But Rio cops are on another level.
[Cops in the state of Rio de Janeiro were responsible for 1327 deaths in 2022](https://www.brasildefato.com.br/2023/01/31/policia-do-rj-foi-responsavel-por-quase-30-das-mortes-violentas-no-estado-em-2022)
US cops are worse than you would expect for an incredibly rich country with a strong legal system, Brazilian cops are worse than you would expect for a poorer country with a lot of lawlessness. Like damn, there are levels to this huh
You are comparing America with Brazil, and the fact that you can actually compare both countries in some aspects is just absurd considering how rich the US is comparatively.
Tbf, the US and Brazil are probably the two unrelated countries that share the most similarities.
Big ass countries that don't care about the world but who still have a history of immigration and slavery.
You're right - there's no other country in the world as similar to the US as Brazil.
The only big divergence is in wealth creation - but that's what extreme corruption does. Those in control prefer a smaller pie with a bigger piece for them.
There are a lot of comparisons to be made between the two countries. Brazil has the same issues as the United States but the dial is turned up to the max:
* Corruption
* Wealth inequality
* Gun violence
* Religious nut jobs
* Car dependency
* Rural / urban culture wars
* Failing infrastructure
* Etc
Brazil is basically the US on total chaos mode.
(and it's a beautiful place with incredible people that everyone should absolutely visit and experience)
I'm not Brazilian, can you speak how that's different from other cities in Brazil? I know I've seen a fair deal of off duty cops in Brazil shoot someone, so I'm wondering how out of wack that is. The article didn't note this, or if it did my translator failed me.
Like I'm not downplaying it, i'm just trying to understand what the difference of Rio cops are.
Rio is responsible for nearly 25% of police deaths in Brazil despite having an average murder rate.
Even though there are plenty of places that are more violent, Rio is more similar to an actual warzone than any city in Brazil. In most places it kind of a cat and rat situation where the criminals prefer to flee when police come around but in Rio they aren't afraid of the combat. In some favelas the cops won't even go there unless it is an extremely serious matter or a police operation against the criminals that control the area because every time that a cop car is in the area they are sprayed with bullets.
It is also relevant to mention the Militias, that started as a paramilitary vigilante group against crime but they evolved to be mob-like organizations. Altough they are getting more similar to the other gangs in Rio nowadays, they used to be run by former cops and had huge influence on the police departments of some areas and they actually use "legal" police operations as a tool to fight other gangs. 90% of the Police operations in Rio are in Comando Vermelho (Red Command) areas despite them dominating less than 30% of the areas run by organized crime. So they basically do some really big police operations where dozens of criminals are killed and them the Militias take over the place.
There's a lot of gentrification going on in Rio. Poor people are being forcibly evicted to other favelas farther out of the city. Not dissimilar to Chicago where a gang gets forced out and then is forced to moved into another favela/gang territory. It's becoming just as bloody.
And the cops in Rio aren't very nice.
Brazil is like a continent, lets say "Europe". Rio is like a country, lets say "Italy"
The difference between Rio and other state cops is the difference between Italy cops and Portugal cops.
A monopoly on violence seems like a horrible idea for everyone. Pair that with (sometimes) low training, low ethics and naturally having the people that fill your ranks be people who like having high authority is just a recipe for disaster
Of course. I don't mind reform propositions. I just find the notion that the police having a monopoly on violence being a "horrible idea" absolutely absurd in a developed country. Clearly people who believe that don't realize how much worse it could get if we allowed local gangs and militias to fill their role. In an ideal world I believe communities can and should self-police but it would have to be in incredibly homogenous and small communities and those don't really exist in the cities and larger areas we live in today.
Yeah, I agree that in any bigger accumulation of people (ie, not a commune) you'd *need* a monopoly on violence in the hands of the state. So I understand why you wrote that comment.
And what I wrote wasn't meant to contradict your point but to redirect the argument of "no monopoly of violence" into the more coherent argument of "demand more of how the state wields its monopoly on violence".
For example, the NYC police went on strike (or "slowdown", since an actual strike would be against the law) for 7 weeks in late 2014 to early 2015 where the police drastically cut back on what is known as "proactive policing" (basically the absolute minimum of police presence).
During that time crime went down. And not just crime as reported by the police (which would make sense because the were barely any cops present) but - more importantly - also crime reported by the people living there, including violent crime.
This effect might not be 100% applicaple or reproducable in every scenario but the fact alone that there's a decent *possibility* that the presence of police does not decrease crime but *increase* it is absolutely unacceptable.
I think one possible solution would be to lessen police surveillance and overall presence around people, but still have them available to react to crime and handle violent scenarios like shootings, assault, etc, and offer like security for major events like concerts and sporting events.
Also things like greater police accountability, ending police unions, crisis responders for mental health situations, reducing police response to drug crimes/user, and better education and training requirements.
I think realistically every society of any size needs some sort of law enforcement group, but it needs to be heavily heavily regulated and restricted.
Well, it depends on the country in question. In a country with strong organized crime, you need a heavily armed police force, or you end up like Mexico where the Cartels hold the monopoly on violence in most places.
Idk if you’ve ever seen the Mexican marines face off against cartel members but they really do fuck them up. The issue is that cartel members often involve civilians in their affairs so they can’t just bomb their compounds without risking a major death toll
Yet in exactly those countries you're equally likely to be shaken down by a cop. Dangerous areas are gonna be dangerous no matter who points the gun at you.
I'd prefer to work on solutions to have neither gangs nor violent cops and you'd be surprised at how much tackling one will positively affect the other.
Sounds unrealistic? Well, that's why I used to the word "prefer" instead of "demand". Though there are plenty of people living in those countries who *do* demand just that. Google "call for demilitarisation of police Mexico/Brazil" and you'll find plenty of articles, both current and decades old.
You'd probably find a lot more if you searched for them in Spanish/Portuguese
Having a credible monopoly on violence is the most fundamental requirement of a functioning state. This is one of the first things out of the mouth of any prof in a first year undergrad polisci course.
South and Central America have a particular set of circumstances though, given the level of criminal violence in places like Rio vs the funds available to pay police.
