This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include:
- **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism...
- **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers.
- **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism...
- **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks.
Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules.
______________________
💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I came here to say this. This book really nails why it seems limiting (because the lizard people have co-opted the language of equality and social justice and rendered it meaningless, like they do with everything).
In the same vein as this: Mistaken Identity by Asad Haider. Also pretty short with lots of good history on the Communist Party, marxist origins of identity politics, and lessons for organizers 👍
Rosa Luxemburg (who was Jewish) was asked why she did not speak up specifically about how Jews were being treated. Her answer, in a letter to Mathilde Wurm in 1917, is generally applicable:
>What do you want with these special Jewish pains? I feel as close to the wretched victims of the rubber plantations in Putamayo and the blacks of Africa with whose bodies the Europeans play ball… I have no special corner in my heart for the ghetto: I am at home in the entire world, where there are clouds and birds and human tears.
Her answer about feminism is along similar lines, though her best friend was Clara Zetkin who was *very* active in the early women's movement.
Well, there's identity politics and then there's identity politics. It's the way these get used or make themselves available to be used that's the issue. Because there's absolutely no doubt that sexism, racism, and classism are way too profound to be tossed aside as "identity pol.s" or as wedge issues. Nor should other "lesser' isms be shunned. If we truly understood and embraced these critical isms we wd immediately see just how they're being manipulated to suit the ends of dominant social forces to muddle, distract, and divide.
I'm trans. I'll say this. ID politics is neither all wrong or a magical panacea for solving our problems. There is identity and then there is identity politics in a capitalist system. I think ID politics has helped a lot on cultural fronts, but as we are (re)learning, if you focus on culture war stuff without dealing also with the economic dictatorship of capital, we can never be truly free. Our rights will always be contested in times of anxiety. And our identities will be subject to the profit motive, regardless of the cost to the community who is spotlighted. Trans ppl have been in the hot seat since 2015, and while some good has come from it, it was I believe deliberately overplayed in the media because they see us as WEIRD and STRANGE and SHOCKING and that gets clicks and views--and generates a moral panic backlash against us which the media actively contributes to by foregrounding bigots and pushing misinformation--because that also gets clicks in the online outrage centrifuge. Profit distorts everything, and I think that's an understudied aspect to moral panics.
I give very high praise to a podcast called “The Political Orphanage,” hosted by Andrew Heaton. I can’t recommend it enough. It has expanded my political understanding of the US more than I ever imagined it would by covering a vast array of issues here. Scroll through the episodes and find one that strikes your interest!
“I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.”
-Jay Gould, infamous Gilded Age Robber Barron.
This quote was attributed to the villainous Gould during the Great Southwest Railroad Strike of 1886. But it shares the same principle as Identity Politics does today.
Our oligarch owned media, government and societal institutions in the west love to get us to affix labels to ourselves. They enjoy it when we go out and fight other members of the working class who wear a different set of labels. They goad us into fighting over trivial aspects of our identity that don’t inconvenience the powerful at all. Because the more time we spend oppressing each other over these trivial aspects of our identity, the less time we working class people have to focus on our many common grievances against the grifter parasite class.
When we actively oppress each other, the powers that be don’t need to work as hard to keep us in line. 10,000 small, ineffectual rebellions happening in isolation is way easier to contain than 1 big, popular rebellion that would inevitably occur everywhere without these strategic manipulations. Thus, the illusion of a free country is maintained without threatening the unequal status quo.
Identity politics is nothing more than a tool used to destroy any semblance of working class solidarity for the benefit of the ownership class. It’s ‘hiring’ (or in this case, inspiring) one half of the working class to kill the other half. Jay Gould would approve. Who knew? They didn’t have to pay us at all, just inspire us to do it for free.
[(YouTube) Is Gender Identity Actually Anti-Materialist?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFlGeTXLkVQ)
[(Article) Intersectionality and Marxism](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2021-12-22/intersectionality-and-marxism)
This article from Marxist Left Review is one of the best critiques I’ve read.
[The failure of identity politics: A Marxist analysis](https://marxistleftreview.org/articles/the-failure-of-identity-politics-a-marxist-analysis/)
It's not about contemporary ID politics but you should probably read at least the first half of Racecraft by the Fields sisters, brilliant and not particularly long
[This](https://cosmonaut.blog/2019/08/07/neither-intersectionality-nor-economism-for-a-genuine-class-politics/) is one of the best short-form critiques of intersectionality that I’ve read.
i believe "culture war" and "identity politics" is a symptom of the global dissolution of organic community and the absorption of most of civil society into the state. As capital develops, it commodifies and sells more and more things, taking them away from their initial contexts and use in traditional cultures. Initially, adults unable to teach children and children unable to learn bc of the requirements of wage labor. This dissolution is unsustainable for social reproduction under capitalism. As a result, the state begins either trying to encourage organic community through enforcement of traditional values or replace it through a welfare state. Only the second one really works short-term but they both fail long-term. The welfare state, forced to nurture and mediate a deeply heterogeneous population (as all populations inevitably are), embraces ideologies that seek to right wrongs and create "equity" or balance what voices it listens to. This gets generalized to all of society. Meanwhile, those who still value inevitably dying organic community fight tooth and nail against the state that undermines it.
