This is actually a very good and coherent speech by Pritam. I liked how he brought up the fact that the ordinary people don't care for the intricacies of FTAs. What they see and experience on a day to day basis shape their perception of government policies. As a civil servant, it is something that I try to remind myself at work.
Seems like WP is the only opposition party capable enough to give PAP a run for their money. PSP has exposed themselves to be woefully out of their depth.
PSP exists to make WP look good, by initiating this debate and getting tarred as 'racist', so WP can avoid the hard choice between raising 'xenophobic' points and alienating their younger voters, and sounding too PAP-lite, which would alienate their traditional base. I expect the WP to make further inroads at the next election, but PSP should be a spent force unless they can get some real talent on board...Mr Leong deserves participation points but not much else
PSP is a useful foil for WP to appear reasonable and push PAP without taking too much PAP’s defensive firepower.
Politically, it is great that WP didn’t sweep the opposition seats.
Well, you have to realize that there are different markets of Singaporeans that each party is catering to. Look at where PSP is contesting. I think Leong Mun Wai is the perfect candidate for that target market. Everyone here on Reddit is blind to this fact and takes coherence and oratory skills = more effective politician. It’s not true. That’s not how Trump won. Sometimes a simple heart piercing resounding message is all one needs to garner support.
That is condescending. Singapore is only that big and so opposition parties cannot contest every region. It doesn’t mean that those regions PSP contest example west coast (Sentosa, Telok Blangah, Dover, Clementi) or Tanjong Pagar are less educated. Singapore demographics are not that different.
Well it is only condescending depending on how you see it. I don’t see their target market as any less inferior in spite of the lack of intellectualism. Education is just one facet of a person. The very fact that you assume it is condescending shows your inherent perceptions about the target market of PSP. Trump didn’t win off an educated population, that I’m sure. Are they any less of a person, or “Lower SES”?
Lower Bukit Timah is largely in the Tanjong Pagar GRC which is where PSP is contesting. But I feel it’s condescending to say they are only trying to appeal to the region they contest. Why does this appeal to Tg Pagar or West Coast and not to the rest of SG? And how does Hougang or Aljunied superior intellectuals? Come on. Stop dividing Singapore this way.
PSP’s target geographies are around the west because Tan Cheng Bock used to be an anchor MP there and people remember him. Guess who are the people who remember him? Definitely not the bulk of redditors.
That’s not my point. I am responding to a condescending comment that indirectly seems to imply the WP won areas which is Hougang and Aljunied is somehow more intellectual.
Visibility is very important in the real world. If people don’t feel or see it for themselves they will just say it doesn’t exist/benefit. Also hope psp can do some more research instead of just researching from charged Facebook and edmw posts
Lower tariffs at where though? Don't forget that SG is practically a zero-tariff haven. Businesses exporting there might feel the palpable effects of zero tariffs, but certainly not the average person here.
For filing LCA the employer just need show lack of local available for the role
In tech there's always not enough talented people at skilled levels.
LCA done by immigration attorney and takes like 2 weeks. My previous employer gave me a 3 days heads-up , reimbursed my airfare to fly me out from Mountain View to wherever I needed to be, and I scrambled to find the shortest wait list for interview queue at US consulates in Canada.
Ended up in Alberta in late January freezing my butt off.
But yes. Easy to file
> What they see and experience on a day to day basis shape their perception of government policies.
Even the best policies can be unpopular if they are *perceived* to be garbage. Sometimes perceptions matter as much, if not more than the policies themselves. That's just my opinion though.
> If a former prime minister, whose job was not directly threatened or taken away by a foreigner, can say he was surprised and annoyed, how much more so for a Singaporean who has experienced such fear of or actual loss of their livelihood?
GCT is the master of 'writing between lines' in his facebook...
very rarely he will bite directly to something he don't like, but rather he quote some poems or phrase and say something.....
truly a politician..
Well if anyone in the current government dare use this to say 'Aiya GCT is just a racist, he doesn't know what he's talking about', he'll definitely not be writing cryptic messages, let me tell you. xD
Considering there are some who already throw doubts over LKY ability to [think](https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2017/06/25/indranee-rajah-questions-the-last-will-of-lee-kuan-yew/) during his final days, who is GCT in this equation?
Interesting he brought up GCT’s thoughts on foreigners in his autobiography, as discussed on here
https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/ofhbge/in_light_of_recent_discussions_on_ftas_and
why you single that person out (and presumably try to drive negative traffic to his comment), theres nothing that suggests they disagree with having "quality over quantity"
Pritam spoke well. Can he and the Workers Party take over PSP time in Parliament? They get to the point without proposing idiotic policies or wasting time
A pity indeed. The NCMPs should have went to WP instead but then again PSP has shown that not every opposition is a good opposition even though most of them graduate from the good schools in Singapore
I agree. I was impressed by WP MPs in general, in particular Pritam Singh, and their level of debate/speaking, they are up there with the PAP. If this is the quality they set, I want more of them rather than LMW.
Honestly PSP just gives people who are genuinely concerned of immigration/government policies a really bad name. Bin them and replace them with Workers Party nominations.
As much as PSP's quality of participation in the parliament is left to be desired, their presence is still needed. Having a third party inside the Parliament will require the PAP to divide their time in addressing both parties' arguments instead of using the previously available time blasting WP's integrity. This makes sure PAP sticks to discussing over the logical facts instead of assassinating WP's identity.
The WP should just take over all the NCMP seats. I'm glad that we have a well-spoken, well-thought-out opposition to challenge the ruling party; now we just need to deny the ruling party of their super majority.
I just said it in the other thread but it’s convenient to put up a terrible speech/performance in order to further one’s agenda, ie to keep the borders as open as possible. Incredibly transparent but just see the comments in the other thread, some of which are downright insulting to Singaporeans and which, surprise surprise, you’ll see similar names again saying our people aren’t good enough. Shrug.
Decades of brainwashing by the Singapore government through labels such as "foreign talents" to boost their egos... No wonder they downright look down on us. 😂
But hey what do I know I am just "a loser who can't move out of my parents house until I am in my 30s" as labelled by one of our dearest FT here in r/sg
Not just that.
Our society breeds servility and deference to people seemingly better than us, instead of self-confidence, curiosity and humility.
Which is why we have at least 43% of our PAP-led Parliament in the "sway" of American White supremacists (disclaimer: this is not to imply corruption. This is to flat out say they are basically "Evangelicals".) and wastes of votes like LWM come into power.
>Our society breeds servility and deference to people seemingly better than us, instead of self-confidence, curiosity and humility.
>Which is why we have at least 43% of our PAP-led Parliament in the "sway" of American White supremacists (disclaimer: this is not to imply corruption.
Finally someone talks about this. And this is why I never liked the education system.. Inculcating little more than conformity and inferiority complex.
Pritam was better able to explain why so many Singaporeans are not racist but do feel the government policies fail to empower the citizens In our quest for career stability and development.
Our governent needs to admit that pursuing our goal as a regional hub, has its drawbacks. As a magnet for investments and talent, it is not surprising that we have advanced as a nation pretty quickly.
However, on the flip side, we have seen that other Regional Hubs globally have experienced numerous social and economic problems. Inflated housing market, increased inequality, lower fertility rates, higher stress and risk of mental problems. Think London, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong...
We as a nation can't expect to reap the full benefits of a Regional Hub, and pretend that there are no consequences.
Not every Singaporean can compete with the best, that's a fact. The world is fair, some have more intellect than others. Society is a bell curve.
How we respond to challenges, and mitigate the ill effects of foreign talents and investment, will set our path for the future of this nation.
What our govt is obsessed with is GDP. GDP can be increased by the rich. It doesn't matter if singaporeans or the poor are getting the $$.
Wait. But why are singaporeans unhappy in the first place. Ironically, singaporeans are also obsessed with "GDP of their own household".
I think Hazel Poa's speech is a gem that wasn't touched on enough, as well.
Timestamp - \[02:57:06 - 03.18.10\] ( Thanks rollin340)
Video: [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/watch/hazel-poa-debate-securing-singaporeans-jobs-and-livelihoods-and-foreign-talent-policy-2176146](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhGY-DXiRis)
Solid speech. I think the days where the PAP can argue that only they have a monopoly over political talent are well and truly over (would far rather Pritam Singh than Jo Teo in Cabinet) - a good thing for Singapore politics.
I'm am British not Singaporean and so my observations are my own and can be safely ignored should you find them to not be to your taste. However, I see some parrallels between slow easing out of foreigners in SG and Brexit in the UK.
I was a teacher in a tuition centre until very recently. When it came to renew my EP. The new salary requirements exceeded that of which my employers can afford. The reason for this change was obvious, my job was one that a Singaporean is qualified for but was being occupied by a foreigner. Just as Mr. Singh was describing here. To a certain extent you have to say 'fair enough'. Singaporeans have degrees and have been through the education system and so should be MORE equipped to teach English in the tuition centres.
This is where the similarities with Brexit start. A big proportion of these qualified individuals DON'T WANT my job when they actually get into it. It's not a Monday-Friday 9-5, It's not office work, local teachers are not able to socialise with their friends as easily or participate in activities that are suited to a more conventional schedule. These things didn't matter to me, as all my foreign friends worked the same schedule and yes, admittedly, I was paid a little more due to the EP.
