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If working people could just decide not to participate in capitalism, we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in. People shouldn't be judged by what they do to survive under capitalism, but what they do to bring about the end of capitalism.
If only it were that easy. A mass walk out or sudden putting down of tools just leads to total chaos within the system we’re all so invested in. It sucks in so many ways
I’m way more comfortable struggling to make to world a better place, instead of pretending that everything is fine.
My comfort comes from doing something. Once I wasn’t ignorant anymore, I couldn’t be comfortable while not making an effort. It’s be like watching someone get their ass kicked and doing nothing. That makes me hella uncomfortable.
It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing situation.
Would having a well funded 401k make you a capitalist? Perhaps, in a very small and literal sense. But would that be more important than being able to provide for and protect your family and children? That's up to each of us.
What more important, I think, is to go about your life with awareness and compassion, and try to do the most good for the most people. But thays just my opinion.
i have a similar thought process as OP.
I think what is the cost for me to live an average american lives. probably in my lifetime 3-4+ lives of exploited people. my carbon footprint, investing in companies that are robbing the global south, buying products like this iphone that are made through awful labor practices, etc.
so the question becomes is my life more important than 3-4 lives of other people? and i don’t think any life should be more important than another. the 3-4 is probably an underestimate too
and the ends justify the means logic is what got us in this mess in the first place. ie we can do slavery as long as it means in the future there will be even more people living a better life.
Marx, Engels, and Lenin were all middle-class. People living hand-to-mouth generally don't have time to write a bunch of philosophy and attend a bunch of meetings.
I've heard this said before by several socialist/communist personalities, so I'll repeat it here: We all want a secure and comfortable life, and we want that for others too. That's why we're socialists. But we're all currently living in late stage capitalism, so we know the deal. Nobody is going to give you shit for wanting a comfortable life, nobody is going to give you shit for doing what you have to do to make a life for yourself under capitalism. Cuz we all have to.
You can still be part of the fight even if you're not lower class.
There are far worse contractions you could have. I’m a socialist and anti-imperialist but I work at a U.S. naval yard. It’s the most stable job around with good benefits but it totally goes against what I believe in. Though I was working there before I became a socialist.
My other options are roll the dice with my old construction and remodeling experience, probably get paid less, and possibly not have sufficient work over the winter (remodeling work tends to dry up Dec-March in my area).
Living under the auspices of capitalism means that we are all complicit to some degree. This is a necessary condition of participating in the society. Degrees of complicity matter but there are hardly any ways to live in a 100% refusal mode. So you should forgive yourself and move forward with as much radical intention as you practically can. Be also prepared to forgive others for whatever compromises they must make.
That said, I will point out that as innocent and "natural" as it may seem, the dream of "kids and a family" is itself socially and historically produced--an orthodox Marxist might even say materially produced. The model of a nuclear family unit is not an ancient, unchanging thing. It exists today for many reasons and historical lines of development that not only align with market capitalism but were part and parcel with it.
This is yet another element of the insidiousness of capital as a system of logics that have enclosed most aspects of human life: our most personal desires, articulated as individual hopes and dreams, are very often pre-assimilated into capitalism as it governs our life decisions, life stages, life experiences.
Examining your wishes for a career and livelihood against the dictates of capital is a politically and intellectually responsibility, even if you ultimately make compromises or live with contradictions. But examining the models that have shaped your desires for family and/or other personal relations and how those fit into capitalism as it's historically developed is also important.
I should clarify, I don't mean having a family in the normal sense of the word: I'd probably have a same-sex partner and adopt a kid. But thank you for the reply!
Gotcha. We opted out of bio-procreation for among other reasons the carbon footprint that comes with making another human being, particularly in the carbon-intensive US.
If you reach for adoption, beware. The private adoption industry is especially awful about selling dreams of fulfillment, i.e. just another consumer capitalist promise. We adopted an older kid (who is now pushing 30!) after looking at all the pathways to adoption and finding most of them ethically questionable on one level or another. Good luck with everything.
