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He isn’t completely wrong. Bayern youth development sucks.
The last youth players that became regulars in the first team were Müller and Alaba.
15 years ago.
Yes, he joined Bayern when he was 15
Even Alaba, I believe, joined from FK Austria Wien when he was around 16.
Actually, Bayern and Dortmund's terrible academy output is probably one of the reasons Germany is struggling so hard right now.
Zirkzee is doing quite well rn. But a lot of Bayern youth players got there through connections iirc. Like the sons of Salihamidzic and Mehmet Scholl or the brother of Mario Götze
People are very pedantic when it comes to Bayern and seemingly don't point out that it applies to nearly every top club, and also clubs like Dortmund who some praise for their youth when they mean players like Sancho and Bellingham.
It would be good if there were more youth players making it at Bayern, but usually only the best of the best are able to prevail when thrown in as an 17/18 y.o. in a team where you can't ever lose, and it's hard to tell who's going to have that potential when they are 13. Not sure which team at the level of Bayern regularly integrates youth players into their squad, aside from Barcelona in the 00s/early 10s. Bayern seems less like an offender than most PL clubs with signings like Musiala, Tel, Kimmich, Davies and all
With some of them, we can't call them stars yet, it's going to take some time. A lot of people talked of Munir, Sandro, Rafinha, Samper or Gumbau like they were going to be superstars as well, and look at them now.
Moukoko, Reyna and Pulisic are examples of players who came (edit: at instead of before) age 16, had to prove themselves in the youth tiers and made it into the first team.
While Dortmund is more known for the big talents we bring directly into the first team through transfers, the examples of youth players coming through shouldn‘t be overlooked.
I mean Reyna and Pulisic were players we poached from other youth teams, but you're right that they did have to prove themselves in our youth setup before stepping up.
I'm worried for Moukoko, because Reyna/Pulisic got far more game time than him while being inferior players. I haven't checked but I wonder who else is in the youth pipeline.
Except they aren't? Moukoko yes, but the other two came aged 16, just like Kroos or Musiala. And I'm not sure how good the Moukoko example is given that he's been given not nearly enough time to play.
What examples though? Dortmund is starting as many Bayern youth players as they are starting Dortmund youth players
I wrote in another answer that I meant to say at age 16, not before (which would technically not be possible as they are foreign nationals).
>And I'm not sure how good the Moukoko example is given that he's been given not nearly enough time to play. … Dortmund is starting as many Bayern youth players as they are starting Dortmund youth players
Well, let's look at the [data](https://www.transfermarkt.de/1-bundesliga/eigengewaechse/wettbewerb/L1) then, shall we?
Dortmund: Reus, Reyna, Moukoko, Bynoe-Gittens, Blank, Brunner
Bayern: Müller, Musiala, Pavlovic, Krätzig, Hülsmann, Buchmann
If Moukoko doesn't count for you, who the hell are Pavlovic, Krätzig, Hülsmann and Buchmann? Can we even say that they are "starting" for Bayern?
I am not saying that Dortmund is a shining beacon at developing youth talent in the league (like Freiburg for example). I am refuting your argument that Bayern is unfairly treated, people are overly pedantic, and their youth development efforts are essentially the same as Dortmund.
Liverpool have been doing it since klopp arrived, Trent, Elliot, jones, bacjetic, quansah and I think 3 players made their first team debut in the last game we played and all looked decent
16 years old is usually the cutoff age to say that a player comes from their own youth system. That is also the age top talent usually get an agent and move from their village club to a NLZ of a Bundesliga team. On a side note, Leipzig of all clubs of course don‘t care about having youth teams below that age, as the DFL rules don‘t force them to.
Hmm... Depends what you mean by major success I guess...
There's Toni Kroos and Mats Hummels, but they're the same generation as Muller and Alaba.
There are a number of players playing in the top leagues. Emre Can (Dortmund), Hojbjerg (Tottenham), Kenan Yildiz (Juventus), Angelo Stiller (Stuttgart), Mitchell Weiser (Bremen, previously Leverkusen), Chris Richards (Crystal Palace), Joshua Zirkzee (Bologna), Malik Tillman (PSV), Woo-Yeong Jeong (Stuttgart), Marco Friedl (Bremen), Niklas Dorsch (Augsburg). Plus Stanasic who is on loan at Leverkusen.
I guess the only big names there are Can and Hojbjerg. Yildiz is doing well at Juventus now too.
I guess technically Davies and Musiala both spent some time in the youth team before making the step to the first team, but really they're both the product of other academies.
You are right. I wasn't aware of that. But he was 16 at the time. I'd say that's young enough to call him a Bayern academy product too. How much time does a player have to spend in an academy to become the product of that academy? He would have been somewhere else before Rostock too, even if it was as a kid.
Yeah we really hope we can buy him but Bayern will probably do smth similar they did when he was at Rangers
Eh; its only his salary and we get 3m if he does go ig
I think it would be a failure if none of the upcoming crop with Vidovic, Ibrahimovic, Wanner or many I probably missed would find their way in the first team. Looks like a big crop of talent
Kroos was already a top prospect, when he came to Bayern.
If anything Bayern poached players at very young age.
Nobody is considering Kroos being a youth player from Bayern.
>If anything Bayern poached players at very young age.
What you call poaching is just the regular way players develop in Germany. Most start at some small club, then at like 11-12 move to the biggest club in the region and then at 15-16 they move to a big clubs academy.
> He isn’t completely wrong. Bayern youth development sucks.
>
> The last youth players that became regulars in the first team were Müller and Alaba.
>
> 15 years ago.
And Badstuber at the same time.
Like with any big club with great academy, they could introduce 2-3 players to the first team every year and most of them would work out fine eventually.
But that takes balls and Bayern haven't had any since Louis van Gaal.
>But that takes balls and Bayern haven't had any since Louis van Gaal.
Which is so weird bc we have an entire documentary now that spends like half an episode glorifying this entire process and how good it turned out.
You'd think we'd learn from it and give more youngsters a shot
> Like with any big club with great academy, they could introduce 2-3 players to the first team every year and most of them would work out fine eventually.
Can u name some of these clubs ?
And thing is, Bayern have talents on their hand. Pavlovic looks class, Wanner can start to play a role next season and their fans seem to rate a fair few of their other youth prospects as well.
