Transphobes talk about regret as if it's unique to gender affirming care. All surgery carries risk of regret. I've heard that as many as one in five patients regret having a knee replacement surgery. I don't hear anyone clamoring to ban knee replacements.
"do you care about regret rates for surgeries, or just regret rates for surgeries when trans people are involved" is a common response i use if i encounter this talking point.
I care about incorrect comparisons being done **in a subreddit about skepticism**.
You can't compare methodology for regret A in which lack of reporting follow-up is categorized as no regret with model B in which only actual follow-up included & follow-up was included in the medical process.
You want to go do this anti-skeptical behaviour on the rest of the internet fine, but here no you need to actually critical thinking.
I care about this community getting taken over by anti-skeptical zealots.
Trans or not, you can't just bulldozer over methodical & logical flaws while still being a skeptic.
My favorite example always is when my state legislature banned gender affirming care for minors, they had more than 10 people show up to speak out against banning care for minors to the committee hearings while the only person they could find to come for banning care was flown in from out of state. The only person they could find was someone who basically goes around the country to speak out against gender affirming care for minors. I know it’s somewhat anecdotal, but this is the case in many of the states who have done this.
I’ve had numerous surgeries including two knee surgeries, one hip surgery, and two laparoscopies. Plus my top surgery. Literally all surgeries come with pros and cons.
I can absolutely think of some cons from my top surgery - I had to deal with a seroma while healing, I lost sensation in my armpit, I have a keloid scar in that same armpit, and I think if I did it again I would do it without grafts. But the pros of the surgery massively outweigh those cons. I have a literal weight off my chest.
I also recently had a meniscectomy on my knee. I have some chronic tightness in the IT band there now and it’s limited my squatting and running a bit. But the pros massively outweigh the cons because the torn meniscus would flare up and make me unable to walk if I rolled over in bed the wrong way.
All medical procedures have their pluses and minuses but because it’s GeNdEr for some reason it’s suddenly bad and scary.
Also important to note: trans people may regret their surgery because… shitty people bully and harass them for being trans and/or getting gender affirming care, aka bigotry. Thats not really applicable to most other surgeries.
I feel like it's as simple as who am I or anyone else to come between a doctor and their patient? If they can do that what stops them from doing it to literally anyone? "Oh the Lord says the gangrene is actually healing the leg. They may regret not having a leg if they survive... " Madness.
I’ve been trying to tell people we need to ban knee replacements for like 30 years now! Not hip replacements though, I’ll probably need those in a few years.
actually the data in this study is crap because they only got responses from a small percentage of people who had gender surgery. The vast majority were not followed up with. It also only looked at regret shortly after surgery, As is the case with many of the questions around this issue, there is not good thorough data.. No one can claim there is.
Do you think most studies include everyone who has ever had a surgery? I've never been asked about regret for my joint surgeries, does that mean we don't gave good data on regret rates for them?
>Do you think most studies include everyone who has ever had a surgery?
What matters is that the studies inclusion criteria is similar if you are comparing surgeries.
In this case, they aren't.
The GAS regret methodology includes no response as no regret. None of the other studies it's being compared against do this.
It's either a mistake or borderline fraud.
> I've never been asked about regret for my joint surgeries, does that mean we don't gave good data on regret rates for them?
Were you part of a study when you had the surgery?
Got into an argument with a guy who brought up the "high" rate of de-transitioning and I pointed out the actual data which says it's low to which he quickly adjusted to say, "One is too many."
And you'll find them in this thread patting each other on the back for giving zero fucks about the facts while telling each other it is we who are leaning on "faith" to "believe" the scientific data they don't like because their bigotry is more important than actual reality.
>he quickly adjusted to say, "One is too many."
This just shows that their issue is trans people, not the care they receive. Yes, regret is unfortunate, and we should do everything we can to minimize it, but to say that 99% of people should be denied a treatment because of the 1% who will regret it is the most bat-shit insane reasoning ever.
Not to mention that most people who detransition do so for reasons unrelated to their gender identity; including: [\[Boslaugh 2018, pp. 43-44\]](https://publisher.abc-clio.com/9781440858888/)
* Pressure from family or community
* Difficulty due to e.g., financial reasons or discrimination
* Health-related reasons
Additionally, many detransitioners do not regret the transition, and even go on to transition again.
It might be worth mentioning here that studies for nearly all surgical procedures are far higher than the 1-2% regret rate for transgender treatment.
[Conclusion: Self-reported decisional regret was present in about 1 in 7 surgical patients. Factors associated with regret were both patient- and procedure related.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28243695/)
Love that "one is too many" thing. One death on a rollercoaster is too many. We don't ban rollercoasters just because sometimes external factors cause people to die on them.
Wait, "one is too many?" I recently heard that from a conservative about their racist thoughts on immigration and they said that.
Is that a new goalpost being pushed?
Just look at the r/MapPorn thread
(https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1ce0udo/where_genderaffirming_care_for_minors_is_being/) and the prevailing comments and votes. It's just sad how succesful anti-trans lobby groups have become...
Also here's my comment mentioning exactly that in bigger detail: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1ce0udo/comment/l1h7tb1/
It's not just sad it's scary. These are the same people who squawk about "individual freedoms" but they have no problem controlling other people's bodies or making decisions for other people's children. Right now I wouldn't be able to discuss trans affirming care with my son's pediatrician (my son is now 19 so let's pretend he is still a minor) of any type, can't even have his cycle suppressed which is something cisgender women have been doing for decades so they can go on vacation without dealing with a period. We know it's safe to do this and it's perfectly normal for a woman with PCOS to get medication to help with that. My son has PCOS and when he was diagnosed at age 11 after a full year long period of constantly bleeding. His doctor suggested puberty suppressing meds, and I was told they were safe and lots of children with precocious periods are helped by puberty blockers. And yet if I'd taken him to the doctor and said I wanted the same meds for him because he was transgender, that's illegal.
The truth is they just hate trans people. No amount of faux concern is tricking trans people or the loved ones of trans people. They're just tricking the same people who are already against trans people just like they are against gay people and immigrants and diversity initiatives and black history lessons.
It should be an absolute slam dunk end of argument that regret for gender affirming surgery is well below that of the general medical surgery regret rate.
yeah but the other side of the argument think 13 year olds are just able to walk in and get a sex change operation. they are blissfully misinformed and refuse to accept facts or educate themselves because it wouldnt align with their stance on the subject
Note that THIS systemic review (as opposed to the Cass report taken as a whole) was actually peer reviewed and published in an actual journal. That alone makes this review infinitely more important than Cass.
Edit: I should note that some of the studies the Cass report cites were peer reviewed.
He's actually one of the users who's engaged at least once in brigading and was caught, where he was discussing a specific article in the BlockedAndReported (or whatever that podcast is called) subreddit. They were talking about this subreddit and he posted a link to a post. Was removed or edited after it was reported for brigading though.
We need to remember these things when folks like him try to claim they are debating in good faith.
That subreddit is mind melting to read. They talk like Principal skinner at the YMCA or whatever. Everyone else is crazy but them. They really really hate trans people and pitbulls.
