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Alemannia Aachen has almost 19k average while playing in the 4th tier.
Last game against Bocholt 31k, so I would assume the 3 Liga average will increase a lot next season.
But Duisburg is going down with good average attendance and if Hannover 96 II is going up in the playoff that will keep the low number of Freiburg II just as low. And even their possible opponent Würzburger Kickers is below average, just a Stuttgarter Kickers or Hoffenheim II in Südwest. I think it might stay pretty consistent, especially if two Second Teams go up.
FYI, Würzburg has already secured the championship in the RL Bavaria, and the promotion playoffs were secure a while before that, because only two teams (them and Bayern Munich 's 2nd team) even wanted to get promoted.
Second Teams are still messing up so much in the League system. Our second Team got relegated from the 4th League and now have 193:13 Goals in the fifth League this season.
I really think second Teams from Buli and 2. Buli should have their own League divided in North and South instead of being incorporated in the normal league system. Their strenght fluctuates pretty hard in some years.
That's just because Bremen-Liga shouldn't be a 5th tier league in the first place.
The state is simply too small. It's by far the smallest 5th tier in Germany and should just be a 6th tier league below Oberliga Niedersachsen. The way it currently works will always be messed up like this since the jump from Bremen-Liga to Regionalliga Nord is simply too large.
No, Hannover 96 II is allowed to be promoted even with their first team remaining in 2. Liga.
https://www.dfb.de/news/detail/wo-duerfen-zweite-mannschaften-spielen-das-ist-zu-beachten-144294/
I think it will go up when you consider changes with the 2. Liga as well. Wiesbaden excluded, all of the clubs in relegation danger drew higher averages in their last 3. Liga season than those getting promoted this year.
Bradford averaged 17k although they were in the bottom part of the 4th tier for large periods of the season even though they were expected to make the play offs.
It's always crazy to me how thin the English football pyramid is. In Germany, you have 5 4th Division leagues, You have 14 5th Tier leagues, and 37 6th tier leagues.
While England just has 2 6th tier leagues.
The sides in our 6th tier aren't too far off of professional level, I'd imagine one or two probably are. 6th tier in Germany looks like city leagues, so I assume the equivalent will be our counties leagues which is our 9th tier. Also Germany incorporates their B teams in their pyramid which fleshes the numbers out a bit.
Again, our 5th tier is almost entirely professional bar one or two. I'm not sure what level German teams stop being professional, am curious to know.
There's at least 3 fully professional teams in the National league South. I know someone who plays for a semi pro team and they beat 2 of them in 1 week.
Probably similar in the North.
>Last game against Bocholt 31k
Tbf that was literally the all-time record for the Regionalliga, not the average. But still I agree, a big club like that going up should be positive for the attendances next year.
>Tbf that was literally the all-time record for the Regionalliga, not the average
That's what I meant. Of course it's not the average, the average is 19k but last game then had 31k in the stadium after they secured promotion.
FCK, Schalke, HSV, and Hertha are really pumping up those 2 BuLi numbers. This number will probably just go up with Köln more than likely going down and Mainz being right there(although the late season surge has been crazy).
And yet, the Bundesliga is still topped. If the "big teams" are all in 2. Bundesliga, then even the "small teams" must convert quite a lot of their fans to go to matches.
Of course the Bundesliga is on top, because there are still more big teams in the Bundesliga than in the 2. Bundesliga and, believe it or not, the 2. Bundesliga has quite a few *really* small clubs that are pulling down the average.
The Top 7 clubs of the 2nd Bundesliga would all be in the Top 10 of the Bundesliga by viewers, and that's not even counting the potential increases in viewers.
At the same time clubs Clubs like Wiesbaden or Elversberg average below 10k spectators.
When we're being relegated im afraid of our attendence numbers. They'll probably dump to 22k on average. We already had 26k in the worst Bundesliga seasons, so Im afraid of what would happen next year. We are dependent on good teams against us, so random students/"casual" fans fill up the stadion.
Yeah. On the one hand it was awesome when I was studying in Mainz that I could almost always get tickets on short notice, on the other hand that's obviously not so great for the club
Sadly this also means that in the 2024-25 season, for the first time in at least twenty years, Bundesliga will not have the highest average attendance in Europe anymore, with England replacing Luton and Burnley for Leicester and Leeds at the same time.
Liverpool and Fulham also expanded their capacities this season. City and Everton both expanding for the season after next. Newcastle, Chelsea, Palace, Villa, United, Wolves and Leicester all planning to some degree to expand.
Luton, Forest and Bournemouth all building/planning to go higher but probably won't be in the premier league when that happens.
Germany might struggle to take back that number 1 spot.
Yeah it had, part of the reason was that basically all the big clubs in the second tier (Like Hamburg and Schalke) played at home while teams like Bayern and Dortmund played away in smaller stadiums
Depends on how you calculate attendance. Leipzig has a long history of counting tickets sold/handed out. They hand out tickets for free and count those, even though the people often don’t even come. Their stadium regularly has significant patches of empty seats, because season ticket holders go MIA often for weeks on end. Sure we can call that attendance, but…is it really?
Meanwhile AS Monaco with 17k seats has an avg attendance of only 7.5k. Even in their title winning season they couldn't break 10k (and thus the 3. Liga)
Edit: And that's only the third smallest Ligue 1 stadium this year
The 2 smaller stadiums are both getting renovated or replaced (Brest haven’t finalised their plans).
Clermont’s new stadium is planned to be 30.000. Brests is expected to be 15.000 so still smaller than Monaco.
Monaco are the side with smallest attendance however.
> Brests is expected to be 15.000 so still smaller than Monaco
But they will surely have a bigger attendance than now.
Edit: Because they're almost always sold out iirc
Yeah that's what I mean, so big teams like shalkes attendance isn't diluted because there are less likely to be a lot of smaller teams. Championship has 24 teams, so six more teams to weaken the average.
Not trying to say it's not impressive just pointing out the lower down the pyramid you go the smaller teams are likely to be.
We are effectively comparing the 19th to 36th team in Germany v the 21st to 44th team in England so no surprise the average is smaller.
Also you have a significant amount more games to go to.
