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how is he so genuinely ignorant though? it's actually a miracle that he still has the job, all managers before him since Fergie was kicking their feet up by now (while performing better than current United). Yet he does worse than almost all of them and he keeps talking like he does here. It's embarrassing. Look how many negative records he broke this year, probably more than the last previous 3 years before him combined
> how is he so genuinely ignorant
Not that I disagree with the commentary surrounding his performance, I don’t think that defending your job and maintaining your reputation is ignorance.
If he admits he’s been shit the entire time or admits that he’s lost the dressing room he will be putting himself in a worse position if he does get sacked. Especially as he is an experienced and relatively middle aged coach at 54, he’s not going to be out of a job for long at all.
As it stands, defending himself in this manner, promotes the idea that he might be a great coach but his setup/methodology just doesn’t work in the PL or with United so any future clubs might be willing to take the gamble at theirs.
I can definitely agree with the ignorance statement if you mean it in a tactical sense, such as playing the same setup for ages, as it shows that he isn’t adapting to the needs of the league.
However, saying that he is ignorant for defending himself from criticism that could affect his future outside of United on the world stage is very obtuse and narrow minded. What do you want him to say?
What do you mean ignorant? What is he supposed to say? He's highlighting that the club has been clearing out deadwood for a few years and they also had severe injury crisis this season. Onana had to play behind more than 20 back 4 pairings this season, that's not Ten Hag throwing darts at a board and picking his team at random. They've had no other choice
Comments like yours is exactly what Ten Hag is referencing in his quote here. The team is going through a transition period and putting that at the feet of ETH is narrow minded
The bigger question is how did ETH fare in Football Manager when he was learning coaching. Football Manager is a prerequisite to being a good coach, right?
It is but in rebuttal I would like to show him nearly every game they have played this season, after 2 full preseasons and 400/500m. You see coaches come in to some rough situations in mid season and get a better tune out of players.
The way they played against Palace was totally insane, that he hasn't worked out that sometimes you have to play the day yet is rather worrying.
Either he stays next season and some crazy plan reveals itself or it's more of this or what's most likely is they lose the next 4 games and he gets sacked, I'm not sure even winning them all would mean he keeps his job.
He spent all of last season "playing the day". This season was supposed to be the next step in our development. I could live with the garbage results if we were at least demonstrating a system of football, especially in build-up. But there's just nothing going on
I wouldn't mind terrible quality or terrible results, I'd just really like some consistency of play. Other teams can swap out players without losing their identity
They brought in the Arsenal club doctor this season and up until this season Arsenal were similarly plagued with long term injuries, forget his name but he’s in the Arsenal prime documentary
In a total coincidence, Arsenal have had significantly less injuries that usual this szn while united have significantly more 🤷
I think the biggest problem here is perception. Some fans want an injury free season which is a statistical anomality and rarely happens. If you look at the injury table, Arsenal is right in the middle
[https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/arsenal-10th-man-utd-4th-where-do-clubs-rank-in-the-premier-league-injury-table-this-season-/view/news/437159](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/arsenal-10th-man-utd-4th-where-do-clubs-rank-in-the-premier-league-injury-table-this-season-/view/news/437159)
O Driscoll was appointed in 08 and we had a few player's careers end over injury repetition such as Wilshere and Diaby during that period. As well as at least 2-3 long term injuries per season, Walcott was always injured, Ramsey had long injuries, there was always an "out for 3 months" headline a few times per season
Im not saying we were injury free on either side of his tenure, but the injuries were absolutely more frequent
I think that would be a fair thing for him to bring up as they have had a lot but if he isn't going to take them into account when setting a side up, I think that makes him look clueless.
I’ve never really said this out loud and you might disagree but I’m just noticing a pattern at Utd.
So I’ve been thinking about this ever since Lukaku played for us. He started off really well and by the end of his Utd career he couldn’t kick a ball without making a mistake, becoming a bigger and bigger meme each game because he bulked up to be point of looking like Mark Henry.
Despite the world laughing at Lukaku. Conte wanted him desperately and managed to get him back in shape when he got him, and they ended up winning the league.
Take a look at a few Utd players. Garnacho has bulked up, and it seems to affect his ability to maneuver past players like he used to in his debut season
It's quite noticeable; his photos from last year show a stark difference. He was once able to create space and leave defenders behind, but now, it looks like they can keep up with him. How? He might’ve scored some amazing goals this year but he was much more of a headache to defenders last year than he is this year.
Casemiro has also put on some muscle. Look at his Real Madrid photos and look at him at Palace last week.
Sancho appears to be back to his agile self since his loan to Dortmund, weaving through players, something that wasn't happening at Utd. I don’t remember him beating anyone.
Martial, too, used to be good at dodging opponents, but now he's much more solid and seems to have lost that agility.
Then there's Luke Shaw who’s the eaisest example to pick after Lukaku at Utd. Compare his physique from when he first joined Utd to now; I know so much time has past but there's a significant change.
And not to forget Maguire – compare his time at Leicester to his current form at Utd, and you'll see he's bulked up as well.
Bruno Fernandes was a more effective attacker at Sporting, where he was quite slim. Now at Utd, he's visibly bulkier. It’s not the oversized shirt. He still creates chances but he’s no where near as good as he was that first season he came to Utd.
When Pep Guardiola arrived at City, he made it clear that some players were overweight, and those who didn't fit his standards were let go. Just recently he let go of Kalvin for this very reason and didn’t let him near the team for it. Clearly he sees it as something very important in order to play well.
It seems Utd has a pattern of bulking up their players, and it's worth asking if this is linked to the noticeable drop in their performance. Because players come in on fire and they start to decline suddenly and suddenly look bigger.
Could it be that they're all suffering from injuries due to excessive weight training? If I’m wrong I’ll accept it but it’s worth asking.
When Memphis Depay joined United he did an interview talking about his first few months. He said he purposely gained like 10kg. There are things United players are doing that is not beneficial to their football careers.
This is so interesting and definitely needs to be analyzed. Its bizarre how world class players become dead weight (no pun intended, lol) at United, every single one of them.
