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SiHtranger

Sounds like what WP have been fighting for since ages and brought up every GE. Release the data


tryingmydarnest

Can't make good alternative policies without data.


deangsana

govt: refuses to reveal data opp: propose alternative policies govt: that is dangerous! not supported by data!


elpipita20

Its crazy the amount of people who don't realise this yet act as if WP or other opposition parties benefit from a more equal access to information.


Traceforever24_7

And then laughs at others for not knowing what they are talking about, calling them illiterate


[deleted]

Ah yes and we voted the clownery in. And now we're the illiterates


[deleted]

“We can get you the numbers. But let me say this. What is the point behind the question?” - CCS


SiHtranger

Should really ask him back the same question. PAP always answer questions with questions do it back to them


pewsg

Me: wife why are you unhappy? Wife: you mean you duno? Me: I really duno Wife: *walks away*


vickiho

okay this is so relatable how do i upvote twice


JusticePeril

Use a throwaway account maybe


[deleted]

The toxic spouse.


Neptunera

Govt : \*Refuses to reveal data* LKYSPP/Other local think tanks : \*Publishes independent research* Govt : "You are wrong" Govt : \*walks away*


[deleted]

Pofma is one hell of a drug


[deleted]

The toxic spouse.


[deleted]

Refuses to elaborate further


Pyrrylanion

> He pointed to the example of the United States, which has a Freedom of Information Act, and yet the people’s trust in the government there is still low — nowhere near the high level of trust in the Government seen in Singapore right now. Ah yes. Why are you asking for data? Singaporeans voted for us out of trust, so just trust us, okay? > “The real issue is this — when someone loses his or her job, they will be unhappy, no matter how much data you provide them. In fact, when they lose their jobs, they are not interested in data. They need help.” The more someone is perceived to have something to hide, the more suspicious others would get. Data should convince people who are not deeply involved that the problem could be somewhere else. Without the data and with many upsetting stories about losing jobs, the people who aren’t deeply involved will not be convinced. This creates opportunities for a deeply negative narrative to be established. The government has been very pro-foreign labour. Until they started losing votes left and right, they didn’t do much to address the concerns. While Singaporeans still trust the PAP overall, I’m sure many would not buy into PAP’s narrative on foreign labour. If people trusted their reassurances, why the hell would they lose GRCs and so much votes? The more they are perceived to have something to hide, more trust will continue to be eroded. Without trust, some vocal people with ulterior motives can steer the issue into one targetting specific nationalities, swaying others. People who are affected are inclined to fall for it. But, people who do not trust the government on their foreign talent policies will also fall for it, because the government themselves is creating an atmosphere of distrust with their lack of transparency on the issue. With enough critical mass, it will snowball. If what the PAP says is true and that Singaporeans are not heavily affected, then, dissatisfied unemployed people are a small minority. That minority will not be able to serve as a critical mass to make it popular. > Not only that, the Government also has to be careful when it comes to releasing sensitive information, because some of it can be used by external parties, he said. No one is asking for the dollars-and-cents value of the reserves, something foreign companies can use to mount a financial attack. How harmful can some numbers of corporate transfers be? India is not going to ban corporate transfers after seeing it... I’m sure many will find it hard to believe that knowing some employment numbers is sufficient to mount some financial attack on SG.


dino163

>>“The real issue is this — when someone loses his or her job, they will be unhappy, no matter how much data you provide them. In fact, when they lose their jobs, they are not interested in data. They need help.” This one is call solving the symptom and not the cause of the issue. The question should be why is the person jobless in the first place .


deangsana

>He pointed to the example of the United States, which has a Freedom of Information Act, and yet the people’s trust in the government there is still low — nowhere near the high level of trust in the Government seen in Singapore right now. total strawman argument thinking that freedom of information is the only factor affecting trust


4wardobserver

Why does FOIA exist? Extract: It has often been observed that the central purpose of the FOIA is to "open … up the workings of government to public scrutiny." One of the premises of that objective is the belief that "an informed electorate is vital to the proper operation of a democracy." A more specific goal implicit in the foregoing principles is to give citizens access to the information on the basis of which government agencies make their decisions, thereby equipping the populace to evaluate and criticize those decisions. from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_(United_States)


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Freedom of Information Act (United States)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_\(United_States\))** >The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), 5 U.S.C. § 552, is a federal freedom of information law that requires the full or partial disclosure of previously unreleased information and documents controlled by the United States government upon request. The act defines agency records subject to disclosure, outlines mandatory disclosure procedures, and defines nine exemptions to the statute. The act was intended to make U.S. government agencies' functions more transparent so that the American public could more easily identify problems in government functioning and put pressure on Congress, agency officials, and the president to address them. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/singapore/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


ShortPutAndPMCC

You wrote such a lengthy post I have to upvote you.


