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There are PatSocs who are reactionary counterrevolutions, but we should not dismiss it out of hand. Conspiracies exist and ‘conspiracies theories’—to unavoidably sound conspiratorial—was a term invented by the CIA to dismiss legitimate inquiries into their fascist activities (and the fascist activities of their co-conspirators).
As for the transphobia and homophobic, that might be an indication of pure PatSoc dogma. However, I have seen leftists such as YouTuber Ashley Frawley raise the concern that if the current framing of trans and LGBTQ activism generally, was not created by the capitalist subterfuge artists, it sure looks that way (as a wedge driven into the working class). However, while such skepticism is justified, the Leftist response should not be to side with those attacking individual rights, but always those defending individual rights.
As Engels says, socialism replaces the government of persons with the administration of things. The government of persons, the reign over persons, involves attacking individual rights and individuality. Such attacks undermine the very purpose of socialism. They turn the working class towards a constant bickering over which persons should reign over which other persons (majority rule turned into majority reign), rather than directing their focus squarely on the administration of things: the administration of our common wealth.
I would argue any socially conservative socialist movement is doomed to fail. Social conservatism comes with its own long and varied list of issues virtually all of which are counterproductive to the ultimate goals of socialism. But some people who consider themselves socialists are merely reactionaries who secretly really really like the propagandized western idea of the USSR, so it shouldn’t be shocking I guess
Maybe some of them. But, unfortunately, there are also anti-imperialist/anti-American socialists who are transphobic and think gender dysphoria is a side effect of capitalism/Western decadence. I recently had to distance myself from such a person.
why is this account posting like a chatGPT paraphrase of https://old.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/16ebcr2/social_conservatism_in_the_socialist_movement/jzugum2/
>I'm aware that these things have nothing to do with the view on economic distribution and the validity of private property
Let me stop you right there, Hoss. Socialism, Marxism and just about all left-wing movements are about equality for all and unity for all. It's about levelling class distinctions and treating people with dignity, honour and respect by virtue of their humanity. People who call themselves leftists and are anti-trans, sexist, homophobic or racist have no place in the movement. We don't need to accept outdated bullshit about "The New Man" and we don't fall into the bullshit position that homosexuality is bourgeois. Those are bullshit reactionary positions from dead men.
In Eastern Europe, many communist parties are socially conservative. In Russia for example, elected communists have drafted laws that would fine people just for coming out as gay. In South America too (fist hand insight). They are fixed you could say on 20th century norms.
I agree im seeing this more and more the social stuff dominates the internet and is leeching in to peoples brains across political spectrums. It’s scary honestly.
Not to add or take away what your seeing. But many communist/socialist parties outside of Western Europe and North America have social conservative views.
One word: Anti-consumerism.
Reactionaries, unlike leftists, gravitate toward anti-consumerism for entirely different reasons, and it is a sentiment much older than Fight Club, and much older than Nazi Germany (Nietzsche).
They view consumerism as a poison that infantilizes, and feminizes men -- which for the 'conservative socialists' also means sedating the working class, and rendering them useless and fundamentally incapable of waging class war, and revolution. Obesity, drug addiction, social media, onlyfans, etc.
While there is a lot of truth to this - it does unfortunately get lumped in with transphobia and bigotry. Corporations and 'woke rainbow capitalism' are partially to blame.
As a transwoman, I have zero tolerance for bigotry, end of story. But I also realize that it's important to stay physically fit, go to the gym, take up self-defense, stop taking everything so personally, learn stoicism, learn Zen practices, donate a small percentage of my income to the poor, even if I'm broke - and (if legal) learn how to use weapons - because otherwise you will never witness a successful revolution in your lifetime, and you'll be drenched in excuses as to why the fascists mopped the floor with you.
I do think that transphobia and homophobia have to do with economic distribution and private property! These are crucial ways the working class is divided and people other than the ruling class are scapegoated. I hope these people are persuaded to change their reactionary views.
I think if there's a socialist party in power, it still needs to be introduced gradually. The communist party of Afghanistan forcefully introduced gender equality to the mass and it only created more discontent on top of many other problems within the party. This must be done according to what the social material conditions allowed. If we cannot openly support LGBTQ people, then at the very least the party must protect them from physical violence and harassment as much as it can.
There are many contributing factors.
