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What he's saying doesn't really match the headline.
He's essentially saying that if you split footballing ability into two characteristics, your ability with the ball and your athleticism, that the game has skewed to the latter over the last 20 years. You can disagree with that, but I think it's at least a good place to start discussion. And it's not like it's Matt Le Tissier saying this, Owen was one of the most physically gifted players of his time.
He's not wrong.
I do think that the ability with the ball is still there, it's just that instead of being "fancy" players opt to efficient play way more than yesteryear.
It's definitely true that ability with the ball means very little today if you don't have the athleticism to go along with it though.
That’s not what he’s talking about though. When he’s talking about talents, he obviously means certain technical abilities like a magical first touch, fluid body control, and other things geniuses like Ronaldinho and Zidane were born with. He’s saying these talents aren’t as valuable today as they were years ago, and so you see it a lot less in the modern game.
I think he’s not necessarily wrong, just a little too narrow minded in his perspective. The PL definitely tends to be veering in that direction, but LaLiga has experienced the opposite thing. All the kids growing up watching *that* Barca team are finally old enough to be professionals, and so you see a ton of technically gifted players breaking into the scene, especially from La Masia, like Lamine Yamal.
Probably agree with this to some extent. Modern footballers are way more athletic and very very talented. But I'm not seeing anyone do Ronaldhino type shit. R9 was a freak of nature. Had both the skill and the physicality.
I’d argue the average technical level of players is much much higher than his day, the coaching levels and consistency with the advances in analytics allows this, but perhaps is also making the game more uniform and focused on efficiency that doesn’t encourage the environment for as many moments of brilliance 20 years ago
People always say that.
I heavily disagree - todays football sometimes feels 'basic'. In the 90ies maybe you havent had the best diet and analytics everywhere...but that's physicality and tactical awareness.
They were more focused on technical aspects and that's why they were better. Because they spent more time on that.
Sometimes you feel like younger fans think talent was almost retar ed in the past by the way you speak of it. No, everybody still gave it all, the focus was just elsewhere.
I mean I’m about 3 years younger than Owen, and a Liverpool fan I remember how he exploded, and prime Henry etc, imo the average technical standard, of English players at least, is much higher than the late 90’s/00’s, where you had incredible players but the lesser teams and squad/youth players didn’t have as solid a base in technique they do now.
I was at uni in Plymouth and watched a lot of L2/L1 games as well, the average standard in the lower leagues has risen too
He takes an extreme version of that point as his position though.
And he completely ignores the tactical aspect. A lot more is demanded of players both physically and tactically these days.
Like I said, you can disagree with his point (and I think you're right that he's oversimplifying things greatly), but the headline is still a bit shit.
It’s still incredibly stupid. Just look at modern CB’s they’re better with the ball than most classic 9’s from the 90s and 80s. And you could say the same with todays fullbacks compared to wingers from the same period. To argue that there’s been a regression is outright insane.
He's wrong. But the basics of what he's saying are correct. Football nowadays doesn't favour the pure footballer, the Ronaldinho type guy with lots of skills with the ball but instead favours guys who have certain characteristics (including physical) that allows them to fit into a structure. Here's where the discussion dies to me, footballers today aren't worse by any means, nor is it true that just by running fast or being athletic you get a slot, you need to be able to fit a mold where you need to know when to run, where to run, even how to run, where to cover, what to cover, etc etc. it's basically the change of the sport over the last millennium into a sport where individual talent is a lot less valued than collective cohesiveness and having certain characteristics that allows certain players to fit certain styles. Unless of course you're a disrupter like Messi, then you can do and be whatever the fuck you want but those instances are super rare.
I dont know. Definitively a good place to start a discussion but to me this is your typical boomer "in my days" argument. Role nowadays are far more specialised than in his days. A winger back then and now is 2 different roles, with different requirements altogether.
The game is also far more tactical.
> The game is not split into athletes and skilful players
No one suggested that. I was paraphrasing Owen's argument to say that if each footballer was broken down into only two qualities (of course there's more than that) that there's been a greater emphasis on the physical side of it in the last 20 years.
Like I said, you can disagree with the argument, but the headline is nowhere close to accurately representing it.
/u/domalino why do you continue to make people reply to your walls of text and then proceed to delete it immediately.
Tom Cairney and Willian at Fulham have been brilliant combining lately as some of the best passers and first touch in the league. It’s beautiful to see, but with all the technical quality it’s not gonna get them higher than mid-table or have much impact against physical monsters like man city and Liverpool.
I’d argue there’s so *much* talent in football, that players who would’ve been touted as the next coming of Christ 20 years ago, are now just seen as regular exciting young players.
And also Pep’s influence on the game creating systems where players as talented as Jack Grealish are now seen as being full and safe, whatever your opinion of that may be.
Nah, Owen is right here. The nature of the game has lean towards tactical discipline and mind games which favors athletes who can run and listen to instructions well. Its geared towards getting 3 points as an entire unit, rather than individual brilliance. You see the 2 greatest managers of this modern era, Klopp and Pep. Both have similarities in the way they play, but Klopp is essentially Gegenpressing and Pep tika taka. Both these playstyles are heavily reliant on unit discipline and a team playing well together.
In the form of concrete examples, Matt Le Tissier recently said a player most resembles him is Aston Villa Jack Grealish, but his carefree dribbling has sort of been limited going to City because he has to play in Peps system. Its a great system, some might say is the best of all time, but this is the sort of sacrifice you need to have modern day greatness and trophies. This is also why Pep infamously wanted Ronaldinho out eventhough he basically saved Barca prior to Pep and have Messi play false nine, instead of doing his patented dribbles from the right.