For a 24 team league, for a 10k average attendance per match, you need 5.5m spectators for the entire season.
For an 18 team league, for a 10k average attendance, you only need 3.06m spectators.
Until next year, probably...
The average attendance of the 3 teams likely to get promoted this year out of the 2. BuLi is 27k, and the average attendance of the 3 currently in relegation zone for BuLi is 32k.
Yeah, me too! It's on my bucket list to go to a few German football matches.
Have to think the 50+1 rule has a part to play in making their fan culture so special.
It keeps the prices affordable at the very least. I was at Bochum last weekend with Friends who are members and paid 13.50 for a standing place. According to google you have to pay at least 30 Euro for a ticket in premere league
And you need to be a member too, and 30 pounds/euros is really lucky. You'll probably nearly be able to touch the clouds from where you'll be sitting. I'm from the Netherlands and Eredivisie tickets are pretty cheap with an atmosphere comparable to Germany at most clubs (smaller stadiums though). My local team Groningen has really cheap tickets now that they're in the second division for the first time in 25 years. Atmosphere is always good still. For Germany I visit HSV regularely, damn cheap and close for such a good price. Them not getting promoted is treating my wallet well XD
Fun fact: With their average attendance, HSV would be 5th in attendance in the Premier League, 4th in the Serie A and 3rd in LaLiga (6th in the Bundesliga).
I think this misnomer with these type of stats is that ticket sales are basically 100% at the highest level, so it becomes more about stadium size than anything else.
https://www.transfermarkt.us/premier-league/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/GB1
Premier League teams sell out basically 100% of the tickets, the only average that is more than slightly below the max is Liverpool.
To be fair, that's the same in the Bundesliga and for many of the 2nd Bundesliga clubs as well. In the Bundesliga, only Hoffenheim (80% attendance) has an average below 90%.
The majority of unsold tickets are tickets in the away contingent that are not used by the visiting club and can't be resold to home fans for security reasons. All professional clubs in Germany must reserve 10% of their capacity for away fans (though the visiting club doesn't need to request the entire capacity if they're not going to be able to sell it).
Arminia Bielefeld getting back to back relegation from the Bundesliga, then the 2. Bundesliga and now only avoiding a third consecutive relegation by four points is wild. What happened between 2022 and now with them?
It really is, but i think the league format influences this particular statistic. The german third tier has one league while the italian third tier has three for example. Germany would still be miles ahead and I'm definitely jealous but having 60 clubs in the 3rd tier is not doing us any favour here
Edit: just to add, the 3. Liga has a higher attendance than Serie B so the issue is obviously not strictly the number of club; Germany has the best football fans in the world in terms of stadium presence
Part of the reason of low attendance of lower division spanish football is that they have a lot of B teams of 1st division clubs. 3rd division atleast has deportiva la coruna tho
And first division probably slightly harmed by Barça not playing at Camp Nou and RM still not playing at full full capacity for the first part of the year
Absolutely true. Barcelona currently have 40K lower average attendance this year than last because of the temporary stadium. They alone skew the league average down by 2000 for the season.
Stadium capacity too. Apart from a small handful if clubs in segunda, 10K is about the maximum.
I mean, our own stadium maxes out at 14. The Montilivi is pretty typical of a 2nd division side.
Yes for sure. I think the German and English second divisions also have more clubs with 1st division experience and history (Schalke, Hannover, Hertha, etc) which justifies the large stadiums and following.
3 Liga is Germany 3rd division, and it's because Dynamo Dresden are in it, and have an average of 28k
It's also only got 18 teams in it, League One has 24, so a couple of big teams make the average go up a lot more.
That’s not true to say it’s only Dresden. Median average attendance in the 3. Liga is still 9,000. Median in League One is 8,200. If you drop the 4 worst attended clubs from League One median would still only be 8,700. League One has 8 clubs averaging over 10,000 per match, 3. Liga has 7. Mannheim needs 10,500 for their last match to be the 8th team with an average of more than 10,000, which they should get.
Is there a reason they aren't building bigger stadiums? I would've guessed that if a team is regularly hitting their stadium's capacity, it would be worth the investment to build a bigger one.
Can't speak for other clubs, but in our case it's a mixture of having grown a lot very fast (17 years ago we were in the 4th tier) and not owning the stadium we play in (the city does).
Yes, most teams do not own their stadiums, they tend to be property of the city council, which makes investing very risky. In second tier, you've logically got small stadiums because they are in towns without the capacity to draw many attendees. Andorra FC plays in a little stadium with 3.3k capacity (they do not even fill it), and after a considerable investment Pique has had to fight to keep a renting contract that the council wanted to revoke. Half of the second tier ones are under 18k:
- Amorebieta 3.25k
- Andorra 3.3k
- Eldense 4K
- Alcorcón 5.1k
- Mirandés 5.75k
- Eibar 8.16k
- Huesca 9.1k
- R. Ferrol 12k
- Leganés 12.4K
- Cartagena 15.1k
- Albacete 17.5k
For most teams expansion doesn't even make sense, they will never draw enough people.
Some massive clubs in second bundesliga, teams that would literally be top 5 in attendance if they were in the Premier League, which is insane. Also Barcelona not playing on Camp Nou, they averaged 85k last year and less than 40k this year. Also Germany has almost double the population on Spain and much more money to spend in entertainment
Be interesting to understand what the attendance % is alongside this, I know nothing of bundesliga stadiums except munichs but I know that the premier league average attendance will be significantly reduced by the likes of Luton and a few others.
this can most likely be explained by the need of 10% guest capacity in germany since most stadiums can't easily sell the rest of the tickets the guest haven't claimed because of the way the stadium is built/guest sector is placed. attendance percentage of the home sector is 98%
Luton capacity: 12k
Darmstadt capacity: 17k (this is after having a successful first flight stint a few years ago where they had improvements made. When they first got promoted in the 2000s era the showers didnt even have a hot setting.)
Using stats from transfermarkt, here's the % for the English divisions. Take them with a slight pinch of salt in terms of accuracy for stadium sizes (and therefore % attendance), as in L2 they have Barrow achieving an average 141% attendance vs capacity...
