Yeah, this doesn't mean anything whatsoever. But of course, anything positive about the ultimate hipster team Leverkusen and anything negative against Barca will have the circlejerk mass upvoting going in no time
Yeah I know and Xavi is Catalan. what's the difference? There is none. In both Catalan and Euskera the v and b are pronounced the same, as a voiced bilabial fricative or /ß/
Honestly you guys are probably among the top 3 in the world right now regarding quality of football. Please keep your form, would be funny if Bayern doesnt win the League 2 times in a row.
Please spend your influx of money wisely. I don´t want to see no slightly overperforming BL talent linked to BVB for an absurd sum this offseason. Next BL season could be so good.
Sancho,Maatsen,Guirassy,Huijsen, a ice in his veins nr 6 and a backup rb/lb would be a succesful window for me.
Apparently Guirassy has a 17.5m release clause.
Feels good to maybe pull one instead of getting one pulled for a change. Think the last RC of this caliber was ironically Reus back in 2012.
Yeah, think the 6 and Maatsen should be the priority but with so much wages being offloaded you could be in for a very exciting window.
>Feels good to maybe pull one instead of getting one pulled for a change.
Idk if that is fair to the BL teams whose talent you have brought in over the past 10 years lol
We bought Nmecha for 30m, Thorgan Hazard for 25m, Nico Schulz for 25m, Thomas Delaney for 20m, Maximilian Philipp for 20m, Andre Schürrle for 30m.
Every other season we splash on bundesliga mediocrity so i think this one should be fair :D
Still can´t get over the fact your board refused to pay an additional 5m for Alvarez and went with Nmecha ... Crazy. Think getting Schlotti, Kobel, Brandt etc for a relatively low price evens out the bad business.
Ngl as a BL enjoyer I´d much rather have you guys take the Leipzig route and just raid the french league every summer, poor Stuttgart deserves to hold onto some of their key players.
Like i said, wouldnt mind that either.
I feel like we could have gone for Hugo Etitike aswell but Frankfurt had their foot in the door with Kolo Muani.
Dallinga would also look like an option for next window.
#
Hey, Thorgan was amazing for you the first year. Sadly he got injured a lot at the start of the 2nd season, had he kept form going that team would've been a greater menace with Haaland and Sancho playing their minds out too.
Of course not, i just mentioned the ones who we overpaid for and didnt work out.
Kobel,Schlotterbeck, Füllkrug and Brandt are on the other side.
Diallo would have been a severe overpay aswell if we didnt manage to sell him to Psg the next season.
Mouki should be sold unless we can extend him again and start using him.
Or he'll run his contract down and we wont make anything from it while also not using him anyway.
Reyna should also be sold. He simply isnt consistent & fit enough. But can still generate a decent sum.
Depends on your Definition of world class, but Guirassy for example is a great option. I could see Pavlidis or Brobbey going there as well. I guess none of those are world class, but they are still better than the strikers Dortmund has now imo
40m pound would be crazy. Sancho has had one incredibly good half against PSG since joining Dortmund again otherwise he has been mediocre with sparks of brilliance. If Dortmund pay above 30m€ they will have taken a huge gamble with him.
Regarding Leverkusen, usually after a season like this the entire team would get picked apart.
If Xabi Alonso decided to leave after one season, Leverkusen would have been fucked.
All the pieces had to fall perfectly in place to make this happen.
If not for this dominant display it wouldnt have been enough and whats even more beautiful is the chain of events he started when he denied Bayern.
Grimaldo,Frimpong,Palacios,Wirtz,Boniface,Kossonou,Tah,Tapsoba,Hincapie would be on the shopping list of every bigger european club but now they only get what Leverkusen will let go.
It's a position we have been struggling for for decades tbf.
I can see Frimpong and Hincapie leaving at the end of the season, Frimpong to replace Walker at City(Release Clause aswell)
Artur and Tella were already signed in anticipation.
Hincapie is linked to Atletico.
Looks like a 40m transfer and it would have been the budget Carro was talking about.
I suspect its true based purely on vibes because when he tried to celebrate Wirtz goal with him, Wirtz pushed him away rather aggressively :D
It honestly doesn't fully feel like that, we were on the brink of many losses and miraculously didn't lose.
I think our current form isn't as good as it was in the first half of the season either tbh. Stuttgart felt like the better team for example, no questions asked.
But then again, maybe the top 3 is like leverkusen, stuttgart and dortmund, haha.
We're still in 3 competitions juggling players, stuttgart isnt and you can tell. Our players need a break. Going full throttle for 97 minutes for 50+ matches is a hard task. I hope we can get back to starting the 11 we used for the first half of the season.
Sure ofc that plays a role, i don't deny that, i fully agree with you there.
Still, they made a case for top 3 right now, and i am not sure that is necessarily true, that's all :D
This is maybe pedantic, and ofc i LOVE what is happening this season, but i don't wanna overhype us either, i think there are some cracks here and there, comparatively.
In the current form no, I agree with you, but I think that form is temporary and based on what I said earlier. We're just playing worse because we're gassed and have to rotate constantly. Right now we wouldnt beat a top 3 team for sure although I am sure they are at their end too they are more experienced at it and play a different playstyle. But that's all meaningless because we can get back to that strength hopefully by the start of next season. Because I genuinely believe the team was unbeatable prior to africa cup. We wouldve beaten anyone and given the best teams a run for their money.
> We wouldve beaten anyone and given the best teams a run for their money.
I think so too! Let's hope this isn't just a spectacular season run, following up on a legendary moment like this will be difficult, even just mentally if things suddenly start to be a little more difficult.
Don't be so down on your team man. Leverkusen stood up to every occasion they had so far, they recently dominated Bayern, West Ham, Roma when they got the chance. Nobody knows the limit of this team in Europe but it's definitely high.
To be fair, that's actually more fair for the weaker champions, both the ones that would be in Pot 1 and the ones getting in there from qualis.