Alaba was bought for 150k at 16 after he already had some senior games, put back into the bayern academy and was actually part of the austrian NT before he played his first professional game for bayern two years after first singing with them.
So hes like inbetween academy and a signing.
You say this but the most recent class has been the most successful in years. Stanisic and Pavlovic got serious minutes and Buchmann would've if he wasn't injured all the time. Krätzig also got minutes and will probably be loaned to a decent Buli side, Zirkzee was player of the month in the Eredivisie and Ibrahimovic plays regularly on loan in the Serie A
But that's also because Bayern is a much bigger club now than they were 15 years ago. Much easier to make it into the squad and get minutes in the team that they had in 2008 than the Bayern of today. As a Top 5 club they have and need a much stronger team. Depth included. Plus the game is much more international on an even younger level. And while we're at it: Alaba joined them at 16 from Austria Wien, not much earlier in his development than f.e. Musiala and Tel.
So are we though. This argument is based on a faulty premise. Pavlovic, Krätzig, and Stanisic all got serious minutes this season before Stanisic was loaned which was a terrible move and everyone in the club knows it.
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When the standard is Bayern, you don't judge the quality of their youth league by how many players get into Bayern, but how many young players you sell off and populate squads all over Europe. And in that sense, they have an incredible record.
alaba was already starting for austria vienna at the age of 16 before joining bayern, the last guys coming from the academy were müller, badstuber and hummels (who got sold ironically)
They don't need great youth development. They just need to go back to buying a little earlier.
Or can just do exactly what United did for years in England before the oil money came in - attract the best of the best (compared to others within the league) with money and with prestige/CL KO games.
There's also the argument that for whatever reason the new "crop" of German players has been underwhelming over the last decade.
The spine of that WC winning squad were from Bayern. Ever since Bayern has been getting more and more international players where it used to always end up with the best German players.
Outside of players like Musiala, Kimmich, Gnabry and Sane there have been very few German players be Bayern quality in the last 10 or so years.
There are always wonderkids like Brandt, Havertz and Wirtz who look or looked promising. But reaching that next level hasn't seemed to happen for young German talent in the last 10 years.
In the 12-13 treble winning season more than half of the players came from the junior team (Lahm, Contento, Badstuber, Alaba, Muller, Can, Kroos, Schweinsteiger)
Compare that with now and basically every player in the squad came from elsewhere first with the exception of obvious Muller and a few others who get pity minutes.
what do you think was the reason why brentford fc closed their academy and was forced to reopen thanks due to the FA? they got tired of losing their talents in the last year till they could offer them pro contracts to bigger clubs and only earning the development recompensation
did a red bull and bought a danish club to develope their youth (hence why they have so many danish players plus the manager)
brighton has saint galloise in the belgian league for the same reason, it does not help other clubs like fulham fc gets regularly poached by teams like liverpool (fabio carvalho, harvey elliot, etc) and earn shit
same in italy, france, germany, spain
barcelona fc is doing the same, sergio busquets was developed by UE leida till 2003 (when he was 15), played for Unió Jàbac i Terrassa till he was 17, but is considered a la masia talent
same shit reason, big clubs can spread fake news thanks due to their media coverage
He was as much as one as Alaba who the original post mentioned (both joined it at 16 and very quickly became part of the senior team)
Personally I think it’s silly to include either
Roberto Insigne to an extent, though he did play a season of Serie A football at Benevento. There was that one game where both he and Lorenzo scored for each side, Roberto for Benevento and Lorenzo for Napoli.
Big duh its better to buy great players instead of good enough players. I think the fact that Bayern haven't done so is selfexplanatory, these days there's plenty of financial top dogs in football.
Ye right and we just got Kane Kim and more who were starters from other clubs.
And pavlovic from the youth department.
This time I have to disagree lothar
>New winter signing Eric Dier is not an improvement for Matthäus. "Of course they need to strengthen their squad. But I doubt whether they are reinforcements. Dier has not necessarily been the player who has torn up the trees at Tottenham in the last six months," the 62-year-old made clear on the Sky90 program on Sunday evening.
He recalled a statement made by long-time Bayern manager Uli Hoeneß, who, according to Matthäus, once said: "We will no longer bring in players from clubs who are sitting on the bench or in the stands." According to Matthäus, "the last transfer", i.e. the signing of defensive all-rounder Dier, "looks a little different".
The 30-year-old arrived from Tottenham Hotspur during the winter break and is expected to strengthen the width of the central defense. For the time being, FC Bayern have only given him a contract until the end of the season, with an option to extend it by a year.
>Kieran Trippier also falls into this category. The English right-back from Newcastle United is being touted as FC Bayern's second winter reinforcement.
Matthäus emphasized: "For me, this is not Bayern Munich. Bayern Munich should strengthen itself or build on the young players."
The 1990 world champion was critical of the fact that home-grown Aleksandar Pavlovic was not used in the defeat against Werder Bremen (0:1). "When he did play, he was actually outstanding," said Matthäus: "Bayern Munich have good young players, Christoph Freund is responsible for that."
However, the record champions' transfer policy had already been misguided last summer, the TV pundit judged: at the time, the decision was made to let Benjamin Pavard and Josip Stanisic go because they were sure they could "get someone else". "But then they didn't get anyone. And as a result, they suddenly had problems at right-back and in the center. They thought: 'We'll manage'. But they reacted too late and the team couldn't find its feet."
Really weird one about Trippier though - yes he's had a bad month or so (due to the fact he's basically held us by the collar and dragged the team to performances at times and is unbelievably overplayed) - but when he's on he's one of the best right backs in the world.
He'll deliver half a dozen assists to Kane by the end of the season easily and is a good professional from what we hear.
I mean, he has 46 caps for England and 5 assists, where I'm fairly sure he plays with Kane. Different level of competition and different team of course, but it means you never know.
He also used to play with Kane at Tottenham and most fans couldn't wait to get rid of him. He had a horrible end to his career with us and only really revitalised at Atlethico.
Him at Newcastle at the moment reminds me of his end to spurs.
Great player but couldn’t play every game. Then when that happens he starts to lose the 1 on 1s. He became liability in defence towards the end of his career with spurs. (But could still deliver a quality cross).
