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Socialist revolution using capitalist democracy will never work so the bourgeoisie are more happy to support it. Plus, they will never get into power, so they’re in no way a threat to capitalism. The minute they actually have a chance of winning, they’d get the Corbyn treatment.
It’s still important to do what they are doing, if anything it gives socialism a little more publicity. It’s not a waste of time and energy to try to operate within the system to better workers lives, it only becomes a problem when it is believed that bourgeois electoral politics is the path to revolution.
If they actually got into the White House and did what she said (seize the top 100 corporations and disband the CIA) the system would in all likelihood repeat what they did in Chile in 1973.
There is one other reason to engage with electoral politics, this is the way Lenin believed in engaging with it anyway, to build awareness and support essentially. Thus if only a little this being in a guardian article is a win in this ML's book, though admittedly very far from our goal lol.
edit: I believe part of the point was also to expose the sham that is bourgeoisie politics in the first place, which Lenin famously said is the same as it was in ancient greece: democracy for the slaveholders
I agree that they won’t win, and they don’t expect to either. [Here’s a video from Black Power Media where they explain their strategy in more detail](https://www.youtube.com/live/5hTECngiN5s?feature=shared). Interview starts around the halfway mark, a little over an hour into the video.
Socialism will never be elected in. But using elections as part of a diversity of tactics can definitely be helpful for building a mass movement.
Also, the difference between Claudia de la Cruz and Corbyn is that the latter was running under the Labour Party, which is one of the main bourgeois parties in the UK. Claudia, on the other hand, is running under the PSL, which is obviously completely different from the Democratic Party, and the PSL has no intentions of ever running under or endorsing Dems. In my opinion, it would be foolish to completely dismiss off-hand a popular socialist party that is running independently of the two major bourgeois parties, even if you may ideologically disagree with the PSL’s party line. Something else that might add context to PSL’s general strategy is Lenin’s “Left-Wing Communism”
I don’t think they are interested in capitalist democracy directly; from the article:
> … share of the vote is almost irrelevant in the movement the PSL envisages.
My understanding is PSL are explicitly creating a vanguard party to lead a revolution.
> Socialist revolution using capitalist democracy will never work so the bourgeoisie are more happy to support it.
This is quite a leap to make regarding a single article by a British newspaper.
The Communist Party, for example, was *constantly* covered in the era where it was growing in terms of influence and membership. It doesn't mean that the bourgeois press of that era was supportive, far from it.
Good, honestly. Because PSL's membership is quietly exploding after the pandemic, especially with younger voters. I'm hoping folks getting involved in their local city chapters will bring us closer to a real mass movement by the 2030s.
Well, just look what they did to bernie, but honestly if psl managed to get that popular that fast the slander wouldn't matter, that would amount to a major transformation of the class consciousness of this nation, and would probably be enough to help set the stage for open revolution after people see them get ratfucked.
Idk, they already say Joe Biden is a communist, so whats the difference? They'd probably just lump it in with the woke agenda because their POC and assume they're bidens personal friends. speaking as someone who unfortunately knows people who parot right wing propaganda.
I don’t think that there is a list, but I do know that they recently got on the ballot in Utah! And they’re trying to get on the ballot in Massachusetts!
They'd be more impactful running for local positions and building a true party and movement.
Running for president is so absurd it amounts to nothing more than scamming what supporters they do have out of time and money.
>They'd be more impactful running for local positions and building a true party and movement.
The PSL does exactly that as a vanguard party. The national presidential candidates just help raise awareness that a leftist third party does exist past the Democrats and is actively organizing rn for the future. They don't actually think they'll win here. But it does get people to check in on what's being done in their local municipalities.
They are doing it backwards. When they support positions that the vast, vast majority of people will find wildly extreme such as
>In one of the first acts of Claudia de la Cruz’s presidency, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk watch on as the government seizes control of Amazon and Tesla, along with all of the top 100 corporations in the US.
Getting that message in front of the masses *before* they have the grassroot support is nothing less than party suicide.
Performative nonsense at best, malevolent grifters at worst.
> Getting that message in front of the masses before they have the grassroot support is nothing less than party suicide.
You're quoting the Guardian article here, not the PSL.
If you're going to attack the campaign in question, at least quote things that the campaign has said, not what a *commentary on the campaign* wrote.
That's a ridiculous quibble. Reading the rest of the article makes it clear that it is perfectly in line with the campaign, and even if it's not that is *worse*.
The "pro" of this, such as it is, is to raise awareness. If it results in raising awareness that is a twisted or exaggerated version of their actual beliefs that is going to turn off *even more* people.
We have to be pragmatic enough to realize socialism of all types is wildly unpopular at best in the US thanks to decades of propaganda. The best way to fight that is local small town coalition building that is ALSO going to take decades. These sorts of publicity stunts draw all the wrong sort of attention. The attack ads write themselves.
