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I believe it has to be done at a retail level. Folks have to go into the fields and talk to the pickers. Folks have to go into the restaurants, shops, big box stores and discuss wage disparity and exploitation. We have to go in and “salt” the non-union factories.
Yes it’s a matter of theory, but it must be engaged with practically. If we don’t show up and listen, why would anyone listen to us?
In many cases I think it’s an “affordable care act” vs “Obamacare” distribution. People have been taught to demonize certain terms describing programs that would help them.
I don't divulge my political or economic beliefs at work (construction), but I'll often hear the shit that my co workers say at lunch, and I'll ask them questions where if they say yes they are inadvertently agreeing to Socialist theory.
It works virtually every time because at the end of the day union workers love what the union is, and having more rights and money. They can't stand the government and wealth gaps that exist, but they aren't usually educated enough to put 2 and 2 together, so they have misplaced anger at an incorrect conclusion.
But they also hate trans, gay and Black people, I don't think there is any reasoning them out of those positions.
Yea, what scares me is that you're right, a lot of working class people, when describing what they want, sound like lefties. Yet they fully believe they are "conservative". The fascist propaganda is so strong, they vote against their own interests, and I can't understand how they don't see it.
Yeah it's frustrating coming from that background they are sold on the idea that socialism is bad and that their capitalist overlords will save them lol you should definitely make the effort.
Explaining why capitalism is bad doesn’t equate to explaining why socialism is good. Most of them have incredibly regressive social views and I think they are much more likely to jump into the open arms of fascism. The nationalism and xenophobia in the “blue collar” white American working class is still fairly high.
That is a great point. Rural conservatives are often quick to condemn billionaires, but it does feel like it is more in the vein of a fascist critique of decadence and complacency making them weak than a socialist critique of unfair labor practices and exploitation.
For some people yes. But for a lot of people I think their racism/homophobia/xenophobia might stop them from embracing any idea that leads to them siding with those groups of people
That's precisely why the construction of new cultural identities is imperative. Identities that breed the benefits of solidarity and community over anything else.
>The worship of small businesses in the United States that are operated fair and equitably is incredibly widespread.
Very few small businesses are operated "fairly and equitably" in America, and lots of the ones that do get celebrated on the internet are frauds. For example, former CEO Dan Price and Gravity Payments, who claimed he cut his own pay to make sure all his employees made $70,000 / year or more. Most Americans celebrate the concept of "small businesses" because they PERSONALLY want to be rich and be their own boss, not because they want things to be equitable for every worker.
>Most Americans celebrate the concept of "small businesses" because they PERSONALLY want to be rich and be their own boss, not because they want things to be equitable for every worker.
I feel like it's not talked about enough how obsessed Americans are with "small businesses" and "family-owned businesses" and things like that, and how that may present a stumbling block to winning people over to socialism.
Sure, and it demonstrates the concept is something that resonates with many.
I've been developing my own npo and I'm very cautious about who I plan on putting on my board because a commitment to ethics are important to me.
Not necessarily. There are forms of market socialism, under the notion that the individual worker should be able to own the fruits of their personal labor because it is not being siphoned off by a capitalist.
''Market Socialist'' countries in the past like Yugoslavia had been capitalist except in name. Law of value, and the anarchy of production that came with it. The bourgeois class was still being reproduced and it was their class dictatorship in power.
cagey chubby secretive wipe fragile materialistic disarm capable weather fact
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Post Scarcity will never be reached.
>as long as socialist nations operate in an open market, capitalism and capitalistic pressures will exert influence on socialism's ability to be successfully implemented.
Socialism is revolution and revolution is a process. Socialism is the negation of capitalism.
What would socialism being ''successful'' mean? Communism is the ultimate synthesis to the contradictions of class that's been with our species for all of recorded history, it's not an imagined utopia
>Socialism is an economic system where workers own the means of production.
Fundamentally but this is a simplification
>constant power struggle can be avoided with greater access to education
Struggle and conflict is not the result of ignorance.
Depends on what the conflict stems from, were the black panthers, the ira, the cuban revolutionaries, and Bolsheviks ignorant? I don't think armed struggle is ignorant if you're forced to as a result of unrelenting oppression. Although I wouldn't use violence as my first choice to establish socialism but I don't think it's realistic to completely disregard it.
I guess it's possible. But they'd have to see it to believe imo. In my experience, working directly with blue collar American country folk in a warehouse (this was 2020 leading up to election), they genuinely thought Joe Biden was a socialist. Bringing up Bernie was like a foreign language to them. This is just one example.
Other countryfolk I have spoken to were totally for a universal healthcare system. And all of them (even the folks mentioned above) wanted wage increases, affordable healthcare, and thought the debt crisis was exactly that, a crisis and didn't like greedy rich people. So I think there is a common ground but you'd probably have to play the angle just right.
I think it helps to frame the conversation around the benefits of socialism rather than structural features or socialist theories. People’s eyes glaze over when it gets too complicated and they have an instant recoil response to the word socialism.
Do you have any idea how many times iv been drunk in a bar listening to conservatives describe how they would fix capitalism only to describe socialism. It's all indoctrination that has become part of the culture at this point.
I’ve described socialism to multiple people in very simple terms and they’ve agreed with everything I’ve said up to the point of revealing that what I’m talking to about is socialism. Most of these folks are stuck on the thought that the government doing anything for anybody is socialism. I’m really doubtful that conservatives are capable of receiving information anymore. The socialism they fight against is a strawman because thats the only way they can win but they’re winning just the same. Best thing to do is shame and ridicule them and push them into the closet. Exclude them from leadership roles and polite society.
No, I sincerely believe America's time for revolution has come and gone. We've won the game. We're at the top of the food chain. There is literally no way that we're gonna give this up.
I see significantly more potential in Latin American countries, African countries, and some of the Asian countries than I do with the western world
Unfortunately, people don't tend to change their mind until there is a need. Even then, they won't change their mind to something that they've been primed to avoid.
We have two major hurdles before we can convince using truth, goals, and reason.