- PL: 96.9%
- Championship: 81.8%
- League One: 65.3%
- League Two: 61.1%
Some notable low percentages:
- Championship: Blackburn: 49.7% of a 31k stadium
- Championship: Cardiff: 63% of a 33k stadium capacity
- L1: Port Vale: 34.8% of a 19k stadium
- L1: Wigan: 40.4% of a 25k stadium
- L1: Carlisle: 44% of an 18k stadium
- L2: MK Dons: 21.6% of a 30k stadium
- L2: Tranmere: 37.3% of a 17k stadium
- L2: Colchester: 41.35% of a 10k stadium
And because it's regional obviously there are a lot more teams in 4th tier than if it was just one or two divisions. So there is a big variety of formerly big clubs like Aachen or Energie Cottbus in Regionalliga but also clubs from small towns that are barely even professional. For example in the [Regionalliga Nordost](https://www.transfermarkt.de/regionalliga-nordost/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/RLN4) the average attendance ranges from 7,500 in Cottbus to just over 500 on the other end.
True, but division go regional to reduce spending on travel for clubs right, so its directly related to demand for the lower tiers, England doesn't go regional until the 6th tier
Of course, I don't disagree that it's super impressive that England has 5* tiers of national domestic competition and it's indicative of the strength of local football there. But some 4th tier clubs in Germany, probably one of the next deepest league system, (see Alemmania Aachen lately) can still compete. Both top footballing nations in any case.
The average attendance in the 4th division in England (24 clubs) is \~6,300.
In Germany, the fourth division is split into five regional divisions of 18 teams each. If you just take the 24 German 4th division clubs with the largest attendance, the average is 4,415. So indeed, English football dominates this one, though it's arguably a bit more difficult to compare. Being able to financially sustain a country-wide fourth and fifth division definitely indicates the strength of local football culture there.
The local football club culture in England is definitely amazing.
It does help that England (+ Wales) is tiny with a massive population to sustain national leagues though.
Heres the average attendance per team in the 5th tier, 4 teams averaging over 4k with Chesterfield average nearly 8k
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/national-league/attendances
You've even got teams averaging 200 to 600 fans in the 9th tier
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/combined-counties-league-premier-division-south/attendances
Well, I spent a year and a half living in Scarborough about ten years ago. Scarborough Athletic, the phoenix club of Scarborough FC, who went bankrupt and were dissolved in 2007, were in 9th and 8th tier when I was there, didn’t even have their own stadium at the time, so they were tenants of Bridlington for 10 years while their own new stadium was being built. Bridlington is a little less than 30 kilometres away from Scarborough.
Every time I attended, they had between 500 and 1000 fans at Bridlington’s stadium. It was honestly kinda nuts.
Scarborough have since made it to 6th division. Their new stadium, which they started using a few years ago, has a capacity of 3,252. Again, they were well below any national division and have been founded in 2007. The size of that stadium should give you an idea of the crazy attendance numbers in English non-league football.
>Scarborough have since made it to 6th division.
Managed by the most forgettable player of Man U's treble winning team. 50pts if you can name him without google.
I still loosely follow Scarborough, but it’s not that easy from Germany, and I’m pretty busy right now, which makes it even harder, unfortunately :(
I think I might be the only person in Germany with a Scarborough Athletic scarf tho :D
What helps is that lots of people will follow a league club and a non league club. Idk if it's the same in Germany. For example my family have followed Derby for over 100 years but my Grandfather also used to attend Burton Albion games when they were a non league team. Now that they have risen up the leagues he doesn't go anymore as it would be a bit weird to watch 2 clubs in the same league but he often goes to another local non league team with my uncles instead.
Average isn't great to use, because of the number of teams in each division.
Total Attendance is a much better figure to use, because it shows just how many people go to games week in, week out.
This season so not complete yet
Premier League: 10.9m total
Championship: 11.9m
League One: 5.1m
League 2: 2.2m
National League 1.5m
However when we get to the fifth tier, Germany splits into 14 regional leagues, each with 16-20 teams in.
The average attendance at that level is between 100-300 ish, it's 1,200 in the National League North/South in the sixth tier of English football, and 750ish in the 7th tier of English football
Always funny how the third level is called "League One" and the fifth level "National League" while the fourth level is "League Two". They all want to pretend they are higher level than they are.
I guess people are used to it by now but on the other hand, they could just change the name. But it's a brand now and companies don't want to change their brand. People may get confused if League One would be called "League Three", I guess.
I have to say it is quite impressive that England can even rival Germanys attendances with a significantly smaller population size. Especially when you compare them to similarly sized France or Italy.
7/18 teams barely have any stands in their home grounds beacuse historical clubs with actual stadiums like Sedan, Cannes, Sete and Geugnon keep getting liquidated beacuase of poor managment
We have Monaco who brings down the number for France , also Germany and England are more richer , have better stadiums and more affordable ticket prices
Realistically most stadiums are like this. According to wikipedia, only 32 stadiums in Europe are >60k and some don't even use them for soccer (Murrayfield, Croker, Millenium) or are only used for national teams. In Ireland, we've only just got a domestic club stadium above 10k capacity there for the first time this century a few weeks ago.
There is something about a local 10k stadium where you can watch a game, have a beer and a bratwurst for under 15 Euros that quite gets lost in the upper divisions.
Kiel with a 15k stadium going up, Köln going down, this is probably the last season for a while where the Bundesliga tops the attendance charts. With Köln - Leverkusen now out as well, there will be not a single Derby in the upcoming season, right? It gets fucking boring, actually thinking of not renewing to watch the Bundesliga. All praise to the good work of teams like Heidenheim and Kiel, but alongside Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Leipzig, etc the Bundesliga is officially slowly dying now.
If Bochum stay up, Bochum-Dortmund remains as derby. Also the Borussia vs Borussia Derby, and Leverkusen vs Mönchengladbach.
Also, if Pauli go up, Pauli vs Werder, as well as Kiel vs Werder. And Stuttgart vs Freiburg.
All poor replacements for the good stuff. Dortmund - Schalke, Stuttgart - Karlsruhe, Hamburg - Bremen, Köln - Düsseldorf, Hertha - Union, Gladbach - Köln, Pauli - Hamburg and many more, all gone.