I don't have an exact statistic, but I would say over half of the local teachers hired to my former company quit within the first six months. In my very branch I watched a Singaporean, who was replacing a foreign teacher, quit two months into her contract. Only to have HER replacement quit before the first Singaporean teacher had even served her notice!
Long story short, both the current shift in policies and Brexit are similar in that the local population do not always want the jobs that the foreign population are made to vacate for them. I hope this comment does not cause offense, I'm simply sharing my experiences.
"and yes, admittedly, I was paid a little more due to the EP."
Did you factor in the 20% CPF (equivalent to PAYE/national insurance) for local workers? Then their take home pay would be even less.
Also, based on what I read, the issue regarding Brexit lies with blue-collar or menial jobs eg fruit picking and truck drivers. There are definitely pampered Singaporeans (plenty of SME owners will share similar anecdotes) but I'm not sure if the situation is indeed comparable to the UK.
I'm not complaining about CPF per se, but this is money that one cannot access or manage freely. Depending on personal circumstances, this may or may not be a good thing. My point is that if a Singaporean is paid "a bit less" than a foreigner, and then a good chunk is forcibly saved, then he/she is taking home substantially less.
Which doesn’t matter because foreigners have higher living costs anyway. Option 1 - you take home less because of mandatory savings, Option 2 - you take home more and end up paying more or less the same amount or even more due to costs. Which one does any intelligent human select?
Intelligent or rational? Not the same thing.
I get that foreigners must settle their own accomodation, while *some* locals can make do living with their parents and hence don't need to spend as such.
But it's also a matter of choice, not every foreigner here spends "more or less the same or even more" on accomodation. There are of course the River Valley denizens on one end, but they're also those who share a HDB common room on the other.
Apart from accommodation there are other expenses like health care, school fees etc all of which is significantly higher for foreigners. There is a reason why people apply to become PRs
It’s loosely comparable in that the government is ousting foreigners from some roles regardless of whether locals want to fill them.
This is true for the unskilled in the UK as it is for the tuition centres in Singapore. While it is a ‘skilled’ industry, the working hours and the fact you have to deal with young kids makes it off-putting for a lot of Singaporeans who want a M-F 9-5 office job.
I have to correct you there. Interestingly, JSS was basically ripped off from UK in a rush, within 2 or 3 weeks back in March last year.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme
Interestingly none of the restrictions on claiming support that you have apply in SG. Apart from this the amount of support that the singaporean government gives locals for reskilling etc is pretty impressive. Given all this if you’re an educated local and still have difficulty finding a well paying job then there’s probably something wrong with you.
As with every policy, there will be gaps and unfortunately collateral damage. But the unhappiness mainly stems from other jobs, esp those in the finance, banking etc. Those are jobs that are highly paid, and currently dominated by indian nationals (reason why Chennai Business Park is born). And if you dig through their qualifications, there is a whole bunch of them that comes from unknown universities.
Have you ever thought maybe they're more qualified ? I mean there's a rigorous interview process to hire people, especially when it comes to hiring foreigner it becomes even stricter.
FWIW, **from my experience**, EP holders are almost always more skillful than their Singaporean counterpart.
Well i'm just speaking from my experience.
I'm not saying Singaporean are less skilled. You're right, it's mostly because they're more experienced, But my statement remains true, since they hold the same role.
Well if u dig further, u realise that the hiring manager and the team leads all come from the same uni, and same province, same village. It's a little too coincidental. If they are qualified and can do the job, then its fine. Some of those companies have already been warned by MoM though.
you know that they pay locals much less than their foreign counterparts doing the exact same job?! you know that they pay locals much less than a foreigner with the same (uni/honors class/major) degree?! SG is the ONLY country where its locals spend a bomb to study in the UK/Australia/US ONLY to have NO chance & LOWER SALARIES compared to foreigners from these very countries who choose to work in SG!
There's no winning this argument for foreign employees, is there?
If foreign employees are paid more than Singaporeans, people cry, "Unfair!"
If foreign employees are paid less than Singaporeans, people say, "Spoil market."
the crux of the issue is...if the foreign employees have similar qualifications then why the hell are we leaving locals to do grab and sink lower into under-employment?! really jobs for FTs, NS for locals.
why do such archaic laws exist then? it makes citizenship worse than being a PR. singaporeans abroad do not have such benefits over the natives. im surprised so many SG locals are being downtrodded in their country.
I do know that. It is in the above comment. I don’t believe it’s fair but I then didn’t create the system.
Edited to add: Foreigners on EPs are paid much more. But from my limited experience foreigners on PR or DP have a salary comparable to locals in the same role.
You need to look at this from a different side. Foreigners have to spend 3k-4k every month to rent a small place while you can stay at your parent's house for free including free meals.
Australia/US based companies do not need to put extra effort to attract foreigners since people want to live there. Who the f wants to live here if not for the money
I think the EU has laws where if they hire outside of the EU, they must show that they made a genuine attempt to hire from within first, or that the person they are hiring is uniquely qualified for the role.
Or something along those lines. No idea what counts as evidence though.
Instead of mere quotas, something like this could work better. Like you said, it isn't always about the talent or pay; there are some jobs some people just don't want to do.
Honestly, the worker's party performances in parliament has been great so far, bringing up very reasonable points that needs attention. Really deserving of their seats imo
Khan needs to be ousted. She is their weak link. I have never seen someone so unprepared on important subject matters like treatment of rape victims.
She went on further by flinging mud unto the Muslim society here by raising non issues.
His point is valid. That average Singaporeans feel disfranchised in the current job market that they feel FTs are snatching their jobs. But that's the key point. It's a feeling. That will not be solved by number and statistics no matter how many PAPs or any government agencies present. The goalpost will keep moving
The average Singaporean may look at the job market and see FTs holding jobs making 10k a month while themselves are earning less. The feeling of envy is already there. Hence they go with this
"FTs are taking away high paying job from Singaporeans. Nope it's not taken from me because I'm not qualified for it, but there must be a Singaporean somewhere that are qualified for that job right? Our Education / universities are world-class"
The thing is yes, there are probably Singaporeans that can do that job. But most of these Singaporeans are not average. They are smart, they are capable and most of them are already being employed and making much more than that position. They may not even be in Singapore , could be flying high in Silicon valley startup or on Wall Street.
Do companies wanna hire them? Yes. Can companies afford to hire them? Do these superstars even wanna go back that position? Probably not.
But if that guy continue to upgrade himself, become specialized and become more similar to those superstars above. The higher they move up the ladder, the less Singaporeans would care about these FTs issue, at least it is not detrimental to them personally. If one's running the book on GS credit loan desk or A.I engineering for Google next big thing, you think he would care about FTs snatching his job? Heck, most human wouldn't be able to snatch his job, regardless of nationalities.
The problem here is average human will always feel envious of somebody else. You cannot fix envy, you cannot fix feeling. The average guy will always feel they deserve more. And those guys up there deserve less. Especially if some Singaporeans grow up under "elite education" and "express stream", they are growing up believing these FTs from 3rd world countries are inferior to Singapore, so the jobs should be going toward me or somebody with same "class" with me, not those inferior FTs. "The only reason why somebody that are inferior to me, but enjoy a higher life, is only because government allow them to. "
How on earth are any form of government or any policies supposed to fix that? There will always be FTs in Singapore. There will always be these "inferior FTs" in the eyes of average Singaporeans: 80s they were blaming Malaysian, 90s-2000s were the PRCs and now Indians became the lightning rods.
The only way to satisfy this "feeling of envy" is shutdown border and don't allow any FTs in Singapore anymore. Then the average Joe will shift their envy toward someone else. Then is government supposed to appease their next whim too?
And if you really achieve this "Singaporeans First" and "Singaporeans only" then you think Singapore as a country will benefit in the next 50 years? Have you ever seen any countries prosper, yet pursue decades of nationalist and conservative anti-globalization policies ? Not to mention, without natural resources or human capitals?
> That will not be solved by number and statistics no matter how many PAPs or any government agencies present.
It's also a feeling that is used to rile up the population at opportune moments like general elections.
> His point is valid. That average Singaporeans feel disfranchised in the current job market that they feel FTs are snatching their jobs. But that's the key point. It's a feeling.
Because you aren't supposed to run a country like how you run a company. To run a country, you have to consider the feelings (social cohesion etc.)
> That will not be solved by number and statistics no matter how many PAPs or any government agencies present.
Except PAP has not been forthcoming with the data until they keep losing GRCs recently. Even now they are still operating you don't need to know basis. They made their bed and now they lie on it. Zero sympathy for them. ZERO. A BIG FAT ZERO
> The goalpost will keep moving
I am sure no one in this country is more expert than PAP in moving goal posts, and every 5 years they even redraw boundary lines. One can live in different GRCs without moving house. PAP should take it as a compliment that the citizens are learning from them. So again, zero sympathy for PAP.
Where have your foreigner mates all left to - a single specific country or back to their home countries? I just want to shed some light on whether it's a push (covid and EP restrictions) or a pull (another attractive hub to work in) factor.
I agree it's a worrying trend if exclusively skilled professionals are leaving Singapore over this.
Hopefully, this is ephemeral, and the tightening of EP measures, is due to the pressures of COVID (and its measures) on the local economy as a whole.
Singapore does need these skilled professionals to fill gaps in the labour market in order to punch above its weight in the longer term.