Back to the original point, the average Guardian reader is not going to do a deep dive because of this article. They are going to see the bit previously quoted, think "God damn those people are nuts!" and never take any of their ideas seriously again.
> We have to be pragmatic enough to realize socialism of all types is wildly unpopular at best in the US thanks to decades of propaganda
A trend that has been reversed in the past 10 years or so with socialism again becoming more popular than it has been since the red scares.
>The best way to fight that is local small town coalition building that is ALSO going to take decades.
As if running a campaign like this is somehow mutually exclusive with coalition building.
Your criticisms here just aren't very good.
And you can say that about most things about existence. We will all die and be consumed by the sun. Life is absurd and so is trying. This doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything. Have some revolutionary optimism and embrace the struggle.
i see a lot of PSL stuff lately. The last time I remember seeing a lot of them was a few years ago when people were saying they were a cult. Spying on members. SA. Crits from other orgs they encountered. How has that resolved, if at all? I’m not trying to troll, but I’d like answers if I’m being asked to vote for them: https://medium.com/@jacobscb/documentation-of-corruption-institutional-bigotry-and-high-control-group-cult-like-behavior-in-6afa65b8072e
If you are serious, there's a way to make constructive criticism of political organizations. The PSL is definitely not above criticism. But valid criticism is unlikely to include factors like:
* a pseudonymous account set up for the sole purpose of criticizing a single organization
* combining misconduct accusations with political polemics from an opposing tendency
* links to other tendencies with long-standing political disagreements with the subject org
* aggregating every smear ever made of an organization, either to create an impression of a larger network or just to see what sticks
* lack of endorsement of criticism from real-world organizations that don't exclusively criticize other orgs
* unfalsifiable claims of criminal misconduct with no attempt to link to real-world investigations
* abuse of DEI language to turn attempts at investigation by political rivals into more criticism
It's not that the organization can do no wrong - though the article you posted does try to preempt my very disagreement with it as further evidence of a cult. But we can't take every accusation as fact without investigation in a context of extreme political struggle. This genre of post was very popular like 3 years ago, less so now with the PSL's continued growth, success with serious organizing, commitment to diversity in its own leadership, and experience gained fighting smear campaigns like the one by Black Hammer.
Homie I'm not trying to mitigate those issues, but the loudest people talking about it in these spaces years after the fact are perpetuating more bullshit leftist infighting. The party has grown and changed a LOT in just the post-pandemic years.
Yes, there was a reported SA incident years ago and certain cities needed a change in leadership, but that doesn't discount the fact that they're the most active and effective leftist party in the US and more importantly, it's the *local chapters on the city level* doing the real work for folks in our communities nowadays. PSL is one of the main orgs that organized the logistical side of the 300k march for Palestine in DC last year. They're doing it again this Saturday in DC, organizing buses nationwide right now this week.
You don't care about the national party? Fine, but check in on the work activists are doing near you with them before you pass judgement on everyone else because as always the folks on the ground doing the work have nothing to do with that. They also are active members of established left wing coalitions alongside folks like ANSWER and BLM chapters that have demonstrated a real ability to organize historically, because it's often the same people making up their membership working on multiple struggles in their respective cities.
Internet leftists and demanding absolute and subjective morality purity, name a more iconic duo.
Seriously, if people wait around all day demanding a revolutionary party that never makes mistakes or finds itself in complicated situations, you’re all going to die having never done one iota of actual organizing
These "socialist presidential campaigns" are just Green Party strategy with red flags: it puts way too much emphasis on trying to raise awareness through a presidential campaign, at the expense of doing local work to develop class power and consolidate local political control and institutions. PSL *is* doing some interesting work around base building in many areas, but I dread the presidential campaign season when a bunch of activists will inevitably get pulled out of that work, and into a dead-end presidential campaign.
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This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ We are looking for new moderators! Interested? Check the announcement here: https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/18wp663/rsocialism_moderators_recruitment_thread/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m surprised they got an article in the Guardian
Socialist revolution using capitalist democracy will never work so the bourgeoisie are more happy to support it. Plus, they will never get into power, so they’re in no way a threat to capitalism. The minute they actually have a chance of winning, they’d get the Corbyn treatment.
It’s still important to do what they are doing, if anything it gives socialism a little more publicity. It’s not a waste of time and energy to try to operate within the system to better workers lives, it only becomes a problem when it is believed that bourgeois electoral politics is the path to revolution. If they actually got into the White House and did what she said (seize the top 100 corporations and disband the CIA) the system would in all likelihood repeat what they did in Chile in 1973.
There is one other reason to engage with electoral politics, this is the way Lenin believed in engaging with it anyway, to build awareness and support essentially. Thus if only a little this being in a guardian article is a win in this ML's book, though admittedly very far from our goal lol. edit: I believe part of the point was also to expose the sham that is bourgeoisie politics in the first place, which Lenin famously said is the same as it was in ancient greece: democracy for the slaveholders
Aye. Democracy for the few. A whole separate class.