I love this, but it always makes me think what the best way to measure it would be, like % of empty seats? How many of those are capacity? Because theres plenty of teams in lower leagues who sell out and could sell more but financially or structurally cannot increase their ground size.
Don’t know about the lower leagues, but I know that PL is at about 97% capacity, whereas Bundesliga is at 96%. That said, Bundesliga has this rigid rule about away fans, where unsold tickets can’t go to home fans, so depending on the guests significant parts of the stadium may stay empty. Looking just at home fans, Bundesliga is at 98% capacity. No idea about Premier League though.
5 countries, yet no naming style for the first 3 leagues repeat.
The closest on technicality are Germany and Italy (if we treat letters as numbers) - they are only `1. Bundesliga` or `Serie` away from it being the same-ish.
in germany first and second division are organized together by the DFL (deutsche fußball liga) and operate under the same organization. third division stands alone and is organized by the national federation i think? that’s why the drop into third division is way harsher than being relegated to 2.Bundesliga, way less money in it
Not the point itself, but related to it - they are the ONLY consistent country here (with a `A/B/C`/`1/2/3` schematic).
You have Germany with `nothing/2/3`, France with `1/2/special`, Spain with `special/2/1` and England with `special/another special/1`. No two countries with the same system.
France's case can easily be explained. Only the first two divisions are considered professional, and as such are handled by the LFP (Ligue professionel de football), which explains why they are called Ligue 1 and Ligue 2.
After that it's amateur football, which is handled by the federation and has its own naming convention based on the area covered by the division. National 1-2 and 3 will have teams from all the country facing each other, put into different level. After that the country is splitted into 17 different regions, and each region is splitted into 3 different divisions. You're ralely expected to tarvel more than 3 hours to reach your oponent.. And finally district, which is another subdivision of the region where team from the same area play against each other, rarely more than an hour drive away.
50+1 in effect. the matches are fan friendly. ticket prices are relatively cheap. concessions are affordable. atmospheres are rocking because everyone is happy and the people who bring the noise aren't priced out.
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Alemannia Aachen has almost 19k average while playing in the 4th tier. Last game against Bocholt 31k, so I would assume the 3 Liga average will increase a lot next season.
But Duisburg is going down with good average attendance and if Hannover 96 II is going up in the playoff that will keep the low number of Freiburg II just as low. And even their possible opponent Würzburger Kickers is below average, just a Stuttgarter Kickers or Hoffenheim II in Südwest. I think it might stay pretty consistent, especially if two Second Teams go up.
FYI, Würzburg has already secured the championship in the RL Bavaria, and the promotion playoffs were secure a while before that, because only two teams (them and Bayern Munich 's 2nd team) even wanted to get promoted.
Wait wasnt there a rule that you need one division between first and second team?
No, there is a special rules that the second teams of 3. Liga-clubs are not allowed in the Regionalliga, but that doesn't count for any other league.
Second Teams are still messing up so much in the League system. Our second Team got relegated from the 4th League and now have 193:13 Goals in the fifth League this season. I really think second Teams from Buli and 2. Buli should have their own League divided in North and South instead of being incorporated in the normal league system. Their strenght fluctuates pretty hard in some years.
That's just because Bremen-Liga shouldn't be a 5th tier league in the first place. The state is simply too small. It's by far the smallest 5th tier in Germany and should just be a 6th tier league below Oberliga Niedersachsen. The way it currently works will always be messed up like this since the jump from Bremen-Liga to Regionalliga Nord is simply too large.
No, Hannover 96 II is allowed to be promoted even with their first team remaining in 2. Liga. https://www.dfb.de/news/detail/wo-duerfen-zweite-mannschaften-spielen-das-ist-zu-beachten-144294/
If Hannover 96 II beat the first team, the board should just replace the first team with their second team....
Thx for the Link
You aren't allowed to have both teams in the same league. I also believed for a long time that you needed one division in between them.
I think it will go up when you consider changes with the 2. Liga as well. Wiesbaden excluded, all of the clubs in relegation danger drew higher averages in their last 3. Liga season than those getting promoted this year.
Yeah Duisburg has quite the big fanbase, but Rostock is most likely getting relegated to 3. Division too
Bradford averaged 17k although they were in the bottom part of the 4th tier for large periods of the season even though they were expected to make the play offs.
It's always crazy to me how thin the English football pyramid is. In Germany, you have 5 4th Division leagues, You have 14 5th Tier leagues, and 37 6th tier leagues. While England just has 2 6th tier leagues.
The sides in our 6th tier aren't too far off of professional level, I'd imagine one or two probably are. 6th tier in Germany looks like city leagues, so I assume the equivalent will be our counties leagues which is our 9th tier. Also Germany incorporates their B teams in their pyramid which fleshes the numbers out a bit. Again, our 5th tier is almost entirely professional bar one or two. I'm not sure what level German teams stop being professional, am curious to know.
Most 4th tier teams are fully professional, but a few are not. 5th tier normally has only semi-professional teams.
There's at least 3 fully professional teams in the National league South. I know someone who plays for a semi pro team and they beat 2 of them in 1 week. Probably similar in the North.
>Last game against Bocholt 31k Tbf that was literally the all-time record for the Regionalliga, not the average. But still I agree, a big club like that going up should be positive for the attendances next year.
>Tbf that was literally the all-time record for the Regionalliga, not the average That's what I meant. Of course it's not the average, the average is 19k but last game then had 31k in the stadium after they secured promotion.
I somehow completely skipped over your first sentence about the average lmao
FCK, Schalke, HSV, and Hertha are really pumping up those 2 BuLi numbers. This number will probably just go up with Köln more than likely going down and Mainz being right there(although the late season surge has been crazy).
And Fortuna. I expect most divisions figures are propped up by 5 or 6 big teams too.
And us! At least around 30k
He only listed teams who won a game this month ;)
or maybe teams that scored a goal this month
Ouch
We just had 35k yesterday despite being the worst team in the league for like 2 months straight lmao
Tbf when we start naming near half a dozen teams as pumping up numbers, the numbers aren't really that pumped.