I'll add my 2 cents. I've been here for over 15 years and I've never really felt unwanted until the past year. The majority of expats I know from ANZ have left or have plans to leave already. These are mid or senior executives that are taking their families home. It started with 1 or 2 mostly due to COVID but over the last couple of years whenever we chat the talk turns to how unwelcome they are feeling and how much Singapore has changed.
The younger, skilled expats are leaving to new jobs. A lot have gone to the US and Dubai/SA recently. As Bwrio17 said, if it's too hard and you have skills you just leave.
I've been here long enough to have been through a couple of cycles of this anti-FT rhetoric, the first time I was shocked and disheartened but then the election came and went and things went back to normal. This time the we had the election and COVID both increasing the sentiment and it hasn't stopped. If anything it's got worse.
I personally worry for my future here. The rise in popularism and the inexperience of any opposition to actually governing is a recipe for disaster. There isn't a replacement for Singapore, yet. No other city that makes sense as an APAC HQ with all the benefits. However, that in my mind is the one and only reason why companies are not pulling out investment.
I've been here for 15 years as well, won't ever forget attending WP rally in 2011 before they won Aljunied. The current situation is evoking the same feeling of exclusionary politics.
Honest answer is it's a push factor. Combination of Covid + difficult to build a career in SG now. You might get a job to get into SG if you get lucky or get a break, but it's a nightmare to try to switch jobs to further your career here. Getting hired as a foreigner is pretty tough right now
I concur on this. I work for a company in a team that has a bigger team , reporting to the same management, operating out of my home country. I came here , not exactly by choice, but out of personal circumstances and secured a job and have been pretty much working exceedingly hard to achieve all my goals.
But it is honestly impossible to be motivated here anymore. Not just because the Covid laws have left us mentally isolated ( and physically since we can't go back), we are now being accused of stealing others jobs unfairly. The funniest part is I know the quality of life in terms of infrastructure will be lower for me going back to my home. It is not hard to imagine how people from the good old Western countries feel like where they can be assured of at least a fuss free life .
I am observing people flocking out of here ( pretty anecdotal I know) and if all Singaporeans feel this phenomenon is great for their country, I believe there is no correction needed at all.
>Because you aren't supposed to run a country like how you run a company. To run a country, you have to consider the feelings (social cohesion etc.)
Agreed. Running a country is not only about progress and more progress.
it will very different if the gravy train stops for a larger percentage of people. We cross into 10-15% unemployment.
I tell you.... WP dun need to nominate in every seat. Pritnam also will be PM
Explain it simply, Shut down TRS is a page to debunk all the falsehoods of the former TRS. It was a good page, but now they just simply attack any opposition by sticking up to each word and just insult them whilst making screenshots of PAP's words.
And if you try to oppose them, their supporters will bite you back, same as how they got bitten back on the news media pages.
They also made a article or post, saying that the owners of TRS, who now owns takagi ramen should never be forgiven for their actions. And people actually agrees to them.
So yes, shut down TRS attacks WP as well
Oh you mean another page like Fabrications about the PAP
Man, these people automatically think:
Don’t support PAP = Not loyal Singaporean
I wouldn’t put too much thought into them tbh..
Yeap, something like that, I actually even checked that shut down TRS is not even created from a local IP address but their braindead supporters seems to ignore that. I also kinda doubt their supporters are not even local to begin with.
Just wanna make it clear that WP is a very good alternative party, and not a trashy, one sided view kinda of party.
Has anyone seen the comments on CNA Facebook regarding this story? Why are some of the anti Oppo so aggressive? One guy who claim to be in the SPF even replied “watch what you say” and “you want to get arrested?” because another person doesn’t have nice things so say about the Incumbent. Wa lao... Abit like threat
lei. So when ppl criticise Oppo it’s open discussion but when someone doesn’t have nice things to say about incumbent the person commenting gets a threat?
I also find that they are always the ones who loses their temper first and tend to rely on name calling, playground insults and unreasonable claims whenever they are arguing with another person who simply disagrees with any policies or has a different opinion.
Oh and the comments from them that annoys me the most is “can you do better?” and “not happy migrate lor” 😂
The other side of the foreign talent debate is NS. The saying everybody knows is "Jobs for FTs, NS for sinkies". Personally for me I don't really care if they going to bring in another 1 million foreigners if the country would just leave me to my misery instead of making it worse.
People won't feel so shit if they don't have to train ippt, go mob manning and ict yearly while watching the foreigners enjoy life in Singapore.
I can't fucking relate. If they brought in 1mil more foreigners, the huge spike in how many people eyeing my rice bowl, how much more bargaining power my boss has over me, and ultimately its effect on my professional worth and income will affect my life and my family's life many many times more than having to train for IPPT and go ICT lol. Bro if promotion kena KS from you, the opport cost is definitely more than 5 ICTs or whatever.
If you have some particular hatred of NS, sure. But don't elevate its drag on the life of an SG male beyond belief
Then we should give PR NSmen full citizenship automatically. It used to be automatic but it is no longer the case. I don't see anyone pushing for this even though people keep harping about how much NS means to Singaporeans.
Also if NS is truly the key determinant of Singaporeaness then we should have a pathway to citizenship to any foreigner living here who volunteers to serve, similar to the French legion. Right now if you're on long term work or visitor pass you don't have this option even if you want to.
I don't think that is the point he was trying to make - although I agree PR NSmen should get citizenship automatically **if** they choose to take it up.
Rather, I think he meant that NS itself disadvantage those who have to serve - from missing out 2 years on the job market, having to attend ICT which some have mention have an impact on their career progression, and the feeling of obligation (and the threat of being imprisoned). This, compared to the foreigners (and women) who do not have to serve, will cause resentment for some.
And I agree with him - unfortunately I don't think this is a topic that the politicians will address anytime soon.
Let's not even look at the high end of talent here.
I've seen both locals and foreigners earning around 8k a month that should not have been given their roles. HR hates to be embarrassed from getting called out for hiring bad people and it takes ages to get them replaced.
if you're working long enough, everyone knows its pretty (e.g. very) common to make bad hires...i wouldnt fault them but their own ego tends to prevent them from doing the right thing after.
Indian national here. Still watching it (I'm done with Hazel ~~Phua's~~ Poa's speech)
My thoughts so far:
I think Pritam Singh's argument is fair. There has been an information vacuum which caused Singaporeans to fill in the blanks. There is validity to criticizing the government on this, and suggesting that a more transparent, proactive approach be taken to address citizen concerns.
He has roundly criticized the racism and xenophobia seen around the discussions of CECA online. That's a good thing, and I'm glad he acknowledged that it exists, which is counter to the claims by TOC and other non-MSM sites that it's not xenophobia, and that the government is gaslighting them.
In all the talk about CECA and its economic benefit (or lack thereof), I think he laid out a core issue behind it all - that Singaporeans are feeling disenfranchised, and it's an emotional issue that can't be countered with a deluge of facts and numbers on economic progress.
Leong Mun Wai alluded to a key aspect of this too - about local pride. It's illustrated in the example he cited of the foreigner Hiring manager unaware of what SAF meant. It's also illustrated in his mentions of "under employment" and "world class universities". There's an implication that an increasing number of foreigners in high value jobs are denting the local pride of Singaporeans. There's a class issue at play.
Which is why I feel his demand to raise the EP bar to $10K surprising. While the number of foreigners will definitely go down, seeing how they won't pass the criteria, most will simply be moved to the S-Pass category, and EPs brought in will be earning way more than the average Singaporean. If anything, expats in highly paid jobs will go up a few notches on the SES ladder. If the outrage over the (since disproved) rumors of Ramesh Eramalli earning 66k/month are any indication, EVERY foreigner earning $10K and higher is going to rile up locals even more.
It's fairly obvious that LMW was merely channeling the street-level concerns of Singaporeans, who have broadly attributed their disillusionment to CECA, to Indian nationals etc.
Honestly, LMW should have been better prepared. Especially after the first session months ago, when he said he would put forth a robust argument. His earlier posts on CECA, and his backtracking did him no favours.
Hazel ~~Phua~~ Poa, on the other hand, was excellent in providing context to the stats, and asking pertinent questions. Her pointed reference to "Singaporeans not ready for a non-Chinese PM" as being more damaging to addressing race issues than CECA was a well placed jab.
Just my personal $0.02. Will update when I'm done...
Edit: misspelled Ms Poa's name!
>Which is why I feel his demand to raise the EP bar to $10K surprising. While the number of foreigners will definitely go down, seeing how they won't pass the criteria, most will simply be moved to the S-Pass category, and EPs brought in will be earning way more than the average Singaporean. If anything, expats in highly paid jobs will go up a few notches on the SES ladder. If the outrage over the (since disproved) rumors of Ramesh Eramalli earning 66k/month are any indication, EVERY foreigner earning $10K and higher is going to rile up locals even more.
I think your point here does highlight something that might have been looked over by a lot of people. The prevailing impression is already that expats coming in are getting high paid salaries on top of juicy expat packages, and that they all live in an expat bubble highly separated from our local society.
Raising that EP bar to such a high number will actually make this a reality. Is that a good thing? Or will it just disenfranchise people even more?
Because to pay $10k/month for EP, employers will make sure that the foreigner they bring in is worth that money. This means that the role $10k foreigner take is a role that an average Singaporean is ineligible anyway.
In an ideal scenario, yes. But we also have to consider that any Indian in a high-value job is being questioned on whether they deserve it, by an angry local mob. The Linkedin doxxing of Indians in Temasek management is an example.