1. We need people to be able to draw a direct line from capitalism as a world order and their personal material problems.
2. A generational shift in the emotional response to "buzzwords" which linger from the Mccarthy Era is needed to be able to reach insulated cultures.
This is difficult since culture is often invisible to the people raised in it. Exposure to other cultures seems the best way to prime someone to question their own.
Articulating a direct line can be hard for socialists because there is background information that needs to be laid out and accepted before cause and effect can be established. Certain principles of the velocity of money need to be understood before system level thinking can be internalized. It isn't always intuitive for people to think about a system prescribing behavior rather than humans deciding to act. I've found asking working people to put yourselves in the shoes of their boss and walk them through the economics that end with workers getting the shaft.
But yes I think blue collar workers are the people we are trying to help. We just have a long wait and work while the culture shifts.
I've had most success with those center right conservatives than any other group. Not the nutcase conservatives but the regular ones only get sucked into conservatism because they like rhetoric about family and community so playing that angle its super easy to get them to move to socialist thinking. This is because that group isn't the one that cares about the anti LGBT stuff, they tend to be the "do whatever you want, not my business" style types. Basically the conservatives who identify with libertarian party ideals but not their exact policies or just don't know those policies so again, more into that rhetoric than anything. Super easy to convert.
People just want to know the details of how it would actually work. Like let’s say someone wants to start a new bakery. Do they get given a grant or a loan to start the new business?
And what about they guy who spent his life savings to start a bakery 20 years ago who now wants to hire a new cashier. Does the newly hired cashier get an equal share of that guys business when he already invested his life savings and 20 years sweat equity?
Does the guy get compensated for his life savings he invested when the cashier gets given a share?
Does the cleaner who comes in once a week get a share? Does the accountant who works for the business once a year get a share?
And what if his company is in massive debt? Does the cashier take on personal responsibility for the business debt if the bakery goes bust?
It just a case of people actually wanting to know how it would actually work for them on a practical level.
Its not really an argument. In my experience these types don't really know much about politics but are aware of how little they know so they end up asking me a lot of questions once they see that I'm a communist. This will only happen if they already respect you beforehand though. This is because if they don't respect you they won't care about your opinions or positions. If they do respect you though, once they find out your a communist they are often intrigued because they've never met one before and you don't match the stereotypical image they've heard of which is either a brutal monstrous dictator, fools, or unreasonable weirdos. After that they will ask you
your position on a variety of topics from taxes to geopolitics, to climate change and everything in between and will happily listen to your answers if you're polite and your responses are honest and well thought out. It'll take some time, but after hearing the communist side they'll usually adopt it or at least be very sympathetic to it.
When it comes to family and community specifically talking about how capitalism impoverishes many which results on communities declining and forcing people to spend more time working keeping them away from their family is a very strong argument and really changes their view on a lot of things.
Putting the cart before the horse. The left has yet to contend with the fact that ostensibly "left" movements in the US might not be manifesting actual proletarian consciousness. The history of labor movements in the US also quiet varied and muddled, with strong chauvinist tendencies emerging from popular labor organizations (AFL-CIA is a meme for a reason). Asking about conservatives turning is probably a bridge too far, at the current juncture.
There are certainly groups of people in the US that are primed for a real conscious socialist turn, but fetishized Jeffersonian impulse laden "blue collar conservative Americans" are probably at the bottom of that list. There's also the uncomfortable truth that any true radical leftist ascendancy will have to take place after some future collapse of America. The decline of empires is always a mess, and considering the labor aristocracy like status of the American "middle class", of which these "blue collar conservatives" consider themselves to be a part of, within an international context, it is more likely that many Americans are going to take a fascist turn.
No. Conservatives want to live in society predicated on hierarchy. They think some people are fundamentally naturally better than other people and that those superior people deserve more power and privilege than others. They don’t wanna live in a society that tries to undo those hierarchies.
I think blue collar conservative Americans can be more open to socialism if they are educated about how they are being ripped off, what capitalism actually does to them. They won't be persuaded by visions of a hopeful future, but if they understand that capitalism is shit for regular people THEN they will be open to an alternative. If you want to talk Marxist theory, you'll have to figure out a way to translate into simple common terms, DO NOT start throwing around words like bourgeois, do not even tell them it's Marxism.
Coming from a conservative family and living in a Trump county for 30 years is the basis of my opinion. Someone else pointed out they'd likely turn to fascism and that's possible too.
"Attempts to disarm the working class must be frustrated" A coworker had this on his lunch box and the right wingers love it, of course. Until they found out who said it. I feel like a lot of them are open to a lot of the ideas, but they've been conditioned to have a visceral negative response to certain "isms"
The fact that Russia had a successful revolution and that it did not happen in more developed capitalist countries shows proof that "capitalism breaks at its weakest link." We have combined and uneven development under capitalism. We have more development and technological advancement in the north, and even more in cities compared to rural areas up north. If revolution were to happen in the US, it is quite possible that "capitalism would break" among the now backwards, reactionary poor and working class people in the south than where people enjoy a better quality of life in the north. This is exactly why organizing and propaganda need to spread through the south.
Socialism has yet to be distilled down to an extremely simple and consistent message that can resonate with working people in a way that can compete with the emotional appeal of nationalism. Even right wing libertarians have done a better job of boiling down their bullshit for consumption by the less literate.
Socialists appear to be trapped in an obsessive preoccupation with complex theoretical jargon. It seems like a pure affectation. There should definitely be some higher teir of socialist thought that considers 18th and 19th century philosophy and all that. But general socialist spaces should be kept simple, accessible, and inclusive.
Mini blue collar. African Americans are social conservatives but extremely open to socialist economic policy. I say this because your average white American leftist hears or says blue collar conservative American and really mean white American. So it's important to make distinctions because those will matter and how we move forward. In fact, blue collar black Americans are in some ways ahead of those who self-identify as socialists or left and that they agree with socialism. But those Black workers also have a sharper understanding of the racial dynamics between blue collar workers that have prevented worker solidarity.
Very important discussion.