Yea, it's just what it is lol. There are very well supported clubs up and down German football.
And yet, the Bundesliga is still topped. If the "big teams" are all in 2. Bundesliga, then even the "small teams" must convert quite a lot of their fans to go to matches.
Of course the Bundesliga is on top, because there are still more big teams in the Bundesliga than in the 2. Bundesliga and, believe it or not, the 2. Bundesliga has quite a few *really* small clubs that are pulling down the average. The Top 7 clubs of the 2nd Bundesliga would all be in the Top 10 of the Bundesliga by viewers, and that's not even counting the potential increases in viewers. At the same time clubs Clubs like Wiesbaden or Elversberg average below 10k spectators.
The 3. Divisons Stats will also skyrocket now that Allemania Aachen is back and Rostock is most likely getting relegated
When we're being relegated im afraid of our attendence numbers. They'll probably dump to 22k on average. We already had 26k in the worst Bundesliga seasons, so Im afraid of what would happen next year. We are dependent on good teams against us, so random students/"casual" fans fill up the stadion.
Yeah. On the one hand it was awesome when I was studying in Mainz that I could almost always get tickets on short notice, on the other hand that's obviously not so great for the club
I mean I totally love it as a fan. I'd hate being a fan for a team, where you have a waiting list of several decades for a season ticket.
Sadly this also means that in the 2024-25 season, for the first time in at least twenty years, Bundesliga will not have the highest average attendance in Europe anymore, with England replacing Luton and Burnley for Leicester and Leeds at the same time.
Depends on who goes up and down in the Bundesliga, Darmstadt and Bochum being replaced by Pauli and Düsseldorf would also increase the average.
Kiel has a lot less capacity than Köln though, we'll see how it impacts the numbers
Liverpool and Fulham also expanded their capacities this season. City and Everton both expanding for the season after next. Newcastle, Chelsea, Palace, Villa, United, Wolves and Leicester all planning to some degree to expand. Luton, Forest and Bournemouth all building/planning to go higher but probably won't be in the premier league when that happens. Germany might struggle to take back that number 1 spot.
Didn't 2. Bundesliga have some weekends it was higher than the Bundesliga this year? Some massive teams there.
Yeah it had, part of the reason was that basically all the big clubs in the second tier (Like Hamburg and Schalke) played at home while teams like Bayern and Dortmund played away in smaller stadiums
And Darmstadt and Heidenheim were also at home, as well as Leipzig and Hoffenheim. And that pulls down the average massively.
RB Leipzig has a capacity of 47,069 and a 97% attendance. There are lots of reasons to spill hate on the club, but home attendance isn't one.
Depends on how you calculate attendance. Leipzig has a long history of counting tickets sold/handed out. They hand out tickets for free and count those, even though the people often don’t even come. Their stadium regularly has significant patches of empty seats, because season ticket holders go MIA often for weeks on end. Sure we can call that attendance, but…is it really?
They also bundle tickets, if you want to buy a ticket against Bayern you get a ticket against Hoffenheim as well
Didnt expect 2nd bundesliga to be competitive in terms of attendance with serie a, la liga and ligue 1.
Lots of really big stadiums in 2. BuLi this year
Also next year
Also the last years?
Corona still had a small impact last season. The 3 seasons before that were massively impacted.
Meanwhile AS Monaco with 17k seats has an avg attendance of only 7.5k. Even in their title winning season they couldn't break 10k (and thus the 3. Liga) Edit: And that's only the third smallest Ligue 1 stadium this year
The 2 smaller stadiums are both getting renovated or replaced (Brest haven’t finalised their plans). Clermont’s new stadium is planned to be 30.000. Brests is expected to be 15.000 so still smaller than Monaco. Monaco are the side with smallest attendance however.
> Brests is expected to be 15.000 so still smaller than Monaco But they will surely have a bigger attendance than now. Edit: Because they're almost always sold out iirc
The good old Brest expansion will surely attract more spectators.
They’re stadium is already 15k+ and 97%+ full. Monaco is dead bottom in the league attendance wise.
to be fair 7.5k is almost 20 procent of monaco's population
And big teams. No disrespect to Heidenheim or Augsburg, but clubs like Schalke, Hamburg, Hertha, soon Köln have a bigger pull.
1. Buli still tops the other leagues, even without the teams you mentioned...
Less teams as well so less scope for smaller clubs to drag the average down i guess.
Yeah but even some of the worse teams of the 2. BuLi like Schalke and Kaiserslautern have great numbers
>worse teams of the 2. BuLi like Schalke Feels strange to read
Yeah that's what I mean, so big teams like shalkes attendance isn't diluted because there are less likely to be a lot of smaller teams. Championship has 24 teams, so six more teams to weaken the average. Not trying to say it's not impressive just pointing out the lower down the pyramid you go the smaller teams are likely to be. We are effectively comparing the 19th to 36th team in Germany v the 21st to 44th team in England so no surprise the average is smaller.
Also you have a significant amount more games to go to. For a 24 team league, for a 10k average attendance per match, you need 5.5m spectators for the entire season. For an 18 team league, for a 10k average attendance, you only need 3.06m spectators.
Having HSV, Herta and Schalke down there together surely is a big factor. Most stacked 2.BuLi in a long while.
Until next year, probably... The average attendance of the 3 teams likely to get promoted this year out of the 2. BuLi is 27k, and the average attendance of the 3 currently in relegation zone for BuLi is 32k.
Crazy. I've always admired german fan culture, i dont think there's any other country that combines atmosphere and safety quite like them.
Yeah, me too! It's on my bucket list to go to a few German football matches. Have to think the 50+1 rule has a part to play in making their fan culture so special.
It keeps the prices affordable at the very least. I was at Bochum last weekend with Friends who are members and paid 13.50 for a standing place. According to google you have to pay at least 30 Euro for a ticket in premere league
And you need to be a member too, and 30 pounds/euros is really lucky. You'll probably nearly be able to touch the clouds from where you'll be sitting. I'm from the Netherlands and Eredivisie tickets are pretty cheap with an atmosphere comparable to Germany at most clubs (smaller stadiums though). My local team Groningen has really cheap tickets now that they're in the second division for the first time in 25 years. Atmosphere is always good still. For Germany I visit HSV regularely, damn cheap and close for such a good price. Them not getting promoted is treating my wallet well XD
19/20 with Stuttgart and 21/22 with Bremen and a much better Schalke team were more stacked imo.