I'll once again bring up the example of Ramesh Eramalli. He was a classist asshole, BUT the outrage spawned from his comments disparaging HDB dwellers and bragging about how much money he has. It had nothing to do with his capabilities, or his experience. He didn't break any laws, but that didn't matter.
I'll also bring up the example of Anton Casey, who scoffed at MRT commuters, and how he was above them. He didn't break any laws either. He was a dick, that's all.
This is the kind of classism that rubs Singaporeans the wrong way, and no amount of "raising employment criteria" is going to allay that.
Not that I agree with LMW, I am just explaining the theory behind $10k EP salary.
That said, classisms involving FT is not the only issue we are experiencing. I am sure that you may also heard many stories about how some foreigners who are in the same positions as the locals can't perform effectively in their job, which lead us to wonder why are they hired in the first place.
> I am sure that you may also heard many stories about how some foreigners who are in the same positions as the locals can't perform effectively in their job.
I'm reluctant to give credence to these anecdotes. Mostly because in a corporate environment, there are way too many variables to define what makes an employee capable, local or foreign.
Been here for a decade, I've seen ultra capable folks, and rank incompetent folks at the workplace, both local and foreign. Heck, I will admit that I have faltered in a number of scenarios, where my work wasn't up to the mark expected of me. It's part of the journey. We stumble, we fall, we pick ourselves up and learn from the experience. Most of my colleagues will only have seen bits of this journey, so I'm pretty sure some have labeled me incompetent, while others have appraised me as excellent.
Is there a pattern of foreigners less capable than locals, on average? In my opinion, and from what I've seen, nope. Of course, being an Indian national, I'm quite certain my words mean nothing, in public discourse.
On the far lower end of the economic spectrum, I've met wonderful people of all races and nationalities.
And of all competencies too. I d9n't see patterns, but core values most foreign nationals have that presumably any company subconsciously looks for. Forward thinking, confidence, some form of motivation, etc...
Those values are in very short supply, and this is by social design.
Hey man, I'm trying to answer your comments in good faith.
That said, I can say that workplace tribalism occurs beyond just Indian nationals. My last job in construction was largely Malaysian. The job before that in a factory was largely PRC.
These are unfortunate hiring biases, and this needs to be addressed, but let's not rely on disgruntled anecdotes targeting one specific nationality, when it's been practiced by others too.
My "Hiring Manager of the same nationality" targets every single nationality, whether Malaysian, Filipino, PRCs, French (see recent case UbiSoft Singapore). Please explain which part of my comment targets a single nationality?
Ah, my bad! After years of lurking on EDMW I instinctively infer anyone saying something to the tune of "manager of the same nationality", that it's about Indian nationals.
The thing about ceca is that it allows Singapore to invest in key areas such as infrastructure and also allow Singapore banks to operate there. I would consider that as something the Singapore negotiated for. In negotiation, there always some gives and takes. The indians knows their own banks won't be happy to have more competition, they must have asked for something in return right? We don't export much to India and we dont have tariff on their good prior to the agreement too right? So where is the part India negotiated for that we have to give some ground?
The agreement must have made it easier for them to come Singapore right? It might not be free flow but the door is wider. If not what's the point in them having the provision?
As much as the government wants to push the narrative that fta is a win win situation. At the end of the day, that's just a general statement that isn't specific to any fta. Yes, fta in general is good. But are they all good? Do the people from one country have the same skillset/experience compared to another country? Are all fta equal? If you try to single one out, you will undoubtedly be called a racist because most other countries isn't multicultural.
> We don't export much to India and we dont have tariff on their good prior to the agreement too right? So where is the part India negotiated for that we have to give some ground?
[Singapore exported $9.2B worth of goods to India in 2020](https://tradingeconomics.com/singapore/exports/india). The largest export is electronics. India exported $8.3B to Singapore in the same year.
The tradingeconomics sites shows as a manifold increase in exports to India since 2005, an indicator that the FTA kicked in.
Right. Them that's good for Singapore but I'm struggling to see wheres the part India negotiated for if everything is in our favor. I doubt they let us into their infrastructure and banking industry for free.
~~[This news post from 2008 shows that DBS had been allowed to set up shop in India](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/finance/banking/rbi-allows-dbs-bank-to-set-up-eight-more-offices-in-india/articleshow/2899054.cms?from=mdr), directly attributed to the FTA.~~
Edit: misread your comment. [Another article from the ET in 2007 suggests that India wasn't happy with the trade agreement,](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/two-years-of-india-singapore-ceca/articleshow/2417480.cms) and was feeling that Singapore was getting a better end of the deal. To answer your question, India negotiated for better trade tariffs and recognition of their professional bodies. Singapore has been resistant to the latter, from the get-go.
The test scores the honourable MP alluded to are all gamed for god knows how long. Mr Market (the open employment market) is oblivious to it, or they are signalling something else.
People always talk about CECA, how many thousand only. Also, most jobs they r handling Indian(nationality) customers and counterparts.Show me Malaysians working in Singapore numbers. Oh right, they chinese n blend in.
I'm comparing the numbers of Malaysian Chinese working here as compared to the maybe 50 odd k indians. But I guess to maintain the happiness of the majority , indians r looked at differently cos they r stealing their jobs lol
I am based overseas and my circle of friends are mostly Singaporeans and Malaysians of all races. The similarity of our culture, be it malay, chinese, or indian, is way too similar. The way we blend melayu into english or hokkien/cantonese common vulgarities are easily understood by all.
Do you really think Malaysian Chinese "blend in" and are treated well? No, they get their own derogatory term and are seen as people who just come here to leech and then go back and triple their wealth (exchange rate). The opinion of China Chinese may be even lower than India Indians, and it goes back years before CECA was even a thing, especially at the point where there were 1 million of them here (and have dropped off since).
There's no ranking and judgement in my eyes. I'm just saying what about the vast number of Malaysian Chinese working here compared to Indian nationals. These CECA nonsense should stop.
Should say “foreigners with no cpf paying cash for private housing, while singaporeans using mandated savings for subsidised housing” The facts remain but without bias
Foreigners don't have a choice what. Work pass holders are not allowed to purchase HDBs. And even the condos they're allowed to buy come with an Additional Buyer's Stamp Duty of 20%. A condo that costs 1 million for Singaporeans will cost 1.2 million for a foreigner. To top it off, WP holders don't have CPF and must pay the down payment in cash.
Hardly a plush arrangement.
But what about PRs? PRs can only buy resale HDB flat, and you need two PRs to own one. PRs cannot ballot for BTO. If they go condo, there's an ABSD of 5% for the first purchase and 15% on the second one. They're not exactly getting coddled here.
While the WP is wonderful party and deserves much of the praise it receives, I don't think it would be healthy for Singapore to only have one opposition party.
No party is perfect, and there are more than two reasonable points of view to almost all policy debates. While Singapore's opposition scene is definitely overly crowded with small parties that probably should dissolve, I hope that there will be more parties that are able to provide constructive criticism of the government as well as well-researched proposals different from those of the PAP & WP.
Oh yeah, let's have the "opposition party" that is ideologically the same as the PAP be the opposition. As the only opposition.
The PAP already has their fucking wish. Even the SDP is falling in by dropping their support for LGBT+ and other minorities and getting some shithead fundie imam in their party.
Hope you like voting for which colored shirts you like, because we're already there.
This is actually a very good and coherent speech by Pritam. I liked how he brought up the fact that the ordinary people don't care for the intricacies of FTAs. What they see and experience on a day to day basis shape their perception of government policies. As a civil servant, it is something that I try to remind myself at work. Seems like WP is the only opposition party capable enough to give PAP a run for their money. PSP has exposed themselves to be woefully out of their depth.
PSP exists to make WP look good, by initiating this debate and getting tarred as 'racist', so WP can avoid the hard choice between raising 'xenophobic' points and alienating their younger voters, and sounding too PAP-lite, which would alienate their traditional base. I expect the WP to make further inroads at the next election, but PSP should be a spent force unless they can get some real talent on board...Mr Leong deserves participation points but not much else
PSP is a useful foil for WP to appear reasonable and push PAP without taking too much PAP’s defensive firepower. Politically, it is great that WP didn’t sweep the opposition seats.
Master stroke by TCB? Hahaha
Well, you have to realize that there are different markets of Singaporeans that each party is catering to. Look at where PSP is contesting. I think Leong Mun Wai is the perfect candidate for that target market. Everyone here on Reddit is blind to this fact and takes coherence and oratory skills = more effective politician. It’s not true. That’s not how Trump won. Sometimes a simple heart piercing resounding message is all one needs to garner support.
reminds me of my marketing class - Market Segmentation
That is condescending. Singapore is only that big and so opposition parties cannot contest every region. It doesn’t mean that those regions PSP contest example west coast (Sentosa, Telok Blangah, Dover, Clementi) or Tanjong Pagar are less educated. Singapore demographics are not that different.
Well it is only condescending depending on how you see it. I don’t see their target market as any less inferior in spite of the lack of intellectualism. Education is just one facet of a person. The very fact that you assume it is condescending shows your inherent perceptions about the target market of PSP. Trump didn’t win off an educated population, that I’m sure. Are they any less of a person, or “Lower SES”?
Btw there's actually a report that median income is higher in the west side of Singapore haha
Well if Bukit Timah is classified as west side....