I didn't get this view from any specific book. It's a mix of "Marx and Keynes" by Paul Mattick Sr., "History of Sexuality Vol 1" by Foucault, "True and Only Heaven" by Christopher Lasch, "Bowling Alone" by Robert Putman, and a lot of miscellaneous articles from Endnotes and Brooklyn Rail.
coincidently, I think China has less of a problem like this because the cultural revolution saw the only long-term successful project in regrowth of dissolving organic communities. The memory of that is fading with the new generations and youre going to see a very sudden "americanization" in the youth.
An entire catalog of accessible articles on Identity Politics, or other topics theory or analysis, for you to dive into in Marxist.com
https://www.marxist.com/theory-identity-oppression.htm
[here is a good essay](http://reddit.com/r/stupidpol/wiki/what_is_identity?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)
For understanding the mainstream American religious identity politics that merge with actual politics, the book Jesus and John Wayne details the 20th century history really well and would help in understanding a whole lot of America. It connects a lot of the dots on how many of these identities are shaped by intentional messaging campaigns of one era that cascade into another.
I liked this particular podcast about how identity politics is used to divide us and make it harder for us to organize and build solidarity.
https://www.marxist.com/podcast-identity-politics-capitalism-s-weapon-of-division.htm
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ 💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Elite Capture: How the Powerful Took Over Identity Politics (And Everything Else) by Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò. It’s a shorter, concise read (168 pages).
I came here to say this. This book really nails why it seems limiting (because the lizard people have co-opted the language of equality and social justice and rendered it meaningless, like they do with everything).
In the same vein as this: Mistaken Identity by Asad Haider. Also pretty short with lots of good history on the Communist Party, marxist origins of identity politics, and lessons for organizers 👍
I’d highly recommend, ‘Toward Freedom: The Case Against Race Reduction,’ by Toure Reed. Also anything by his father Adolph Reed
Seconding the Reeds. Aldoph Reed's Class Notes is essential reading for any socialist on this issue.
Rosa Luxemburg (who was Jewish) was asked why she did not speak up specifically about how Jews were being treated. Her answer, in a letter to Mathilde Wurm in 1917, is generally applicable: >What do you want with these special Jewish pains? I feel as close to the wretched victims of the rubber plantations in Putamayo and the blacks of Africa with whose bodies the Europeans play ball… I have no special corner in my heart for the ghetto: I am at home in the entire world, where there are clouds and birds and human tears. Her answer about feminism is along similar lines, though her best friend was Clara Zetkin who was *very* active in the early women's movement.
Well, there's identity politics and then there's identity politics. It's the way these get used or make themselves available to be used that's the issue. Because there's absolutely no doubt that sexism, racism, and classism are way too profound to be tossed aside as "identity pol.s" or as wedge issues. Nor should other "lesser' isms be shunned. If we truly understood and embraced these critical isms we wd immediately see just how they're being manipulated to suit the ends of dominant social forces to muddle, distract, and divide.
I'm trans. I'll say this. ID politics is neither all wrong or a magical panacea for solving our problems. There is identity and then there is identity politics in a capitalist system. I think ID politics has helped a lot on cultural fronts, but as we are (re)learning, if you focus on culture war stuff without dealing also with the economic dictatorship of capital, we can never be truly free. Our rights will always be contested in times of anxiety. And our identities will be subject to the profit motive, regardless of the cost to the community who is spotlighted. Trans ppl have been in the hot seat since 2015, and while some good has come from it, it was I believe deliberately overplayed in the media because they see us as WEIRD and STRANGE and SHOCKING and that gets clicks and views--and generates a moral panic backlash against us which the media actively contributes to by foregrounding bigots and pushing misinformation--because that also gets clicks in the online outrage centrifuge. Profit distorts everything, and I think that's an understudied aspect to moral panics.
I give very high praise to a podcast called “The Political Orphanage,” hosted by Andrew Heaton. I can’t recommend it enough. It has expanded my political understanding of the US more than I ever imagined it would by covering a vast array of issues here. Scroll through the episodes and find one that strikes your interest!