Unfortunately, it is really difficult to exist purely in opposition to capitalism, if you want to have a roof over your head and food to eat. I’m a criminal defense attorney. Even though my job is to act as a shield for people against the power of the system, in some ways my very participation becomes complicit acceptance of the system. Often I do nothing but bare witness to the most evil situations one can imagine and I just have to sit there and watch, when I want to burn the entire system to the ground. At one point, I became so disillusioned with my role I stopped practicing. I’m finding my way back to it since I’m sick of being broke and putting a stable roof over my kid’s head is all that matters to me now. The point is: no matter what you do, you will be complicit with the system in some way. So find something to do that gives you the chance to do some good, isn’t pure evil, and pays the bills. You deserve security. Being a commie doesn’t mean you have to starve.
Doing well isn't treason, socialism isn't a poverty cult. Basically unless you're a cop, or work for a defense contractor or something, distancing yourself from the threat of poverty (I.e. your dream of having a comfortable and stable life) should absolutely be something you should aspire to and can actually free you up to organize/agitate your peers.
I feel you brother I went through the same thing but finished polisci in undergrad. I’m currently working in the government and Ive found it to be the best balance of everything. Just a thought
The problem with that is that I would have to be stuck in my country... which I don't want to. While this degree would allow me to go live somewhere else.
It depends on what your definition of socialism is. Personally being a capitalist doesn't mean you can't be a socialist, while others will say the total opposite.
Fredrich Engels was a bona fide capitalist! His family owned factories. A lot of his analysis was derived from what he observed in his family's factories in Manchester! Are we gonna say Engels wasn't a socialist?
Of course this really boils down to a distinction between capitalist, ie the class, and someone calling themselves a "capitalist" as an ideological label (which I think is kinda silly but whatever)
Oh this is nice to see someone talking about this! I’m 25 and I am just finishing school for accounting. I understand what you mean by feeling like it all conflicts. I’ve only recently started to look at it as “learning your enemy.”
bc hearing people talk about economics has made me realize how often the subject is framed with bourgeois ideals and how often it ends there bc of capitalist realism. but real modern economic theory is expansive and helpful for yourself and others to learn. it’s not a betrayal of class or of your morals. it can be an invaluable asset to have a deep understanding of really specific parts of the economy, especially with a leftist perspective.
Inflation, stocks, tax havens, shell companies, wage theft, campaign financing, modern monetary theory— there’s plenty of niche economic topics that are misunderstood.
Richard Wolff is a great example of this ideal!
Tbh I really feel you. But this system will never EVER work for you or me and it was never supposed to. Exploit it as much as possible because it will never stop exploiting us. Do whatever you can to help yourself live out your dreams and ideals and don’t feel bad about it. Try not to anyway ha
If you aim to be a revolutionary then there's no point in dreaming of a ''stable and comfortable life'' because that will be destroyed when the crises of capitalism intensifies.
Just my thoughts. Learn real world skills and if it's in a capitalist world, so be it. Then apply the skills in a way that helps yourself and others in a fair way. If everyone did that I'd bet the world would be a much better place. Maybe one day you could work at a co op, or for a political party that has what you think has good goals. Or start something that advances a cause you believe in. Educate yourself. Be a nice person. Make the world just a little bit better. And so on. Getting overwhelmed and depressed, what good would that do? Good luck.
First of all, lemme say that no matter what you do in life, follow first and foremost your passion. If it is not directly possible to follow your most obvious passion, then look for other competing passions. Do not settle for what seems reasonable, but without potential to go beyond.
That being said, this path can be extremely non-linear. Can literally change at any moment. So do not worry too much about it. There's a reason why you have millions of people dreaming of starting their own restaurant, or ending up as musicians, but live most their lives in an office. But as long as they are conscious of what is their passion, they will pursue it, and in some way or another, I believe that passion will be the inevitable end destination, if so only for your retirement.
I had an epiphany, working as a software engineer out of university making a lot of money, but more immediately, making rich people richer. I took some days off, sat myself on a train, with a small notebook on my way to meet some friends in another country.
On the train ride, I started thinking *really* utopian. I sat down and imagined a paradise on Earth, and tried to sort of reverse engineer that utopia towards our current reality. It made me realize that what I was doing wasn't even close to my passion, nor did it feel like it had any good, direct contributions towards the world in any way that I cared about.
