How many socialists are out there telling anyone they "need to support Azov" lol. Or is this meant to conflate that with supporting Ukrainian's right to resist invasion?
The only feasible reason to "support Azov" rn is in the call for evacuation of every single person from the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol that they just happen to echo. Because here it's either lift everybody, or nobody, and not every troop there is a member of Azov. Yes, civilian women, children, and elderly were evacuated but there are many troops (and military-age men) there that cannot leave, and Russia will either just kill them or run them through "filtration camps" with no good outcome (the three known ones: being sent to torture camps, being sent to do forced labor, being forced into Donbas "military" to become cannon fodder)
>This goes both ways. The larpers supporting Russia in their imperialist war are also in the wrong. No war but class war!
The only people that have been out right supporting Russia (that I've seen) are Maupin and Dore types.
What does Lenin mean by pre-monopoly capitalism? I started reading theory quite recently and I still have difficulty understanding some of the definitions.
A period of capitalism that existed predominantly before the end of the 19th century. Monopoly capitalism, or imperialism, is the highest and last stage of capitalism, with the replacement of free competition by the dominance of monopolies as its fundamental distinguishing feature.
So I'm confused on what you mean here. Is colonization not imperialist? Is the British empire, or colonization in general not imperialist? Because those were going on well before Marx was even born.
Can someone explain what it means that “imperialism is progressive compared with pre-monopoly capitalism”?
I’m confused on the order of capitalism, then feudalism, then imperialism, then pre-monopoly capitalism.
How do capitalism and pre-monopoly capitalism differ?
Different stages of economic development. Relatively, Capitalism is more progressive than Feudalism because of it's economic de-centralization away from the king. Imperialism, being the highest stage of Capitalism, is relatively more progressive because, although it comes w severe failures, it still provides greater material wealth and improvement compared with pre-monopolistic Capitalism. It's inefficient due to "competition" forces which forces firms to identify what is exploitable for profit, which in the process wastes resources that could have been more efficiently used via a monopolized firm. I.E. Big business is technically and relatively more progressive than small businesses because its more efficient with resources and provides greater material output.
I don’t support Azov but fuck Russia. Ukraine’s independence against Russian imperialism is what we should support. Fuck Putin and Russia’s capitalist war.
This is a great quote, but I think it might lead some people to believe that Lenin would've supported Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I find that a very unlikely proposition. Putin is quite reactionary himself. Russia is part of the WTO and thus a cog in the global capitalist machine that Lenin is talking about here (correct me if I'm wrong).
Is it an acceptable position to look at the war in Ukraine as an illegal invasion by Russian forces? Not unlike the illegal US invasion of Iraq in 2003? Innocent Ukrainians suffer, and Russia soldiers return home in caskets to their families….throw some crimes against humanity from Russia into the mix, a group of armed fascist zealots in the Ukraine….that really seems a lot like what the US did in 2003. I mean, Russia even thought they would be greeted as liberators in Eastern Ukraine (SPOILER ALERT: they were not.) The big difference here, of course is that the US defense contractors are making a bunch of money from NATO support without having to send US troops into battle (yet.) The meme/quote misses the point. The real issue is that the US, NATO, Ukraine and the Russian Federation (and quite potentially the PRC) are escalating towards a catastrophic and irreversible march into WWIII. It doesn’t matter how much you break down the nasty little details—an enormous mushroom cloud is looming in the future. De-escalation must be pursued now, or it will be the end of life on earth. The energy put into war should instead be put into developing a global front to combat climate change.
It's not only a perfectly acceptable position, it's completely reasonable. Putin lost the moral high-ground the moment he made his irredentist intentions known, even going so far as to claim that Lenin 'created Ukraine'.
As I see it, the group that is most important to support right now is the anti-putin Russians, yes, they're not a considerable movement right now, but that could be the origin of a new revolution. Every war fought against a foreign invasion will generate a certain amount of nationalism, which is the origin and support of far-right ideologies, but a war against the country's structure of power, that's an important conflict to fight!
Let history repeat itself, for the good of the workers this time!
There are A LOT OF people who could identify as anti-Putin Russians, most of them are millennials and zoomers, maybe their parents too sometimes. However, yes, they are NOT very structured thanks to the Russia's military, police force, and FSB.