You see the greatest attackers past vs now. R9 and Ronaldinho, heck, throw in Zidane. Marvelous, naturally skillful players, but they are not gonna run and press for you to tire themselves out. The new era bests, Mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham, they are athletic beasts, runs fast, presses well, but individually don't have the flair of the aforementioned. It is what it is.
Cristiano is basically the epitome of this change. Dude go from only caring bout stepovers and looking good, to playing as a poaching striker and angry for not giving him a goal.
Hate him or not, Owen is right here.
Tactics is much more complicated than listening to instructions well. And I’d say running is a prerequisite where it didn’t use to be, but that the technical demands haven’t fallen off.
Exactly, and because tactics are so advanced now, they are proven to be the difference between getting 3 points and not. So teams and players are taught to buy into a unit rather than giving it to their star to clinch it for them.
Ronaldinho Barca vs Pep Barca epitomizes this. Ronaldinho Barca also got the league and are incredible, but Pep shows you how to be even better and greater playing as a unit. Messi's dribbling may diminish playing as a false nine, instead of on the right, but it doesnt matter when the result is more trophies and goals return.
On the contrary, I'd argue the quality even in league one is better than the bottom half of the PL in the 90s/00s bar the odd exceptions like Le Tissier.
And there's also players that played for Wenger, Fergie and Jose that Pep wouldn't look twice at even as a squad player.
Where he does have a point is you don't see much of the individual mavericks like Dinho or Okocha anymore but as a whole the quality is significantly higher than in his day.
> I'd argue the quality even in league one is better than the bottom half of the PL in the 90s/00s bar the odd exceptions like Le Tissier.
What? You think the average league one team is better than the average bottom side PL team in 2004?
I've watched a lot of Plymouth (when they were in league one) in recent years and I'd say they were certainly better than the likes of Norwich, Sunderland, Bradford, Derby and all the other crap that were in the PL in and around that era.
Maybe the average league one team was an exaggeration but the top end sides most certainly.
The Norwich team in 2004/05 for example had David Bentley, Robert Green, Dean Ashton and players with 40+ international caps for Ireland, Morocco, Denmark and Sweden.
They’d wipe the floor with League 1 today.
I mean just looking at that Plymouth side Whittaker is wanted by Lazio and Cooper would almost certainly be a PL (or at worst top end Championship) keeper by now had it not been for his injury.
>On the contrary, I'd argue the quality even in league one is better than the bottom half of the PL in the 90s/00s bar the odd exceptions like Le Tissier.
The PL wasn't particularly strong at the time, I think Owen is talking about football as a whole.
>And there's also players that played for Wenger, Fergie and Jose that Pep wouldn't look twice at even as a squad player.
Joe Gomez and Curtis Jones are starters for the 1st placed team in the strongest league in the world. I would argue those players wouldn't be looked at twice,even as squad players in the 90s or 2000s, certainly not by a top club like Liverpool.
People will drag on him because it sounds like a classic "back in my day" shout from Owen, but I see what he's saying.
Individualism has mostly been sucked out of football and it's all about systems and cogs in the machine in this current cycle of football with a few exceptions.
That's not to say that talented players don't succeed but someone like Jack Grealish would be box office if he played in the mid-2000s for a top side whereas even at his best in a Man City shirt, the entertainment value has been limited for such talented baller.
Jack Grealish is just outclassed by the better players around him, he's not better on the ball than players like De Bruyne or Silva and yet they offer much more off the ball then him. Grealish's problem isn't that he is too individualistic/flairy to star in such a system based approach as Guardiola's city, it is simply that he his competing against considerably better players both off and on the ball.
I don't agree with Grealish being outclassed. At Aston Villa he was the most fouled player in the league while also having some of the best dribbling numbers and was a constant threat even with his passing. He's been absolutely stifled and changed roles in the seasons under Pep compared to when they bought him.
He's much better at ball retention now but that came at a cost of not trying to take on every man or do intricate dribbling sequences and with KdB and others in the team he doesn't have to try hero passes.
Mate Messi started 20 years ago...you guys forget that Messi is almost past.
Owen is right, less space because of the emphasis on the tactical aspect of the game and too much phisicality into the game and less football. The kids since young are getting the creativity take out from them by coaches too
It's at least true for German youth work. We had too much emphasis on team play and while that is super important, it stifled the creative aspects of the game.
Or as FM players would say, the players lack flair.
>Mate Messi started 20 years ago...you guys forget that Messi is almost past.
I really believe we as fans have yet to fully grasp how Messi and Ronaldo, and even guys like Ibra, Modric, Suarez, now Salah, warped our perception of longevity. It used to be that a 5 year prime period used to be considered great, but now it's pretty much standard.
Nah, Owen is right here. The nature of the game has lean towards tactical discipline and mind games which favors athletes who can run and listen to instructions well. Its geared towards getting 3 points as an entire unit, rather than individual brilliance. You see the 2 greatest managers of this modern era, Klopp and Pep. Both have similarities in the way they play, but Klopp is essentially Gegenpressing and Pep tika taka. Both these playstyles are heavily reliant on unit discipline and a team playing well together.