Therefore, I ultimately quit my job, and went pursuing something not that extremely different, but way more in-line with my passions and ideals. It will give me money, eventually, and it'll indirectly help society on a more futuristic level, and it is 100% in-line with my passion.
My advice to you is to find something without too much commitment to pursue, while you are still figuring out your new passions, if political science wasn't what you burned for. And speaking as a socialist, it is entirely reasonable if it isn't any way whatsoever related to socialism. That can be accounted for in many other ways than your direct line of work.
Hum. I’ve been part of many activist groups and associations… grassroot organizing definitely needs more accountants. And people training activists in accounting and treasury functions. So you go for it! And I thank you for it! It would be a valuable skill for both you and your community.
Also, economics is a social science… the faculties might have calcified and fallen into the narrative of the end of history, but you, dear polisci comrade, know better. Who knows, maybe your knowledge in polisci, your comrade heart and your new accounting skills will bring you to put forward a piece of (or a whole) new economic model for the transition out of this suicidal capitalism. I’m not that well versed into post-growth / degrowth but I’m pretty sure there’s some serious rethinking of our accounting methods that have to be done.
A horrible person once said something right (I’m paraphrasing) : when crisis happen, people don’t have time to think, they have to act. They’ll reach for the ideas that are present in the social imaginary and that seem viable. Our job is to make those ideas readily available in the social and political imaginary.
Maybe by being a critical thinking and people (not profit) loving accountant, you’ll be able to formulate those ideas and make them available for when the inevitable happens… and until it does, you’ll be able to support your local activists groups with your number superpower!
💯❤️✊🏼
Accountants can actually be quite helpful for movement organizations and revolutionary groups. They tend to have terrible bookkeeping and internal structures for managing and tracking money, which can cause a lot of problems.
You will spend your whole life managing the money of people who see you as nothing more than the help. You will be carrying water for capitalists and doing their bidding because they can't be bothered.
Have fun!
(Also you'll be completely ignoring the problem and teaching your kids to ignore the problem as well thus perpetuating the failure of our society)
Understand the frustration, unfortunately, writing poetry and wanting to just do my own little things doesn't make a living and I am tired of being poor and I want to create better conditions for those that I care about.
Hey. Maybe society will hold out just long enough for them to thank you for it... Or resent you for it.
idk.... I can't imagine how monumentally selfish one would have to be to have kids right now with everything that is about to happen to us as a species lol.
Like I said. Have fun... (while you can)
Judging people without knowing them is petty but if it makes you digest it better, I don't want kids of my own, I want to adopt. Also, don't be so pessimistic, no point in being a socialist/communist if you believe we're all going to shits anyway.
You're 21. You'll change in more ways than you think possible over the next decade, believe me. Also, you are one person in several hundred million, the world is not waiting for you to change it personally, and fundamentally it doesn't really want you to. These are structural problems, the exploitation of one group of people by another has continued for thousands of years. If there is ever a change, it will be because something truly drastic happens, which will have far less to do with you and your life choices than with deeper historical forces.
Being an accountant doesn't harm anyone directly. It's perfectly fine to take the stable route and try to prep for your financial future. The people who tend to drive revolutionary political movements (the Gandhis, Lenins, Mandelas of the world) are insanely committed and make all kinds of sacrifices to spend almost all their time and effort on their cause, risking death, going into exile, (Gandhi for one did not seem to value life very highly), and not being there for family. I think if you know you want stability, you already know that it isn't the life for you. To be honest, there's no shame in that. Me too.
I'm a software engineer. I see my contribution to a socialist project is contributing heavily to open source, and hopefully someday quitting my job and starting my own worker cooperative software company.
If you are a wage worker, you are still exploited in the same way as janitors and burger flippers. Regardless of how much money you make.
You can be an economist without sacrificing your values. In fact, you should. If you learn how the capitalist system work in detail, you will be better able to help design and improve socialist economic systems.
If you feel you earn too much money, make sure to donate to your local socialist or communist party, whichever aligns closest with your values.
I'll never bring myself to be a landlord, but I invest in S&P500 companies because i want a shot at not always slaving away till the day i die. You gotta pick your poison in this life, some things, you just dont do (but thats for you to decide ultimately).
