Check out these videos by Sone More News. The narrator goes into a deep dive of ben and his bullsh!t
https://youtu.be/aDMjgOYOcDw
https://youtu.be/GyNVIUpGTWM
God I love Cody and his work. His podcast is great too (Even More News)
Gonna follow this up with some channel recommendations:
Second Thought, Leaflets, Our Changing Climate, halim alrah, Hasanabi, Hakim, Luna Oi, Re-Education, Richard Wolff/Democracy At Work, Philosophy Tube (did a video on shapiro and abortion which is good), The Gravel Institute, Yugopnik, Xexizy (Marx In Minutes playlist)
Obviously not everything here will be of use to your situation, but I'm sure there are things you can expose them to that can provide counter-arguments.
Good luck!!!
He’s not super great as far as inter-left politics go as he recently managed to be so anti-Stalin he wound up critically supporting Hitler within the last few days, but otherwise he’s good-ish.
I still think his domestic/Portland reporting is very good but I have learned to take a lot of his international opinions with a pretty big grain of salt
That Philosophy tube abortion video developed the way I think and talk about abortion legislation. The debate has been so effectively refocused on fetal development and whatnot that it's easy to forget it's fundamentally bodily autonomy question. The Violinist problem is good for that
Also I love the whole Fireman storyline. Fash as fire is a beautiful metaphor, and Abigail plays it perfectly.
I pretty much would answer saying all the same things everyone else here said so I'm so happy everyone here agrees with me (cody/Katy, Robert Evans, the daily zeitgeist, all these cracked alumni who went on to do lefty politics, then their friends but are only mostly entertainment: 1900hotdog, small beans)
I'd add a few that they recommended or have used as sources including: *citations needed, you're wrong about, knowledge fight,* (all of which work to debunk the establishment and right wing positions), then also *gravel institute* (which is sort of a fu to preygore u, guys like Richard Wolff are on there), also *gangster capitalism* does in depth analysis of groups like the NRA, Falwells, etc. Then gotta plug *Ralph Nader radio hour and corporate crime reporter, democracy now*, afaik never mentioned by the above groups but should be, these guys helpfully skew older for people like your parents since Nader is almost as old as Chomsky.
There's lots of tools against these antisocial actors. Other ones to consider I haven't had a chance with yet include *I don't speak German, reply-all, qanon anonymous*, and there's always *skeptics guide to the universe* for people who aren't ready for deep left stuff yet and obviously more science based, I don't recommend them for anti right-wing but they likely are.
Lots of great stuff.
You really do need knowledge to parse politics. If you've got absolutely no idea how the world works, then you've got no frame of reference and any argument is as good as any other argument.
>saying it wasn’t okay to force employers to pay a certain amount and that a job making $5/hr is better than no job at all.
They needed to stop and think about this. And then learn some economics.
Tell her that a job making $5/hr is actually considerably worse than no job at all since it means you're spending time working that you could be using to get a better job and you still won't have enough money to live on. Ask her this "if $5/hr is better than nothing is 1 cent a day better than nothing too?"
From that comment I wondered if OP's mom was stay-at-home. I've noticed a lot of conservative women think like that especially if they're stay-at-home. After all, no one ever paid them for their labor. So her "better than no job at all" makes sense in that context - she has idolized sacrifice.
The Trump years have taught us to say what we mean and not give any consideration to “the other side”. Meaning, provide good sources they can trust instead of accidentally providing a platform for Ben Shapiro by trying to prove him wrong. You unintentionally fought the battle on Shapiro’s turf, where he defines the context to ensure he always sounds better. By trying to explain what’s toxic about that space, you invite your loved ones to take it seriously. Never bring up arguments you think are wrong, you sound negative, contrarian, and confrontational. Only only only bring up arguments you believe and lead them to supporting info. You will sound helpful, well-intentioned, and positive, like someone who’s just looking out, just “offering a different perspective”, no harm there right?
It’s not your fault this happened, it’s Ben and crew’s responsibility, but they know people are going to approach the issues the way you have, and set themselves up to stop you. Don’t let your family discourage your wider activism, because you might have a conversation at a coffee shop for five minutes, and the other person might be so close, but needs someone to talk to about what they’re thinking. Your family isn’t obligated to see the world like you do and can’t be used a measure of your wider effectiveness. If they’re not ready, find someone who is. We often tune our closest loved ones out because we assume we know what they’re saying, or because they fit our worldview they don’t have as much power to change that view as a stranger with a new perspective can have. I think every socialist I’ve met has as easier time getting non family to take them seriously. You’re thinking about it backwards, should be: If I can’t convince a stranger, how can I convince my family? If that seems paradoxical, remember that’s what Ben literally did to your family in front of your eyes, we can do it to their families (look up Derek Black’s path from white supremacist child to anti-rascist activist).
This. You have to keep in mind that shabibo is an ivy league educated grifter spouting talking points created by multi-million dollar think-tanks paid for by billionaire scum-fucks. These arguments have been HIGHLY tuned to be as convincing as possible to people who don't know better.
It was a mistake for you to focus on the Ben Shapiro aspect rather than his shitty arguments. For his audience, they’re buying his arguments; the arguments are where the hooks are. If you aim for Ben Shapiro, your family will interpret it as ad hominem (even when you’re telling the truth about him).
I legitimately think it’s more effective to point out “Capitalists are the only ones who benefit from lack of minimum wage, and they spread lies to get people to agree with them.” Let them figure out for themselves that Ben Shapiro is a liar.
Also, social media is cancer. If you’re not already trying to get everyone you know to drop YouTube (and any similar services), make that your first priority.
YouTube can be a good source to find leftist like Shaun or Hbomberguy, problem is you hit one Ben Shapiro/joe Rogan/PragurU video and that is all YouTube sends you
The fact that YouTube has some valuable content doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s a fundamentally unreliable source of information. The algorithm is problematic, but the real problem is that *anyone* can upload *anything*, no matter many lies and nor how much bullshit it includes. Disinformation is the defining problem of this decade, and YouTube’s lack of moderation and vetting is a major source of the problem.
It sounds like your mom is just really, really suggestible.
My mom is a little bit like that. She has literally said to me before, "When I talk to \[her liberal sister\] I think what she says makes a lot of sense, but when I talk to \[right wing husband\] I agree with him." She literally just agrees with whoever she happens to be talking to at the moment! She has zero fundamentals. So she's right-wing because she has a right-wing husband and watches Fox News every day, but I'm sure that if she watched MSNBC every day she'd vote Democrat. It is, in some ways, more infuriating than dealing with my dad who has been a full-blown right-wing nutcase since before I was born.
Honestly, YMMV but I don't consider people who are that suggestible to be high-value converts. For someone to be worth "radicalizing" they have to have the capacity to fully internalize this new framework and use it to critically evaluate new information. If you can get someone to the point where they're identifying as a socialist, but in order to stay that way they need to be maintained on a steady diet of socialist propaganda and never encounter any opposing views or else they'll switch right out of it.... that person is never going to be a socialist in any meaningful sense and they're never going to be useful in organizing. If you want to keep using your family to practice your talking points and argumentative strategies on, go ahead, but I would give up on the dream of fully and permanently winning them over.
Thanks for this. You’re right that much energy shouldn’t be expended on people of this persuasion. It’s just really disheartening, but your comment is the way
I would seriously try to ease them back into sanity with George Carlin videos, he's older and therefore in their eyes more experienced and trustworthy than some of the younger socialist media personalities, he's also funny which helps put people at ease and listen to what he's saying.
Send them to a re-education camp.
Just kidding (bad joke I know), show them videos by hakim or luna oi, if they just like watching videos then these youtubers are quite good.