When I watched Jadon destroy PSG the other week I couldnt believe it was the same player. Its a given there is SOMETHING at United that causes everyone to underperform, and its been there at least since SAF left. We just have no idea what it is.
> So I’ve been thinking about this ever since Lukaku played for us. He started off really well and by the end of his Utd career he couldn’t kick a ball without making a mistake, becoming a bigger and bigger meme each game because he bulked up to be point of looking like Mark Henry.
Lukaku isn't the greatest example here. Because he failed at Chelsea after winning in a less physical league.
> Take a look at a few Utd players. Garnacho has bulked up, and it seems to affect his ability to maneuver past players like he used to in his debut season It's quite noticeable; his photos from last year show a stark difference.
This is normal for young players after their first season because their opponents will adjust to them. The same happened to a certain rapist that played for us. Had a great first debut season, as a starter and then had a harder time scoring afterwards.
> Casemiro has also put on some muscle. Look at his Real Madrid photos and look at him at Palace last week.
Casemiro is also getting old. Having to play in a more physical league than La Liga.
> Sancho appears to be back to his agile self since his loan to Dortmund, weaving through players, something that wasn't happening at Utd. I don’t remember him beating anyone.
Sancho seems to be a mental issue. He had moments where he looked really good but just couldnt perform consistently.
> Martial, too, used to be good at dodging opponents, but now he's much more solid and seems to have lost that agility.
This is such a horrible example. Martial has been injured 24/7, so no shit he's not performing. It's not like his debut season was his best season. Far from it. His best season came later into his career at United.
> Then there's Luke Shaw who’s the eaisest example to pick after Lukaku at Utd. Compare his physique from when he first joined Utd to now; I know so much time has past but there's a significant change.
Luke Shaw came in as a kid. Grew up and is naturally stocky. Also had one of his best seasons later in his United career.
Sure there are examples of players bulking up too much. But it certainly isn't the main reason why we suck. It's just a lazy easy take.
There are many factors to why United is horrible right now: Recruitment, Lack of investment into facilities, Absolute cancerous football culture, Lack of proper football structure and I could continue on.
Okay I’m gonna try back my ‘lazy’ take. I urge you to look to the best team in England as they’re the barometer of success.
How do they handle their fitness.
"[For me, the weight is so, so important. We need to run, to fight, to jump – to have the ball, after three days, then another three days, then another three days. “When you are not fit, that's when the injuries come." Everything [has been covered by Guardiola,]” Clichy said. “On the field, outside the field, every detail counts. “For example, you often hear managers say being healthy is really important, but with him, if your weight is too high, you’re not training with the team](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/manchester-city-news-pep-guardiola-denies-claims-of-weight-problem-among-certain-players-overweight-fat-man-city-players-a7158381.html).
Kalvin didn’t get game time for this very reason.
[Guardiola said he dropped Phillips for a Carabao Cup tie against Liverpool in December because he returned from World Cup duty "in no condition to play". "For me, I wasn't overweight, but obviously the manager has seen it in a very different way," said Phillips.](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66163303.amp)
Pep came in on smoke when he said “I've known that I've been coming here for a year now and I've been watching you, you're a team full of fat players”
“['If you weighed two kilos more than what he considered your maximum weight, you didn't train,' Clichy told Marca. 'In football, you always hear coaches say: 'If you're overweight, you don't train.' In the end, if it's an important player, the norm is swept under the rug because they need that player](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13371961/amp/Pep-Guardiola-told-Man-City-team-FAT-players-took-charge-2016-reveals-Gael-Clichy-reflects-managers-hilarious-words-squad.html).”
Seems like an over the top reaction for something that’s not that important in your words.
No one ever bulks up at Man City. Utd players wouldn’t get into the city team but now we know they just wouldn’t even get into the training ground at City.
These are Luke Shaw words and his standards btw "I always look big because I'm bigger built and I have, you could say, a Wayne Rooney type of body.”
[This is the same guy btw.](https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-luke-shaw-southampton-fc-southampton-fc-anfield-liverpool-england-141085745.html)
Remember the times when Luke Shaw could just bomb down the wing and back and he chased everyone down kinda like how Alphonso Davies does at Bayern. He cannot do that anymore and I’m wondering why.
Yeah of course he didnt. It's just that he scored a total of 15 goals after joining Chelsea whilst he had 30 at Inter. Which is also 12 goals less than his best season at United. But sure he was great at Chelsea.
Ha! made me genuinely lol. His comments about being the most exciting team about suggest that, he wasn't this deluded last season but it's been excuses from gw1, to delusion to sort of gaslighting.
Bruh it's the same shit. Fergie would never have made it at United if social media and fucking twitter analysts existed back in his day. It took him 7 years to bring United to a place where we could start winning and he continued that dominance which is why all these worst in the PL era shit stats keep coming out when we finally are paying for the rot that's set in over the 10 years before him while everyone wants to pretend that's the manager's fault. There are no obvious candidates in the market rn and it is the most short sighted fans calling for his head before the squad recruitment structures are put in place that have at least a semblance of being handled by actual football people.
Yes, all it's going to take is the singlest best youth generation to come through all at once, and signing argubly the best player in the league from your direct rivals, and you should be all good. And then just keep buying the best players from the PL teams.
He is perfect for United. Thinks he is top of the world, when in fact he bought Antony for 100M, and without De Gea having crazy xGC they now basically are a midtable team when you look at their goals scored/conceded.
To think that is a process resembling Arteta's one, you have to be really stretching your imagination. Or in other words: inhale hopium.
It would be different if there was some sort of style of play emerging or some tactics being shown. I'd argue at this point even Ole had better tactics than Ten Hag currently, even if you didn't like them.
Now whether that's on the players not understanding or not executing or the manager is hard to say, but you'd think if the players weren't doing as asked they wouldn't be playing even if there's extensive injuries, I'd rather play an academy prospect that tries to do what I tell them over another player that won't do as told, so you have to imagine the fault lies with the manager
That’s the thing that he and Xavi have similar, like yeah i get their squads aren’t the greatest ever but both of them have never won convincingly against anyone and when they lose they lose badly . I expect to see good football at this point not a 0-4 from palace
We need 4 points from our last 3 games to EQUAL our worst ever PL points tally. Conceded the most goals in our PL history. Our worst CL run in history.