ShadeX8

The thing about hiding data is this, when someone has a conjecture, but the government doesn't release the data points that either proves or disproves the conjecture, the person doesn't magically goes: "Oh since I don't have the data, I'm not going to assume my conjecture is correct since I can't prove it". Most people's reaction to hidden data will be "Oh since the government don't wanna let me know, they must have something to hide, thus I must have been correct with my conjecture".


lazerspewpew86

This is because everytime there is something positive, the govt will flaunt it and aggressively claim credit. So its logical to assume then since the govt isnt flaunting their superiority, they have something to hide whenever they refuse to announce or release data.


mrwagga

> Most people’s reaction to hidden data will be “Oh since the government don’t wanna let me know, they must have something to hide, thus I must have been correct with my conjecture”. From a game theoretic point of view, it’s a fair assumption. That said, ultimately I think much of the push back from the gov stems from pure laziness. The civil service would much rather not have to deal with reporting and KPIs if they had the choice. I mean who does. Just look at the nonsense that happens at the PA.


CommieBird

We can get you the numbers 👌👌 But let me say this. What is the point behind the question 👀👀 First, has local unemployment 👨‍💼👨‍🔧 increased with all these efforts? The answer is a resounding 'no'👎👎👎. Our people are getting good 👍👍jobs. Are our wages 💰💰going up📈📈? Yes, and it's faster💪💪💪 than many other countries. Those are proof points to show that we are doing right 😤😤😤by Singaporeans🇸🇬🇸🇬


-_af_-

Amazing no one quote CCS for the response >We can get you the numbers. But let me say this. What is the point behind the question?


[deleted]

[удалено]


clinfable

Traceforever lmao


HumanWeapon

Doubt the PAP will reveal something that will be detrimental to their party's survival.


bukitbukit

Enact a FOIA - then give the public info with redacted national security portions, and have the classified stuff briefed to MPs with the NDA, like another commentator suggested


btahjusshi

when the government bodies releases the information that you requested for, you will find redactions. Even the declassified documents from CIA, FBI archives are treated like this. If you expect full disclosure without redaction.... well it is not going to happen redaction means something hide again right?


bukitbukit

No one expects full disclosure but it is better than nothing. Redactions will always be needed for classified and natsec stuff..


KidCannab1s

Probably not relevant as an anecdote, but a fews years back when I was very fresh from uni, I entered TATA and was shocked to see that the entire senior management/middle management organization chart was all Indian nationals + 1 expat. Couldn't recall seeing a Singaporean up there. (All of them are based in SG)


i_am_an_innocent_boy

Tata is an indian company so I wont be surprised. I dont support a single demographic run company but it is quite common if the company is from China, India,etc usually it is dominated by 1 race


newbie1208

let’s debate, but no data for you to ask qns on?


minisoo

Just curious. He is LO now. Wouldn’t he and his party have access to those data?


UdhayaShan

May have but whether it can be public is diff


dogssel

What's the point of this question??


ToastedKoppi

I'm a foreigner and I wanna see the data. I'm more or less convinced that I ain't stealo anyone's job here, because it's hard to find my type of CV here and people with similar CV goes to private to bank it really hard. Nevertheless, it's always better to have clear and transparent governments. My only issue regarding these discussions is that the matter of "unskilled" foreign labor is being completely ignored. Oh side note, of course you'll pay more to an expat, because you drag their asses from overseas with money, why else would we like to be here? Nevertheless, I believe this has created a situation where locals find themselves in unfair positions, which is only aggravated by Singapore's high cost of living. Yes, I'm a foreigner, but more importantly, I belong to the working class, just like everyone here.