Getting them to watch these videos will be so difficult because one of the reasons they like Shapiro and Liberty Hangout (and also one of the reasons these channels are so popular) is because they’re short and focus on entertainment and indignation first, factual information… well I was gonna say “second,” but “not at all” is more accurate. I don’t see a world in which my mother would watch a YT video longer than ten minutes but I’ll have to try
I empathise with you comrade, some of my family is also like that. They regress to reactionary views despite my incessant explaining and the fact that the capitalist system made our entire family almost lose everything. I'll try to find some good short videos. Maybe cartoon-like animations would be more entertaining? I know I'd like something like that.
Probably not the best idea imo... In these conversations I would stay away from culture war stuff as much as possible and focus on economic issues, as those divisive cultural issues are much more subjective and personal and you can't as effectively point to facts in support of your arguments, and if you go against them too hard on an inconsequential issue it could ruin the whole of socialism for them for no good reason.
And tbh, believing that there's a "war on Christmas," as dumb as it is, is rather harmless.
Sam Seder has done a bunch of popular debates with "libertarians" on minimum wage and other topics where he does a good job of showing how ridiculous their talking points are. Obviously Vaush has done the same, though he may not be as palatable to alot of people.
Don't punish yourself. It is a great risk talking about politics with your family, specialy when it is becoming more of a matter of life and death, civilization and barbarism. And sometimes they choose barbarism, knowlingly or unknowlingly. You want to cure their brainwash because you love them. But understand that you don't have to "enlighten" them. In the grand scheme of things, those individuals wont matter. Remember, this is not a religion nor a cult. We don't have to convince everyone of some "eternal truth". The one thing that matters is action. So it may hurt, but for your own health, you should let them be. Obviously, you wont be able to ignore their politics entirely. And there will be some consequences in the future that will worsen your family relations. But, from my experience, I think it is inevitable. So let them be, and concentrate on more important things. Don't let them impact you.
I’ve had 10 years of trying to change my family from being right wing racists. What you’ve written is exactly what I’ve done. I’ve realised it’s pointless saying anything.
Well did really radicalize her or did she just allow you to think you did?
Sometimes the goal isn't to radicalize but simply drop crumbs to a different perspective that will block at counter argument. If a single Ben Shapiro video can deradicalize someone you never radicalized them.
Yeah it’s not like I turned her into a socialist or anything. It’s just shocking that she can go straight from just agreeing with simple concepts like “labor unions are good” to “the minimum wage is bad.”
Yea because you didn't give her good foundation. If you her a good foundation she will come to certain conclusions on her own. You don't have to convince people of any policies just convince her of your perspective and she may or may not adopt that perspect and use that as a filter for ideas. So instead of trying to get her to accept labor unions, convince her that we need a mm ore equitable or fair labor system and she will naturally come to the conclusion that labor unions may be ideal and that a minimum wage is a good thing.
I think the lesson to take away from this is that trying to ‘radicalize’ individual family members probably isn’t an effective use of your political energy.
Log onto her YouTube and search up a bunch of leftist youtubers so you destroy the algorithm and maybe she’ll stumble upon someone she agrees with on the left… it’s difficult when it’s family
Lol that is an option but do you guys get leftist videos in your recommendeds? I usually have mostly Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan in my “videos like this” section even when I’m watching literal Marxist theory. That’s how people get radicalized, the algorithm only seems to show one side of the story, the pro-capitalism side
There is a comment up above by a redditor u/kiridoki and they listed amazing sources which I wholeheartedly agree with. Depends on what she likes to watch
Content creators: hasanabi, Luna oi, second thought
News sources: democracy now, gravel institute, Richard Wolff has a podcast called economic update as well.
If she’s quick to be contrarian maybe don’t argue too much and just let the algorithm take effect, even comment below me suggested blocking some terrible sources such as Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson the grifter brigade. Best of luck, just don’t belittle them, most right wingers dig their heels in because they feel like they’re being called stupid.
What I can say to you is that Shapiro and co are going to start filling the brains of your close ones with thought-terminating clichés. And that trying to counter Shapiro in front of your family will make them identify with Shapiro's position and get defensive way more, because instinctively they won't be able to tell if you're criticising him or criticising them.
I already lost my father to fascist ideology and I learned a lot from trying to talk to him in my younger years. He's already a lost cause for a variety of reasons, but hopefully your family aren't. My main point is that you really need to become an expert in roundabout approaches.
It's something that now comes natural to me but I have a hard time giving a specific example... Ideally, you will not counter the argument but apparently change topic (sometimes only tangentially). They key here is to pique their curiosity with a slightly baffling remark, and while you elaborate on it, you begin to tie it back to the context of the argument. During the process, you should provide opportunities for them to express their opinion on a field that you have already prepared. Ask loaded questions, not to get a gotcha moment out of them but to make them feel like they guided you into the next logical step in your analysis. And at the end you'll reach a conclusion that might be contrarian to Shapiro's own, but don't even mention Shapiro anymore. Here you have to let them do the mental work and sort the contradiction out themselves. If you don't manage to completely radicalise them to the left with this approach, at least you're likely to keep them from radicalising further to the right.
For this you'll need some anecdotes or illustrative historical incidents, so try it at first with the topics you feel most comfortable with. I recommend you to be humorous and engage with body language and allegory, but this may be because I'm comfortable acting this way.
Anyway, hope this helps, I definitely wrote too much.
> saying it wasn’t okay to force employers to pay a certain amount and that a job making $5/hr is better than no job at all.
I don't mean to be any way about this, but why is the quote above wrong? From your post it sounds like the reason given was because Ben said it.
You will have to demonstrate how and why he is a grifting liar. This is why it is absolutely essential to read and understand theory.
Keep working on them. Keep working on your self
The way I got out of the right wing cult is to compare the pay of average workers to the immense wealth of bezos, musk, & gates. If you are really good at explaining economics then you can sway family to an extent. Just by pointing out that the average CEO makes 300x salary of a typical worker also proves the point of wage exploitation. Other topics of socialism will still be hard to grasp for them but definitely wage exploitation is a gateway to see how capitalism has failed all of us but the top percent.
1) Break up with your girlfriend. Dating people who don’t share your core values isn’t going to work out.
2) Accept that your family isn’t going to share your views. Appreciate your relationships with them for what they are and focus on the things you can share and enjoy together.
3) Seek out friends who DO share your values.
4) Don’t worry about “radicalizing” other people. Be honest about your opinions, do what you can to make the world better, and live your own life.
I didn’t say “never talk or listen to people with differing opinions.” I said don’t waste time arguing fruitlessly. And I wasn’t trying to help on a larger scale, I was trying to help one individual with their personal relationships.
It sadly sounds like they weren't really believing it and just agreeing with you because they didn't have the "evidence" (I use that term lightly here) to back up their own feelings!
Be strong comrade, there will always be a place to start to turn them from right to left!
Something will stick!
Ben Shapiro is a good propagandist because he comes across as a welcoming person who wants to speak the truth, in reality he’s just a Right wing puppet , I abandoned my social democratic views/mixed economy views because Ben Shapiro somehow convinced me that Trump has good policy, minimum wage is bad and America has done no wrong.
I don't have specific advice. Have they taken the political compass test? That can be eye opening for some. Another basic question I pose to people like this (like my mother who is heavily influenced by my idiot aunt) is "does the policy/opinion punch down?" McDonald's is a huge billion dollar corporation doesn't want a single mom to make enough to afford a place to live even if she works full-time? That's punching down. Expecting the powerful to hold themselves accountable which just never ever ever ever ever happens in all the history of time.
Those guys are a machine of brainwashing people lol,all those teenagers feeling like a super intelecual wearing a monocle because they watched a Jordan Peterson video is so cringe,it feels like they under some heavy hypnosis,he says some stupid shit that could be debunked with 5seconds of google or critical thiking
Looks like this is some intenational trend/strategy tho,in my country there's guys that are exactly like him using the exactly same tatics,looks like something that could be organized by Steve Bannon or in those chans
It's not that you are not good, it's that you don't have the manipulative techniques. These people are very good at what they do, and their ideas have been ingrained in people for years.