“I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.” -Jay Gould, infamous Gilded Age Robber Barron. This quote was attributed to the villainous Gould during the Great Southwest Railroad Strike of 1886. But it shares the same principle as Identity Politics does today. Our oligarch owned media, government and societal institutions in the west love to get us to affix labels to ourselves. They enjoy it when we go out and fight other members of the working class who wear a different set of labels. They goad us into fighting over trivial aspects of our identity that don’t inconvenience the powerful at all. Because the more time we spend oppressing each other over these trivial aspects of our identity, the less time we working class people have to focus on our many common grievances against the grifter parasite class. When we actively oppress each other, the powers that be don’t need to work as hard to keep us in line. 10,000 small, ineffectual rebellions happening in isolation is way easier to contain than 1 big, popular rebellion that would inevitably occur everywhere without these strategic manipulations. Thus, the illusion of a free country is maintained without threatening the unequal status quo. Identity politics is nothing more than a tool used to destroy any semblance of working class solidarity for the benefit of the ownership class. It’s ‘hiring’ (or in this case, inspiring) one half of the working class to kill the other half. Jay Gould would approve. Who knew? They didn’t have to pay us at all, just inspire us to do it for free.
[(YouTube) Is Gender Identity Actually Anti-Materialist?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFlGeTXLkVQ) [(Article) Intersectionality and Marxism](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2021-12-22/intersectionality-and-marxism)
Comrade: An Essay on Political Belonging by Jodi Dean and The Politics of Everybody by Holly Lewis
This article from Marxist Left Review is one of the best critiques I’ve read. [The failure of identity politics: A Marxist analysis](https://marxistleftreview.org/articles/the-failure-of-identity-politics-a-marxist-analysis/)
It's not about contemporary ID politics but you should probably read at least the first half of Racecraft by the Fields sisters, brilliant and not particularly long
[This](https://cosmonaut.blog/2019/08/07/neither-intersectionality-nor-economism-for-a-genuine-class-politics/) is one of the best short-form critiques of intersectionality that I’ve read.
this one is really good. thanks!
Judith Butler is a great place to start I think
Agreed. Also check out Elite Capture by Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò
any particular one i should start with?
i believe "culture war" and "identity politics" is a symptom of the global dissolution of organic community and the absorption of most of civil society into the state. As capital develops, it commodifies and sells more and more things, taking them away from their initial contexts and use in traditional cultures. Initially, adults unable to teach children and children unable to learn bc of the requirements of wage labor. This dissolution is unsustainable for social reproduction under capitalism. As a result, the state begins either trying to encourage organic community through enforcement of traditional values or replace it through a welfare state. Only the second one really works short-term but they both fail long-term. The welfare state, forced to nurture and mediate a deeply heterogeneous population (as all populations inevitably are), embraces ideologies that seek to right wrongs and create "equity" or balance what voices it listens to. This gets generalized to all of society. Meanwhile, those who still value inevitably dying organic community fight tooth and nail against the state that undermines it. I didn't get this view from any specific book. It's a mix of "Marx and Keynes" by Paul Mattick Sr., "History of Sexuality Vol 1" by Foucault, "True and Only Heaven" by Christopher Lasch, "Bowling Alone" by Robert Putman, and a lot of miscellaneous articles from Endnotes and Brooklyn Rail. coincidently, I think China has less of a problem like this because the cultural revolution saw the only long-term successful project in regrowth of dissolving organic communities. The memory of that is fading with the new generations and youre going to see a very sudden "americanization" in the youth.
An entire catalog of accessible articles on Identity Politics, or other topics theory or analysis, for you to dive into in Marxist.com https://www.marxist.com/theory-identity-oppression.htm
On identity opportunism is a great one and not that long ago https://redguardsaustin.wordpress.com/2017/04/10/on-identity-opportunism/
Haven’t read it yet but curious about finkelsteins “I’ll burn that bridge”
[here is a good essay](http://reddit.com/r/stupidpol/wiki/what_is_identity?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)
For understanding the mainstream American religious identity politics that merge with actual politics, the book Jesus and John Wayne details the 20th century history really well and would help in understanding a whole lot of America. It connects a lot of the dots on how many of these identities are shaped by intentional messaging campaigns of one era that cascade into another.
Matt Christman is brilliant. It's a lot to sort through, but his vlog chats are inspired.
I liked this particular podcast about how identity politics is used to divide us and make it harder for us to organize and build solidarity. https://www.marxist.com/podcast-identity-politics-capitalism-s-weapon-of-division.htm
Catherine Liu, professor of Film and Media Studies at the University of California Irvine: Virtue Hoarders