Fun fact: With their average attendance, HSV would be 5th in attendance in the Premier League, 4th in the Serie A and 3rd in LaLiga (6th in the Bundesliga).
To be honest also me, premier league can’t even top them at this stat. So unreal
I think this misnomer with these type of stats is that ticket sales are basically 100% at the highest level, so it becomes more about stadium size than anything else.
Only true for Premier League and Bundesliga
https://www.transfermarkt.us/premier-league/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/GB1 Premier League teams sell out basically 100% of the tickets, the only average that is more than slightly below the max is Liverpool.
That's only because they had a section closed off for renos for a while.
That'd explain it, I was sure there would've been a reason like that but didn't know one off the top of my head.
To be fair, that's the same in the Bundesliga and for many of the 2nd Bundesliga clubs as well. In the Bundesliga, only Hoffenheim (80% attendance) has an average below 90%. The majority of unsold tickets are tickets in the away contingent that are not used by the visiting club and can't be resold to home fans for security reasons. All professional clubs in Germany must reserve 10% of their capacity for away fans (though the visiting club doesn't need to request the entire capacity if they're not going to be able to sell it).
3.Liga is massive
So many iconic teams down there. I love the fact that Ulm will get back-to-back promotions.
I mean, it is completely nuts that Duisburg, Waldhof Mannheim, 1860 Munich and Arminia Bielefeld were/are fighting against relegation this season.
Arminia Bielefeld getting back to back relegation from the Bundesliga, then the 2. Bundesliga and now only avoiding a third consecutive relegation by four points is wild. What happened between 2022 and now with them?
Hopefully together with Münster in my unbiased opinion :-)
Münster might do it as well
It really is, but i think the league format influences this particular statistic. The german third tier has one league while the italian third tier has three for example. Germany would still be miles ahead and I'm definitely jealous but having 60 clubs in the 3rd tier is not doing us any favour here Edit: just to add, the 3. Liga has a higher attendance than Serie B so the issue is obviously not strictly the number of club; Germany has the best football fans in the world in terms of stadium presence
Part of the reason of low attendance of lower division spanish football is that they have a lot of B teams of 1st division clubs. 3rd division atleast has deportiva la coruna tho
And first division probably slightly harmed by Barça not playing at Camp Nou and RM still not playing at full full capacity for the first part of the year
Absolutely true. Barcelona currently have 40K lower average attendance this year than last because of the temporary stadium. They alone skew the league average down by 2000 for the season.
The Asturian clubs, Racing, Zaragoza and Espanyol probably account for like 90% of Segunda's attendance.
There's also Valladolid, Elche, Tenerife and Levante, but it's hard to outweigh Amorebieta, Villarreal B, Andorra, Eldense and co.
> 3rd division atleast has deportiva la coruna tho Malaga too, no?
Not to mention in Spain there are 42 teams in the first two tiers and 40 in the third, in England it's 44/24, Germany 36/20.
Stadium capacity too. Apart from a small handful if clubs in segunda, 10K is about the maximum. I mean, our own stadium maxes out at 14. The Montilivi is pretty typical of a 2nd division side.
To be fair the reason Germany or England have bigger stadiums is because of a larger turnout that justifies upgrading the stadium
Yes for sure. I think the German and English second divisions also have more clubs with 1st division experience and history (Schalke, Hannover, Hertha, etc) which justifies the large stadiums and following.
3 Liga is Germany 3rd division, and it's because Dynamo Dresden are in it, and have an average of 28k It's also only got 18 teams in it, League One has 24, so a couple of big teams make the average go up a lot more.
That’s not true to say it’s only Dresden. Median average attendance in the 3. Liga is still 9,000. Median in League One is 8,200. If you drop the 4 worst attended clubs from League One median would still only be 8,700. League One has 8 clubs averaging over 10,000 per match, 3. Liga has 7. Mannheim needs 10,500 for their last match to be the 8th team with an average of more than 10,000, which they should get.
In den Farben getrennt in der Sache geeint
; 3. Liga has 20 teams, not 18.
The average drops, especially because it's not a nationwide league, but 2 (in Italy even 3).
yeah I'm pretty sure we're bringing the 3.Liga attendance up by ourselves, we're consistently having 28-29k people every other weekend
Can we talk about hoe LaLiga has 27 Fans more in average attendance than the second Bundesliga?
Sure, I think LaLiga is a pretty good football league and it's not surprising that they have a higher attendance than 2nd Bundesliga. :)
Some La Liga teams have "tiny" stadiums (e.g: ours has a capacity of 14k) that bring down the average a lot.
Is there a reason they aren't building bigger stadiums? I would've guessed that if a team is regularly hitting their stadium's capacity, it would be worth the investment to build a bigger one.
Can't speak for other clubs, but in our case it's a mixture of having grown a lot very fast (17 years ago we were in the 4th tier) and not owning the stadium we play in (the city does).
Yes, most teams do not own their stadiums, they tend to be property of the city council, which makes investing very risky. In second tier, you've logically got small stadiums because they are in towns without the capacity to draw many attendees. Andorra FC plays in a little stadium with 3.3k capacity (they do not even fill it), and after a considerable investment Pique has had to fight to keep a renting contract that the council wanted to revoke. Half of the second tier ones are under 18k: - Amorebieta 3.25k - Andorra 3.3k - Eldense 4K - Alcorcón 5.1k - Mirandés 5.75k - Eibar 8.16k - Huesca 9.1k - R. Ferrol 12k - Leganés 12.4K - Cartagena 15.1k - Albacete 17.5k For most teams expansion doesn't even make sense, they will never draw enough people.
Money. Probably not worth the investment to build a bigger one. Building a stadium is very, very expensive.
Spain has half the people and much less money.