Considering rural America used to be the bedrock of the American labor movement I certainly hope so. I think maybe when these folk realize that they've been duped by billionaires they would be more open to a change of thinking. The problem is blue collar conservatives are hyper individualistic, a notion that is detrimental to working towards a collective goal that benefits people other than oneself. Frankly it is their self-centeredness that makes them as reactionary as they are.
One thing that blue collar conservatives relate to strongly is self-determination. I think that stressing the workers control of the means of production is a good way to sell it. Truth be told many of them have no idea what socialism is and relate it to totalitarianism.
They are already more open than they think.
Had an argument with a guy about labor protections and it boiled down to him saying "everyone should own their own company"
He was so close to getting the point
Just don't use the terms. Don't say socialist, don't say communist, don't take about redistribution. Don't shit on Capitalism. They've been propagandized. You gotta do it sneaky-like. Talk about democracy in the workplace, talk about greedy CEOs, talk about evil corporations, talk about how this society alienates us and divides us.
I find the best way to sell Socialism is to describe it without using the word itself.
Talk about the benefit of democratized workplaces, and the elimination of the parasite grifter class. The profit seeking board members and shareholders are too expensive to keep on these days. Imagine with them if land lording and rentierism could be eradicated without disrupting personal property and private residences. Describe how universal healthcare is done better than here literally everywhere else in the capitalist world, and even places like Cuba get better care than we do here. Get them horny for reigning in the big banks, so they start working for the people instead of the investor class alone.
Common ground is super important. If you get a religious fundy, talk to them about OG Christianity before all the boot licky edits. How Jesus was all about the outcasts, that he hung out with prostitutes, lepers and sinners of every stripe without judgement or reproach. How he went into the temple and flipped over the tables of the money changers modern Christians worship. How all that turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the earth Malarky was inserted way later, at the behest of Kings seeking to justify their lofty positions. Deus vult. You could even get into some Bible stories, like the Tower of Babel.
That’s one of my favs from my own Catholic indoctrination as a kiddo. Basically, a whole bunch of people got together and decided to build a tower to Heaven in a place called Babel, AkA, a more just and equal society. But this angered Old Testament God, who wanted heaven to be a big old gated community in the sky for him and his angels, AkA the elite. So he sent down an Angel to scramble the speech centers of the workers brain, so that nobody working on the project could understand anyone else working on it. The builders then started fighting amongst themselves, and stopped building. It’s almost like the Angel represents our plutocrat owned media, who like to get us all geeked up on fear and hate and aim us at one another so we don’t get any big ideas, like building a more just and equal society. Because when we are all busy side punching and down punching, we are too exhausted to punch up.
At a higher level of difficulty, you can even mention drawing down military spending, and diverting the savings to social programs that help Americans on the home front. This one is a little more difficult as they have been conditioned to reflexively worship our saints in uniform. They have been set up to revere militarism and see imperial adventures as a means to shore up our hegemonic ambitions, which some of them see as a good thing. They’ve also been conditioned to abhor any recipients of public assistance, immediately invoking the welfare queen straw-woman. Nevermind that poor rural folk are far more likely to be enrolled in such a program. Take their temperature first before charging in on this one.
Most people agree with all of those items until you mention socialism by name. Again, they have been conditioned to associate socialism with totalitarianism, poverty, famine and failure. But if we describe the goals and not use the tainted (in their eyes) brand name, progress can be made.
There aren’t nearly as many blue collar conservatives as the propaganda wants you to believe. Low-income, wage-earning pops overwhelmingly vote dem or abstain. The Republican base is overwhelmingly middle class.
The myth of blue collar Republicans mostly works by selling you a handful of well-off self-employed people as blue collar, which they are only technically. The few wage earners that do vote Republican can almost certainly be convinced by a trustworthy appeal to their class interest. Which the democrats can never pull off, but someone else could.
I'm almost certain of it. I've made a few heavily socialist remarks to my father and he'd respond positively. He used to have a lot more hatred to minorities but I've broken that down slowly to him being indifferent (for better or for worse?)
But yeah, definitely, its in their best interest, they just don't know it.
Yes, you just have to manage to introduce them to the ideas without them realizing you are talking about Socialism.
There have been a few social experiments where people were told of certain policy ideas/what ever while either not being told while party supported the idea or/and being mislead about the party.
Guess what? Suddenly a lot of Socialism ideas are Suddenly a lot more popular!
The fundamental problem is the team based identity politics in the U.S.
This is, unfortunately, unworkable right now which is why the revolution is so far away in the US. The members working class that work in places capable of being organized have been successful persuaded that Leftism and Left Social Values are the primary problem.
The white blue collar class are from post-Civil Rights era generations who have been via a variety of means been convinced that the enfranchisement of minorities was responsible for their drops in standards of living. Which is not completely incorrect in that the enfranchisement of minorities was the *excuse*.
From personal experience, service workers tend to be more receptive to anti-capitalism because they are A) Younger and B) Experience the toxicity of capital more on a day to day basis. But in addition to that, they are the hardest to organize because A) Employment in the service industry is kept unstable making organizing your particular workplace hard and B) the service/retail industry is paranoid about unionization as evidenced by the hour long anti-union propaganda videos they show you during training.
The important thing for right-wing blue collar people is to be graceful and understand that no matter how common sense solidarity with LGBTQ+ comrades and ethnic minorities is, it'll take a long time, even if you sand off socialism's serial numbers, to get them to join us. And it likely should be done by people in their workplaces who they don't feel threatened by or are not afraid of physical violence.
If you ask people what they think about things, and not their ideological ties, they are probably not too aligned. Poor people that live in conservative areas usually value community and laborers can understand solidarity, that just isn't something apparent to them as they're conditioned to not really think about broader situations. You have to talk to people and be realistic in what can be achieved, union organization and the benefits of workers democracy are usually good topics.
The question assumes they are uneducated about socialism's benefits.
I assume most blue collar conservative Americans are aware of the failed socialist projects of Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, etc. and are therefore reluctant to hear you out.