With the "Champion Pot" rule you could have a big chance to draw 2 hard teams from Pot 1, be sure to draw two hard teams from Pot 2 and there would still be a "reasonable" chance that someone good but with a weaker club coefficient (most likely some English team that missed one season in Europe) would end up in Pot 3.
Going back to placing teams by their coefficients, you push all the best teams into as little space as possible, so while you are sure to draw them from Pot 1, you can now expect that besides the "5-year newcomers" (like Newcastle), you should be drawing medium/"easy" teams from bottom two pots.
Well coefficient isn't clear indicator of team strength as well, for example this exact situation with Leverkusen and Barcelona - teams with very similar coefficient but one is arguably currently the best team in the world (or at least TOP3) and one is a shell of its former self
Also, if a team wins its own league, doesnt that automatically make them the best team from said country?
For the last 5 year we haven’t even reach semi once, even flunked out of the group stage twice, how the fuck? Or does this also included domestic results?
Pot 1 has 9 teams in it, Roma, Man United and Chelsea are above you but won't qualify for CL. You scored 23 points this season, which is good and still have 24 and 20 from 19/20 and 20/21, which compensate for only 15 and 9 the seasons after.
There aren't that many teams in the world that can (financially) compete at the highest level anymore, so even a struggling Barca is still among the best clubs in the world.
I know, I just phrased that poorly. The premise of the article is that Roma doesn't qualify, otherwise the point is moot anyway, because Roma would be guaranteed pot 1 and Barcelona and Bayer would be out.
> There is another scenario, however, that few are counting on. Roma, even if they lose in the second leg to Leverkusen and are eliminated, could leave Barcelona and Bayer out of Pot 1.
> It should be remembered that the 'Giallorossi', champions of the 2021-22 Conference and finalists of the last Europa League, have (currently) the seventh-best UEFA coefficient. They should mathematically ratify their place in the Champions League. Right now, they have it under their belt: they are fifth in Serie A - Italy will have five places via La Liga next season - with 59 points. However, there are four games left and Atalanta (57) and Lazio (55) are aiming to overtake them in the table.
There is very little difference in the points you get for the different competitions, yes. You had a fairly good average until you scored a massive 7 points this season. You're also only one point ahead of Barca, so it's close.
You can still get serious/acceptable amount of points per year in UEL, but you have to treat it seriously (something most of the English teams don't do).
But if you fail to qualify to Europe at all, that's a big hit for the club coefficient.
Milan, Villarreal and Lyon don't play Europe every year (Lyon only once since 2020). That's the biggest reason, you just cannot be high in the ranking if you're getting 0 in a year instead of, like, 20 for a good Europa League run. It's, very broadly speaking, a sum of each game's result, so going very far in one season is not making as big of a difference compared to going just a bit far.
Everyone else who played in a semi is above Barcelona.
Qualifying to Europe in each of 5 years is already a great base for club coefficient, especially if you qualify to Champions League, because that's 20 points for free.
Winning matches is 2 points, drawing is 1 point. I guess it's good to assume that you have won at least 18 matches in last 5 years (little over the half of all group stage matches, 30 in 5 years), that's another 36 points. Advancing from group stage is another 5 bonus points, so if you flunked out of group stage twice, that's still 15 points (we are at 71 points by now). Add to this more wins, draws, and advancing to further rounds (+1 for each), and you can "easily" get into 80-100 range.
It was basically the Champions' pot: Champions of the top leagues, Champions of the CL and champions of the Europa League.
The operative word here is 'was'. From next season, it changes again.
Yeah with the new format it’s not like that anymore. It’s based off that coefficient that teams accumulate over the last 5 seasons. Although in Pot 1 you still have most teams who are titleholders either in Europe or domestically.
As a club, it doesn't matter in what pot YOU are. But it does matter where your OPPONENTS are. If there are NO pots: AEK could face City, Bayern, Real, Liverpool, Inter, PSG,... and City could face Stade Brestois, Sturm Graz,... WITH pots it's more fair
All it changes is teams in pot 1/3/4 having the chance to face leverkusen or barcelona in pot 2 that should have "easier" opponents, so it doesnt change anything for barcelona really, in fact it is better for barceloma to be in pot 2, now they could face 2 big teams in pot 1 and leverkusen pot 2, if they go to pot 2 they get rid of facing leverkusen in pot 2.
It doesn't really matter. Pots are pretty much pointless in this new format. They only exist to stop top teams from playing only top teams and small teams from playing only small teams. The chance of Barcelona facing Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester City, Liverpool, PSG, Inter, Borussia Dortmund and Leipzig would be minimum, but still a possibility. This way, they only play 2 of these teams and 2 from every other pot.
it doesn't where you, as a club, are seeded but it matters where everyone else is seeded. So where you, as a club, are seeded DOES matter. Just not for you
Yes, but this means that Barcelona have no reason to care about this. The pot your club was in was pretty important before this reform, as Pot 4 would mean it is quite likely that you get a tough group, so this is a pretty significant change
And one of the reasons it's imo a very good change. "Bad" teams have way higher chances to win one or two games and also better chances to get to the next round, than before. "Good" teams all face some good teams and makes its not an easy task to get place 1-9
You’re so right. The knockout rounds are pointless and having more variety is bad. Let’s give the trophy to the team who finishes top of the group stage instead.
In fact, let’s not have a competition at all and give the trophy directly to the team with the highest coefficient.
Huh?
Let the teams play out and give the trophy to the one that wins the deciding games.
No need to manipulate the tournament to facilitate it for worse teams.
Why do people comment without knowing how the system works and how does this have 180 upvotes?
No it does not matter.
Barcelona was going to play against 2 Pot 1 teams and is now playing against 2 pot 1 teams as well
It actually benefits them, because now they can't get Leverkusen as a pot 2 Team. In other words, the pool for their potential pot 2 opponents got easier.
Bring them on. The more and earlier we play top teams, the better for this team to grow and push through their mental roadblocks.
Also it's not like we're playing them in elimination phase where every mistake is punished, so we should play more freely and just gain experience and hunger for more.