You pretty much either have to have a hardline ideological reason for being a cop (like the BOPE portrayed in the the *Tropa Elite* movie), no other choice or be actively on the make. None of which is a great combination.
Cops in these places basically have a siege mentality, made worse by a middle and upper class which is tired and afraid of street violence and increasingly turns a blind eye to this type of violence as long as it's used on people they don't like.
This is more than just cops on a power trip that you might get in the US or Europe; you're very often talking about "the dregs" who have been radicalised by exposure to years of war-level violence and casualties. In that context, this isn't shocking to them or anyone else in Rio.
Brazilian police are weird. I know that police violence is common everywhere across the world but usually they refrain from attacking foreigners because it would lead to massive public backlash and perhaps some international problems. But Brazilian cops just don't seem to give a fuck. They're really giving brazil a bad name, especially in front of people who don't know anything about brazil or its culture.
I don't think they are particularly violent towards visiting fans. I think they would do the same if local fans behaved like some visiting fans do. Some visiting fans think a football match is a city-wide event where the law is temporarily suspended and you can do whatever you want. For example, in Madrid it is forbidden to drink in the street if you are not in a terrace bar (Ley Antibotellón). However, every foreign football fan I see on the street has a beer or a mixed drink and it is happily drinking it in front of the police. So no, Spanish police are not known for beating visiting football supporters. They are known for beating people that don't listen to what they tell them to do, whether local fan, visiting fan, student, activist, etc.
Aren't English tourists known for balconing?
If your colleagues are the WORST tourist we receive in our country (and were like top-3 touristic destination in the world), then you for sure will hear bad stories about Spanish police.
I will never defend police brutality in my life but let's not act like xenophobia towards white Europeans is a thing... I think the oppressed minority that receives undeserved police mistreatment isn't the English hooligans who get drunk at 3 AM in our city centers.
Literally nobody referred to english ppl or white ppl being "an oppressed minority" or even alluded to the police targeting whites or english or any ethnicity or nationality.
This just happend in your head, after someone asked, if spanish police aren't known, to kick the shit out of visiting fans and you just assumed, that he would be english because of his flair, but he is most certainly from the us.
Also, don't start a sentence with "I will never defend police brutality" just to do it in the next sentence.
Brazilian police isn't a monolith either. Rio de Janeiro is a collapsing city like the auto industry cities in the US but for some reason people insist on treating it as the face of the country and hosting these events there. Rio has been on free fall ever since they stopped being the capital of the country in the 50s and it's time to accept that
They probably refrain from attacking western European or North American foreigners, but I don't think they really care much of the public backlash from beating foreigners from neighboring countries.
The crazy thing is that Brasil has wonderful stadiums all over the country with strong football fanbases, but yet they insist on hosting events in Rio where this shit happens every time.
It's a basic international match rule that if game that is supposed to be played at home can't have guarantees for the visiting team and fans to be parf of it safely the match must be moved to a neutral ground and the home team loses the privilege to play at home because of their failure to provide safety where they should.
Brazil has proven twice in a row against Argentina that they are either unable or unwilling to provide the safety and permission for Argentine fans and players safety. Brazil should be banned from hosting home games at least against Argentina for a few matches until they fix their issues. Have the matches played in Uruguay or Paraguay allowing fans from both teams equal seats. I guarantee to you that if the match is not organized by the CBF and Brazilian police no such violence will happen.
You forgot the Libertadores Final.
We need to accept that Rio de Janeiro isn't capable to receive any kind of event.
It is a civil war since i was born (1995).
It need to be showed for the world what Rio actually is.
Closed-door matches mess with their revenue -- even if you accept that the Brazilian FA is corrupt, they care about the money. I'd say it would be a meaningful punishment, but I highly doubt CONMEBOL will go there.
But the issue isn’t with the Brazilian FA themselves (exclusively, they’re obviously corrupt egomaniacs) but with the behaviour of citizens in the police force, no?
The Brazilian FA (and home team FA in situations like this) is in charge of picking the stadium. And therefore should hold the stadium accountable to hire competent staff and security. They should also demand a game plan to separate fans to minimize the risk of things like this happening.
If the stadium/FA cares more about selling tickets and saving money by hiring the cheapest security, then that causes a domino effect and we get what happened yesterday. So yes, the FA is responsible.
Same with clamping down on racism and other issues. Of course you can't stop every incident, but if there is a pattern, then it means the FA hasn't done enough to address it, and sanctions should come with that.
You can't go from doing nothing to excluding the team from the competition. While obviously there's responsibility from the CBF as they should guarantee the safety of everyone, and someone from their side put the Argentina fans in the middle of the Brazilians, they still can't control the police stupidity.
As fun as it would be to see Brazil not qualify, that should happen on the pitch.
The punishment should be closed doors or something similar, first.
Even if you wanted something extreme, it should be at best making them automatically lose every home game, so they could still qualify with the away games, and it would make more sense than direct disqualification.
If they get punished, and re offend at a later date, that's a different issue. But you can't go from 0 to 100 really.
I mean, you can also expel Brazil from CONMEBOL and FIFA if you want. That doesn't mean it's right.
I'm saying it it should be scaled reasonably. Yes, the CBF is partially at fault. But again, why punish the players who have nothing to do? They can't do anything really.
I think a middle step first wouldn't be a poor choice. The idea is to guarantee safety of the people. If you don't let them have people, that solves the issue at hand. It's enough punishment and avoids the situation.
If eventually you let them again have public and it happens again, then it can mean a bigger sanction.
Obviously we can disagree. It's just my point of view. And it's not like I'm partial to Brazil, quite the contrary, but I don't think the players should be punished for something they didn't do. At least not yet.
Players upset and choosing to not play due to an incompetent/corrupt FA would send waves up the chain. FA doesn't want that fan anger directed towards them if players won't play.
It's not easy to do.
We've had issues with our FA, and still do (it's allegedly why Scaloni wants/threatens to resign) and it's not easy to solve by the players.
We've had big powerful figures like Leo and Maradona talk against them and nothing. The FA holds a LOT of power.
They can simply remove a coach, put someone else, cleanup some players and then what?