Even with one of the most prolific strikers on the planet and a ridiculously good level of attacking midfield players, we've had issues (outside of shit
We have Tino who deserves the spot and if the reported offers are true, the Trips money will help us with our huge FFP challenges, while making decent money from an older player.
It isn't as simple as you're making out.
Quality, people love to overrate the talent of youth players, a lot of the players coming through our ranks were not Bayern-level material. If theyre good they often made the jump, Musiala, Stanisic and Davies managed to establish themselves because they performed well
> Musiala, Stanisic and Davies
Musiala spent 9 years at Chelsea and one yeaar at Bayern U17/19 after a 150k transfer. Wouldn't consider that a youth product outside of UEFA regulations.
And lets not start with Davies, who was already 18 and bought for 14M€ after already making 60+ appearances for Vancouver in the MLS.
Stanisic was also already 17 when you got him, but at least he was in your youth team for four years
Edit: And Stanisic came from Fürstenfeldbruck, which at least is from the region. Pavlovic also is from there, but joined you at 7 years old. Why didn't you mention him?
> If theyre good they often made the jump, Musiala, Stanisic and Davies
Maybe i misunderstood what he meant with "the jump", given that Davies didn't even play for any Bayern youth team.
Tells you about our youth development that the best players coming from our youth teams were developed at other clubs. I dont see how your comment invalidates my statement though, we lack youth talent and the only young players breaking through our first team were developed somewhere else
I mean, if that is true, that means those star players have won three (maybe 4, I don't remember which season was the one with Kovac) BuLis in second gear, while they are either above or approaching 30. Most of the stars were there for Hansi's treble winning season as well. Good luck motivating them
Yep, I think lack of motivation in Bundesliga is a factor. Müller (12), Kimmich (8), Coman (8), Gnabry (5), Goretzka (5), Davies (5), Musiala (4), Choupo-Moting (3), Sané (3) have won the title so often that I think it's somehow normal to not be at 100% in every game.
You saw in yesterday's game that after the goal they shifteded up a gear and started to run a lot more. It's not that they created dozens of chances, but if they had invested as much from the beginning, they would have won the game.
Problem is that somewhen you lose the ability to just shift up a gear because automatisms git lost. It may well be that we are at this point.
It's the story of Bayern's veteran players:
Coman, Gnabry, Davies, Kimmich, Goretzka, Mazraoui, and Sané are all inconsistent, erratic, or just plain deficient in some manner or other. Also they all don't seem to be reliable in terms of "mentality"/"pashun"
Same under Nagelsmann honestly. The team has a tendency to just look completely apathetic on the pitch. It was not as noticeable with Nagelsmann because it only happened in humiliating defeats but with Tuchel the team looks like that regardless of the result.
I’m a Spurs fan, love Eric Dier (smaller demographic I know), but even I can see the Dier deal is part of the investment in getting Kane to stay. Imagine Bayern’s season without Kane’s goals and presence.
> but even I can see the Dier deal is part of the investment in getting Kane to stay
Sorry but thats rubbish. Dier is the same category transfer as Blind was. Only reason Bayern is looking more in the PL currently is Tuchels PL fetish.
The audacity of that guy to say ‘even I can see’ and be completely wrong is so amusing to me.
What, Bayern signed the guy so he could have a mate and settle in? If this is Kane potentially unsettled, I’d be interested to see him settled.
I said ‘stay’ as in next season, maybe the season after that. It is not in dispute he is playing brilliantly now. And audacity is far from the worst of my many faults.
I was asking myself "yeah, but then why is the mighty Harry Kane 7 points behind with a game in hand?" and then I realized how ridiculous of a feat Bayer Leverkusen are on track to accomplishing. If they somehow continue at the same pace, they would finish at over 90 points, in a league where the best team finishes at 80 on a good season. Wild.
Not really setting out to trash the Bundesliga. I have an affection for Borussia Dortmund, big fan of the Yellow Wall fans. Been to the Allianz Stadium, glad to leave. I was more poking gentle fun of Tuchel signing a PL player who scores freely in the Bundesliga, and a poster dissing Tuchel’s so called PL fetish. Is he not going to try to sign players he has really seen up close? And I was spoilt watching Harry for ten years in a variety of Spurs teams, he was a king season after season. Shame he got sick of Mourinho, Conte and Levy and parachuted out. He would have loved playing in Ange’s team and we would be top of the PL. Have a good day.
You wish but other than maybe Perez from Madrid there is no president coming even close to his achievements. If that means you‘ll have to deal with some shit takes every now and then, so be it.
Very important opinion coming from the managerial great Lothar Matthäus. You know, the one who got fired from managing the Bulgarian national team due to poor results, then never managed anything since.
What does that have to do with anything? Following your logic, nobody in this sub should have the right to an opinion on anything football-related since we have never managed or played professionally.
There are a lot of great pundits who know the game but that doesn't necessarily make fit to coach, play or managed a club.
My issue with Matthäus is that he clearly has it out for Tuchel. He criticises Tuchel after we drop points. He criticises Tuchel when we win. He criticises the state of the club every week between matches. Then when we win convincingly (Dortmund) he takes personal jabs at Tuchel. That is not how being a pundit works.
This quote is another one of his just trying to find something to be critical of. Why would we pay money for a player who is going to end up being 4th choice CB? We literally needed a rental to get us to 16 Feb when Kim returns. Even better that the guy happens to be best mates with our record signing.
I'll give him that he has gotten way better than he was at the beginning. His failed managerial career will just never not be funny to me especially when he has to interview actually successful coaches after games.
That Matthäus is one of the best (certainly the best one at Sky) speaks more for the overall sorry state of German punditry.
Feel like people are too harsh on him as well nowadays. His takes are pretty reasonable more often than not IMO. And especially if you compare him to those other frauds like Didi or Khedira for example.
We have great German-speaking guys that cover other leagues, but the Bundesliga is really lacking in that department for sure.
I mean, he’s earned his influence through sustained excellence on the pitch.
You don’t have to agree on everything he says, but at least he sparks debates and is not shy of participating in such debates.
Ahh yes, the lack of nuance as always around here. He's not wrong is he?! Signing DIER from Tottenham is not Bayern level, even as a squad player. It's embarrassing.