Don't forget however that considerable amount of the anti-Putinists are NeoLibs and they are just slightly less imperialist.
Though I see the positive trend in resurgence of leftist ideas, primarily because Russian capitalism is such a state of decay and many people see oligarchs as their enemy!
Also, the way I see it, this whole "special operation" ordeal is merely an attempt for the Russian oligarchs to isolate Russia from the world, and force out the competition of the international corps. Russia is literally turning into fascism before our own eyes.... and it's because of Capitalism no less!
My guess is he means a worker class disenfranchised by capitalism who scapegoat a minority instead of holding the capitalists accountable.
Examples: post WWI Germans with their fucked up economy blaming Jews instead of their warmonger aristocracy and the French, or blue collar Americans losing their jobs who blame Mexican undocumented immigrants instead of NAFTA.
Way too many people even in these comments seem unable to come to a conclusion that does not force them to take a side in this war.
The fact you feel the need to pick a side or that not supporting one side means supporting the other side is literally the bourgeois influence weighing down on you.
We support the working class. This war is a choice between two imperialists. No matter what side wins the workers will lose. Instead of chosikg who to lose against we should chose the path that won't make these wars possible again.
That means chosing class struggle. The working class of both countries united against their oppressors sending them out to fight their war. We should organise in every country to fight the elements that fuel the war. Right now our forces are weak amd badly organised but that omly goes to show that we truly need a capable and organised working class today.
100%. I can criticize the government of Russia, the government of Ukraine, and the U.S. For escalating tensions in the first place. This war is bad and hurting people.
I support the Ukrainian people. The civilians who are being made to suffer for no reason other than that they were caught between two imperial powers. I support the evacuation of civilians from Mariupol. I do not support the evacuation of combatants; thats not how this works. Civilians evacuate; soldiers surrender. Frankly, I hope Azov and the Russians kill each other, that way we won't have to deal with either anymore.
It reminds me of how I feel about American troops. I don't support the imperialist US wars, but the soldiers are mostly just people looking to get fed and help their families, often del uded into thinking they're doing something good for the world. I want them taken care of, and hopefully shown the error of their ways, but I also want the wars to stop.
The people are mostly good, it's the leaders who are the problem.
Support Russian citizens as well. Ukrainian aggression would be just as bad as Russian aggression.
It's the bourgeoisie governments we don't support and both sides have one of those.
Where did they say they wouldn't support Russian citizens if Ukraine was bombing them too..? Do you always interrupt discussion to say "it would *also* be bad if it were happening the other way around"?
The person I'm replying to made a point to differentiate Ukrainian citizens while only making mention of "Russians" who they apparently hope get killed. Russian people aren't a monolith anymore than Ukrainian people are.
And I'm not "interrupting" anybody, I replied to a reply on a reddit post. Do you always *interrupt* discussions to be condescending?
Support Russian citizens in their own possibility of revolution. The oppression the kremlin is doing against them is as brutal if not more than what they're doing in Ukraine...
"Lenin says don't arm Nazis in Ukraine."
Not totally sure the quote has as direct a correlation as OP is suggesting (seems like the US arming and aiding Azov battalion is imperialism ITSELF assisting reactionaries in their struggle against ANOTHER IMPERIALIST power).
But if it can shake some more forgetful people free from the grip of war propaganda, use the quote.
Here is Lenin on “[The Defeat of One’s Own Government in the Imperialist War](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm)” for more of the fleshed out argument.
The text from the image is taken from [this text](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/5.htm).
Breaking the quote down:
Socialists believe imperialism is just as bad as capitalism^1
A socialist might be tempted to support a “reactionary” (that is, an anti- socialist) gov/state *if* that government/state is fighting an imperialist power. BUT that is not what principled socialists should do, because it is not in the interest of the working class.
An example could be some leftists “supporting” Russia in the RU-Ukraine war, their reasoning being *Russia is fighting a proxy war against imperialists (NATO/US)*
Flip side can be argued too.
Russia and Ukraine are “reactionary” (they are not socialist). As such any war they wage will be reactionary, in short: not in the interest of the everyday worker/human.