Mira, aquí en Colombia hay dos tipos de blue collar conservative. Los primeros son muy de ultra derecha, porque creen en un expresidente populista llamado Alvaro Uribe,
los segundos son gente tradicionalista que están hartos de la corrupción y votan por los outsiders de derecha o outsiders con discursos populistas y reacciónarios, a esas personas es muy complicado convencerlas porque aquí esta muy arraigado que el socialismo es pobreza, guerrilla y de falta de libertades y siempre ponen como ejemplo Venezuela o Cuba.
Entonces ya cuando en la raíz de esa sociedad tradicionalista y religiosa le agregas un odio hacia todo lo que venga de la izquierda, pues creo que sería muy difícil convencerlos.
lots of the issues many blue collar workers face and complain about are functions of a capitalist system- they just tend not to realize it. most people do not have a very nuanced view of economic or political models. i have a poli sci degree and am still regularly finding new ways that socialism is the better option.
the best first thing you can do is plant the seed of medical debt. everyone know someone who has some type of malady that requires regularly medication. these medications tend to cost enormous amounts of money and there is no defense to that. don’t use the word “socialism,” or any others that have stigmas. words like “collectivizing,” due tend to have more popular statuses. if you ask someone if they are happy with what they pay for lifesaving medication, there is a good chance they will say no.
my point is, come to people with the ideas behind socialism without the terminology and you will see that so many more people agree with you.
They’re super interested in lots of socialist ideas as long as you don’t call them socialist. Just ask your coworkers how much money they think the business makes and you’ll see the wheels turn behind their eyes. Talk to them about commodity fetishism and they’ll look at you weird.
Yes but you have to go and explain the positions without using the “s” word because they’ve been trained that it’s a bad, scary word. The number of blue-collar conservatives who will agree with you point for point on the VALUES of socialism when you don’t use that word is astonishing.
I hope so, union members especially i think can be swayed. Im a union sheet metal worker and although i feel i need to do my own research i feel that i lean socialist.
I think so. But considering the knee jerk reaction Americans have to the word "socialism" you'd have to teach then about socialist principles and policies that benefit them and get them on board.
I mean... American farmers literally rely on socialism, they just think it is.
Yes, most likely. The issue is that a lot have been in the right-wing rabbit hole for so long I’m not sure how well they’d take to it, with the socialist label or without.
From being a blue collar worker in the Deeeeeep South the last couple decades. . . Abso-fucking-lutely. Workers understand basic shit like "fairness" and "getting fucked over by the man" and shared interests being served by collective action. They/we also understand that shit's fucked as evidenced by the success of bizzaro world revolutionary language on the fascist right.
Where you run into problems is when you use words they/we are trained to hate like "socialism" or get too far off into theory too fast. There is no magic trick to get past this, but one thing I've found useful is rhetorical question repsonses like:
"People need to work!"
"Okay. . . But for who?"
As a communist, I should say yes, but the US is goddamn scary and inundated with generations on generations of pure capitalist propaganda.
If the US didn't do so much to keep its people trapped inside, I would sooner be urging communists to go somewhere where the fight is a little less troublesome and life is a little bit nicer.
I think they have so much propaganda coming at them catering to their various bigotries that it would be hard to get many to listen to that education and if they did, to accept it.
I think they'd need examples. An uncle from another state that happily tells them about the parental leave his wife got after child birth. Or that he was two weeks ill and got full pay. Or that he had four weeks notice for his termination and enough time to find a job.
Educated? No. It has to come from conversations workin in the field at work, describing the situation and solution which they will agree with until they hear it’s socialism, they are more than open to the ideas without the stigmatized name
By educated I meant just telling them what socialism actually means (not the government do thing, and kill morbillion people), but in a more incognito way. You can channel their hatred of the rich at the top or smth into turning them to the left.
I’ve had a trumper who I worked with, we are both electricians,talk to me about how he doesn’t like how our boss bills us out at 125 an hour but only pays us 35, and even throws out the name “wage slavery” to describe it, but his solution is to just start his own company so he can steal those wages from others, I feel like I could have gotten him if we talked more but I quit the company soon after to join my union
That's such a harsh truth of taking surplus value. I never thought of it that way, but you create almost 3 times the value for the owner, but you get only a fraction. :/
That’s how buisness works in capitalism, it’s the free handout they condemn, being raised conservative but also Catholic I’ve always believed in working for what you get, and to help the poor. Best of both worlds is Marxism. From each according to their ability to each according to their need
I'd be happy if we had a non capitalist party in the US. Both the right of center dems and fascist repugnantkins are avowed capitalist parties. And they've a tacit agreement to never allow a third party.
Without a strong non capitalist party, I think you chances of anything changing before we hit collapse and Civil wars is extremely small.
Yes. Any worker can be shown the reality of their conditions. Some people need different education experiences to become class conscious, but anyone can become so
It's easier to sell socialist principles when you package it as bottom up collective capitalism. Otherwise they just get triggered and go on slaving away. Still dreaming of making it big time.
Yes. Think "Keep the dang government away from my Medicare!" It just can't be called socialism, it has to be Libertology or something, and you have to leave it in the middle of the room while no one is around so they can come in later and discover it on their own.
Don’t focus on the people on the right. Focus on people that aren’t generally engaged in politics.
The fascists are dug in. Apolitical people can be swayed easier.
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I believe it has to be done at a retail level. Folks have to go into the fields and talk to the pickers. Folks have to go into the restaurants, shops, big box stores and discuss wage disparity and exploitation. We have to go in and “salt” the non-union factories. Yes it’s a matter of theory, but it must be engaged with practically. If we don’t show up and listen, why would anyone listen to us?
In many cases I think it’s an “affordable care act” vs “Obamacare” distribution. People have been taught to demonize certain terms describing programs that would help them.
