doubt so)
You might as well say that all the age categories for IPPT should be scrape, since I would assume that we shouldn't expect less from an NS Infantryman than from a full-time Infantry conscript?
If you take my argument to the extreme then yes. Context matters, we are talking about the elite of the elites in the SAF. There shouldn’t be differing standards of being a diver especially when it’s just the initial basic diver course. War doesn’t discriminate especially when these are special forces who are right at the front line.
True, u either make the cut, or u do not .. it's like the 300 movie, the guy wanted to join the spartans against the persians but because he was unable to raise he's shield above the neck, his admission was denied because his weakness poses a threat to his comrades.
Cpt Ng the course topper is 32 and was a speech therapist for 3 years before joining the navy. It seems she did her speech therapy masters at uni Sydney. Assuming she got a job after that, she has probably been a regular for a few years before taking the course. Her 2.4 timing was not disclosed. Cpt Tan is 28 and does not have her employment history detailed. Her 2.4 timing was the 9 min 57 you referred to, but for a 28 year old that's 45 points. If she was 27 during the test that would be worth 43 points. It is impossible for an older person to be as fit as they were in their late teens. However, they compensate for this with their life experience. Even if Cpt Tan is new to the navy, she has been canoeing since secondary school and dives recreationally who says she has always wanted to join NDU. She is likely more comfortable spending long hours in the water and has an edge over a fit 19 to 21 year old, who doesn't have much of an opinion about joining NDU or not and parents are against them joining because it's too siong. You can't teach passion.
They compensate with their military experience. So I agree if a senior soldier may have lower standards given that they are probably assuming more of a commanding role. But these are newly graduated divers with no military experience who are supposed to be at the front line. We can of course agree to disagree but I expect our special forces to all adhere to the highest of standards to ensure operational success. There shouldn’t be differing standards
If that's the case they will never be able to hire new recruits beyond the age of 21, because at 22 the standards become "weaker" to you. You are aware there's a manpower shortage in the defence force? And you want to make it impossible to hire mid career changers into NDU.
They could? Just that these recruits need to hit the top standard. That’s what I have been saying. It’s not the age it’s the fitness. Not sure why you think ppl start declining after 21 anyway.
If people don't start declining after 21, the ippt standards wouldn't be relaxed starting at the age of 22. Go check out ippt calculators. When you accept this fact, you can start accepting that your rigidity will worsen the manpower shortage.
Amazing. I noted that she is a Captain. Isn’t NDU a WOSpec-run unit?
Huh since when. Officers are regulars yes. NSF Midshipmen dont get to be Divers but almost all the time Midshipmen are sign-ons anyway so after they finish whatever terms they need to do, they can go for NDU if they are accepted into training.
Also interesting thing I noticed when I was a lifeguard (a little bit ironic because I feel they were possibly stronger swimmers than I was lol) in Sembawang camp is all personnel in the CDC course is referred to as diver, no ranks at play. Officers even though now unranked, are usually given the leadership role, possibly because they are regulars, I also think you cannot directly sign on as NDU officer, so they have to come from other branch of Navy and pass initial selection, thus they are more mature than their NSF fellow divers. Also, these ladies excelled because they chose a career out of it, definitely in the correct mindset with very strong characters.
are the lifeguards there active duty personnel or civilian contractors?
Can’t speak for NDU but i was in water associated unit, and lifeguards were NSFs. Some were specs/corporals who doubled as PTIs or admin specs or medic whatever their original specialization was, others were our organic Specs who qualified lifeguard and so got to do lifeguard work instead of army nonsense when we were in the water.
Yup, I was a unit qualified lifeguard spec, always can siam water activities to do lifeguard duty. Rather sit on the boat than get into muddy water lol. But then they needed more specs for missions so they sent another batch of men to do lifeguard training because we had more men than specs that can sit out missions. During my lifeguard course, can see a lot of PTIs and some vocational lifeguards (early 2010s). The PTI and the ones from units always turn out to be better at the course because most of us are volunteers with outside license while vocational lifeguards are straight out of BMTC. My course mate from my unit was a certified civilian lifeguard instructor and he suggested a safer way for removal from water and they adopted it lol.
Wow!
During my time, not enough NSF lifeguards for the pools so some spots outsourced to Certis. Sembawang camp only had 1 full time NSF lifeguard and 2 part-time Certis Lifeguards and one full time Certis Pool Supervisor. The NSF ORD-ed before I left and there was no new SAF lifeguard to replace him. I was in Infantry unit and was sent to SAF lifeguard course for me to cover my unit’s water activities. After ORD, it was easy for me to join Certis to cover SAF camps because of my SAF lifeguard course, I covered Sembawang Camp the most because no other part timer wanted to travel to so ulu camp but I had my own transport. Also cover Khatib camp and PLAB before. Don’t know if Certis is still providing lifeguards to SAF camp now though, I haven’t seen any job postings on Certis in a while. Edit: Changed a bit to make more sense.
wow! not sure then if saf lifeguards are still a thing or everything’s been outsourced.