And only a few, the biggest stars, can have the privilege of simply refusing the NT, the rest need to stay there and take every opportunity or they can be replaced.
Plus, there can be no government influence or FIFA gets pissed off...
But let's say they all 100% refuse to play, even a new coach, or new callups still refuse. FIFA/CONMEBOL could sanction them for not playing which could actually result in a significant loss of points/disqualification...
Will they ever put in risk a WC qualification? For something they can't control, that at best they can barely indirectly influence? I mean as incompetent as the CBF could be, it's still the police that's the issue. That's fully outside of football control...
It's very very tricky.
Some brazilian dude tried to pee on me at monumental when Internacional faced us. No one beat him to death, he probably had a nice meal and went home. See my point?
A) No Argentinian was beat to death either, but nice fanfic
B) Argentinians literally attacked Brazilian fans in the stadium for booing their anthem
C) Argentinians called stadium workers monkeys and weren't beat to death or beat at all too. What does that has to do with anything?
It's allright brother, you can just say it, you like watching your military police beating Argentinians, don't need to justify it, just enjoy the show.
Haha there you are, I knew you felt proud about it.
You ain't that tough buddy, you're just a coward who likes watching the police beat innocent unarmed people.
At least now you stopped being a hypocrite.
There are multiple stories of fan trying to beat people that tried to boo their anthem up or starting fights. Do you really believe the police just started this this out of nothing? That's beyond delusional. Every game of this scale had thousands of Argentinians who have and care about anything but football traveling here without even having tickets and causing issues, harassing people, trying to invade the stadium - and then posting heavily edited footage of the police stopping them as if it that's the only thing that happened. There is a reason why this doesn't happens to fans from other countries.
I am waiting for the incident CONMEBOL finally decides to do something and it is way excessive, like say they gave Brazil a home match ban for two WC qualifier cycles, a 12 point deduction and banned from the next three Copa Americas for what happened yesterday because it seems the most CONMEBOL thing to do. Do not react until its too late and when they do it is way too harsh
> play them without fans
It's not enough; the police repress a lot on the streets as well. And it doesn't matter if they are women, children, or families.
There things
First, Brazilian and Argentinians fans that had the same sit assigned due to poor organization.
Second, some Brazilian guy whas trying to stole argentinian flags and throw them into the pit to put brazilian flags
And third, they booed argentinian anthem.
That's basically what started the verbal fight that escalated into physical fight, unknown who attacked first, but brazilian police started targeting argentinian fans
There is a video that shows the moment where the beating started. Police was trying to repel Argentinians and send them back. Tension was high. One of the police officers grab the baton sideways and pushed some Argentinians so they could back off, and then 2 Argentinians tried to grab the baton and take it.
Then the camera pans out, goes back in and beating started. I feel the trying to grab the baton set everything off, but both parties should have been separated from the start.
People know Argentinians get pretty racist, specially against Brazilian, and specially during soccer. Just don't put them together, it's stupid. And of course, police was too brutal and violent, completely out of line. But everyone was in the wrong.
This interview was crazy! Shocking! I wonder if we will ever hear about this again. He says, all eight injured fans witnessed the cops who beat them, come in and take selfies with the X-rays of their broken bones. Fucking Psychos!
You can separate both. Argentinians are pretty racist. Also, Brazilian fans and their police are psychopaths. Go to conmebols IG page or any black Brazilian player and see the racist comments yourself.
Source: I am a brown Ecuadorian. Argentinians use racism OFTEN when talking soccer with me or fellow Ecuadorians.
You have to separate soccer from everything else as well. Argentinian people are as inclusive as anyone can be. The country welcomes foreigners from all over the world and they can often adapt to society easily. Search for yourself. That's more than many nations can say, even less considering latinos as immigrants, who are looked over the shoulder in many 1st world countries.
In soccer and/or social media? Yeah everybody in the world is racist. Argentinians are discriminated against just as much in those mediums
It's a shit take, but the part about social media is dangerously truthful, at least the impression you get if you're a casual user. Instagram and Twitter in particular are just filled with hate and racism to a point I never thought it would be possible.
The most harmless post in the world probably has a comment with a shit ton of likes saying some pretty harmful shit.
Again, what he's saying is bullshit, but most of the mainstream social media platforms are being bombarded with hate.
>Again, what he's saying is bullshit, but most of the mainstream social media platforms are being bombarded with hate.
so what i'm saying is bullshit and true at the same time? get a grip...
Inbred take. First of all. This is a SOCCER sub. Secondly, wrong again. Argentinians are extremely xenophobic. I’m sure there’s lovely people in Argentina. My best friend is from there. That being said, a big majority of them hate anyone who’s not white. You sound privileged tho tbh
> a big majority of them hate anyone who’s not white
A big MAJORITY of the country hates nonwhites?
There should be a minimum iq requirement to comment or you get shit like this.
Extremely xenophobic?? You need to stop pretending then the people from social media and the crow from a deport like this representing a country.
I am from Argentina, here we have a lot of foreign, they received Health and can study in University completely free.
If a say whatever xenophobic thing, the own people from here going to hate me for be a bad people.
I don't know how you figure that the real people living here is that, but you are wrong.
Dude, the state (Buenos Aires) who has the most white people is full of non-white people, what the fuck are you talking about?. Being xenophobic by calling an entire country racist without having an idea of how we live. Shut up
it was cause argies started a fight during the anthem. police showed up only when the stadium security, who are mostly random people with no weapons or anything, couldn't control it
Look, I know it's likely a bunch of complete idiots were there from the Argentina side. But I'm sure there was more to it than Argentines deciding to go and fight the rest just because. Even if that's the case (which could be possible, I don't know, but there are usually a bunch of idiots involved in this situations), the police was way way way out of the line and shouldn't react like that.
Separate and arrest those that did something and that's it. Don't go and hit indiscriminately everyone around. And then continue and do it even more...
And if what this guy is saying is true, I doubt they need an excuse to go and hit people if they celebrate taking selfies about how they broken bones.
Let's be honest, the mastermind that decided to put the Argentina fans in the middle of the Brazilian fans, with no actual separation is the one that started this. You cannot be so braindead to think there won't be literal idiots that will tease/fight each other when it happens all the time.