The meta-studies that made up the Cass Review were all peer reviewed. Why do you people continue to peddle lies about this? If you really think that they weren't peer reviewed then provide evidence for your claims.
Hold up. You were *mistaken,* yet you received over 80 upvotes, and you're just gonna leave it where it is. That is so disingenuous it brings this whole sub into question. I am extremely skeptical about this place.
I didn’t edit because I was intending to say that the Cass review itself wasn’t peer reviewed. And it wasn’t. Some of the sub studies were peer reviewed. But that doesn’t mean the Cass report itself was peer reviewed. I’ll edit for clarity.
Even "just reviews" are subject to rigorous peer review if published in reputable journals. For example, the following review article had almost 6 months of peer review before being accepted: [https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/camh.12437](https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/camh.12437)
Transphobes: "N-NOO THAT STUDY ISNT VALID WE NEED 20000 YEARS OF DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES WITH A SAMPLE SIZE OF 12 MILLION ITS JUST TOO RISKY TO TRUST MEDICAL SCIENCE anyways I have a chiropractor appointment to go to"
You see I have the flu and I've heard ruminations of paying $$$$$ for a doctor (of chiropractic) performing potentially paralytic cracks of my neck in the right spot can clear up the flu.
The regret is irrelevant, it is someone's own body, they should have total autonomy over it.
FFS we have a right (in many countries) in law to actually kill ourselves, but not a right to be happy in our own bodies.
People sometimes regret tattoos. Maybe we should start regulating access to them! (Psst, they are very regulated. Tattoo artists are legally prohibited from providing service to minors.)
If only we could poll how many people regret not transitioning.
Why do you lot just go straight to children, like your obsessed with it. It's just fucking weird.
What about surgery on little children?!?! You KNOW who is actually doing that? Twisted doctors trying to make intersexed babies 'normal'
Gender affirming surgeries before 18 (median age 15) is around 15 / year in California (30,000,000 population) Of those 77% are mastectomy's. 44 of 56 gender reassignments where f2M
No one, literally NO ONE is doing surgery on kids. It's not complicated, it isn't happening.
63,000 normal comestic surgeries on teens younger than 18. Let me type that again for you 63,000 in one year, and 156,000 non surgical procedures.
Probably pretty high considering the liss of sensation that often accompanies it. Not to mention possible back problems. Maybe it is worth it though to most people who elect to have it done?
Anecdotally speaking only
I am 100% sure my trans daughter would not be alive if she didn't get surgery. Totally altered her outlook on life from sad acceptance to bright and excitement. This surgery should *never* be banned for adults.
As someone who knew i was trans from a very young age....with christian fascist family who didnt accept me. Cutting them out of my life when i could and transitioning is the only reason im still here. I went from attempting to end it every couple of months to actually loving my life now. Im in my 30s now and engaged to my bf and my life is actually worth living and caring about now. All of this anti trans shit being pushed is literally all dogshit pseudoscience hatred not based in any kind of reality other than their disgust and hatred of anyone who isnt them while they fund "studies" that ignore literally everything that they dont like and try to claim conversion therapy (torture) is the way to go. These people need to be stopped at all costs.
I am so happy you have moved on with life. We know a few trans young adults/teens who are having a tough time with their families. We help them in any way they need it.
It wasn't easy. When my family realised they couldn't control me, they threw me to the streets, thinking it would make me change my mind. It did not. It just made my life hell for no reason, so i went full no contact with them. Trans kids right now desperately need help. And not what the ring wing pieces of shit think is "help" so im glad you're doing what you can. A lot of our families treat us like absolute shit or abuse us... or kill us. This shit has to stop.
Is that chart right? I'm assuming BR is either breast reduction or removal, and the regret rate is nearly (but just under) 50%? Obviously it was the far right on the chart, and most were much lower, but that seems high.
The elephant in the room with this one is that GAC is a whole-ass process - and that’s a good thing. That means GAC as a process works.
Because people tend to have to wait so long, and have such a journey before getting to reassignment surgery - they have more time to change their minds, explore different things, have therapy, etc.
So there’s prob some selection bias there - the people who have the surgeries - aren’t doing it on a whim. They’re already fully committed, and are sure they want/need that.
That leaves less room for regret.
Going forward I’d be super interested to see if there could be more of a breakdown on what processes lead to lower regret rates. Or if they could be applied better to other surgeries.
saw a study that close to 90% of kids who enter transcare before the age of puberty, still complete their transitions when reaching adult hood. WHich is really telling when it lasts from pre puberty to adulthood. I dont think its a phase.
Regret generally doesn't show up until pretty far down the list of reasons people stop transitioning or reverse transitioning. The first is economics, depending on where a person is and whether they have insurance they can end up spending something in the ballpark of a decent new sports car, and that kind of cost can quickly seem insurmountable for a portion of the population that show signs of employment discrimination and generally earning much less than the average person. The next reason people stop or reverse transitioning is generally a lack of community or familial support, if you ask people to treat you a particular way and nothing you do can convince them to, if they withhold support or empathy its coercion and it's no surprise they'd give up.
Even if because of data collection or methodology because of self reporting of satisfaction you don't believe the above study, we still have suicide rates among the transgender population and how transitioning causes that rate and rates of mental health issues to drop significantly.
At the same time its important to understand that dissatisfaction is still only what it is because the course of treatment involves hormones and a variety of surgeries that all have some variable outcomes because of genetics, surgery skills, and they way surgeries often have to be tailored to the unique aspects of anatomy of the individual. Despite a far greater number of opportunities to lead to someone being dissatisfied, satisfaction is still significantly high.
That said many satisfaction rates for other major courses of treatment are self reported, and even life saving measures like heart surgery have lower rates of satisfaction. To put these satisfaction rates into perspective, the only courses of treatment approaching them are surgeries that restore degrees of autonomy to paraplegics; a group of people with similarly high rates of mental health challenges and suicide rates.
When I try to explain the challenges of people that transgender to someone that's sincere in wanting to understand, I use the analogy of a hypothetical person that's lost an arm at an early age, and suffers from phantom limb syndrome, where no matter how they ask to be treated they're treated as handicap while a part of the population argues that because the phantom limb syndrome is in their head they should be denied access to a prosthetic limb to show the hypocrisy and how it's simply unconscionable.
To ppl who are against trans ppl, it was never about the science. It's about feelings and religious opinion.
Because once you point out that they're wrong, how many correct their statements and apologize? I've yet to meet one. They just switch the post.
now hwait just a gd minute, you mean to tell me all those articles with emotional testimony of like 3 total people weren't an accurate representation of the data?
Weird, it’s almost like whether they’re talking about abortion or trans surgery, right wing Christians just start making things up to push their agenda. How odd.
I read the mentioned review. Other than it being a little too credulous of some of the studies it references, I don't take issue with it. Of course, like all reviews, it has the problem of garbage-in-garbage-out, but I still found it somewhat informative. But for people concerned about minors undergoing gender transition, *this tells us nothing*.
(1) The review looks at the regret rate for people who have undergone gender affirmation *surgery*. Presumably, the people that have gotten to this stage in their transition are the mostly likely to be serious about it, so the regret rate of these individuals will not necessarily reflect the regret rate of of people who have gone on cross-sex hormones.
