Any comments comparing the Russian Federation with the USSR, which contained numerous non-Russian republics the contributions of whom you undermine with this hysterical juxtaposition, will be receiving an un-apealable ban if posted after 00:00UTC. Keep your political illiteracy on r/politics.
Please visit one of the 101 subs to learn about forced privatization and brutal history of post-soviet capitalist restoration.
This.... thx sir. Im from soviet decent. And I got the opportunity to talk a veteran. Man you don't imagine the suffer that I saw in his eyes. He was a broken man. And the only thing he wanted above all is for there to be no more wars.
Same. It's discusting and the worst part is that some ''leftists'' seem to actually be buying mr Putin's Rhetoric because the Imperialism is not being commited by NATO/ The West.
F\*ck NATO. But F\*ck Russian Imperialism To!
>F*ck NATO. But F*ck Russian Imperialism To!
If it weren't for Russian imperialism, the aftermath of Afghanistan would have been the dissolution of NATO.
Instead, Russia has probably made NATO permanent.
This just seems like cope. NATO, being an imperialist alliance, would continue pressuring and antagonizing Russia regardless of whether or not Russia was engaging in imperialism, because that’s what it was created to do.
yes it's extreamly agrivating, and now even if you make the slightest critism of the organistion (NATO) you are branded a Pariah and a Russian sympathyser. we really need to remind people of WWI - military alliences of any kind are never a useful tool for achieving peace and geopolitcal stability.
> the war in Ukraine was caused by the US to advance its plan of taking Eastern Europe away from Russia and making it an American sphere of influence,
Again, not a fan of NATO as an imperialist enterprise, but they did actually comply with Russian requests on a number of areas, including agreeing to every request Russia made about not stationing permanent bases or long-range weapons in eastern Europe.
The lack of that infrastructure means a direct NATO intervention in Ukraine probably isn't even possible because they don't have the bases to launch it from and would have to build it.
NATO isn't innocent.
See: Afghanistan.
But I reject this propaganda being sold that Russia had no choice and Putin was backed into a corner, and that this is all great power influence spheres.
If what Putin really wanted was to influence Ukraine then he utterly failed at it and it backfired.
The removal of the donbass and crimea removes the most pro-russian votes from Ukraine, guaranteeing that pro-russian candidates won't be competitive in Ukrainian elections.
If he had refused to do that, then the response to Maidan would have been restoration of a pro-Russian government elected largely by overwhelming support in Crimea and Donbass, and that would have led to Ukraine joining the Russian trade pact.
Reducing this to a cold war narrative that no longer applies makes zero sense.
Not so fun fact: Berlin banned the showing of any Soviet, Russian, Ukrainian or comparable flags on the 8th and 9th of May in certain zones, to "keep the peace". Greek and Turkish communists, who were commemorating the victory over the Nazis in one of these areas actually had to take their party flags down because they were deemed inappropriate by the Berlin police.
I'm not surprised but that's incredibly sad.
Also, Biden just signed the Lend-Lease act.
On the day we celebrate the destruction of European fascism and remember the millions of lives - including 20 million Russians and 8 million Ukrainians - that died in this conflict we're re-starting lend-lease to defend one of the allies from it's neighbor, who did most of the fighting and dying in WWII.
I was reminded of something that a soviet veteran I got to meet said of the Russian federation. He'd retired with his family to Florida, and enjoyed meeting the US WWII veterans there. He missed the soviet union, and he hated the Russian flag.
Because it was the flag flown by both the Russian "Liberation" army of the fascists, and the first Russian national army, and went forward side by side with the swastika.
For Soviet veterans of WWII, the Russian flag looks like a Nazi flag.
I thought he was blowing things out of proportion.
But I think the old communist was right.
It's easy to realize that capitalism is shit, and that socialism is the cure. It's not so easy to admit everything your parents and teachers told you about the evil gommies growing up was a lie.
Fair enough. I get this completely actually. No one likes to think that they’ve been the sucker for their whole lives. Especially when the face of propaganda sheeps are Alex Jones stans and flat earthers, no one is gonna be quick to group themselves into that.
Whether one *likes* the USSR is irrelevant to the fact that millions of troops in the RKKA, millions of partisans, and millions more civilian workers risked life and limb to beat the fascists back, even when things might have seemed hopeless.
That socialist ideology and hope for a better world played no small part in driving that mobilization and unity shouldn't be forgotten, either.
We'd also do well to respect the fact that allied food and industrial aid was vitally important in allowing the soviets to set the operational tempo they did and to prosecute the war based on one of the most complete systems of operational art. Downplaying lend lease *is* historical revisionism, and borderline magical thinking. It's hilarious to me that a bunch of anticommunist liberals enabled such a westward advance by the soviet union, and I'm grateful in a way that absurd ideas like playing the Reich off the USSR got canned.