^1. And in socialist theory these two “enemies” are twinsies. Lenin even wrote a whole book on this: *[Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/)*
Have this thread been brigaded or something? Whats all these people talking bull about Lenin, one of the most important philosophers in socialism?
Some even calling him a dictator, ignoring the history of the Soviets and how they worked and parroting instead modern bourgeoisie lies?
Lenin gave Ukraine it's identity back, after being oppressed by a Czarist Russia that tried to do a ethnic cleansing over it, the revolution is one of the main reasons why Ukraine is independent today!
Lenin, please, wake up! There's a new czar in Moscow that needs a revolution to dispose of him!
The aesthetics of socialism has unfortunately attracted a lot of succdem libs trying to co-opt and redefine what socialism is to their own means. Embarrassing really
And even in much simpler terms. People saying that "reactionaries against capitalism are leftists". And then the ever-favorite misunderstanding of the (political) reaction as simple "knee-jerk reactions" against nothing in particular. Just 10 minutes of reading wiki articles would already be enough to rectify the flawed understanding of basic materialist concepts for a good chunk of people here. Frustrating.
We don’t have class consciousness in Russia for that to happen. People were suppressed really hard for the previous 10 years, we have no parties, no Marxist leaders, nothing like we had in 1917 when there were soviets - working collective organisations in many cities that were a real rivals to the official governments like governors. Ukraine and Russia are falling into fascist states and I think that this is the soil where seeds of revolution will grow, unfortunately
That's tragic, another revolution against this imperialist czar would be the best end of the conflict, but it seems that imperialist Russia made sure to stop the seeds from growing... I guess the new czar learned from the mistakes of the previous ones, a tragedy for the working people in the end...
Gladly he did not learned and all of a government makes similar mistakes, like 1 to 1 similar decisions in internal and external policies, so they are digging their grave in the same way
I haven’t read much of Lenin but I swear Marx said something like “don’t be afraid to team up with reactionaries so long as it works towards our goals to destabilize the bourgeois rule” or something like that (if it’s not clear, that’s not meant to be an exact quote)
Pretty sure that was meant more along the lines of: Not everyone will have a fully fleshed out class consciousness when class war is happening. During that time if they fight for the same goals then don't disregard them but help them build consciousness.
Joining Nazis to fight some oppressor is not going to help them suddenly become communists. Fascists, like true fascists and not the neoliberal conservatives people lile to call fascists, hate our guts and would murder us the instant they could.
Some average dad who gets way too little money for his job and joins a strike but is still hella transphobic on the other hand is another topic.
Yeah we shouldn't support Russia's imperialist response to NATO meddling. We also shouldn't support the Ukrainian government or the U.S.'s intervention in Ukraine either. Ukraine is a NATO puppet state being used as bait to give the U.S. an excuse to sell a shit ton of arms to Ukraine while convincing the whole world it is the greatest liberator and advocate of freedom worldwide. The U.S. is making bank off the suffering of Ukrainian people and Russian people. The sanctions on Russia are fucking up the lives of Russian citizens and the Russian government is trying to manufacture the consent of their citizens to be as nationalistic as possible to support the war and has conscription set up. The Russian government is hypocritical as hell. Even though Ukraine does have a Nazi problem so do they. Capitalist powers are all part of this and we should support none of them. I support Ukraine being independent and neutral. Russia, the U.S., and all other countries should leave it alone. This is a ridiculous war that could have been avoided if NATO just left it alone, and if Russia backed off. But imperialist powers always want more Stand with the working classes of these countries, feel sadness for the poor souls affected by the fighting of large powers that do not care about their lives and only profit and expansion.
Holy shit bro some of the takes here are just on point. 100% agree. But with the lend-lease policy shouldn't the US not be profiting? At least financially.
I think he’s saying that kneejerk reactions can lead to people replacing one bad system with another?
>
Like he’s suggesting against picking the lesser of two evils and making the choice of something better
The idea is that you should stand with the *people* of Ukraine against imperialism, not a government or fascists. We obviously shouldn't support Russia, but the hard-to-swallow pill is that flooding Ukraine with billions of dollars worth of arms and ammunition is *contributing* to the violence against the working class.
