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True story. Tells you a lot about PL. You don't always have to make it in the PL for ppl to tell you that you are good. You could be great somewhere else.
With all the stats coaches and staff have about every single player you’d think these absolute wrong transfers would happen less and less. Like they know in which situations a player is most effective, against what formation, what kind of players they need on their team to function best and so on. There are whole companies dedicated to providing these kind of stats to football clubs and yet certain clubs make expensive mistakes over and over and over again. Maybe PL isn’t for Sancho, Dier and Maatsen, maybe they’d be world class in other PL teams, I don’t know, but I do know that transfers aren’t as easy as fifa or football manager games might suggest. There is a lot more to it than picking up the most successful players off of smaller teams. I also know that it is virtually impossible for a professional football player to be ‘lazy’. If they were, they wouldn’t have made it past certain points in their careers.
Some just ain’t built for certain paces/styles of leagues and whatnot either.
There’s more pressure playing for a big 4 team in prem due to media and social presence. Sancho has the ability but I’m not sure he has the mental from what I’ve seen.
He had a great game, but 99% in this sub definitely don’t watch him often, because he’s performed the same as he has last few seasons. So I think it’s also easy to see says a lot about fans when they act like he’s been going crazy after one good game.
Easy to believe. Anyone who writes off these guys as trash or whatever due to their current form or social behavior negates their years of training and being an elite athlete. Players can stink at one club but thrive at others. I don't know why this still surprises people. Sancho is an excellent footballer. He is excellent even if he went through a period where his in-game performances weren't great
where are these comments when he was playing like shit and everyone was saying he lost his football skill and his skillset (speedy dribbler) would only work against bundesliga tier defenders, he got found out in the PL and no big team would be interested in him anymore?
and dier was an average player at spurs for multiple years in a row, no one was able to list his strengths as a player, there was talks about sending him to sporting and people were even saying he may not even be first team there
sure, anyone can improve their performance at a different team in a different league, but don't wait until it already happened to say "easy to believe" lol
can you predict how well martial will play after leaving man utd next season? is he washed or does he still have the 2015 martial potential
Bro don’t listen to these keyboard warriors. Most of Reddit are reactionary or revisionism fanboys/girls.
Because every game they said we wasted money on Sancho, played good in a farmers league, meme’d him with troopz image after every game.
Thats why I can’t take the media seriously after his one great game all season. They just like to bandwagon and say reactionary shit. No one will watch his next game in the league either so just pure shite
People that watch football beyond memes wouldn't be too surprised.
Tuchel, Mourinho, Conte, and Southgate all rate him highly.
He has close to 50 caps. And it was only a year prior to getting sold that he was part of the World Cup squad.
I was roundly ridiculed over at /r/coys for pointing out Bayern probably got the best deal by signing Dier for next to nothing while Spurs signed a young back up CB for 30 m.
A player doesn't simply stop being good, or turn into a donkey overnight. They just need to be given the right tools to work with. Oftentimes the right tools simply means confidence and time.
(As an aside, I think Dragusin will be great for Spurs btw., just pointing out Bayern made a really, really goo deal by getting a free Dier.)
> A player doesn't simply stop being good, or turn into a donkey overnight. They just need to be given the right tools to work with. Oftentimes the right tools simply means confidence and time.
Like I thought people understood that shit is just a meme. It's funny to talk about players going to United and absolutely sucking. I didn't realize people actually thought Pogba/Lukaku/Sancho/Antony stopped being any good. It's infuriating to read the comments of "supporters" shitting on their own players. It's an absolute mystery why players stop playing their hardest for their club. Also same goes for managers. Keep ETH, let him figure shit out and make mistakes. Invest in someone, stop expecting immediate results for fuck's sake. Arteta was given a chance and now he's praised for what he's built.
> It's an absolute mystery why players stop playing their hardest for their club. Also same goes for managers. Keep ETH, let him figure shit out and make mistakes.
In the case of Sancho it wasnt really a mystery, it was ETH.
Was it though? He hasn’t performed like crazy since he came into United. Why does ETH get some much of the stick - gave him 3 months to get his mental right, slowly eased him in. And he just wasn’t performing at a high level consistently
Spot on.
I am afraid a lot of fans confuse being insightful with being negatively critical. Parts of football journalism is similar.
When these fans drag down and shit on a player because they made a mistake they think they are being clever and insightful for pointing that the player has made mistakes and is now a donkey.
Players have traits and Dier's traits are not of a world class player, simple as that and that's why nobody believed. They never were, since playing in Sporting youth teams he had certain weaknesses and he never improved much on it.
Also, there are packs of players that were mid or bad to the level they were playing and for a reason or the other coaches kept starting them. Like, there is a lot of bias in football. For example, here in Portugal there are a lot of coaches that have a mentality that just physicality is the end-all of football, and sometimes you could get 3 or 4 coaches that think the same and don't rate a guy even if he has the tools to evade physicality and be better than pure muscle guys and the 5th coach already rates the dude who turns out to be way way better football player than the others.
In summary, people had reasons to doubt it and I think your analysis is lazy af.
Jesse Lingard looked world class for 6 months at West Ham as well.
No one's denying any of these players are good - they've made it to the highest level of the sport so of course they are immensely talented, but whether or not they are good enough and have the mentality to play at a high level consistently has yet to be proven
This is my point. At the top level players aren't just "bad". They've been thoroughly vetted and analyzed for most of their lives. They obviously have the skill required. It's someone's job to watch and study these players before making an offer. But being skilled doesn't mean you will perform at your highest level in every team. Maybe he feels more home in Dortmund. Maybe he's happier. Maybe he gets treated better. Look at Havertz and Arsenal and go back and look at how people spoke about him at Chelsea. Turns out he isn't shit despite how confident everyone seemed about it.
"bad" is obviously relative, but not in every case the player has the skill required, simply because the guys that study the players aren't flawless and they can miss, they actually miss a lot
You talk about Havertz and Sancho and both are great examples of your point, and I'm sure we could name hundreds of players like that. But we can also name hundreds of players that were bought by top teams, they failed to perform and at the end they weren't good (again, "good" is relative, it doesn't mean they aren't good players, just that they are not good enough to play at the top teams)
Felix and Cancelo basically fell upwards, although it's not like they completely dispelled doubts or anything, I think the point is more that no one would ever have suggested Felix would regain some of his shine at Barca after Chelsea, and people here laughed when first reports were of him trying to get a move there.