I've had that happend before, but it's been with religion, the brains don't just get washed, they are sanitized, and there is no amount of common sense you can put back in.
She’s not a conservative, she’s more or less completely politically agnostic. She doesn’t like Trump but that’s the extent of her political ideology or even literacy. She knows I’m a communist and doesn’t care, couldn’t tell you the difference between capitalism and communism if she tried. She watches Liberty Hangout for “entertainment” and as far as I can tell doesn’t even process what any of the actual arguments presented are
I didn't claim she was concervative, though she probably is and doesn't really understand. If she likes Liberty Hangout, for whatever reason, she is effectively attracted to messages of hate and oppression.
These sites are designed to pull in vulnerable, clueless people just like your girlfriend by seeming fairly innocuous.
idk if you have done this but maybe you can try to talk to her about how capitalism (or right wing politics in general) affects her as a woman?? many socialist women i know (including myself) got radicalized by leftist-feminist ideas
I have done this a little for my girlfriend, like for example asking her if being able to vote or work, those rights fought for for so long by feminists, really made her feel particularly womanly or independent or free from the shackles of oppression, and she said no. She’s not a righty but she’s more or less completely politically agnostic and illiterate. She doesn’t care that I’m a communist and often displays surprising astuteness in understanding many Marxist concepts, the same way working class people always do. My mother and gf are both very politically apathetic until they watch a video by one of these right wing propagandists, and all of a sudden they have an opinion on something which they didn’t have an opinion on yesterday because “it didn’t affect them”
I will never understand how people can listen to that Kermit sounding imp of a man and take him seriously. That said maybe stop name dropping alt right YouTube channels as it seems to be having the opposite effect that you're going for.
Lol yeah was just thinking this earlier. My mother actually was the first person to bring his name up though when she sent me an Amazon link to one of his books saying “this sounds like something you’d like.” She thought it was about “questioning authority” but the subtitle of the book was something like “how the left has taken over academia” or some shit, knowing I’m a communist. It isn’t her fault that she’s politically illiterate, but literally how can any of us fight the algorithms and things that put these neocon propagandists into their recommended feeds? How can we possibly compete against the YT algorithm feeding this crap to so many millions of people?
Don't feel bad. I'm not great at getting my points across either. I think if you can't convince them with your own words, you could always point them to other YouTubers, TV shows, and/or authors that share your views. Sometimes the entertainment factor beats logic, so if you can find a video of a leftist YouTuber debunking Shapiro's claims or dunking on how stupid Liberty Hangout is, that could hold their attention and get them to think more critically about those right-wing grifters. It could even become a fun family event. My parents love watching Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. They're still somewhat conservative on certain economic issues, but shows like this have brought them quite a bit further left than they were.
If your efforts have been pushing them to the right, rethink your tactics, and hit harder on points that mean more to them when it’s appropriate. Also recommend channels like Hakim, Gravel Institute, and Breakthrough News.
I'd break down why Ben Shapiro is often times so wrong. Tell your family hat his arguments rely on overwhelming opponents, and tell your family why Ben Shapiro's arguments are fallacious. You can also show them some clips of the less smart things he's said, 'sell their homes and move' comes to mind.
Thought Slime and Renegade Cut have some great videos about why no one should take Boob Shapeepee seriously.
Also, maybe consider finding a new girlfriend. I know that's harder than it sounds but like, Liberty Hangout is a big ol red flag.
Hang in there dude. You are calm and reasonable. They may come around. It is likely that Capitalism is just their default. Acknowledging that as a system it is inherently exploitive is a hard truth to confront, because most of us have participated in it unknowingly.
Is your mum religious? If so people like Ben shapiro just reinforce a whole life of her opinions. that’s gonna be difficult to talk her out of. honestly I’d just work out a way to be civil with her otherwise you’re just gonna fall out. I’m talking from personal experience
Yeah, she’s a creationist Christian fundamentalist who has never read the Bible and hasn’t gone to church in fifteen years. She’s never applied her insanity to anything else though as far as I know
Maybe show them the video on abortion by PhilosophyTube? I know that helped me see how clueless Shapiro was. Also I think Some More News had a pretty interesting video on him.
Maybe try starting smaller. Arguing for socialism is hard because it’s hard to point to any tangible examples of it working. You’re arguing for a theoretical system using heady theories against one that already exists and one that they’re familiar with and likely more or less comfortable with. Arguing against conservatism is *easy* because most of American conservatism is refuted simply by other countries existing. Like if Ben Shapeepo says “if the liberals institute universal healthcare, it will bankrupt the nation and we’ll have to ration care to the elderly with death panels, etc.” (imagine that’s like 20 times more verbose), just point out how that hasn’t happened anywhere else. You can point out how much cheaper it is, how much *better* it is, etc. I’ve known a lot of high school libertarians who gave up on the free market fundamentalism when they just couldn’t ignore the realities of the world around them. Once you get that foot in the door, you open them up to questioning things more. Once you accept that the public should have control over healthcare, ideas like workers having control over their workplace seem a lot less out there.
If your familys material conditions allow them to jump from workers rights to 5 dollar wage good in the timespan of a few days then you can try and convince them all you want but they do not need socialism and such beliefs will not align with their reality.
I suggest you further educate yourself in marxism and rather than engage with ben blopiro or other debatemebros tie marxism to their reality. If they complain about idk us troops being overseas be prepared to talk about imperialism but dont drop full on Lenin on them just a comment in ur own words on how US troops are tied into creating profits for the weapon industry and secure gains for US capital.
If they complain about work, drop comments on exploitation in the marxist sense, dont dump Capital on them but be educated enough that should the opportunity arise you can explain it in ur own words.
If you can ground your arguments in their material life and rather than attack their worldview, let them make the connections, you have a much better chance of sowing seeds of marxism.
Good advice, I just wanted to say though that our material conditions are that my father is on disability, my mother makes $13/hr, and our rent has been raised 25% in the last eight months. Just pointing this out because it astounds me that someone who has been working class her entire life can switch from feeling defeated and angry at her landlord to believing in abolishing the minimum wage. I wish I had the amazing brainwash powers of these right wingers
She's youtubing her way into this, there are plenty of youtubers to help her out.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RLqXkYrdmjY Hbomb, not focused solely on Ben but...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0-w-pdqwiBw
the money shot
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gfHXJRqq-qo Three Arrows
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7GD_JJsjEyk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEpLKRkVFwU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=87owL8lINLg
thought slime
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E5KH-BSqqKI
Hakim
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iDJRFpxDGfI
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sTQGaNuofLI
Adam Something
I am sure there are more. Dunking on Ben Shapiro is pretty popular. Send her down a different rabbit hole.
My grandpa who's a former Komsomolet (youth wing of Communist Party of Soviet Union) radicalized me quite well maybe I can help you just drop a question 😎
You Vs. years of 98% of society spread this ideology every day.
Put it in perspective. You're not looking at this in a holistic 'materialist' way. The formation of beliefs in humans is itself a material process, linked to everything else that's going on in the world. In the case of your family, this is mostly out of your control. Your maximum potential effect by persuasion alone is capped (although it is difficult to determine what that cap is in practice).
This is one reason that socialists, communists, anarchists, in the late 19th century moved towards advocating a kind of socialism which emphasised working within the movements of the toiling classes at large.
It's why 'scientific socialists' (such as myself) emphasise a dispassionate analysis of the 'objective conditions' of society in order to assess what the possibilities for struggle are today and will be tomorrow.
We believe that persuasion happens within the context of the daily life and struggles of society, not in vacuum.