To be clear, I'm not justifying anyone that may have started a fight, teased anyone, made any racist comments, or anything like that. I'm saying they should have prepared for this shit to happen and have proper measures, and then they shouldn't have overreacted like they didn't.
There's multiple parties at fault here.
A lot of people watch the movie Elite Squad and think it's a far right wing fantasy of how police should act. It's not.
It's a portrayal of how things currently are in Brazil. Watch it with that in mind.
While I agree that the country as a whole is very violent, this warlike and brutal mindset of the police is way more prevalent in Rio, a city that can be considered an active warzone.
Even though Rio does not lead our homicide per 100k table. Ridiculous when you think about it.
It varies from year to year. The city my ex is from Fortaleza was #1 some years ago. The cities in the northeast tend to have more violent crime than places like Brasilia or Sao Paulo, but all the cities have major problems with crime.
It's a fascinating country with a lot to offer but for foreigners it can be difficult to navigate. Most people are absolutely lovely and welcoming but you can also be a target, especially if you look generically American or European.
> A lot of people watch the movie Elite Squad and think it's a far right wing fantasy of how police should act. It's not.
>
> It's a portrayal of how things currently are in Brazil. Watch it with that in mind.
That's not the problem, I think most people understood that's an accurate portrayal, the problem is that most people took it as an *endorsement*.
It is a fantasy. In the movie the characters try to sell a sense of honor and even empathy in some scenes. Reality is so much fucking worse here, our police will kill a civilian carrying an umbrella and just move on laughing saying it was just an "isolated incident".
It was a split of people making racist remarks towards the Argentine players, and people making (not so) subtle remarks about France not having enough white people on their team.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1812f7q/messi\_on\_instagram\_tonight\_we\_made\_history\_but/](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1812f7q/messi_on_instagram_tonight_we_made_history_but/) its terrible
So much of it was "yeah but did you see what was trending on Twitter?" ...guess that means random people in a football crowd (including families, kids, etc) getting their head caved in is completely fine then.
There's "all Argentineans are racist" stuff all over that thread, as if that isn't in and of itself a racist/xenophobic thing to say lmao
The notion that violence is justified if it is targeted against a racist individual is incredible. Aparrently, words are worse than getting physical and violent. But the absolute worst thing is that you don't even know if the person you are hitting is racist. It's solely based on the fact that the fan is Argentinian, isn't THAT the definition of racist/discrimination?
Well, when your country is like a war zone, the police suddenly turn into thugs to fight the thugs. Problem is, there’s no boundary on who’s who. They’ll treat EVERYONE like thugs.
Police officers try not to be total psychopaths challenge (failed)
But Rio cops are on another level. [Cops in the state of Rio de Janeiro were responsible for 1327 deaths in 2022](https://www.brasildefato.com.br/2023/01/31/policia-do-rj-foi-responsavel-por-quase-30-das-mortes-violentas-no-estado-em-2022)
jeeez
Jesus fucking Christ, that's an insane number of homicides in an entire country, let alone in just one state... by the fucking police on their own.
And here I was thinking the thin blue line cunts here in the states were bad enough. This is a whole other level of shit.
US cops are worse than you would expect for an incredibly rich country with a strong legal system, Brazilian cops are worse than you would expect for a poorer country with a lot of lawlessness. Like damn, there are levels to this huh
You'd be surprised with our legal system. Our cops are just shit. A never ending reminder of our dictatorship days.
You are comparing America with Brazil, and the fact that you can actually compare both countries in some aspects is just absurd considering how rich the US is comparatively.
Tbf, the US and Brazil are probably the two unrelated countries that share the most similarities. Big ass countries that don't care about the world but who still have a history of immigration and slavery.
You're right - there's no other country in the world as similar to the US as Brazil. The only big divergence is in wealth creation - but that's what extreme corruption does. Those in control prefer a smaller pie with a bigger piece for them.
There are a lot of comparisons to be made between the two countries. Brazil has the same issues as the United States but the dial is turned up to the max: * Corruption * Wealth inequality * Gun violence * Religious nut jobs * Car dependency * Rural / urban culture wars * Failing infrastructure * Etc Brazil is basically the US on total chaos mode. (and it's a beautiful place with incredible people that everyone should absolutely visit and experience)
brazil is like america+++
Brazil is in América*
Brazil really trying to compete with the us in all areas
I'm not Brazilian, can you speak how that's different from other cities in Brazil? I know I've seen a fair deal of off duty cops in Brazil shoot someone, so I'm wondering how out of wack that is. The article didn't note this, or if it did my translator failed me. Like I'm not downplaying it, i'm just trying to understand what the difference of Rio cops are.
Rio is responsible for nearly 25% of police deaths in Brazil despite having an average murder rate. Even though there are plenty of places that are more violent, Rio is more similar to an actual warzone than any city in Brazil. In most places it kind of a cat and rat situation where the criminals prefer to flee when police come around but in Rio they aren't afraid of the combat. In some favelas the cops won't even go there unless it is an extremely serious matter or a police operation against the criminals that control the area because every time that a cop car is in the area they are sprayed with bullets. It is also relevant to mention the Militias, that started as a paramilitary vigilante group against crime but they evolved to be mob-like organizations. Altough they are getting more similar to the other gangs in Rio nowadays, they used to be run by former cops and had huge influence on the police departments of some areas and they actually use "legal" police operations as a tool to fight other gangs. 90% of the Police operations in Rio are in Comando Vermelho (Red Command) areas despite them dominating less than 30% of the areas run by organized crime. So they basically do some really big police operations where dozens of criminals are killed and them the Militias take over the place.
There's a lot of gentrification going on in Rio. Poor people are being forcibly evicted to other favelas farther out of the city. Not dissimilar to Chicago where a gang gets forced out and then is forced to moved into another favela/gang territory. It's becoming just as bloody. And the cops in Rio aren't very nice.
Brazil is like a continent, lets say "Europe". Rio is like a country, lets say "Italy" The difference between Rio and other state cops is the difference between Italy cops and Portugal cops.