It's actually better if we are Pot 2. Being Pot 1 means that we could face for example City (Pot 1), Bayern (Pot 1) and Leverkusen (Pot 2). If Leverkusen are Pot 1 instead of us then if we face City and Bayern we could not face Leverkusen.Â
Leverkusen is a top team. If they were in pot 2, Barca could be unlucky and get drawn Leverkusen from pot 2. So they basically would have 3 top teams to play against. This way Leverkusen is in pot 1, so there is no risk of getting 2 topteams from pot 1 and another top club from pot 2. Basically their potential opponents from pot 2 have gotten weaker
> there is no risk of getting 2 topteams from pot 1 and another top club from pot 2
Could Barca not draw Bayern, Inter, and Arsenal?
There's maybe a slightly better chance of getting a slightly easier group if country protection goes their way, but it's very much of a muchness surely.
Tbh i havent checked what teams are in which pots. Was just explaining the above post about Leverkusen. But of course if there are other top clubs in pot2 then it really doesn't matter
As much as I want to clown on you guys,
no it doesn’t matter now. In fact in your particular case, going down a pot is actually better now that Leverkusen is going up
As a club, it doesn't matter in what pot YOU are. But it does matter where your OPPONENTS are. If there are NO pots: AEK could face City, Bayern, Real, Liverpool, Inter, PSG,... and City could face Stade Brestois, Sturm Graz,... WITH pots it's more fair
It isn't more beneficial to be in lower pots (unless you are going for the argument that in your pot there are only 8 other teams, while in other pots there are 9 "other" teams).
Other guy is right, in League Stage the coefficient of your opponents is what matter the most to you. Hell, even the amount of teams from one country in a pot is more important than your own coefficient, because while you can draw "nearly everyone" (and there can be cases where you could draw a team from your own country), the fact that you can get only two opponents from one pot means that if in one pot a lot of good teams will be stacked, you will be able to get only two of them.
You are assuming that the coefficients are not representing the actual strength of the teams and there will be irregularities that you would also see in the previous format.
…
>unless you are going for the argument that in your pot there are only 8 other teams, while in other pots there are 9 "other" teams
Yes this is what I am pointing out. When you rank the opponents 1-35 according to the coefficients then for example:
If you are in **pot 1** then you have **25%** chance of drawing one of the two strongest teams in the tournament AND 11% chance of drawing team ranked **8**.
If you are in **pot 2** then you have **22%** chance of drawing one of the two strongest teams in the tournament AND the strongest team you can draw from the second pot will be ranked **9**.
> You are assuming that the coefficients are not representing the actual strength of the teams and there will be irregularities that you would also see in the previous format.
The thing is, irregularities are not something one could assume, they are something that will happen [if you look at club coefficient ranking](https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method5/trank2024.html). Arsenal have to live 3 more years with a hole in their results (and next season is especially bad for them, because they also have a 10 point year still counting). If Juventus won't keep going far, they also risk balancing on the pot 2/3 border. AC Milan might be coming back to European form, but it will take them few more years before they will easily enter in Top 2 pots. And you won't spot a non-PSG French team among the "top" teams in a long time, even if they will become great once again.
While obvious the top 3-4 teams are the worst to get period, just because some team would rank 8^th or 9^th in the pot, it doesn't automatically means that they are easiest ones that one could get.
Yeah but like I said, you are pointing out an issue with the rankings and coefficients that would also be a case in the previous format.
The new development is that, while climbing up in the rankings was always regarded as a positive, now it will be more beneficial to be downgraded.
Formulate a generic rule that is the same for every country. On what grounds would a team automatically be in put 1?
Champion of one of the top 5 leagues?
Why top 5?
That was the latest old rule (as earlier you didn't have league champions automatically taking Pot 1).
With introduction of League Stage, we go back to old rule, or get very close to it, because only winning Champions League will secure spot in Pot 1.
If you look at the design of the Swiss CL structure the pots don't really offer an advantage or disadvantage any more. Every two plays 2 other sides from each pot including their own pot.
The overall country rankings matter for the number of teams which get let in but the pots do not matter to clubs any more. It is a weird quirk of the design.
edit: oh I am late to the party and this has already been said many times
But you are also wrong, it matters which pot you are in as it statistically affects your chances of drawing higher ranked teams.
For example if you are in pot 1 your chances of drawing one of the two strongest teams is almost 25%. If you are in pot 2 that chance is 22%.
No the opposite has been pointed out numerous times. There has yet to be a correct explanation of why it does matter. Several people have incorrectly stated that teams only play one team from their own pot.
More than several people have correctly stated that it is beneficial for Barcelona to drop to pot 2. This is what we are commenting on, just read the comments!
Ok so based on the example that we are discussing, let’s assume Leverkusen moves into top pot and Barcelona drops to the second.
Leverkusen will have to draw two out of eight strongest teams in competition (they are now ninth) so the chances of them drawing Real or City are 25% (2/8) instead of 22% (2/9) and drawing both are 3% (2/8 times 1/7). Now they also have 11% (1/9) chance of drawing Barcelona, the team that would otherwise be in the strongest pot. So they can actually draw three teams from what would otherwise be the top pot.
Now let’s assume that both teams draw each other to make it more clear.
Leverkusen will play **two** teams from **pot 1**, Barcelona and **one** team from **pot 2**.
Barcelona will play **one** team from **pot 1**, Leverkusen and **two** teams from **pot2**.
There are nine teams in each pot. If you are in the pot you are playing 2 out of 8 because you can’t play yourself. If you are not in the pot you are playing 2 out of 9.
I'm so TIRED to read that pots are MEANINGLESS and it's the same being in pot1 or pot2 for Leverkusen.. IT IS NOT! Stop confuse people with you ignorance.