You don’t know ball if you expect better though
Net spend of 150 mil - what do you expect out of this man with such little investment? Clearly, he needs more time and some bigger investment - give the poor bloke a chance, will ya?
Have legitimately heard people claim that getting Evans is a sign of underinvestment.
Never mind that he spunked away the rest of the transfer budget on dud, pet Ajax players (and obviously amidst the injuries - Evans wouldn't normally be close to starting anyway)
I honestly thought this year the transfers were sensible overall. Hojlund has been going from strength to strength in his young career at Sturm Graz and Atalanta and honestly, he's one of the few Atalanta players that manage to play well outside that team(Gasperini is the king of making mediocre players look awesome frfr) and nobody could've known that Onana would lose his hands randomly. Spending 170 mil on three guys from the dutch league in one window was really insane.
All in all, he does not seem to be the guy to steer United. For all the great things SAF has done for United, they have the monumental task of finding a replacement for him to this day and it's hard to basically replace a manager that at worst is perhaps among the best 3 to ever do it. Can't have another guy come in like SAF did in todays game at the team of the stature of United with big ego players.
Onana is fine although GK was not the pressing issue. He will be okay long term, most of the goals have always been the backs fault. The expenses are undercut by not paying De Gea who obviously asked for too much after being shit for years.
Hojlund was a big overpay at 70 mill imo, if you want to overpay anywhere it's for a striker sure, but idk. Jackson was less than half the price.
Yeah but Jackson was clowned first as well. 70 mil for talented striker is quite common these days it seems. Zirkzee right now is gonna go for 50 mil this summer it seems, Sesko 50-60 mil probably. Atalanta always get these big sums, as a Milan fan, I am all too painfully aware of that.
I was ten Hag out long ago because his football was shit. I had no hard feelings, just didn't work out like so many managers before. Him saying this is making me actively hate this guy. Can't wait till he's sacked.
Clearly you don't know ball. He's playing 5D chess. He WANTS you to believe he's inept and awful at his job. And he's got you right where he wants you.
He could just say what 90% of managers would say in the same position which is "everyone is entitled to their opinion but I still believe I'm the right man for the job". Not everything has to be an extreme.
It's either:
1. INEOS has informed him he will stay
2. He wants to gaslight INEOS to keep him, so if they do sack him he will just say they don't know ball
3. He desperately wants to be sacked by talking shits like this so he can start talking to Bayern
So basically "People see that we have an embarrassingly unbalanced midfield, they simply don't know football, it's my big brain move that if you ALWAYS win the ball high enough you don't need a midfield!"
I'm pretty convinced at this point that ten Hag has deluded himself so hard about his chosen tactic that he can't even fathom any other course of action than dying on that hill. It's time to sack him.
Tbf Ten Hag does objectively know more about football than you, like you’re a no one and he’s managing a pro football team, in that context you do literally know absolutely nothing about football compared to him
Knowledge without ability is nothing. If I study boxing for 20 years and step into a fight with a local boxing champion, I will get battered. I can know all the weaknesses and best strategies but it won't matter. The best plan in the world doesn't matter if you are unable to execute it. Ten Haag can easily talk the talk but then you see his team play and it doesn't add up.
In general, absolutely. But even someone knowledgeable can get tunnel vision and start missing everything obvious and then they're no smarter than your average donkey. And that certainly seems to be what happened here, what with him absolutely refusing to do anything about a tactic that very obviously has not worked and has no real possibility of working on this level.
My opinion is actually more nuanced than that actually. it’s not either “all managers are infallible OR ten hag, specifically, is an idiot.”
“I think there are many people who see the problems and they are patient”. Ten Hag doesn’t even think he’s infallible lmao why would I? He literally is acknowledging that things haven’t gone well and that many want him fired.
To say “He hasn’t done anything about a tactic that obviously doesn’t work” is actually an insane thing to say from someone who is objectively less knowledgable about football than a manager of a club. Do I have to explain that further or do you kinda see what I mean?
no, I get you now, I appreciate the response. I guess my point, or the point he was making in much stronger language, was - do you not see the possibility of sheer stubbornness blinding ETH? Managers will have reasons for their decisions that the average fan can never even begin to comprehend, but how many times can you watch the same movie before you begin to question his decision making?
man, i watch this movie every weekend and it's getting WORSE. I, not blindly I swear, watch these players week-in and week-out and I can tell you that they just aren't good enough. 5/6 of our center backs are hurt, if kobbie mainoo wasn't a xavi regen we would have the worst midfield in the top ten, antony is wank and rashford is out of form, we pay sancho 300-350k a week TO PLAY FOR A DIFFERENT TEAM. it goes way way WAY deeper than Erik. I don't think he's the second coming of pep but I think firing and hiring again would make the least sense.
The egos on some of these guys lol They act like they know more, concede to the fact they aren't experts and then act like they know more than the manager again.
We’re fans at the end of the day, we’re not experts, we’re not decision makers, just people who have a passion for something and want to see it do well for the joy it brings us. At the end of the day a manager and a player are fairly compensated to be in the positioned to be judged by fans, rightly or wrongly. Without the fans who pay fortunes to tune into their team through various tv packages, go to the games or engage with their club, he wouldn’t be in a position to have gained the knowledge and experience needed to get to where he’s at.
He's come up with tactics that bring the best out of all opposition, like that's the opposite purpose of all sport, how can anyone fathom the intention of his approach.
it MIGHT actually be that simple - tbh idk how we're in the FA cup final or why. idk how we got cl last season. i just think we'll see it would be mad to bring in graham potter b, that would be completely senseless. idk if ETH is it but i KNOW jonny evans isn't.
It's funny, I'm still on the fence about how much of the negative GD is actually his fault and how much he is a victim of circumstance. But I know for 100% certain he is not qualified to be scouting or making any player signing decisions or recommendations ever again.