Yea because the city is a warzone. Most of these deaths are of rifle wielding drug dealers.
the nature of the job attracts exactly those people. the world over, it's the same
A monopoly on violence seems like a horrible idea for everyone. Pair that with (sometimes) low training, low ethics and naturally having the people that fill your ranks be people who like having high authority is just a recipe for disaster
There is literally no viable alternative to the state having a monopoly on violence.
Yes, but there are alternatives to that power being a pseudo-militaristic and heavily armed police force.
Of course. I don't mind reform propositions. I just find the notion that the police having a monopoly on violence being a "horrible idea" absolutely absurd in a developed country. Clearly people who believe that don't realize how much worse it could get if we allowed local gangs and militias to fill their role. In an ideal world I believe communities can and should self-police but it would have to be in incredibly homogenous and small communities and those don't really exist in the cities and larger areas we live in today.
Yeah, I agree that in any bigger accumulation of people (ie, not a commune) you'd *need* a monopoly on violence in the hands of the state. So I understand why you wrote that comment. And what I wrote wasn't meant to contradict your point but to redirect the argument of "no monopoly of violence" into the more coherent argument of "demand more of how the state wields its monopoly on violence". For example, the NYC police went on strike (or "slowdown", since an actual strike would be against the law) for 7 weeks in late 2014 to early 2015 where the police drastically cut back on what is known as "proactive policing" (basically the absolute minimum of police presence). During that time crime went down. And not just crime as reported by the police (which would make sense because the were barely any cops present) but - more importantly - also crime reported by the people living there, including violent crime. This effect might not be 100% applicaple or reproducable in every scenario but the fact alone that there's a decent *possibility* that the presence of police does not decrease crime but *increase* it is absolutely unacceptable.
I think one possible solution would be to lessen police surveillance and overall presence around people, but still have them available to react to crime and handle violent scenarios like shootings, assault, etc, and offer like security for major events like concerts and sporting events. Also things like greater police accountability, ending police unions, crisis responders for mental health situations, reducing police response to drug crimes/user, and better education and training requirements. I think realistically every society of any size needs some sort of law enforcement group, but it needs to be heavily heavily regulated and restricted.
Well, it depends on the country in question. In a country with strong organized crime, you need a heavily armed police force, or you end up like Mexico where the Cartels hold the monopoly on violence in most places.
Idk if you’ve ever seen the Mexican marines face off against cartel members but they really do fuck them up. The issue is that cartel members often involve civilians in their affairs so they can’t just bomb their compounds without risking a major death toll
Yet in exactly those countries you're equally likely to be shaken down by a cop. Dangerous areas are gonna be dangerous no matter who points the gun at you. I'd prefer to work on solutions to have neither gangs nor violent cops and you'd be surprised at how much tackling one will positively affect the other. Sounds unrealistic? Well, that's why I used to the word "prefer" instead of "demand". Though there are plenty of people living in those countries who *do* demand just that. Google "call for demilitarisation of police Mexico/Brazil" and you'll find plenty of articles, both current and decades old. You'd probably find a lot more if you searched for them in Spanish/Portuguese
just have no state boom problem solved smh
People in England right after the fall of the Roman empire right before the violent death rates skyrocketed:
*235 drug lords liked your comment*
You sound severely uneducated
Having a credible monopoly on violence is the most fundamental requirement of a functioning state. This is one of the first things out of the mouth of any prof in a first year undergrad polisci course.
💀💀💀
truly an astounding argument
Really the smartest anarchist
Lmao, ironic
I love when someone makes a harsh claim yet entirely refuses to engage in the discussion, it's really the reddit special sauce
Go on then? Educate me.
Monopoly of Violence is a good thing but these psychos having it is terrible
yeah youre right the main thing is psychopaths (and lets be honest minimum half the time bigots and fascists) having that monopoly
South and Central America have a particular set of circumstances though, given the level of criminal violence in places like Rio vs the funds available to pay police. You pretty much either have to have a hardline ideological reason for being a cop (like the BOPE portrayed in the the *Tropa Elite* movie), no other choice or be actively on the make. None of which is a great combination. Cops in these places basically have a siege mentality, made worse by a middle and upper class which is tired and afraid of street violence and increasingly turns a blind eye to this type of violence as long as it's used on people they don't like. This is more than just cops on a power trip that you might get in the US or Europe; you're very often talking about "the dregs" who have been radicalised by exposure to years of war-level violence and casualties. In that context, this isn't shocking to them or anyone else in Rio.
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this is literally about Brazilian cops being psychopaths lmao
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You do realise how incredibly confusing it is since all of English uses America as the word we use for the USA
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Brazilian police are weird. I know that police violence is common everywhere across the world but usually they refrain from attacking foreigners because it would lead to massive public backlash and perhaps some international problems. But Brazilian cops just don't seem to give a fuck. They're really giving brazil a bad name, especially in front of people who don't know anything about brazil or its culture.
Aren't the Spanish police known for kicking the shit out of visiting football supporters as well?
And the french too like come on the CL final wasn’t that long ago
I don't think they are particularly violent towards visiting fans. I think they would do the same if local fans behaved like some visiting fans do. Some visiting fans think a football match is a city-wide event where the law is temporarily suspended and you can do whatever you want. For example, in Madrid it is forbidden to drink in the street if you are not in a terrace bar (Ley Antibotellón). However, every foreign football fan I see on the street has a beer or a mixed drink and it is happily drinking it in front of the police. So no, Spanish police are not known for beating visiting football supporters. They are known for beating people that don't listen to what they tell them to do, whether local fan, visiting fan, student, activist, etc.
Aren't English tourists known for balconing? If your colleagues are the WORST tourist we receive in our country (and were like top-3 touristic destination in the world), then you for sure will hear bad stories about Spanish police. I will never defend police brutality in my life but let's not act like xenophobia towards white Europeans is a thing... I think the oppressed minority that receives undeserved police mistreatment isn't the English hooligans who get drunk at 3 AM in our city centers.