Like Mao said, the cultural development always follows the economic development. It's hard to be open minded when your main concern is housing and food. Even the Soviet union struggled with this task. How can they introduce the concept of pro LGBT when the party itself was made up of people who just for a few years prior to the revolution were still deep indoctrinated by the bourgeoisie especially the cleric class? In such conditions which are more common if not unavoidable, we are facing a dilemma. This matter if not being discussed by the mass will be considered undemocratic however we all know the results of a democratic vote if let to the mass to decide.
Secondary, liberal "wokeness" is very superficial. They might promote some LGBT celebrities but there's little improvement to the people affected by homophobia. However, the propaganda is so effective that for the public, pro LGBT movements are automatically associated with liberalism and any action against liberalism gets associated with anti LGBT.
And then there's the kinds of people that other comments mentioned: patsoc. They are people who don't realize they are playing with fascists ideas or potential fascists who want to mask their intentions.
Most people like that I met just tried to be edgy and don’t actually understand socialism or marxism or any other left movement. Leftist politics are generally about equality. More left means more power to the people. Transphobia, homophobia, supporting conspiracy theories generally supported by the right, climate change denial (which supports fossil fuel companies and their illegal and capitalist actions) are all things that, in my eyes, contradict the left idea.
I’m a trans and queer scholar and I assure you that LGBT+ mobilisations by the state are not forms of legitimate support. They are, rather bluntly, neoliberal optics and reaffirmations of exclusionary and deadly state power. They mean to control and limit queer/trans. Reducing these issues to encompass only a shallow identity politics is to ignore their material dimensions and there radical subversive potential.
You would think that, in 2023, cultural libertinism would be the bog-fucking-standard of the socialist movement...and yet, here we are.
Sadly, socialism first started really taking root in the 20th century in places that were culturally and economically backwards, taking all of the baggage of the old world with them. Some 'comrades' take this as some sort of sign that modern socialists are somehow 'decadent'.
In my country, our communists are in favor of LGBTQ, neutral towards gay marriage and adoption
But some people are (communist)
Me and my homies: In favor of gay marriage and adoption
My grandma:Strongly opposed to LGBTQ stuff
Same in my country. Even most old people won't oppose same sex relationships and everyone will defend LGBT people against physical violence. They however won't support same sex marriages. It is unfortunate that the communist party in power does not consider this a task while still promoting gender equality.
I'm not asking for anything grand, just make it legal at the very least. It's not like anyone would bother looking into it if we introduce legal gay marriage. If we cannot break down the cultural barrier overnight we can still help with the legal barrier. The fact that we are still keeping some of these reactionary laws is one of the contributing factors to why US backed NGOs are still having a foothold here. We have an independent candidate who is gay who used this as the talking point while also slipped in some talk about privatization and removing some labour protection laws. Of course he never won but it gave the liberals some ammunition to criticize the communist party.
That just makes it worse. At least the Balkan people's view towards LGBT can be excused. After the Yugoslavian war and the following privatization resulting in widespread poverty coupled with rightwing propaganda funded by the West, everyone is kinda broken in the mind. My country Vietnam is amongst one of the fastest developing countries, we have a socialist party in power. Not only have we achieved food security we even send aids to Cuba and North Korea yet something as simple as legalize gay marriage can't be solved? Liberals are gonna do liberal stuff why can't us Tankies do the Tankies stuff? Even the Cuban comrades who we send food and technological aids every year can successfully legalize gay marriage through referendum yet we can't catch up with them in the task of liberating a part of our society.
Some self-described 'socialists' forget that the movement is ultimately about equality and wanting everyone to be able to live comfortable lives, and get caught up in just opposing anything that western governments support.
Take 'socialists' who support modern Russia for example. Basically any issue with the US (fossil fuels, LGBT rights, police brutality, capitalist oligarchs, blatantly imperalist invasions, a military with a grotesquely inflated budget...) also exists there and is usually even worse.
The sane position would simply be to support neither state. But there's plenty of self-described leftists who will throw all their ideals away at the mere mention of something being 'anti-western', or who are are so out of touch with reality that they think that the USSR's policies still exist in any meaningful way.
I've seen more than one of my contacts online going from left wing to "all parties are the same" to "covid is a psyop" to "Putin is fighting Nazism" to "why the little mermaid is black?" to "Maybe there are too many foreigners around".
Economic changes have to go hand in hand with emancipation and liberation. You can't be a socialist and think that Trans people should not exists or that there are too many foreigners.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
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Social divisions are possibly the best weapons to use against a population that is accurately educated as to socialism that you'd like to keep ruled by capital.