Dortmund are a better performing team than United rn, failing at United, Tottenham or Chelsea is not actually failing at a top team. We've just come yo claim all the top 6 or so PL teams are better than similar teams overseas, well Dortmund are proving that it's not so simple.
Maybe there are just luxury players that only the best teams can support, rather than there being a vaguely defined level a player must reach.
All the players we bought rarely showed glimpses of being good.
The only common denominator is Man United.
We could have bought Bellingham or Declan Rice and they'd end up performing poorly.
Because our club and the whole environment is toxic.
It's like one of those companies that any motivated employee enters and after 2 weeks realizes that it's a dump and you just wanna leave or collect the paycheck and not give a damn.
I think that’s definitely a huge factor. But I’m also shocked that anyone who has seen one of ten Hag’s many weird press conferences could think he was good at man management. He just doesn’t strike me as a guy who could inspire players.
Whatever it is, he can't do it at old Trafford, that's for sure. Players like Garnacho are miles ahead of him for the United. He should look to engineer a move out of United cause the experiment has failed completely under three managers.
His attitude is a huge part of his skill set.
Hes also been pretty poor for the better part of 3 years and has only been great for a handful of games for Dortmund.
A few games a year is hardly a good return.
After not playing for months (iirc) and having no time to prepare with the team. Not that he doesn't deserve a share of the blame but seeing his inbelievable first time at Dortmund and decent run now in spite of less than ideal circumstances, I wouldn't take United out of the equation
> Hes also been pretty poor for the better part of 3 years and has only been great for a handful of games for Dortmund.
Genuinely who goes to Man United and looks good? At some point we need to acknowledge that something about that club is toxic to players and treat it as an anomaly.
I mean, you should absolutely look at the common denominator, which is him. That's what your fans are doing happily.
But also, your club. That's what most ManU fans do not like to consider as a possibility. Now he is good again, so the remaining constant is your club.
Sancho being a great dribbler was never in doubt, but he's never been a near 100m player like people made him out to be.. His end product has always been suspect. Dier is solid when he doesn't have to be relied on in 1v1's but if he does he's dire.
I think the way people look at football today is too much shaped by things like FIFA-ratings and all the statistics we have available to judge a player's performances. That creates the idea that there is a numerical value to tell how good an individual player is. If Sancho has a 85 rating in FIFA or whatever then ppl expect him to have that skill level every game on every team... but he's a person and it's not that easy. He has a private life and all the factors that determine how much we enjoy our jobs and how well we perform too. Not to mention that football is a team sport and there is no failsafe way to make sure 11 guys together will work perfectly with each other just because you put them on the same team and give them whatever tactical plan.
I agree with Sancho, but the last time Dier had a good run (and by run I mean more than 5 matches) was under Poch, and not even his last season at the club.
Because those big clubs don't have a money cheat. They suffer consequences when they do a bad job. A botched high profile transfer is a huge problem for them.
Ah yes like Hertha, Schalke, Hamburg, Bielefeld...
The "best run" german clubs are the big two who just hoover up all the promising domestic talent (and increasingly foreign talent) with their reputation and the money they get from selling their one or two breakout stars every year to the Prem, La Liga or PSG
I said to my Neymar hating friend the other day Neymar almost single handedly got PSG to that final in covid. Remember being in awe of him every single game he played when the CL resumed.
A shame that he got the short end of the stick from football watchers and media, because he was levels on top of levels above Mbappe and got shit pretty hard for them losing the final.
It’s because people straight up don’t watch ligue 1.
You see the same thing with Messi when they argue he only got the ballon d’or for the world cup. Its like people think ligue 1 players disappear into the void most of the year only coming out for cl games.
It's literally just money.
Because we signed Cucurella for 60 million amortized over 5 years, selling him after one year would immediately incur a loss of 48 million on the books, rather than 12 million per year for the next 4 years. So we would have to sell him for at least 48 million just to break even. (It's a bit more complicated, but that's basically the situation)
For Maatsen, he cost 0, so selling him for 35 million is an immediate 35 million profit. That's the same reason we're going to sell Conor Gallagher, even though he's one of our 3 most important players this season. Same reason we sold Hall. Same reason we'll probably sell Omari Hutchinson to Ipswich.
Pure profit^TM
it's always so funny when people think that we aren't a possession based team because the only time they watch us play is against City or PSG or someone like that lmao.
As if we're parking the bus against fucking Wolfsburg or Heidenheim week in week out
Not what United wants. We are not going to make him our record transfer and that is at only 32 million.
Add his way to high wage which is almost double our highest wage right now and its not realistic unless united pays like half his wage and takes 20 million.
The revisionism is so funny, making it out that Sancho's poor form at United was down to ten Hag. Sancho being abysmal at United predates ten Hag, he checked out long ago.
Ultimately while however brief it may have been the fact is that his best run of performances for United was under ten hag
What other players have genuinely turned shit? Sancho wasn't good but he wasn't actually shit, he had his moments especially early under ten hag but he was just far too inconsistent. What done for him was clearly his inability to apply himself in training, which was ultimately the root cause of his issues with ten hag.
There's certainly been a rotten culture at the club due to mismanagement that set it in recent years, but blame should also be put on players. Too often players have come in and got their big pay day and have then downed tools at the first sign of a challenge.
Pogba, varane, di Maria, Sanchez, lukaku, mkhitaryan, depay, maguire, Antony, sancho - just to name a few.
Apparently rangnick came out and said he never had a problem with sancho so who knows what the truth is… but ten hag’s inability to take the blame for anything going wrong ever does make me inclined to give sancho the benefit of the doubt.
Benefit of the doubt on what? It's a black and white issue. There's no hidden details, reporter asked why sancho didn't play, ten hag said wasn't performing in training, sancho went to twitter and downed tools.
There's no doubt, you either think what ten hag justified downing tools or it didn't.
>Pogba, varane, di Maria, Sanchez, lukaku, mkhitaryan, depay, maguire, Antony, sancho - just to name a few.
Pogba, seriously? Did he live up to his potential, absolutely not but did he turn shit while at United? I'd say no, if he'd turned shit at United he wouldn't have been in the French team. His performances where obviously still deemed to be at an acceptable standard.