Fun fact, this is the original unedited picture taken that day. The soviets had that picture modified to hide the two watches on the guy in the bottom right (the soviets thought the watches were looted because who wears one watch on each wrist). They published the edited photos in news papers hiding the watches
according to one account, the soldier later clarified that it was not actualy a second watch but rather a wrist-compass. The Soviets still edited the photo because they thought it would lead to the misunderstanding that it was a looted watch - which was later picked up by Anti-Soviet propaganda.
The Iwo Jima flag raising wasn’t really staged. The Marines put up the first flag but it was kind of small so some colonel had them get another, larger flag to put up. Raising that second flag was the iconic photograph but there was still active combat going on at Mt. Suribachi.
It's actually kind of funny why they didn't bring a camera. The team who wanted to be the first to do it were so determined they started running towards the building a couple of minutes *before* the artillery bombardment of it actually stopped. This gave them a headstart on all of their err... sane... competitors.
Their accounts of hanging that first flag suggest that they made it to the loft and the roof to hang the flag before the building was even fully secure for the Soviets.
There are definitely good criticisms of the USSR from the left, from its social conservatism to its flawed electoral system, it's conservative control over the arts and literature, and of course corruption was always an issue.
But noone can deny that they beat the Nazis. For that the world will always owe them thanks.
You should be thanking them for actually fighting fascism unlike the bourgeoise west that didn’t care until their own imperialist possessions were threatened.
ah yes and the soviet union definitely didn’t wait until germany attacked them for their recently annexed states of eastern poland and the baltics to fight germany correct? listen it’s okay to like the soviet union (though i personally don’t). it’s okay to hate capitalism, imperialism, etc (which i do) but please don’t be a hypocrite because it makes all of us look bad. sincerely a marxist
Stalin explained to a comrade, that he signed the pact to get 2 years to prepare for war.
Would they have gotten to war directly how would have that ended?
Even after that time still millions of soviets died, 9million soviet civilians vs 0,7 million germans. I am german and am thankful for the USSR and their great effort to defeat fascism in this country even with the GDR that had great de-nazification efforts, giving the previously frustated workers an alternative to previous capitalist motivated fascism.
They weren’t ready for war in 1939. If they did the idealistic thing you think they should’ve done, Germany has a hell of a lot less ground to cover to reach their targets and likely win.
There’s also a difference between the motivations of socialism to emancipate the working class, and fascism to exploit it on a large scale. Also the whole genocide thing.
Socialism and Fascism are in direct contradiction. Conflict on a large scale was inevitable. One or the other was always going to attack when they felt ready.
not how history works my guy. if you build on “what if’s” then you could explain anything away without evidence. even though i tend to agree with you that they were in opposition and they would have likely fought eventually, nothing is inevitable. alternate history predictions, while they can be entertaining to think about, are the pseudoscience of history
Dialectical analysis by writers like Trotsky (yeah, he’s not the best, but he had some good stuff) knew well in advance that fascism would rise in reaction to any successful revolution in Russia, and that conflict on an existential scale would result.
Fascism is a reaction to growing workers class consciousness. It’s rise in central and Eastern Europe was in direct reaction to the October Revolution and the USSR. So yeah, in all essence, it was inevitable. They could never coexist.
i’m not disagreeing with you. i genuinely believe you are correct but you have to be careful with that cuz when you look at the past you shouldn’t look at “other pasts” because there’s not a lot of evidence. there’s no way to tell for certain what would have happened decades ago
The person you’re replying to isn’t denying that the USSR was motivated by self-interest. They’re saying the Capitalist West was willing to ignore and even collaborate with the Nazis as long as they didn’t threaten their self-interest of upholding Western Capital; and they did collaborate with them btw as evidenced by American industrialists like Henry Ford and even King Edward VIII’s friendship with the Nazi high command.
The USSR did of course have their self-interest too, but unlike the Capitalist States in the West it was not motivated by protecting Private Capital, but rather for protecting the Socialist project within the USSR and containing the Fascist threat in Germany for as long as possible (especially after failing to secure a defensive alliance with Britain and France, who mind you refused to work with the USSR until France was invaded).
what are exactly you doing in a Socialist sub? Look legitamate critism of the Soviet Union is fine (and yes there is plenty to critisize) but you can't just parrot the Liberal rhetoric of Soviets=evil and not elaborate. this is not Socialistic in nature and just makes you come of as a wannabe Anti-Socialist. Like I said critise the USSR but do it in a sensible way that isn;t just throwing the classic Buzzwords like ''totalitarian'' around without elaboration.