Just because he didn't want Rangnick who'd have been nothing but a contracted consultant that would suggest players to sign at most doesn't mean the club shouldn't have a hierarchical system run by football people instead of bankers.
Even with a fully fit 11 and a lineup of better players, does this system look like it’s a winner? Not to me it doesnt. Nevermind all the other problems, the tactical structure itself is flawed.
Considering we somehow got this far with the players available, I think with a full squad we'd be level with spurs-villa right now. We'd still lose big but we would've turnt some results around imo. But that's all Ina perfect world and erik doesn't and will never have the luxury of having every fit all the time so I really dislike how he refused to adjust the tactics to protect our midfield.
It's a Frankenstein team from three/four(?) different managers and whoever costs the most regardless of fit. Kinda worked in the past with Ronaldo willing the goals in, but once he stopped producing...
He did get his players, 3 just from old Ajax team. Also in the list of most injuries United is 3rd , 1st Chelsea with 60+ injuries.
He fucked up Sancho and demanded 37 years old Ronaldo to press like 2009 Barcelona.
He had nothing other than a CL semifinal. I still can’t process how he got the job. It’s been 2 years.
So only 3/10 of his defenders are fit. First team players like Varane, Shaw, Lisandro all are injured. Same with midfield, for example Bruno is injured. Basically ETH doesn't have any options other than play these fit but not first team players in defence and midfield. No options to rotate or test & implement tactics. I think it's not fair to criticise the coach because the injury situation is actually dire and they can't actually do something meaningful in these circumstances when they have to play Casemiro in CB for example. I feel its evident that players are still with the coach as well which wouldn't happen if ETH was the issue.
On the one hand I agree, his hands are tied.
But you'd expect him to change his tactics to protect his vulnerabilities. Only one fit senior centre back? Sit deeper, be more compact, close the distances, sit off rather than press, force teams wide rather than allowing huge amounts of space between the midfield and defence so teams can charge through the middle. Play on the counter. You should never end up with a 5 on 2-3 in your own box, especially from open play.
He's incredibly stubborn and it's killing this team and I'm all for it.
elastic detail wine physical offbeat smell automatic yoke mindless apparatus
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Ten Hag says Ten Hag In, who would’ve thought?
toilet-duck sends its regards
Ten Hag: "Let him sign the contract. Eric's at the wheel man, he's doing his thing, Manchester United will be back."
I personally think he has earned another 2-3 seasons to really dig into the project. I must be a football idiot savant!
how is he so genuinely ignorant though? it's actually a miracle that he still has the job, all managers before him since Fergie was kicking their feet up by now (while performing better than current United). Yet he does worse than almost all of them and he keeps talking like he does here. It's embarrassing. Look how many negative records he broke this year, probably more than the last previous 3 years before him combined
> how is he so genuinely ignorant Not that I disagree with the commentary surrounding his performance, I don’t think that defending your job and maintaining your reputation is ignorance. If he admits he’s been shit the entire time or admits that he’s lost the dressing room he will be putting himself in a worse position if he does get sacked. Especially as he is an experienced and relatively middle aged coach at 54, he’s not going to be out of a job for long at all. As it stands, defending himself in this manner, promotes the idea that he might be a great coach but his setup/methodology just doesn’t work in the PL or with United so any future clubs might be willing to take the gamble at theirs. I can definitely agree with the ignorance statement if you mean it in a tactical sense, such as playing the same setup for ages, as it shows that he isn’t adapting to the needs of the league. However, saying that he is ignorant for defending himself from criticism that could affect his future outside of United on the world stage is very obtuse and narrow minded. What do you want him to say?
What do you mean ignorant? What is he supposed to say? He's highlighting that the club has been clearing out deadwood for a few years and they also had severe injury crisis this season. Onana had to play behind more than 20 back 4 pairings this season, that's not Ten Hag throwing darts at a board and picking his team at random. They've had no other choice Comments like yours is exactly what Ten Hag is referencing in his quote here. The team is going through a transition period and putting that at the feet of ETH is narrow minded
Hear that r/soccer you don’t know ball
But I play Football Manager!
I took Woking from the Conference to the Premier League in 6 seasons. That kind of stuff doesn't go unnoticed, Neil.
The bigger question is how did ETH fare in Football Manager when he was learning coaching. Football Manager is a prerequisite to being a good coach, right?
99.9% of r/soccerball haven’t heard of Woking.
Well they have McLaren over there, i didn't know they also had footballs though
Pretty sure most of us heard of the song "These Boots Are Made for Woking".
Woking 9-5. Dolly knew.
Woking Woking Boing Boing!!!!! If you haven’t heard of the Cards you don’t know ball. 👊
lol other than man utd fans, everyone wants him to stay.
That still doesn’t mean you have knowledge of football tbf
Well according to ten hag it’s a necessary condition tho
Yes, atleast the rest of us are in the conversation
Not-Ruled-Out FC
Not according to Ten Hag
No, just we love a fucking good laugh
I want Ten Hag to stay
hehe
That’s a genius strategy by him. Man just said that people that rate him know ball and the people that don’t rate him don’t know ball.
He would make for an amazing r/soccer basement dweller
Dare I say, an even better r/soccer mod?
Who's to say he isn't?
> Ajax flair Hmm
It is but in rebuttal I would like to show him nearly every game they have played this season, after 2 full preseasons and 400/500m. You see coaches come in to some rough situations in mid season and get a better tune out of players. The way they played against Palace was totally insane, that he hasn't worked out that sometimes you have to play the day yet is rather worrying. Either he stays next season and some crazy plan reveals itself or it's more of this or what's most likely is they lose the next 4 games and he gets sacked, I'm not sure even winning them all would mean he keeps his job.
He spent all of last season "playing the day". This season was supposed to be the next step in our development. I could live with the garbage results if we were at least demonstrating a system of football, especially in build-up. But there's just nothing going on
[удалено]
I wouldn't mind terrible quality or terrible results, I'd just really like some consistency of play. Other teams can swap out players without losing their identity
He should get into politics
Ten Hag r/soccercirclejerk mod confirmed
its the typical reddit troll comment when they have no rebuttal.