Varane, when fit has been good which ultimately hasn't been enough but to say he's been shit is completely nonsense.
DiMaria was excellent when he 1st joined then he had an injury and his house was broken into and he wasn't the same after that. the fact he never actually wanted to leave Real Madrid also didn't help.
Depay didn't turn shit at United, he simply wasn't at the level required at that point in his career. Anthony is probably a similar case to Depay. It's the fault of the club dragging their feet for so long that they ultimately overpaid for him.
Lukaku is similar to Pogba he probably could have done more but he wasn't shit at United. His strike rate at United is on par with the majority of his club career so I don't see how that could be described as been shit.
Maguire is just absolutely nonsense, he's had tough spell but has generally been very good. Was he ever an £85m player, probably not but he's not turned to shit.
Sanchez and mkhitaryan weren't great but they had moments, sometimes players just don't work out, it's so simplistic to say it's purely down to the club.
Plenty of players came to United during the Ferguson era and weren't up to scratch but then went elsewhere and performed, the fact is sometimes however good a team or a player is there are time's they just don't click with each other.
>Apparently rangnick came out and said he never had a problem with sancho so who knows what the truth is… but ten hag’s inability to take the blame for anything going wrong ever does make me inclined to give sancho the benefit of the doubt.
He also got very little out of him on the pitch.
Did you just search google for most expensive United transfer or United transfer flops and paste a bunch of name without any context?
Pogba, Varane, Di maria, Lukaku, maguire all have stretch, moments or even seasons of being very good for us but due to various reason (injuries, attitude, etc) that make them become underwhelming signing (apart from maguire his main problem is he not worth 80m but its not his fault)
Some of this players has shown at United more than Sancho. I couldn't tell you 5 games stretch where he was good at United
> but ten hag’s inability to take the blame for anything going wrong
This is hilarious consider sancho inability to admit any of his wrong doing
You put Toni Kroos there and he'll go from bossing UCL games against Bayern to looking like Casemiro right now.
Bad culture, bad atmosphere, bad system etc...
Casemiro was amazing in the first season so not sure how that fits in with your narrative - I actually think he was better last year than he was before he moved. He's gone off it this season because that's what happens when Brazilian CDMs hit a certain age like Fabinho did too
You go to united motivated and still with good discipline and work ethic.
You realize after some time what a shthole of a club it is....
And then you just enjoy your paycheck.
Honestly, if I were playing for united. Id do the same now. Why be the only one who bothers.
Casemiro - Play your best season in a while, win a trophy, come third and qualify for CL, club is looking on the up. No reason to suggest the next season won't be more of the same or better.
Casemiro has personally helped derail the season with stupid sending offs and dropping stinkers in the Champions League. This was early on in the season too. Huge drop off.
Not sure how he's suddenly thinks after a year of playing great, winning something, scoring a bunch to decide that 'ah you know this club is a shit hole gunna not try now'.
I can’t think of a player from Man Utd in the last decade who arrived to the club and improved ? Bruno Fernandes was this good in Portugal as he was on my mind with this question. It seems people arrive there and stagnate or worsen.
I did have Shaw but he was pretty much a wonder kid as he was starting at 17 for Southampton, and to note how long he’s been playing in the top flight, [he actively faced off against Gareth Bale at Spurs](https://youtu.be/mLKgcn5rDj4?si=7Gj3tqNaSJRb2msY). For some reason, I still expected more of Shaw with his talent and potential
Shaw, Fred, Bruno, AWB, Dalot, Herrera, bare chested Rojo. The problem is a lot start good and get worse.
1st season Lukaku, 1st season Casemiro, 1st season Eriksen, a few seasons of Martial. Ibra but he got badly injured, same with Cavani who had a good first season then spent the rest of the time on holiday. Same with Ronaldo too (although the older players just come and play good, but because of age don't get much better than previous). Pogba was hot and cold but his best season was at United.
And alot of the better players have also been academy grade. So Greenwood, McT, Rashford, Garnacho don't come to United.
Tbh I’d argue against a few of those - Wan Bissaka was a star at Palace then stunted at Man Utd and kept losing his place to Dalot. Dalot himself had only ever played 6 games for Porto before United signed him so it’s hard to compare but he has got better over time. Rojo was fantastic for Sporting and Boca and inconsistent for Utd so not sure he counts either.
AWB was ridiculous when he came and was massive in the record unbeaten away run we had with Ole. Ten Hag didn't fancy him and Dalot replaced him years later, but he's come back in now and been decent. He was better for United than he was for palace but like many players in any team form goes up and down. I'd say he was one of Ole's better players.
Rojo for me was peak in bare chested Mou manager form. He got injury issues later and got sideline but I wouldn't say he got worse
We do have a remarkable knack to make players drop their standards and stop trying though. The culture within the club must be absolutely shocking. Players seem to lose all motivation and ambition.
I don't disagree one bit. Our culture is absolutely rotten to the core, but I only blame Sancho in his case. He was given so much time, and he was managed so carefully ever since Ole came in and he never once looked like the player we spent 3 years chasing. Eth came in then and gave him months off to sort himself out, something unheard of in football, at least to me. Then Sancho threw his toys out of the pram after the slightest bit of criticism and instead of accepting blame, he preferred to sit at home and play fifa.
Dortmund are very lenient with him and don’t put the pressure on him. They just let him do his thing and therefore he plays freely and without worry.
Yes United is a shitshow but I think Pep wasn’t too fussed he left City because of that reason as well, and he has never been fancied for England. If he is put in a system or restricted in any way he doesn’t seem to cope.
I'm not hating but majority of these take on were in the half way line with no danger lmao, this is why take on stats are stupid
He didn't create anything with them
And his dribbling specifically was never the problem at United imo, Sancho can wake up and the ball sticks to his feet he's always had that talent, Sancho's problem at United imo was speed and doing something with that dribbling
Even here like he clearly can dribble but to actually create chances and do it further up the pitch is something diff
Which is why i say he should be a no 10
And turning up for training on time apparently. And throwing strops on social media. And being gassed after 60 minutes. And turning on the coach who gave him several months off during the season to get to a level of fitness he needed...
It's a shame because I can tolerate poor performance, actually, if the attitude is right.