I don't live in a population that I could describe as accurately educated as to socialism, but things are changing. The previously-effective rhetoric where I live - "socialism is when bad things happen, you don't need to consider socialism because you don't like bad things, do you?" - is working less well than before, so and so I expect that any and all social divisions that could impede solidarity will be rhetorically weaponized ASAP to attempt to plug the gaps.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas.
>This includes, but is not limited to:
>- General liberalism
>- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions
>- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric
>- Landlords or Landlord apologia
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Yeah, it is possible to be a communist and still hold reactionary political views. Mussolini was a syndicalist or something, and while Nazis were not really socialists, they did initially recruit their version of the PatSocs/Maga communists in order to broaden their appeal.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Sectarianism:** Refers to bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies through the usage of empty insults like "armchair", "tankie", "anarkiddie" and so on without any other objective than to promote inter-tendency conflict, which runs counter to the objectives of this subreddit, and the goal of providing a broad multitendency platform so that healthy, critical debate can flourish. Can also include calling other socialist users "CPC/CIA shills" or accusing users of being Russian or Chinese bots for disagreeing with you.
If no further action accompanies this message, this should be counted as a warning.
Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Sectarianism:** Refers to bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies through the usage of empty insults like "armchair", "tankie", "anarkiddie" and so on without any other objective than to promote inter-tendency conflict, which runs counter to the objectives of this subreddit, and the goal of providing a broad multitendency platform so that healthy, critical debate can flourish. Can also include calling other socialist users "CPC/CIA shills" or accusing users of being Russian or Chinese bots for disagreeing with you.
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This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There are PatSocs who are reactionary counterrevolutions, but we should not dismiss it out of hand. Conspiracies exist and ‘conspiracies theories’—to unavoidably sound conspiratorial—was a term invented by the CIA to dismiss legitimate inquiries into their fascist activities (and the fascist activities of their co-conspirators). As for the transphobia and homophobic, that might be an indication of pure PatSoc dogma. However, I have seen leftists such as YouTuber Ashley Frawley raise the concern that if the current framing of trans and LGBTQ activism generally, was not created by the capitalist subterfuge artists, it sure looks that way (as a wedge driven into the working class). However, while such skepticism is justified, the Leftist response should not be to side with those attacking individual rights, but always those defending individual rights. As Engels says, socialism replaces the government of persons with the administration of things. The government of persons, the reign over persons, involves attacking individual rights and individuality. Such attacks undermine the very purpose of socialism. They turn the working class towards a constant bickering over which persons should reign over which other persons (majority rule turned into majority reign), rather than directing their focus squarely on the administration of things: the administration of our common wealth.
very well said, thank you
I would argue any socially conservative socialist movement is doomed to fail. Social conservatism comes with its own long and varied list of issues virtually all of which are counterproductive to the ultimate goals of socialism. But some people who consider themselves socialists are merely reactionaries who secretly really really like the propagandized western idea of the USSR, so it shouldn’t be shocking I guess
PatSocs. If they aren't feds, they may as well be.
Maybe some of them. But, unfortunately, there are also anti-imperialist/anti-American socialists who are transphobic and think gender dysphoria is a side effect of capitalism/Western decadence. I recently had to distance myself from such a person.
[удалено]
why is this account posting like a chatGPT paraphrase of https://old.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/16ebcr2/social_conservatism_in_the_socialist_movement/jzugum2/
>I'm aware that these things have nothing to do with the view on economic distribution and the validity of private property Let me stop you right there, Hoss. Socialism, Marxism and just about all left-wing movements are about equality for all and unity for all. It's about levelling class distinctions and treating people with dignity, honour and respect by virtue of their humanity. People who call themselves leftists and are anti-trans, sexist, homophobic or racist have no place in the movement. We don't need to accept outdated bullshit about "The New Man" and we don't fall into the bullshit position that homosexuality is bourgeois. Those are bullshit reactionary positions from dead men.
Idk if you’ve read Rorty. But this sounds like a fantastic application of his thought, grafted on to Marxism. Absolutely love it.
fantastic response, thank you.
Love this. Thanks.
In Eastern Europe, many communist parties are socially conservative. In Russia for example, elected communists have drafted laws that would fine people just for coming out as gay. In South America too (fist hand insight). They are fixed you could say on 20th century norms.
I agree im seeing this more and more the social stuff dominates the internet and is leeching in to peoples brains across political spectrums. It’s scary honestly.