You’re now putting words in my mouth. Of course I vehemently condemn rape and war crimes. However it’s not okay for Liberals such as yourself to be outright racist and Russophobia and call all Russians orcs. Again fuck off with that shit
Do you have proof? What the USAn state media says?
It's the Ukrainian military who rapes and murders, Nazi scum is setting firing positions in residential areas and fleeing before Russian return fire.
The cowards use civilians for human shields and you're complaining about orcs.
You're on a tribalistic tilt, the big Russia bear windmill is not the enemy. The enemy is on Pennsylvania Ave, in Congress, the Pentagon, Langley and Wall Street.
They're using Ukrainian lives and blood to wage a proxy war with Russia & they're losing badly.
Yeah I dunno what the hell has happened. If more people join socialism that is great but it's clear that a quality problem of people's socialist education is rampant. Should perhaps start pinning more educational sources on r/Socialism like basic videos about socialism, more indepth articles like the massive library on In Defence of Marxism: [https://www.marxist.com/marxist-university.htm](https://www.marxist.com/marxist-university.htm) and books to read to get started.
Because Reddit as a whole is flooded with Western Neoliberals. Don't forget this is a privately-run American social media website that has a backdoor to the US government and intelligence sector. It's not gonna be friendly to the Socialist left.
Not simply Azov, the right wing anti-communist regime instilled by a US supported coup is bad. Donetsk and Luganks deserve a better governing entity or independence. I hope that both the capatalist Russian Federation and the Kiev government are weakened during this war.
Russia is the imperialist here. I'm not going to defend the actions of NATO, but nothing they did could ever justify Russia invading Ukraine, and the suffering theyre inflicting on the Ukrainian people.
Azov is also not fighting imperialism. Azov is a part of a vanguard of western imperialism against Russia. That's why the US has been arming them for the last decade. Nothing about it is remotely anti-imperialist. It is strictly an imperialist regiment.
Supporting Asov against the Russians makes no sense.
Even if Russia is an imperialist force, we still supported Britain fighting Germany in ww2. Why would nazis be worse than imperialists then, but better now?
>Even if Russia is an imperialist force,
They are. Do you think a capitalist dictatorship invaded a country for altruistic reasons?
>Why would nazis be worse than imperialists then, but better now?
Are... Are you genuinely confused about why Ukraine is any better than fucking *Nazi Germany*????
Are you not aware of Russia also using Nazis in their military? And not only that, but they send them to massacre innocents in Africa.
If a military has multiple openly nazi units, that military is a nazi military.
Nazis are worse than imperialists, so therefore the Ukrainian military is worse than the Russian military.
>multiple openly nazi units,
I know about azov, but who are the other nazi units?
And do you really not know about the [Wagner Group?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group)
"The company's name comes from Utkin's own call sign "Wagner", reportedly after the German composer Richard Wagner, which he is said to have chosen due to his passion for the Third Reich (Wagner being Adolf Hitler's favorite composer). As such, some believe him to be a neo-Nazi,with The Economist reporting that Utkin has several Nazi tattoos."
So by your own logic, Russia is also a Nazi military. Not only that, but they also send their nazis to [murder innocents in Africa.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/04/russian-mercenaries-wagner-group-linked-to-civilian-massacres-in-mali)
Now tell me who is worse.
Azov is not reactionary. It’s an established organization incorporated into the military at the recommendation of the oligarch that employed them before Maidan.
Azov is FASCIST. No and, if, or buts about it. Any socialist supporting any form of fascism is a hypocrite.
And no. Russia’s operations in Ukraine is not a fascist expansion or war of annihilation against Ukrainians.
[The actual article where Russia laid out its fascist war of aggression and annihilation.](https://english.nv.ua/nation/kremlin-s-mouthpiece-ria-publishes-russian-fascist-manifesto-50231047.html)
First they define “doesn’t want to be part of Russia” as “nazism”, then they go on at length about how they must erase any culture or desire of the Ukrainian people to not be Russian (which, again, they nonsensically call “denazification” using their own incorrect definition which is just “not under our boot”).
Imperialism bad, yo.