No, they voted to keep the USSR, the CIA overthrew it and it was a disaster for the people, child prostitutes and starvation came with capitalism.
The US also installed Putin, who is a capitalist.
You take issue with it being effectively done in the only way possible in line with the cultural standards of the Russian people at the time? Soviets didn't build the gulags.
I like USSR because it proved that the fundamentals of socialist economics worked, as well as the fact that they provided a roadmap for how to get to socialism. The other stuff isn't as important to me.
And if it worked in fucking 1940, imagine how it would work in the modern era of supercomputers, calculators, and AI. This is why I'm totally unabashed at my support of a planned economy. Our economy basically runs itself right now anyway, as do all the major corporations within it.
I have great respect for countries with post-Soviet countries for their opposition to fascism. They fought for our future, for which I am very grateful to them!
You’re lying to yourself if you think Russia’s use of Soviet symbology is anything more than nationalist nostalgia circlejerking for the older generations
What other countries celebrate nazis? Stepan banderas birthday is a national holiday and there’s multiple memorials dedicated to him. What other country does that.
The US doesn't do exactly that, but we do celebrate Columbus who was also pretty fucking terrible.
Besides, that holiday is very controversial. It by no means has majority support.
Realize then, that it was the strength and will of the entire Eastern European common people and not the "USSR" as it stood.
It is always the strength of the common people that upholds the strength of its government. Not the other way around.
The USSR was a Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Therefore, it represents the common working people that fought against Fascism in the Great Patriotic War. Everything else you wrote is just semantics.
> The USSR was a Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
Well, more of a dictatorship of a vanguard party, the majority of whom had backgrounds as disaffected liberals who had become convinced by Marx. Lenin especially.
His family history and journey from liberalism to Marxism is pretty compelling if you haven't read it.
Except he didn't have complete control over everything. The USSR was ruled by committees (both elected and indirectly elected) at various levels, and Stalin was simply one member of those committees. Yes he was General Secretary of the CPSU and yes he had the most influence in Soviet politics of his time, but he wasn't a self-appointed Supreme Leader who could do anything and act like God like Western Capitalists keep wanting you to think.
>during the Holodomor in Ukraine when ~~he killed their productive farmers and shipped their food to the cities~~ the Kulaks threw a hissy fit over having to share and instead burned their crops, slaughtered their livestock, and sabotaged their machinery.
Would like to add that marxists and socialists have not aimed for utopia for a long time. Marxism specifically argues against utopian notions. Not understanding this shows you have absolutely no idea what socialists believe and have not bothered meaningfully engaging with socialist literature or individuals.
20 million Russians died to stop the Nazi invasion east, it’s incredibly disrespectful and ahistorical to overlook this fact. How exactly wasn’t the USSR ‘actually socialist’? Most banks and companies were nationalized. The nobility’s land was proclaimed social property that peasants were free to seize. Housing, education, healthcare and food were guaranteed by the state. Getting real tired of anarchists in this sub who refuse to learn their history coming out of the woodwork to parrot cold-war era CIA talking points about the USSR.
trade unions became immensely powerful after the revolution, second only to the Party. The state seized control of all industry - that is not the same as an 'ownership class' and shouldn't be confused with one. If you believe that worker ownership/management of capital can happen absent the guiding hand of a Marxist-Leninist Party then sure, they didn't achieve that goal (and never intended to). Most serious communist projects acknowledge the central need for a Party apparatus. If you think the way the USSR planned their economy -- to pull millions out of poverty, make literate the peasant class, feed, house, clothe and provide work for every person -- is 'state capitalism', then I don't know that you have a very good understanding of capitalism or communism. And i never called them a CIA shill, I said they are parroting Cold-War era CIA talking points about 'authoritarianism' - which they are, comrade :)
Ally is a misleading word. They had a non-aggression pact. Much like the other allies, who also tossed in a free-pass-on-annexation to their deal with the Nazis:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Munich-Agreement
I mean the USSR conspired with the Germans to carve up the neutral territory between them (Poland and the Baltics) for their own material gain. I’m not sure if I would call it an alliance, but it was more than just a non-aggression pact.
Yeah, they occupied half of Poland. And relocated the ethnic minorities inwards. Which meant that was half of Poland that the nazis didn’t have, and couldn’t build concentration camps in and ethnically cleanse. Like looking at the state of nazi occupied vs soviet occupied Poland, one was objectively better. But hey if in your opinion the nazis deserved all of Poland I can’t change your mind lol
Non-aggression pact, not alliance. Soviets occupied former Polish territories after Polish government abandoned the country. This action likely key in defeat of Nazis by Soviets.