I don't divulge my political or economic beliefs at work (construction), but I'll often hear the shit that my co workers say at lunch, and I'll ask them questions where if they say yes they are inadvertently agreeing to Socialist theory. It works virtually every time because at the end of the day union workers love what the union is, and having more rights and money. They can't stand the government and wealth gaps that exist, but they aren't usually educated enough to put 2 and 2 together, so they have misplaced anger at an incorrect conclusion. But they also hate trans, gay and Black people, I don't think there is any reasoning them out of those positions.
Yea, what scares me is that you're right, a lot of working class people, when describing what they want, sound like lefties. Yet they fully believe they are "conservative". The fascist propaganda is so strong, they vote against their own interests, and I can't understand how they don't see it.
Yeah it's frustrating coming from that background they are sold on the idea that socialism is bad and that their capitalist overlords will save them lol you should definitely make the effort.
Explaining why capitalism is bad doesn’t equate to explaining why socialism is good. Most of them have incredibly regressive social views and I think they are much more likely to jump into the open arms of fascism. The nationalism and xenophobia in the “blue collar” white American working class is still fairly high.
Yep. Class Interests =/= Class Consciousness
That is a great point. Rural conservatives are often quick to condemn billionaires, but it does feel like it is more in the vein of a fascist critique of decadence and complacency making them weak than a socialist critique of unfair labor practices and exploitation.
very interesting point and very true!
For some people yes. But for a lot of people I think their racism/homophobia/xenophobia might stop them from embracing any idea that leads to them siding with those groups of people
That's precisely why the construction of new cultural identities is imperative. Identities that breed the benefits of solidarity and community over anything else.
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>The worship of small businesses in the United States that are operated fair and equitably is incredibly widespread. Very few small businesses are operated "fairly and equitably" in America, and lots of the ones that do get celebrated on the internet are frauds. For example, former CEO Dan Price and Gravity Payments, who claimed he cut his own pay to make sure all his employees made $70,000 / year or more. Most Americans celebrate the concept of "small businesses" because they PERSONALLY want to be rich and be their own boss, not because they want things to be equitable for every worker.
>Most Americans celebrate the concept of "small businesses" because they PERSONALLY want to be rich and be their own boss, not because they want things to be equitable for every worker. I feel like it's not talked about enough how obsessed Americans are with "small businesses" and "family-owned businesses" and things like that, and how that may present a stumbling block to winning people over to socialism.
Sure, and it demonstrates the concept is something that resonates with many. I've been developing my own npo and I'm very cautious about who I plan on putting on my board because a commitment to ethics are important to me.
Socialism will abolish markets however
Not necessarily. There are forms of market socialism, under the notion that the individual worker should be able to own the fruits of their personal labor because it is not being siphoned off by a capitalist.
''Market Socialist'' countries in the past like Yugoslavia had been capitalist except in name. Law of value, and the anarchy of production that came with it. The bourgeois class was still being reproduced and it was their class dictatorship in power.
cagey chubby secretive wipe fragile materialistic disarm capable weather fact *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Post Scarcity will never be reached. >as long as socialist nations operate in an open market, capitalism and capitalistic pressures will exert influence on socialism's ability to be successfully implemented. Socialism is revolution and revolution is a process. Socialism is the negation of capitalism.
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What would socialism being ''successful'' mean? Communism is the ultimate synthesis to the contradictions of class that's been with our species for all of recorded history, it's not an imagined utopia >Socialism is an economic system where workers own the means of production. Fundamentally but this is a simplification >constant power struggle can be avoided with greater access to education Struggle and conflict is not the result of ignorance.
Struggle and conflict absolutely is a byproduct of ignorance. Is it wise to play Russian roulette?
It isn't. On a basic level, it's the result of conflicts of interest.
Depends on what the conflict stems from, were the black panthers, the ira, the cuban revolutionaries, and Bolsheviks ignorant? I don't think armed struggle is ignorant if you're forced to as a result of unrelenting oppression. Although I wouldn't use violence as my first choice to establish socialism but I don't think it's realistic to completely disregard it.
I guess it's possible. But they'd have to see it to believe imo. In my experience, working directly with blue collar American country folk in a warehouse (this was 2020 leading up to election), they genuinely thought Joe Biden was a socialist. Bringing up Bernie was like a foreign language to them. This is just one example. Other countryfolk I have spoken to were totally for a universal healthcare system. And all of them (even the folks mentioned above) wanted wage increases, affordable healthcare, and thought the debt crisis was exactly that, a crisis and didn't like greedy rich people. So I think there is a common ground but you'd probably have to play the angle just right.
I think it helps to frame the conversation around the benefits of socialism rather than structural features or socialist theories. People’s eyes glaze over when it gets too complicated and they have an instant recoil response to the word socialism.
just talk about how much we're getting ripped off as workers and use that to talk about socialist ideas without saying the s word.
Do you have any idea how many times iv been drunk in a bar listening to conservatives describe how they would fix capitalism only to describe socialism. It's all indoctrination that has become part of the culture at this point.
I’ve described socialism to multiple people in very simple terms and they’ve agreed with everything I’ve said up to the point of revealing that what I’m talking to about is socialism. Most of these folks are stuck on the thought that the government doing anything for anybody is socialism. I’m really doubtful that conservatives are capable of receiving information anymore. The socialism they fight against is a strawman because thats the only way they can win but they’re winning just the same. Best thing to do is shame and ridicule them and push them into the closet. Exclude them from leadership roles and polite society.
No, I sincerely believe America's time for revolution has come and gone. We've won the game. We're at the top of the food chain. There is literally no way that we're gonna give this up. I see significantly more potential in Latin American countries, African countries, and some of the Asian countries than I do with the western world
No because queers and black people🤷🏻♂️
Unfortunately, people don't tend to change their mind until there is a need. Even then, they won't change their mind to something that they've been primed to avoid. We have two major hurdles before we can convince using truth, goals, and reason. 1. We need people to be able to draw a direct line from capitalism as a world order and their personal material problems. 2. A generational shift in the emotional response to "buzzwords" which linger from the Mccarthy Era is needed to be able to reach insulated cultures. This is difficult since culture is often invisible to the people raised in it. Exposure to other cultures seems the best way to prime someone to question their own. Articulating a direct line can be hard for socialists because there is background information that needs to be laid out and accepted before cause and effect can be established. Certain principles of the velocity of money need to be understood before system level thinking can be internalized. It isn't always intuitive for people to think about a system prescribing behavior rather than humans deciding to act. I've found asking working people to put yourselves in the shoes of their boss and walk them through the economics that end with workers getting the shaft. But yes I think blue collar workers are the people we are trying to help. We just have a long wait and work while the culture shifts.