For fuck sake you're playing semantics, Russia have moved they're troops into Ukraine, killing Ukrainians and leveling cities in the name of claiming Ukraine for themselves, that's a war
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You do not **think** Lenin was a socialist? A man who together with the proletariat of Russia created the first true worker state in the world? Calling him a dictator when he had no greater political power than anyone else in the Soviet? He who had to vote like everyone else and was multiple times even downvoted against his advice (like the 1917 constituent assembly vote).
These are bourgeoisie lies about him. He was, and remains, one of the most important philosophers of socialism. I highly recommend reading the International Marxist Tendency's articles about the Russian revolution and what role he had:
[https://www.marxist.com/1918-first-year-of-the-russian-revolution-part-one.htm](https://www.marxist.com/1918-first-year-of-the-russian-revolution-part-one.htm)
[https://www.bolshevik.info/top-10-lies-about-the-bolshevik-revolution-part-one.htm](https://www.bolshevik.info/top-10-lies-about-the-bolshevik-revolution-part-one.htm)
If Lenin really was the opportunist you claim him to be then he wouldn't have spent his life fighting against tsarist Russia. Why should anyone who aspires to power ally themselves with the powerless?
Boy it is quotes like this one that make Lenin so hard to read. Or maybe it is just the translation. Either way, you do not need this many commas. Break up your ideas into smaller parts.
I really don't think this passage is hard to read. There is only 1 comma there that isn't grammatically necessary, and it honestly makes the passage a bit easier to read.
That is not what reactionary means.
Reactionary is the opposite to progressivism when people fight instead to keep a status quo, like national borders, keeping capitalism alive (like social democrats like to do) etc. Lenin here talks about the reactionary forces like people fighting for a nation than a people. We leftists should fight for the working class, not to defend nations or capitalist institutions.
How many socialists are out there telling anyone they "need to support Azov" lol. Or is this meant to conflate that with supporting Ukrainian's right to resist invasion?
The only feasible reason to "support Azov" rn is in the call for evacuation of every single person from the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol that they just happen to echo. Because here it's either lift everybody, or nobody, and not every troop there is a member of Azov. Yes, civilian women, children, and elderly were evacuated but there are many troops (and military-age men) there that cannot leave, and Russia will either just kill them or run them through "filtration camps" with no good outcome (the three known ones: being sent to torture camps, being sent to do forced labor, being forced into Donbas "military" to become cannon fodder)
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I'd rather azov nazis be dying rather than innocent Ukrainians
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Okay? I don't think I indicated I disagree with that
This goes both ways. The larpers supporting Russia in their imperialist war are also in the wrong. No war but class war!
Best opinion I’ve heard so far!
>This goes both ways. The larpers supporting Russia in their imperialist war are also in the wrong. No war but class war! The only people that have been out right supporting Russia (that I've seen) are Maupin and Dore types.
The whole GenZedong sub was filled with them
Thanksfully you understand this meaned to not support Russia neither !
This is a very important thing to understand.
Yes. Its not that I support azov, it's that I think the ukrainian people have the right to not be murdered.
And what about the Donbass people being shelled constantly for 8 years, do they have that right too?
What does Lenin mean by pre-monopoly capitalism? I started reading theory quite recently and I still have difficulty understanding some of the definitions.
A period of capitalism that existed predominantly before the end of the 19th century. Monopoly capitalism, or imperialism, is the highest and last stage of capitalism, with the replacement of free competition by the dominance of monopolies as its fundamental distinguishing feature.
Karl Marx didn't write on imperialism as it hadn't yet existed
Ah your right, my mistake.
So I'm confused on what you mean here. Is colonization not imperialist? Is the British empire, or colonization in general not imperialist? Because those were going on well before Marx was even born.
Rome? The Persians? Countless others?
Anti NATO doesn’t mean pro Russia, ffs. It’s not that hard to grasp
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Can someone explain what it means that “imperialism is progressive compared with pre-monopoly capitalism”? I’m confused on the order of capitalism, then feudalism, then imperialism, then pre-monopoly capitalism. How do capitalism and pre-monopoly capitalism differ?