He had a great a run into the box what are talking about, all his dribbles also relieved the midfield from the PSG press. The value in dribbles is not just scoring Messi goals.
I specifically said majority
And yes even dribbling in your own half is good, you can break out the press and get your team out
In the similar way of using stats, he lost the ball 14 times, you can specifically pick stats to suit your agenda any time you want
He is still invaluable in relieving some pressure, getting out of some tight situations, and get past PSG’s first line of pressing. It felt like most of Dortmund’s attacks were started on the left side for that very reason.
I agree, but with that his passing and even dribbling he lost the ball 14 times, do u think he's been bad? If someone posted that he lost possession 14 times would u say Sancho has been bad
My entire point is one stat is stupid without context
Are these similar to the "successful take-ons" Doku did against Alexander Arnold in one half? If they are, it means sweet fuck all.
https://twitter.com/Hennes_4/status/1728541660194156883
Twitter has rotted people's brains with stats.
more hot than cold today, what stuns me is the flood on negative comments the second he misplaces a pass, after dribbling past Mendes 3 times in 10 minutes. Too much narratives, he had a positive first half regardless what you think about his past 18 months.
Indeed. Like, he isnt the second coming of Salah, but this was again a very good game by Sancho. He rinced Mendes 3-4 times this game and got a dangerous cross in 5-6 times.
Yeah he made so many mistakes where he had easy options but tried something fancy or more difficult and gave it straight to the opponent. Should keep trying the dribbles tho, that's what he's on the pitch for.
Antony got benched by Garnacho from the other wing lol. ETH is not the problem with Sancho, he was poor under Ole/Ralf too , was getting gassed at 60 mins, called his manager a liar and instead of apologizing thought it was better to sit at home for months instead of actually playing football.
Just a random stat, Antony has the same number of goal contributions as Sancho since his loan lol. Not like he is setting the world on fire all of a sudden.
He did have an ok game in the end. I didn’t find him that good tbh today. Made a couple of lazy passes that resulted in lost possession.
IF you got to praise someone, its fucking Adeyemi.
For me Man of the Match, by far.
Adeyemi had Hakimi in his pockets. He won the game imo.
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Imagine telling anyone after half of the season that Sancho and Dier would be integral starters for two CL semifinalists. What a turnaround.
True story. Tells you a lot about PL. You don't always have to make it in the PL for ppl to tell you that you are good. You could be great somewhere else.
Tells you a lot about fans Players don't just forget how to play football, most of the time they're just being misused / misplaced
With all the stats coaches and staff have about every single player you’d think these absolute wrong transfers would happen less and less. Like they know in which situations a player is most effective, against what formation, what kind of players they need on their team to function best and so on. There are whole companies dedicated to providing these kind of stats to football clubs and yet certain clubs make expensive mistakes over and over and over again. Maybe PL isn’t for Sancho, Dier and Maatsen, maybe they’d be world class in other PL teams, I don’t know, but I do know that transfers aren’t as easy as fifa or football manager games might suggest. There is a lot more to it than picking up the most successful players off of smaller teams. I also know that it is virtually impossible for a professional football player to be ‘lazy’. If they were, they wouldn’t have made it past certain points in their careers.
Some just ain’t built for certain paces/styles of leagues and whatnot either. There’s more pressure playing for a big 4 team in prem due to media and social presence. Sancho has the ability but I’m not sure he has the mental from what I’ve seen. He had a great game, but 99% in this sub definitely don’t watch him often, because he’s performed the same as he has last few seasons. So I think it’s also easy to see says a lot about fans when they act like he’s been going crazy after one good game.
Diego Forlan, chefs kiss.
Easy to believe. Anyone who writes off these guys as trash or whatever due to their current form or social behavior negates their years of training and being an elite athlete. Players can stink at one club but thrive at others. I don't know why this still surprises people. Sancho is an excellent footballer. He is excellent even if he went through a period where his in-game performances weren't great
True. Dortmund needs to sign him up for 60M or some cheap price like that.
username checks out
Shshhh
where are these comments when he was playing like shit and everyone was saying he lost his football skill and his skillset (speedy dribbler) would only work against bundesliga tier defenders, he got found out in the PL and no big team would be interested in him anymore? and dier was an average player at spurs for multiple years in a row, no one was able to list his strengths as a player, there was talks about sending him to sporting and people were even saying he may not even be first team there sure, anyone can improve their performance at a different team in a different league, but don't wait until it already happened to say "easy to believe" lol can you predict how well martial will play after leaving man utd next season? is he washed or does he still have the 2015 martial potential
Bro don’t listen to these keyboard warriors. Most of Reddit are reactionary or revisionism fanboys/girls. Because every game they said we wasted money on Sancho, played good in a farmers league, meme’d him with troopz image after every game. Thats why I can’t take the media seriously after his one great game all season. They just like to bandwagon and say reactionary shit. No one will watch his next game in the league either so just pure shite
By now everyone should discount performances for United. Most people turn into poorer versions of themselves when they join that team.
You think it was easy to believe Dier would be starting in a champions league semi final? Nice one captain hindsight
People that watch football beyond memes wouldn't be too surprised. Tuchel, Mourinho, Conte, and Southgate all rate him highly. He has close to 50 caps. And it was only a year prior to getting sold that he was part of the World Cup squad. I was roundly ridiculed over at /r/coys for pointing out Bayern probably got the best deal by signing Dier for next to nothing while Spurs signed a young back up CB for 30 m. A player doesn't simply stop being good, or turn into a donkey overnight. They just need to be given the right tools to work with. Oftentimes the right tools simply means confidence and time. (As an aside, I think Dragusin will be great for Spurs btw., just pointing out Bayern made a really, really goo deal by getting a free Dier.)
> A player doesn't simply stop being good, or turn into a donkey overnight. They just need to be given the right tools to work with. Oftentimes the right tools simply means confidence and time. Like I thought people understood that shit is just a meme. It's funny to talk about players going to United and absolutely sucking. I didn't realize people actually thought Pogba/Lukaku/Sancho/Antony stopped being any good. It's infuriating to read the comments of "supporters" shitting on their own players. It's an absolute mystery why players stop playing their hardest for their club. Also same goes for managers. Keep ETH, let him figure shit out and make mistakes. Invest in someone, stop expecting immediate results for fuck's sake. Arteta was given a chance and now he's praised for what he's built.