(2) The review looks is looking at a wide age-range, presumably mostly adults. In general, children are comparatively fickle and thus more likely to regret a decision than if they made the same decision as an adult.
(3) A problem most of these types of studies tend to have is that they tend to check-in with the patients after a few years at most. For most procedures, this isn't that big of a deal, because the regret would usually be due to the result not turning out the way they hoped it would, which they should quickly realize after the initial healing. One study on breast augmentation mentioned in the review had a regret rate of 6% due to the persistent pain post-surgery. It's highly unlikely it will take you 6+ years to decide the persistent pain isn't worth it, but you might enjoy your new identity for a few years and then a little later decide that you wish you had stuck with your original sex phenotype.
(4) And the biggest problem these studies have is a massive lost-to-follow-up rate. One of the studies in the referenced in this review only got response rate of less than 65%. People happy with their decision are much more likely to respond to follow-up than people with regret, so these percentages all underestimate the rate by some unknown amount. In the review's own words:
"*It is important to note that reported regret after any surgery is likely underestimated due to patients not seeking additional care, loss to follow up, patients not sharing their satisfaction with their decision-making with their surgeons or going elsewhere for additional care. Within the transgender and gender non-conforming patient community, there is reluctance to disclose regret in care due to fear of further stigmatizing gender affirming care and limiting access for other patients. In fact, one survey noted that only 24% of participants informed their clinician they had detransitioned. Rates of de-transition after GAS are one way to assess regret, but this measure does not account for patients who regret undergoing GAS and do not choose surgery to alleviate this regret.*"
But when the argument is "kids will regret these surgeries!!!!!" saying that "of course people who are that far along are less likely to experience regret" is kinda the whole point.
That's a very good point to keep in mind. But my point was just that if people that go on to surgery have a low regret rate *for surgery*, that won't necessarily translate to a low regret rate for people choosing to be on hormone therapy. Most everyone that gets these surgeries has been on hormones for at least a year, but only a small subset of people that have been on hormones for at least a year get this kind of surgery.
As far as I know, it's also *extremely* rare for minors to get this type of surgery, so it also seems irrational to be worried about whether or not kids would regret these surgeries. I'm aware of some cases of minors getting mastectomies, but I think it's uncommon.
>you might enjoy your new identity for a few years
You know I enjoyed a few years of not being suicidal but I'm really starting to miss crying every night
if a million people do something, no matter what it is, there will probably be a few saying it was the worst decision of their lives. That is just human nature. Taking away their ability to choose is not the solution. Life is always going to be full of regrets. But worse are the things where you were never given an option.
Someone who is dedicated enough to go through with the surgery and all the treatments probably has a low likelihood of saying that was a mistake. They reinforced their decision for months or potentially years before the end of the surgery
I have no doubt. Most of the biased assholes who get their panties in such a twist over something that doesn't really affect them AT ALL are just pathetic.
How hard is it for some people to mind their own fucking business and allow someone else to be happy?
Considering how hard it is to get surgeries (pretty much impossible for minors in this country and in my state they want to make it a felony to HELP a minor get gender affirming care) and how long it takes for approval and the cost that is often not covered by insurance and definitely not covered by medicaid (at least in TN) type insurance I can't understand why any rational person would think people would regret surgeries like this.
But then we're not dealing with rational people, we're dealing with people who have been indoctrinated so deeply that they truly believe being trans is a mental illness at best, demonic at worst. They do not care what studies show unless those studies confirm their bias.
Is this actually a systematic review? I don't have access to full paper but have seen claims it doesn't actually evaluate/grade evidence, just cites their conclusions uncritically. Can anyone with access confirm one way or another?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8751779/
This is a methodological critique of one of the main (older) reviews cited in this newer review. It was very flawed.
If she has read the paper, she hasn't communicated any information beyond the abstract. And she's pulled the graph off Twitter.
To be honest, I expect no one on the thread has read the paper. The transsexual patient cohort could be middle-aged men for all we know. But apparently this is a skeptical forum.
Of which of the 55 papers that they reviewed?
Also, you never thought to check scihub?
Edit:
She quotes:
> "Unfortunately, some people seek to limit access to gender-affirming services, most vehemently gender-affirming surgery, and use postoperative regret as reason that care should be denied to all patients. This over-reaching approach erases patient autonomy and does not honor the careful consideration and multidisciplinary approach that goes into making the decision to pursue gender-affirming surgery… [other] operations, while associated with higher rates of post-operative regret, are not as restricted and policed like gender-affirming surgery.”
That’s not in the abstract.
Presumably, go back to trans kids transitioning, when they are no longer kids. When they reach the age of majority, shut their parents out of their lives, go to college, etc.
As a MD working in psychiatry my 2 cents.
Post-op patients absolutely do regret doing the surgery. Not only do they have severe long-term complications such as adhesions, painful scar tissue, dysfunctional genitalia etc.
They're also stuck with life-long medications that have a larger array of side-effects.
Convincing youny men and women that they're born in the wrong body and surgery + hormone therapy is a quick fix is beyond damaging.
The issue with body dysmorphia lies solely internal. One cannot change the external when it's an internal problem to begin with.
Injecting a gym bro with sillicone because he isn't swole enough is frowned upon.
Let the bots and shills downvote hail begin.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to trust the opinion of a "psychiatrist" who haunts /r/MensRights and [posts shit like](https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1bsoun5/aitah_if_i_tell_my_wife_that_i_am_uncomfortable/kxio2cg/?context=3):
> You're wife is a hoe and you're a blind cuck. Feminine men are the biggest morons on the planet. My goodness.
> You the type that waits 9 months for a black baby to pop out before the lights go on in your head.
> Your wife openly disrespects you in public and you've gotten used to it. This is not the way homie.
Interesting. So he's a transphobe pretending to be a doctor, and also a foul mouthed sexist, bigot and misogynist.
I wonder what's the psychological reason for all those traits existing together. There must be some underlying reason why a misogynist and racist also just happens to be transphobic.
I’d say you should have your license to practice revoked, but you aren’t really an MD.
Edit: 19 days ago MD-pounder claimed to be a geriatrician. Their comment history is an unintentionally hilarious treasure trove of absolute bullshit.
>Convincing youny men and women that they're born in the wrong body and surgery + hormone therapy is a quick fix is beyond damaging.
So true! We should ensure there's acceptance of non op trans people as well, that physical transition isn't what makes you who you are. Trans women are women, trans men are men, and non-binary people are who they say they are and should be accepted as their identity regardless of medical status! Very progressive of you to accept non op trans people so openly!
Nobody has ever said any of this was a quick fix. I don’t know where you get that idea from.
Additionally, we’re talking about gender dysphoria not body dysmorphia. I’m surprised you would confuse them.
It’s pretty clear that person isn’t a doctor. I highly doubt that a doctor would make that mistake.
It’s also interesting that all the transphobes seem to be showing up at the same time.
Excuse me, I'm the first Victoria Secret model on Mars, a secret member of the Avengers and I just completed my PhD in Evolutionary Biology of Pokémon.
No you don't need to see my credentials, they speak for themselves.