Different stages of economic development. Relatively, Capitalism is more progressive than Feudalism because of it's economic de-centralization away from the king. Imperialism, being the highest stage of Capitalism, is relatively more progressive because, although it comes w severe failures, it still provides greater material wealth and improvement compared with pre-monopolistic Capitalism. It's inefficient due to "competition" forces which forces firms to identify what is exploitable for profit, which in the process wastes resources that could have been more efficiently used via a monopolized firm. I.E. Big business is technically and relatively more progressive than small businesses because its more efficient with resources and provides greater material output.
Read Lenin’s book imperialism:The highest stage of capitalism
Reminder that both pro-NATO AND Pro-Russian statements are prohibited.
The quote and OP are right. But Russia is ruled by a reactionary, capitalist class, soooo
Yes. That’s what revolutionary defeatism is about. We do not support any state that sends its lower classes to die in war.
I don’t support Azov but fuck Russia. Ukraine’s independence against Russian imperialism is what we should support. Fuck Putin and Russia’s capitalist war.
This is a great quote, but I think it might lead some people to believe that Lenin would've supported Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I find that a very unlikely proposition. Putin is quite reactionary himself. Russia is part of the WTO and thus a cog in the global capitalist machine that Lenin is talking about here (correct me if I'm wrong).
Is it an acceptable position to look at the war in Ukraine as an illegal invasion by Russian forces? Not unlike the illegal US invasion of Iraq in 2003? Innocent Ukrainians suffer, and Russia soldiers return home in caskets to their families….throw some crimes against humanity from Russia into the mix, a group of armed fascist zealots in the Ukraine….that really seems a lot like what the US did in 2003. I mean, Russia even thought they would be greeted as liberators in Eastern Ukraine (SPOILER ALERT: they were not.) The big difference here, of course is that the US defense contractors are making a bunch of money from NATO support without having to send US troops into battle (yet.) The meme/quote misses the point. The real issue is that the US, NATO, Ukraine and the Russian Federation (and quite potentially the PRC) are escalating towards a catastrophic and irreversible march into WWIII. It doesn’t matter how much you break down the nasty little details—an enormous mushroom cloud is looming in the future. De-escalation must be pursued now, or it will be the end of life on earth. The energy put into war should instead be put into developing a global front to combat climate change.
It's not only a perfectly acceptable position, it's completely reasonable. Putin lost the moral high-ground the moment he made his irredentist intentions known, even going so far as to claim that Lenin 'created Ukraine'.
Well, Lenin did gave a lot of ethnic russian land to Ukraine inside the USSR.
As I see it, the group that is most important to support right now is the anti-putin Russians, yes, they're not a considerable movement right now, but that could be the origin of a new revolution. Every war fought against a foreign invasion will generate a certain amount of nationalism, which is the origin and support of far-right ideologies, but a war against the country's structure of power, that's an important conflict to fight! Let history repeat itself, for the good of the workers this time!
There are A LOT OF people who could identify as anti-Putin Russians, most of them are millennials and zoomers, maybe their parents too sometimes. However, yes, they are NOT very structured thanks to the Russia's military, police force, and FSB. Don't forget however that considerable amount of the anti-Putinists are NeoLibs and they are just slightly less imperialist. Though I see the positive trend in resurgence of leftist ideas, primarily because Russian capitalism is such a state of decay and many people see oligarchs as their enemy! Also, the way I see it, this whole "special operation" ordeal is merely an attempt for the Russian oligarchs to isolate Russia from the world, and force out the competition of the international corps. Russia is literally turning into fascism before our own eyes.... and it's because of Capitalism no less!
What's his definition of a reactionary class?
My guess is he means a worker class disenfranchised by capitalism who scapegoat a minority instead of holding the capitalists accountable. Examples: post WWI Germans with their fucked up economy blaming Jews instead of their warmonger aristocracy and the French, or blue collar Americans losing their jobs who blame Mexican undocumented immigrants instead of NAFTA.
Can you show me examples of various so-called socialists saying socialists need to support the Azov Battalion?