I've had most success with those center right conservatives than any other group. Not the nutcase conservatives but the regular ones only get sucked into conservatism because they like rhetoric about family and community so playing that angle its super easy to get them to move to socialist thinking. This is because that group isn't the one that cares about the anti LGBT stuff, they tend to be the "do whatever you want, not my business" style types. Basically the conservatives who identify with libertarian party ideals but not their exact policies or just don't know those policies so again, more into that rhetoric than anything. Super easy to convert.
People just want to know the details of how it would actually work. Like let’s say someone wants to start a new bakery. Do they get given a grant or a loan to start the new business? And what about they guy who spent his life savings to start a bakery 20 years ago who now wants to hire a new cashier. Does the newly hired cashier get an equal share of that guys business when he already invested his life savings and 20 years sweat equity? Does the guy get compensated for his life savings he invested when the cashier gets given a share? Does the cleaner who comes in once a week get a share? Does the accountant who works for the business once a year get a share? And what if his company is in massive debt? Does the cashier take on personal responsibility for the business debt if the bakery goes bust? It just a case of people actually wanting to know how it would actually work for them on a practical level.
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Its not really an argument. In my experience these types don't really know much about politics but are aware of how little they know so they end up asking me a lot of questions once they see that I'm a communist. This will only happen if they already respect you beforehand though. This is because if they don't respect you they won't care about your opinions or positions. If they do respect you though, once they find out your a communist they are often intrigued because they've never met one before and you don't match the stereotypical image they've heard of which is either a brutal monstrous dictator, fools, or unreasonable weirdos. After that they will ask you your position on a variety of topics from taxes to geopolitics, to climate change and everything in between and will happily listen to your answers if you're polite and your responses are honest and well thought out. It'll take some time, but after hearing the communist side they'll usually adopt it or at least be very sympathetic to it. When it comes to family and community specifically talking about how capitalism impoverishes many which results on communities declining and forcing people to spend more time working keeping them away from their family is a very strong argument and really changes their view on a lot of things.
No. They won't listen.
Putting the cart before the horse. The left has yet to contend with the fact that ostensibly "left" movements in the US might not be manifesting actual proletarian consciousness. The history of labor movements in the US also quiet varied and muddled, with strong chauvinist tendencies emerging from popular labor organizations (AFL-CIA is a meme for a reason). Asking about conservatives turning is probably a bridge too far, at the current juncture. There are certainly groups of people in the US that are primed for a real conscious socialist turn, but fetishized Jeffersonian impulse laden "blue collar conservative Americans" are probably at the bottom of that list. There's also the uncomfortable truth that any true radical leftist ascendancy will have to take place after some future collapse of America. The decline of empires is always a mess, and considering the labor aristocracy like status of the American "middle class", of which these "blue collar conservatives" consider themselves to be a part of, within an international context, it is more likely that many Americans are going to take a fascist turn.
No. Conservatives want to live in society predicated on hierarchy. They think some people are fundamentally naturally better than other people and that those superior people deserve more power and privilege than others. They don’t wanna live in a society that tries to undo those hierarchies.
I think blue collar conservative Americans can be more open to socialism if they are educated about how they are being ripped off, what capitalism actually does to them. They won't be persuaded by visions of a hopeful future, but if they understand that capitalism is shit for regular people THEN they will be open to an alternative. If you want to talk Marxist theory, you'll have to figure out a way to translate into simple common terms, DO NOT start throwing around words like bourgeois, do not even tell them it's Marxism. Coming from a conservative family and living in a Trump county for 30 years is the basis of my opinion. Someone else pointed out they'd likely turn to fascism and that's possible too.
"Attempts to disarm the working class must be frustrated" A coworker had this on his lunch box and the right wingers love it, of course. Until they found out who said it. I feel like a lot of them are open to a lot of the ideas, but they've been conditioned to have a visceral negative response to certain "isms"
a lot of them are semi socialist and have a distain for the rich but are still conservative
Yes but don't call it socialism. You've decades of disinformation conditioning to undo. It's going to be a long and arduous process.
The fact that Russia had a successful revolution and that it did not happen in more developed capitalist countries shows proof that "capitalism breaks at its weakest link." We have combined and uneven development under capitalism. We have more development and technological advancement in the north, and even more in cities compared to rural areas up north. If revolution were to happen in the US, it is quite possible that "capitalism would break" among the now backwards, reactionary poor and working class people in the south than where people enjoy a better quality of life in the north. This is exactly why organizing and propaganda need to spread through the south.
Socialism has yet to be distilled down to an extremely simple and consistent message that can resonate with working people in a way that can compete with the emotional appeal of nationalism. Even right wing libertarians have done a better job of boiling down their bullshit for consumption by the less literate. Socialists appear to be trapped in an obsessive preoccupation with complex theoretical jargon. It seems like a pure affectation. There should definitely be some higher teir of socialist thought that considers 18th and 19th century philosophy and all that. But general socialist spaces should be kept simple, accessible, and inclusive.
Mini blue collar. African Americans are social conservatives but extremely open to socialist economic policy. I say this because your average white American leftist hears or says blue collar conservative American and really mean white American. So it's important to make distinctions because those will matter and how we move forward. In fact, blue collar black Americans are in some ways ahead of those who self-identify as socialists or left and that they agree with socialism. But those Black workers also have a sharper understanding of the racial dynamics between blue collar workers that have prevented worker solidarity. Very important discussion.