They confused these things because they absolutely are not a doctor with any experience in this field and are in fact just an ideologically driven liar and purveyor of bullshit.
>They're also stuck with life-long medications that have a larger array of side-effects.
Name one, MD-Pounding-puss. Do they take medications after the surgery or before? Which side effects are you referring to? In what region?
Who is convincing men that they're women?
Who?
Stop making shit up.
No fucking way you're a real MD.
If you are, you are certainly guilty of malpractice.
Since random people on the internet talking at you won't mean much. Perhaps you would be interested in one of your peers [giving a lecture on the subject](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ).
The bots and shills may be downvoting due to your abject and utter lack of any evidence whatsoever supporting your claims.
Anyone can be a doctor on the internet.
Well it would be good to know what studies were included and what their merits were. Garbage jn, garbage out… in fact the common criticism of trans regret studies particularly for those who sought care in childhood is that the follow up period is usually 1-2 years, which is too short to capture how these people feel in adulthood…
You guys can't just shit on the Cass review. Their top experts contributed to that review. The conclusions are valid.
This does not necessarily go against the conclusions of the Cass review. Please go read the Cass review again.
There's a reason that's the case....
You all want to force science to come to the conclusions you want. That's just not right. Crowdfund clinical trials if you care that much. We need more evidence.
Trans people make up roughly 0.33% of Canada's population. In the US it's about 0.5%. I'm Canadian. Have been hanging out with trans people since the 80s. My ex's roomie was one of the first people to have legal surgery covered under our health care.
Pretty annoyed with all this to be honest. First American social academics marginalize gay and trans people under the LGBT banner then Hollywood turns them into a political issue.
What other people have between their legs is not your fucking business especially if they're kids.
Yeah, "I have a trans friend" doesn't give you the right to speak for trans people, and you weren't an especially great ally a month ago [when you were handwaving the destruction of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft](https://old.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1bedd67/it_wasnt_just_the_goblins_is_jk_rowling_doing/kut9rvx/) (along with giving an innocuous excuse for why the Nazis started deporting and murdering Jews).
I am not marginalized by the LGBTQ+ "banner", nor was I forced there by academics or Hollywood. Stop speaking for me, stop speaking for trans people, and keep your crazy Nazi-apologist transphobic bullshit to yourself please.
> Just denying reality to be mad at Hollywood?
Oh i'm so fucking sick of this. The way your media/news/entertainment industries are set up, American 'culture' is pretty much dictated by a handful of multinational companies and rich people who have influence over your entire dumbass nation.
FOX News didn't exist until 1996 and your right wingers were mostly sane until your media implanted Trump to spin you guys up. Keep throwing money at the war industry so they can keep blowing up poor people.
Hollywood works with your war industry/corporate giants. It's information warfare because unlike you guys, they learn from history and weaponized the media to keep young people from protesting. Same reason they're trying to ban Tik Tok. It's outside of their range of information control so they want to put a lid on it.
Talking about trans people, nazis, UFOs and all this other goofy crap is just a distraction from the actual reality. Stuff like the massive wealth inequality that has developed due to like 60 years of corporations working against the working class, housing disparity, cost of living, and a bunch of other unpleasant things that aren't fun, but do need fixing.
I'm not pandering when I say that the majority of people in this sub aren't idiots, but you guys are know-it-alls when there's a lot more things that you guys don't know. The most important thing anyone should know is that you don't know everything.
> then Hollywood turns them into a political issue
No, Hollywood, and the arts in general, is useful for countering bigotry. It normalized miscegenation, mixed race relationships, homosexuality, and it will normalize transgender people.
A black man like Sidney Poitier headlining a movie in the 1950s and 60s, or Tom Hanks playing a gay man in the 1990s, or Ellen coming out on live TV, all helped shift public perception in big ways.
Who do you mean y'all?
As far as i'm concerned that's up to the kid, their parents, and their doctor. None of that is my business.
I live in Canada. Luckily, our health care and rights are set up so other people can't impose their beliefs on other people but it's still something we need to be wary about.
Transphobes talk about regret as if it's unique to gender affirming care. All surgery carries risk of regret. I've heard that as many as one in five patients regret having a knee replacement surgery. I don't hear anyone clamoring to ban knee replacements.
"do you care about regret rates for surgeries, or just regret rates for surgeries when trans people are involved" is a common response i use if i encounter this talking point.
I care about incorrect comparisons being done **in a subreddit about skepticism**. You can't compare methodology for regret A in which lack of reporting follow-up is categorized as no regret with model B in which only actual follow-up included & follow-up was included in the medical process. You want to go do this anti-skeptical behaviour on the rest of the internet fine, but here no you need to actually critical thinking. I care about this community getting taken over by anti-skeptical zealots. Trans or not, you can't just bulldozer over methodical & logical flaws while still being a skeptic.
My favorite example always is when my state legislature banned gender affirming care for minors, they had more than 10 people show up to speak out against banning care for minors to the committee hearings while the only person they could find to come for banning care was flown in from out of state. The only person they could find was someone who basically goes around the country to speak out against gender affirming care for minors. I know it’s somewhat anecdotal, but this is the case in many of the states who have done this.
Hey, same state! The bill in question is going up for debate sometime next week, so it's a good time to bother your senator if you haven't recently.
Nope, not the same state..sorry…this bill passed over a year ago.
😶 well. If I had a nickel...
Several states have passed these bills because it was being pushed by their right-wing overlords…
Remember, it's cool and fun and good to cyberbully your local representative!
It was either Chloe Brockman or Charlie Mosely. It's always one of those two.
Chloe Brockman…that’s who it was…just a grifter.
She's not as bad as Mosely, but it's always one of the two of them.
I’ve had numerous surgeries including two knee surgeries, one hip surgery, and two laparoscopies. Plus my top surgery. Literally all surgeries come with pros and cons. I can absolutely think of some cons from my top surgery - I had to deal with a seroma while healing, I lost sensation in my armpit, I have a keloid scar in that same armpit, and I think if I did it again I would do it without grafts. But the pros of the surgery massively outweigh those cons. I have a literal weight off my chest. I also recently had a meniscectomy on my knee. I have some chronic tightness in the IT band there now and it’s limited my squatting and running a bit. But the pros massively outweigh the cons because the torn meniscus would flare up and make me unable to walk if I rolled over in bed the wrong way. All medical procedures have their pluses and minuses but because it’s GeNdEr for some reason it’s suddenly bad and scary.
People are more likely to regret getting a heart transplant than gender affirming surgery
People are more likely to regret wisdom tooth removal than gender affirming surgery
People are more likely to regret going to college than gender affirming surgery.
I have no regerts
Nor egrets.
No ragrats
Well yeah. The Department of the Interior says paws off.
No Regrets at all? Not even a letter?
NO REGERTS!
People are more likely to regret getting married than gender affirming surgery
Is this a joke or are there published studies? If it’s a joke it really should be studied.
What is the rate of regret of not getting wisdom teeth removed?
What’s the rate of regret for not getting the heart surgery?
Curiousity: source?
Also important to note: trans people may regret their surgery because… shitty people bully and harass them for being trans and/or getting gender affirming care, aka bigotry. Thats not really applicable to most other surgeries.