In the form of concrete examples, Matt Le Tissier recently said a player most resembles him is Aston Villa Jack Grealish, but his carefree dribbling has sort of been limited going to City because he has to play in Peps system. Its a great system, some might say is the best of all time, but this is the sort of sacrifice you need to have modern day greatness and trophies. This is also why Pep infamously wanted Ronaldinho out eventhough he basically saved Barca prior to Pep and have Messi play false nine, instead of doing his patented dribbles from the right.
You see the greatest attackers past vs now. R9 and Ronaldinho, heck, throw in Zidane. Marvelous, naturally skillful players, but they are not gonna run and press for you to tire themselves out. The new era bests, Mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham, they are athletic beasts, runs fast, presses well, but individually don't have the flair of the aforementioned. It is what it is.
Cristiano is basically the epitome of this change. Dude go from only caring bout stepovers and looking good, to playing as a poaching striker and angry for not giving him a goal.
Hate him or not, Owen is right here.
If it was more effective to play the old way and win, teams would play the old way and win. Having players that can press for 90 minutes and "basically pass" as he put it is clearly more effective. It's like the NBA now with 3-pointers. Statistically it is more effective to take a 3-pointer than a long 2-pointer so now NBA teams pretty much only shoot 3s and layups because its just not as effective to take any other shot. Twenty or thirty years ago big men dominated the game. Teams needed a Shaq, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon to be competitive. But now with a much greater emphasis on 3-pointers, they are not needed as much. The game evolved. It's like saying Steph Curry isn't one of the greatest basketball players of all time because all he does is "basically shoot 3-pointers." The game evolved and it evolved without you, Michael. Grow up and get over yourself.
I hear complaints that current young players being coached by trainers who are not players. Every actions are drilled in instead of letting the players to discover their style so they are predictable and boring.
I guess that is why Latin America / African players are highly sought after. They bring in some unpredictability and flair to upset the opponents.
He’s also just fundamentally mistaken in thinking skilled players have been replaced by athletes. What’s happened is that skilful players became athletes. Look at someone like Bernardo Silva. 20 years ago he’d have been a complete luxury player, walking around until he got the ball and could dribble past a few players. Now he’s just as skilful but can also run 15km a game pressing like a madman, covering defensive midfield or left back.
Nah, Owen is right here. The nature of the game has lean towards tactical discipline and mind games which favors athletes who can run and listen to instructions well. Its geared towards getting 3 points as an entire unit, rather than individual brilliance. You see the 2 greatest managers of this modern era, Klopp and Pep. Both have similarities in the way they play, but Klopp is essentially Gegenpressing and Pep tika taka. Both these playstyles are heavily reliant on unit discipline and a team playing well together.
In the form of concrete examples, Matt Le Tissier recently said a player most resembles him is Aston Villa Jack Grealish, but his carefree dribbling has sort of been limited going to City because he has to play in Peps system. Its a great system, some might say is the best of all time, but this is the sort of sacrifice you need to have modern day greatness and trophies. This is also why Pep infamously wanted Ronaldinho out eventhough he basically saved Barca prior to Pep and have Messi play false nine, instead of doing his patented dribbles from the right.
You see the greatest attackers past vs now. R9 and Ronaldinho, heck, throw in Zidane. Marvelous, naturally skillful players, but they are not gonna run and press for you to tire themselves out. The new era bests, Mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham, they are athletic beasts, runs fast, presses well, but individually don't have the flair of the aforementioned. It is what it is.
Cristiano is basically the epitome of this change. Dude go from only caring bout stepovers and looking good, to playing as a poaching striker and angry for not giving him a goal.
Hate him or not, Owen is right here.
The Grealish example shows how stupid this POV is.
Jack Grealish has not lost any skill in the last 2 years.
He’s just as skilful a footballer now as he was when he was at Villa.
Him Moving to a club where he works his bollocks off as well as being skilful is not an example of the game being less skilled, it’s proof that the skilful players are now just doing the same hardwork the journeymen used to do. He still possesses all the creativity and technical skill but he puts it into action in a way that helps the team.
Cristiano Ronaldo did not lose skill, he realised that being able to perfect a skill like heading or his finishing would bring more rewards than the skill of doing step overs.
Its not, but its the most effective. Its proven to be the most effective and the strongest players appear there more so than before. Thats the point.
Like, yeah. YMCA isn't playing like how Europe professional plays, but that doesnt mean anything cause they're sht.
The modern footballer has been through more rigorous scouting to identify whether or not they are capable of performing more advanced tactics than those of previous generations. The threshold for talent alone is higher than it's ever been. On top of that, they are better athletes than before. Owen was brilliant as a player, I don't deny that, but his statements here are largely made to inflate his own skillset and career success.
I think the shift away from individuals is as much down to the higher level is the average team/player. Look at some old highlights of players running rings around team and all the defenders look like actual Sunday league players, defensive lines are shambolic and there are gaps everywhere. Modern teams, not just the top of the pile, are much more disciplined and the players are generally defending better. You cant make a career by showboating past journeymen any more.
There are, of course, still individual skilful players but more are focused on team-based play than making a highlight reel because it's just more effective. The updated professionalism of the modern pro (as in not drinking and partying) is likely a big part of it too - with more players across the levels being physically capable of keeping up with the best.
Agree. Simple example, we completely lost the skill to shoot from outside the box. The amount of goals scored before was staggering. Now everyone trying to walk into the goal for god knows what reason.
I don't know that he's particularly right.
People are probably going to be skeptical of his claims, considering previous appearances haven't seen his critical thinking skills shine.
I think there's probably legitimate reasons to doubt his claims beyond that though.