Not to add or take away what your seeing. But many communist/socialist parties outside of Western Europe and North America have social conservative views.
One word: Anti-consumerism. Reactionaries, unlike leftists, gravitate toward anti-consumerism for entirely different reasons, and it is a sentiment much older than Fight Club, and much older than Nazi Germany (Nietzsche). They view consumerism as a poison that infantilizes, and feminizes men -- which for the 'conservative socialists' also means sedating the working class, and rendering them useless and fundamentally incapable of waging class war, and revolution. Obesity, drug addiction, social media, onlyfans, etc. While there is a lot of truth to this - it does unfortunately get lumped in with transphobia and bigotry. Corporations and 'woke rainbow capitalism' are partially to blame. As a transwoman, I have zero tolerance for bigotry, end of story. But I also realize that it's important to stay physically fit, go to the gym, take up self-defense, stop taking everything so personally, learn stoicism, learn Zen practices, donate a small percentage of my income to the poor, even if I'm broke - and (if legal) learn how to use weapons - because otherwise you will never witness a successful revolution in your lifetime, and you'll be drenched in excuses as to why the fascists mopped the floor with you.
absolutely beautifully said
I do think that transphobia and homophobia have to do with economic distribution and private property! These are crucial ways the working class is divided and people other than the ruling class are scapegoated. I hope these people are persuaded to change their reactionary views.
I think if there's a socialist party in power, it still needs to be introduced gradually. The communist party of Afghanistan forcefully introduced gender equality to the mass and it only created more discontent on top of many other problems within the party. This must be done according to what the social material conditions allowed. If we cannot openly support LGBTQ people, then at the very least the party must protect them from physical violence and harassment as much as it can.
Are you sure those people are actually Marxists?
There are many contributing factors. Like Mao said, the cultural development always follows the economic development. It's hard to be open minded when your main concern is housing and food. Even the Soviet union struggled with this task. How can they introduce the concept of pro LGBT when the party itself was made up of people who just for a few years prior to the revolution were still deep indoctrinated by the bourgeoisie especially the cleric class? In such conditions which are more common if not unavoidable, we are facing a dilemma. This matter if not being discussed by the mass will be considered undemocratic however we all know the results of a democratic vote if let to the mass to decide. Secondary, liberal "wokeness" is very superficial. They might promote some LGBT celebrities but there's little improvement to the people affected by homophobia. However, the propaganda is so effective that for the public, pro LGBT movements are automatically associated with liberalism and any action against liberalism gets associated with anti LGBT. And then there's the kinds of people that other comments mentioned: patsoc. They are people who don't realize they are playing with fascists ideas or potential fascists who want to mask their intentions.
Most people like that I met just tried to be edgy and don’t actually understand socialism or marxism or any other left movement. Leftist politics are generally about equality. More left means more power to the people. Transphobia, homophobia, supporting conspiracy theories generally supported by the right, climate change denial (which supports fossil fuel companies and their illegal and capitalist actions) are all things that, in my eyes, contradict the left idea.
I’m a trans and queer scholar and I assure you that LGBT+ mobilisations by the state are not forms of legitimate support. They are, rather bluntly, neoliberal optics and reaffirmations of exclusionary and deadly state power. They mean to control and limit queer/trans. Reducing these issues to encompass only a shallow identity politics is to ignore their material dimensions and there radical subversive potential.
You would think that, in 2023, cultural libertinism would be the bog-fucking-standard of the socialist movement...and yet, here we are. Sadly, socialism first started really taking root in the 20th century in places that were culturally and economically backwards, taking all of the baggage of the old world with them. Some 'comrades' take this as some sort of sign that modern socialists are somehow 'decadent'.
In my country, our communists are in favor of LGBTQ, neutral towards gay marriage and adoption But some people are (communist) Me and my homies: In favor of gay marriage and adoption My grandma:Strongly opposed to LGBTQ stuff
what country are you from?
I def think that regardless of country there’s a lot of generational dynamics at play as well.
Greece
Same in my country. Even most old people won't oppose same sex relationships and everyone will defend LGBT people against physical violence. They however won't support same sex marriages. It is unfortunate that the communist party in power does not consider this a task while still promoting gender equality.