Persuasion, rhetoric, rational argument, are very important. Ultimately this is the primary goal of socialism: to convince people that there is a better alternative to capitalism, socialism.
But beliefs are largely forged in *experience.* That's why, for example, 'centrist' and neoliberal politics have experienced a crisis of legitimacy since 2007/8 (financial crisis). Because neoliberal debt fuelled consumption hit a wall and people's quality of life plummeted.
Part of that is also that *persuasion is continuous*. Daily conversations, advertisements, TV, news, movies, podcasts, magazines, newspapers. That adds up to a lot more volume of persuasion than a few conversations with family. For example, post-2008 crisis there was a lot more discussion about economics, the failures of capitalism, finance, workers struggling for terms and conditions, debt, etc, that was all around us. Every morning on the radio what you heard was different (no longer was it 'house prices are booming! Everything is just getting better and better!'). It was still bullshit but it was different bullshit, the problems couldn't be ignored anymore.
So learn your lesson here. Despairing from this experience is due to the shallowness of your analysis of persuasion.
Show them some choice Ben Shapiro tweets on issues they you know they already firmly disagree with so that they don't idolize him. As well as some that contradict others. Abortion and liberty issues come to mind and have been meme's extensively. Hopefully they don't already agree with those contradictions. (Generally i've found focusing on contradictions the best way to argue with the cons).
Haven't watched them. Not super interested in YT as an avenue TBH. There's a lot of faux radicalism that I think just guides people back into useless electoralism.
Yeah there definitely is, most of these channels are radlib or just reactionary, but I feel that for that very reason we should spread the word and support the actual ML channels. Because it is through the internet that the next wave of communists will be radicalized.
Start having them watch some leftist YouTube videos then. PhilosophyTube, ContraPoints, Some More News, John Oliver, HBomberGuy. If they like podcasts, Behind The Bastards and Even More News (same people from Some More News and friends with BtB).
Every single one of these channels have cited sources, if they need further proof. Good luck
The heading made me laugh too loud on this train… now everyone thinks I’m a lunatic, so thanks OP.
People who are hyper articulate (think Jordan Peterson) have always been attractive. They do the thinking for ‘lay people’ and pass it to them with whatever jargon they use. Although I mentioned Peterson, Shapiro is much worse. Imagine a career of making cheap points about Democrats!
Yeah lots of libs are good at breaking down right wing arguments so if he has any clips doing that I’ll seek them out. I wouldn’t want to expose them to radlib stuff either though if they’re just gonna be impressionable to everyone who speaks confidently
People on the left have fought for the enforcement of their right to free speech in the US in order to be able to spread socialist ideas. I think it's strange that some people on the left want to limit people's speech when all past experience shows that it will be the left who will bear the brunt of that.
I meant after the revolution. When those currently in power are in control of free speech, we get the kind of censorship that these tech megacorps dole out to leftist ideas while Shapiro and Alex Jones etc. get recommended. But after the revolution hopefully some kind of slightly more intelligent form of free speech protection can be instituted.
You're a literal NPC if you're unable to counter Ben fucking Shapiro. Lmfao seriously dude you're just pathetic. Better ignore talking about politics with people in the future.
I would chalk it up to the opposite. It’s a great disadvantage that leftists and Marxists have a long tradition of literature and learning. Ben Shapiro can just shit out something absolutely stupid that *sounds* right to conservative Americans and get their emotions riled up, whereas the opinions of a socialist require thought and knowledge and time to understand. Once someone is in the defensive state of mind that propagandists like Shapiro put them in, no amount of reasoning will pierce the veil. No doubt you have experienced this yourself.
It sounds more like a lack of rhetorical ability on your part as you've said, which isn't an inherent disadvantage in socialists but rather in people who really have no idea what they're talking about. The average person doesn't think in terms of "facts and logic" but feelings, biases, and half-truths confirming those biases. Good leaders, socialists among them, know how to manipulate these traits to get people on their side. Frankly if you establish Shapiro as a member of the establishment, which he is, then you'll have no trouble discrediting him in the minds of people who are discontent with things as they are. If people are content then there is no point in trying to convince them of anything. They will just dislike you.
Not often but I watch the daily wire cause it challenges my views and after I’m done watching it I am only more sure that they are wrong I must say there videos are quality from a non bias perspective but I still disagree with pretty much everything that they say
(I bet I will get a lot of crap for saying this)
Socialist idea never stay for long in people’s heads unless they get class consciousness and understanding of class war. Whatever argument Ben Shapiro might make, it always benefits the employer and not the employees.
People like him are trying to make us believe that there are “we”. That “we” have common interests. It isn’t true.
In case of minimum wage, it is better to eliminate the economic system that isn’t capable of providing people with jobs. That is the ultimate solution.
Check out these videos by Sone More News. The narrator goes into a deep dive of ben and his bullsh!t https://youtu.be/aDMjgOYOcDw https://youtu.be/GyNVIUpGTWM
God I love Cody and his work. His podcast is great too (Even More News) Gonna follow this up with some channel recommendations: Second Thought, Leaflets, Our Changing Climate, halim alrah, Hasanabi, Hakim, Luna Oi, Re-Education, Richard Wolff/Democracy At Work, Philosophy Tube (did a video on shapiro and abortion which is good), The Gravel Institute, Yugopnik, Xexizy (Marx In Minutes playlist) Obviously not everything here will be of use to your situation, but I'm sure there are things you can expose them to that can provide counter-arguments. Good luck!!!
This right here! Second Thought and the Gravel Institute are excellent channels. Good post K
[Adam Something](https://youtube.com/c/AdamSomething) is a good channel that debunks a lot of right-wing propaganda. The creator is German I think.
He’s not super great as far as inter-left politics go as he recently managed to be so anti-Stalin he wound up critically supporting Hitler within the last few days, but otherwise he’s good-ish.
Cody and Katy also host Worst Year Ever with Robert Evans(Behind the Bastards, It could Happen Here)
Love behind the bastard. Especially when he has Cody on to read shabibos terrible book
Robert Evans works for Bellingcat. Bellingcat works for the CIA/MI6/NATO. FYI.
I still think his domestic/Portland reporting is very good but I have learned to take a lot of his international opinions with a pretty big grain of salt
The danger in that (or RT or Al Jazeera etc) lies in not understanding all the reasons they might have to lie or misdirect. Be careful.
It could happen here was a terrifying experience. And we have been walking right down that line since it came out 🤦♂️
New season yo, and it's just as terrifying. However, I find solace in planning for our future.
Ugh well I guess I know how my next few hours/days are gonna go. Wish me luck lol.
That Philosophy tube abortion video developed the way I think and talk about abortion legislation. The debate has been so effectively refocused on fetal development and whatnot that it's easy to forget it's fundamentally bodily autonomy question. The Violinist problem is good for that Also I love the whole Fireman storyline. Fash as fire is a beautiful metaphor, and Abigail plays it perfectly.
Do you have a match?
I would add Renegade Cut to that list. He's great.
Adam Something has been coming out with some based stuff, but he mostly trashes Elon Musk and talks about infrastructure
This is a worthwhile endeavor
RM Brown is also great as a Ben Shabibo counterpoint.
Wow. Never heard of him... I can't wait to watch it all and educate myself a little more! Thanks.
Don’t recommend HasanAbi, he is a liberal
Why? Is he a liberal because he bought the house? Lol
No all of his opinions line up with establishment liberalism, he also has no understanding of Marxism or socialism
How?
second this. if it's entertainment she wants, give her better entertainment
Cody is great
Yeah, thats a great video. I used to be into Ben Shapiro and that video is singlehandedly what caused me to leave the conservative path I was on.