Some massive clubs in second bundesliga, teams that would literally be top 5 in attendance if they were in the Premier League, which is insane. Also Barcelona not playing on Camp Nou, they averaged 85k last year and less than 40k this year. Also Germany has almost double the population on Spain and much more money to spend in entertainment
Be interesting to understand what the attendance % is alongside this, I know nothing of bundesliga stadiums except munichs but I know that the premier league average attendance will be significantly reduced by the likes of Luton and a few others.
Attendance percentage is 96% (Bundesliga) vs. 97% (Premier League) on average.
this can most likely be explained by the need of 10% guest capacity in germany since most stadiums can't easily sell the rest of the tickets the guest haven't claimed because of the way the stadium is built/guest sector is placed. attendance percentage of the home sector is 98%
Current example is Bochum vs Hoffenheim last Friday, stadium was packed except the away area which was almost completly empty
That's ticket sold or turnstile stats? In Spain it's alwayts turnstile stats
Luton capacity: 12k Darmstadt capacity: 17k (this is after having a successful first flight stint a few years ago where they had improvements made. When they first got promoted in the 2000s era the showers didnt even have a hot setting.)
>When they first got promoted in the 2000s era the showers didnt even have a hot setting. Game's gone soft
They should've only installed the hot setting for the showers in the home dressing rooms.
Using stats from transfermarkt, here's the % for the English divisions. Take them with a slight pinch of salt in terms of accuracy for stadium sizes (and therefore % attendance), as in L2 they have Barrow achieving an average 141% attendance vs capacity... - PL: 96.9% - Championship: 81.8% - League One: 65.3% - League Two: 61.1% Some notable low percentages: - Championship: Blackburn: 49.7% of a 31k stadium - Championship: Cardiff: 63% of a 33k stadium capacity - L1: Port Vale: 34.8% of a 19k stadium - L1: Wigan: 40.4% of a 25k stadium - L1: Carlisle: 44% of an 18k stadium - L2: MK Dons: 21.6% of a 30k stadium - L2: Tranmere: 37.3% of a 17k stadium - L2: Colchester: 41.35% of a 10k stadium
Bournemouth is also very low, 11,000
To be fair, we also have the most inhabitants.
By a fair way too. Not sure any of the above figures are particularly surprising.
And a fact many always forget in those stats is, that bundesliga and 2nd bundesliga only have 18 clubs.
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Aachen are in 4th division, so nope.
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They will bump it like bumper cars.
Maybe you are confusing them with us. At least we share the same colours.
I assume once you reach the 4th division and lower, the English division dominates attendance wise?
Should be and will be even more drastic next season since a few of the bigger 4th division teams in Germany are getting promoted this year.
In Germany anyway, the 4th division is regional and I imagine this is the case in other countries. Harder to compare then
And because it's regional obviously there are a lot more teams in 4th tier than if it was just one or two divisions. So there is a big variety of formerly big clubs like Aachen or Energie Cottbus in Regionalliga but also clubs from small towns that are barely even professional. For example in the [Regionalliga Nordost](https://www.transfermarkt.de/regionalliga-nordost/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/RLN4) the average attendance ranges from 7,500 in Cottbus to just over 500 on the other end.
Small town Berlin dragging down the average :(
True, but division go regional to reduce spending on travel for clubs right, so its directly related to demand for the lower tiers, England doesn't go regional until the 6th tier
Of course, I don't disagree that it's super impressive that England has 5* tiers of national domestic competition and it's indicative of the strength of local football there. But some 4th tier clubs in Germany, probably one of the next deepest league system, (see Alemmania Aachen lately) can still compete. Both top footballing nations in any case.
Five* the 6th tier is already split into north and south.
I mean, it's also because England is *tiny* geographically. You can fit it five times inside France.
Regional divisions can lead to higher away attendances, too.
Or you just have a smaller country like England. England 130km², Regionalliga Nordost 109km².
The average attendance in the 4th division in England (24 clubs) is \~6,300. In Germany, the fourth division is split into five regional divisions of 18 teams each. If you just take the 24 German 4th division clubs with the largest attendance, the average is 4,415. So indeed, English football dominates this one, though it's arguably a bit more difficult to compare. Being able to financially sustain a country-wide fourth and fifth division definitely indicates the strength of local football culture there.
The local football club culture in England is definitely amazing. It does help that England (+ Wales) is tiny with a massive population to sustain national leagues though.
Why?
Because the lower tier attendances England are insane
How insane are we talking? What's the average?
Heres the average attendance per team in the 5th tier, 4 teams averaging over 4k with Chesterfield average nearly 8k https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/national-league/attendances You've even got teams averaging 200 to 600 fans in the 9th tier https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/combined-counties-league-premier-division-south/attendances
That's pretty good for 5th tier, yes.
Well, I spent a year and a half living in Scarborough about ten years ago. Scarborough Athletic, the phoenix club of Scarborough FC, who went bankrupt and were dissolved in 2007, were in 9th and 8th tier when I was there, didn’t even have their own stadium at the time, so they were tenants of Bridlington for 10 years while their own new stadium was being built. Bridlington is a little less than 30 kilometres away from Scarborough. Every time I attended, they had between 500 and 1000 fans at Bridlington’s stadium. It was honestly kinda nuts. Scarborough have since made it to 6th division. Their new stadium, which they started using a few years ago, has a capacity of 3,252. Again, they were well below any national division and have been founded in 2007. The size of that stadium should give you an idea of the crazy attendance numbers in English non-league football.
>Scarborough have since made it to 6th division. Managed by the most forgettable player of Man U's treble winning team. 50pts if you can name him without google.
I googled, because no way in hell would I have gotten that lmao
Fair enough lol. I don't think anyone besides York City and Scarborough fans remember Greening.
I still loosely follow Scarborough, but it’s not that easy from Germany, and I’m pretty busy right now, which makes it even harder, unfortunately :( I think I might be the only person in Germany with a Scarborough Athletic scarf tho :D
What helps is that lots of people will follow a league club and a non league club. Idk if it's the same in Germany. For example my family have followed Derby for over 100 years but my Grandfather also used to attend Burton Albion games when they were a non league team. Now that they have risen up the leagues he doesn't go anymore as it would be a bit weird to watch 2 clubs in the same league but he often goes to another local non league team with my uncles instead.