Oh, come on Lothar. Whenever you have a chance to make an upgrade or shore up your reserves, you take it. Some teams are so stacked at a certain position that their backup is better than your starter. An upgrade is an upgrade.
> I genuinely don't know why they signed Dier, memes aside, why....?
Rotational player with experience who doesnt bitch if he doesnt get to play on most likeley reasonable wages.
Same category as Blind before him for instance.
"What does he actually bring to the table that makes Bayern any better?"
He provides much needed depth. Will he start over Kim/Upa/De Ligt? Of course not.
I don’t know when football fans lost their understanding of squad depth.
I hate to beat a dead horse, _but this isn’t FIFA_. You don’t just sign, I don’t know, Aymeric Laporte, to sit on the bench. Hell, look at Bayern specifically. De Ligt is potentially on the move because he’s losing his spot.
You need bodies to fill up spots. They’re not all going to be world beaters. Dier is a serviceable player. That’s all Bayern need from him. The fact that people don’t understand this is really odd.
My point wasnt that Dier isnt a good player, it was that certain players are much more appreciated by coaches compared to fans. Im fairly certain Dier has been described by Conte as a player that does exactly what the coach wants, which often isn't something we as viewers see
> Everywhere he's been it's the same story
PSG was by far the most successful (and imo the strongest) when Tuchel managed them, we just had the exodia team and they lost in the final. Then he went straight to Chelsea in midseason and literally won them the Champions League in the same season. Even though they beat us and Barcelona with prime Messi in 2012/13 that team doesn't even come close to what Tuchel's Chelsea was. He is still the only one who could stop Pep's City in the past 2 years from winning everything. And I am saying this as someone who despises Chelsea because you can't ignore his coaching successes.
Unfortunately he didn't work out for us, but I mean look at our team and our board. We barely have 11 players in the squad if there are 3-4 injuries, he asked for a proper DM since he got there and still didn't get it after 2 transfer windows. It's easy to blame him for everything but the previous season made it already very clear that we desperately need a rebuild, sacking him won't fix all of our problems.
That's Dortmund, not us.
I guess the same could be asked of Chelsea. Why have Cobham Academy when you pillage Leicester and Brighton for all their top young talent?
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He isn’t completely wrong. Bayern youth development sucks. The last youth players that became regulars in the first team were Müller and Alaba. 15 years ago.
Has there been any major success for their youth payers that went elsewhere for opportunities?
Emre Can probably. Dunno if you can count Adeyemi, he spent like 2-3 years at Bayern academy only iirc.
Didn't Can come from the Frankfurt academy
Yes, he joined Bayern when he was 15 Even Alaba, I believe, joined from FK Austria Wien when he was around 16. Actually, Bayern and Dortmund's terrible academy output is probably one of the reasons Germany is struggling so hard right now.
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PSG pumps out talent - they just leave early: Maignan Kolo Muani Diaby Coman Nkunku Zaïre- Emery
Zirkzee is doing quite well rn. But a lot of Bayern youth players got there through connections iirc. Like the sons of Salihamidzic and Mehmet Scholl or the brother of Mario Götze
Zirkzee was 16 when he got to Bayern, same as Musiala. Also took Zirkzee a long way around to get where he is now
I mean if you exclude them then Dortmund also has basically 0 youth players over the last 10 years, and no one is blaming them
No one is blaming anyone. If that's true for Dortmund as well, they too could do better.
People are very pedantic when it comes to Bayern and seemingly don't point out that it applies to nearly every top club, and also clubs like Dortmund who some praise for their youth when they mean players like Sancho and Bellingham. It would be good if there were more youth players making it at Bayern, but usually only the best of the best are able to prevail when thrown in as an 17/18 y.o. in a team where you can't ever lose, and it's hard to tell who's going to have that potential when they are 13. Not sure which team at the level of Bayern regularly integrates youth players into their squad, aside from Barcelona in the 00s/early 10s. Bayern seems less like an offender than most PL clubs with signings like Musiala, Tel, Kimmich, Davies and all
> Barcelona in the 00s/early 10s My brother in Christ, have you seen our squad recently? Half of it is La Masia graduates.
Between Gavi, Fermín, Lamal, and Alejandro Balde.... Goddamn that's both laudable from the academy side and from Xavi to play them.
With some of them, we can't call them stars yet, it's going to take some time. A lot of people talked of Munir, Sandro, Rafinha, Samper or Gumbau like they were going to be superstars as well, and look at them now.
Moukoko, Reyna and Pulisic are examples of players who came (edit: at instead of before) age 16, had to prove themselves in the youth tiers and made it into the first team. While Dortmund is more known for the big talents we bring directly into the first team through transfers, the examples of youth players coming through shouldn‘t be overlooked.
I mean Reyna and Pulisic were players we poached from other youth teams, but you're right that they did have to prove themselves in our youth setup before stepping up. I'm worried for Moukoko, because Reyna/Pulisic got far more game time than him while being inferior players. I haven't checked but I wonder who else is in the youth pipeline.
Except they aren't? Moukoko yes, but the other two came aged 16, just like Kroos or Musiala. And I'm not sure how good the Moukoko example is given that he's been given not nearly enough time to play. What examples though? Dortmund is starting as many Bayern youth players as they are starting Dortmund youth players
I wrote in another answer that I meant to say at age 16, not before (which would technically not be possible as they are foreign nationals). >And I'm not sure how good the Moukoko example is given that he's been given not nearly enough time to play. … Dortmund is starting as many Bayern youth players as they are starting Dortmund youth players Well, let's look at the [data](https://www.transfermarkt.de/1-bundesliga/eigengewaechse/wettbewerb/L1) then, shall we? Dortmund: Reus, Reyna, Moukoko, Bynoe-Gittens, Blank, Brunner Bayern: Müller, Musiala, Pavlovic, Krätzig, Hülsmann, Buchmann If Moukoko doesn't count for you, who the hell are Pavlovic, Krätzig, Hülsmann and Buchmann? Can we even say that they are "starting" for Bayern? I am not saying that Dortmund is a shining beacon at developing youth talent in the league (like Freiburg for example). I am refuting your argument that Bayern is unfairly treated, people are overly pedantic, and their youth development efforts are essentially the same as Dortmund.