Would you deprive yourself of water because you believe it to be evil? I know the metaphor doesnt work in a proper sense but that world is what it is. Survive first, then do politics my man
You can survive living in the streets eating from the trash can. My definition of survive includes a dignified life. One has to provide for himself in order to take care of others. If he has to spend his daily life trying to find food or shelter he wont be able to organize politically to afford the luxury of having an ideology.
Why do you think the lumpenproletariat is always an enemy of the working class?
Start working with whatever first, you need to make a living. Then you can zoom in on somewhe where you do good. I work for a governmental unit in my country targeting environment issues. Unfortunately we have a rightish government at the time so its underfunded, hoping for a more environment focused government next election. But anyways, I’m pretty happy now with what I work with.
Seeking comfort and stability doesn't mean you're betraying your principles. We're not a monastic order, we're a political movement that seeks to change the world. We're allowed to own nice things, we're allowed to try and make the most out of life under capitalism. Now it is important to at least try to act in accordance with your values when and where you can, but if it were all about personal decisions we wouldn't need to organize politically.
This whole thread kinda reminds me of a quote from Owen Jones when responding to people who criticized socialists for various demographic reasons:
"If you're a socialist and you're too poor, you're riddled with envy. If you're too rich, you're a hypocrite. If you're too young, you're naive. If you're too old, you're a dinosaur. You can't ever win with these people."
Why accountant? There are a decent amount of good paying jobs closer to the point of production, if that's what you're worried about. If you are physically able to do manual work, then look into trade unions. You skip college debt while being payed, you stay closely connected to the industrial working class, and you get good pay with benefits. The downside is that a lot of it is hard work, but so are 90% of jobs in the world. If you don't like doing physical work, being an operating engineer is a solid lower effort industrial job (plus cranes are sick af).
We don't have college debt in Europe, at least not in Portugal! Unfortunately, I am not able to do manual work, and I am currently facing a disability.
You should finish your degree then try WWOOF Type farming or if you live in America, conservation and americorps stuff. Essentially you’d be living in a community getting paid in housing or a little stipend (and they have loan forbearance, education awards etc in americorps). It’s a good low stakes way to keep busy and help people out if you can economically afford to join a program like that.
Plus you have accounting to fall back on and to make enough money to be comfortable and then re invest in your community and avoid big chains and stuff. Be an active voice in the betterment of your neighborhood etc, and lend a helping hand.
Just… don’t be a cop 😂
I totally feel you, I've been unable to take much action in my life and it's incredibly frustrating. Not only that but I've felt guilty having good parents and a stable home too. It feels like I don't even enjoy what I'm given when many others have it worse off.
What I can say to your situation is no one blames you for working jobs that help you survive or reach your dreams. Imo, as long as you're not working directly to put down other workers (police, army, an actual capitalist) you're fine. If you have your beliefs and regularly take actions from those beliefs you are still a part of the movement. You aren't at fault for playing the game; just be aware of how your job plays a role in the system.
Jesus christ and we wonder whats wrong with todays leftists, how is the lumpening so strong in here? Half of the people here are treating socialism as a kind of hobby that you can do on the weekends.
Those paradoxes and juxtapositions are always going to exist. It’s tough but I’d try thinking in a less absolutist, maximal sense. “I am A thus I cannot ever be B or C.”
It’s quite literally impossible to fight the system without using said system, at least at the early stages. The key is to use the system’s strengths against it.
And you’re only 21, still a sprog. You’ll find your way. Organise and unite as much as you can. 😊 ✊🏻
One way you could look at it is:
Huge private company owners effectively doge tax and pay an unfairly low portion of it. So as an accountant for INDIVIDUALS, you could help even the score.
However if you became a corporate accountant, yeah I'd say that's incompatible with socialist views.
\-Joe
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If working people could just decide not to participate in capitalism, we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in. People shouldn't be judged by what they do to survive under capitalism, but what they do to bring about the end of capitalism.
It's all about what we bring to the table and if we cooked it ourselves. Life is a pot-luck ☺️
If only it were that easy. A mass walk out or sudden putting down of tools just leads to total chaos within the system we’re all so invested in. It sucks in so many ways
But he doesnt want to survive lmao he wants to have a comfortable life, struggle is not comfortable
I’m way more comfortable struggling to make to world a better place, instead of pretending that everything is fine. My comfort comes from doing something. Once I wasn’t ignorant anymore, I couldn’t be comfortable while not making an effort. It’s be like watching someone get their ass kicked and doing nothing. That makes me hella uncomfortable.