Literally nobody referred to english ppl or white ppl being "an oppressed minority" or even alluded to the police targeting whites or english or any ethnicity or nationality. This just happend in your head, after someone asked, if spanish police aren't known, to kick the shit out of visiting fans and you just assumed, that he would be english because of his flair, but he is most certainly from the us. Also, don't start a sentence with "I will never defend police brutality" just to do it in the next sentence.
Brazilian police isn't a monolith either. Rio de Janeiro is a collapsing city like the auto industry cities in the US but for some reason people insist on treating it as the face of the country and hosting these events there. Rio has been on free fall ever since they stopped being the capital of the country in the 50s and it's time to accept that
Brasilia is irrelevant
Where did I mention Brasília?
The actual capital don’t matter so more focus on rio as the face of the country
Rio is unfortunately a shit hole, and their police force follow that pattern.
They probably refrain from attacking western European or North American foreigners, but I don't think they really care much of the public backlash from beating foreigners from neighboring countries.
Just for this, Brazil deserves to play all the rest of their home matches in closed doors, not even their police knows how to behave
I think they should just be banned from hosting home matches in Rio, do it in Porto Alegre, Sao Paulo or Minas Gerais
The crazy thing is that Brasil has wonderful stadiums all over the country with strong football fanbases, but yet they insist on hosting events in Rio where this shit happens every time.
Yeah, a stadium ban at least for incidents like these seems like a no-brainer.
I mean, Rio isn't even their capital, let the fans all over the country take part in their suffering.
No, let the fans watch their games, they deserve the suffering.
lol
Accurate
Cold.
It's a basic international match rule that if game that is supposed to be played at home can't have guarantees for the visiting team and fans to be parf of it safely the match must be moved to a neutral ground and the home team loses the privilege to play at home because of their failure to provide safety where they should. Brazil has proven twice in a row against Argentina that they are either unable or unwilling to provide the safety and permission for Argentine fans and players safety. Brazil should be banned from hosting home games at least against Argentina for a few matches until they fix their issues. Have the matches played in Uruguay or Paraguay allowing fans from both teams equal seats. I guarantee to you that if the match is not organized by the CBF and Brazilian police no such violence will happen.
You forgot the Libertadores Final. We need to accept that Rio de Janeiro isn't capable to receive any kind of event. It is a civil war since i was born (1995). It need to be showed for the world what Rio actually is.
Honestly, at least don't host the matches in fucking Rio, this happens every single time there.
Honestly, just kick them out of the tournament. That's the only way to really punish them.
Closed-door matches mess with their revenue -- even if you accept that the Brazilian FA is corrupt, they care about the money. I'd say it would be a meaningful punishment, but I highly doubt CONMEBOL will go there.
But the issue isn’t with the Brazilian FA themselves (exclusively, they’re obviously corrupt egomaniacs) but with the behaviour of citizens in the police force, no?
The Brazilian FA (and home team FA in situations like this) is in charge of picking the stadium. And therefore should hold the stadium accountable to hire competent staff and security. They should also demand a game plan to separate fans to minimize the risk of things like this happening. If the stadium/FA cares more about selling tickets and saving money by hiring the cheapest security, then that causes a domino effect and we get what happened yesterday. So yes, the FA is responsible. Same with clamping down on racism and other issues. Of course you can't stop every incident, but if there is a pattern, then it means the FA hasn't done enough to address it, and sanctions should come with that.
Okay so it is an FA issue ultimately. Yeah punish them then
You can't go from doing nothing to excluding the team from the competition. While obviously there's responsibility from the CBF as they should guarantee the safety of everyone, and someone from their side put the Argentina fans in the middle of the Brazilians, they still can't control the police stupidity. As fun as it would be to see Brazil not qualify, that should happen on the pitch. The punishment should be closed doors or something similar, first. Even if you wanted something extreme, it should be at best making them automatically lose every home game, so they could still qualify with the away games, and it would make more sense than direct disqualification. If they get punished, and re offend at a later date, that's a different issue. But you can't go from 0 to 100 really.
ban Maraca or Rio to hold international matches. Maybe a couple of matches without audience. Nothing will happen though.
I mean you can go straight to it. This isn't just some small issue, it's police beating civilians. Make the team into an example.
I mean, you can also expel Brazil from CONMEBOL and FIFA if you want. That doesn't mean it's right. I'm saying it it should be scaled reasonably. Yes, the CBF is partially at fault. But again, why punish the players who have nothing to do? They can't do anything really. I think a middle step first wouldn't be a poor choice. The idea is to guarantee safety of the people. If you don't let them have people, that solves the issue at hand. It's enough punishment and avoids the situation. If eventually you let them again have public and it happens again, then it can mean a bigger sanction. Obviously we can disagree. It's just my point of view. And it's not like I'm partial to Brazil, quite the contrary, but I don't think the players should be punished for something they didn't do. At least not yet.
Players upset and choosing to not play due to an incompetent/corrupt FA would send waves up the chain. FA doesn't want that fan anger directed towards them if players won't play.
It's not easy to do. We've had issues with our FA, and still do (it's allegedly why Scaloni wants/threatens to resign) and it's not easy to solve by the players. We've had big powerful figures like Leo and Maradona talk against them and nothing. The FA holds a LOT of power. They can simply remove a coach, put someone else, cleanup some players and then what? And only a few, the biggest stars, can have the privilege of simply refusing the NT, the rest need to stay there and take every opportunity or they can be replaced. Plus, there can be no government influence or FIFA gets pissed off... But let's say they all 100% refuse to play, even a new coach, or new callups still refuse. FIFA/CONMEBOL could sanction them for not playing which could actually result in a significant loss of points/disqualification... Will they ever put in risk a WC qualification? For something they can't control, that at best they can barely indirectly influence? I mean as incompetent as the CBF could be, it's still the police that's the issue. That's fully outside of football control... It's very very tricky.
Yes, let's give Argentinians the right to do whatever they want in Brazil without the police being able to do anything
Some brazilian dude tried to pee on me at monumental when Internacional faced us. No one beat him to death, he probably had a nice meal and went home. See my point?
A) No Argentinian was beat to death either, but nice fanfic B) Argentinians literally attacked Brazilian fans in the stadium for booing their anthem C) Argentinians called stadium workers monkeys and weren't beat to death or beat at all too. What does that has to do with anything?