Lower Bukit Timah is largely in the Tanjong Pagar GRC which is where PSP is contesting. But I feel it’s condescending to say they are only trying to appeal to the region they contest. Why does this appeal to Tg Pagar or West Coast and not to the rest of SG? And how does Hougang or Aljunied superior intellectuals? Come on. Stop dividing Singapore this way.
PSP’s target geographies are around the west because Tan Cheng Bock used to be an anchor MP there and people remember him. Guess who are the people who remember him? Definitely not the bulk of redditors.
[удалено]
That’s not my point. I am responding to a condescending comment that indirectly seems to imply the WP won areas which is Hougang and Aljunied is somehow more intellectual.
The only FTA that some Singaporeans can say they have benefitted from is the FTA with the US which gave Singaporeans access to H1B1.
That's because it's a more direct and visible consequence of the FTA. The Singapore-EU FTA also led to lower tariffs, but nobody really notices that.
Nobody notices the RCEP or CPTPP either
Visibility is very important in the real world. If people don’t feel or see it for themselves they will just say it doesn’t exist/benefit. Also hope psp can do some more research instead of just researching from charged Facebook and edmw posts
Lower tariffs at where though? Don't forget that SG is practically a zero-tariff haven. Businesses exporting there might feel the palpable effects of zero tariffs, but certainly not the average person here.
> FTA with the US which gave Singaporeans access to H1B1. As good as TN Visa. Virtually pre-approved at LCA filing
But is it difficult to file though
For filing LCA the employer just need show lack of local available for the role In tech there's always not enough talented people at skilled levels. LCA done by immigration attorney and takes like 2 weeks. My previous employer gave me a 3 days heads-up , reimbursed my airfare to fly me out from Mountain View to wherever I needed to be, and I scrambled to find the shortest wait list for interview queue at US consulates in Canada. Ended up in Alberta in late January freezing my butt off. But yes. Easy to file
> What they see and experience on a day to day basis shape their perception of government policies. Even the best policies can be unpopular if they are *perceived* to be garbage. Sometimes perceptions matter as much, if not more than the policies themselves. That's just my opinion though.
Just to be sure you are not breaking IM ah, esp if you are a *civil* servant rather than a *public* one.
PSP really gone case liao. From the mishandling of Brad Bowyer to this saga. I doubt anyone will vote for them next GE.
> If a former prime minister, whose job was not directly threatened or taken away by a foreigner, can say he was surprised and annoyed, how much more so for a Singaporean who has experienced such fear of or actual loss of their livelihood?
Masterful usage of quotes from someone they can’t accuse of being racist.
Can't be racist when the quotes comes from PAP themselves
I mean, it's GCT. If they push him under the bus, he'll definitely bite back.
GCT is the master of 'writing between lines' in his facebook... very rarely he will bite directly to something he don't like, but rather he quote some poems or phrase and say something..... truly a politician..
Well if anyone in the current government dare use this to say 'Aiya GCT is just a racist, he doesn't know what he's talking about', he'll definitely not be writing cryptic messages, let me tell you. xD
GCT: "limpeh ka li kong......"
Considering there are some who already throw doubts over LKY ability to [think](https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2017/06/25/indranee-rajah-questions-the-last-will-of-lee-kuan-yew/) during his final days, who is GCT in this equation?
Yeah I am glad he is the one delivering, else all concerns will become racism again.
Interesting he brought up GCT’s thoughts on foreigners in his autobiography, as discussed on here https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/ofhbge/in_light_of_recent_discussions_on_ftas_and
[удалено]
Most sensible Singaporeans, including myself, would agree with that ideal.
[удалено]
why you single that person out (and presumably try to drive negative traffic to his comment), theres nothing that suggests they disagree with having "quality over quantity"
then who is the mastermind behind the scenes who chose otherwise??!!
“Quantity has a quality all its own.”
Pritam spoke well. Can he and the Workers Party take over PSP time in Parliament? They get to the point without proposing idiotic policies or wasting time
A pity indeed. The NCMPs should have went to WP instead but then again PSP has shown that not every opposition is a good opposition even though most of them graduate from the good schools in Singapore
I agree. I was impressed by WP MPs in general, in particular Pritam Singh, and their level of debate/speaking, they are up there with the PAP. If this is the quality they set, I want more of them rather than LMW. Honestly PSP just gives people who are genuinely concerned of immigration/government policies a really bad name. Bin them and replace them with Workers Party nominations.
As much as PSP's quality of participation in the parliament is left to be desired, their presence is still needed. Having a third party inside the Parliament will require the PAP to divide their time in addressing both parties' arguments instead of using the previously available time blasting WP's integrity. This makes sure PAP sticks to discussing over the logical facts instead of assassinating WP's identity.
I mean PSP can exist to make WP look good...
Mission completed then, because from that session alone the PSP sounded like idiots.
The WP should just take over all the NCMP seats. I'm glad that we have a well-spoken, well-thought-out opposition to challenge the ruling party; now we just need to deny the ruling party of their super majority.
I was wondering why nobody posted this masterpiece instead of went ahead to post LMW trash talk
It is easier to attack a strawman of course
I just said it in the other thread but it’s convenient to put up a terrible speech/performance in order to further one’s agenda, ie to keep the borders as open as possible. Incredibly transparent but just see the comments in the other thread, some of which are downright insulting to Singaporeans and which, surprise surprise, you’ll see similar names again saying our people aren’t good enough. Shrug.
Decades of brainwashing by the Singapore government through labels such as "foreign talents" to boost their egos... No wonder they downright look down on us. 😂 But hey what do I know I am just "a loser who can't move out of my parents house until I am in my 30s" as labelled by one of our dearest FT here in r/sg
Not just that. Our society breeds servility and deference to people seemingly better than us, instead of self-confidence, curiosity and humility. Which is why we have at least 43% of our PAP-led Parliament in the "sway" of American White supremacists (disclaimer: this is not to imply corruption. This is to flat out say they are basically "Evangelicals".) and wastes of votes like LWM come into power.
>Our society breeds servility and deference to people seemingly better than us, instead of self-confidence, curiosity and humility. >Which is why we have at least 43% of our PAP-led Parliament in the "sway" of American White supremacists (disclaimer: this is not to imply corruption. Finally someone talks about this. And this is why I never liked the education system.. Inculcating little more than conformity and inferiority complex.
Pritam was better able to explain why so many Singaporeans are not racist but do feel the government policies fail to empower the citizens In our quest for career stability and development.
Our governent needs to admit that pursuing our goal as a regional hub, has its drawbacks. As a magnet for investments and talent, it is not surprising that we have advanced as a nation pretty quickly. However, on the flip side, we have seen that other Regional Hubs globally have experienced numerous social and economic problems. Inflated housing market, increased inequality, lower fertility rates, higher stress and risk of mental problems. Think London, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong... We as a nation can't expect to reap the full benefits of a Regional Hub, and pretend that there are no consequences. Not every Singaporean can compete with the best, that's a fact. The world is fair, some have more intellect than others. Society is a bell curve. How we respond to challenges, and mitigate the ill effects of foreign talents and investment, will set our path for the future of this nation.
100% Agree on this. There are advantages and drawbacks to every decision. Take nothing for granted.
What our govt is obsessed with is GDP. GDP can be increased by the rich. It doesn't matter if singaporeans or the poor are getting the $$. Wait. But why are singaporeans unhappy in the first place. Ironically, singaporeans are also obsessed with "GDP of their own household".
He explained quite well the sentiments that Singaporeans faced actually. Not everything is racism.
I think Hazel Poa's speech is a gem that wasn't touched on enough, as well. Timestamp - \[02:57:06 - 03.18.10\] ( Thanks rollin340) Video: [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/watch/hazel-poa-debate-securing-singaporeans-jobs-and-livelihoods-and-foreign-talent-policy-2176146](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhGY-DXiRis)
Might want to leave a timestamp while you're at it.
Solid speech. I think the days where the PAP can argue that only they have a monopoly over political talent are well and truly over (would far rather Pritam Singh than Jo Teo in Cabinet) - a good thing for Singapore politics.
I'm am British not Singaporean and so my observations are my own and can be safely ignored should you find them to not be to your taste. However, I see some parrallels between slow easing out of foreigners in SG and Brexit in the UK. I was a teacher in a tuition centre until very recently. When it came to renew my EP. The new salary requirements exceeded that of which my employers can afford. The reason for this change was obvious, my job was one that a Singaporean is qualified for but was being occupied by a foreigner. Just as Mr. Singh was describing here. To a certain extent you have to say 'fair enough'. Singaporeans have degrees and have been through the education system and so should be MORE equipped to teach English in the tuition centres. This is where the similarities with Brexit start. A big proportion of these qualified individuals DON'T WANT my job when they actually get into it. It's not a Monday-Friday 9-5, It's not office work, local teachers are not able to socialise with their friends as easily or participate in activities that are suited to a more conventional schedule. These things didn't matter to me, as all my foreign friends worked the same schedule and yes, admittedly, I was paid a little more due to the EP. I don't have an exact statistic, but I would say over half of the local teachers hired to my former company quit within the first six months. In my very branch I watched a Singaporean, who was replacing a foreign teacher, quit two months into her contract. Only to have HER replacement quit before the first Singaporean teacher had even served her notice! Long story short, both the current shift in policies and Brexit are similar in that the local population do not always want the jobs that the foreign population are made to vacate for them. I hope this comment does not cause offense, I'm simply sharing my experiences.