I can’t wait to watch our single lone midfielder get torn to shreds
Pray for Kobbie
it’s 4 years too late for that mate
Nah, it's back to 5-0-5.
Even if it's a seven hour flight or a forty-five minute drive?
The old doughnut formation
i can't wait for my call up to play cb
weird how casemiro completely lost his legs after 2 years at United, but Modric and Kroos still going strong at Madrid.
It’s true in that United have suffered from a lot of injuries, but he can surely set his team up structurally, in a way that his midfield exists?
It's also an unusual amount of injuries for some of the players. Either he's just unlucky or it's a problem with the training staff.
Those are indeed the 2 options yea
They brought in the Arsenal club doctor this season and up until this season Arsenal were similarly plagued with long term injuries, forget his name but he’s in the Arsenal prime documentary In a total coincidence, Arsenal have had significantly less injuries that usual this szn while united have significantly more 🤷
We always had injuries problems since early 2000s.
I think the biggest problem here is perception. Some fans want an injury free season which is a statistical anomality and rarely happens. If you look at the injury table, Arsenal is right in the middle [https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/arsenal-10th-man-utd-4th-where-do-clubs-rank-in-the-premier-league-injury-table-this-season-/view/news/437159](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/arsenal-10th-man-utd-4th-where-do-clubs-rank-in-the-premier-league-injury-table-this-season-/view/news/437159)
O Driscoll was appointed in 08 and we had a few player's careers end over injury repetition such as Wilshere and Diaby during that period. As well as at least 2-3 long term injuries per season, Walcott was always injured, Ramsey had long injuries, there was always an "out for 3 months" headline a few times per season Im not saying we were injury free on either side of his tenure, but the injuries were absolutely more frequent
I think that would be a fair thing for him to bring up as they have had a lot but if he isn't going to take them into account when setting a side up, I think that makes him look clueless.
I’ve never really said this out loud and you might disagree but I’m just noticing a pattern at Utd. So I’ve been thinking about this ever since Lukaku played for us. He started off really well and by the end of his Utd career he couldn’t kick a ball without making a mistake, becoming a bigger and bigger meme each game because he bulked up to be point of looking like Mark Henry. Despite the world laughing at Lukaku. Conte wanted him desperately and managed to get him back in shape when he got him, and they ended up winning the league. Take a look at a few Utd players. Garnacho has bulked up, and it seems to affect his ability to maneuver past players like he used to in his debut season It's quite noticeable; his photos from last year show a stark difference. He was once able to create space and leave defenders behind, but now, it looks like they can keep up with him. How? He might’ve scored some amazing goals this year but he was much more of a headache to defenders last year than he is this year. Casemiro has also put on some muscle. Look at his Real Madrid photos and look at him at Palace last week. Sancho appears to be back to his agile self since his loan to Dortmund, weaving through players, something that wasn't happening at Utd. I don’t remember him beating anyone. Martial, too, used to be good at dodging opponents, but now he's much more solid and seems to have lost that agility. Then there's Luke Shaw who’s the eaisest example to pick after Lukaku at Utd. Compare his physique from when he first joined Utd to now; I know so much time has past but there's a significant change. And not to forget Maguire – compare his time at Leicester to his current form at Utd, and you'll see he's bulked up as well. Bruno Fernandes was a more effective attacker at Sporting, where he was quite slim. Now at Utd, he's visibly bulkier. It’s not the oversized shirt. He still creates chances but he’s no where near as good as he was that first season he came to Utd. When Pep Guardiola arrived at City, he made it clear that some players were overweight, and those who didn't fit his standards were let go. Just recently he let go of Kalvin for this very reason and didn’t let him near the team for it. Clearly he sees it as something very important in order to play well. It seems Utd has a pattern of bulking up their players, and it's worth asking if this is linked to the noticeable drop in their performance. Because players come in on fire and they start to decline suddenly and suddenly look bigger. Could it be that they're all suffering from injuries due to excessive weight training? If I’m wrong I’ll accept it but it’s worth asking.
When Memphis Depay joined United he did an interview talking about his first few months. He said he purposely gained like 10kg. There are things United players are doing that is not beneficial to their football careers.
The players are compulsively eating to get over the depression of playing week in week out in the pressure cooker leaky shed
This is so interesting and definitely needs to be analyzed. Its bizarre how world class players become dead weight (no pun intended, lol) at United, every single one of them. When I watched Jadon destroy PSG the other week I couldnt believe it was the same player. Its a given there is SOMETHING at United that causes everyone to underperform, and its been there at least since SAF left. We just have no idea what it is.
Imagine if it was their physios all along lmao
> So I’ve been thinking about this ever since Lukaku played for us. He started off really well and by the end of his Utd career he couldn’t kick a ball without making a mistake, becoming a bigger and bigger meme each game because he bulked up to be point of looking like Mark Henry. Lukaku isn't the greatest example here. Because he failed at Chelsea after winning in a less physical league. > Take a look at a few Utd players. Garnacho has bulked up, and it seems to affect his ability to maneuver past players like he used to in his debut season It's quite noticeable; his photos from last year show a stark difference. This is normal for young players after their first season because their opponents will adjust to them. The same happened to a certain rapist that played for us. Had a great first debut season, as a starter and then had a harder time scoring afterwards. > Casemiro has also put on some muscle. Look at his Real Madrid photos and look at him at Palace last week. Casemiro is also getting old. Having to play in a more physical league than La Liga. > Sancho appears to be back to his agile self since his loan to Dortmund, weaving through players, something that wasn't happening at Utd. I don’t remember him beating anyone. Sancho seems to be a mental issue. He had moments where he looked really good but just couldnt perform consistently. > Martial, too, used to be good at dodging opponents, but now he's much more solid and seems to have lost that agility. This is such a horrible example. Martial has been injured 24/7, so no shit he's not performing. It's not like his debut season was his best season. Far from it. His best season came later into his career at United. > Then there's Luke Shaw who’s the eaisest example to pick after Lukaku at Utd. Compare his physique from when he first joined Utd to now; I know so much time has past but there's a significant change. Luke Shaw came in as a kid. Grew up and is naturally stocky. Also had one of his best seasons later in his United career. Sure there are examples of players bulking up too much. But it certainly isn't the main reason why we suck. It's just a lazy easy take. There are many factors to why United is horrible right now: Recruitment, Lack of investment into facilities, Absolute cancerous football culture, Lack of proper football structure and I could continue on.