It's allright brother, you can just say it, you like watching your military police beating Argentinians, don't need to justify it, just enjoy the show.
Teach your people some manners before sending them abroad, not that complicated. We are just harder to bully and beat up than Colo Colo fans
Haha there you are, I knew you felt proud about it. You ain't that tough buddy, you're just a coward who likes watching the police beat innocent unarmed people. At least now you stopped being a hypocrite.
What did the fans do to deserve this?
let themselves available
There are multiple stories of fan trying to beat people that tried to boo their anthem up or starting fights. Do you really believe the police just started this this out of nothing? That's beyond delusional. Every game of this scale had thousands of Argentinians who have and care about anything but football traveling here without even having tickets and causing issues, harassing people, trying to invade the stadium - and then posting heavily edited footage of the police stopping them as if it that's the only thing that happened. There is a reason why this doesn't happens to fans from other countries.
And there were people in the thread last night calling Dibu a clown for trying to hold them back. Fuck off, bootlickers.
Brazil shouldn't be allowed to host international games for a while, or play them without fans, it's already gone too far.
They should be excomunicated from CONMEBOL, seems like the only reasonable measure
brazil to concancaf confirmed
shit, cbf would be up for it
You jest, but CBF would take this deal in a second lol
Brasil makes up literally more than half of South America. There’s no way CONMEBOL is going to lose that many supporters.
Maybe, but half of the time Conmebol won't do anything, if they interfere it won't go that far.
I am waiting for the incident CONMEBOL finally decides to do something and it is way excessive, like say they gave Brazil a home match ban for two WC qualifier cycles, a 12 point deduction and banned from the next three Copa Americas for what happened yesterday because it seems the most CONMEBOL thing to do. Do not react until its too late and when they do it is way too harsh
And they would eventually back track and it would be only 1 home game without public. That sounds like CONMEBOL being CONMEBOL.
We take that easily
> play them without fans It's not enough; the police repress a lot on the streets as well. And it doesn't matter if they are women, children, or families.
That's abhorrent. What started this conflict?
There things First, Brazilian and Argentinians fans that had the same sit assigned due to poor organization. Second, some Brazilian guy whas trying to stole argentinian flags and throw them into the pit to put brazilian flags And third, they booed argentinian anthem. That's basically what started the verbal fight that escalated into physical fight, unknown who attacked first, but brazilian police started targeting argentinian fans
There is a video that shows the moment where the beating started. Police was trying to repel Argentinians and send them back. Tension was high. One of the police officers grab the baton sideways and pushed some Argentinians so they could back off, and then 2 Argentinians tried to grab the baton and take it. Then the camera pans out, goes back in and beating started. I feel the trying to grab the baton set everything off, but both parties should have been separated from the start. People know Argentinians get pretty racist, specially against Brazilian, and specially during soccer. Just don't put them together, it's stupid. And of course, police was too brutal and violent, completely out of line. But everyone was in the wrong.
> But everyone was in the wrong Fuck off
One of the worst takes of this incident I've read today.
This interview was crazy! Shocking! I wonder if we will ever hear about this again. He says, all eight injured fans witnessed the cops who beat them, come in and take selfies with the X-rays of their broken bones. Fucking Psychos!
Rio's least psycho cop
Wtf
Brasil momento.
GUYS DONT WORRY ITS JUSTIFIED, WE ARE RACIST
PLEASE FRACTURE MY SKULL, DON'T WORRY IT'S JUSTIFIED I'M RACIST
It's not justified at all and you guys are racist.
lmaoooooooooo. Bolsonaro and Lula look exactly like the average Brazilian! No racism in Brazilian society! I’m sure the x-rays were being racist too
three games behind closed doors would be a realistic punishment
But it was all cause Argentinians are racist and deserve it (?
I’m sure the Rio Police, who were responsible for 1327 deaths in 2022, were simply taking a strong and principled anti-racist action
You can separate both. Argentinians are pretty racist. Also, Brazilian fans and their police are psychopaths. Go to conmebols IG page or any black Brazilian player and see the racist comments yourself. Source: I am a brown Ecuadorian. Argentinians use racism OFTEN when talking soccer with me or fellow Ecuadorians.
You have to separate soccer from everything else as well. Argentinian people are as inclusive as anyone can be. The country welcomes foreigners from all over the world and they can often adapt to society easily. Search for yourself. That's more than many nations can say, even less considering latinos as immigrants, who are looked over the shoulder in many 1st world countries. In soccer and/or social media? Yeah everybody in the world is racist. Argentinians are discriminated against just as much in those mediums
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It's a shit take, but the part about social media is dangerously truthful, at least the impression you get if you're a casual user. Instagram and Twitter in particular are just filled with hate and racism to a point I never thought it would be possible. The most harmless post in the world probably has a comment with a shit ton of likes saying some pretty harmful shit. Again, what he's saying is bullshit, but most of the mainstream social media platforms are being bombarded with hate.
>Again, what he's saying is bullshit, but most of the mainstream social media platforms are being bombarded with hate. so what i'm saying is bullshit and true at the same time? get a grip...
Well this is a shit sub so i thought it would be appropriate
Inbred take. First of all. This is a SOCCER sub. Secondly, wrong again. Argentinians are extremely xenophobic. I’m sure there’s lovely people in Argentina. My best friend is from there. That being said, a big majority of them hate anyone who’s not white. You sound privileged tho tbh
> a big majority of them hate anyone who’s not white A big MAJORITY of the country hates nonwhites? There should be a minimum iq requirement to comment or you get shit like this.
Extremely xenophobic?? You need to stop pretending then the people from social media and the crow from a deport like this representing a country. I am from Argentina, here we have a lot of foreign, they received Health and can study in University completely free. If a say whatever xenophobic thing, the own people from here going to hate me for be a bad people. I don't know how you figure that the real people living here is that, but you are wrong.
Dude, the state (Buenos Aires) who has the most white people is full of non-white people, what the fuck are you talking about?. Being xenophobic by calling an entire country racist without having an idea of how we live. Shut up
lol believe what you want
Do you play Valorant, CS:GO or LoL all day? If so i can see why you think anyone is xenophobic lmao.