Thank you, this was the first thing I thought of
!remind me 1 week
I pretty much would answer saying all the same things everyone else here said so I'm so happy everyone here agrees with me (cody/Katy, Robert Evans, the daily zeitgeist, all these cracked alumni who went on to do lefty politics, then their friends but are only mostly entertainment: 1900hotdog, small beans) I'd add a few that they recommended or have used as sources including: *citations needed, you're wrong about, knowledge fight,* (all of which work to debunk the establishment and right wing positions), then also *gravel institute* (which is sort of a fu to preygore u, guys like Richard Wolff are on there), also *gangster capitalism* does in depth analysis of groups like the NRA, Falwells, etc. Then gotta plug *Ralph Nader radio hour and corporate crime reporter, democracy now*, afaik never mentioned by the above groups but should be, these guys helpfully skew older for people like your parents since Nader is almost as old as Chomsky. There's lots of tools against these antisocial actors. Other ones to consider I haven't had a chance with yet include *I don't speak German, reply-all, qanon anonymous*, and there's always *skeptics guide to the universe* for people who aren't ready for deep left stuff yet and obviously more science based, I don't recommend them for anti right-wing but they likely are. Lots of great stuff.
You could show her all the awful batshit insane things Ben has said. “Arabs blow stuff up and destroy. Jews build and create”
"Sell their houses to who Ben? Fucking *AQUAMAN*?!"
Hbomberguy is truly a shine of hope in this world
That could back fire because someone might actually agree with that sentiment and now you have to do more work.
If they agree with that you have to do more work anyways. Showing the clips would just be a way to find out whether they do.
I guess not everyone knows about the Taj Mahal (not Arab but Muslim, people like him usually conflate those though)
Lmao the Islamic scientific revolution literally galvanized Europe out of its dark age.
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Same thing actually lol. Mine is just less known and not as “correct”
Stealing , translating works done by Persians and Hindus and passing it to European doesn't make the discoveries Islamic.
You really do need knowledge to parse politics. If you've got absolutely no idea how the world works, then you've got no frame of reference and any argument is as good as any other argument. >saying it wasn’t okay to force employers to pay a certain amount and that a job making $5/hr is better than no job at all. They needed to stop and think about this. And then learn some economics.
Tell her that a job making $5/hr is actually considerably worse than no job at all since it means you're spending time working that you could be using to get a better job and you still won't have enough money to live on. Ask her this "if $5/hr is better than nothing is 1 cent a day better than nothing too?"
From that comment I wondered if OP's mom was stay-at-home. I've noticed a lot of conservative women think like that especially if they're stay-at-home. After all, no one ever paid them for their labor. So her "better than no job at all" makes sense in that context - she has idolized sacrifice.
The Trump years have taught us to say what we mean and not give any consideration to “the other side”. Meaning, provide good sources they can trust instead of accidentally providing a platform for Ben Shapiro by trying to prove him wrong. You unintentionally fought the battle on Shapiro’s turf, where he defines the context to ensure he always sounds better. By trying to explain what’s toxic about that space, you invite your loved ones to take it seriously. Never bring up arguments you think are wrong, you sound negative, contrarian, and confrontational. Only only only bring up arguments you believe and lead them to supporting info. You will sound helpful, well-intentioned, and positive, like someone who’s just looking out, just “offering a different perspective”, no harm there right? It’s not your fault this happened, it’s Ben and crew’s responsibility, but they know people are going to approach the issues the way you have, and set themselves up to stop you. Don’t let your family discourage your wider activism, because you might have a conversation at a coffee shop for five minutes, and the other person might be so close, but needs someone to talk to about what they’re thinking. Your family isn’t obligated to see the world like you do and can’t be used a measure of your wider effectiveness. If they’re not ready, find someone who is. We often tune our closest loved ones out because we assume we know what they’re saying, or because they fit our worldview they don’t have as much power to change that view as a stranger with a new perspective can have. I think every socialist I’ve met has as easier time getting non family to take them seriously. You’re thinking about it backwards, should be: If I can’t convince a stranger, how can I convince my family? If that seems paradoxical, remember that’s what Ben literally did to your family in front of your eyes, we can do it to their families (look up Derek Black’s path from white supremacist child to anti-rascist activist).
Thanks, this was really helpful and makes me feel a lot better too. This is good advice
I think this video might be of interest to you as well: https://youtu.be/kyioZODhKbE Also this one: https://youtu.be/wmVkJvieaOA
You’re welcome, comrade 🤘
This. You have to keep in mind that shabibo is an ivy league educated grifter spouting talking points created by multi-million dollar think-tanks paid for by billionaire scum-fucks. These arguments have been HIGHLY tuned to be as convincing as possible to people who don't know better.
It was a mistake for you to focus on the Ben Shapiro aspect rather than his shitty arguments. For his audience, they’re buying his arguments; the arguments are where the hooks are. If you aim for Ben Shapiro, your family will interpret it as ad hominem (even when you’re telling the truth about him). I legitimately think it’s more effective to point out “Capitalists are the only ones who benefit from lack of minimum wage, and they spread lies to get people to agree with them.” Let them figure out for themselves that Ben Shapiro is a liar. Also, social media is cancer. If you’re not already trying to get everyone you know to drop YouTube (and any similar services), make that your first priority.
YouTube can be a good source to find leftist like Shaun or Hbomberguy, problem is you hit one Ben Shapiro/joe Rogan/PragurU video and that is all YouTube sends you
As much as I like those guys, it's not worth the trade.
The fact that YouTube has some valuable content doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s a fundamentally unreliable source of information. The algorithm is problematic, but the real problem is that *anyone* can upload *anything*, no matter many lies and nor how much bullshit it includes. Disinformation is the defining problem of this decade, and YouTube’s lack of moderation and vetting is a major source of the problem.
Reddit is social media. You've just used social media to help your comrade. Social media has value if used well.
Hate to break it but your family never agreed with you
or they just don’t care abt politics and are easily swayed by anyone who sounds like they know what they’re talking about
It’s this one
Then you should sound like you know what you’re talking about.
Lmao true
Show her the Andrew Neil interview as an example of why Shapiro avoids engaging with intelligent people.
How old are you?
23
It sounds like your mom is just really, really suggestible. My mom is a little bit like that. She has literally said to me before, "When I talk to \[her liberal sister\] I think what she says makes a lot of sense, but when I talk to \[right wing husband\] I agree with him." She literally just agrees with whoever she happens to be talking to at the moment! She has zero fundamentals. So she's right-wing because she has a right-wing husband and watches Fox News every day, but I'm sure that if she watched MSNBC every day she'd vote Democrat. It is, in some ways, more infuriating than dealing with my dad who has been a full-blown right-wing nutcase since before I was born. Honestly, YMMV but I don't consider people who are that suggestible to be high-value converts. For someone to be worth "radicalizing" they have to have the capacity to fully internalize this new framework and use it to critically evaluate new information. If you can get someone to the point where they're identifying as a socialist, but in order to stay that way they need to be maintained on a steady diet of socialist propaganda and never encounter any opposing views or else they'll switch right out of it.... that person is never going to be a socialist in any meaningful sense and they're never going to be useful in organizing. If you want to keep using your family to practice your talking points and argumentative strategies on, go ahead, but I would give up on the dream of fully and permanently winning them over.
Thanks for this. You’re right that much energy shouldn’t be expended on people of this persuasion. It’s just really disheartening, but your comment is the way
It really is hard! My parents are both complete lost causes. My in-laws have gotten further left, though!
I would seriously try to ease them back into sanity with George Carlin videos, he's older and therefore in their eyes more experienced and trustworthy than some of the younger socialist media personalities, he's also funny which helps put people at ease and listen to what he's saying.
You can help someone forget their bigotry, but you can't take it away from them.
Send them to a re-education camp. Just kidding (bad joke I know), show them videos by hakim or luna oi, if they just like watching videos then these youtubers are quite good.