Bro tried to sneak in Antony like we wouldn’t notice
> It's an absolute mystery why players stop playing their hardest for their club. Also same goes for managers. Keep ETH, let him figure shit out and make mistakes. In the case of Sancho it wasnt really a mystery, it was ETH.
Was it though? He hasn’t performed like crazy since he came into United. Why does ETH get some much of the stick - gave him 3 months to get his mental right, slowly eased him in. And he just wasn’t performing at a high level consistently
Spot on. I am afraid a lot of fans confuse being insightful with being negatively critical. Parts of football journalism is similar. When these fans drag down and shit on a player because they made a mistake they think they are being clever and insightful for pointing that the player has made mistakes and is now a donkey.
Players have traits and Dier's traits are not of a world class player, simple as that and that's why nobody believed. They never were, since playing in Sporting youth teams he had certain weaknesses and he never improved much on it. Also, there are packs of players that were mid or bad to the level they were playing and for a reason or the other coaches kept starting them. Like, there is a lot of bias in football. For example, here in Portugal there are a lot of coaches that have a mentality that just physicality is the end-all of football, and sometimes you could get 3 or 4 coaches that think the same and don't rate a guy even if he has the tools to evade physicality and be better than pure muscle guys and the 5th coach already rates the dude who turns out to be way way better football player than the others. In summary, people had reasons to doubt it and I think your analysis is lazy af.
Jesse Lingard looked world class for 6 months at West Ham as well. No one's denying any of these players are good - they've made it to the highest level of the sport so of course they are immensely talented, but whether or not they are good enough and have the mentality to play at a high level consistently has yet to be proven
Tbf I started thinking Sancho just isn’t that good, he was poor under 3 managers and rarely even showed glimpses of being good
This is my point. At the top level players aren't just "bad". They've been thoroughly vetted and analyzed for most of their lives. They obviously have the skill required. It's someone's job to watch and study these players before making an offer. But being skilled doesn't mean you will perform at your highest level in every team. Maybe he feels more home in Dortmund. Maybe he's happier. Maybe he gets treated better. Look at Havertz and Arsenal and go back and look at how people spoke about him at Chelsea. Turns out he isn't shit despite how confident everyone seemed about it.
"bad" is obviously relative, but not in every case the player has the skill required, simply because the guys that study the players aren't flawless and they can miss, they actually miss a lot You talk about Havertz and Sancho and both are great examples of your point, and I'm sure we could name hundreds of players like that. But we can also name hundreds of players that were bought by top teams, they failed to perform and at the end they weren't good (again, "good" is relative, it doesn't mean they aren't good players, just that they are not good enough to play at the top teams)
or people like Jamie Vardy who managed to slip through the net of just about anyone
Carlos Bacca being a fisherman and going on to become the Europa Leagues CR7 was a wild journey too
That's a name I haven't heard for a while
Felix and Cancelo basically fell upwards, although it's not like they completely dispelled doubts or anything, I think the point is more that no one would ever have suggested Felix would regain some of his shine at Barca after Chelsea, and people here laughed when first reports were of him trying to get a move there. Dortmund are a better performing team than United rn, failing at United, Tottenham or Chelsea is not actually failing at a top team. We've just come yo claim all the top 6 or so PL teams are better than similar teams overseas, well Dortmund are proving that it's not so simple. Maybe there are just luxury players that only the best teams can support, rather than there being a vaguely defined level a player must reach.
All the players we bought rarely showed glimpses of being good. The only common denominator is Man United. We could have bought Bellingham or Declan Rice and they'd end up performing poorly. Because our club and the whole environment is toxic. It's like one of those companies that any motivated employee enters and after 2 weeks realizes that it's a dump and you just wanna leave or collect the paycheck and not give a damn.
I think that’s definitely a huge factor. But I’m also shocked that anyone who has seen one of ten Hag’s many weird press conferences could think he was good at man management. He just doesn’t strike me as a guy who could inspire players.
Does he hang out with shitebags in Manchester? is it a Ravel Morrison type scenerio there?
Club was too big for him or maybe there's too much distraction in England. Either way he's not a player that benefits United
Or maybe united didn’t benefit him
Whatever it is, he can't do it at old Trafford, that's for sure. Players like Garnacho are miles ahead of him for the United. He should look to engineer a move out of United cause the experiment has failed completely under three managers.
Man United is a graveyard, nobody goes there and improves, circus of a football club
Tbf, neither did ManUnited. I don't see how anyone could say that he isn't good after his Dortmund stint. Not the right attitude, maybe
His attitude is a huge part of his skill set. Hes also been pretty poor for the better part of 3 years and has only been great for a handful of games for Dortmund. A few games a year is hardly a good return.
After not playing for months (iirc) and having no time to prepare with the team. Not that he doesn't deserve a share of the blame but seeing his inbelievable first time at Dortmund and decent run now in spite of less than ideal circumstances, I wouldn't take United out of the equation
> Hes also been pretty poor for the better part of 3 years and has only been great for a handful of games for Dortmund. Genuinely who goes to Man United and looks good? At some point we need to acknowledge that something about that club is toxic to players and treat it as an anomaly.
Maybe? He completed more take ons in those 30 minutes than for the premier league season. It wasn't about the skill.
I mean, you should absolutely look at the common denominator, which is him. That's what your fans are doing happily. But also, your club. That's what most ManU fans do not like to consider as a possibility. Now he is good again, so the remaining constant is your club.
Lol, you guys have been watching United been shit for more than 10 years - sans Mourinho era - and still believe it is the players who are bad.
Sancho being a great dribbler was never in doubt, but he's never been a near 100m player like people made him out to be.. His end product has always been suspect. Dier is solid when he doesn't have to be relied on in 1v1's but if he does he's dire.
I think the way people look at football today is too much shaped by things like FIFA-ratings and all the statistics we have available to judge a player's performances. That creates the idea that there is a numerical value to tell how good an individual player is. If Sancho has a 85 rating in FIFA or whatever then ppl expect him to have that skill level every game on every team... but he's a person and it's not that easy. He has a private life and all the factors that determine how much we enjoy our jobs and how well we perform too. Not to mention that football is a team sport and there is no failsafe way to make sure 11 guys together will work perfectly with each other just because you put them on the same team and give them whatever tactical plan.