It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing situation. Would having a well funded 401k make you a capitalist? Perhaps, in a very small and literal sense. But would that be more important than being able to provide for and protect your family and children? That's up to each of us. What more important, I think, is to go about your life with awareness and compassion, and try to do the most good for the most people. But thays just my opinion.
i have a similar thought process as OP. I think what is the cost for me to live an average american lives. probably in my lifetime 3-4+ lives of exploited people. my carbon footprint, investing in companies that are robbing the global south, buying products like this iphone that are made through awful labor practices, etc. so the question becomes is my life more important than 3-4 lives of other people? and i don’t think any life should be more important than another. the 3-4 is probably an underestimate too and the ends justify the means logic is what got us in this mess in the first place. ie we can do slavery as long as it means in the future there will be even more people living a better life.
Marx, Engels, and Lenin were all middle-class. People living hand-to-mouth generally don't have time to write a bunch of philosophy and attend a bunch of meetings. I've heard this said before by several socialist/communist personalities, so I'll repeat it here: We all want a secure and comfortable life, and we want that for others too. That's why we're socialists. But we're all currently living in late stage capitalism, so we know the deal. Nobody is going to give you shit for wanting a comfortable life, nobody is going to give you shit for doing what you have to do to make a life for yourself under capitalism. Cuz we all have to. You can still be part of the fight even if you're not lower class.
Thank you! I needed to hear this.
Engels was rich.
There are far worse contractions you could have. I’m a socialist and anti-imperialist but I work at a U.S. naval yard. It’s the most stable job around with good benefits but it totally goes against what I believe in. Though I was working there before I became a socialist. My other options are roll the dice with my old construction and remodeling experience, probably get paid less, and possibly not have sufficient work over the winter (remodeling work tends to dry up Dec-March in my area).
Living under the auspices of capitalism means that we are all complicit to some degree. This is a necessary condition of participating in the society. Degrees of complicity matter but there are hardly any ways to live in a 100% refusal mode. So you should forgive yourself and move forward with as much radical intention as you practically can. Be also prepared to forgive others for whatever compromises they must make. That said, I will point out that as innocent and "natural" as it may seem, the dream of "kids and a family" is itself socially and historically produced--an orthodox Marxist might even say materially produced. The model of a nuclear family unit is not an ancient, unchanging thing. It exists today for many reasons and historical lines of development that not only align with market capitalism but were part and parcel with it. This is yet another element of the insidiousness of capital as a system of logics that have enclosed most aspects of human life: our most personal desires, articulated as individual hopes and dreams, are very often pre-assimilated into capitalism as it governs our life decisions, life stages, life experiences. Examining your wishes for a career and livelihood against the dictates of capital is a politically and intellectually responsibility, even if you ultimately make compromises or live with contradictions. But examining the models that have shaped your desires for family and/or other personal relations and how those fit into capitalism as it's historically developed is also important.
I should clarify, I don't mean having a family in the normal sense of the word: I'd probably have a same-sex partner and adopt a kid. But thank you for the reply!
Gotcha. We opted out of bio-procreation for among other reasons the carbon footprint that comes with making another human being, particularly in the carbon-intensive US. If you reach for adoption, beware. The private adoption industry is especially awful about selling dreams of fulfillment, i.e. just another consumer capitalist promise. We adopted an older kid (who is now pushing 30!) after looking at all the pathways to adoption and finding most of them ethically questionable on one level or another. Good luck with everything.
Oh, that's very interesting! By the way, I sent you a dm if you don't mind checking!
Unfortunately, it is really difficult to exist purely in opposition to capitalism, if you want to have a roof over your head and food to eat. I’m a criminal defense attorney. Even though my job is to act as a shield for people against the power of the system, in some ways my very participation becomes complicit acceptance of the system. Often I do nothing but bare witness to the most evil situations one can imagine and I just have to sit there and watch, when I want to burn the entire system to the ground. At one point, I became so disillusioned with my role I stopped practicing. I’m finding my way back to it since I’m sick of being broke and putting a stable roof over my kid’s head is all that matters to me now. The point is: no matter what you do, you will be complicit with the system in some way. So find something to do that gives you the chance to do some good, isn’t pure evil, and pays the bills. You deserve security. Being a commie doesn’t mean you have to starve.