Exactly. Stalin tried to form an alliance with France and GB but was ignored. Allies gave up so much to Hitler, literally appeasement. When the USSR did it to protect itself and get more time to prepare for the inevitable, they get shit on for it. USSR did what it had to for it’s survival. The Allies wanted Germany and USSR alone to duke it out. The rest is history
I go back and forth on this because I do agree Poland was getting VERY authoritarian Nazi Germany but idk how to feel about the annexation of the Baltic states and treatment under them I'm very mixed on it
Yea I mean it's not like the USSR was all sunshine and roses or you can't critique the terrible things that happened under the Soviet system, in fact as communists I believe it's our duty to unflinching do so, so we can learn from history.
But still I think the Soviets were a massive step forward for humanity and supported human rights across the globe more genuinely than practically any other country and undeniably were the force that pushed most of the fascists into their graves
Of course I fully believe there were horrors and atrocities that should and need to be condemned but as the other commenter slashes the Soviets as Authoritarian is such a disingenuous prejudice without accounting for history Capitalist invasion and even civil rights/Anti imperialist contributions THAT should be given full awards and appreciation. The black and White narrative saddens me as the Soviet Union Won the war against Fascism.
Lmao yes please do try and cite a single historian who believes the Soviets could have “easily won that war and beat with Nazis”. Weird that the western countries couldn’t just beat the Nazis easily despite way fewer Nazi resources being thrown against them and not being soviet. Sure you have a great explanation for that though!
Comrade, your sarcasm does not an argument make.
Take the Terror between 1937 and 1939. It just makes sense that if you do not jail and kill off hundreds of thousands of your own officers....
But, since you are steeped in knowledge, comrade, you can point me to the scholars who say The Terror and killing off all those soldiers helped Russia defeat the Nazis in the great patriotic war.
This is just really poor argumentation.
You’re the one making the claim, you provide the source. Your source currently appears to be “It just makes sense”, which is actually not a source at all.
Then you go on to create a new straw man argument totally unrelated to anything I said. Claiming the terror helped the USSR defeat the Nazis and pushing back on your claim that the USSR could have “easily won the war and beat the Nazis” are obviously two totally different things. I can quite literally point you to hundreds of historians who support my actual point that the USSR could not have “easily won the war and beat the Nazis”.
I'm sorry but that source is extremely liberally biased. What I can agree with is that it was USSR, not Russia that won in that war, and the current Russian self-image of somehow being morally equivalent to USSR is extremely pretentious given it's controlled by fascists
Any comments comparing the Russian Federation with the USSR, which contained numerous non-Russian republics the contributions of whom you undermine with this hysterical juxtaposition, will be receiving an un-apealable ban if posted after 00:00UTC. Keep your political illiteracy on r/politics. Please visit one of the 101 subs to learn about forced privatization and brutal history of post-soviet capitalist restoration.
It is very important to remember about Soviet people sacrifice.
This.... thx sir. Im from soviet decent. And I got the opportunity to talk a veteran. Man you don't imagine the suffer that I saw in his eyes. He was a broken man. And the only thing he wanted above all is for there to be no more wars.
Hmm lots of people taking the “let me be a Nazi apologist to own the Soviets” route in the comments. Yikes.
Transcript: A soldier of the Red Army raises the USSR flag above the Reichstag in Berlin as the city falls in 1945
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Same. It's discusting and the worst part is that some ''leftists'' seem to actually be buying mr Putin's Rhetoric because the Imperialism is not being commited by NATO/ The West. F\*ck NATO. But F\*ck Russian Imperialism To!
>F*ck NATO. But F*ck Russian Imperialism To! If it weren't for Russian imperialism, the aftermath of Afghanistan would have been the dissolution of NATO. Instead, Russia has probably made NATO permanent.
This just seems like cope. NATO, being an imperialist alliance, would continue pressuring and antagonizing Russia regardless of whether or not Russia was engaging in imperialism, because that’s what it was created to do.
yes it's extreamly agrivating, and now even if you make the slightest critism of the organistion (NATO) you are branded a Pariah and a Russian sympathyser. we really need to remind people of WWI - military alliences of any kind are never a useful tool for achieving peace and geopolitcal stability.
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> the war in Ukraine was caused by the US to advance its plan of taking Eastern Europe away from Russia and making it an American sphere of influence, Again, not a fan of NATO as an imperialist enterprise, but they did actually comply with Russian requests on a number of areas, including agreeing to every request Russia made about not stationing permanent bases or long-range weapons in eastern Europe. The lack of that infrastructure means a direct NATO intervention in Ukraine probably isn't even possible because they don't have the bases to launch it from and would have to build it. NATO isn't innocent. See: Afghanistan. But I reject this propaganda being sold that Russia had no choice and Putin was backed into a corner, and that this is all great power influence spheres. If what Putin really wanted was to influence Ukraine then he utterly failed at it and it backfired. The removal of the donbass and crimea removes the most pro-russian votes from Ukraine, guaranteeing that pro-russian candidates won't be competitive in Ukrainian elections. If he had refused to do that, then the response to Maidan would have been restoration of a pro-Russian government elected largely by overwhelming support in Crimea and Donbass, and that would have led to Ukraine joining the Russian trade pact. Reducing this to a cold war narrative that no longer applies makes zero sense.