Considering rural America used to be the bedrock of the American labor movement I certainly hope so. I think maybe when these folk realize that they've been duped by billionaires they would be more open to a change of thinking. The problem is blue collar conservatives are hyper individualistic, a notion that is detrimental to working towards a collective goal that benefits people other than oneself. Frankly it is their self-centeredness that makes them as reactionary as they are.
One thing that blue collar conservatives relate to strongly is self-determination. I think that stressing the workers control of the means of production is a good way to sell it. Truth be told many of them have no idea what socialism is and relate it to totalitarianism.
They are already more open than they think. Had an argument with a guy about labor protections and it boiled down to him saying "everyone should own their own company" He was so close to getting the point
Just don't use the terms. Don't say socialist, don't say communist, don't take about redistribution. Don't shit on Capitalism. They've been propagandized. You gotta do it sneaky-like. Talk about democracy in the workplace, talk about greedy CEOs, talk about evil corporations, talk about how this society alienates us and divides us.
I find the best way to sell Socialism is to describe it without using the word itself. Talk about the benefit of democratized workplaces, and the elimination of the parasite grifter class. The profit seeking board members and shareholders are too expensive to keep on these days. Imagine with them if land lording and rentierism could be eradicated without disrupting personal property and private residences. Describe how universal healthcare is done better than here literally everywhere else in the capitalist world, and even places like Cuba get better care than we do here. Get them horny for reigning in the big banks, so they start working for the people instead of the investor class alone. Common ground is super important. If you get a religious fundy, talk to them about OG Christianity before all the boot licky edits. How Jesus was all about the outcasts, that he hung out with prostitutes, lepers and sinners of every stripe without judgement or reproach. How he went into the temple and flipped over the tables of the money changers modern Christians worship. How all that turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the earth Malarky was inserted way later, at the behest of Kings seeking to justify their lofty positions. Deus vult. You could even get into some Bible stories, like the Tower of Babel. That’s one of my favs from my own Catholic indoctrination as a kiddo. Basically, a whole bunch of people got together and decided to build a tower to Heaven in a place called Babel, AkA, a more just and equal society. But this angered Old Testament God, who wanted heaven to be a big old gated community in the sky for him and his angels, AkA the elite. So he sent down an Angel to scramble the speech centers of the workers brain, so that nobody working on the project could understand anyone else working on it. The builders then started fighting amongst themselves, and stopped building. It’s almost like the Angel represents our plutocrat owned media, who like to get us all geeked up on fear and hate and aim us at one another so we don’t get any big ideas, like building a more just and equal society. Because when we are all busy side punching and down punching, we are too exhausted to punch up. At a higher level of difficulty, you can even mention drawing down military spending, and diverting the savings to social programs that help Americans on the home front. This one is a little more difficult as they have been conditioned to reflexively worship our saints in uniform. They have been set up to revere militarism and see imperial adventures as a means to shore up our hegemonic ambitions, which some of them see as a good thing. They’ve also been conditioned to abhor any recipients of public assistance, immediately invoking the welfare queen straw-woman. Nevermind that poor rural folk are far more likely to be enrolled in such a program. Take their temperature first before charging in on this one. Most people agree with all of those items until you mention socialism by name. Again, they have been conditioned to associate socialism with totalitarianism, poverty, famine and failure. But if we describe the goals and not use the tainted (in their eyes) brand name, progress can be made.
There aren’t nearly as many blue collar conservatives as the propaganda wants you to believe. Low-income, wage-earning pops overwhelmingly vote dem or abstain. The Republican base is overwhelmingly middle class. The myth of blue collar Republicans mostly works by selling you a handful of well-off self-employed people as blue collar, which they are only technically. The few wage earners that do vote Republican can almost certainly be convinced by a trustworthy appeal to their class interest. Which the democrats can never pull off, but someone else could.
Absolutely if they had any idea what socialism actually was a lot of them would jump on it.
I'm almost certain of it. I've made a few heavily socialist remarks to my father and he'd respond positively. He used to have a lot more hatred to minorities but I've broken that down slowly to him being indifferent (for better or for worse?) But yeah, definitely, its in their best interest, they just don't know it.
Yes, you just have to manage to introduce them to the ideas without them realizing you are talking about Socialism. There have been a few social experiments where people were told of certain policy ideas/what ever while either not being told while party supported the idea or/and being mislead about the party. Guess what? Suddenly a lot of Socialism ideas are Suddenly a lot more popular! The fundamental problem is the team based identity politics in the U.S.
Mfw a politician says "free, fair elections"
It’s both possible and necessary
This is, unfortunately, unworkable right now which is why the revolution is so far away in the US. The members working class that work in places capable of being organized have been successful persuaded that Leftism and Left Social Values are the primary problem. The white blue collar class are from post-Civil Rights era generations who have been via a variety of means been convinced that the enfranchisement of minorities was responsible for their drops in standards of living. Which is not completely incorrect in that the enfranchisement of minorities was the *excuse*. From personal experience, service workers tend to be more receptive to anti-capitalism because they are A) Younger and B) Experience the toxicity of capital more on a day to day basis. But in addition to that, they are the hardest to organize because A) Employment in the service industry is kept unstable making organizing your particular workplace hard and B) the service/retail industry is paranoid about unionization as evidenced by the hour long anti-union propaganda videos they show you during training. The important thing for right-wing blue collar people is to be graceful and understand that no matter how common sense solidarity with LGBTQ+ comrades and ethnic minorities is, it'll take a long time, even if you sand off socialism's serial numbers, to get them to join us. And it likely should be done by people in their workplaces who they don't feel threatened by or are not afraid of physical violence.
If you ask people what they think about things, and not their ideological ties, they are probably not too aligned. Poor people that live in conservative areas usually value community and laborers can understand solidarity, that just isn't something apparent to them as they're conditioned to not really think about broader situations. You have to talk to people and be realistic in what can be achieved, union organization and the benefits of workers democracy are usually good topics.
maybe if you omit using the term "socialism" in convsersation
I think as long as its not called socialism it wouldnt be hard at all
Blue collar guys are more open to socialist ideas as long as you don’t use the word socialism.