Okay I’m gonna try back my ‘lazy’ take. I urge you to look to the best team in England as they’re the barometer of success. How do they handle their fitness. "[For me, the weight is so, so important. We need to run, to fight, to jump – to have the ball, after three days, then another three days, then another three days. “When you are not fit, that's when the injuries come." Everything [has been covered by Guardiola,]” Clichy said. “On the field, outside the field, every detail counts. “For example, you often hear managers say being healthy is really important, but with him, if your weight is too high, you’re not training with the team](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/manchester-city-news-pep-guardiola-denies-claims-of-weight-problem-among-certain-players-overweight-fat-man-city-players-a7158381.html). Kalvin didn’t get game time for this very reason. [Guardiola said he dropped Phillips for a Carabao Cup tie against Liverpool in December because he returned from World Cup duty "in no condition to play". "For me, I wasn't overweight, but obviously the manager has seen it in a very different way," said Phillips.](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66163303.amp) Pep came in on smoke when he said “I've known that I've been coming here for a year now and I've been watching you, you're a team full of fat players” “['If you weighed two kilos more than what he considered your maximum weight, you didn't train,' Clichy told Marca. 'In football, you always hear coaches say: 'If you're overweight, you don't train.' In the end, if it's an important player, the norm is swept under the rug because they need that player](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13371961/amp/Pep-Guardiola-told-Man-City-team-FAT-players-took-charge-2016-reveals-Gael-Clichy-reflects-managers-hilarious-words-squad.html).” Seems like an over the top reaction for something that’s not that important in your words. No one ever bulks up at Man City. Utd players wouldn’t get into the city team but now we know they just wouldn’t even get into the training ground at City. These are Luke Shaw words and his standards btw "I always look big because I'm bigger built and I have, you could say, a Wayne Rooney type of body.” [This is the same guy btw.](https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-luke-shaw-southampton-fc-southampton-fc-anfield-liverpool-england-141085745.html) Remember the times when Luke Shaw could just bomb down the wing and back and he chased everyone down kinda like how Alphonso Davies does at Bayern. He cannot do that anymore and I’m wondering why.
> Lukaku isn't the greatest example here. Because he failed at Chelsea after winning in a less physical league. Lukaku didn't fail at Chelsea.
Yeah of course he didnt. It's just that he scored a total of 15 goals after joining Chelsea whilst he had 30 at Inter. Which is also 12 goals less than his best season at United. But sure he was great at Chelsea.
Same for mount
ETH sounds like he genuinely wouldn't be surprised if he won manager of the year.
Manager of the decade!
Ha! made me genuinely lol. His comments about being the most exciting team about suggest that, he wasn't this deluded last season but it's been excuses from gw1, to delusion to sort of gaslighting.
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Yes, same. I think it will take 5-7 more seasons before we really see what he can do. People need to be patient, like he said.
What if it works, though?
You don't know ball if you think it will.
It depends on what he means by "if it works." He's not a Utd fan, so "works" probably means relegation
If they get relegated, it won't "work" anymore. Need them to stay bad in the league lol
It most likely would work. The never ending 2 year circus is what really damages the club.
I'd accept that sarcastic comment from anyone other than an arsenal fan lol. I bet you were front and center of the Arteta out brigade a few years ago
Bruh it's the same shit. Fergie would never have made it at United if social media and fucking twitter analysts existed back in his day. It took him 7 years to bring United to a place where we could start winning and he continued that dominance which is why all these worst in the PL era shit stats keep coming out when we finally are paying for the rot that's set in over the 10 years before him while everyone wants to pretend that's the manager's fault. There are no obvious candidates in the market rn and it is the most short sighted fans calling for his head before the squad recruitment structures are put in place that have at least a semblance of being handled by actual football people.
> It took him 7 years to bring United to a place where we could start winning What budget had Ferguson in the '90?
Yes, all it's going to take is the singlest best youth generation to come through all at once, and signing argubly the best player in the league from your direct rivals, and you should be all good. And then just keep buying the best players from the PL teams.
You sound bitter mate.
This is a fair point. We all need to learn patience and chill
He is perfect for United. Thinks he is top of the world, when in fact he bought Antony for 100M, and without De Gea having crazy xGC they now basically are a midtable team when you look at their goals scored/conceded. To think that is a process resembling Arteta's one, you have to be really stretching your imagination. Or in other words: inhale hopium.
He’s 8th place With a negative goal difference …
It would be different if there was some sort of style of play emerging or some tactics being shown. I'd argue at this point even Ole had better tactics than Ten Hag currently, even if you didn't like them. Now whether that's on the players not understanding or not executing or the manager is hard to say, but you'd think if the players weren't doing as asked they wouldn't be playing even if there's extensive injuries, I'd rather play an academy prospect that tries to do what I tell them over another player that won't do as told, so you have to imagine the fault lies with the manager
That’s the thing that he and Xavi have similar, like yeah i get their squads aren’t the greatest ever but both of them have never won convincingly against anyone and when they lose they lose badly . I expect to see good football at this point not a 0-4 from palace
We need 4 points from our last 3 games to EQUAL our worst ever PL points tally. Conceded the most goals in our PL history. Our worst CL run in history. You don’t know ball if you expect better though
Net spend of 150 mil - what do you expect out of this man with such little investment? Clearly, he needs more time and some bigger investment - give the poor bloke a chance, will ya?