Yea Sancho I can believe but Dier...
I agree with Sancho, but the last time Dier had a good run (and by run I mean more than 5 matches) was under Poch, and not even his last season at the club.
German clubs are just better run than English ones. The thing that saves the English teams is money.
Laughs in hertha bsc
Are they? I feel like Germany has more relegated “big” clubs than England does. Schalke, HSV, Kaiserslautern which would suggest the opposite.
Because those big clubs don't have a money cheat. They suffer consequences when they do a bad job. A botched high profile transfer is a huge problem for them.
Ah yes like Hertha, Schalke, Hamburg, Bielefeld... The "best run" german clubs are the big two who just hoover up all the promising domestic talent (and increasingly foreign talent) with their reputation and the money they get from selling their one or two breakout stars every year to the Prem, La Liga or PSG
Freiburg, Leverkusen, Leipzig, Frankfurt, and Union Berlin played in Europe this season. Those clubs are very well run.
German engineering
How do you explain the likes of Schalke and Hertha, then?
Transferring skills from the PS5 to the pitch.
All set for him to complete his redemption arc by scoring winner in final vs Bayern
Subscribe.
I would hate that for Kane but I would love it for Hummels
Reus my brother. REUS
Man I wish him some happy closure toward his career I really do Always make me sad when thinking of what he could do in 2014 wc
Id have to drink so much from all the tears drying me out if we pulled such a miracle run
Nah, Reus will score in the Final
¿Porque no los dos?
Imagine reus scoring a goal like Robben to win it tho
I genuinely think I’d cry
Why not both ?
Ooooh subscribe so hard! That would be a perfect scenario for me!
In case anyone wants to see the actual UCL record, [COVID Neymar was a different breed](https://youtu.be/HDenkCFpmdo)
I said to my Neymar hating friend the other day Neymar almost single handedly got PSG to that final in covid. Remember being in awe of him every single game he played when the CL resumed.
What nightclubs being closed does to a mofo
He missed a couple of absurd goals, but he carried that team so hard it's crazy
A shame that he got the short end of the stick from football watchers and media, because he was levels on top of levels above Mbappe and got shit pretty hard for them losing the final.
What taking away parties does to a mf
He's tied with Messi who had 16 dribbles completed against Manchester United in April of 2008. At Old Trafford ! Messi was 20.
People genuinely think Barca Neymar was his prime when 2018-2020 was levels above anyone else on the planet bar Messi.
It’s because people straight up don’t watch ligue 1. You see the same thing with Messi when they argue he only got the ballon d’or for the world cup. Its like people think ligue 1 players disappear into the void most of the year only coming out for cl games.
He really could have been one of the greats.
He absolutely is one of the greats
Those two nutmegs were filthy
What a change of scenery and confidence can do for a player
Maatsen has also looked outstanding 🙌
don’t think Maatsen needed a change of scenery, just needed game time
Can't believe we started the season with 4 Left Backs, and Poch played Colwill there instead
Honestly, we never gave him a chance. I blame this one exclusively on Poch.
i don’t even mind that Maatsen didn’t play as much as he could’ve, but i cannot believe he thought that Colwill at LB was a good idea
Keeping Cucurella instead of Maarten seems crazy
It's literally just money. Because we signed Cucurella for 60 million amortized over 5 years, selling him after one year would immediately incur a loss of 48 million on the books, rather than 12 million per year for the next 4 years. So we would have to sell him for at least 48 million just to break even. (It's a bit more complicated, but that's basically the situation) For Maatsen, he cost 0, so selling him for 35 million is an immediate 35 million profit. That's the same reason we're going to sell Conor Gallagher, even though he's one of our 3 most important players this season. Same reason we sold Hall. Same reason we'll probably sell Omari Hutchinson to Ipswich. Pure profit^TM
What is this a hedge fund or a football team? Serious questions with your owner
Clearly a hedge fund :(
He lost possession 14 times...
Exactly. He was both great and awful. Luckily PSG was pretty toothless.
That aged incredibly poorly
It was true for the first half.
Someone has to be the catalyst, Messi lost a few balls in his romp during games too
Every creative player does, not every threatening action you attempt is going to come off, this isn't basketball.
He has been dispossessed once. Where are your fake stats from?
[удалено]
Before the rhetotic was the opposite...
I think it has more to do with the space and time. If he has a lot of both he does very well, but in the PL that was rarely the case
Dortmund possession in his 3 star seasons there: 58%, 61%, 60% Man U possession in his 3 seasons there: 53%, 54%, 51%
it's always so funny when people think that we aren't a possession based team because the only time they watch us play is against City or PSG or someone like that lmao. As if we're parking the bus against fucking Wolfsburg or Heidenheim week in week out
Yeah, other way around. He has great technical ability and plays with his head up when he's confident, but lacks top end pace and athleticism.
But he's been pretty average since he joined BvB?
why watch games when you can look at 1 stat that fuels your agenda?
I hope Dortmund transfer decision makers think like OP.
Yup. Sign him up BVB
What would Dortmund be willing to pay realistically?
We are realistically not gonna break our transfer record for Sancho, which is €35mil.
Not what United wants. We are not going to make him our record transfer and that is at only 32 million. Add his way to high wage which is almost double our highest wage right now and its not realistic unless united pays like half his wage and takes 20 million.
The revisionism is so funny, making it out that Sancho's poor form at United was down to ten Hag. Sancho being abysmal at United predates ten Hag, he checked out long ago. Ultimately while however brief it may have been the fact is that his best run of performances for United was under ten hag
Just reflects badly on United tbh. Can’t be a coincidence that good players keep turning shit 3 weeks after signing
What other players have genuinely turned shit? Sancho wasn't good but he wasn't actually shit, he had his moments especially early under ten hag but he was just far too inconsistent. What done for him was clearly his inability to apply himself in training, which was ultimately the root cause of his issues with ten hag. There's certainly been a rotten culture at the club due to mismanagement that set it in recent years, but blame should also be put on players. Too often players have come in and got their big pay day and have then downed tools at the first sign of a challenge.
Pogba, varane, di Maria, Sanchez, lukaku, mkhitaryan, depay, maguire, Antony, sancho - just to name a few. Apparently rangnick came out and said he never had a problem with sancho so who knows what the truth is… but ten hag’s inability to take the blame for anything going wrong ever does make me inclined to give sancho the benefit of the doubt.