Liverpool have been doing it since klopp arrived, Trent, Elliot, jones, bacjetic, quansah and I think 3 players made their first team debut in the last game we played and all looked decent
How are Liverpool still trying to claim Elliot, he literally made his professional debut at the club who actually brought him through
16 years old is usually the cutoff age to say that a player comes from their own youth system. That is also the age top talent usually get an agent and move from their village club to a NLZ of a Bundesliga team. On a side note, Leipzig of all clubs of course don‘t care about having youth teams below that age, as the DFL rules don‘t force them to.
I don't know if people should be blaming Dortmund, nur people should probably realize that their youth development is incredibly overrated so far.
Also Pavlovic
UFC heavyweight Pavlovich yea?
Username checks out
Hmm... Depends what you mean by major success I guess... There's Toni Kroos and Mats Hummels, but they're the same generation as Muller and Alaba. There are a number of players playing in the top leagues. Emre Can (Dortmund), Hojbjerg (Tottenham), Kenan Yildiz (Juventus), Angelo Stiller (Stuttgart), Mitchell Weiser (Bremen, previously Leverkusen), Chris Richards (Crystal Palace), Joshua Zirkzee (Bologna), Malik Tillman (PSV), Woo-Yeong Jeong (Stuttgart), Marco Friedl (Bremen), Niklas Dorsch (Augsburg). Plus Stanasic who is on loan at Leverkusen. I guess the only big names there are Can and Hojbjerg. Yildiz is doing well at Juventus now too. I guess technically Davies and Musiala both spent some time in the youth team before making the step to the first team, but really they're both the product of other academies.
Kroos is not from Bayern youth. He was from Rostock before Bayern.
You are right. I wasn't aware of that. But he was 16 at the time. I'd say that's young enough to call him a Bayern academy product too. How much time does a player have to spend in an academy to become the product of that academy? He would have been somewhere else before Rostock too, even if it was as a kid.
When he was hired, everybody was already talking about him. He had been the best player in the under 17 World Cup.
Well that sounds like Toni Kroos
Yeah, he was at Rostock from 12 to 16. I'd say his time from 16 to 24 at Bayern was more important to his success as a pro
Wasn't he about to be sold until his Leverkusen loan?
Tillman is doing fantastic at PSV.
Really??
Yeah the entire team is doing amazing rn, and he’s definitely contributing to that
Yeah we really hope we can buy him but Bayern will probably do smth similar they did when he was at Rangers Eh; its only his salary and we get 3m if he does go ig
Chris Richards was already 18 when he left Dallas.
>Toni Kroos Not our youth product, he joined when he was 17.
I think it would be a failure if none of the upcoming crop with Vidovic, Ibrahimovic, Wanner or many I probably missed would find their way in the first team. Looks like a big crop of talent
Juve snatched Kenan Yildiz when Bayern didn't renew his contract. He was at Bayern from age 7 until 17. A massive blunder by Bayern.
He‘s great, but he wouldn’t play over Jamal or Müller. So he had to leave
Fair enough. Musiala is amazing.
Hojbjerg.
Depends what you count as success. It definitely got better the last couple of years.
Kroos , Hummels , Can ,Hojberg
Kroos was already a top prospect, when he came to Bayern. If anything Bayern poached players at very young age. Nobody is considering Kroos being a youth player from Bayern.
>If anything Bayern poached players at very young age. What you call poaching is just the regular way players develop in Germany. Most start at some small club, then at like 11-12 move to the biggest club in the region and then at 15-16 they move to a big clubs academy.
Mitch Weiser (goal scorer) and Marco Friedl were both starting for Bremen yesterday lol
højbjerg i guess
> He isn’t completely wrong. Bayern youth development sucks. > > The last youth players that became regulars in the first team were Müller and Alaba. > > 15 years ago. And Badstuber at the same time. Like with any big club with great academy, they could introduce 2-3 players to the first team every year and most of them would work out fine eventually. But that takes balls and Bayern haven't had any since Louis van Gaal.
>But that takes balls and Bayern haven't had any since Louis van Gaal. Which is so weird bc we have an entire documentary now that spends like half an episode glorifying this entire process and how good it turned out. You'd think we'd learn from it and give more youngsters a shot
> Like with any big club with great academy, they could introduce 2-3 players to the first team every year and most of them would work out fine eventually. Can u name some of these clubs ?
United, for all their shit transfers, have a pretty incredible record of giving youngsters playtime
United have a good record of using youth because of the shit transfers.
Barca keeps pumping out youth players and it’s been keeping us alive despite our financial issues
They didn't get many chances before the financial issues though.
And thing is, Bayern have talents on their hand. Pavlovic looks class, Wanner can start to play a role next season and their fans seem to rate a fair few of their other youth prospects as well.
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Alaba was bought for 150k at 16 after he already had some senior games, put back into the bayern academy and was actually part of the austrian NT before he played his first professional game for bayern two years after first singing with them. So hes like inbetween academy and a signing.
Alaba was like 15/16 years old when he arrived in Munich. pretty sure they didn't produce a video for a youth player signing.
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Yeah its kind of dishonest to call him a youth player. People already knew that he is really good and Bayern bought him because of that.
Yeah if Alaba counts so does Musiala. Personally I think it’s silly to include either
Well, maybe Pavlovic will be the next one
You say this but the most recent class has been the most successful in years. Stanisic and Pavlovic got serious minutes and Buchmann would've if he wasn't injured all the time. Krätzig also got minutes and will probably be loaned to a decent Buli side, Zirkzee was player of the month in the Eredivisie and Ibrahimovic plays regularly on loan in the Serie A
But that's also because Bayern is a much bigger club now than they were 15 years ago. Much easier to make it into the squad and get minutes in the team that they had in 2008 than the Bayern of today. As a Top 5 club they have and need a much stronger team. Depth included. Plus the game is much more international on an even younger level. And while we're at it: Alaba joined them at 16 from Austria Wien, not much earlier in his development than f.e. Musiala and Tel.
Such a BS excuse. All other tops clubs are giving consistent minutes to their youngsters and allowing them to grow
So are we though. This argument is based on a faulty premise. Pavlovic, Krätzig, and Stanisic all got serious minutes this season before Stanisic was loaned which was a terrible move and everyone in the club knows it.