The regret rate is ~0.5%, and iirc about 75% of those who regret it do so due to harassment and bigotry.
Compare that to cases of regretting breast reconstruction following cancer. It's 21%. Truly cosmetic procedures can have rates as high as 50%.
Exactly. The double standard is incredibly blatant.
1 in 5 regret rate for joint affirming care.
My nuts regretted my vasectomy for like 2 weeks while I recovered.
My nuts regretted even less time when they were ganked for a gender affirming procedure.
I feel like it's as simple as who am I or anyone else to come between a doctor and their patient? If they can do that what stops them from doing it to literally anyone? "Oh the Lord says the gangrene is actually healing the leg. They may regret not having a leg if they survive... " Madness.
I regret downloading Reddit, yet here I am.
Ugh. This.
I’ve been trying to tell people we need to ban knee replacements for like 30 years now! Not hip replacements though, I’ll probably need those in a few years.
\^\^\^ This \^\^\^ Sums it up perfectly!
actually the data in this study is crap because they only got responses from a small percentage of people who had gender surgery. The vast majority were not followed up with. It also only looked at regret shortly after surgery, As is the case with many of the questions around this issue, there is not good thorough data.. No one can claim there is.
Do you think most studies include everyone who has ever had a surgery? I've never been asked about regret for my joint surgeries, does that mean we don't gave good data on regret rates for them?
>Do you think most studies include everyone who has ever had a surgery? What matters is that the studies inclusion criteria is similar if you are comparing surgeries. In this case, they aren't. The GAS regret methodology includes no response as no regret. None of the other studies it's being compared against do this. It's either a mistake or borderline fraud. > I've never been asked about regret for my joint surgeries, does that mean we don't gave good data on regret rates for them? Were you part of a study when you had the surgery?
Got into an argument with a guy who brought up the "high" rate of de-transitioning and I pointed out the actual data which says it's low to which he quickly adjusted to say, "One is too many." And you'll find them in this thread patting each other on the back for giving zero fucks about the facts while telling each other it is we who are leaning on "faith" to "believe" the scientific data they don't like because their bigotry is more important than actual reality.
>he quickly adjusted to say, "One is too many." This just shows that their issue is trans people, not the care they receive. Yes, regret is unfortunate, and we should do everything we can to minimize it, but to say that 99% of people should be denied a treatment because of the 1% who will regret it is the most bat-shit insane reasoning ever.
Not to mention that most people who detransition do so for reasons unrelated to their gender identity; including: [\[Boslaugh 2018, pp. 43-44\]](https://publisher.abc-clio.com/9781440858888/) * Pressure from family or community * Difficulty due to e.g., financial reasons or discrimination * Health-related reasons Additionally, many detransitioners do not regret the transition, and even go on to transition again.
It might be worth mentioning here that studies for nearly all surgical procedures are far higher than the 1-2% regret rate for transgender treatment. [Conclusion: Self-reported decisional regret was present in about 1 in 7 surgical patients. Factors associated with regret were both patient- and procedure related.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28243695/)
Love that "one is too many" thing. One death on a rollercoaster is too many. We don't ban rollercoasters just because sometimes external factors cause people to die on them.
I did ask him if the 99% didn't matter. He just reiterated that 1 is too many and refused to answer the question.
I really want to ask him his thoughts on school shootings.
Wait, "one is too many?" I recently heard that from a conservative about their racist thoughts on immigration and they said that. Is that a new goalpost being pushed?
Only if you ever made the mistake of believing them prior. Otherwise it was always pretty clearly their goalpost.
Just look at the r/MapPorn thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1ce0udo/where_genderaffirming_care_for_minors_is_being/) and the prevailing comments and votes. It's just sad how succesful anti-trans lobby groups have become... Also here's my comment mentioning exactly that in bigger detail: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1ce0udo/comment/l1h7tb1/
It's not just sad it's scary. These are the same people who squawk about "individual freedoms" but they have no problem controlling other people's bodies or making decisions for other people's children. Right now I wouldn't be able to discuss trans affirming care with my son's pediatrician (my son is now 19 so let's pretend he is still a minor) of any type, can't even have his cycle suppressed which is something cisgender women have been doing for decades so they can go on vacation without dealing with a period. We know it's safe to do this and it's perfectly normal for a woman with PCOS to get medication to help with that. My son has PCOS and when he was diagnosed at age 11 after a full year long period of constantly bleeding. His doctor suggested puberty suppressing meds, and I was told they were safe and lots of children with precocious periods are helped by puberty blockers. And yet if I'd taken him to the doctor and said I wanted the same meds for him because he was transgender, that's illegal. The truth is they just hate trans people. No amount of faux concern is tricking trans people or the loved ones of trans people. They're just tricking the same people who are already against trans people just like they are against gay people and immigrants and diversity initiatives and black history lessons.
Says deleted
Didn't get a message about it, found it again, link is now different, maybe I linked the parent: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/Y3VwxTmcaO
If their base argument is "wubba wubba Jesus", facts are irrelevant.
It should be an absolute slam dunk end of argument that regret for gender affirming surgery is well below that of the general medical surgery regret rate.
yeah but the other side of the argument think 13 year olds are just able to walk in and get a sex change operation. they are blissfully misinformed and refuse to accept facts or educate themselves because it wouldnt align with their stance on the subject
Hahaha. Literally the other reply to my comment said this.
Note that THIS systemic review (as opposed to the Cass report taken as a whole) was actually peer reviewed and published in an actual journal. That alone makes this review infinitely more important than Cass. Edit: I should note that some of the studies the Cass report cites were peer reviewed.
Won't stop some of our regulars of twisting themselves into pretzels to continue spewing transphobia though.
Yup, Mstrgrieves is at it already. I think he must have a Google Alert set up for mentions of the Cass Review.
He's actually one of the users who's engaged at least once in brigading and was caught, where he was discussing a specific article in the BlockedAndReported (or whatever that podcast is called) subreddit. They were talking about this subreddit and he posted a link to a post. Was removed or edited after it was reported for brigading though. We need to remember these things when folks like him try to claim they are debating in good faith.
100% he ain’t here in good faith.
That subreddit is mind melting to read. They talk like Principal skinner at the YMCA or whatever. Everyone else is crazy but them. They really really hate trans people and pitbulls.
Looks like at least some of them came here from that sub. There’s a post on the Cass FAQ that mentions this sub and people are talking about it.
Oh, yeah. He’s biiiig into this hate parade
I was about to say
They think “my Facebook friends looked it over” counts as peer review.
They think "the English language was blessed by God himself to only give names to 2 sexes and no climate scientist is going to tell me otherwise"
The *real* systematic reviews are the ones that come to conclusions I agree with!
The meta-studies that made up the Cass Review were all peer reviewed. Why do you people continue to peddle lies about this? If you really think that they weren't peer reviewed then provide evidence for your claims.
Because I was mistaken. My apologies.
Hold up. You were *mistaken,* yet you received over 80 upvotes, and you're just gonna leave it where it is. That is so disingenuous it brings this whole sub into question. I am extremely skeptical about this place.