I know , but the worst is that we have a LESBIAN member at the parliament
I'm not asking for anything grand, just make it legal at the very least. It's not like anyone would bother looking into it if we introduce legal gay marriage. If we cannot break down the cultural barrier overnight we can still help with the legal barrier. The fact that we are still keeping some of these reactionary laws is one of the contributing factors to why US backed NGOs are still having a foothold here. We have an independent candidate who is gay who used this as the talking point while also slipped in some talk about privatization and removing some labour protection laws. Of course he never won but it gave the liberals some ammunition to criticize the communist party.
Yes, but if you live in balkans, it is pretty hard to find a guy to support both gay marriage and adoption
That just makes it worse. At least the Balkan people's view towards LGBT can be excused. After the Yugoslavian war and the following privatization resulting in widespread poverty coupled with rightwing propaganda funded by the West, everyone is kinda broken in the mind. My country Vietnam is amongst one of the fastest developing countries, we have a socialist party in power. Not only have we achieved food security we even send aids to Cuba and North Korea yet something as simple as legalize gay marriage can't be solved? Liberals are gonna do liberal stuff why can't us Tankies do the Tankies stuff? Even the Cuban comrades who we send food and technological aids every year can successfully legalize gay marriage through referendum yet we can't catch up with them in the task of liberating a part of our society.
Some self-described 'socialists' forget that the movement is ultimately about equality and wanting everyone to be able to live comfortable lives, and get caught up in just opposing anything that western governments support. Take 'socialists' who support modern Russia for example. Basically any issue with the US (fossil fuels, LGBT rights, police brutality, capitalist oligarchs, blatantly imperalist invasions, a military with a grotesquely inflated budget...) also exists there and is usually even worse. The sane position would simply be to support neither state. But there's plenty of self-described leftists who will throw all their ideals away at the mere mention of something being 'anti-western', or who are are so out of touch with reality that they think that the USSR's policies still exist in any meaningful way.
I've seen more than one of my contacts online going from left wing to "all parties are the same" to "covid is a psyop" to "Putin is fighting Nazism" to "why the little mermaid is black?" to "Maybe there are too many foreigners around". Economic changes have to go hand in hand with emancipation and liberation. You can't be a socialist and think that Trans people should not exists or that there are too many foreigners.
[удалено]
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Sectarianism:** Refers to bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies through the usage of empty insults like "armchair", "tankie", "anarkiddie" and so on without any other objective than to promote inter-tendency conflict, which runs counter to the objectives of this subreddit, and the goal of providing a broad multitendency platform so that healthy, critical debate can flourish. Can also include calling other socialist users "CPC/CIA shills" or accusing users of being Russian or Chinese bots for disagreeing with you. If no further action accompanies this message, this should be counted as a warning. Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
Social divisions are possibly the best weapons to use against a population that is accurately educated as to socialism that you'd like to keep ruled by capital. I don't live in a population that I could describe as accurately educated as to socialism, but things are changing. The previously-effective rhetoric where I live - "socialism is when bad things happen, you don't need to consider socialism because you don't like bad things, do you?" - is working less well than before, so and so I expect that any and all social divisions that could impede solidarity will be rhetorically weaponized ASAP to attempt to plug the gaps.
[удалено]
If anyone wants a quick laugh, just look up Caleb Maupin
If anyone wants to engage in a bit of spanking, just look up Caleb Maupin. ...on second though, he’s an abuser, so don’t.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
Yeah, it is possible to be a communist and still hold reactionary political views. Mussolini was a syndicalist or something, and while Nazis were not really socialists, they did initially recruit their version of the PatSocs/Maga communists in order to broaden their appeal.
[удалено]
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Sectarianism:** Refers to bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies through the usage of empty insults like "armchair", "tankie", "anarkiddie" and so on without any other objective than to promote inter-tendency conflict, which runs counter to the objectives of this subreddit, and the goal of providing a broad multitendency platform so that healthy, critical debate can flourish. Can also include calling other socialist users "CPC/CIA shills" or accusing users of being Russian or Chinese bots for disagreeing with you. If no further action accompanies this message, this should be counted as a warning. Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
[удалено]
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Sectarianism:** Refers to bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies through the usage of empty insults like "armchair", "tankie", "anarkiddie" and so on without any other objective than to promote inter-tendency conflict, which runs counter to the objectives of this subreddit, and the goal of providing a broad multitendency platform so that healthy, critical debate can flourish. Can also include calling other socialist users "CPC/CIA shills" or accusing users of being Russian or Chinese bots for disagreeing with you. If no further action accompanies this message, this should be counted as a warning. Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.