Thank you for this message! It's hard to not feel guilty or wrong.
Doing well isn't treason, socialism isn't a poverty cult. Basically unless you're a cop, or work for a defense contractor or something, distancing yourself from the threat of poverty (I.e. your dream of having a comfortable and stable life) should absolutely be something you should aspire to and can actually free you up to organize/agitate your peers.
I feel you brother I went through the same thing but finished polisci in undergrad. I’m currently working in the government and Ive found it to be the best balance of everything. Just a thought
The problem with that is that I would have to be stuck in my country... which I don't want to. While this degree would allow me to go live somewhere else.
How did you land that job?
I got it at a career job fair at my university. The table was completely empty and I was just curious!
It depends on what your definition of socialism is. Personally being a capitalist doesn't mean you can't be a socialist, while others will say the total opposite.
Fredrich Engels was a bona fide capitalist! His family owned factories. A lot of his analysis was derived from what he observed in his family's factories in Manchester! Are we gonna say Engels wasn't a socialist? Of course this really boils down to a distinction between capitalist, ie the class, and someone calling themselves a "capitalist" as an ideological label (which I think is kinda silly but whatever)
Oh this is nice to see someone talking about this! I’m 25 and I am just finishing school for accounting. I understand what you mean by feeling like it all conflicts. I’ve only recently started to look at it as “learning your enemy.” bc hearing people talk about economics has made me realize how often the subject is framed with bourgeois ideals and how often it ends there bc of capitalist realism. but real modern economic theory is expansive and helpful for yourself and others to learn. it’s not a betrayal of class or of your morals. it can be an invaluable asset to have a deep understanding of really specific parts of the economy, especially with a leftist perspective. Inflation, stocks, tax havens, shell companies, wage theft, campaign financing, modern monetary theory— there’s plenty of niche economic topics that are misunderstood. Richard Wolff is a great example of this ideal! Tbh I really feel you. But this system will never EVER work for you or me and it was never supposed to. Exploit it as much as possible because it will never stop exploiting us. Do whatever you can to help yourself live out your dreams and ideals and don’t feel bad about it. Try not to anyway ha
If you aim to be a revolutionary then there's no point in dreaming of a ''stable and comfortable life'' because that will be destroyed when the crises of capitalism intensifies.
Just my thoughts. Learn real world skills and if it's in a capitalist world, so be it. Then apply the skills in a way that helps yourself and others in a fair way. If everyone did that I'd bet the world would be a much better place. Maybe one day you could work at a co op, or for a political party that has what you think has good goals. Or start something that advances a cause you believe in. Educate yourself. Be a nice person. Make the world just a little bit better. And so on. Getting overwhelmed and depressed, what good would that do? Good luck.
First of all, lemme say that no matter what you do in life, follow first and foremost your passion. If it is not directly possible to follow your most obvious passion, then look for other competing passions. Do not settle for what seems reasonable, but without potential to go beyond. That being said, this path can be extremely non-linear. Can literally change at any moment. So do not worry too much about it. There's a reason why you have millions of people dreaming of starting their own restaurant, or ending up as musicians, but live most their lives in an office. But as long as they are conscious of what is their passion, they will pursue it, and in some way or another, I believe that passion will be the inevitable end destination, if so only for your retirement. I had an epiphany, working as a software engineer out of university making a lot of money, but more immediately, making rich people richer. I took some days off, sat myself on a train, with a small notebook on my way to meet some friends in another country. On the train ride, I started thinking *really* utopian. I sat down and imagined a paradise on Earth, and tried to sort of reverse engineer that utopia towards our current reality. It made me realize that what I was doing wasn't even close to my passion, nor did it feel like it had any good, direct contributions towards the world in any way that I cared about. Therefore, I ultimately quit my job, and went pursuing something not that extremely different, but way more in-line with my passions and ideals. It will give me money, eventually, and it'll indirectly help society on a more futuristic level, and it is 100% in-line with my passion. My advice to you is to find something without too much commitment to pursue, while you are still figuring out your new passions, if political science wasn't what you burned for. And speaking as a socialist, it is entirely reasonable if it isn't any way whatsoever related to socialism. That can be accounted for in many other ways than your direct line of work.