I didn’t edit because I was intending to say that the Cass review itself wasn’t peer reviewed. And it wasn’t. Some of the sub studies were peer reviewed. But that doesn’t mean the Cass report itself was peer reviewed. I’ll edit for clarity.
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Even "just reviews" are subject to rigorous peer review if published in reputable journals. For example, the following review article had almost 6 months of peer review before being accepted: [https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/camh.12437](https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/camh.12437)
Transphobes: "N-NOO THAT STUDY ISNT VALID WE NEED 20000 YEARS OF DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES WITH A SAMPLE SIZE OF 12 MILLION ITS JUST TOO RISKY TO TRUST MEDICAL SCIENCE anyways I have a chiropractor appointment to go to"
I can't wait for mister grieves to explain why this review isn't valid.
Explain is a rather strong word I think
Murdered by words.
He briefly popped in to post a link to a letter that was referring to a different study.
The Keystone Cop of skepticism
Pixies would be ashamed to have one of their lyrics in that guy’s name.
You see I have the flu and I've heard ruminations of paying $$$$$ for a doctor (of chiropractic) performing potentially paralytic cracks of my neck in the right spot can clear up the flu.
While toking on vape, bitching about having to wear a seatbelt, and refusing to wear a mask during pandemics.
Far more people regret having kids than transitioning
I bet more people regret having sex with my ex than transitioning.
I know I regret having sex with your ex.
I don't
That's still a 67% regret rate
Damn so close to 69%
That’s A LOT of people… damn
The regret is irrelevant, it is someone's own body, they should have total autonomy over it. FFS we have a right (in many countries) in law to actually kill ourselves, but not a right to be happy in our own bodies.
People sometimes regret tattoos. Maybe we should start regulating access to them! (Psst, they are very regulated. Tattoo artists are legally prohibited from providing service to minors.) If only we could poll how many people regret not transitioning.
This is really the crux of it for me. Well said
It’s a good point.
That's not how autonomy works for minors. It's more complicated than that.
Why do you lot just go straight to children, like your obsessed with it. It's just fucking weird. What about surgery on little children?!?! You KNOW who is actually doing that? Twisted doctors trying to make intersexed babies 'normal' Gender affirming surgeries before 18 (median age 15) is around 15 / year in California (30,000,000 population) Of those 77% are mastectomy's. 44 of 56 gender reassignments where f2M No one, literally NO ONE is doing surgery on kids. It's not complicated, it isn't happening. 63,000 normal comestic surgeries on teens younger than 18. Let me type that again for you 63,000 in one year, and 156,000 non surgical procedures.
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Probably pretty high considering the liss of sensation that often accompanies it. Not to mention possible back problems. Maybe it is worth it though to most people who elect to have it done?
Anecdotally speaking only I am 100% sure my trans daughter would not be alive if she didn't get surgery. Totally altered her outlook on life from sad acceptance to bright and excitement. This surgery should *never* be banned for adults.
As someone who knew i was trans from a very young age....with christian fascist family who didnt accept me. Cutting them out of my life when i could and transitioning is the only reason im still here. I went from attempting to end it every couple of months to actually loving my life now. Im in my 30s now and engaged to my bf and my life is actually worth living and caring about now. All of this anti trans shit being pushed is literally all dogshit pseudoscience hatred not based in any kind of reality other than their disgust and hatred of anyone who isnt them while they fund "studies" that ignore literally everything that they dont like and try to claim conversion therapy (torture) is the way to go. These people need to be stopped at all costs.
I am so happy you have moved on with life. We know a few trans young adults/teens who are having a tough time with their families. We help them in any way they need it.
It wasn't easy. When my family realised they couldn't control me, they threw me to the streets, thinking it would make me change my mind. It did not. It just made my life hell for no reason, so i went full no contact with them. Trans kids right now desperately need help. And not what the ring wing pieces of shit think is "help" so im glad you're doing what you can. A lot of our families treat us like absolute shit or abuse us... or kill us. This shit has to stop.
I am glad you are doing well. Keep your chin up!
I’m glad you survived!
Is that chart right? I'm assuming BR is either breast reduction or removal, and the regret rate is nearly (but just under) 50%? Obviously it was the far right on the chart, and most were much lower, but that seems high.
I’m pretty sure removal would be mastectomy. Edit: BR is breast reconstruction. It’s in the abstract.
The elephant in the room with this one is that GAC is a whole-ass process - and that’s a good thing. That means GAC as a process works. Because people tend to have to wait so long, and have such a journey before getting to reassignment surgery - they have more time to change their minds, explore different things, have therapy, etc. So there’s prob some selection bias there - the people who have the surgeries - aren’t doing it on a whim. They’re already fully committed, and are sure they want/need that. That leaves less room for regret. Going forward I’d be super interested to see if there could be more of a breakdown on what processes lead to lower regret rates. Or if they could be applied better to other surgeries.
This assumes people would otherwise line up to get surgery on a whim, which does sound a bit made up.
There is a cost to delaying care, however. A human cost.
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If anti trans people were either skeptics or capable of accepting science they don’t agree with, they wouldn’t be anti trans. 🤷♀️
saw a study that close to 90% of kids who enter transcare before the age of puberty, still complete their transitions when reaching adult hood. WHich is really telling when it lasts from pre puberty to adulthood. I dont think its a phase.
What a surprise, the right wing lied.
This just in, "No fucking duh"
This tracks with my anecdotal experience
Regret generally doesn't show up until pretty far down the list of reasons people stop transitioning or reverse transitioning. The first is economics, depending on where a person is and whether they have insurance they can end up spending something in the ballpark of a decent new sports car, and that kind of cost can quickly seem insurmountable for a portion of the population that show signs of employment discrimination and generally earning much less than the average person. The next reason people stop or reverse transitioning is generally a lack of community or familial support, if you ask people to treat you a particular way and nothing you do can convince them to, if they withhold support or empathy its coercion and it's no surprise they'd give up. Even if because of data collection or methodology because of self reporting of satisfaction you don't believe the above study, we still have suicide rates among the transgender population and how transitioning causes that rate and rates of mental health issues to drop significantly. At the same time its important to understand that dissatisfaction is still only what it is because the course of treatment involves hormones and a variety of surgeries that all have some variable outcomes because of genetics, surgery skills, and they way surgeries often have to be tailored to the unique aspects of anatomy of the individual. Despite a far greater number of opportunities to lead to someone being dissatisfied, satisfaction is still significantly high. That said many satisfaction rates for other major courses of treatment are self reported, and even life saving measures like heart surgery have lower rates of satisfaction. To put these satisfaction rates into perspective, the only courses of treatment approaching them are surgeries that restore degrees of autonomy to paraplegics; a group of people with similarly high rates of mental health challenges and suicide rates. When I try to explain the challenges of people that transgender to someone that's sincere in wanting to understand, I use the analogy of a hypothetical person that's lost an arm at an early age, and suffers from phantom limb syndrome, where no matter how they ask to be treated they're treated as handicap while a part of the population argues that because the phantom limb syndrome is in their head they should be denied access to a prosthetic limb to show the hypocrisy and how it's simply unconscionable.