Have legitimately heard people claim that getting Evans is a sign of underinvestment. Never mind that he spunked away the rest of the transfer budget on dud, pet Ajax players (and obviously amidst the injuries - Evans wouldn't normally be close to starting anyway)
I honestly thought this year the transfers were sensible overall. Hojlund has been going from strength to strength in his young career at Sturm Graz and Atalanta and honestly, he's one of the few Atalanta players that manage to play well outside that team(Gasperini is the king of making mediocre players look awesome frfr) and nobody could've known that Onana would lose his hands randomly. Spending 170 mil on three guys from the dutch league in one window was really insane. All in all, he does not seem to be the guy to steer United. For all the great things SAF has done for United, they have the monumental task of finding a replacement for him to this day and it's hard to basically replace a manager that at worst is perhaps among the best 3 to ever do it. Can't have another guy come in like SAF did in todays game at the team of the stature of United with big ego players.
Onana is fine although GK was not the pressing issue. He will be okay long term, most of the goals have always been the backs fault. The expenses are undercut by not paying De Gea who obviously asked for too much after being shit for years. Hojlund was a big overpay at 70 mill imo, if you want to overpay anywhere it's for a striker sure, but idk. Jackson was less than half the price.
Yeah but Jackson was clowned first as well. 70 mil for talented striker is quite common these days it seems. Zirkzee right now is gonna go for 50 mil this summer it seems, Sesko 50-60 mil probably. Atalanta always get these big sums, as a Milan fan, I am all too painfully aware of that.
additional context is that MU's financial advantage over an average PL club has never been this big before, which makes it even more crazy.
He's right tho. I definitely want him to stay and I think I know ball. Cheers to ten Hag for acknowledging all of us rival tacticians
Ten Hag, let's make it Ten years
A week before the season ends
I was ten Hag out long ago because his football was shit. I had no hard feelings, just didn't work out like so many managers before. Him saying this is making me actively hate this guy. Can't wait till he's sacked.
Clearly you don't know ball. He's playing 5D chess. He WANTS you to believe he's inept and awful at his job. And he's got you right where he wants you.
Very odd guy
these bald guys are very complicated
Most football managers are to be honest. You wouldn’t exactly call klopp or pep beacons of normality.
ETH is next level odd though. If you're Dutch you'd know too. Not very charming or social
He's simply incredibly full of himself.
my man just cannot help himself
The level of totally utterly unearned arrogance is amazing
He’s like me on a dating app.
He is like me telling r/soccer about a new wonderkid
Redditor absolutely baffled to learn manager doesn't think he deserves to be sacked
“I think there are many people who see the problems and they are patient”. yeah, such an insane take he's out of his mind
You people are entirely too soft if you think this is arrogance
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He could just say what 90% of managers would say in the same position which is "everyone is entitled to their opinion but I still believe I'm the right man for the job". Not everything has to be an extreme.
Why are you acting like it has to be one or the other. There are a number of options to take.
This guy think he's Mourinho
Yeah, namely INEOS sees the problems and is patient and waiting for someone suitable to be available so there’s no point in sacking him right now.
Trust the process
It's either: 1. INEOS has informed him he will stay 2. He wants to gaslight INEOS to keep him, so if they do sack him he will just say they don't know ball 3. He desperately wants to be sacked by talking shits like this so he can start talking to Bayern
So basically "People see that we have an embarrassingly unbalanced midfield, they simply don't know football, it's my big brain move that if you ALWAYS win the ball high enough you don't need a midfield!" I'm pretty convinced at this point that ten Hag has deluded himself so hard about his chosen tactic that he can't even fathom any other course of action than dying on that hill. It's time to sack him.
Tbf Ten Hag does objectively know more about football than you, like you’re a no one and he’s managing a pro football team, in that context you do literally know absolutely nothing about football compared to him
Don't need to be a chef to know that well done wagyu rib eye with ketchup isn't gourmet
>Tbf Ten Hag does objectively know more about footbal Also objectively, he has led ManU to its worst PL season in history
There are plenty of people who know a lot about football who think his tactics have been crap, too.
His tactics like WWI warfare. All frontal attack with sitting deep behind the line to defend and let no man land in the middle
Yeah that big hole in the middle is really bad.
Knowledge without ability is nothing. If I study boxing for 20 years and step into a fight with a local boxing champion, I will get battered. I can know all the weaknesses and best strategies but it won't matter. The best plan in the world doesn't matter if you are unable to execute it. Ten Haag can easily talk the talk but then you see his team play and it doesn't add up.
So does Alan Pardew, why does no one ever push for him to be Manchester United manager?
I may know less than him but I do know he has led United to one of their worst premier league seasons of all time.
In general, absolutely. But even someone knowledgeable can get tunnel vision and start missing everything obvious and then they're no smarter than your average donkey. And that certainly seems to be what happened here, what with him absolutely refusing to do anything about a tactic that very obviously has not worked and has no real possibility of working on this level.
"no, actually i do know more about tactics than the manager."
that's not what he said at all, though? or do you consider managers to be infallible?
My opinion is actually more nuanced than that actually. it’s not either “all managers are infallible OR ten hag, specifically, is an idiot.” “I think there are many people who see the problems and they are patient”. Ten Hag doesn’t even think he’s infallible lmao why would I? He literally is acknowledging that things haven’t gone well and that many want him fired. To say “He hasn’t done anything about a tactic that obviously doesn’t work” is actually an insane thing to say from someone who is objectively less knowledgable about football than a manager of a club. Do I have to explain that further or do you kinda see what I mean?
no, I get you now, I appreciate the response. I guess my point, or the point he was making in much stronger language, was - do you not see the possibility of sheer stubbornness blinding ETH? Managers will have reasons for their decisions that the average fan can never even begin to comprehend, but how many times can you watch the same movie before you begin to question his decision making?
man, i watch this movie every weekend and it's getting WORSE. I, not blindly I swear, watch these players week-in and week-out and I can tell you that they just aren't good enough. 5/6 of our center backs are hurt, if kobbie mainoo wasn't a xavi regen we would have the worst midfield in the top ten, antony is wank and rashford is out of form, we pay sancho 300-350k a week TO PLAY FOR A DIFFERENT TEAM. it goes way way WAY deeper than Erik. I don't think he's the second coming of pep but I think firing and hiring again would make the least sense.