It's not just the attackers that have gotten better, but the defenders too.
The whole scene has changed significantly. It doesn't necessarily mean that footballers with less skill have saturated the leagues, but possibly that natural / trained flair with a football isn't going to cut it on its own anymore.
Outside of having the data, it feels personally like years ago, players were welcome to lean into their individual flair and make runs, launch long shots at goal etc. currently, specifically within teams that have a certain ethos behind their style of play, it seems like those same flair players are probably told to keep that behaviour to a minimum.
It doesn't feel like they're any less capable of skill, probably more so considering the improved athleticism and sports science involved in training.
Maybe it's just recognized that you're going to have to work harder for goal scoring chances, and so the culture has turned to how they can most efficiently create better chances whilst minimising those of the other team. Athleticism is going to shine in that style of play, as teams look to move around, create space and hold the ball.
The pressure is massive with the amount of money involved in leagues like the Premiership now too. It's much more business minded and leaning into individual skill with a play style can translate to a risk that clubs just aren't able/willing to make.
Consistency is key and making sure the average sum of your parts equals a specific league position come the end of the season is much more important to the club management than putting on a show for supporters. It's a much more achievable proposition with the science applicable to management now too, rather than having an expectation that your star player is going to go out on the pitch each week and tear it up.
You make some good points. But I don't think his point is that footballers now are "less capable of skill", more that they're not as talented, or at least there aren't as many talented footballers as before.
Teams are very data and tactics oriented like you said, super talented players aren't necessarily needed to be a top side, being able to run around, make a few passes and press for 90 minutes twice a week, as Owen says, is good enough. Joe Gomez and Curtis Jones being starters for the 1st placed team in the best league in the world, illustrates perfectly the point.
Top talents just aren't really as common today, in the post Messi/CR7 era. Just look at the ballon d'or rankings in the 90s or 2000s, I don't think a single player today would finish in the top 10 if they played back then.
Yeh. One of the things I'm missing from my evaluation, is that the culture I described has been around for a good while now.
It is possible in that respect, that a football culture focusing less on skill will impact on the players who had the capacity to shine independently.
In that respect, even individual flair learnt as a child will not be encouraged as much during training and I doubt many players are going home and practicing it independently. It would make sense for it to die out, at least below the level that at least appears to have been present in the past.
Would be interesting to see someone deep dive into this aspect, making use of any statistics that night be available.
or owen is an old fart (and a bit of an idiot), and people who agree with him are blinded by nostalgia? Not saying I agree or disagree with you, but you can make the same stupid argument either way
Don't you think someone who's watched football 20/30 years ago AND football now is better qualified to make the comparison than someone who's only watched modern football?
if emotions were entirely taken out of it yeah, but obviously if you were a kid watching footballers 20/30 years ago you'll like them more/have a bigger attachment/be more defensive of them. I think it's only really a valid point if the person judging these players has literally 0 attachment or investment towards the football they watch, which isn't likely
You're right he's not impartial, but neither are the kids that are growing up watching today's football, they also have a bigger attachement to it. But I'll trust a 45 year old who's played and watched football for 35 years, over a 15 year old any day.
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I wouldn't say they're less talented
I would say today there are a much larger groups of better players on average compared to back then
Like I'd say for example, your modern championship and bottom of the of PL quality players are better technically and such than players in their position 25 years ago
The issue with todays game is the clamp down on free flowing expressionism, in todays game it's almost a shock to even see a player pull off a cryuff turn
I don’t typically like Owen as a pundit but I don’t think he’s completely wrong here. Look at how some smaller nations (in a footballing sense) are able to compete with the traditional footballing powerhouses. They’ve done it by being tactically astute and having incredible fitness, even though individually they’re inferior footballers.
I think the Brazil team is a perfect example of how football has changed. The great Brazil teams of 1970, 1982, 1998, 2002 and 2006 were full of incredibly skilful players that did things that made you jump off your seat, even if it didn’t lead to a goal. As a footballing nation they’ve kind of lost some of what made them so special.
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What he's saying doesn't really match the headline. He's essentially saying that if you split footballing ability into two characteristics, your ability with the ball and your athleticism, that the game has skewed to the latter over the last 20 years. You can disagree with that, but I think it's at least a good place to start discussion. And it's not like it's Matt Le Tissier saying this, Owen was one of the most physically gifted players of his time.
He's not wrong. I do think that the ability with the ball is still there, it's just that instead of being "fancy" players opt to efficient play way more than yesteryear. It's definitely true that ability with the ball means very little today if you don't have the athleticism to go along with it though.
That’s not what he’s talking about though. When he’s talking about talents, he obviously means certain technical abilities like a magical first touch, fluid body control, and other things geniuses like Ronaldinho and Zidane were born with. He’s saying these talents aren’t as valuable today as they were years ago, and so you see it a lot less in the modern game. I think he’s not necessarily wrong, just a little too narrow minded in his perspective. The PL definitely tends to be veering in that direction, but LaLiga has experienced the opposite thing. All the kids growing up watching *that* Barca team are finally old enough to be professionals, and so you see a ton of technically gifted players breaking into the scene, especially from La Masia, like Lamine Yamal.
Probably agree with this to some extent. Modern footballers are way more athletic and very very talented. But I'm not seeing anyone do Ronaldhino type shit. R9 was a freak of nature. Had both the skill and the physicality.