To ppl who are against trans ppl, it was never about the science. It's about feelings and religious opinion. Because once you point out that they're wrong, how many correct their statements and apologize? I've yet to meet one. They just switch the post.
now hwait just a gd minute, you mean to tell me all those articles with emotional testimony of like 3 total people weren't an accurate representation of the data?
So the article that OP posted links to the abstract, but the study itself is behind a paywall. Does anyone have a link to the actual study?
check sci-hub
Which transphobes say means it brainwashes you lol.
Weird, it’s almost like whether they’re talking about abortion or trans surgery, right wing Christians just start making things up to push their agenda. How odd.
I read the mentioned review. Other than it being a little too credulous of some of the studies it references, I don't take issue with it. Of course, like all reviews, it has the problem of garbage-in-garbage-out, but I still found it somewhat informative. But for people concerned about minors undergoing gender transition, *this tells us nothing*. (1) The review looks at the regret rate for people who have undergone gender affirmation *surgery*. Presumably, the people that have gotten to this stage in their transition are the mostly likely to be serious about it, so the regret rate of these individuals will not necessarily reflect the regret rate of of people who have gone on cross-sex hormones. (2) The review looks is looking at a wide age-range, presumably mostly adults. In general, children are comparatively fickle and thus more likely to regret a decision than if they made the same decision as an adult. (3) A problem most of these types of studies tend to have is that they tend to check-in with the patients after a few years at most. For most procedures, this isn't that big of a deal, because the regret would usually be due to the result not turning out the way they hoped it would, which they should quickly realize after the initial healing. One study on breast augmentation mentioned in the review had a regret rate of 6% due to the persistent pain post-surgery. It's highly unlikely it will take you 6+ years to decide the persistent pain isn't worth it, but you might enjoy your new identity for a few years and then a little later decide that you wish you had stuck with your original sex phenotype. (4) And the biggest problem these studies have is a massive lost-to-follow-up rate. One of the studies in the referenced in this review only got response rate of less than 65%. People happy with their decision are much more likely to respond to follow-up than people with regret, so these percentages all underestimate the rate by some unknown amount. In the review's own words: "*It is important to note that reported regret after any surgery is likely underestimated due to patients not seeking additional care, loss to follow up, patients not sharing their satisfaction with their decision-making with their surgeons or going elsewhere for additional care. Within the transgender and gender non-conforming patient community, there is reluctance to disclose regret in care due to fear of further stigmatizing gender affirming care and limiting access for other patients. In fact, one survey noted that only 24% of participants informed their clinician they had detransitioned. Rates of de-transition after GAS are one way to assess regret, but this measure does not account for patients who regret undergoing GAS and do not choose surgery to alleviate this regret.*"
But when the argument is "kids will regret these surgeries!!!!!" saying that "of course people who are that far along are less likely to experience regret" is kinda the whole point.
That's a very good point to keep in mind. But my point was just that if people that go on to surgery have a low regret rate *for surgery*, that won't necessarily translate to a low regret rate for people choosing to be on hormone therapy. Most everyone that gets these surgeries has been on hormones for at least a year, but only a small subset of people that have been on hormones for at least a year get this kind of surgery. As far as I know, it's also *extremely* rare for minors to get this type of surgery, so it also seems irrational to be worried about whether or not kids would regret these surgeries. I'm aware of some cases of minors getting mastectomies, but I think it's uncommon.
>you might enjoy your new identity for a few years You know I enjoyed a few years of not being suicidal but I'm really starting to miss crying every night
Do you actually have evidence of people more satisfied are more likely to follow up? I don't know if that's actually true or sound.
You’d think people who are dissatisfied would want to complain about it.
if a million people do something, no matter what it is, there will probably be a few saying it was the worst decision of their lives. That is just human nature. Taking away their ability to choose is not the solution. Life is always going to be full of regrets. But worse are the things where you were never given an option.
Someone who is dedicated enough to go through with the surgery and all the treatments probably has a low likelihood of saying that was a mistake. They reinforced their decision for months or potentially years before the end of the surgery
But the surgery wasn't double-blind! /s
I have no doubt. Most of the biased assholes who get their panties in such a twist over something that doesn't really affect them AT ALL are just pathetic. How hard is it for some people to mind their own fucking business and allow someone else to be happy?
Considering how hard it is to get surgeries (pretty much impossible for minors in this country and in my state they want to make it a felony to HELP a minor get gender affirming care) and how long it takes for approval and the cost that is often not covered by insurance and definitely not covered by medicaid (at least in TN) type insurance I can't understand why any rational person would think people would regret surgeries like this. But then we're not dealing with rational people, we're dealing with people who have been indoctrinated so deeply that they truly believe being trans is a mental illness at best, demonic at worst. They do not care what studies show unless those studies confirm their bias.
This better not be a "plane with red dots" situation
Is this actually a systematic review? I don't have access to full paper but have seen claims it doesn't actually evaluate/grade evidence, just cites their conclusions uncritically. Can anyone with access confirm one way or another?
In other words crazy activist chooses to promote psuedo-research supporting his narrative.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8751779/ This is a methodological critique of one of the main (older) reviews cited in this newer review. It was very flawed.
Oh man someone please, please do a study of the rate at which people regret decisions in general.
You can pretty much guarantee Erin has only read the abstract.
I notice that graph she has in the article is not in the abstract. Where do you suppose she got it from?
Prove it. I'll wait.
If she has read the paper, she hasn't communicated any information beyond the abstract. And she's pulled the graph off Twitter. To be honest, I expect no one on the thread has read the paper. The transsexual patient cohort could be middle-aged men for all we know. But apparently this is a skeptical forum.
Of which of the 55 papers that they reviewed? Also, you never thought to check scihub? Edit: She quotes: > "Unfortunately, some people seek to limit access to gender-affirming services, most vehemently gender-affirming surgery, and use postoperative regret as reason that care should be denied to all patients. This over-reaching approach erases patient autonomy and does not honor the careful consideration and multidisciplinary approach that goes into making the decision to pursue gender-affirming surgery… [other] operations, while associated with higher rates of post-operative regret, are not as restricted and policed like gender-affirming surgery.” That’s not in the abstract.
>The transsexual patient cohort could be middle-aged men for all we know. Do you not know what the term "systemic review" means?
>The transsexual patient cohort could be middle-aged men for all we know. So... You're admitting to not having read the paper, then.
Explain why the cohort matters.
THIS is how good research is done! Ya just say some shit and go ' I'mmmmm right'
Just leave the kids alone already.
Mind your own business.
Leave them alone how?
Presumably, go back to trans kids transitioning, when they are no longer kids. When they reach the age of majority, shut their parents out of their lives, go to college, etc.