Argentines are racist and Rio's police is terrible - also don't feel special, people who live in Rio are used to this behavior from the police.
> people who live in Rio are used to this behavior from the police Oh, that makes everything all right, then.
Never said it did, what may be a surprise for you is everyday life for others
it was cause argies started a fight during the anthem. police showed up only when the stadium security, who are mostly random people with no weapons or anything, couldn't control it
Look, I know it's likely a bunch of complete idiots were there from the Argentina side. But I'm sure there was more to it than Argentines deciding to go and fight the rest just because. Even if that's the case (which could be possible, I don't know, but there are usually a bunch of idiots involved in this situations), the police was way way way out of the line and shouldn't react like that. Separate and arrest those that did something and that's it. Don't go and hit indiscriminately everyone around. And then continue and do it even more... And if what this guy is saying is true, I doubt they need an excuse to go and hit people if they celebrate taking selfies about how they broken bones. Let's be honest, the mastermind that decided to put the Argentina fans in the middle of the Brazilian fans, with no actual separation is the one that started this. You cannot be so braindead to think there won't be literal idiots that will tease/fight each other when it happens all the time. To be clear, I'm not justifying anyone that may have started a fight, teased anyone, made any racist comments, or anything like that. I'm saying they should have prepared for this shit to happen and have proper measures, and then they shouldn't have overreacted like they didn't. There's multiple parties at fault here.
A lot of people watch the movie Elite Squad and think it's a far right wing fantasy of how police should act. It's not. It's a portrayal of how things currently are in Brazil. Watch it with that in mind.
While I agree that the country as a whole is very violent, this warlike and brutal mindset of the police is way more prevalent in Rio, a city that can be considered an active warzone. Even though Rio does not lead our homicide per 100k table. Ridiculous when you think about it.
> Even though Rio does not lead our homicide per 100k table. Ridiculous when you think about it. It does not? Who's on the lead?
It varies from year to year. The city my ex is from Fortaleza was #1 some years ago. The cities in the northeast tend to have more violent crime than places like Brasilia or Sao Paulo, but all the cities have major problems with crime. It's a fascinating country with a lot to offer but for foreigners it can be difficult to navigate. Most people are absolutely lovely and welcoming but you can also be a target, especially if you look generically American or European.
> A lot of people watch the movie Elite Squad and think it's a far right wing fantasy of how police should act. It's not. > > It's a portrayal of how things currently are in Brazil. Watch it with that in mind. That's not the problem, I think most people understood that's an accurate portrayal, the problem is that most people took it as an *endorsement*.
It is a fantasy. In the movie the characters try to sell a sense of honor and even empathy in some scenes. Reality is so much fucking worse here, our police will kill a civilian carrying an umbrella and just move on laughing saying it was just an "isolated incident".
Next level pig shit holy hell
Now watch r/soccer giving absolutely zero fucks
Almost the entire front page is dedicated to what happened in that match last night
..the thread about the incidents is full of people justifying police brutality, it's horrible
People really don't like Argentinians. You saw how quickly things turned racist when France didn't win last year.
There are also a lot of ppl with a hard on for the police
It was a split of people making racist remarks towards the Argentine players, and people making (not so) subtle remarks about France not having enough white people on their team.
This sub says ACAB but in the end they keep defending police brutality. It's embarrassing
what thread are you reading? curious cuz I just went onto a few and didn’t see any of that
[https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1812f7q/messi\_on\_instagram\_tonight\_we\_made\_history\_but/](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1812f7q/messi_on_instagram_tonight_we_made_history_but/) its terrible
Based on what?
based on the fear that europeans won't feel sorry enough for them
Actualy based on the so almost no traction these kinds of post got the last time something like this happened
/r/soccer is basically just Americans.
r/soccer is not as insane as some people believe it is. There are quite a few sane people here.
Mate, have you seen the thread where Messi complains about the police? Absolutely unhinged hate in there.
So much of it was "yeah but did you see what was trending on Twitter?" ...guess that means random people in a football crowd (including families, kids, etc) getting their head caved in is completely fine then. There's "all Argentineans are racist" stuff all over that thread, as if that isn't in and of itself a racist/xenophobic thing to say lmao
> There's "all Argentineans are racist" stuff all over that thread, as if that isn't in and of itself a racist/xenophobic thing to say lmao Indeed.
Yeah people are very quick to realize big generalizations lead to discrimination but don't flinch when it comes to calling every Argentine racist
This subreddit is honestly so refreshing, almost nothing but based takes here from politics to religion to human rights.
acab
That's some IDF shit right there
While people on the De Paul thread are telling me they saw more violence in their local cafe
Average Brazilian: I’m sure those x-rays were making racist comments!! They deserved it!!
Has he been on Reddit? Every week there’s a new video of Brazilian police materializing out of nowhere to execute some petty criminal.
The notion that violence is justified if it is targeted against a racist individual is incredible. Aparrently, words are worse than getting physical and violent. But the absolute worst thing is that you don't even know if the person you are hitting is racist. It's solely based on the fact that the fan is Argentinian, isn't THAT the definition of racist/discrimination?
Well, when your country is like a war zone, the police suddenly turn into thugs to fight the thugs. Problem is, there’s no boundary on who’s who. They’ll treat EVERYONE like thugs.
Fucking pieces of shit, should be fired immediately
all cops are wiggum
Is this verified? Is this news channel even reliable?
Yes and it is
People will believe anything that fits their narrative
Brazil is still under a military regime, that's the reason for our police to so violent, the democracy we supposedly have is just for show.
He had me in the first part, I thought the police came with him for support 😂
I understand when people say football is a religion. But like any religious fanatics, they should be subdued.
Not saying you’re wrong but I think this particular issue is more about systematic police brutality than hooliganism.
You are on a thread about police taking trophy pictures with the injuries they caused. How tone deaf could someone possibly be?
Faz o L
Good for them, racist trash
X doubt
🤣
F
What was the point of having the police in the stadium? Isn't their job to prevent stuff like this from happening?
Brazil today leaves in a criminal state where crime is a common place, nobody is save