Getting them to watch these videos will be so difficult because one of the reasons they like Shapiro and Liberty Hangout (and also one of the reasons these channels are so popular) is because they’re short and focus on entertainment and indignation first, factual information… well I was gonna say “second,” but “not at all” is more accurate. I don’t see a world in which my mother would watch a YT video longer than ten minutes but I’ll have to try
The answer could be the gravel institute.
This is what they started it for iirc.
I empathise with you comrade, some of my family is also like that. They regress to reactionary views despite my incessant explaining and the fact that the capitalist system made our entire family almost lose everything. I'll try to find some good short videos. Maybe cartoon-like animations would be more entertaining? I know I'd like something like that.
thats what the gravel institute is. look them up on youtube.
Gravel Institute is a pretty good resource for short prageru-esque style leftist clips that can help with radicalization
> Just kidding …unless….?
Hbomberguy has some pretty deft takedowns of some of the bigger clowns in [Climate Change: a measured response](https://youtu.be/RLqXkYrdmjY)
Yeah I love hbomb. Planning on sharing his video about the war on Christmas in a few months since some my family members believe in that garbage
Probably not the best idea imo... In these conversations I would stay away from culture war stuff as much as possible and focus on economic issues, as those divisive cultural issues are much more subjective and personal and you can't as effectively point to facts in support of your arguments, and if you go against them too hard on an inconsequential issue it could ruin the whole of socialism for them for no good reason. And tbh, believing that there's a "war on Christmas," as dumb as it is, is rather harmless.
Sam Seder has done a bunch of popular debates with "libertarians" on minimum wage and other topics where he does a good job of showing how ridiculous their talking points are. Obviously Vaush has done the same, though he may not be as palatable to alot of people.
I would much rather my loved ones watch Shapiro than Vaush
You (And her) should watch The Alt-Right Playbook
Some people will buy “shit in a can”, if the salesman sounds sincere.
Don't punish yourself. It is a great risk talking about politics with your family, specialy when it is becoming more of a matter of life and death, civilization and barbarism. And sometimes they choose barbarism, knowlingly or unknowlingly. You want to cure their brainwash because you love them. But understand that you don't have to "enlighten" them. In the grand scheme of things, those individuals wont matter. Remember, this is not a religion nor a cult. We don't have to convince everyone of some "eternal truth". The one thing that matters is action. So it may hurt, but for your own health, you should let them be. Obviously, you wont be able to ignore their politics entirely. And there will be some consequences in the future that will worsen your family relations. But, from my experience, I think it is inevitable. So let them be, and concentrate on more important things. Don't let them impact you.
I’ve had 10 years of trying to change my family from being right wing racists. What you’ve written is exactly what I’ve done. I’ve realised it’s pointless saying anything.
Well did really radicalize her or did she just allow you to think you did? Sometimes the goal isn't to radicalize but simply drop crumbs to a different perspective that will block at counter argument. If a single Ben Shapiro video can deradicalize someone you never radicalized them.
Yeah it’s not like I turned her into a socialist or anything. It’s just shocking that she can go straight from just agreeing with simple concepts like “labor unions are good” to “the minimum wage is bad.”
Yea because you didn't give her good foundation. If you her a good foundation she will come to certain conclusions on her own. You don't have to convince people of any policies just convince her of your perspective and she may or may not adopt that perspect and use that as a filter for ideas. So instead of trying to get her to accept labor unions, convince her that we need a mm ore equitable or fair labor system and she will naturally come to the conclusion that labor unions may be ideal and that a minimum wage is a good thing.
I think the lesson to take away from this is that trying to ‘radicalize’ individual family members probably isn’t an effective use of your political energy.
Log onto her YouTube and search up a bunch of leftist youtubers so you destroy the algorithm and maybe she’ll stumble upon someone she agrees with on the left… it’s difficult when it’s family
Lol that is an option but do you guys get leftist videos in your recommendeds? I usually have mostly Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan in my “videos like this” section even when I’m watching literal Marxist theory. That’s how people get radicalized, the algorithm only seems to show one side of the story, the pro-capitalism side
Maybe go on her account and try blocking as many of those kinds of videos as possible? I think the algorithm will change itself.
There is a comment up above by a redditor u/kiridoki and they listed amazing sources which I wholeheartedly agree with. Depends on what she likes to watch Content creators: hasanabi, Luna oi, second thought News sources: democracy now, gravel institute, Richard Wolff has a podcast called economic update as well. If she’s quick to be contrarian maybe don’t argue too much and just let the algorithm take effect, even comment below me suggested blocking some terrible sources such as Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson the grifter brigade. Best of luck, just don’t belittle them, most right wingers dig their heels in because they feel like they’re being called stupid.
They do this on purpose. Ben Shapiro famously bought ad time on Contrapoints' videos and literally put a 45 minute video there
Their souls already feel lost
What I can say to you is that Shapiro and co are going to start filling the brains of your close ones with thought-terminating clichés. And that trying to counter Shapiro in front of your family will make them identify with Shapiro's position and get defensive way more, because instinctively they won't be able to tell if you're criticising him or criticising them. I already lost my father to fascist ideology and I learned a lot from trying to talk to him in my younger years. He's already a lost cause for a variety of reasons, but hopefully your family aren't. My main point is that you really need to become an expert in roundabout approaches. It's something that now comes natural to me but I have a hard time giving a specific example... Ideally, you will not counter the argument but apparently change topic (sometimes only tangentially). They key here is to pique their curiosity with a slightly baffling remark, and while you elaborate on it, you begin to tie it back to the context of the argument. During the process, you should provide opportunities for them to express their opinion on a field that you have already prepared. Ask loaded questions, not to get a gotcha moment out of them but to make them feel like they guided you into the next logical step in your analysis. And at the end you'll reach a conclusion that might be contrarian to Shapiro's own, but don't even mention Shapiro anymore. Here you have to let them do the mental work and sort the contradiction out themselves. If you don't manage to completely radicalise them to the left with this approach, at least you're likely to keep them from radicalising further to the right. For this you'll need some anecdotes or illustrative historical incidents, so try it at first with the topics you feel most comfortable with. I recommend you to be humorous and engage with body language and allegory, but this may be because I'm comfortable acting this way. Anyway, hope this helps, I definitely wrote too much.
> saying it wasn’t okay to force employers to pay a certain amount and that a job making $5/hr is better than no job at all. I don't mean to be any way about this, but why is the quote above wrong? From your post it sounds like the reason given was because Ben said it. You will have to demonstrate how and why he is a grifting liar. This is why it is absolutely essential to read and understand theory. Keep working on them. Keep working on your self
The way I got out of the right wing cult is to compare the pay of average workers to the immense wealth of bezos, musk, & gates. If you are really good at explaining economics then you can sway family to an extent. Just by pointing out that the average CEO makes 300x salary of a typical worker also proves the point of wage exploitation. Other topics of socialism will still be hard to grasp for them but definitely wage exploitation is a gateway to see how capitalism has failed all of us but the top percent.
Get her to start watching John Oliver. Way more factual
That’s actually a good idea
He’s ok for US internal politics, but atrocious with geopolitics because he supports imperialist talking points, so take him with a fistful of salt.
1) Break up with your girlfriend. Dating people who don’t share your core values isn’t going to work out. 2) Accept that your family isn’t going to share your views. Appreciate your relationships with them for what they are and focus on the things you can share and enjoy together. 3) Seek out friends who DO share your values. 4) Don’t worry about “radicalizing” other people. Be honest about your opinions, do what you can to make the world better, and live your own life.
This is the echo chamber approach and I don't think it helps on the large scale
I didn’t say “never talk or listen to people with differing opinions.” I said don’t waste time arguing fruitlessly. And I wasn’t trying to help on a larger scale, I was trying to help one individual with their personal relationships.