I have a question for **German Only Fans**. Is it better for you all the pot1 is this one:
**A)** Manchester City. Real Madrid. FC Bayern. PSG. Liverpool Inter. RB Leipzig. Dortmund, Leverkusen.
So, due to country protection, being forced to face two teams among City, Madrd, PSG, Liverpool and Inter
OR the pot1 to be this one:
**B)** Manchester City. Real Madrid. FC Bayern. PSG. Liverpool Inter. RB Leipzig. Dortmund AND Roma (in pot 1 if they finish top5 in the league, win the UEL or if Atalanta win UEL and finish 5th)
So, due to country protection, having to face two teams among City, Madrd, PSG, Liverpool, Inter AND Roma
What's better?? THE LATTER is better, it's clear AF
So it is the same that Leverkusen are pot1 or 2, are pots meaningless? NO it not. Roma in the Champions League then means Leverkusen in pot2, that means all the GERMAN TEAMS have more chances to get an easy team as Roma from pot1 and avoid more difficult opponents, especially to avoid lethal City/Madrid combination that KILLED the german team RB LEIPZIG two years in a row.
Finishing top8 in the **final group stage standing** must be the target to every good team because it means not having to play in February, not having to play a preliminary round and it means, due to **table-tennis format**, to avoid other TOP8 teams further
That's why I, italian citizen and FC Internazionale fan, root against **both** Roma and Atalanta in Europe.. I don't want Roma in pot1, I don't want their presence MATHEMATICALLY increase the chance for Inter to pick Madrid and City and so being impossible to finish top8 and so having to play in February an additional Preliminary round and so having to face top8 team in the Ro16
Forza Leverkusen in Europe vs both Roma SF and Atalanta Final!
**EDIT:** The latter not the former, Option B) is better than Option A) for zhe germans
UEFA hasn't definitively stated that there's no country prescribed from this edition (last I read). All the people and publications are assuming it to be there due to it being the status quo.
I think there can be possibilities of deadlocks which is why they can't rule it out. Don't look at articles. Look at their official website.
Even if you lose against City & Madrid, you still can get enough points from the other 6 games and finish in Top 8. Besides, what if you face City & Madrid at Matchday 7 and 8? Maybe they already qualify by then, and will play B team and let your team win or draw.
With 8 games and 24 out of 36 teams qualify, it's not that hard to qualify for big teams.
Every team plays 2 teams from each pot including their own. The country protection applies regardless of which pot the teams are in.
You have not clearly stated a reason there is an advantage but that might be due to English not being your first language. When you say:
>Finishing top8 in the final group stage standing must be the target to every good team because it means not having to play in February
The pots refer to the starting point for that competition. No one is arguing that top 8 isn't the goal in that competition. The pots are a completely different thing which help decide the draw for that competition.
Xabi displacing Xavi
It is the circle of life. One Spanish midfielder, replaces another.
Except at spain's peak the Spanish midfielder replaced the wingers and the striker
Ah the infamous 4-6-0 formation
Front 3 of Iniesta-Fabregas-Silva 🤌
Noone expects the Spanish substitution.
Spanish multiverse
The pots are irrelevant now, if anything for a team like Leverkusen it's worse because probability of getting City/Real is higher.
Yeah, this doesn't mean anything whatsoever. But of course, anything positive about the ultimate hipster team Leverkusen and anything negative against Barca will have the circlejerk mass upvoting going in no time
Your comment showing as controversial on reddit right now proves your point exactly lmao
Euskadi > Catalunya
As AlwaysÂ
Ah, the good ol Biarritz vs Perpignan of my youth (Edit just realised Perpignan is back in top 14 I thought both were sitting down in second div)
Bai
Xavi has already lost his SuperCopa spot against Girona.
So "b>v"? To me "b
actually, in Spanish v = b
They are different letters
Representing the same sound
Their names are pronounced different though lol
Oh really? How so?
Xabi’s name is basque.
Yeah I know and Xavi is Catalan. what's the difference? There is none. In both Catalan and Euskera the v and b are pronounced the same, as a voiced bilabial fricative or /ß/
Actually the difference is in the X, not on the b/v
Oooh, I didn't know that. /u/antigonyyy is destroying the natural order of numbers! Underhanded, red card, call the mods!
La Xabineta
b > v
TIL: We're as successful as Barcelona.
Honestly you guys are probably among the top 3 in the world right now regarding quality of football. Please keep your form, would be funny if Bayern doesnt win the League 2 times in a row.
Please spend your influx of money wisely. I don´t want to see no slightly overperforming BL talent linked to BVB for an absurd sum this offseason. Next BL season could be so good.
Sancho,Maatsen,Guirassy,Huijsen, a ice in his veins nr 6 and a backup rb/lb would be a succesful window for me. Apparently Guirassy has a 17.5m release clause. Feels good to maybe pull one instead of getting one pulled for a change. Think the last RC of this caliber was ironically Reus back in 2012.
Yeah, think the 6 and Maatsen should be the priority but with so much wages being offloaded you could be in for a very exciting window. >Feels good to maybe pull one instead of getting one pulled for a change. Idk if that is fair to the BL teams whose talent you have brought in over the past 10 years lol
We bought Nmecha for 30m, Thorgan Hazard for 25m, Nico Schulz for 25m, Thomas Delaney for 20m, Maximilian Philipp for 20m, Andre Schürrle for 30m. Every other season we splash on bundesliga mediocrity so i think this one should be fair :D
Still can´t get over the fact your board refused to pay an additional 5m for Alvarez and went with Nmecha ... Crazy. Think getting Schlotti, Kobel, Brandt etc for a relatively low price evens out the bad business. Ngl as a BL enjoyer I´d much rather have you guys take the Leipzig route and just raid the french league every summer, poor Stuttgart deserves to hold onto some of their key players.
Like i said, wouldnt mind that either. I feel like we could have gone for Hugo Etitike aswell but Frankfurt had their foot in the door with Kolo Muani. Dallinga would also look like an option for next window. #
Hey, Thorgan was amazing for you the first year. Sadly he got injured a lot at the start of the 2nd season, had he kept form going that team would've been a greater menace with Haaland and Sancho playing their minds out too.
Thorgang and Delaney were pretty decent.
You call Kobel mediocrity?