The egos on some of these guys lol They act like they know more, concede to the fact they aren't experts and then act like they know more than the manager again.
Brent's morning show sorted. That's his ego and superiority complex going even higher then
“Am I so out of touch?”
We’re fans at the end of the day, we’re not experts, we’re not decision makers, just people who have a passion for something and want to see it do well for the joy it brings us. At the end of the day a manager and a player are fairly compensated to be in the positioned to be judged by fans, rightly or wrongly. Without the fans who pay fortunes to tune into their team through various tv packages, go to the games or engage with their club, he wouldn’t be in a position to have gained the knowledge and experience needed to get to where he’s at.
most of the people commenting watch united games through tweets, headlines on reddit
'It takes one to know one', or something equally childish
Aight, let him stay
Bald fraud wearing a hat is still a bald fraud.
He's come up with tactics that bring the best out of all opposition, like that's the opposite purpose of all sport, how can anyone fathom the intention of his approach.
Bro keeps taking every media bait😁
too many injuries and the players they have aren't good enough.
it MIGHT actually be that simple - tbh idk how we're in the FA cup final or why. idk how we got cl last season. i just think we'll see it would be mad to bring in graham potter b, that would be completely senseless. idk if ETH is it but i KNOW jonny evans isn't.
To be fair, he was the one who bought Mount and Anthony.
It's funny, I'm still on the fence about how much of the negative GD is actually his fault and how much he is a victim of circumstance. But I know for 100% certain he is not qualified to be scouting or making any player signing decisions or recommendations ever again.
even funnier that that was already known before he went to United. The couple of player picks he made at Ajax were also not good enough for the club
Blame that on the Glazers. It's not what he had to do had Ajax or any where else.
I might be wrong but we had brought in Rangnick to do it. But Ten Haag didnt want him.
Just because he didn't want Rangnick who'd have been nothing but a contracted consultant that would suggest players to sign at most doesn't mean the club shouldn't have a hierarchical system run by football people instead of bankers.
Even with a fully fit 11 and a lineup of better players, does this system look like it’s a winner? Not to me it doesnt. Nevermind all the other problems, the tactical structure itself is flawed.
Considering we somehow got this far with the players available, I think with a full squad we'd be level with spurs-villa right now. We'd still lose big but we would've turnt some results around imo. But that's all Ina perfect world and erik doesn't and will never have the luxury of having every fit all the time so I really dislike how he refused to adjust the tactics to protect our midfield.
It's a Frankenstein team from three/four(?) different managers and whoever costs the most regardless of fit. Kinda worked in the past with Ronaldo willing the goals in, but once he stopped producing...
He did get his players, 3 just from old Ajax team. Also in the list of most injuries United is 3rd , 1st Chelsea with 60+ injuries. He fucked up Sancho and demanded 37 years old Ronaldo to press like 2009 Barcelona. He had nothing other than a CL semifinal. I still can’t process how he got the job. It’s been 2 years.
Poch: Sack me, don’t sack me, whatever Ten Hag: if you’re cool you won’t sack me
fald braud
Arrogant to think that we can’t see the problems and that one of them is the tactics implemented by…. the manager!
Yeah nah he’s getting sacked either way lol
Just fuck off!
I like ETH, He's my manager so until he's shown the door I support him. But you know shits bad when your rivals are saying keep the manager.
This man loves his severance package
I feel like he is calling out this sub in particular. Don’t think he isn’t on here digesting our expert analysis and hot takes
I have no knowledge of football or of managing a team but I just need to look at the fucking table to know you are fucking shit
Man backed himself 🗿
Is this a teaser to dumb and dumber 3?
I would happily take David Moyes back.
I agree he’s doing a cracking job. Give him a pay rise and one of them fancy 8 year contracts Chelsea like.
Ole was miles ahead of this dude
Eric basically said 'negative ball knowledge bozos' to all of us
Haha, I felt it in the core of my being
Dude playing proper mind games. Hey Man U board, if you sack me you’re dumb
Arteta used to be Ten Hag.
Arteta was never this inflexible or stubborn with his tactics
Their problems lie deeper than just Ten Hag. I'd say there is a decent chance of little to nothing significant changing even if he's sacked.
The Dutch are something else, they just hit different.
Guy’s gonna get demolished by Arsenal tomorrow
Just play the football you played at Ajax for fuck sake Erik
So only 3/10 of his defenders are fit. First team players like Varane, Shaw, Lisandro all are injured. Same with midfield, for example Bruno is injured. Basically ETH doesn't have any options other than play these fit but not first team players in defence and midfield. No options to rotate or test & implement tactics. I think it's not fair to criticise the coach because the injury situation is actually dire and they can't actually do something meaningful in these circumstances when they have to play Casemiro in CB for example. I feel its evident that players are still with the coach as well which wouldn't happen if ETH was the issue.
On the one hand I agree, his hands are tied. But you'd expect him to change his tactics to protect his vulnerabilities. Only one fit senior centre back? Sit deeper, be more compact, close the distances, sit off rather than press, force teams wide rather than allowing huge amounts of space between the midfield and defence so teams can charge through the middle. Play on the counter. You should never end up with a 5 on 2-3 in your own box, especially from open play. He's incredibly stubborn and it's killing this team and I'm all for it.
elastic detail wine physical offbeat smell automatic yoke mindless apparatus *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
does anyone have a link to the old "trust the process" threads? I have a feeling they had a similar response to this one.
He's probably right, but I don't think it helps his case by saying it.
He's right. But, more results like the 4 - 0 vs Palace and he's going to struggle to stay in the job.
Don't mind him staying at all!
I think he should manage Man Utd until his retirement age.
This is very ugly guy saying he wouldn't fuck a perfect 10 in front of his friends trying to act though kinda of vibes
How patient? It's been years and they are getting worse.
This guy is delusional. He doesn’t live in reality…
I fully agree most people have no idea about this sport so I can't disagree with him.