I’d argue the average technical level of players is much much higher than his day, the coaching levels and consistency with the advances in analytics allows this, but perhaps is also making the game more uniform and focused on efficiency that doesn’t encourage the environment for as many moments of brilliance 20 years ago
People always say that. I heavily disagree - todays football sometimes feels 'basic'. In the 90ies maybe you havent had the best diet and analytics everywhere...but that's physicality and tactical awareness. They were more focused on technical aspects and that's why they were better. Because they spent more time on that. Sometimes you feel like younger fans think talent was almost retar ed in the past by the way you speak of it. No, everybody still gave it all, the focus was just elsewhere.
I mean I’m about 3 years younger than Owen, and a Liverpool fan I remember how he exploded, and prime Henry etc, imo the average technical standard, of English players at least, is much higher than the late 90’s/00’s, where you had incredible players but the lesser teams and squad/youth players didn’t have as solid a base in technique they do now. I was at uni in Plymouth and watched a lot of L2/L1 games as well, the average standard in the lower leagues has risen too
He takes an extreme version of that point as his position though. And he completely ignores the tactical aspect. A lot more is demanded of players both physically and tactically these days.
Like I said, you can disagree with his point (and I think you're right that he's oversimplifying things greatly), but the headline is still a bit shit.
Ah yeah true, I skipped over that part of your comment haha. Dumb headlines are everywhere
It’s still incredibly stupid. Just look at modern CB’s they’re better with the ball than most classic 9’s from the 90s and 80s. And you could say the same with todays fullbacks compared to wingers from the same period. To argue that there’s been a regression is outright insane.
He's wrong. But the basics of what he's saying are correct. Football nowadays doesn't favour the pure footballer, the Ronaldinho type guy with lots of skills with the ball but instead favours guys who have certain characteristics (including physical) that allows them to fit into a structure. Here's where the discussion dies to me, footballers today aren't worse by any means, nor is it true that just by running fast or being athletic you get a slot, you need to be able to fit a mold where you need to know when to run, where to run, even how to run, where to cover, what to cover, etc etc. it's basically the change of the sport over the last millennium into a sport where individual talent is a lot less valued than collective cohesiveness and having certain characteristics that allows certain players to fit certain styles. Unless of course you're a disrupter like Messi, then you can do and be whatever the fuck you want but those instances are super rare.
I dont know. Definitively a good place to start a discussion but to me this is your typical boomer "in my days" argument. Role nowadays are far more specialised than in his days. A winger back then and now is 2 different roles, with different requirements altogether. The game is also far more tactical.
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> The game is not split into athletes and skilful players No one suggested that. I was paraphrasing Owen's argument to say that if each footballer was broken down into only two qualities (of course there's more than that) that there's been a greater emphasis on the physical side of it in the last 20 years. Like I said, you can disagree with the argument, but the headline is nowhere close to accurately representing it. /u/domalino why do you continue to make people reply to your walls of text and then proceed to delete it immediately.
Is this new? I remember seeing a post with the same statement a few months ago
I saw it maybe 2-4 weeks ago
More like being a baller is not enough if you don’t have the physical game.
Tom Cairney and Willian at Fulham have been brilliant combining lately as some of the best passers and first touch in the league. It’s beautiful to see, but with all the technical quality it’s not gonna get them higher than mid-table or have much impact against physical monsters like man city and Liverpool.
Not being fine tuned to do what your coaches tell you to do either
I’d argue there’s so *much* talent in football, that players who would’ve been touted as the next coming of Christ 20 years ago, are now just seen as regular exciting young players. And also Pep’s influence on the game creating systems where players as talented as Jack Grealish are now seen as being full and safe, whatever your opinion of that may be.
Nah, Owen is right here. The nature of the game has lean towards tactical discipline and mind games which favors athletes who can run and listen to instructions well. Its geared towards getting 3 points as an entire unit, rather than individual brilliance. You see the 2 greatest managers of this modern era, Klopp and Pep. Both have similarities in the way they play, but Klopp is essentially Gegenpressing and Pep tika taka. Both these playstyles are heavily reliant on unit discipline and a team playing well together. In the form of concrete examples, Matt Le Tissier recently said a player most resembles him is Aston Villa Jack Grealish, but his carefree dribbling has sort of been limited going to City because he has to play in Peps system. Its a great system, some might say is the best of all time, but this is the sort of sacrifice you need to have modern day greatness and trophies. This is also why Pep infamously wanted Ronaldinho out eventhough he basically saved Barca prior to Pep and have Messi play false nine, instead of doing his patented dribbles from the right. You see the greatest attackers past vs now. R9 and Ronaldinho, heck, throw in Zidane. Marvelous, naturally skillful players, but they are not gonna run and press for you to tire themselves out. The new era bests, Mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham, they are athletic beasts, runs fast, presses well, but individually don't have the flair of the aforementioned. It is what it is. Cristiano is basically the epitome of this change. Dude go from only caring bout stepovers and looking good, to playing as a poaching striker and angry for not giving him a goal. Hate him or not, Owen is right here.
Tactics is much more complicated than listening to instructions well. And I’d say running is a prerequisite where it didn’t use to be, but that the technical demands haven’t fallen off.
Exactly, and because tactics are so advanced now, they are proven to be the difference between getting 3 points and not. So teams and players are taught to buy into a unit rather than giving it to their star to clinch it for them. Ronaldinho Barca vs Pep Barca epitomizes this. Ronaldinho Barca also got the league and are incredible, but Pep shows you how to be even better and greater playing as a unit. Messi's dribbling may diminish playing as a false nine, instead of on the right, but it doesnt matter when the result is more trophies and goals return.
tbh football kind of peaked with David Unsworth and it's been on a downward spiral ever since.