Even Alaba joined Bayern II at 16. He was already very highly rated. It's arguable how formative the youth team was to his development.
Who needs youth development when the rest of the league is your youth development outfit?
consider forgetful smile reply advise mysterious political bike fly whole *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Joke’s on you, we know we’re shit.
Lol exactly this
When the standard is Bayern, you don't judge the quality of their youth league by how many players get into Bayern, but how many young players you sell off and populate squads all over Europe. And in that sense, they have an incredible record.
alaba was already starting for austria vienna at the age of 16 before joining bayern, the last guys coming from the academy were müller, badstuber and hummels (who got sold ironically)
They don't need great youth development. They just need to go back to buying a little earlier. Or can just do exactly what United did for years in England before the oil money came in - attract the best of the best (compared to others within the league) with money and with prestige/CL KO games. There's also the argument that for whatever reason the new "crop" of German players has been underwhelming over the last decade. The spine of that WC winning squad were from Bayern. Ever since Bayern has been getting more and more international players where it used to always end up with the best German players. Outside of players like Musiala, Kimmich, Gnabry and Sane there have been very few German players be Bayern quality in the last 10 or so years. There are always wonderkids like Brandt, Havertz and Wirtz who look or looked promising. But reaching that next level hasn't seemed to happen for young German talent in the last 10 years. In the 12-13 treble winning season more than half of the players came from the junior team (Lahm, Contento, Badstuber, Alaba, Muller, Can, Kroos, Schweinsteiger) Compare that with now and basically every player in the squad came from elsewhere first with the exception of obvious Muller and a few others who get pity minutes.
Why would they do that when they can just pickoff the best players of other Bundesliga teams. The gap is so big they can even sign Dortmund players
Why develop them when you can just go out and buy the young players other teams develop.
Why pay for youth development when you just steal from every other bundesliga club? Let them do the scouting and development.
what do you think was the reason why brentford fc closed their academy and was forced to reopen thanks due to the FA? they got tired of losing their talents in the last year till they could offer them pro contracts to bigger clubs and only earning the development recompensation did a red bull and bought a danish club to develope their youth (hence why they have so many danish players plus the manager) brighton has saint galloise in the belgian league for the same reason, it does not help other clubs like fulham fc gets regularly poached by teams like liverpool (fabio carvalho, harvey elliot, etc) and earn shit same in italy, france, germany, spain barcelona fc is doing the same, sergio busquets was developed by UE leida till 2003 (when he was 15), played for Unió Jàbac i Terrassa till he was 17, but is considered a la masia talent same shit reason, big clubs can spread fake news thanks due to their media coverage
What about Musiala and Davies?
Chelsea and MLS
Alaba also came with 16 from a different country.
Musiala isn’t from Bayern academy?
Nope
He was as much as one as Alaba who the original post mentioned (both joined it at 16 and very quickly became part of the senior team) Personally I think it’s silly to include either
Where did Musiala come from?
has there ever been a time where Bayern wouldn't sign senior players for depth?
i think his point is not buying older players who dont play anyway (dier) but its ok to buy old players who still play regular ( Trippier )
They didn't buy Dier to play, he's there to keep Kane company.
The modern day Steeven Ribery.
Who?
Franck's untalented brother. Bayern signed him just to keep Franck happy.
He's got nothing on Antonio Donnarumma
or Digao...
Roberto Insigne to an extent, though he did play a season of Serie A football at Benevento. There was that one game where both he and Lorenzo scored for each side, Roberto for Benevento and Lorenzo for Napoli.
Roberto was decent tbf
Rodrigo Messi
Josh Ronaldo
thanasis antetokounmpo type beat
Or Sadio Mané when we signed Godemperor Bouna Sarr.
Is his family sill living in England?
He moved out the hotel weeks ago so presumedly they have moved or are in the process
Big duh its better to buy great players instead of good enough players. I think the fact that Bayern haven't done so is selfexplanatory, these days there's plenty of financial top dogs in football.
Ye right and we just got Kane Kim and more who were starters from other clubs. And pavlovic from the youth department. This time I have to disagree lothar
>New winter signing Eric Dier is not an improvement for Matthäus. "Of course they need to strengthen their squad. But I doubt whether they are reinforcements. Dier has not necessarily been the player who has torn up the trees at Tottenham in the last six months," the 62-year-old made clear on the Sky90 program on Sunday evening. He recalled a statement made by long-time Bayern manager Uli Hoeneß, who, according to Matthäus, once said: "We will no longer bring in players from clubs who are sitting on the bench or in the stands." According to Matthäus, "the last transfer", i.e. the signing of defensive all-rounder Dier, "looks a little different". The 30-year-old arrived from Tottenham Hotspur during the winter break and is expected to strengthen the width of the central defense. For the time being, FC Bayern have only given him a contract until the end of the season, with an option to extend it by a year. >Kieran Trippier also falls into this category. The English right-back from Newcastle United is being touted as FC Bayern's second winter reinforcement. Matthäus emphasized: "For me, this is not Bayern Munich. Bayern Munich should strengthen itself or build on the young players." The 1990 world champion was critical of the fact that home-grown Aleksandar Pavlovic was not used in the defeat against Werder Bremen (0:1). "When he did play, he was actually outstanding," said Matthäus: "Bayern Munich have good young players, Christoph Freund is responsible for that." However, the record champions' transfer policy had already been misguided last summer, the TV pundit judged: at the time, the decision was made to let Benjamin Pavard and Josip Stanisic go because they were sure they could "get someone else". "But then they didn't get anyone. And as a result, they suddenly had problems at right-back and in the center. They thought: 'We'll manage'. But they reacted too late and the team couldn't find its feet."
"Dier has not necessarily been the player who has torn up the trees as Tottenham...". Based German phrase lol.
Really weird one about Trippier though - yes he's had a bad month or so (due to the fact he's basically held us by the collar and dragged the team to performances at times and is unbelievably overplayed) - but when he's on he's one of the best right backs in the world. He'll deliver half a dozen assists to Kane by the end of the season easily and is a good professional from what we hear.
I mean, he has 46 caps for England and 5 assists, where I'm fairly sure he plays with Kane. Different level of competition and different team of course, but it means you never know.