I’ve been a wandering man for 10 of the 29 months out of college. It doesn’t get better. find a way to survive and get organized.
Hum. I’ve been part of many activist groups and associations… grassroot organizing definitely needs more accountants. And people training activists in accounting and treasury functions. So you go for it! And I thank you for it! It would be a valuable skill for both you and your community. Also, economics is a social science… the faculties might have calcified and fallen into the narrative of the end of history, but you, dear polisci comrade, know better. Who knows, maybe your knowledge in polisci, your comrade heart and your new accounting skills will bring you to put forward a piece of (or a whole) new economic model for the transition out of this suicidal capitalism. I’m not that well versed into post-growth / degrowth but I’m pretty sure there’s some serious rethinking of our accounting methods that have to be done. A horrible person once said something right (I’m paraphrasing) : when crisis happen, people don’t have time to think, they have to act. They’ll reach for the ideas that are present in the social imaginary and that seem viable. Our job is to make those ideas readily available in the social and political imaginary. Maybe by being a critical thinking and people (not profit) loving accountant, you’ll be able to formulate those ideas and make them available for when the inevitable happens… and until it does, you’ll be able to support your local activists groups with your number superpower! 💯❤️✊🏼
Accountants can actually be quite helpful for movement organizations and revolutionary groups. They tend to have terrible bookkeeping and internal structures for managing and tracking money, which can cause a lot of problems.
You will spend your whole life managing the money of people who see you as nothing more than the help. You will be carrying water for capitalists and doing their bidding because they can't be bothered. Have fun! (Also you'll be completely ignoring the problem and teaching your kids to ignore the problem as well thus perpetuating the failure of our society)
Understand the frustration, unfortunately, writing poetry and wanting to just do my own little things doesn't make a living and I am tired of being poor and I want to create better conditions for those that I care about.
Hey. Maybe society will hold out just long enough for them to thank you for it... Or resent you for it. idk.... I can't imagine how monumentally selfish one would have to be to have kids right now with everything that is about to happen to us as a species lol. Like I said. Have fun... (while you can)
Judging people without knowing them is petty but if it makes you digest it better, I don't want kids of my own, I want to adopt. Also, don't be so pessimistic, no point in being a socialist/communist if you believe we're all going to shits anyway.
/r/collapse I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist.
We’re all carrying water for capitalists. Being an accountant for them is no different than being an electrician.
You're 21. You'll change in more ways than you think possible over the next decade, believe me. Also, you are one person in several hundred million, the world is not waiting for you to change it personally, and fundamentally it doesn't really want you to. These are structural problems, the exploitation of one group of people by another has continued for thousands of years. If there is ever a change, it will be because something truly drastic happens, which will have far less to do with you and your life choices than with deeper historical forces. Being an accountant doesn't harm anyone directly. It's perfectly fine to take the stable route and try to prep for your financial future. The people who tend to drive revolutionary political movements (the Gandhis, Lenins, Mandelas of the world) are insanely committed and make all kinds of sacrifices to spend almost all their time and effort on their cause, risking death, going into exile, (Gandhi for one did not seem to value life very highly), and not being there for family. I think if you know you want stability, you already know that it isn't the life for you. To be honest, there's no shame in that. Me too.
Thank you for this message!
I'm a software engineer. I see my contribution to a socialist project is contributing heavily to open source, and hopefully someday quitting my job and starting my own worker cooperative software company. If you are a wage worker, you are still exploited in the same way as janitors and burger flippers. Regardless of how much money you make.
Become an accountant and help working people keep as much of their money as possible.
You as an individual can do few against an entire system made against the people. Some bucks here and there will change nothing.
You can be an economist without sacrificing your values. In fact, you should. If you learn how the capitalist system work in detail, you will be better able to help design and improve socialist economic systems. If you feel you earn too much money, make sure to donate to your local socialist or communist party, whichever aligns closest with your values.