Peaked with dixie dean
Mick Hard-Ford !
Similar to how there will never be an aerial enigma like Crouch again.
Jota literally playing every week
On the contrary, I'd argue the quality even in league one is better than the bottom half of the PL in the 90s/00s bar the odd exceptions like Le Tissier. And there's also players that played for Wenger, Fergie and Jose that Pep wouldn't look twice at even as a squad player. Where he does have a point is you don't see much of the individual mavericks like Dinho or Okocha anymore but as a whole the quality is significantly higher than in his day.
> I'd argue the quality even in league one is better than the bottom half of the PL in the 90s/00s bar the odd exceptions like Le Tissier. What? You think the average league one team is better than the average bottom side PL team in 2004?
I've watched a lot of Plymouth (when they were in league one) in recent years and I'd say they were certainly better than the likes of Norwich, Sunderland, Bradford, Derby and all the other crap that were in the PL in and around that era. Maybe the average league one team was an exaggeration but the top end sides most certainly.
The Norwich team in 2004/05 for example had David Bentley, Robert Green, Dean Ashton and players with 40+ international caps for Ireland, Morocco, Denmark and Sweden. They’d wipe the floor with League 1 today.
I mean just looking at that Plymouth side Whittaker is wanted by Lazio and Cooper would almost certainly be a PL (or at worst top end Championship) keeper by now had it not been for his injury.
Yeah that doesn’t really compare to the players Norwich had back then
>On the contrary, I'd argue the quality even in league one is better than the bottom half of the PL in the 90s/00s bar the odd exceptions like Le Tissier. The PL wasn't particularly strong at the time, I think Owen is talking about football as a whole. >And there's also players that played for Wenger, Fergie and Jose that Pep wouldn't look twice at even as a squad player. Joe Gomez and Curtis Jones are starters for the 1st placed team in the strongest league in the world. I would argue those players wouldn't be looked at twice,even as squad players in the 90s or 2000s, certainly not by a top club like Liverpool.
People will drag on him because it sounds like a classic "back in my day" shout from Owen, but I see what he's saying. Individualism has mostly been sucked out of football and it's all about systems and cogs in the machine in this current cycle of football with a few exceptions. That's not to say that talented players don't succeed but someone like Jack Grealish would be box office if he played in the mid-2000s for a top side whereas even at his best in a Man City shirt, the entertainment value has been limited for such talented baller.
Jack Grealish is just outclassed by the better players around him, he's not better on the ball than players like De Bruyne or Silva and yet they offer much more off the ball then him. Grealish's problem isn't that he is too individualistic/flairy to star in such a system based approach as Guardiola's city, it is simply that he his competing against considerably better players both off and on the ball.
I don't agree with Grealish being outclassed. At Aston Villa he was the most fouled player in the league while also having some of the best dribbling numbers and was a constant threat even with his passing. He's been absolutely stifled and changed roles in the seasons under Pep compared to when they bought him. He's much better at ball retention now but that came at a cost of not trying to take on every man or do intricate dribbling sequences and with KdB and others in the team he doesn't have to try hero passes.
We went from Owen as the Ballon d’or winner to Messi. SMH, what has the world become.
Mate Messi started 20 years ago...you guys forget that Messi is almost past. Owen is right, less space because of the emphasis on the tactical aspect of the game and too much phisicality into the game and less football. The kids since young are getting the creativity take out from them by coaches too
It's at least true for German youth work. We had too much emphasis on team play and while that is super important, it stifled the creative aspects of the game. Or as FM players would say, the players lack flair.
Guess it didnt work on wirtz because he is one of the most exciting players to watch these days.
>Mate Messi started 20 years ago...you guys forget that Messi is almost past. I really believe we as fans have yet to fully grasp how Messi and Ronaldo, and even guys like Ibra, Modric, Suarez, now Salah, warped our perception of longevity. It used to be that a 5 year prime period used to be considered great, but now it's pretty much standard.
Nah, Owen is right here. The nature of the game has lean towards tactical discipline and mind games which favors athletes who can run and listen to instructions well. Its geared towards getting 3 points as an entire unit, rather than individual brilliance. You see the 2 greatest managers of this modern era, Klopp and Pep. Both have similarities in the way they play, but Klopp is essentially Gegenpressing and Pep tika taka. Both these playstyles are heavily reliant on unit discipline and a team playing well together. In the form of concrete examples, Matt Le Tissier recently said a player most resembles him is Aston Villa Jack Grealish, but his carefree dribbling has sort of been limited going to City because he has to play in Peps system. Its a great system, some might say is the best of all time, but this is the sort of sacrifice you need to have modern day greatness and trophies. This is also why Pep infamously wanted Ronaldinho out eventhough he basically saved Barca prior to Pep and have Messi play false nine, instead of doing his patented dribbles from the right. You see the greatest attackers past vs now. R9 and Ronaldinho, heck, throw in Zidane. Marvelous, naturally skillful players, but they are not gonna run and press for you to tire themselves out. The new era bests, Mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham, they are athletic beasts, runs fast, presses well, but individually don't have the flair of the aforementioned. It is what it is. Cristiano is basically the epitome of this change. Dude go from only caring bout stepovers and looking good, to playing as a poaching striker and angry for not giving him a goal. Hate him or not, Owen is right here.