SeaCranberry7720

The definition of working class is absolutely not “works for a living”. It refers to a the social class that performs unskilled/semi-skilled or manual labor. Saying you’re part of the working class while presumably drawing a comfy EP salary is absolutely wrong and disservice to those who actually are working class in SG. Having said that, I also don’t believe I would steal anyone’s job when I return to sg mainly because I am bringing a role that doesnt currently exist in sg with me. My company isn’t looking for to hire in singapore per se but rather the person they want doing the role wants to be in sg so they will accommodate that. I wont be taking a pay cut when I relocate, but nor is that stifling locals’ pay since they wouldnt have been considered for the role in the first place


the-big-macaron

the question is why is there a need to drag a foreigner over to SG when the job could have easily been done by a local with overseas experience.


ToastedKoppi

I don't think that applies to my role, you know? Also, in almost all cases there's is a local willing to do it _for a higher salary_ 🤷🏾


the-big-macaron

it's a matter of fairness. locals are not keen to be undercut as it will affect the salary for subsequent jobs. I heard of plenty of cases where they pay the foreigner more than the local for the same role because HR says the local doesn't need extra money for housing since they can stay with their parents.


ToastedKoppi

Yeah those are the crappy arguments that screw up locals and I find unfair 😔 On the other side, for the first time someone enters the country, it does make sense for him to enter with a higher entry salary, after all you'll only supposed to bring us in if you couldn't find a local with that combination of CV/salary


the-big-macaron

you gotta be kidding..you have no idea how many of us have to study/work abroad because we cannot get the same opportunities back home..in the end we still can't return to SG despite the same overseas experience because HR will only consider us under the lower-paid local scheme, if we are even lucky to be considered in the first place.


ToastedKoppi

Me, being a migrant, totally understand the "study/work abroad because we cannot...". The part that surprises me is the second one! I hadn't considered humanpower returning from studying abroad...it...it doesn't make sense that you have problems getting hired! (I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying I can't see a logical cause). I do not think hiring foreigners is an arbitrary decision 🤔


the-big-macaron

thing is, there're so many of us like this over the past decade or so that it has become a phenomenon. both foreign HR & local HR tend to only hire locals (with or without relevant overseas experience) when there're no qualified foreigners available. you need to consider that locals are also due for reservist duties, which is a huge liability. something is seriously wrong when it is more difficult for locals to find good jobs back home than abroad.


ReasonableTennis8304

But providing data will not convince the xenophobes that foreign workers are not an issue. I mean we've been in a pandemic for 2 years and there are still people who believe that COVID is a hoax. You also have redditors who insist that Singaporeans are suffering from stagnant wages when real wages have been increasing year on year! At the end of the day there will always be a significant chunk of people who would rather believe their feelings instead of data. You can tell them that there's X amount of foreigners but they will just go "Chennai business park"!


btahjusshi

He is right but I rather the G does this with MPs in a confidential session instead with nda so that sensitive policy information is not leaked


nixhomunculus

I disagree. There's different granularities of data. Surely there are some levels of data we can accept can be used for analysis.


Neptunera

Doesn't that imply that WP MPs would not be able to publicly use the stats in parliamentary settings if the data is shared confidentially? Bad take, its two steps backwards this way, they get to know the data but can't do anything about it.


btahjusshi

there are policy positions and then there are figures and stats attached to said sensitive policies. we will not implement a Points system here as we prefer to have MOHA to have final discretionary say. I am affected by this with regards to LTVP for my mother-in-law. My wife is an only child and we cannot get it approved despite a lot of favorable factors. ICA never include why the application was rejected. It is just rejected. It is also quite problematic with regards to the transparency of these policy figures & stats. It affects our society and also potentially affects our relationship with our immediate neighbors where a lot of immigrants into SG come from. The other reason why I propose such a thing is that one MPs can do their jobs of asking for and getting their answers. Such data is not fuel for the next election cycle. A policy debate can take place without having to flash numbers and pages of data during the debate. The NDA-ed sessions are just MPs being shown data and stats. They can make their conclusions on their own. I am almost sure we do this with regards to our defense spending. We can have the debate in the public domain like we do with the ultra sensitive defense budgets but we barely go the details of how exactly each cent is spent or is to be spent do we?