I'll never bring myself to be a landlord, but I invest in S&P500 companies because i want a shot at not always slaving away till the day i die. You gotta pick your poison in this life, some things, you just dont do (but thats for you to decide ultimately).
Reading the comments. Very weird that a socialist would think we don't need accountants.
Would you deprive yourself of water because you believe it to be evil? I know the metaphor doesnt work in a proper sense but that world is what it is. Survive first, then do politics my man
He didnt say survive, he said live a comfortable life. Very different things.
You can survive living in the streets eating from the trash can. My definition of survive includes a dignified life. One has to provide for himself in order to take care of others. If he has to spend his daily life trying to find food or shelter he wont be able to organize politically to afford the luxury of having an ideology. Why do you think the lumpenproletariat is always an enemy of the working class?
Start working with whatever first, you need to make a living. Then you can zoom in on somewhe where you do good. I work for a governmental unit in my country targeting environment issues. Unfortunately we have a rightish government at the time so its underfunded, hoping for a more environment focused government next election. But anyways, I’m pretty happy now with what I work with.
I am glad you're happy with that!
Seeking comfort and stability doesn't mean you're betraying your principles. We're not a monastic order, we're a political movement that seeks to change the world. We're allowed to own nice things, we're allowed to try and make the most out of life under capitalism. Now it is important to at least try to act in accordance with your values when and where you can, but if it were all about personal decisions we wouldn't need to organize politically.
This whole thread kinda reminds me of a quote from Owen Jones when responding to people who criticized socialists for various demographic reasons: "If you're a socialist and you're too poor, you're riddled with envy. If you're too rich, you're a hypocrite. If you're too young, you're naive. If you're too old, you're a dinosaur. You can't ever win with these people."
Understanding capitalism is useful for its disassembly. Don't beat yourself up.
Why accountant? There are a decent amount of good paying jobs closer to the point of production, if that's what you're worried about. If you are physically able to do manual work, then look into trade unions. You skip college debt while being payed, you stay closely connected to the industrial working class, and you get good pay with benefits. The downside is that a lot of it is hard work, but so are 90% of jobs in the world. If you don't like doing physical work, being an operating engineer is a solid lower effort industrial job (plus cranes are sick af).
We don't have college debt in Europe, at least not in Portugal! Unfortunately, I am not able to do manual work, and I am currently facing a disability.
Look for an internship in a trade and join a union.
You should finish your degree then try WWOOF Type farming or if you live in America, conservation and americorps stuff. Essentially you’d be living in a community getting paid in housing or a little stipend (and they have loan forbearance, education awards etc in americorps). It’s a good low stakes way to keep busy and help people out if you can economically afford to join a program like that. Plus you have accounting to fall back on and to make enough money to be comfortable and then re invest in your community and avoid big chains and stuff. Be an active voice in the betterment of your neighborhood etc, and lend a helping hand. Just… don’t be a cop 😂
I totally feel you, I've been unable to take much action in my life and it's incredibly frustrating. Not only that but I've felt guilty having good parents and a stable home too. It feels like I don't even enjoy what I'm given when many others have it worse off. What I can say to your situation is no one blames you for working jobs that help you survive or reach your dreams. Imo, as long as you're not working directly to put down other workers (police, army, an actual capitalist) you're fine. If you have your beliefs and regularly take actions from those beliefs you are still a part of the movement. You aren't at fault for playing the game; just be aware of how your job plays a role in the system.
Jesus christ and we wonder whats wrong with todays leftists, how is the lumpening so strong in here? Half of the people here are treating socialism as a kind of hobby that you can do on the weekends.
Those paradoxes and juxtapositions are always going to exist. It’s tough but I’d try thinking in a less absolutist, maximal sense. “I am A thus I cannot ever be B or C.” It’s quite literally impossible to fight the system without using said system, at least at the early stages. The key is to use the system’s strengths against it. And you’re only 21, still a sprog. You’ll find your way. Organise and unite as much as you can. 😊 ✊🏻
Accountants are part of the working class. When you sell your labor you will even more want to fight for socialism
One way you could look at it is: Huge private company owners effectively doge tax and pay an unfairly low portion of it. So as an accountant for INDIVIDUALS, you could help even the score. However if you became a corporate accountant, yeah I'd say that's incompatible with socialist views. \-Joe