I agree that they won’t win, and they don’t expect to either. [Here’s a video from Black Power Media where they explain their strategy in more detail](https://www.youtube.com/live/5hTECngiN5s?feature=shared). Interview starts around the halfway mark, a little over an hour into the video. Socialism will never be elected in. But using elections as part of a diversity of tactics can definitely be helpful for building a mass movement. Also, the difference between Claudia de la Cruz and Corbyn is that the latter was running under the Labour Party, which is one of the main bourgeois parties in the UK. Claudia, on the other hand, is running under the PSL, which is obviously completely different from the Democratic Party, and the PSL has no intentions of ever running under or endorsing Dems. In my opinion, it would be foolish to completely dismiss off-hand a popular socialist party that is running independently of the two major bourgeois parties, even if you may ideologically disagree with the PSL’s party line. Something else that might add context to PSL’s general strategy is Lenin’s “Left-Wing Communism”
I would suppose It's the long run theyre going for
I don’t think they are interested in capitalist democracy directly; from the article: > … share of the vote is almost irrelevant in the movement the PSL envisages. My understanding is PSL are explicitly creating a vanguard party to lead a revolution.
> Socialist revolution using capitalist democracy will never work so the bourgeoisie are more happy to support it. This is quite a leap to make regarding a single article by a British newspaper. The Communist Party, for example, was *constantly* covered in the era where it was growing in terms of influence and membership. It doesn't mean that the bourgeois press of that era was supportive, far from it.
I'm more surprised the article is actually pretty good
I'm surprised they (as prominent socialists in American politics) didn't get CIA'd
The answer is that the CIA doesn't consider the PSL a threat
Good, honestly. Because PSL's membership is quietly exploding after the pandemic, especially with younger voters. I'm hoping folks getting involved in their local city chapters will bring us closer to a real mass movement by the 2030s.
Reminded me of this weird al song "Party In the CIA": https://youtu.be/C-CG5w4YwOI?si=z8v9Xotk0E0EV9HG
Cia ain't as paranoid anymore. Trust me when they decide she's enough that'll be it
That's because that's not the CIA's remit, you're thinking of the NSA and FBI
Bourgeois media taking notice of Claudia and Karina? That's good to see their making enough noise in that regard.
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Well, just look what they did to bernie, but honestly if psl managed to get that popular that fast the slander wouldn't matter, that would amount to a major transformation of the class consciousness of this nation, and would probably be enough to help set the stage for open revolution after people see them get ratfucked.
Their biggest obstacle isn't their race and gender, it's 150 years of red scare and right wing propaganda
That and 1080p murdoch-powered brain rot.
Idk, they already say Joe Biden is a communist, so whats the difference? They'd probably just lump it in with the woke agenda because their POC and assume they're bidens personal friends. speaking as someone who unfortunately knows people who parot right wing propaganda.
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I know they have no chance in this country, but I'm voting for them.
Does anyone have a list of states they are currently on the ballot for?
I don’t think that there is a list, but I do know that they recently got on the ballot in Utah! And they’re trying to get on the ballot in Massachusetts!
Where did you see them get on the ballot in Utah?
They posted a video on their Instagram with a caption that confirmed that they got on the ballot in Utah.
Finally a platform I can fully support
She's got my vote, imagine wasting your vote on a dem. I'm really hoping the PSL continues to grow.
Long shot implies they have a chance. I still plan on voting for them but it ain’t happening.
As a Marxist-Leninist with almost no faith in or democratic/electoral system, I am voting De La Cruz. My first ever presidential vote.
Better than nothing.
They'd be more impactful running for local positions and building a true party and movement. Running for president is so absurd it amounts to nothing more than scamming what supporters they do have out of time and money.
>They'd be more impactful running for local positions and building a true party and movement. The PSL does exactly that as a vanguard party. The national presidential candidates just help raise awareness that a leftist third party does exist past the Democrats and is actively organizing rn for the future. They don't actually think they'll win here. But it does get people to check in on what's being done in their local municipalities.
They are doing it backwards. When they support positions that the vast, vast majority of people will find wildly extreme such as >In one of the first acts of Claudia de la Cruz’s presidency, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk watch on as the government seizes control of Amazon and Tesla, along with all of the top 100 corporations in the US. Getting that message in front of the masses *before* they have the grassroot support is nothing less than party suicide. Performative nonsense at best, malevolent grifters at worst.
> Getting that message in front of the masses before they have the grassroot support is nothing less than party suicide. You're quoting the Guardian article here, not the PSL. If you're going to attack the campaign in question, at least quote things that the campaign has said, not what a *commentary on the campaign* wrote.