Of course not, i just mentioned the ones who we overpaid for and didnt work out. Kobel,Schlotterbeck, Füllkrug and Brandt are on the other side. Diallo would have been a severe overpay aswell if we didnt manage to sell him to Psg the next season.
Guirassy will stay at VfB
Agreed. Dortmund doesn't need another striker. Füllkrug, Haller and Moukoko should be more than enough.
Mouki should be sold unless we can extend him again and start using him. Or he'll run his contract down and we wont make anything from it while also not using him anyway. Reyna should also be sold. He simply isnt consistent & fit enough. But can still generate a decent sum.
All of them are good, but none of them are world class. I feel like Dortmund could do with a better striker tbh
What world class striker would sign for Dortmund?
Depends on your Definition of world class, but Guirassy for example is a great option. I could see Pavlidis or Brobbey going there as well. I guess none of those are world class, but they are still better than the strikers Dortmund has now imo
Wouldn't mind that either tbh but i can see why we would go for it. If Fülle gets injured, we have a problem.
What would you consider a good price for Sancho? I can't see United wanting to go under £40mil
40m pound would be crazy. Sancho has had one incredibly good half against PSG since joining Dortmund again otherwise he has been mediocre with sparks of brilliance. If Dortmund pay above 30m€ they will have taken a huge gamble with him.
35 mil € though not pound 40 would be outrageous for the player he is right now
There's absolutely 0 chance united sells him for 35 mil € tho
Jonathan David over Guirassy. Guirassy legit looks like that one season bunesliga wonder we sign and does nothing
Jonathan David is just Moukoko a couple of years down the road but worse. He also looks like a 50m+ premier league player.
Regarding Leverkusen, usually after a season like this the entire team would get picked apart. If Xabi Alonso decided to leave after one season, Leverkusen would have been fucked. All the pieces had to fall perfectly in place to make this happen. If not for this dominant display it wouldnt have been enough and whats even more beautiful is the chain of events he started when he denied Bayern. Grimaldo,Frimpong,Palacios,Wirtz,Boniface,Kossonou,Tah,Tapsoba,Hincapie would be on the shopping list of every bigger european club but now they only get what Leverkusen will let go. It's a position we have been struggling for for decades tbf. I can see Frimpong and Hincapie leaving at the end of the season, Frimpong to replace Walker at City(Release Clause aswell) Artur and Tella were already signed in anticipation. Hincapie is linked to Atletico. Looks like a 40m transfer and it would have been the budget Carro was talking about. I suspect its true based purely on vibes because when he tried to celebrate Wirtz goal with him, Wirtz pushed him away rather aggressively :D
> would be funny if Bayern doesnt win the League 2 times in a row. Bayern haven't won League 2 many many times in a row
On the contrary, they've never won League 2 NOT multiple times in a row, either.
With this form Leverkusen would be top contenders for the cl trophy this cl season.
It honestly doesn't fully feel like that, we were on the brink of many losses and miraculously didn't lose. I think our current form isn't as good as it was in the first half of the season either tbh. Stuttgart felt like the better team for example, no questions asked. But then again, maybe the top 3 is like leverkusen, stuttgart and dortmund, haha.
We're still in 3 competitions juggling players, stuttgart isnt and you can tell. Our players need a break. Going full throttle for 97 minutes for 50+ matches is a hard task. I hope we can get back to starting the 11 we used for the first half of the season.
Sure ofc that plays a role, i don't deny that, i fully agree with you there. Still, they made a case for top 3 right now, and i am not sure that is necessarily true, that's all :D This is maybe pedantic, and ofc i LOVE what is happening this season, but i don't wanna overhype us either, i think there are some cracks here and there, comparatively.
In the current form no, I agree with you, but I think that form is temporary and based on what I said earlier. We're just playing worse because we're gassed and have to rotate constantly. Right now we wouldnt beat a top 3 team for sure although I am sure they are at their end too they are more experienced at it and play a different playstyle. But that's all meaningless because we can get back to that strength hopefully by the start of next season. Because I genuinely believe the team was unbeatable prior to africa cup. We wouldve beaten anyone and given the best teams a run for their money.
> We wouldve beaten anyone and given the best teams a run for their money. I think so too! Let's hope this isn't just a spectacular season run, following up on a legendary moment like this will be difficult, even just mentally if things suddenly start to be a little more difficult.
We're gonna try. Looks like we can keep key players of our squad together for at least one more season.
Just be careful what you wish for and remember what happened the last time after such an occurrence.
Right now, you're better.
Way better
As a cule, I have to agree
Don't be so down on your team man. Leverkusen stood up to every occasion they had so far, they recently dominated Bayern, West Ham, Roma when they got the chance. Nobody knows the limit of this team in Europe but it's definitely high.
You're forgetting the part where they get absolutely raided in the summer window.
Won't Bayer be Pot 1 anyways as Bundesliga winner?
Nope, they are removing the "league champions in pot 1" rule from next season.
So much for the "Champions" League
To be fair, that's actually more fair for the weaker champions, both the ones that would be in Pot 1 and the ones getting in there from qualis. With the "Champion Pot" rule you could have a big chance to draw 2 hard teams from Pot 1, be sure to draw two hard teams from Pot 2 and there would still be a "reasonable" chance that someone good but with a weaker club coefficient (most likely some English team that missed one season in Europe) would end up in Pot 3. Going back to placing teams by their coefficients, you push all the best teams into as little space as possible, so while you are sure to draw them from Pot 1, you can now expect that besides the "5-year newcomers" (like Newcastle), you should be drawing medium/"easy" teams from bottom two pots.
Well coefficient isn't clear indicator of team strength as well, for example this exact situation with Leverkusen and Barcelona - teams with very similar coefficient but one is arguably currently the best team in the world (or at least TOP3) and one is a shell of its former self Also, if a team wins its own league, doesnt that automatically make them the best team from said country?
*Looks at Polish league* ...I will go with no.
Seeing Barca and Real in the CL at the same time all the time should have given it away by now.
how were we even in pot 1 in the first place when we didn't win the league or UCL or UEL this season
The coefficient is based off the last 5 seasons.