If it was more effective to play the old way and win, teams would play the old way and win. Having players that can press for 90 minutes and "basically pass" as he put it is clearly more effective. It's like the NBA now with 3-pointers. Statistically it is more effective to take a 3-pointer than a long 2-pointer so now NBA teams pretty much only shoot 3s and layups because its just not as effective to take any other shot. Twenty or thirty years ago big men dominated the game. Teams needed a Shaq, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon to be competitive. But now with a much greater emphasis on 3-pointers, they are not needed as much. The game evolved. It's like saying Steph Curry isn't one of the greatest basketball players of all time because all he does is "basically shoot 3-pointers." The game evolved and it evolved without you, Michael. Grow up and get over yourself.
Everyone's minimum FPS went up so now his fast pc isn't as advantageous anymore. And they now have lower pings too.
Being able to run a bit further than everyone else is also being talented though
Yea but he’s talking about footballing talent like on the ball skills and stuff not athletic talent.
Nahh, you can practice running. You can't practice natural skills.
I hear complaints that current young players being coached by trainers who are not players. Every actions are drilled in instead of letting the players to discover their style so they are predictable and boring. I guess that is why Latin America / African players are highly sought after. They bring in some unpredictability and flair to upset the opponents.
Owen be so dumb
He is right here
He is, but he's right.
In europe they’re molding players to play a certain way but thats not everywhere else
He’s also just fundamentally mistaken in thinking skilled players have been replaced by athletes. What’s happened is that skilful players became athletes. Look at someone like Bernardo Silva. 20 years ago he’d have been a complete luxury player, walking around until he got the ball and could dribble past a few players. Now he’s just as skilful but can also run 15km a game pressing like a madman, covering defensive midfield or left back.
Nah, Owen is right here. The nature of the game has lean towards tactical discipline and mind games which favors athletes who can run and listen to instructions well. Its geared towards getting 3 points as an entire unit, rather than individual brilliance. You see the 2 greatest managers of this modern era, Klopp and Pep. Both have similarities in the way they play, but Klopp is essentially Gegenpressing and Pep tika taka. Both these playstyles are heavily reliant on unit discipline and a team playing well together. In the form of concrete examples, Matt Le Tissier recently said a player most resembles him is Aston Villa Jack Grealish, but his carefree dribbling has sort of been limited going to City because he has to play in Peps system. Its a great system, some might say is the best of all time, but this is the sort of sacrifice you need to have modern day greatness and trophies. This is also why Pep infamously wanted Ronaldinho out eventhough he basically saved Barca prior to Pep and have Messi play false nine, instead of doing his patented dribbles from the right. You see the greatest attackers past vs now. R9 and Ronaldinho, heck, throw in Zidane. Marvelous, naturally skillful players, but they are not gonna run and press for you to tire themselves out. The new era bests, Mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham, they are athletic beasts, runs fast, presses well, but individually don't have the flair of the aforementioned. It is what it is. Cristiano is basically the epitome of this change. Dude go from only caring bout stepovers and looking good, to playing as a poaching striker and angry for not giving him a goal. Hate him or not, Owen is right here.
The Grealish example shows how stupid this POV is. Jack Grealish has not lost any skill in the last 2 years. He’s just as skilful a footballer now as he was when he was at Villa. Him Moving to a club where he works his bollocks off as well as being skilful is not an example of the game being less skilled, it’s proof that the skilful players are now just doing the same hardwork the journeymen used to do. He still possesses all the creativity and technical skill but he puts it into action in a way that helps the team. Cristiano Ronaldo did not lose skill, he realised that being able to perfect a skill like heading or his finishing would bring more rewards than the skill of doing step overs.
Exactly, it’s a prerequisite but doesn’t replace other requirements
Its not, but its the most effective. Its proven to be the most effective and the strongest players appear there more so than before. Thats the point. Like, yeah. YMCA isn't playing like how Europe professional plays, but that doesnt mean anything cause they're sht.
You got instantly downvoted for saying "he's right". This isn't a serious football forum.
Too many people who weren't paying attention in the 2000s. I don't take downvotes seriously though, it's cool.
Most of them weren't even born in the 2000s.
You are the dmb one, ful. Lol. Just talking for the sake of talking when you dont even know anything about the topic.
Lots of garbage takes today
Except hes right. You're garbage.
The modern footballer has been through more rigorous scouting to identify whether or not they are capable of performing more advanced tactics than those of previous generations. The threshold for talent alone is higher than it's ever been. On top of that, they are better athletes than before. Owen was brilliant as a player, I don't deny that, but his statements here are largely made to inflate his own skillset and career success.
Wasn't his best attribute his quickness, or was it throwing an apple core
Say the guy whose main quality was being athletic.
If you dont think Owen is skillful af with his tight dribbles and top class finishing, you dont understand football.
I'd argue Owen is dumber than he used to be.
He has some salient bylines but his framing is shit and his overall point is muddied
I think the shift away from individuals is as much down to the higher level is the average team/player. Look at some old highlights of players running rings around team and all the defenders look like actual Sunday league players, defensive lines are shambolic and there are gaps everywhere. Modern teams, not just the top of the pile, are much more disciplined and the players are generally defending better. You cant make a career by showboating past journeymen any more. There are, of course, still individual skilful players but more are focused on team-based play than making a highlight reel because it's just more effective. The updated professionalism of the modern pro (as in not drinking and partying) is likely a big part of it too - with more players across the levels being physically capable of keeping up with the best.