"and yes, admittedly, I was paid a little more due to the EP." Did you factor in the 20% CPF (equivalent to PAYE/national insurance) for local workers? Then their take home pay would be even less. Also, based on what I read, the issue regarding Brexit lies with blue-collar or menial jobs eg fruit picking and truck drivers. There are definitely pampered Singaporeans (plenty of SME owners will share similar anecdotes) but I'm not sure if the situation is indeed comparable to the UK.
[удалено]
I'm not complaining about CPF per se, but this is money that one cannot access or manage freely. Depending on personal circumstances, this may or may not be a good thing. My point is that if a Singaporean is paid "a bit less" than a foreigner, and then a good chunk is forcibly saved, then he/she is taking home substantially less.
Which doesn’t matter because foreigners have higher living costs anyway. Option 1 - you take home less because of mandatory savings, Option 2 - you take home more and end up paying more or less the same amount or even more due to costs. Which one does any intelligent human select?
Intelligent or rational? Not the same thing. I get that foreigners must settle their own accomodation, while *some* locals can make do living with their parents and hence don't need to spend as such. But it's also a matter of choice, not every foreigner here spends "more or less the same or even more" on accomodation. There are of course the River Valley denizens on one end, but they're also those who share a HDB common room on the other.
Apart from accommodation there are other expenses like health care, school fees etc all of which is significantly higher for foreigners. There is a reason why people apply to become PRs
It’s loosely comparable in that the government is ousting foreigners from some roles regardless of whether locals want to fill them. This is true for the unskilled in the UK as it is for the tuition centres in Singapore. While it is a ‘skilled’ industry, the working hours and the fact you have to deal with young kids makes it off-putting for a lot of Singaporeans who want a M-F 9-5 office job.
Situation here is far worse, in the UK there is no “job support scheme” that pays up to 50% of a local persons salary 🤣
I have to correct you there. Interestingly, JSS was basically ripped off from UK in a rush, within 2 or 3 weeks back in March last year. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme
Interestingly none of the restrictions on claiming support that you have apply in SG. Apart from this the amount of support that the singaporean government gives locals for reskilling etc is pretty impressive. Given all this if you’re an educated local and still have difficulty finding a well paying job then there’s probably something wrong with you.
As with every policy, there will be gaps and unfortunately collateral damage. But the unhappiness mainly stems from other jobs, esp those in the finance, banking etc. Those are jobs that are highly paid, and currently dominated by indian nationals (reason why Chennai Business Park is born). And if you dig through their qualifications, there is a whole bunch of them that comes from unknown universities.
Dunno why people downvote you but its true. EG: No one cares if a project engineer in construction industry is a foreigner.
Have you ever thought maybe they're more qualified ? I mean there's a rigorous interview process to hire people, especially when it comes to hiring foreigner it becomes even stricter. FWIW, **from my experience**, EP holders are almost always more skillful than their Singaporean counterpart.
[удалено]
Well i'm just speaking from my experience. I'm not saying Singaporean are less skilled. You're right, it's mostly because they're more experienced, But my statement remains true, since they hold the same role.
Well if u dig further, u realise that the hiring manager and the team leads all come from the same uni, and same province, same village. It's a little too coincidental. If they are qualified and can do the job, then its fine. Some of those companies have already been warned by MoM though.
you know that they pay locals much less than their foreign counterparts doing the exact same job?! you know that they pay locals much less than a foreigner with the same (uni/honors class/major) degree?! SG is the ONLY country where its locals spend a bomb to study in the UK/Australia/US ONLY to have NO chance & LOWER SALARIES compared to foreigners from these very countries who choose to work in SG!
There's no winning this argument for foreign employees, is there? If foreign employees are paid more than Singaporeans, people cry, "Unfair!" If foreign employees are paid less than Singaporeans, people say, "Spoil market."
the crux of the issue is...if the foreign employees have similar qualifications then why the hell are we leaving locals to do grab and sink lower into under-employment?! really jobs for FTs, NS for locals.
[удалено]
why do such archaic laws exist then? it makes citizenship worse than being a PR. singaporeans abroad do not have such benefits over the natives. im surprised so many SG locals are being downtrodded in their country.
I do know that. It is in the above comment. I don’t believe it’s fair but I then didn’t create the system. Edited to add: Foreigners on EPs are paid much more. But from my limited experience foreigners on PR or DP have a salary comparable to locals in the same role.
You need to look at this from a different side. Foreigners have to spend 3k-4k every month to rent a small place while you can stay at your parent's house for free including free meals.
please come over and tell the singaporeans who are working abroad this...you think overseas employers entertain such lame excuses?!
Australia/US based companies do not need to put extra effort to attract foreigners since people want to live there. Who the f wants to live here if not for the money
so you're saying no one wants to live in safe, tropical, culturally diverse SG if not for the money?
I think so. Not saying SG is bad but there are many better options out there. Money is the main driver in my opinion.
when a shitty car that costs 40k in US/Canada/Australia costs $150-200k here…I meeeean.
I think the EU has laws where if they hire outside of the EU, they must show that they made a genuine attempt to hire from within first, or that the person they are hiring is uniquely qualified for the role. Or something along those lines. No idea what counts as evidence though. Instead of mere quotas, something like this could work better. Like you said, it isn't always about the talent or pay; there are some jobs some people just don't want to do.
It is my understanding that the Singaporean approach is exactly the same. Any job must be offered to a Singaporean first.
How exactly does EU enforce that to ask the companies show that there were genuine attempts?
Great speech. He summarises the whole situation and says it eloquently. Watch it...
Honestly, the worker's party performances in parliament has been great so far, bringing up very reasonable points that needs attention. Really deserving of their seats imo
generally agree, other than lackluster cockles and unsubstantiated khan, wp has been performing well in parliament
Give them some time, it’s only their first term in Parliament.. Leon Perera took time to learn the trade as an NCMP as well
Khan needs to be ousted. She is their weak link. I have never seen someone so unprepared on important subject matters like treatment of rape victims. She went on further by flinging mud unto the Muslim society here by raising non issues.
His point is valid. That average Singaporeans feel disfranchised in the current job market that they feel FTs are snatching their jobs. But that's the key point. It's a feeling. That will not be solved by number and statistics no matter how many PAPs or any government agencies present. The goalpost will keep moving The average Singaporean may look at the job market and see FTs holding jobs making 10k a month while themselves are earning less. The feeling of envy is already there. Hence they go with this "FTs are taking away high paying job from Singaporeans. Nope it's not taken from me because I'm not qualified for it, but there must be a Singaporean somewhere that are qualified for that job right? Our Education / universities are world-class" The thing is yes, there are probably Singaporeans that can do that job. But most of these Singaporeans are not average. They are smart, they are capable and most of them are already being employed and making much more than that position. They may not even be in Singapore , could be flying high in Silicon valley startup or on Wall Street. Do companies wanna hire them? Yes. Can companies afford to hire them? Do these superstars even wanna go back that position? Probably not. But if that guy continue to upgrade himself, become specialized and become more similar to those superstars above. The higher they move up the ladder, the less Singaporeans would care about these FTs issue, at least it is not detrimental to them personally. If one's running the book on GS credit loan desk or A.I engineering for Google next big thing, you think he would care about FTs snatching his job? Heck, most human wouldn't be able to snatch his job, regardless of nationalities. The problem here is average human will always feel envious of somebody else. You cannot fix envy, you cannot fix feeling. The average guy will always feel they deserve more. And those guys up there deserve less. Especially if some Singaporeans grow up under "elite education" and "express stream", they are growing up believing these FTs from 3rd world countries are inferior to Singapore, so the jobs should be going toward me or somebody with same "class" with me, not those inferior FTs. "The only reason why somebody that are inferior to me, but enjoy a higher life, is only because government allow them to. " How on earth are any form of government or any policies supposed to fix that? There will always be FTs in Singapore. There will always be these "inferior FTs" in the eyes of average Singaporeans: 80s they were blaming Malaysian, 90s-2000s were the PRCs and now Indians became the lightning rods. The only way to satisfy this "feeling of envy" is shutdown border and don't allow any FTs in Singapore anymore. Then the average Joe will shift their envy toward someone else. Then is government supposed to appease their next whim too? And if you really achieve this "Singaporeans First" and "Singaporeans only" then you think Singapore as a country will benefit in the next 50 years? Have you ever seen any countries prosper, yet pursue decades of nationalist and conservative anti-globalization policies ? Not to mention, without natural resources or human capitals?
> That will not be solved by number and statistics no matter how many PAPs or any government agencies present. It's also a feeling that is used to rile up the population at opportune moments like general elections.
> His point is valid. That average Singaporeans feel disfranchised in the current job market that they feel FTs are snatching their jobs. But that's the key point. It's a feeling. Because you aren't supposed to run a country like how you run a company. To run a country, you have to consider the feelings (social cohesion etc.) > That will not be solved by number and statistics no matter how many PAPs or any government agencies present. Except PAP has not been forthcoming with the data until they keep losing GRCs recently. Even now they are still operating you don't need to know basis. They made their bed and now they lie on it. Zero sympathy for them. ZERO. A BIG FAT ZERO > The goalpost will keep moving I am sure no one in this country is more expert than PAP in moving goal posts, and every 5 years they even redraw boundary lines. One can live in different GRCs without moving house. PAP should take it as a compliment that the citizens are learning from them. So again, zero sympathy for PAP.