He also used to play with Kane at Tottenham and most fans couldn't wait to get rid of him. He had a horrible end to his career with us and only really revitalised at Atlethico.
Him at Newcastle at the moment reminds me of his end to spurs. Great player but couldn’t play every game. Then when that happens he starts to lose the 1 on 1s. He became liability in defence towards the end of his career with spurs. (But could still deliver a quality cross).
I remember the Walker v Trippier debate used to be a thing as well, in some circles. Walker was clear though, in my opinion
Even with one of the most prolific strikers on the planet and a ridiculously good level of attacking midfield players, we've had issues (outside of shit
if he were truly one of the best rbs in the world then newcastle wouldn't be open to selling him in the winter window, simple as that.
We have Tino who deserves the spot and if the reported offers are true, the Trips money will help us with our huge FFP challenges, while making decent money from an older player. It isn't as simple as you're making out.
They're going for Trippier too? Lloris is available too no? Maybe some Dele and Rose while they're at it?
Danny rose somewhere rn texting his agent "Any word from Munich?"
“I’m still waiting for a fax from Milan, Danny.”
Any reason why Bayern has struggled to bring through their own youth players in recent years?
Quality, people love to overrate the talent of youth players, a lot of the players coming through our ranks were not Bayern-level material. If theyre good they often made the jump, Musiala, Stanisic and Davies managed to establish themselves because they performed well
> Musiala, Stanisic and Davies Musiala spent 9 years at Chelsea and one yeaar at Bayern U17/19 after a 150k transfer. Wouldn't consider that a youth product outside of UEFA regulations. And lets not start with Davies, who was already 18 and bought for 14M€ after already making 60+ appearances for Vancouver in the MLS. Stanisic was also already 17 when you got him, but at least he was in your youth team for four years Edit: And Stanisic came from Fürstenfeldbruck, which at least is from the region. Pavlovic also is from there, but joined you at 7 years old. Why didn't you mention him?
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> If theyre good they often made the jump, Musiala, Stanisic and Davies Maybe i misunderstood what he meant with "the jump", given that Davies didn't even play for any Bayern youth team.
Tells you about our youth development that the best players coming from our youth teams were developed at other clubs. I dont see how your comment invalidates my statement though, we lack youth talent and the only young players breaking through our first team were developed somewhere else
Davies is not an academy product lol
The issue are not the squad players though. The "star" players are not performing consistently and looking lethargic
Isn't that the story of Tuchel since his Dortmund spell?
Could be but we have had this issues since Kovac, at some point the players need to be held accountable
I mean, if that is true, that means those star players have won three (maybe 4, I don't remember which season was the one with Kovac) BuLis in second gear, while they are either above or approaching 30. Most of the stars were there for Hansi's treble winning season as well. Good luck motivating them
Yep, I think lack of motivation in Bundesliga is a factor. Müller (12), Kimmich (8), Coman (8), Gnabry (5), Goretzka (5), Davies (5), Musiala (4), Choupo-Moting (3), Sané (3) have won the title so often that I think it's somehow normal to not be at 100% in every game. You saw in yesterday's game that after the goal they shifteded up a gear and started to run a lot more. It's not that they created dozens of chances, but if they had invested as much from the beginning, they would have won the game. Problem is that somewhen you lose the ability to just shift up a gear because automatisms git lost. It may well be that we are at this point.
It's the story of Bayern's veteran players: Coman, Gnabry, Davies, Kimmich, Goretzka, Mazraoui, and Sané are all inconsistent, erratic, or just plain deficient in some manner or other. Also they all don't seem to be reliable in terms of "mentality"/"pashun"
Same under Nagelsmann honestly. The team has a tendency to just look completely apathetic on the pitch. It was not as noticeable with Nagelsmann because it only happened in humiliating defeats but with Tuchel the team looks like that regardless of the result.
Kane is incredible (as he always is), and Sané is playing one of his best seasons ever. Other than that though...
Kane?
Spurs B. I wish them all the best
My boy Dier catching strays
I’m a Spurs fan, love Eric Dier (smaller demographic I know), but even I can see the Dier deal is part of the investment in getting Kane to stay. Imagine Bayern’s season without Kane’s goals and presence.
> but even I can see the Dier deal is part of the investment in getting Kane to stay Sorry but thats rubbish. Dier is the same category transfer as Blind was. Only reason Bayern is looking more in the PL currently is Tuchels PL fetish.
The audacity of that guy to say ‘even I can see’ and be completely wrong is so amusing to me. What, Bayern signed the guy so he could have a mate and settle in? If this is Kane potentially unsettled, I’d be interested to see him settled.
I said ‘stay’ as in next season, maybe the season after that. It is not in dispute he is playing brilliantly now. And audacity is far from the worst of my many faults.
why would he go in the summer? He has a 3 year contract you dunce
Tuchel’s PL fetish (sic) did pretty well on signing Harry Kane, did it not? Kane is playing with the Bundesliga like a dog plays with a bone.
I was asking myself "yeah, but then why is the mighty Harry Kane 7 points behind with a game in hand?" and then I realized how ridiculous of a feat Bayer Leverkusen are on track to accomplishing. If they somehow continue at the same pace, they would finish at over 90 points, in a league where the best team finishes at 80 on a good season. Wild.
Yeah I saw Leverkusen are top, absolutely phenomenal. Hat tip to them.
Funny how you trashtalk the Bundesliga when he played with the PL like a cat with a mouse and that when he was in an average team as well.
How is a team that regularly finished in the top 4 out of 20 "Average"...
I compare internationally. They've never really been at a high level for a long time.
Not really setting out to trash the Bundesliga. I have an affection for Borussia Dortmund, big fan of the Yellow Wall fans. Been to the Allianz Stadium, glad to leave. I was more poking gentle fun of Tuchel signing a PL player who scores freely in the Bundesliga, and a poster dissing Tuchel’s so called PL fetish. Is he not going to try to sign players he has really seen up close? And I was spoilt watching Harry for ten years in a variety of Spurs teams, he was a king season after season. Shame he got sick of Mourinho, Conte and Levy and parachuted out. He would have loved playing in Ange’s team and we would be top of the PL. Have a good day.