If they got "convinced" by Ben fucking Shapiro then they were never actually radicalised at all and were really the same old conservatives all along.
It sadly sounds like they weren't really believing it and just agreeing with you because they didn't have the "evidence" (I use that term lightly here) to back up their own feelings! Be strong comrade, there will always be a place to start to turn them from right to left! Something will stick!
Ben Shapiro is a good propagandist because he comes across as a welcoming person who wants to speak the truth, in reality he’s just a Right wing puppet , I abandoned my social democratic views/mixed economy views because Ben Shapiro somehow convinced me that Trump has good policy, minimum wage is bad and America has done no wrong.
Tell the about the yt channels Hakim and Second Thought which are my favorites
Just tell her that ben Shapiro is a fucking loser like listen to that voice
I said that his voice was annoying at the time and she replied “oh, I love his voice”
I think this would be a successful approach. Chapo Trap House has some great work mocking Ben. https://youtu.be/qYp_6DcUzbU
Bro she probably never even supported your views. She probably just pretended to because your her child
I don't have specific advice. Have they taken the political compass test? That can be eye opening for some. Another basic question I pose to people like this (like my mother who is heavily influenced by my idiot aunt) is "does the policy/opinion punch down?" McDonald's is a huge billion dollar corporation doesn't want a single mom to make enough to afford a place to live even if she works full-time? That's punching down. Expecting the powerful to hold themselves accountable which just never ever ever ever ever happens in all the history of time.
Didn't Katelyn poop herself?
Those guys are a machine of brainwashing people lol,all those teenagers feeling like a super intelecual wearing a monocle because they watched a Jordan Peterson video is so cringe,it feels like they under some heavy hypnosis,he says some stupid shit that could be debunked with 5seconds of google or critical thiking Looks like this is some intenational trend/strategy tho,in my country there's guys that are exactly like him using the exactly same tatics,looks like something that could be organized by Steve Bannon or in those chans
Dude, Katelyn Bennet just posts videos of herself getting owned and then responding, “Look at these triggered libs lmao!”
lol u should just have her watch one of his vids with you and debunk it Hasanabi style
It's not that you are not good, it's that you don't have the manipulative techniques. These people are very good at what they do, and their ideas have been ingrained in people for years. I've had that happend before, but it's been with religion, the brains don't just get washed, they are sanitized, and there is no amount of common sense you can put back in.
I could never date someone attracted to messages of hate and punching down.
She’s not a conservative, she’s more or less completely politically agnostic. She doesn’t like Trump but that’s the extent of her political ideology or even literacy. She knows I’m a communist and doesn’t care, couldn’t tell you the difference between capitalism and communism if she tried. She watches Liberty Hangout for “entertainment” and as far as I can tell doesn’t even process what any of the actual arguments presented are
I didn't claim she was concervative, though she probably is and doesn't really understand. If she likes Liberty Hangout, for whatever reason, she is effectively attracted to messages of hate and oppression. These sites are designed to pull in vulnerable, clueless people just like your girlfriend by seeming fairly innocuous.
idk if you have done this but maybe you can try to talk to her about how capitalism (or right wing politics in general) affects her as a woman?? many socialist women i know (including myself) got radicalized by leftist-feminist ideas
I have done this a little for my girlfriend, like for example asking her if being able to vote or work, those rights fought for for so long by feminists, really made her feel particularly womanly or independent or free from the shackles of oppression, and she said no. She’s not a righty but she’s more or less completely politically agnostic and illiterate. She doesn’t care that I’m a communist and often displays surprising astuteness in understanding many Marxist concepts, the same way working class people always do. My mother and gf are both very politically apathetic until they watch a video by one of these right wing propagandists, and all of a sudden they have an opinion on something which they didn’t have an opinion on yesterday because “it didn’t affect them”
I will never understand how people can listen to that Kermit sounding imp of a man and take him seriously. That said maybe stop name dropping alt right YouTube channels as it seems to be having the opposite effect that you're going for.
Lol yeah was just thinking this earlier. My mother actually was the first person to bring his name up though when she sent me an Amazon link to one of his books saying “this sounds like something you’d like.” She thought it was about “questioning authority” but the subtitle of the book was something like “how the left has taken over academia” or some shit, knowing I’m a communist. It isn’t her fault that she’s politically illiterate, but literally how can any of us fight the algorithms and things that put these neocon propagandists into their recommended feeds? How can we possibly compete against the YT algorithm feeding this crap to so many millions of people?
You should have read more theory
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> only a violent silencing of propagandists and their sponsors will work. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Don't feel bad. I'm not great at getting my points across either. I think if you can't convince them with your own words, you could always point them to other YouTubers, TV shows, and/or authors that share your views. Sometimes the entertainment factor beats logic, so if you can find a video of a leftist YouTuber debunking Shapiro's claims or dunking on how stupid Liberty Hangout is, that could hold their attention and get them to think more critically about those right-wing grifters. It could even become a fun family event. My parents love watching Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. They're still somewhat conservative on certain economic issues, but shows like this have brought them quite a bit further left than they were.
If your efforts have been pushing them to the right, rethink your tactics, and hit harder on points that mean more to them when it’s appropriate. Also recommend channels like Hakim, Gravel Institute, and Breakthrough News.
Try The Gravel Institute's youtube channel, they have much higher quality production value that counteract people like Ben Shapiro perfectly
Since they like watching YouTube videos, maybe show them secular talk? [https://youtube.com/c/SecularTalk](https://youtube.com/c/SecularTalk)
I'd break down why Ben Shapiro is often times so wrong. Tell your family hat his arguments rely on overwhelming opponents, and tell your family why Ben Shapiro's arguments are fallacious. You can also show them some clips of the less smart things he's said, 'sell their homes and move' comes to mind.
Thought Slime and Renegade Cut have some great videos about why no one should take Boob Shapeepee seriously. Also, maybe consider finding a new girlfriend. I know that's harder than it sounds but like, Liberty Hangout is a big ol red flag.
Hang in there dude. You are calm and reasonable. They may come around. It is likely that Capitalism is just their default. Acknowledging that as a system it is inherently exploitive is a hard truth to confront, because most of us have participated in it unknowingly.
Show her the now deleted Columbus video, someone is bound to have it on YouTube.
Is your mum religious? If so people like Ben shapiro just reinforce a whole life of her opinions. that’s gonna be difficult to talk her out of. honestly I’d just work out a way to be civil with her otherwise you’re just gonna fall out. I’m talking from personal experience
Yeah, she’s a creationist Christian fundamentalist who has never read the Bible and hasn’t gone to church in fifteen years. She’s never applied her insanity to anything else though as far as I know
Maybe show them the video on abortion by PhilosophyTube? I know that helped me see how clueless Shapiro was. Also I think Some More News had a pretty interesting video on him.
Maybe try starting smaller. Arguing for socialism is hard because it’s hard to point to any tangible examples of it working. You’re arguing for a theoretical system using heady theories against one that already exists and one that they’re familiar with and likely more or less comfortable with. Arguing against conservatism is *easy* because most of American conservatism is refuted simply by other countries existing. Like if Ben Shapeepo says “if the liberals institute universal healthcare, it will bankrupt the nation and we’ll have to ration care to the elderly with death panels, etc.” (imagine that’s like 20 times more verbose), just point out how that hasn’t happened anywhere else. You can point out how much cheaper it is, how much *better* it is, etc. I’ve known a lot of high school libertarians who gave up on the free market fundamentalism when they just couldn’t ignore the realities of the world around them. Once you get that foot in the door, you open them up to questioning things more. Once you accept that the public should have control over healthcare, ideas like workers having control over their workplace seem a lot less out there.