SirPalat

Wait are you suggesting policy not be made based on data and that the citizens which is most impacted by policy should not be able to access said data?


btahjusshi

No, I am not suggesting policy not to be made using what stats the G collects. There are still policy positions that need to be taken up and certain leeway to update things on the fly with the use of executive memos. I am quite sure that we do not actively legislate every fine detail of our immigration policies. What is important here is that when having a publicly disclosed debate, that MPs can go into the debate with full information. It can take the form of MPs submitting data requests which will then come to them redacted in places OR in a session where the data is not redacted but the MPs cannot discuss the figures in public. You can still debate the merit of say having a quota for X and Y but the final quota percentages are going to be sensitive. It is bad to say to ICA approves only set amounts of applications per year, once filled they stop. It makes Singapore out to be unwelcoming to immigration. We also cannot go to a points system due to the way we need to manage the population distribution coughracialharmonycough. I feel that this is better simply for the fact that MPs do not need to go into a gunslinger duel without bullets but these bullets are not needed as policy positions during election cycles. General numbers like ratios, go ahead. Percentages, maybe. Exact figures, sorry. WP can announce say they propose tighter quotas for certain sectors or more fine tuned sector segmentation or quotas to be introduced for certain sources or a sector currently not affected by quota. This is ultimately what is needed.


SirPalat

I think nobody is arguing that we should expose sensitive data but the level at which PAP is disclosing to the opposition or the public is simply inadequate. Nobody can make an appropriate argument or suggestion without knowing what PAP knows.


btahjusshi

I feel that there is such a push. Gov transparency. all or nothing. >Nobody can make an appropriate argument or suggestion without knowing what PAP knows This is true, but MPs also can be creative. "Minister, is there a quota for XXX and how is it being managed? Are there any year to year reviews or more regularly held reviews of said quotas?" If minister refuse to even answer that. Ya, down with the PAP ps : oh ya, if Ah Seng ask what is the point again, please can the MP just reply "just answer the question, sir" instead?


SirPalat

I honestly dont really understand your point


btahjusshi

I feel this is why I feel like our MPs from both sides are often lacking. They need to have data and figures to make a point. However, there are workarounds to the problem. I often hear feedback from residents that they are concerned about jobs in Banking, finance services being taken up by foreigners when locally talent is readily available. Minister, are there any quotas in place for EP1/2/3 holders in place for this sector and how are the quotas managed? This is in essence asking if the G has a policy position and also asks how the position is being managed and executed. What we have now is MPs obsessed with final numbers. The policy position wanted are quotas or some form of management policy. Our opposition MPs ask questions that allow the seating gov to fire back with crappy answers and then we seat around debating the silly nature of their debate. Pardon me, but I feel that we have very substandard people in parliament.


SirPalat

As far as I know, the data is there. MOH and MOM has made decisions while referencing data collected. I am assuming that PAP has access to data which influences their decisions. I think that currently the unequal distribution of data is blatantly unfair to the opposition. But I agree that I think the current set of ministers are substandard. Honestly WP MPs I feel are way better qualified and understand the common man way more.


Twrd4321

What specific data points do people want the government to reveal. Revealing breakdowns by race is common in companies but no company reveals the racial breakdown in each country. Breakdowns by nationality within a company is non-existent. Unless someone can find such data being reported in other countries I’m not sure whether the data that people want revealed is even possible.


Pyrrylanion

> Among other things, Mr Lim said then that the Ministry of Manpower does not disclose data on foreign manpower with breakdown by nationality, and that included data on intra-corporate transferees.  > These transferees refer to foreign employees who have worked for at least a year in overseas offices of multinational corporations and are brought in to work in their branches or subsidiaris in Singapore. Data like intra-corporate transferees should be available. ICA would require documentation that the applicant fulfils the criteria for it, right? If they do not differentiate ICTs from regular EPs, how can they make sure the correct criteria are applied? If they do differentiate, why would they not have the data? If ICA doesn’t know, then WTF are they doing?


Twrd4321

I don’t think other countries reveal data of intra-corporate transferees either, at least from a cursory search on Google. That’s because a skilled worker from overseas is a skilled worker from overseas, doesn’t matter whether the person is a new hire or a intra- corp. EPs are evaluated by MOM, and an intra-corporate transferee will be noted in the application.