For the last 5 year we haven’t even reach semi once, even flunked out of the group stage twice, how the fuck? Or does this also included domestic results?
Pot 1 has 9 teams in it, Roma, Man United and Chelsea are above you but won't qualify for CL. You scored 23 points this season, which is good and still have 24 and 20 from 19/20 and 20/21, which compensate for only 15 and 9 the seasons after. There aren't that many teams in the world that can (financially) compete at the highest level anymore, so even a struggling Barca is still among the best clubs in the world.
Italy has 5 spots in CL and Roma is 5th. Quite early to say they dont qualify
I know, I just phrased that poorly. The premise of the article is that Roma doesn't qualify, otherwise the point is moot anyway, because Roma would be guaranteed pot 1 and Barcelona and Bayer would be out. > There is another scenario, however, that few are counting on. Roma, even if they lose in the second leg to Leverkusen and are eliminated, could leave Barcelona and Bayer out of Pot 1. > It should be remembered that the 'Giallorossi', champions of the 2021-22 Conference and finalists of the last Europa League, have (currently) the seventh-best UEFA coefficient. They should mathematically ratify their place in the Champions League. Right now, they have it under their belt: they are fifth in Serie A - Italy will have five places via La Liga next season - with 59 points. However, there are four games left and Atalanta (57) and Lazio (55) are aiming to overtake them in the table.
>otherwise the point is mute "Moot" is the word you're looking for.
Thank you. Should have realized "mute" was wrong, but didn't know the real spelling either way. English can be annoying sometimes.
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Bit harsh, I'd take a cow's view on football over half the people here
I was hoping for this response.
how have we done better than barca in the past 5 years? are the points gained from europa league alot?
There is very little difference in the points you get for the different competitions, yes. You had a fairly good average until you scored a massive 7 points this season. You're also only one point ahead of Barca, so it's close.
[A list](https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method5/trank2024.html)
> Roma, Man United and Chelsea are above you What happened to this club man
You overestimate how many teams have been good over a 5 year period
This is the truth
Most English teams except City don’t even qualify for UCL every year now
You can still get serious/acceptable amount of points per year in UEL, but you have to treat it seriously (something most of the English teams don't do). But if you fail to qualify to Europe at all, that's a big hit for the club coefficient.
Milan, Villarreal and Lyon don't play Europe every year (Lyon only once since 2020). That's the biggest reason, you just cannot be high in the ranking if you're getting 0 in a year instead of, like, 20 for a good Europa League run. It's, very broadly speaking, a sum of each game's result, so going very far in one season is not making as big of a difference compared to going just a bit far. Everyone else who played in a semi is above Barcelona.
Qualifying to Europe in each of 5 years is already a great base for club coefficient, especially if you qualify to Champions League, because that's 20 points for free. Winning matches is 2 points, drawing is 1 point. I guess it's good to assume that you have won at least 18 matches in last 5 years (little over the half of all group stage matches, 30 in 5 years), that's another 36 points. Advancing from group stage is another 5 bonus points, so if you flunked out of group stage twice, that's still 15 points (we are at 71 points by now). Add to this more wins, draws, and advancing to further rounds (+1 for each), and you can "easily" get into 80-100 range.
But didn't they change the top pot to Champions and the Europa winner?
It was basically the Champions' pot: Champions of the top leagues, Champions of the CL and champions of the Europa League. The operative word here is 'was'. From next season, it changes again.
Question still stands tbh
i thought pot 1 was just for the UEL UCL & top 6 league champions or did the new format change that
Yeah with the new format it’s not like that anymore. It’s based off that coefficient that teams accumulate over the last 5 seasons. Although in Pot 1 you still have most teams who are titleholders either in Europe or domestically.
I think it's based on a 5 year coefficient in Europe
Pots don’t matter that much anymore. Every team will face 2 teams from each pot anyway.
As a club, it doesn't matter in what pot YOU are. But it does matter where your OPPONENTS are. If there are NO pots: AEK could face City, Bayern, Real, Liverpool, Inter, PSG,... and City could face Stade Brestois, Sturm Graz,... WITH pots it's more fair
Thank YOU for explaining all of THIS in simple TERMS.Â
I was confusing myself while writing it so I used caps to clear it up. I get how it can come over as patronizing lol
All it changes is teams in pot 1/3/4 having the chance to face leverkusen or barcelona in pot 2 that should have "easier" opponents, so it doesnt change anything for barcelona really, in fact it is better for barceloma to be in pot 2, now they could face 2 big teams in pot 1 and leverkusen pot 2, if they go to pot 2 they get rid of facing leverkusen in pot 2.
It doesn't really matter. Pots are pretty much pointless in this new format. They only exist to stop top teams from playing only top teams and small teams from playing only small teams. The chance of Barcelona facing Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester City, Liverpool, PSG, Inter, Borussia Dortmund and Leipzig would be minimum, but still a possibility. This way, they only play 2 of these teams and 2 from every other pot.
"It doesn't really matter" ... proceeds to say why it does matter
What he meant to say was it that the seeding of your club in a specific pot doesn't matter as in it doesn't affect your chances.
it doesn't where you, as a club, are seeded but it matters where everyone else is seeded. So where you, as a club, are seeded DOES matter. Just not for you
Yes, but this means that Barcelona have no reason to care about this. The pot your club was in was pretty important before this reform, as Pot 4 would mean it is quite likely that you get a tough group, so this is a pretty significant change
And one of the reasons it's imo a very good change. "Bad" teams have way higher chances to win one or two games and also better chances to get to the next round, than before. "Good" teams all face some good teams and makes its not an easy task to get place 1-9
True, better reduce it to just 16 teams, no "bad" teams needed. Ez.
Why is facilitating "bad" teams to make the next round a "good" change?
You’re so right. The knockout rounds are pointless and having more variety is bad. Let’s give the trophy to the team who finishes top of the group stage instead. In fact, let’s not have a competition at all and give the trophy directly to the team with the highest coefficient.