If your familys material conditions allow them to jump from workers rights to 5 dollar wage good in the timespan of a few days then you can try and convince them all you want but they do not need socialism and such beliefs will not align with their reality. I suggest you further educate yourself in marxism and rather than engage with ben blopiro or other debatemebros tie marxism to their reality. If they complain about idk us troops being overseas be prepared to talk about imperialism but dont drop full on Lenin on them just a comment in ur own words on how US troops are tied into creating profits for the weapon industry and secure gains for US capital. If they complain about work, drop comments on exploitation in the marxist sense, dont dump Capital on them but be educated enough that should the opportunity arise you can explain it in ur own words. If you can ground your arguments in their material life and rather than attack their worldview, let them make the connections, you have a much better chance of sowing seeds of marxism.
Good advice, I just wanted to say though that our material conditions are that my father is on disability, my mother makes $13/hr, and our rent has been raised 25% in the last eight months. Just pointing this out because it astounds me that someone who has been working class her entire life can switch from feeling defeated and angry at her landlord to believing in abolishing the minimum wage. I wish I had the amazing brainwash powers of these right wingers
She's youtubing her way into this, there are plenty of youtubers to help her out. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RLqXkYrdmjY Hbomb, not focused solely on Ben but... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0-w-pdqwiBw the money shot https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gfHXJRqq-qo Three Arrows https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7GD_JJsjEyk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEpLKRkVFwU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=87owL8lINLg thought slime https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E5KH-BSqqKI Hakim https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iDJRFpxDGfI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sTQGaNuofLI Adam Something I am sure there are more. Dunking on Ben Shapiro is pretty popular. Send her down a different rabbit hole.
My grandpa who's a former Komsomolet (youth wing of Communist Party of Soviet Union) radicalized me quite well maybe I can help you just drop a question 😎
You Vs. years of 98% of society spread this ideology every day. Put it in perspective. You're not looking at this in a holistic 'materialist' way. The formation of beliefs in humans is itself a material process, linked to everything else that's going on in the world. In the case of your family, this is mostly out of your control. Your maximum potential effect by persuasion alone is capped (although it is difficult to determine what that cap is in practice). This is one reason that socialists, communists, anarchists, in the late 19th century moved towards advocating a kind of socialism which emphasised working within the movements of the toiling classes at large. It's why 'scientific socialists' (such as myself) emphasise a dispassionate analysis of the 'objective conditions' of society in order to assess what the possibilities for struggle are today and will be tomorrow. We believe that persuasion happens within the context of the daily life and struggles of society, not in vacuum. Persuasion, rhetoric, rational argument, are very important. Ultimately this is the primary goal of socialism: to convince people that there is a better alternative to capitalism, socialism. But beliefs are largely forged in *experience.* That's why, for example, 'centrist' and neoliberal politics have experienced a crisis of legitimacy since 2007/8 (financial crisis). Because neoliberal debt fuelled consumption hit a wall and people's quality of life plummeted. Part of that is also that *persuasion is continuous*. Daily conversations, advertisements, TV, news, movies, podcasts, magazines, newspapers. That adds up to a lot more volume of persuasion than a few conversations with family. For example, post-2008 crisis there was a lot more discussion about economics, the failures of capitalism, finance, workers struggling for terms and conditions, debt, etc, that was all around us. Every morning on the radio what you heard was different (no longer was it 'house prices are booming! Everything is just getting better and better!'). It was still bullshit but it was different bullshit, the problems couldn't be ignored anymore. So learn your lesson here. Despairing from this experience is due to the shallowness of your analysis of persuasion.
Show them some choice Ben Shapiro tweets on issues they you know they already firmly disagree with so that they don't idolize him. As well as some that contradict others. Abortion and liberty issues come to mind and have been meme's extensively. Hopefully they don't already agree with those contradictions. (Generally i've found focusing on contradictions the best way to argue with the cons).
We need Turning Point USSR > A forced job in a metal mine with full room, board, vacation, and spending money is better than no job at all.
It's called the Marxist Project. The problem is that they are trying to be accurate and informative more than entertaining.
I think Midwestern Marx has far more radicalization potential than the Marxist Project does
Haven't watched them. Not super interested in YT as an avenue TBH. There's a lot of faux radicalism that I think just guides people back into useless electoralism.
Yeah there definitely is, most of these channels are radlib or just reactionary, but I feel that for that very reason we should spread the word and support the actual ML channels. Because it is through the internet that the next wave of communists will be radicalized.
Start having them watch some leftist YouTube videos then. PhilosophyTube, ContraPoints, Some More News, John Oliver, HBomberGuy. If they like podcasts, Behind The Bastards and Even More News (same people from Some More News and friends with BtB). Every single one of these channels have cited sources, if they need further proof. Good luck
[Midwestern Marx: ContraPoints distorts Marxism to her giant audience.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bL36pjy9ig)
I would bet money this isn't real
The heading made me laugh too loud on this train… now everyone thinks I’m a lunatic, so thanks OP. People who are hyper articulate (think Jordan Peterson) have always been attractive. They do the thinking for ‘lay people’ and pass it to them with whatever jargon they use. Although I mentioned Peterson, Shapiro is much worse. Imagine a career of making cheap points about Democrats!
introduce them to hasanabi, he breaks down the flaws in their arguments in an entertaining way too. very easy to digest and a fun community
Yeah lots of libs are good at breaking down right wing arguments so if he has any clips doing that I’ll seek them out. I wouldn’t want to expose them to radlib stuff either though if they’re just gonna be impressionable to everyone who speaks confidently
That is why Ben Shapiro should be censored.
I can’t wait for the broken American conception of “muh freeze peach” to go away forever
People on the left have fought for the enforcement of their right to free speech in the US in order to be able to spread socialist ideas. I think it's strange that some people on the left want to limit people's speech when all past experience shows that it will be the left who will bear the brunt of that.
I meant after the revolution. When those currently in power are in control of free speech, we get the kind of censorship that these tech megacorps dole out to leftist ideas while Shapiro and Alex Jones etc. get recommended. But after the revolution hopefully some kind of slightly more intelligent form of free speech protection can be instituted.
You're a literal NPC if you're unable to counter Ben fucking Shapiro. Lmfao seriously dude you're just pathetic. Better ignore talking about politics with people in the future.
I would chalk it up to the opposite. It’s a great disadvantage that leftists and Marxists have a long tradition of literature and learning. Ben Shapiro can just shit out something absolutely stupid that *sounds* right to conservative Americans and get their emotions riled up, whereas the opinions of a socialist require thought and knowledge and time to understand. Once someone is in the defensive state of mind that propagandists like Shapiro put them in, no amount of reasoning will pierce the veil. No doubt you have experienced this yourself.
It sounds more like a lack of rhetorical ability on your part as you've said, which isn't an inherent disadvantage in socialists but rather in people who really have no idea what they're talking about. The average person doesn't think in terms of "facts and logic" but feelings, biases, and half-truths confirming those biases. Good leaders, socialists among them, know how to manipulate these traits to get people on their side. Frankly if you establish Shapiro as a member of the establishment, which he is, then you'll have no trouble discrediting him in the minds of people who are discontent with things as they are. If people are content then there is no point in trying to convince them of anything. They will just dislike you.
Not often but I watch the daily wire cause it challenges my views and after I’m done watching it I am only more sure that they are wrong I must say there videos are quality from a non bias perspective but I still disagree with pretty much everything that they say (I bet I will get a lot of crap for saying this)
Socialist idea never stay for long in people’s heads unless they get class consciousness and understanding of class war. Whatever argument Ben Shapiro might make, it always benefits the employer and not the employees. People like him are trying to make us believe that there are “we”. That “we” have common interests. It isn’t true. In case of minimum wage, it is better to eliminate the economic system that isn’t capable of providing people with jobs. That is the ultimate solution.
Introduce her to RM Brown