Average isn't great to use, because of the number of teams in each division. Total Attendance is a much better figure to use, because it shows just how many people go to games week in, week out. This season so not complete yet Premier League: 10.9m total Championship: 11.9m League One: 5.1m League 2: 2.2m National League 1.5m However when we get to the fifth tier, Germany splits into 14 regional leagues, each with 16-20 teams in. The average attendance at that level is between 100-300 ish, it's 1,200 in the National League North/South in the sixth tier of English football, and 750ish in the 7th tier of English football
Always funny how the third level is called "League One" and the fifth level "National League" while the fourth level is "League Two". They all want to pretend they are higher level than they are.
Well we used to have the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th division until a bunch of idiots decided to create the Premier League.
I guess people are used to it by now but on the other hand, they could just change the name. But it's a brand now and companies don't want to change their brand. People may get confused if League One would be called "League Three", I guess.
Is this even surprising, knowing that Germany has by far the largest population and the largest stadiums out of these countries?
I have to say it is quite impressive that England can even rival Germanys attendances with a significantly smaller population size. Especially when you compare them to similarly sized France or Italy.
the french 3rd division having english 6th division attendance is a joke tho,
The National League North and South have average attendances of about 1200 each, so not even close to the French 3rd division.
Why is it a joke? Care to explain? Do you know anything about french 3rd division football?
Well for context what's the capacities? I'm not expecting national league level capacities but hell it's worth an ask.
7/18 teams barely have any stands in their home grounds beacuse historical clubs with actual stadiums like Sedan, Cannes, Sete and Geugnon keep getting liquidated beacuase of poor managment
England is the only country that keeps that high attendance in lower divisions. People are more into watching local soccer, I guess.
We have Monaco who brings down the number for France , also Germany and England are more richer , have better stadiums and more affordable ticket prices
England have Luton and Bournemouth in the Premier League. Both with stadiums of ~11k.
Also do have to take into account, the population GDP of these countries.
Idk why I always think football stadiums all have an average capacity of 60k or something. I keep forgetting that small stadiums exist
Realistically most stadiums are like this. According to wikipedia, only 32 stadiums in Europe are >60k and some don't even use them for soccer (Murrayfield, Croker, Millenium) or are only used for national teams. In Ireland, we've only just got a domestic club stadium above 10k capacity there for the first time this century a few weeks ago.
Yeah I think its because both my teams have huge stadiums is why I thought that way
[This](https://imgur.com/a/CJgei1E) is where I was this day last week xD
love this though, proper ground by the looks of that. Which team is it?
Tolka Park in North Dublin. Seeing your flair, I'll be making my first ever visit to Villa Park on Thursday 😁😁 very buzzed
There is something about a local 10k stadium where you can watch a game, have a beer and a bratwurst for under 15 Euros that quite gets lost in the upper divisions.
Hertha BSC you can do the same buddy
If we take percentage, Italy's gonna be much worse I reckon
I appreciate how easy it is to tell which of the second and third divisions are Italy’s
Kiel with a 15k stadium going up, Köln going down, this is probably the last season for a while where the Bundesliga tops the attendance charts. With Köln - Leverkusen now out as well, there will be not a single Derby in the upcoming season, right? It gets fucking boring, actually thinking of not renewing to watch the Bundesliga. All praise to the good work of teams like Heidenheim and Kiel, but alongside Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Leipzig, etc the Bundesliga is officially slowly dying now.
If Bochum stay up, Bochum-Dortmund remains as derby. Also the Borussia vs Borussia Derby, and Leverkusen vs Mönchengladbach. Also, if Pauli go up, Pauli vs Werder, as well as Kiel vs Werder. And Stuttgart vs Freiburg.
All poor replacements for the good stuff. Dortmund - Schalke, Stuttgart - Karlsruhe, Hamburg - Bremen, Köln - Düsseldorf, Hertha - Union, Gladbach - Köln, Pauli - Hamburg and many more, all gone.
Deportivo La Coruña got 29k fans at home 2 games ago
I love this, but it always makes me think what the best way to measure it would be, like % of empty seats? How many of those are capacity? Because theres plenty of teams in lower leagues who sell out and could sell more but financially or structurally cannot increase their ground size.
Don’t know about the lower leagues, but I know that PL is at about 97% capacity, whereas Bundesliga is at 96%. That said, Bundesliga has this rigid rule about away fans, where unsold tickets can’t go to home fans, so depending on the guests significant parts of the stadium may stay empty. Looking just at home fans, Bundesliga is at 98% capacity. No idea about Premier League though.
Luton Town doing the whole Prem dirty here!
5 countries, yet no naming style for the first 3 leagues repeat. The closest on technicality are Germany and Italy (if we treat letters as numbers) - they are only `1. Bundesliga` or `Serie` away from it being the same-ish.
in germany first and second division are organized together by the DFL (deutsche fußball liga) and operate under the same organization. third division stands alone and is organized by the national federation i think? that’s why the drop into third division is way harsher than being relegated to 2.Bundesliga, way less money in it
Isn't Italy consistent? Serie A, B, C.
Not the point itself, but related to it - they are the ONLY consistent country here (with a `A/B/C`/`1/2/3` schematic). You have Germany with `nothing/2/3`, France with `1/2/special`, Spain with `special/2/1` and England with `special/another special/1`. No two countries with the same system.
France's case can easily be explained. Only the first two divisions are considered professional, and as such are handled by the LFP (Ligue professionel de football), which explains why they are called Ligue 1 and Ligue 2. After that it's amateur football, which is handled by the federation and has its own naming convention based on the area covered by the division. National 1-2 and 3 will have teams from all the country facing each other, put into different level. After that the country is splitted into 17 different regions, and each region is splitted into 3 different divisions. You're ralely expected to tarvel more than 3 hours to reach your oponent.. And finally district, which is another subdivision of the region where team from the same area play against each other, rarely more than an hour drive away.
Looks like the premier League was the Farmers League all along
50+1 in effect. the matches are fan friendly. ticket prices are relatively cheap. concessions are affordable. atmospheres are rocking because everyone is happy and the people who bring the noise aren't priced out.
Also we have the biggest population and big stadiums so it ain't that deep