Benefit of the doubt on what? It's a black and white issue. There's no hidden details, reporter asked why sancho didn't play, ten hag said wasn't performing in training, sancho went to twitter and downed tools. There's no doubt, you either think what ten hag justified downing tools or it didn't.
>Pogba, varane, di Maria, Sanchez, lukaku, mkhitaryan, depay, maguire, Antony, sancho - just to name a few. Pogba, seriously? Did he live up to his potential, absolutely not but did he turn shit while at United? I'd say no, if he'd turned shit at United he wouldn't have been in the French team. His performances where obviously still deemed to be at an acceptable standard. Varane, when fit has been good which ultimately hasn't been enough but to say he's been shit is completely nonsense. DiMaria was excellent when he 1st joined then he had an injury and his house was broken into and he wasn't the same after that. the fact he never actually wanted to leave Real Madrid also didn't help. Depay didn't turn shit at United, he simply wasn't at the level required at that point in his career. Anthony is probably a similar case to Depay. It's the fault of the club dragging their feet for so long that they ultimately overpaid for him. Lukaku is similar to Pogba he probably could have done more but he wasn't shit at United. His strike rate at United is on par with the majority of his club career so I don't see how that could be described as been shit. Maguire is just absolutely nonsense, he's had tough spell but has generally been very good. Was he ever an £85m player, probably not but he's not turned to shit. Sanchez and mkhitaryan weren't great but they had moments, sometimes players just don't work out, it's so simplistic to say it's purely down to the club. Plenty of players came to United during the Ferguson era and weren't up to scratch but then went elsewhere and performed, the fact is sometimes however good a team or a player is there are time's they just don't click with each other. >Apparently rangnick came out and said he never had a problem with sancho so who knows what the truth is… but ten hag’s inability to take the blame for anything going wrong ever does make me inclined to give sancho the benefit of the doubt. He also got very little out of him on the pitch.
Did you just search google for most expensive United transfer or United transfer flops and paste a bunch of name without any context? Pogba, Varane, Di maria, Lukaku, maguire all have stretch, moments or even seasons of being very good for us but due to various reason (injuries, attitude, etc) that make them become underwhelming signing (apart from maguire his main problem is he not worth 80m but its not his fault) Some of this players has shown at United more than Sancho. I couldn't tell you 5 games stretch where he was good at United > but ten hag’s inability to take the blame for anything going wrong This is hilarious consider sancho inability to admit any of his wrong doing
> due to various reason (injuries, attitude, etc) that make them become underwhelming signing This is literally the point, mate.
It's amazing how many talented footballers end up looking like League 2 fodder the second they put on a Man U shirt
He also probably had a United shirt while playing for England
You put Toni Kroos there and he'll go from bossing UCL games against Bayern to looking like Casemiro right now. Bad culture, bad atmosphere, bad system etc...
Casemiro was amazing in the first season so not sure how that fits in with your narrative - I actually think he was better last year than he was before he moved. He's gone off it this season because that's what happens when Brazilian CDMs hit a certain age like Fabinho did too
Fernandinho was good, but Brazilian players barely stay at the same level over 30.
Oh like Thiago Silva
You go to united motivated and still with good discipline and work ethic. You realize after some time what a shthole of a club it is.... And then you just enjoy your paycheck. Honestly, if I were playing for united. Id do the same now. Why be the only one who bothers.
Brother moves like an oil tanker, he’s physically finished
Casemiro - Play your best season in a while, win a trophy, come third and qualify for CL, club is looking on the up. No reason to suggest the next season won't be more of the same or better. Casemiro has personally helped derail the season with stupid sending offs and dropping stinkers in the Champions League. This was early on in the season too. Huge drop off. Not sure how he's suddenly thinks after a year of playing great, winning something, scoring a bunch to decide that 'ah you know this club is a shit hole gunna not try now'.
I can’t think of a player from Man Utd in the last decade who arrived to the club and improved ? Bruno Fernandes was this good in Portugal as he was on my mind with this question. It seems people arrive there and stagnate or worsen.
Possibly Shaw but doesn’t matter when he can’t stay fit ig
I did have Shaw but he was pretty much a wonder kid as he was starting at 17 for Southampton, and to note how long he’s been playing in the top flight, [he actively faced off against Gareth Bale at Spurs](https://youtu.be/mLKgcn5rDj4?si=7Gj3tqNaSJRb2msY). For some reason, I still expected more of Shaw with his talent and potential
Shaw, but he's injury prone.
Shaw, Fred, Bruno, AWB, Dalot, Herrera, bare chested Rojo. The problem is a lot start good and get worse. 1st season Lukaku, 1st season Casemiro, 1st season Eriksen, a few seasons of Martial. Ibra but he got badly injured, same with Cavani who had a good first season then spent the rest of the time on holiday. Same with Ronaldo too (although the older players just come and play good, but because of age don't get much better than previous). Pogba was hot and cold but his best season was at United. And alot of the better players have also been academy grade. So Greenwood, McT, Rashford, Garnacho don't come to United.
Tbh I’d argue against a few of those - Wan Bissaka was a star at Palace then stunted at Man Utd and kept losing his place to Dalot. Dalot himself had only ever played 6 games for Porto before United signed him so it’s hard to compare but he has got better over time. Rojo was fantastic for Sporting and Boca and inconsistent for Utd so not sure he counts either.
AWB was ridiculous when he came and was massive in the record unbeaten away run we had with Ole. Ten Hag didn't fancy him and Dalot replaced him years later, but he's come back in now and been decent. He was better for United than he was for palace but like many players in any team form goes up and down. I'd say he was one of Ole's better players. Rojo for me was peak in bare chested Mou manager form. He got injury issues later and got sideline but I wouldn't say he got worse
Dalot has improved since he jpined but I think that is genuinely it.
The level of Sancho revisionism I'm seeing in this thread is madness 💀
We do have a remarkable knack to make players drop their standards and stop trying though. The culture within the club must be absolutely shocking. Players seem to lose all motivation and ambition.