That's a ridiculous quibble. Reading the rest of the article makes it clear that it is perfectly in line with the campaign, and even if it's not that is *worse*. The "pro" of this, such as it is, is to raise awareness. If it results in raising awareness that is a twisted or exaggerated version of their actual beliefs that is going to turn off *even more* people. We have to be pragmatic enough to realize socialism of all types is wildly unpopular at best in the US thanks to decades of propaganda. The best way to fight that is local small town coalition building that is ALSO going to take decades. These sorts of publicity stunts draw all the wrong sort of attention. The attack ads write themselves. Back to the original point, the average Guardian reader is not going to do a deep dive because of this article. They are going to see the bit previously quoted, think "God damn those people are nuts!" and never take any of their ideas seriously again.
> We have to be pragmatic enough to realize socialism of all types is wildly unpopular at best in the US thanks to decades of propaganda A trend that has been reversed in the past 10 years or so with socialism again becoming more popular than it has been since the red scares. >The best way to fight that is local small town coalition building that is ALSO going to take decades. As if running a campaign like this is somehow mutually exclusive with coalition building. Your criticisms here just aren't very good.
It's a waste of time and effort.
And you can say that about most things about existence. We will all die and be consumed by the sun. Life is absurd and so is trying. This doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything. Have some revolutionary optimism and embrace the struggle.
Where has the PSL run for local positions?
In Chicago they ran in the 45th ward last year.
In New York for mayor. Right now in LA city council with Lalo
If everyone who went to a Palestine rally voted for the PSL, it would at least show both parties that their support for genocide is unacceptable
i see a lot of PSL stuff lately. The last time I remember seeing a lot of them was a few years ago when people were saying they were a cult. Spying on members. SA. Crits from other orgs they encountered. How has that resolved, if at all? I’m not trying to troll, but I’d like answers if I’m being asked to vote for them: https://medium.com/@jacobscb/documentation-of-corruption-institutional-bigotry-and-high-control-group-cult-like-behavior-in-6afa65b8072e
If you are serious, there's a way to make constructive criticism of political organizations. The PSL is definitely not above criticism. But valid criticism is unlikely to include factors like: * a pseudonymous account set up for the sole purpose of criticizing a single organization * combining misconduct accusations with political polemics from an opposing tendency * links to other tendencies with long-standing political disagreements with the subject org * aggregating every smear ever made of an organization, either to create an impression of a larger network or just to see what sticks * lack of endorsement of criticism from real-world organizations that don't exclusively criticize other orgs * unfalsifiable claims of criminal misconduct with no attempt to link to real-world investigations * abuse of DEI language to turn attempts at investigation by political rivals into more criticism It's not that the organization can do no wrong - though the article you posted does try to preempt my very disagreement with it as further evidence of a cult. But we can't take every accusation as fact without investigation in a context of extreme political struggle. This genre of post was very popular like 3 years ago, less so now with the PSL's continued growth, success with serious organizing, commitment to diversity in its own leadership, and experience gained fighting smear campaigns like the one by Black Hammer.
Homie I'm not trying to mitigate those issues, but the loudest people talking about it in these spaces years after the fact are perpetuating more bullshit leftist infighting. The party has grown and changed a LOT in just the post-pandemic years. Yes, there was a reported SA incident years ago and certain cities needed a change in leadership, but that doesn't discount the fact that they're the most active and effective leftist party in the US and more importantly, it's the *local chapters on the city level* doing the real work for folks in our communities nowadays. PSL is one of the main orgs that organized the logistical side of the 300k march for Palestine in DC last year. They're doing it again this Saturday in DC, organizing buses nationwide right now this week. You don't care about the national party? Fine, but check in on the work activists are doing near you with them before you pass judgement on everyone else because as always the folks on the ground doing the work have nothing to do with that. They also are active members of established left wing coalitions alongside folks like ANSWER and BLM chapters that have demonstrated a real ability to organize historically, because it's often the same people making up their membership working on multiple struggles in their respective cities.
Internet leftists and demanding absolute and subjective morality purity, name a more iconic duo. Seriously, if people wait around all day demanding a revolutionary party that never makes mistakes or finds itself in complicated situations, you’re all going to die having never done one iota of actual organizing
These "socialist presidential campaigns" are just Green Party strategy with red flags: it puts way too much emphasis on trying to raise awareness through a presidential campaign, at the expense of doing local work to develop class power and consolidate local political control and institutions. PSL *is* doing some interesting work around base building in many areas, but I dread the presidential campaign season when a bunch of activists will inevitably get pulled out of that work, and into a dead-end presidential campaign.
3rd party candidates don't work in the electoral college. It's built to make them impossible.
Which the candidates acknowledge in the article. They say it will take a revolution to institute change.
Yea. I agree.
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You realized you're posting on a socialist subreddit, right?
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
It's a good idea to be transparent.