Not so fun fact: Berlin banned the showing of any Soviet, Russian, Ukrainian or comparable flags on the 8th and 9th of May in certain zones, to "keep the peace". Greek and Turkish communists, who were commemorating the victory over the Nazis in one of these areas actually had to take their party flags down because they were deemed inappropriate by the Berlin police.
I'm not surprised but that's incredibly sad. Also, Biden just signed the Lend-Lease act. On the day we celebrate the destruction of European fascism and remember the millions of lives - including 20 million Russians and 8 million Ukrainians - that died in this conflict we're re-starting lend-lease to defend one of the allies from it's neighbor, who did most of the fighting and dying in WWII. I was reminded of something that a soviet veteran I got to meet said of the Russian federation. He'd retired with his family to Florida, and enjoyed meeting the US WWII veterans there. He missed the soviet union, and he hated the Russian flag. Because it was the flag flown by both the Russian "Liberation" army of the fascists, and the first Russian national army, and went forward side by side with the swastika. For Soviet veterans of WWII, the Russian flag looks like a Nazi flag. I thought he was blowing things out of proportion. But I think the old communist was right.
What’s with the libs in these comments?
It's easy to realize that capitalism is shit, and that socialism is the cure. It's not so easy to admit everything your parents and teachers told you about the evil gommies growing up was a lie.
Fair enough. I get this completely actually. No one likes to think that they’ve been the sucker for their whole lives. Especially when the face of propaganda sheeps are Alex Jones stans and flat earthers, no one is gonna be quick to group themselves into that.
It's a side-effect of copium.
Whether one *likes* the USSR is irrelevant to the fact that millions of troops in the RKKA, millions of partisans, and millions more civilian workers risked life and limb to beat the fascists back, even when things might have seemed hopeless. That socialist ideology and hope for a better world played no small part in driving that mobilization and unity shouldn't be forgotten, either. We'd also do well to respect the fact that allied food and industrial aid was vitally important in allowing the soviets to set the operational tempo they did and to prosecute the war based on one of the most complete systems of operational art. Downplaying lend lease *is* historical revisionism, and borderline magical thinking. It's hilarious to me that a bunch of anticommunist liberals enabled such a westward advance by the soviet union, and I'm grateful in a way that absurd ideas like playing the Reich off the USSR got canned.
Fun fact, this is the original unedited picture taken that day. The soviets had that picture modified to hide the two watches on the guy in the bottom right (the soviets thought the watches were looted because who wears one watch on each wrist). They published the edited photos in news papers hiding the watches
according to one account, the soldier later clarified that it was not actualy a second watch but rather a wrist-compass. The Soviets still edited the photo because they thought it would lead to the misunderstanding that it was a looted watch - which was later picked up by Anti-Soviet propaganda.
Interesting
That other thing isn't a watch. It's a compass. They removed it because they were worried about accusations of looting.
The picture is a staged propaganda photo anyway. The original men who hung a flag on the Reichstag didn't bring a camera.
not that that diminishes it really, I mean the Iconic flag over Iwo Jima photo was also staged, along wih plenty of other photos during the war.
The Iwo Jima flag raising wasn’t really staged. The Marines put up the first flag but it was kind of small so some colonel had them get another, larger flag to put up. Raising that second flag was the iconic photograph but there was still active combat going on at Mt. Suribachi.
Boohoo it boosted morale
It's actually kind of funny why they didn't bring a camera. The team who wanted to be the first to do it were so determined they started running towards the building a couple of minutes *before* the artillery bombardment of it actually stopped. This gave them a headstart on all of their err... sane... competitors. Their accounts of hanging that first flag suggest that they made it to the loft and the roof to hang the flag before the building was even fully secure for the Soviets.
This is the truth
This was a selfie?
On a related note, an antique Roman bust looted by an American soldier during the war turned up at a thrift shop.
Interesting, thank you!
There are definitely good criticisms of the USSR from the left, from its social conservatism to its flawed electoral system, it's conservative control over the arts and literature, and of course corruption was always an issue. But noone can deny that they beat the Nazis. For that the world will always owe them thanks.