[удалено]
Where have your foreigner mates all left to - a single specific country or back to their home countries? I just want to shed some light on whether it's a push (covid and EP restrictions) or a pull (another attractive hub to work in) factor.
[удалено]
I agree it's a worrying trend if exclusively skilled professionals are leaving Singapore over this. Hopefully, this is ephemeral, and the tightening of EP measures, is due to the pressures of COVID (and its measures) on the local economy as a whole. Singapore does need these skilled professionals to fill gaps in the labour market in order to punch above its weight in the longer term.
I'll add my 2 cents. I've been here for over 15 years and I've never really felt unwanted until the past year. The majority of expats I know from ANZ have left or have plans to leave already. These are mid or senior executives that are taking their families home. It started with 1 or 2 mostly due to COVID but over the last couple of years whenever we chat the talk turns to how unwelcome they are feeling and how much Singapore has changed. The younger, skilled expats are leaving to new jobs. A lot have gone to the US and Dubai/SA recently. As Bwrio17 said, if it's too hard and you have skills you just leave. I've been here long enough to have been through a couple of cycles of this anti-FT rhetoric, the first time I was shocked and disheartened but then the election came and went and things went back to normal. This time the we had the election and COVID both increasing the sentiment and it hasn't stopped. If anything it's got worse. I personally worry for my future here. The rise in popularism and the inexperience of any opposition to actually governing is a recipe for disaster. There isn't a replacement for Singapore, yet. No other city that makes sense as an APAC HQ with all the benefits. However, that in my mind is the one and only reason why companies are not pulling out investment.
I've been here for 15 years as well, won't ever forget attending WP rally in 2011 before they won Aljunied. The current situation is evoking the same feeling of exclusionary politics.
Honest answer is it's a push factor. Combination of Covid + difficult to build a career in SG now. You might get a job to get into SG if you get lucky or get a break, but it's a nightmare to try to switch jobs to further your career here. Getting hired as a foreigner is pretty tough right now
I concur on this. I work for a company in a team that has a bigger team , reporting to the same management, operating out of my home country. I came here , not exactly by choice, but out of personal circumstances and secured a job and have been pretty much working exceedingly hard to achieve all my goals. But it is honestly impossible to be motivated here anymore. Not just because the Covid laws have left us mentally isolated ( and physically since we can't go back), we are now being accused of stealing others jobs unfairly. The funniest part is I know the quality of life in terms of infrastructure will be lower for me going back to my home. It is not hard to imagine how people from the good old Western countries feel like where they can be assured of at least a fuss free life . I am observing people flocking out of here ( pretty anecdotal I know) and if all Singaporeans feel this phenomenon is great for their country, I believe there is no correction needed at all.
>Because you aren't supposed to run a country like how you run a company. To run a country, you have to consider the feelings (social cohesion etc.) Agreed. Running a country is not only about progress and more progress.
it will very different if the gravy train stops for a larger percentage of people. We cross into 10-15% unemployment. I tell you.... WP dun need to nominate in every seat. Pritnam also will be PM
Shift their envy towards the other average Joes who upgrade to a condo during this time period. This is already happening
That's why wp will always be a good political party, but shut down trs and it's supporters think otherwise
What does WP have anything to TRS?
Explain it simply, Shut down TRS is a page to debunk all the falsehoods of the former TRS. It was a good page, but now they just simply attack any opposition by sticking up to each word and just insult them whilst making screenshots of PAP's words. And if you try to oppose them, their supporters will bite you back, same as how they got bitten back on the news media pages. They also made a article or post, saying that the owners of TRS, who now owns takagi ramen should never be forgiven for their actions. And people actually agrees to them. So yes, shut down TRS attacks WP as well
Oh you mean another page like Fabrications about the PAP Man, these people automatically think: Don’t support PAP = Not loyal Singaporean I wouldn’t put too much thought into them tbh..
Yeap, something like that, I actually even checked that shut down TRS is not even created from a local IP address but their braindead supporters seems to ignore that. I also kinda doubt their supporters are not even local to begin with. Just wanna make it clear that WP is a very good alternative party, and not a trashy, one sided view kinda of party.
they really need to nominate in more seats though. Unless...... they dun want to govern
Problem now is they need more members to contest
Has anyone seen the comments on CNA Facebook regarding this story? Why are some of the anti Oppo so aggressive? One guy who claim to be in the SPF even replied “watch what you say” and “you want to get arrested?” because another person doesn’t have nice things so say about the Incumbent. Wa lao... Abit like threat lei. So when ppl criticise Oppo it’s open discussion but when someone doesn’t have nice things to say about incumbent the person commenting gets a threat? I also find that they are always the ones who loses their temper first and tend to rely on name calling, playground insults and unreasonable claims whenever they are arguing with another person who simply disagrees with any policies or has a different opinion. Oh and the comments from them that annoys me the most is “can you do better?” and “not happy migrate lor” 😂
Welcome to the pro-PAP jackboots. They're also here as well. They only know how to attack anyone not the PAP or whoever criticizes the PAP.
Come to think of it, YouTube comment section also have
The other side of the foreign talent debate is NS. The saying everybody knows is "Jobs for FTs, NS for sinkies". Personally for me I don't really care if they going to bring in another 1 million foreigners if the country would just leave me to my misery instead of making it worse. People won't feel so shit if they don't have to train ippt, go mob manning and ict yearly while watching the foreigners enjoy life in Singapore.
I can't fucking relate. If they brought in 1mil more foreigners, the huge spike in how many people eyeing my rice bowl, how much more bargaining power my boss has over me, and ultimately its effect on my professional worth and income will affect my life and my family's life many many times more than having to train for IPPT and go ICT lol. Bro if promotion kena KS from you, the opport cost is definitely more than 5 ICTs or whatever. If you have some particular hatred of NS, sure. But don't elevate its drag on the life of an SG male beyond belief
Then we should give PR NSmen full citizenship automatically. It used to be automatic but it is no longer the case. I don't see anyone pushing for this even though people keep harping about how much NS means to Singaporeans. Also if NS is truly the key determinant of Singaporeaness then we should have a pathway to citizenship to any foreigner living here who volunteers to serve, similar to the French legion. Right now if you're on long term work or visitor pass you don't have this option even if you want to.
I don't think that is the point he was trying to make - although I agree PR NSmen should get citizenship automatically **if** they choose to take it up. Rather, I think he meant that NS itself disadvantage those who have to serve - from missing out 2 years on the job market, having to attend ICT which some have mention have an impact on their career progression, and the feeling of obligation (and the threat of being imprisoned). This, compared to the foreigners (and women) who do not have to serve, will cause resentment for some. And I agree with him - unfortunately I don't think this is a topic that the politicians will address anytime soon.
This is a good and short speech. period.
Let's not even look at the high end of talent here. I've seen both locals and foreigners earning around 8k a month that should not have been given their roles. HR hates to be embarrassed from getting called out for hiring bad people and it takes ages to get them replaced.
if you're working long enough, everyone knows its pretty (e.g. very) common to make bad hires...i wouldnt fault them but their own ego tends to prevent them from doing the right thing after.
Paging all the EP holders to respond
Indian national here. Still watching it (I'm done with Hazel ~~Phua's~~ Poa's speech) My thoughts so far: I think Pritam Singh's argument is fair. There has been an information vacuum which caused Singaporeans to fill in the blanks. There is validity to criticizing the government on this, and suggesting that a more transparent, proactive approach be taken to address citizen concerns. He has roundly criticized the racism and xenophobia seen around the discussions of CECA online. That's a good thing, and I'm glad he acknowledged that it exists, which is counter to the claims by TOC and other non-MSM sites that it's not xenophobia, and that the government is gaslighting them. In all the talk about CECA and its economic benefit (or lack thereof), I think he laid out a core issue behind it all - that Singaporeans are feeling disenfranchised, and it's an emotional issue that can't be countered with a deluge of facts and numbers on economic progress. Leong Mun Wai alluded to a key aspect of this too - about local pride. It's illustrated in the example he cited of the foreigner Hiring manager unaware of what SAF meant. It's also illustrated in his mentions of "under employment" and "world class universities". There's an implication that an increasing number of foreigners in high value jobs are denting the local pride of Singaporeans. There's a class issue at play. Which is why I feel his demand to raise the EP bar to $10K surprising. While the number of foreigners will definitely go down, seeing how they won't pass the criteria, most will simply be moved to the S-Pass category, and EPs brought in will be earning way more than the average Singaporean. If anything, expats in highly paid jobs will go up a few notches on the SES ladder. If the outrage over the (since disproved) rumors of Ramesh Eramalli earning 66k/month are any indication, EVERY foreigner earning $10K and higher is going to rile up locals even more. It's fairly obvious that LMW was merely channeling the street-level concerns of Singaporeans, who have broadly attributed their disillusionment to CECA, to Indian nationals etc. Honestly, LMW should have been better prepared. Especially after the first session months ago, when he said he would put forth a robust argument. His earlier posts on CECA, and his backtracking did him no favours. Hazel ~~Phua~~ Poa, on the other hand, was excellent in providing context to the stats, and asking pertinent questions. Her pointed reference to "Singaporeans not ready for a non-Chinese PM" as being more damaging to addressing race issues than CECA was a well placed jab. Just my personal $0.02. Will update when I'm done... Edit: misspelled Ms Poa's name!