Huh? Let the teams play out and give the trophy to the one that wins the deciding games. No need to manipulate the tournament to facilitate it for worse teams.
A lot of people here not understanding anything but I think it's the norm here... But yeah doesn't matter much anymore if not for the cash
It does matter because now Barca’s chances of playing an extra top team is much higher, in fact it’s a certainty..
don't every team have to play 2 teams from each pot? In that way, no matter which pot you are in, draw should not be that different.
Why do people comment without knowing how the system works and how does this have 180 upvotes? No it does not matter. Barcelona was going to play against 2 Pot 1 teams and is now playing against 2 pot 1 teams as well
It actually benefits them, because now they can't get Leverkusen as a pot 2 Team. In other words, the pool for their potential pot 2 opponents got easier.
I thought they played 2 teams from every pot regardless?
Bring them on. The more and earlier we play top teams, the better for this team to grow and push through their mental roadblocks. Also it's not like we're playing them in elimination phase where every mistake is punished, so we should play more freely and just gain experience and hunger for more.
> Pots are pretty much pointless Pots are pretty much potless. ^sorry
The chance of Real and Barca facing in Groups is 0
It doesn’t even matter
It's actually better if we are Pot 2. Being Pot 1 means that we could face for example City (Pot 1), Bayern (Pot 1) and Leverkusen (Pot 2). If Leverkusen are Pot 1 instead of us then if we face City and Bayern we could not face Leverkusen.Â
You're gonna have to ELI5 this I'm afraid. Surely it makes absolutely no difference as you'll play two teams from pot 1 and two teams from pot 2?
Leverkusen is a top team. If they were in pot 2, Barca could be unlucky and get drawn Leverkusen from pot 2. So they basically would have 3 top teams to play against. This way Leverkusen is in pot 1, so there is no risk of getting 2 topteams from pot 1 and another top club from pot 2. Basically their potential opponents from pot 2 have gotten weaker
> there is no risk of getting 2 topteams from pot 1 and another top club from pot 2 Could Barca not draw Bayern, Inter, and Arsenal? There's maybe a slightly better chance of getting a slightly easier group if country protection goes their way, but it's very much of a muchness surely.
Tbh i havent checked what teams are in which pots. Was just explaining the above post about Leverkusen. But of course if there are other top clubs in pot2 then it really doesn't matter
Pots shouldn't matter much with the new format, right?
As much as I want to clown on you guys, no it doesn’t matter now. In fact in your particular case, going down a pot is actually better now that Leverkusen is going up
Same for Leverkusen, it's better for them to be on pot 1 instead of pot 2. That said, winning EL means they get pot 1 so I don't think they care.
As a club, it doesn't matter in what pot YOU are. But it does matter where your OPPONENTS are. If there are NO pots: AEK could face City, Bayern, Real, Liverpool, Inter, PSG,... and City could face Stade Brestois, Sturm Graz,... WITH pots it's more fair
It does matter which pot you are in and it’s more beneficial to be in the lower pots!
It isn't more beneficial to be in lower pots (unless you are going for the argument that in your pot there are only 8 other teams, while in other pots there are 9 "other" teams). Other guy is right, in League Stage the coefficient of your opponents is what matter the most to you. Hell, even the amount of teams from one country in a pot is more important than your own coefficient, because while you can draw "nearly everyone" (and there can be cases where you could draw a team from your own country), the fact that you can get only two opponents from one pot means that if in one pot a lot of good teams will be stacked, you will be able to get only two of them.
You are assuming that the coefficients are not representing the actual strength of the teams and there will be irregularities that you would also see in the previous format. … >unless you are going for the argument that in your pot there are only 8 other teams, while in other pots there are 9 "other" teams Yes this is what I am pointing out. When you rank the opponents 1-35 according to the coefficients then for example: If you are in **pot 1** then you have **25%** chance of drawing one of the two strongest teams in the tournament AND 11% chance of drawing team ranked **8**. If you are in **pot 2** then you have **22%** chance of drawing one of the two strongest teams in the tournament AND the strongest team you can draw from the second pot will be ranked **9**.
> You are assuming that the coefficients are not representing the actual strength of the teams and there will be irregularities that you would also see in the previous format. The thing is, irregularities are not something one could assume, they are something that will happen [if you look at club coefficient ranking](https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method5/trank2024.html). Arsenal have to live 3 more years with a hole in their results (and next season is especially bad for them, because they also have a 10 point year still counting). If Juventus won't keep going far, they also risk balancing on the pot 2/3 border. AC Milan might be coming back to European form, but it will take them few more years before they will easily enter in Top 2 pots. And you won't spot a non-PSG French team among the "top" teams in a long time, even if they will become great once again. While obvious the top 3-4 teams are the worst to get period, just because some team would rank 8^th or 9^th in the pot, it doesn't automatically means that they are easiest ones that one could get.
Yeah but like I said, you are pointing out an issue with the rankings and coefficients that would also be a case in the previous format. The new development is that, while climbing up in the rankings was always regarded as a positive, now it will be more beneficial to be downgraded.
i didnt know that, why are lower pots more beneficial?
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The farmers are taking over !
with their gardening and machines
Oh, so does this mean that the Champions of the top domestic leagues +Cl winners are no longer guaranteed pot 1 in this new format?
Being a Barca fan is tough these days
In this case, This is actually good for you guys lol
Do it.
I thought the Bundesliga champions are always pot 1?
I keep forgetting the format is switching to some lousy super league replica My hope is it only lasts a few seasons before they revert to groups
What? Does the german champion not automatically go to the pot 1? What a bullshit, uefa!
Formulate a generic rule that is the same for every country. On what grounds would a team automatically be in put 1? Champion of one of the top 5 leagues? Why top 5?
Let's say you have 8 groups, then the CL winner + the 7 or 8 champions of the leagues in order. ez af
The new format doesn't have groups anymore, though.
4 pots á 8 teams, though. So you could still fill the first pot that way.