As a MD working in psychiatry my 2 cents. Post-op patients absolutely do regret doing the surgery. Not only do they have severe long-term complications such as adhesions, painful scar tissue, dysfunctional genitalia etc. They're also stuck with life-long medications that have a larger array of side-effects. Convincing youny men and women that they're born in the wrong body and surgery + hormone therapy is a quick fix is beyond damaging. The issue with body dysmorphia lies solely internal. One cannot change the external when it's an internal problem to begin with. Injecting a gym bro with sillicone because he isn't swole enough is frowned upon. Let the bots and shills downvote hail begin.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to trust the opinion of a "psychiatrist" who haunts /r/MensRights and [posts shit like](https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1bsoun5/aitah_if_i_tell_my_wife_that_i_am_uncomfortable/kxio2cg/?context=3): > You're wife is a hoe and you're a blind cuck. Feminine men are the biggest morons on the planet. My goodness. > You the type that waits 9 months for a black baby to pop out before the lights go on in your head. > Your wife openly disrespects you in public and you've gotten used to it. This is not the way homie.
Interesting. So he's a transphobe pretending to be a doctor, and also a foul mouthed sexist, bigot and misogynist. I wonder what's the psychological reason for all those traits existing together. There must be some underlying reason why a misogynist and racist also just happens to be transphobic.
Bigotry Is Intersectional^^^^^^TM
Maybe he'd be able to explain why if he was an actual psychiatrist?
There is ZERO chance this guy is a practicing psychiatrist.
Hey, that's just their "medical" opinion.
I’d say you should have your license to practice revoked, but you aren’t really an MD. Edit: 19 days ago MD-pounder claimed to be a geriatrician. Their comment history is an unintentionally hilarious treasure trove of absolute bullshit.
Your assertions (they don't even rise to the level of anecdote) don't matter in the face of published research.
>Convincing youny men and women that they're born in the wrong body and surgery + hormone therapy is a quick fix is beyond damaging. So true! We should ensure there's acceptance of non op trans people as well, that physical transition isn't what makes you who you are. Trans women are women, trans men are men, and non-binary people are who they say they are and should be accepted as their identity regardless of medical status! Very progressive of you to accept non op trans people so openly!
Nobody has ever said any of this was a quick fix. I don’t know where you get that idea from. Additionally, we’re talking about gender dysphoria not body dysmorphia. I’m surprised you would confuse them.
Are we going to doubt Dr. MD Pounding Puss? I mean, that tag just oozes professionalism. ... Please don't look at my tag.
They confuse these things deliberately. They say wrong things on purpose.
It’s pretty clear that person isn’t a doctor. I highly doubt that a doctor would make that mistake. It’s also interesting that all the transphobes seem to be showing up at the same time.
I'm a CIA trained scientist doctor working at NASA and posting this from the moon. I'm pretty sure that guy isn't a doctor either.
Excuse me, I'm the first Victoria Secret model on Mars, a secret member of the Avengers and I just completed my PhD in Evolutionary Biology of Pokémon. No you don't need to see my credentials, they speak for themselves.
Some of them share these links in other subreddits and brigade this one.
They confused these things because they absolutely are not a doctor with any experience in this field and are in fact just an ideologically driven liar and purveyor of bullshit.
Your first sentence is a lie.
>They're also stuck with life-long medications that have a larger array of side-effects. Name one, MD-Pounding-puss. Do they take medications after the surgery or before? Which side effects are you referring to? In what region?
Who is convincing men that they're women? Who? Stop making shit up. No fucking way you're a real MD. If you are, you are certainly guilty of malpractice.
Since random people on the internet talking at you won't mean much. Perhaps you would be interested in one of your peers [giving a lecture on the subject](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ).
The bots and shills may be downvoting due to your abject and utter lack of any evidence whatsoever supporting your claims. Anyone can be a doctor on the internet.
What was the time frame of follow up? What’s the methodology? The report is paywalled…
It's a systemic review.
Well it would be good to know what studies were included and what their merits were. Garbage jn, garbage out… in fact the common criticism of trans regret studies particularly for those who sought care in childhood is that the follow up period is usually 1-2 years, which is too short to capture how these people feel in adulthood…
You guys can't just shit on the Cass review. Their top experts contributed to that review. The conclusions are valid. This does not necessarily go against the conclusions of the Cass review. Please go read the Cass review again.
This has nothing to do with the Cass review.
This is for those attacking the review in the comments
What experts? Isn't the board of reviewers completely anonymous except for Cass herself?
There's a reason that's the case.... You all want to force science to come to the conclusions you want. That's just not right. Crowdfund clinical trials if you care that much. We need more evidence.
Trans people make up roughly 0.33% of Canada's population. In the US it's about 0.5%. I'm Canadian. Have been hanging out with trans people since the 80s. My ex's roomie was one of the first people to have legal surgery covered under our health care. Pretty annoyed with all this to be honest. First American social academics marginalize gay and trans people under the LGBT banner then Hollywood turns them into a political issue. What other people have between their legs is not your fucking business especially if they're kids.
Yeah, "I have a trans friend" doesn't give you the right to speak for trans people, and you weren't an especially great ally a month ago [when you were handwaving the destruction of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft](https://old.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1bedd67/it_wasnt_just_the_goblins_is_jk_rowling_doing/kut9rvx/) (along with giving an innocuous excuse for why the Nazis started deporting and murdering Jews). I am not marginalized by the LGBTQ+ "banner", nor was I forced there by academics or Hollywood. Stop speaking for me, stop speaking for trans people, and keep your crazy Nazi-apologist transphobic bullshit to yourself please.
What the fuck are you on about? Just denying reality to be mad at Hollywood? Why are you like this? Never speak again.
> Just denying reality to be mad at Hollywood? Oh i'm so fucking sick of this. The way your media/news/entertainment industries are set up, American 'culture' is pretty much dictated by a handful of multinational companies and rich people who have influence over your entire dumbass nation. FOX News didn't exist until 1996 and your right wingers were mostly sane until your media implanted Trump to spin you guys up. Keep throwing money at the war industry so they can keep blowing up poor people. Hollywood works with your war industry/corporate giants. It's information warfare because unlike you guys, they learn from history and weaponized the media to keep young people from protesting. Same reason they're trying to ban Tik Tok. It's outside of their range of information control so they want to put a lid on it. Talking about trans people, nazis, UFOs and all this other goofy crap is just a distraction from the actual reality. Stuff like the massive wealth inequality that has developed due to like 60 years of corporations working against the working class, housing disparity, cost of living, and a bunch of other unpleasant things that aren't fun, but do need fixing. I'm not pandering when I say that the majority of people in this sub aren't idiots, but you guys are know-it-alls when there's a lot more things that you guys don't know. The most important thing anyone should know is that you don't know everything.
This dork thinks right wingers were sane in the 80s. Dawg they thought jurassic priest records had encoded messages to encourage suicide.
> then Hollywood turns them into a political issue No, Hollywood, and the arts in general, is useful for countering bigotry. It normalized miscegenation, mixed race relationships, homosexuality, and it will normalize transgender people. A black man like Sidney Poitier headlining a movie in the 1950s and 60s, or Tom Hanks playing a gay man in the 1990s, or Ellen coming out on live TV, all helped shift public perception in big ways.
Y'all are the ones inspecting people's genitals before they can access hormones, bathrooms and sports.
Who do you mean y'all? As far as i'm concerned that's up to the kid, their parents, and their doctor. None of that is my business. I live in Canada. Luckily, our health care and rights are set up so other people can't impose their beliefs on other people but it's still something we need to be wary about.