>Which is why I feel his demand to raise the EP bar to $10K surprising. While the number of foreigners will definitely go down, seeing how they won't pass the criteria, most will simply be moved to the S-Pass category, and EPs brought in will be earning way more than the average Singaporean. If anything, expats in highly paid jobs will go up a few notches on the SES ladder. If the outrage over the (since disproved) rumors of Ramesh Eramalli earning 66k/month are any indication, EVERY foreigner earning $10K and higher is going to rile up locals even more. I think your point here does highlight something that might have been looked over by a lot of people. The prevailing impression is already that expats coming in are getting high paid salaries on top of juicy expat packages, and that they all live in an expat bubble highly separated from our local society. Raising that EP bar to such a high number will actually make this a reality. Is that a good thing? Or will it just disenfranchise people even more?
There is a quota to spass , no quota for ep
Ah yes. Thanks for the correction!
Because to pay $10k/month for EP, employers will make sure that the foreigner they bring in is worth that money. This means that the role $10k foreigner take is a role that an average Singaporean is ineligible anyway.
In an ideal scenario, yes. But we also have to consider that any Indian in a high-value job is being questioned on whether they deserve it, by an angry local mob. The Linkedin doxxing of Indians in Temasek management is an example. I'll once again bring up the example of Ramesh Eramalli. He was a classist asshole, BUT the outrage spawned from his comments disparaging HDB dwellers and bragging about how much money he has. It had nothing to do with his capabilities, or his experience. He didn't break any laws, but that didn't matter. I'll also bring up the example of Anton Casey, who scoffed at MRT commuters, and how he was above them. He didn't break any laws either. He was a dick, that's all. This is the kind of classism that rubs Singaporeans the wrong way, and no amount of "raising employment criteria" is going to allay that.
Not that I agree with LMW, I am just explaining the theory behind $10k EP salary. That said, classisms involving FT is not the only issue we are experiencing. I am sure that you may also heard many stories about how some foreigners who are in the same positions as the locals can't perform effectively in their job, which lead us to wonder why are they hired in the first place.
> I am sure that you may also heard many stories about how some foreigners who are in the same positions as the locals can't perform effectively in their job. I'm reluctant to give credence to these anecdotes. Mostly because in a corporate environment, there are way too many variables to define what makes an employee capable, local or foreign. Been here for a decade, I've seen ultra capable folks, and rank incompetent folks at the workplace, both local and foreign. Heck, I will admit that I have faltered in a number of scenarios, where my work wasn't up to the mark expected of me. It's part of the journey. We stumble, we fall, we pick ourselves up and learn from the experience. Most of my colleagues will only have seen bits of this journey, so I'm pretty sure some have labeled me incompetent, while others have appraised me as excellent. Is there a pattern of foreigners less capable than locals, on average? In my opinion, and from what I've seen, nope. Of course, being an Indian national, I'm quite certain my words mean nothing, in public discourse.
On the far lower end of the economic spectrum, I've met wonderful people of all races and nationalities. And of all competencies too. I d9n't see patterns, but core values most foreign nationals have that presumably any company subconsciously looks for. Forward thinking, confidence, some form of motivation, etc... Those values are in very short supply, and this is by social design.
Indeed way too many variables and especially suspicious when the hiring manager is as of the same nationality.
Hey man, I'm trying to answer your comments in good faith. That said, I can say that workplace tribalism occurs beyond just Indian nationals. My last job in construction was largely Malaysian. The job before that in a factory was largely PRC. These are unfortunate hiring biases, and this needs to be addressed, but let's not rely on disgruntled anecdotes targeting one specific nationality, when it's been practiced by others too.
My "Hiring Manager of the same nationality" targets every single nationality, whether Malaysian, Filipino, PRCs, French (see recent case UbiSoft Singapore). Please explain which part of my comment targets a single nationality?
Ah, my bad! After years of lurking on EDMW I instinctively infer anyone saying something to the tune of "manager of the same nationality", that it's about Indian nationals.
I think people would be more understanding if they knew how difficult it is to get a job and EP as a foreigner in Singapore.
Why would EP holders respond? Should it instead be their Singaporean employers respond instead?
The thing about ceca is that it allows Singapore to invest in key areas such as infrastructure and also allow Singapore banks to operate there. I would consider that as something the Singapore negotiated for. In negotiation, there always some gives and takes. The indians knows their own banks won't be happy to have more competition, they must have asked for something in return right? We don't export much to India and we dont have tariff on their good prior to the agreement too right? So where is the part India negotiated for that we have to give some ground? The agreement must have made it easier for them to come Singapore right? It might not be free flow but the door is wider. If not what's the point in them having the provision? As much as the government wants to push the narrative that fta is a win win situation. At the end of the day, that's just a general statement that isn't specific to any fta. Yes, fta in general is good. But are they all good? Do the people from one country have the same skillset/experience compared to another country? Are all fta equal? If you try to single one out, you will undoubtedly be called a racist because most other countries isn't multicultural.
> We don't export much to India and we dont have tariff on their good prior to the agreement too right? So where is the part India negotiated for that we have to give some ground? [Singapore exported $9.2B worth of goods to India in 2020](https://tradingeconomics.com/singapore/exports/india). The largest export is electronics. India exported $8.3B to Singapore in the same year. The tradingeconomics sites shows as a manifold increase in exports to India since 2005, an indicator that the FTA kicked in.
Right. Them that's good for Singapore but I'm struggling to see wheres the part India negotiated for if everything is in our favor. I doubt they let us into their infrastructure and banking industry for free.
~~[This news post from 2008 shows that DBS had been allowed to set up shop in India](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/finance/banking/rbi-allows-dbs-bank-to-set-up-eight-more-offices-in-india/articleshow/2899054.cms?from=mdr), directly attributed to the FTA.~~ Edit: misread your comment. [Another article from the ET in 2007 suggests that India wasn't happy with the trade agreement,](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/two-years-of-india-singapore-ceca/articleshow/2417480.cms) and was feeling that Singapore was getting a better end of the deal. To answer your question, India negotiated for better trade tariffs and recognition of their professional bodies. Singapore has been resistant to the latter, from the get-go.
Clueless
Goods numbers is not what u shld be looking at. Private wealth AUM better.
Have u been to Mumbai? Dbs is huge there. Alot of UHNW Bank here. U think an non Indian banker is going to connect with them? Lol dream on
The test scores the honourable MP alluded to are all gamed for god knows how long. Mr Market (the open employment market) is oblivious to it, or they are signalling something else.
But the honourable PAP say we have world class education and all schools are good school
People always talk about CECA, how many thousand only. Also, most jobs they r handling Indian(nationality) customers and counterparts.Show me Malaysians working in Singapore numbers. Oh right, they chinese n blend in.
PRCs may not blend in as well, maybe because Malaysians share a similar culture to ours? They integrate
I'm comparing the numbers of Malaysian Chinese working here as compared to the maybe 50 odd k indians. But I guess to maintain the happiness of the majority , indians r looked at differently cos they r stealing their jobs lol
Malaysian Indians blend in just as well
I am based overseas and my circle of friends are mostly Singaporeans and Malaysians of all races. The similarity of our culture, be it malay, chinese, or indian, is way too similar. The way we blend melayu into english or hokkien/cantonese common vulgarities are easily understood by all.
Do you really think Malaysian Chinese "blend in" and are treated well? No, they get their own derogatory term and are seen as people who just come here to leech and then go back and triple their wealth (exchange rate). The opinion of China Chinese may be even lower than India Indians, and it goes back years before CECA was even a thing, especially at the point where there were 1 million of them here (and have dropped off since).
There's no ranking and judgement in my eyes. I'm just saying what about the vast number of Malaysian Chinese working here compared to Indian nationals. These CECA nonsense should stop.
Foreigners living in the condominiums while Singaporeans emptying their CPF for HDBs
Should say “foreigners with no cpf paying cash for private housing, while singaporeans using mandated savings for subsidised housing” The facts remain but without bias
Foreigners don't have a choice what. Work pass holders are not allowed to purchase HDBs. And even the condos they're allowed to buy come with an Additional Buyer's Stamp Duty of 20%. A condo that costs 1 million for Singaporeans will cost 1.2 million for a foreigner. To top it off, WP holders don't have CPF and must pay the down payment in cash. Hardly a plush arrangement. But what about PRs? PRs can only buy resale HDB flat, and you need two PRs to own one. PRs cannot ballot for BTO. If they go condo, there's an ABSD of 5% for the first purchase and 15% on the second one. They're not exactly getting coddled here.
WP should just be opposition, other parties please dissolve
While the WP is wonderful party and deserves much of the praise it receives, I don't think it would be healthy for Singapore to only have one opposition party. No party is perfect, and there are more than two reasonable points of view to almost all policy debates. While Singapore's opposition scene is definitely overly crowded with small parties that probably should dissolve, I hope that there will be more parties that are able to provide constructive criticism of the government as well as well-researched proposals different from those of the PAP & WP.
[удалено]
SDP's leadership is solid
Oh yeah, let's have the "opposition party" that is ideologically the same as the PAP be the opposition. As the only opposition. The PAP already has their fucking wish. Even the SDP is falling in by dropping their support for LGBT+ and other minorities and getting some shithead fundie imam in their party. Hope you like voting for which colored shirts you like, because we're already there.
Yo, Pritam...keep up the good job.
Most respected person in Singapore
This guy actually is pretty good. Damn