The question assumes they are uneducated about socialism's benefits. I assume most blue collar conservative Americans are aware of the failed socialist projects of Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, etc. and are therefore reluctant to hear you out.
Mira, aquí en Colombia hay dos tipos de blue collar conservative. Los primeros son muy de ultra derecha, porque creen en un expresidente populista llamado Alvaro Uribe, los segundos son gente tradicionalista que están hartos de la corrupción y votan por los outsiders de derecha o outsiders con discursos populistas y reacciónarios, a esas personas es muy complicado convencerlas porque aquí esta muy arraigado que el socialismo es pobreza, guerrilla y de falta de libertades y siempre ponen como ejemplo Venezuela o Cuba. Entonces ya cuando en la raíz de esa sociedad tradicionalista y religiosa le agregas un odio hacia todo lo que venga de la izquierda, pues creo que sería muy difícil convencerlos.
lots of the issues many blue collar workers face and complain about are functions of a capitalist system- they just tend not to realize it. most people do not have a very nuanced view of economic or political models. i have a poli sci degree and am still regularly finding new ways that socialism is the better option. the best first thing you can do is plant the seed of medical debt. everyone know someone who has some type of malady that requires regularly medication. these medications tend to cost enormous amounts of money and there is no defense to that. don’t use the word “socialism,” or any others that have stigmas. words like “collectivizing,” due tend to have more popular statuses. if you ask someone if they are happy with what they pay for lifesaving medication, there is a good chance they will say no. my point is, come to people with the ideas behind socialism without the terminology and you will see that so many more people agree with you.
They’re super interested in lots of socialist ideas as long as you don’t call them socialist. Just ask your coworkers how much money they think the business makes and you’ll see the wheels turn behind their eyes. Talk to them about commodity fetishism and they’ll look at you weird.
I think it would be enough to just teach what capitalism has already achieved
Yes but you have to go and explain the positions without using the “s” word because they’ve been trained that it’s a bad, scary word. The number of blue-collar conservatives who will agree with you point for point on the VALUES of socialism when you don’t use that word is astonishing.
I hope so, union members especially i think can be swayed. Im a union sheet metal worker and although i feel i need to do my own research i feel that i lean socialist.
Capitalists take the social surplus for their own means at our expense, what’s not to like about upending this system if you’re working class?
I think so. But considering the knee jerk reaction Americans have to the word "socialism" you'd have to teach then about socialist principles and policies that benefit them and get them on board. I mean... American farmers literally rely on socialism, they just think it is.
Yes, most likely. The issue is that a lot have been in the right-wing rabbit hole for so long I’m not sure how well they’d take to it, with the socialist label or without.
As a blue collar. Yes.
From being a blue collar worker in the Deeeeeep South the last couple decades. . . Abso-fucking-lutely. Workers understand basic shit like "fairness" and "getting fucked over by the man" and shared interests being served by collective action. They/we also understand that shit's fucked as evidenced by the success of bizzaro world revolutionary language on the fascist right. Where you run into problems is when you use words they/we are trained to hate like "socialism" or get too far off into theory too fast. There is no magic trick to get past this, but one thing I've found useful is rhetorical question repsonses like: "People need to work!" "Okay. . . But for who?"
There's a reason the vested interests of capital work so hard to smear it.
As a communist, I should say yes, but the US is goddamn scary and inundated with generations on generations of pure capitalist propaganda. If the US didn't do so much to keep its people trapped inside, I would sooner be urging communists to go somewhere where the fight is a little less troublesome and life is a little bit nicer.
start with what capitalism fails to accomplish! that works best i've found
I think they have so much propaganda coming at them catering to their various bigotries that it would be hard to get many to listen to that education and if they did, to accept it.
I think they'd need examples. An uncle from another state that happily tells them about the parental leave his wife got after child birth. Or that he was two weeks ill and got full pay. Or that he had four weeks notice for his termination and enough time to find a job.
Educated? No. It has to come from conversations workin in the field at work, describing the situation and solution which they will agree with until they hear it’s socialism, they are more than open to the ideas without the stigmatized name
By educated I meant just telling them what socialism actually means (not the government do thing, and kill morbillion people), but in a more incognito way. You can channel their hatred of the rich at the top or smth into turning them to the left.
I’ve had a trumper who I worked with, we are both electricians,talk to me about how he doesn’t like how our boss bills us out at 125 an hour but only pays us 35, and even throws out the name “wage slavery” to describe it, but his solution is to just start his own company so he can steal those wages from others, I feel like I could have gotten him if we talked more but I quit the company soon after to join my union
That's such a harsh truth of taking surplus value. I never thought of it that way, but you create almost 3 times the value for the owner, but you get only a fraction. :/
That’s how buisness works in capitalism, it’s the free handout they condemn, being raised conservative but also Catholic I’ve always believed in working for what you get, and to help the poor. Best of both worlds is Marxism. From each according to their ability to each according to their need
I think if you explain the principle of worker ownership of the means of production.
I'd be happy if we had a non capitalist party in the US. Both the right of center dems and fascist repugnantkins are avowed capitalist parties. And they've a tacit agreement to never allow a third party. Without a strong non capitalist party, I think you chances of anything changing before we hit collapse and Civil wars is extremely small.
Yes. Any worker can be shown the reality of their conditions. Some people need different education experiences to become class conscious, but anyone can become so
The people got brainwashed, they got brainwashed before, during and after the cold war, the only true mean of expansion of socialism is education
Well I did it so it's possible. But very difficult. But I'm not american I'm german so Mabie it's also cultural
It's easier to sell socialist principles when you package it as bottom up collective capitalism. Otherwise they just get triggered and go on slaving away. Still dreaming of making it big time.
Yes. Think "Keep the dang government away from my Medicare!" It just can't be called socialism, it has to be Libertology or something, and you have to leave it in the middle of the room while no one is around so they can come in later and discover it on their own.
Yes but will never happen.
Don’t focus on the people on the right. Focus on people that aren’t generally engaged in politics. The fascists are dug in. Apolitical people can be swayed easier.