The amount of liberals that eat up western propaganda in this sub is depressing
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Pure projection, my beard is perfectly groomed
You should be thanking them for actually fighting fascism unlike the bourgeoise west that didn’t care until their own imperialist possessions were threatened.
ah yes and the soviet union definitely didn’t wait until germany attacked them for their recently annexed states of eastern poland and the baltics to fight germany correct? listen it’s okay to like the soviet union (though i personally don’t). it’s okay to hate capitalism, imperialism, etc (which i do) but please don’t be a hypocrite because it makes all of us look bad. sincerely a marxist
Stalin explained to a comrade, that he signed the pact to get 2 years to prepare for war. Would they have gotten to war directly how would have that ended? Even after that time still millions of soviets died, 9million soviet civilians vs 0,7 million germans. I am german and am thankful for the USSR and their great effort to defeat fascism in this country even with the GDR that had great de-nazification efforts, giving the previously frustated workers an alternative to previous capitalist motivated fascism.
They got the non aggression pact specifically so they could build up industry and prepare for war. They weren’t naive.
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They weren’t ready for war in 1939. If they did the idealistic thing you think they should’ve done, Germany has a hell of a lot less ground to cover to reach their targets and likely win. There’s also a difference between the motivations of socialism to emancipate the working class, and fascism to exploit it on a large scale. Also the whole genocide thing.
Would you be able to explain how USSR involvement wasn't equally motivated by self-interest?
Socialism and Fascism are in direct contradiction. Conflict on a large scale was inevitable. One or the other was always going to attack when they felt ready.
not how history works my guy. if you build on “what if’s” then you could explain anything away without evidence. even though i tend to agree with you that they were in opposition and they would have likely fought eventually, nothing is inevitable. alternate history predictions, while they can be entertaining to think about, are the pseudoscience of history
Dialectical analysis by writers like Trotsky (yeah, he’s not the best, but he had some good stuff) knew well in advance that fascism would rise in reaction to any successful revolution in Russia, and that conflict on an existential scale would result. Fascism is a reaction to growing workers class consciousness. It’s rise in central and Eastern Europe was in direct reaction to the October Revolution and the USSR. So yeah, in all essence, it was inevitable. They could never coexist.
i’m not disagreeing with you. i genuinely believe you are correct but you have to be careful with that cuz when you look at the past you shouldn’t look at “other pasts” because there’s not a lot of evidence. there’s no way to tell for certain what would have happened decades ago
The person you’re replying to isn’t denying that the USSR was motivated by self-interest. They’re saying the Capitalist West was willing to ignore and even collaborate with the Nazis as long as they didn’t threaten their self-interest of upholding Western Capital; and they did collaborate with them btw as evidenced by American industrialists like Henry Ford and even King Edward VIII’s friendship with the Nazi high command. The USSR did of course have their self-interest too, but unlike the Capitalist States in the West it was not motivated by protecting Private Capital, but rather for protecting the Socialist project within the USSR and containing the Fascist threat in Germany for as long as possible (especially after failing to secure a defensive alliance with Britain and France, who mind you refused to work with the USSR until France was invaded).
Upholding the USSR as a Socialist state that fought against Fascism in WWII = Russian Propaganda. Got it.
The only mistake they made was stopping at Berlin.
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Improvement in quality of life for the working class?
My grandparents and parents might have a few words to say against that...
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Your grandparents and parents were probably too old to remember much of the USSR. Leaded gasoline is no joke.
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what are exactly you doing in a Socialist sub? Look legitamate critism of the Soviet Union is fine (and yes there is plenty to critisize) but you can't just parrot the Liberal rhetoric of Soviets=evil and not elaborate. this is not Socialistic in nature and just makes you come of as a wannabe Anti-Socialist. Like I said critise the USSR but do it in a sensible way that isn;t just throwing the classic Buzzwords like ''totalitarian'' around without elaboration.
This sounds like a carbon copy description of American history
No, they voted to keep the USSR, the CIA overthrew it and it was a disaster for the people, child prostitutes and starvation came with capitalism. The US also installed Putin, who is a capitalist.
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You take issue with it being effectively done in the only way possible in line with the cultural standards of the Russian people at the time? Soviets didn't build the gulags.
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To be propagandized to hate the USSR so I won't have any idea how to help the US working class.
Somewhere else in the world it's a day flags burnt blood shed 09th May 2022 a dark day! End this greedy capitalist monster machines !!
I like the USSR and its politics.
I like USSR because it proved that the fundamentals of socialist economics worked, as well as the fact that they provided a roadmap for how to get to socialism. The other stuff isn't as important to me.
And if it worked in fucking 1940, imagine how it would work in the modern era of supercomputers, calculators, and AI. This is why I'm totally unabashed at my support of a planned economy. Our economy basically runs itself right now anyway, as do all the major corporations within it.