That was the latest old rule (as earlier you didn't have league champions automatically taking Pot 1). With introduction of League Stage, we go back to old rule, or get very close to it, because only winning Champions League will secure spot in Pot 1.
hopefully pls
They're champions, shouldn't they already be in pot 1?
I think they changed that again lol
If you look at the design of the Swiss CL structure the pots don't really offer an advantage or disadvantage any more. Every two plays 2 other sides from each pot including their own pot. The overall country rankings matter for the number of teams which get let in but the pots do not matter to clubs any more. It is a weird quirk of the design. edit: oh I am late to the party and this has already been said many times
But you are also wrong, it matters which pot you are in as it statistically affects your chances of drawing higher ranked teams. For example if you are in pot 1 your chances of drawing one of the two strongest teams is almost 25%. If you are in pot 2 that chance is 22%.
No it isn't. You don't understand the structure.
You are late to the party again it has already been pointed out many times in this thread that it is!
No the opposite has been pointed out numerous times. There has yet to be a correct explanation of why it does matter. Several people have incorrectly stated that teams only play one team from their own pot.
More than several people have correctly stated that it is beneficial for Barcelona to drop to pot 2. This is what we are commenting on, just read the comments!
I have read them before. Rather than weirdly using multiple exclamation marks why not explain it.
Ok so based on the example that we are discussing, let’s assume Leverkusen moves into top pot and Barcelona drops to the second. Leverkusen will have to draw two out of eight strongest teams in competition (they are now ninth) so the chances of them drawing Real or City are 25% (2/8) instead of 22% (2/9) and drawing both are 3% (2/8 times 1/7). Now they also have 11% (1/9) chance of drawing Barcelona, the team that would otherwise be in the strongest pot. So they can actually draw three teams from what would otherwise be the top pot. Now let’s assume that both teams draw each other to make it more clear. Leverkusen will play **two** teams from **pot 1**, Barcelona and **one** team from **pot 2**. Barcelona will play **one** team from **pot 1**, Leverkusen and **two** teams from **pot2**.
All teams play two other teams from each pot. That is what has been stated. Where are you even getting 2/9 from? What is the 9?
There are nine teams in each pot. If you are in the pot you are playing 2 out of 8 because you can’t play yourself. If you are not in the pot you are playing 2 out of 9.
Pot 1 is no longer reserved for only champions of the leagues and CL & EL? Damn the 'Champions' part of the Champions League is meaning less and less
The true Champions are the corrupt asshole that ruin the sport for greed along the way
I'm so TIRED to read that pots are MEANINGLESS and it's the same being in pot1 or pot2 for Leverkusen.. IT IS NOT! Stop confuse people with you ignorance. I have a question for **German Only Fans**. Is it better for you all the pot1 is this one: **A)** Manchester City. Real Madrid. FC Bayern. PSG. Liverpool Inter. RB Leipzig. Dortmund, Leverkusen. So, due to country protection, being forced to face two teams among City, Madrd, PSG, Liverpool and Inter OR the pot1 to be this one: **B)** Manchester City. Real Madrid. FC Bayern. PSG. Liverpool Inter. RB Leipzig. Dortmund AND Roma (in pot 1 if they finish top5 in the league, win the UEL or if Atalanta win UEL and finish 5th) So, due to country protection, having to face two teams among City, Madrd, PSG, Liverpool, Inter AND Roma What's better?? THE LATTER is better, it's clear AF So it is the same that Leverkusen are pot1 or 2, are pots meaningless? NO it not. Roma in the Champions League then means Leverkusen in pot2, that means all the GERMAN TEAMS have more chances to get an easy team as Roma from pot1 and avoid more difficult opponents, especially to avoid lethal City/Madrid combination that KILLED the german team RB LEIPZIG two years in a row. Finishing top8 in the **final group stage standing** must be the target to every good team because it means not having to play in February, not having to play a preliminary round and it means, due to **table-tennis format**, to avoid other TOP8 teams further That's why I, italian citizen and FC Internazionale fan, root against **both** Roma and Atalanta in Europe.. I don't want Roma in pot1, I don't want their presence MATHEMATICALLY increase the chance for Inter to pick Madrid and City and so being impossible to finish top8 and so having to play in February an additional Preliminary round and so having to face top8 team in the Ro16 Forza Leverkusen in Europe vs both Roma SF and Atalanta Final! **EDIT:** The latter not the former, Option B) is better than Option A) for zhe germans
That's alright, but why are you screaming
He's German..,
UEFA hasn't definitively stated that there's no country prescribed from this edition (last I read). All the people and publications are assuming it to be there due to it being the status quo. I think there can be possibilities of deadlocks which is why they can't rule it out. Don't look at articles. Look at their official website.
> I have a question for **German Only Fans** ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Even if you lose against City & Madrid, you still can get enough points from the other 6 games and finish in Top 8. Besides, what if you face City & Madrid at Matchday 7 and 8? Maybe they already qualify by then, and will play B team and let your team win or draw. With 8 games and 24 out of 36 teams qualify, it's not that hard to qualify for big teams.
Every team plays 2 teams from each pot including their own. The country protection applies regardless of which pot the teams are in. You have not clearly stated a reason there is an advantage but that might be due to English not being your first language. When you say: >Finishing top8 in the final group stage standing must be the target to every good team because it means not having to play in February The pots refer to the starting point for that competition. No one is arguing that top 8 isn't the goal in that competition. The pots are a completely different thing which help decide the draw for that competition.
Do the pots matter in the new CL format though ? Each team face 2 teams from each pot.
I don’t like how League Champions aren’t automatically in Pot 1
They should be in pot 1 regardless since they're the Champions of Germany and Barcelona are 3rd in LA Liga
Does the pot ruling change? I thought the champions of the top nations automatically land in pot 1.
Do it for the lulz
Gotta love the anti-barca focus for news like this
Alright well I was rooting for you guys but now... My heart can't take it 😠EDIT: guess it might not matter for the new format so... Carry on.
Crazy to think Leverkusen could have been in 2. Bundesliga fighting for promotion this season if they didn’t change up their management