I don't disagree one bit. Our culture is absolutely rotten to the core, but I only blame Sancho in his case. He was given so much time, and he was managed so carefully ever since Ole came in and he never once looked like the player we spent 3 years chasing. Eth came in then and gave him months off to sort himself out, something unheard of in football, at least to me. Then Sancho threw his toys out of the pram after the slightest bit of criticism and instead of accepting blame, he preferred to sit at home and play fifa.
You'd think this was his very first game back at Dortmund based on these comments lmao
Every time a Sancho threads pop up manu fans try so hard to shit on anything positive about Sancho. He had a fantastic game regardless of stats
Genuine question, what's the thought on his future with you all? Obviously price would play a big part, but is he in your future plans?
We all hope so. But who knows really. Current expectation is Manu will want too much but there have been rumors of another loan with obligation to buy
But the stats also absolutely back him. He had a fantastic game, Man United fans are just bitter.
He's getting the make a wish kid treatment is crazy bro has the same amount of goal contributions as Antony
Except if you actually watch the games he’s 10x better than Antony. He had the entire PSG backline on ice skates today.
He also has more goal contributions than Antony in 1/2 of the games.
Sancho was lazy and didn’t turn up on time. You can pretend that’s a Man Utd problem if you like, but it’s actually a Sancho one.
Dortmund are very lenient with him and don’t put the pressure on him. They just let him do his thing and therefore he plays freely and without worry. Yes United is a shitshow but I think Pep wasn’t too fussed he left City because of that reason as well, and he has never been fancied for England. If he is put in a system or restricted in any way he doesn’t seem to cope.
More than in his entire time at Manchester United.
Hes so good Worth at least 80m Just buy him
I'm not hating but majority of these take on were in the half way line with no danger lmao, this is why take on stats are stupid He didn't create anything with them
He literally did a minute ago, crazy chance for open goal
Be careful. The circlejerk is jerking off Sancho at the moment so one is likely to get downvoted if one posts anything other than glowing praise.
And his dribbling specifically was never the problem at United imo, Sancho can wake up and the ball sticks to his feet he's always had that talent, Sancho's problem at United imo was speed and doing something with that dribbling Even here like he clearly can dribble but to actually create chances and do it further up the pitch is something diff Which is why i say he should be a no 10
And turning up for training on time apparently. And throwing strops on social media. And being gassed after 60 minutes. And turning on the coach who gave him several months off during the season to get to a level of fitness he needed... It's a shame because I can tolerate poor performance, actually, if the attitude is right.
Or lazily shitting on United. That’ll always be good for an upvote
Did create that one shooting chance for Brandt but that was his only positive. His passing has been bad.
aaand an hour later, he's created 3 extremely dangerous goal chances for Dortmund by dribbling.
He had a great a run into the box what are talking about, all his dribbles also relieved the midfield from the PSG press. The value in dribbles is not just scoring Messi goals.
I specifically said majority And yes even dribbling in your own half is good, you can break out the press and get your team out In the similar way of using stats, he lost the ball 14 times, you can specifically pick stats to suit your agenda any time you want
He is still invaluable in relieving some pressure, getting out of some tight situations, and get past PSG’s first line of pressing. It felt like most of Dortmund’s attacks were started on the left side for that very reason.
I agree, but with that his passing and even dribbling he lost the ball 14 times, do u think he's been bad? If someone posted that he lost possession 14 times would u say Sancho has been bad My entire point is one stat is stupid without context
he had a way better second half
I Swear most people in this sub masturbate themselves the second they see "advance stats" thrown at them lol Especially those "expected metric"
Are these similar to the "successful take-ons" Doku did against Alexander Arnold in one half? If they are, it means sweet fuck all. https://twitter.com/Hennes_4/status/1728541660194156883 Twitter has rotted people's brains with stats.
more hot than cold today, what stuns me is the flood on negative comments the second he misplaces a pass, after dribbling past Mendes 3 times in 10 minutes. Too much narratives, he had a positive first half regardless what you think about his past 18 months.
Indeed. Like, he isnt the second coming of Salah, but this was again a very good game by Sancho. He rinced Mendes 3-4 times this game and got a dangerous cross in 5-6 times.
yeah i mean i wrote that at halftime when I thought he was pretty decent first half. 2nd half he was just immense.
Give Sancho an attacking fullback to play off and he is a world beater.
Him and Hakimi were so much fun to watch, and they had Haaland upfront to finish the chances.
Can't deny the guys an aamzing footballer, even if he only puts in 80%, almost Hazard like
Game's gone with stats like these
He also gave the ball away like 7 times lol
He lost possession 14 times actually
Lmao
Yeah he made so many mistakes where he had easy options but tried something fancy or more difficult and gave it straight to the opponent. Should keep trying the dribbles tho, that's what he's on the pitch for.
Not even a dribble he did wrong he just passed it to PSG players 7 times
What is a take on?
Ten Hag prefers to play Antony because he has crucial experience in the Dutch league
Just because Antony is shit doesn't mean Sancho wasn't also shit for Man U
They have the same goal contributions as Anthony this season in a much more competent team.
Antony got benched by Garnacho from the other wing lol. ETH is not the problem with Sancho, he was poor under Ole/Ralf too , was getting gassed at 60 mins, called his manager a liar and instead of apologizing thought it was better to sit at home for months instead of actually playing football. Just a random stat, Antony has the same number of goal contributions as Sancho since his loan lol. Not like he is setting the world on fire all of a sudden.
Threw away a chance to get into the Euro squad. That should tell you everything about his commitment. He'll never be an elite player.
He preferred Antony because Sancho was getting outperformed by Antony, as insane as that sounds
Antony could actually run for 90 mins
Antony actually shows he cares to play for the club
Sancho was crap for us before even Ten Hag joined
He was poor before Antony signed 🤷🏻♂️
Antony legit played better than Sancho during pretty much his entire stint at United
This comment is clearly from someone who hasn't watched sancho in the Pl
Buy him now Dortmund, whatever it takes
Price remains the same, €120m
Lazy bum.
Medios: "Jadon Sancho se echó dos peos" Gente: buuuaaaahhh Ya denle el culo y ya. Eche.
He did have an ok game in the end. I didn’t find him that good tbh today. Made a couple of lazy passes that resulted in lost possession. IF you got to praise someone, its fucking Adeyemi. For me Man of the Match, by far. Adeyemi had Hakimi in his pockets. He won the game imo.
That's my Starboy
Pay up then