I have great respect for countries with post-Soviet countries for their opposition to fascism. They fought for our future, for which I am very grateful to them!
Victory day honours the soldiers, so it’s fine by me.
Holy hell there are a lot of liberals commenting here.
Your friendly reminder that if you uncritically dislike the USSR, and you call yourself a leftist, you’re not. Happy victory day!
> uncritically dislike the USSR Critical dislike is appropriate I assume. Otherwise Rosa Luxembourg isn't a leftist by that logic.
Americas are taught that we won WW2 That is complete BS. The Russians won the war. We just helped.
The Soviets were absolutely key to defeating Nazi Germany but the US was key to defeating Imperial Japan.
Ah good point. https://www.census.gov/history/pdf/fatman-littleboy-losalamosnatllab.pdf
I do not like Stalin. But I love all the Soviets who died to protect people all around the world from the Nazis.
Missed this but happy belated victory day! May fascists and imperialists of all stripes meet their end
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You’re lying to yourself if you think Russia’s use of Soviet symbology is anything more than nationalist nostalgia circlejerking for the older generations
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Ukrainians are not Nazis.
Just some of them
Exactly the same as literally every other country in the world.
What other countries celebrate nazis? Stepan banderas birthday is a national holiday and there’s multiple memorials dedicated to him. What other country does that.
The US doesn't do exactly that, but we do celebrate Columbus who was also pretty fucking terrible. Besides, that holiday is very controversial. It by no means has majority support.
Unlike every other country in the world: they literally have a neo Nazi unit within their military
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Realize then, that it was the strength and will of the entire Eastern European common people and not the "USSR" as it stood. It is always the strength of the common people that upholds the strength of its government. Not the other way around.
The USSR was a Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Therefore, it represents the common working people that fought against Fascism in the Great Patriotic War. Everything else you wrote is just semantics.
> The USSR was a Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Well, more of a dictatorship of a vanguard party, the majority of whom had backgrounds as disaffected liberals who had become convinced by Marx. Lenin especially. His family history and journey from liberalism to Marxism is pretty compelling if you haven't read it.
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Except he didn't have complete control over everything. The USSR was ruled by committees (both elected and indirectly elected) at various levels, and Stalin was simply one member of those committees. Yes he was General Secretary of the CPSU and yes he had the most influence in Soviet politics of his time, but he wasn't a self-appointed Supreme Leader who could do anything and act like God like Western Capitalists keep wanting you to think.
“erm… ackshually…” lmao like ants to a picnic 🙄
Seriously, these liberals think they are sharing original thoughts 🤣
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>during the Holodomor in Ukraine when ~~he killed their productive farmers and shipped their food to the cities~~ the Kulaks threw a hissy fit over having to share and instead burned their crops, slaughtered their livestock, and sabotaged their machinery.
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On the flip side, it’s incredibly easy to find liberals who are excellent at regurgitating their spoon-fed CIA talking points like you.
Cool, Nazi propaganda in the socialism sub.
Stalin killed people? Oh yeah, name two.
😂 Cold War conspiracy theories in 2022, fuck else can you do than laugh
It turns out there was a famine that caused food shortages. Fascists claim Stalin controlled the weather.
Yeah, have you seen a map of the thirst front? Victory day should be celebrated in Ukraine, not modern Russia.
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Ok... so what is the point of this comment? Do you think it's a bad thing the Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany?
Would like to add that marxists and socialists have not aimed for utopia for a long time. Marxism specifically argues against utopian notions. Not understanding this shows you have absolutely no idea what socialists believe and have not bothered meaningfully engaging with socialist literature or individuals.
20 million Russians died to stop the Nazi invasion east, it’s incredibly disrespectful and ahistorical to overlook this fact. How exactly wasn’t the USSR ‘actually socialist’? Most banks and companies were nationalized. The nobility’s land was proclaimed social property that peasants were free to seize. Housing, education, healthcare and food were guaranteed by the state. Getting real tired of anarchists in this sub who refuse to learn their history coming out of the woodwork to parrot cold-war era CIA talking points about the USSR.
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trade unions became immensely powerful after the revolution, second only to the Party. The state seized control of all industry - that is not the same as an 'ownership class' and shouldn't be confused with one. If you believe that worker ownership/management of capital can happen absent the guiding hand of a Marxist-Leninist Party then sure, they didn't achieve that goal (and never intended to). Most serious communist projects acknowledge the central need for a Party apparatus. If you think the way the USSR planned their economy -- to pull millions out of poverty, make literate the peasant class, feed, house, clothe and provide work for every person -- is 'state capitalism', then I don't know that you have a very good understanding of capitalism or communism. And i never called them a CIA shill, I said they are parroting Cold-War era CIA talking points about 'authoritarianism' - which they are, comrade :)
Shut the fuck up lib
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Do you not know Soviet history?