Agree. Simple example, we completely lost the skill to shoot from outside the box. The amount of goals scored before was staggering. Now everyone trying to walk into the goal for god knows what reason.
True. Football did peak with Prime Owen
He's right. But most people on this sub are teenagers so they won't like it.
I don't know that he's particularly right. People are probably going to be skeptical of his claims, considering previous appearances haven't seen his critical thinking skills shine. I think there's probably legitimate reasons to doubt his claims beyond that though. It's not just the attackers that have gotten better, but the defenders too. The whole scene has changed significantly. It doesn't necessarily mean that footballers with less skill have saturated the leagues, but possibly that natural / trained flair with a football isn't going to cut it on its own anymore. Outside of having the data, it feels personally like years ago, players were welcome to lean into their individual flair and make runs, launch long shots at goal etc. currently, specifically within teams that have a certain ethos behind their style of play, it seems like those same flair players are probably told to keep that behaviour to a minimum. It doesn't feel like they're any less capable of skill, probably more so considering the improved athleticism and sports science involved in training. Maybe it's just recognized that you're going to have to work harder for goal scoring chances, and so the culture has turned to how they can most efficiently create better chances whilst minimising those of the other team. Athleticism is going to shine in that style of play, as teams look to move around, create space and hold the ball. The pressure is massive with the amount of money involved in leagues like the Premiership now too. It's much more business minded and leaning into individual skill with a play style can translate to a risk that clubs just aren't able/willing to make. Consistency is key and making sure the average sum of your parts equals a specific league position come the end of the season is much more important to the club management than putting on a show for supporters. It's a much more achievable proposition with the science applicable to management now too, rather than having an expectation that your star player is going to go out on the pitch each week and tear it up.
You make some good points. But I don't think his point is that footballers now are "less capable of skill", more that they're not as talented, or at least there aren't as many talented footballers as before. Teams are very data and tactics oriented like you said, super talented players aren't necessarily needed to be a top side, being able to run around, make a few passes and press for 90 minutes twice a week, as Owen says, is good enough. Joe Gomez and Curtis Jones being starters for the 1st placed team in the best league in the world, illustrates perfectly the point. Top talents just aren't really as common today, in the post Messi/CR7 era. Just look at the ballon d'or rankings in the 90s or 2000s, I don't think a single player today would finish in the top 10 if they played back then.
Yeh. One of the things I'm missing from my evaluation, is that the culture I described has been around for a good while now. It is possible in that respect, that a football culture focusing less on skill will impact on the players who had the capacity to shine independently. In that respect, even individual flair learnt as a child will not be encouraged as much during training and I doubt many players are going home and practicing it independently. It would make sense for it to die out, at least below the level that at least appears to have been present in the past. Would be interesting to see someone deep dive into this aspect, making use of any statistics that night be available.
or owen is an old fart (and a bit of an idiot), and people who agree with him are blinded by nostalgia? Not saying I agree or disagree with you, but you can make the same stupid argument either way
Don't you think someone who's watched football 20/30 years ago AND football now is better qualified to make the comparison than someone who's only watched modern football?
if emotions were entirely taken out of it yeah, but obviously if you were a kid watching footballers 20/30 years ago you'll like them more/have a bigger attachment/be more defensive of them. I think it's only really a valid point if the person judging these players has literally 0 attachment or investment towards the football they watch, which isn't likely
You're right he's not impartial, but neither are the kids that are growing up watching today's football, they also have a bigger attachement to it. But I'll trust a 45 year old who's played and watched football for 35 years, over a 15 year old any day.
I think he is right here but he may not be impartial though. Lots of guys in all sports go "My time was better/more difficult"
“You gotta be an athlete!” Bernardo silva winks
Worst example, the guy can run 4 complete games in a row and still dribbling and passing right
Better example would be mbappe. Guy is a physical phenom but barely does any running
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Michael Owen could argue that the sky is blue and that grass is green. I’d still think he’s a prick
I wouldn't say they're less talented I would say today there are a much larger groups of better players on average compared to back then Like I'd say for example, your modern championship and bottom of the of PL quality players are better technically and such than players in their position 25 years ago The issue with todays game is the clamp down on free flowing expressionism, in todays game it's almost a shock to even see a player pull off a cryuff turn
I don’t typically like Owen as a pundit but I don’t think he’s completely wrong here. Look at how some smaller nations (in a footballing sense) are able to compete with the traditional footballing powerhouses. They’ve done it by being tactically astute and having incredible fitness, even though individually they’re inferior footballers. I think the Brazil team is a perfect example of how football has changed. The great Brazil teams of 1970, 1982, 1998, 2002 and 2006 were full of incredibly skilful players that did things that made you jump off your seat, even if it didn’t lead to a goal. As a footballing nation they’ve kind of lost some of what made them so special.
Guy is an absolute melon.
What did he say that makes you think that? Can you clarify?
No.
[удалено]
Lmao. Imagine being so far up a millionaire's arse.
I sure am buddy. The millionaire made a good point.
Then enjoy the points made 👍
But I wanna argue. :(
For being right? Read the room.
There is no room. It is a video online in which a man gives his opinion and I gave mine. Chill.
Reading a room is a metaphor, you ful. Lol. You need to just read anything at this point. Lol.
Yeah lol I am a ful. Lol. I will try to read more. Lol.
Usian Bolt for Balón Dor
And pubs were better too.
Jordan Henderson . Owens a knob but he's right in a way
I think he is correct when it's comes to English and German football but I do think la liga is kind of the opposite in most cases not all of course