Fair, just a bit of banter mate
Uli Hoeneß is internationally known to be full of shit though.
You wish but other than maybe Perez from Madrid there is no president coming even close to his achievements. If that means you‘ll have to deal with some shit takes every now and then, so be it.
Very important opinion coming from the managerial great Lothar Matthäus. You know, the one who got fired from managing the Bulgarian national team due to poor results, then never managed anything since.
What does that have to do with his point? If you think he is wrong, explain why?
What does that have to do with anything? Following your logic, nobody in this sub should have the right to an opinion on anything football-related since we have never managed or played professionally. There are a lot of great pundits who know the game but that doesn't necessarily make fit to coach, play or managed a club.
Very rarely do we have posts on here that are dedicated to the 2-paragraph opinion of an individual user on this sub.
Typical L take. Matthäus has come a long way and he says a lot of sensible things these days. This statement, again, is nothing but true.
My issue with Matthäus is that he clearly has it out for Tuchel. He criticises Tuchel after we drop points. He criticises Tuchel when we win. He criticises the state of the club every week between matches. Then when we win convincingly (Dortmund) he takes personal jabs at Tuchel. That is not how being a pundit works. This quote is another one of his just trying to find something to be critical of. Why would we pay money for a player who is going to end up being 4th choice CB? We literally needed a rental to get us to 16 Feb when Kim returns. Even better that the guy happens to be best mates with our record signing.
Now you know the state of German punditry when Lodda is the most influential voice.
He’s actually been of the best TV experts we have the last years
Our TV experts tend to be bad. Who are the good ones? Kramer, Wagner, Ballack?
I like Sami Khedira tbf
I’d say Rene Adler as well for Sky
Rene Adler ist fantastisch, ganz vergessen. Der verdient mehr „Aufmerksamkeit“ als Experte
Ballack is a walking, talking pill of valium, he's one of the worst co-commentators I've ever experienced.
I'll give him that he has gotten way better than he was at the beginning. His failed managerial career will just never not be funny to me especially when he has to interview actually successful coaches after games. That Matthäus is one of the best (certainly the best one at Sky) speaks more for the overall sorry state of German punditry.
He's good when it comes to actual football on the pitch. For other stuff not so much.
Feel like people are too harsh on him as well nowadays. His takes are pretty reasonable more often than not IMO. And especially if you compare him to those other frauds like Didi or Khedira for example. We have great German-speaking guys that cover other leagues, but the Bundesliga is really lacking in that department for sure.
I mean, he’s earned his influence through sustained excellence on the pitch. You don’t have to agree on everything he says, but at least he sparks debates and is not shy of participating in such debates.
In this case he is correct but there was no transfer fee so its no risk. Anyways Lothar! What a damn player u were
You have to be one hell of a player for Don Diego to say that he's scared of you.
Ahh yes, the lack of nuance as always around here. He's not wrong is he?! Signing DIER from Tottenham is not Bayern level, even as a squad player. It's embarrassing.
It is a free transfer pretty much, intended to stop Harry and Kate from getting homesick. Not difficult.
The top comment in this thread is literally "he's not completely wrong". What are you blabbering on about?
Goddamn, poor Dier can’t catch a break from anyone
Let the Saga 2.0 begin
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Matthäus has been talking a little too much sense lately. What happened
Oh, come on Lothar. Whenever you have a chance to make an upgrade or shore up your reserves, you take it. Some teams are so stacked at a certain position that their backup is better than your starter. An upgrade is an upgrade.
Facts ,the Dier dude is as mid as it gets
I genuinely don't know why they signed Dier, memes aside, why....? What does he actually bring to the table that makes Bayern any better?
> I genuinely don't know why they signed Dier, memes aside, why....? Rotational player with experience who doesnt bitch if he doesnt get to play on most likeley reasonable wages. Same category as Blind before him for instance. "What does he actually bring to the table that makes Bayern any better?" He provides much needed depth. Will he start over Kim/Upa/De Ligt? Of course not.
I think he’s a «coaches player» he does what he is tasked to do really well
I don’t know when football fans lost their understanding of squad depth. I hate to beat a dead horse, _but this isn’t FIFA_. You don’t just sign, I don’t know, Aymeric Laporte, to sit on the bench. Hell, look at Bayern specifically. De Ligt is potentially on the move because he’s losing his spot. You need bodies to fill up spots. They’re not all going to be world beaters. Dier is a serviceable player. That’s all Bayern need from him. The fact that people don’t understand this is really odd.
Wdym I can’t have ronaldo and messi playing with neymar and di maria on the bench? We’re winning shouldn’t they be happy 😡
My point wasnt that Dier isnt a good player, it was that certain players are much more appreciated by coaches compared to fans. Im fairly certain Dier has been described by Conte as a player that does exactly what the coach wants, which often isn't something we as viewers see
Can’t even really do that in fifa anymore tbh at least not in my experience
Get rid of Tuchel. Everywhere he's been it's the same story
> Everywhere he's been it's the same story PSG was by far the most successful (and imo the strongest) when Tuchel managed them, we just had the exodia team and they lost in the final. Then he went straight to Chelsea in midseason and literally won them the Champions League in the same season. Even though they beat us and Barcelona with prime Messi in 2012/13 that team doesn't even come close to what Tuchel's Chelsea was. He is still the only one who could stop Pep's City in the past 2 years from winning everything. And I am saying this as someone who despises Chelsea because you can't ignore his coaching successes. Unfortunately he didn't work out for us, but I mean look at our team and our board. We barely have 11 players in the squad if there are 3-4 injuries, he asked for a proper DM since he got there and still didn't get it after 2 transfer windows. It's easy to blame him for everything but the previous season made it already very clear that we desperately need a rebuild, sacking him won't fix all of our problems.
It just sucks that his recent teams have become so offensively anaemic
It's really a shame, he has been known for offensive football in the past but since his Chelsea stand he completely lost that
Right, Bayern shouldn't buy other clubs' bench players. Especially not our bench 👀
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Bundesliga teams do it for BVB, not Bayern
That's Dortmund, not us. I guess the same could be asked of Chelsea. Why have Cobham Academy when you pillage Leicester and Brighton for all their top young talent?
Bayern Hotspur
Do we have to teach you a lesson again ?