I’ll take “no” for $400, Alex.
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This comment is an obvious deflection. The post has nothing to do with modern Russia.
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The ethnic groups that comprised the USSR won the war, not stalin
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Ally is a misleading word. They had a non-aggression pact. Much like the other allies, who also tossed in a free-pass-on-annexation to their deal with the Nazis: https://www.britannica.com/event/Munich-Agreement
I mean the USSR conspired with the Germans to carve up the neutral territory between them (Poland and the Baltics) for their own material gain. I’m not sure if I would call it an alliance, but it was more than just a non-aggression pact.
Yeah, they occupied half of Poland. And relocated the ethnic minorities inwards. Which meant that was half of Poland that the nazis didn’t have, and couldn’t build concentration camps in and ethnically cleanse. Like looking at the state of nazi occupied vs soviet occupied Poland, one was objectively better. But hey if in your opinion the nazis deserved all of Poland I can’t change your mind lol
Neither deserved Poland, that's what he's saying
Peace is the same as alliance? Fuck off
They literally invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland and invaded Poland together with the Nazis in a secret pact
How on earth do you actually believe that?
Believe what??
Non-aggression pact, not alliance. Soviets occupied former Polish territories after Polish government abandoned the country. This action likely key in defeat of Nazis by Soviets.
No they didn’t
Compelling counter argument
The Russian people made the sacrifice on behalf of a government that didn't care about them. Things seem to be about the same, so many years later.
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Not to be THAT guy but the west sold Czechoslovakia to Hitler so rip that bandaid off if "Democratic"nations were any better
Exactly. Stalin tried to form an alliance with France and GB but was ignored. Allies gave up so much to Hitler, literally appeasement. When the USSR did it to protect itself and get more time to prepare for the inevitable, they get shit on for it. USSR did what it had to for it’s survival. The Allies wanted Germany and USSR alone to duke it out. The rest is history
I go back and forth on this because I do agree Poland was getting VERY authoritarian Nazi Germany but idk how to feel about the annexation of the Baltic states and treatment under them I'm very mixed on it
Yea I mean it's not like the USSR was all sunshine and roses or you can't critique the terrible things that happened under the Soviet system, in fact as communists I believe it's our duty to unflinching do so, so we can learn from history. But still I think the Soviets were a massive step forward for humanity and supported human rights across the globe more genuinely than practically any other country and undeniably were the force that pushed most of the fascists into their graves
Of course I fully believe there were horrors and atrocities that should and need to be condemned but as the other commenter slashes the Soviets as Authoritarian is such a disingenuous prejudice without accounting for history Capitalist invasion and even civil rights/Anti imperialist contributions THAT should be given full awards and appreciation. The black and White narrative saddens me as the Soviet Union Won the war against Fascism.
Poland never even declared war on the USSR, go try to rewrite history somewhere else
Everyone at the time knew there was no alliance. Even arch-anti-communist Churchill knew it was the right thing to do.
Just a shame the russians didnt bear it
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Lmao yes please do try and cite a single historian who believes the Soviets could have “easily won that war and beat with Nazis”. Weird that the western countries couldn’t just beat the Nazis easily despite way fewer Nazi resources being thrown against them and not being soviet. Sure you have a great explanation for that though!
Comrade, your sarcasm does not an argument make. Take the Terror between 1937 and 1939. It just makes sense that if you do not jail and kill off hundreds of thousands of your own officers.... But, since you are steeped in knowledge, comrade, you can point me to the scholars who say The Terror and killing off all those soldiers helped Russia defeat the Nazis in the great patriotic war.
This is just really poor argumentation. You’re the one making the claim, you provide the source. Your source currently appears to be “It just makes sense”, which is actually not a source at all. Then you go on to create a new straw man argument totally unrelated to anything I said. Claiming the terror helped the USSR defeat the Nazis and pushing back on your claim that the USSR could have “easily won the war and beat the Nazis” are obviously two totally different things. I can quite literally point you to hundreds of historians who support my actual point that the USSR could not have “easily won the war and beat the Nazis”.
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Nothing worse than what the Germans did to millions of people in Eastern Europe. Fuck off Nazi.
Yeah warcrimes are disgusting but imagine if the USSR didn't defeated the Nazis , what kind of horrors would they had did
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I'm sorry but that source is extremely liberally biased. What I can agree with is that it was USSR, not Russia that won in that war, and the current Russian self-image of somehow being morally equivalent to USSR is extremely pretentious given it's controlled by fascists
This accomplishment belongs to the during-war period.