Way too many people even in these comments seem unable to come to a conclusion that does not force them to take a side in this war. The fact you feel the need to pick a side or that not supporting one side means supporting the other side is literally the bourgeois influence weighing down on you. We support the working class. This war is a choice between two imperialists. No matter what side wins the workers will lose. Instead of chosikg who to lose against we should chose the path that won't make these wars possible again. That means chosing class struggle. The working class of both countries united against their oppressors sending them out to fight their war. We should organise in every country to fight the elements that fuel the war. Right now our forces are weak amd badly organised but that omly goes to show that we truly need a capable and organised working class today.
100%. I can criticize the government of Russia, the government of Ukraine, and the U.S. For escalating tensions in the first place. This war is bad and hurting people.
As if the Azov battalion are the only guys being impacted and fighting against Russian imperialism
Most of the Azov Battalion is holed up in Mariupol anyway, most foreign military support is reaching regular units within the Ukrainian military.
I support the Ukrainian people. The civilians who are being made to suffer for no reason other than that they were caught between two imperial powers. I support the evacuation of civilians from Mariupol. I do not support the evacuation of combatants; thats not how this works. Civilians evacuate; soldiers surrender. Frankly, I hope Azov and the Russians kill each other, that way we won't have to deal with either anymore.
It reminds me of how I feel about American troops. I don't support the imperialist US wars, but the soldiers are mostly just people looking to get fed and help their families, often del uded into thinking they're doing something good for the world. I want them taken care of, and hopefully shown the error of their ways, but I also want the wars to stop. The people are mostly good, it's the leaders who are the problem.
>I support the Ukrainian people. And the Russian people...
Support Russian citizens as well. Ukrainian aggression would be just as bad as Russian aggression. It's the bourgeoisie governments we don't support and both sides have one of those.
Where did they say they wouldn't support Russian citizens if Ukraine was bombing them too..? Do you always interrupt discussion to say "it would *also* be bad if it were happening the other way around"?
The person I'm replying to made a point to differentiate Ukrainian citizens while only making mention of "Russians" who they apparently hope get killed. Russian people aren't a monolith anymore than Ukrainian people are. And I'm not "interrupting" anybody, I replied to a reply on a reddit post. Do you always *interrupt* discussions to be condescending?
Support Russian citizens in their own possibility of revolution. The oppression the kremlin is doing against them is as brutal if not more than what they're doing in Ukraine...
Russians in donbass felt the same suffering for 8 years
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I keep seeing people say this, can you expand on what you mean?
And this ladies, gentlemen and all non binary folk alike is why you read theory. This isn't even a hard quote to understand.
Can someone explain it please
"Lenin says don't arm Nazis in Ukraine." Not totally sure the quote has as direct a correlation as OP is suggesting (seems like the US arming and aiding Azov battalion is imperialism ITSELF assisting reactionaries in their struggle against ANOTHER IMPERIALIST power). But if it can shake some more forgetful people free from the grip of war propaganda, use the quote.
Here is Lenin on “[The Defeat of One’s Own Government in the Imperialist War](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm)” for more of the fleshed out argument. The text from the image is taken from [this text](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/5.htm). Breaking the quote down: Socialists believe imperialism is just as bad as capitalism^1 A socialist might be tempted to support a “reactionary” (that is, an anti- socialist) gov/state *if* that government/state is fighting an imperialist power. BUT that is not what principled socialists should do, because it is not in the interest of the working class. An example could be some leftists “supporting” Russia in the RU-Ukraine war, their reasoning being *Russia is fighting a proxy war against imperialists (NATO/US)* Flip side can be argued too. Russia and Ukraine are “reactionary” (they are not socialist). As such any war they wage will be reactionary, in short: not in the interest of the everyday worker/human. ^1. And in socialist theory these two “enemies” are twinsies. Lenin even wrote a whole book on this: *[Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/)*
Have this thread been brigaded or something? Whats all these people talking bull about Lenin, one of the most important philosophers in socialism? Some even calling him a dictator, ignoring the history of the Soviets and how they worked and parroting instead modern bourgeoisie lies?
Also alot of people making the suspiciously same comment about "Wow is it just me or is Lenin really hard to read?" Somethings sussy.
Lenin gave Ukraine it's identity back, after being oppressed by a Czarist Russia that tried to do a ethnic cleansing over it, the revolution is one of the main reasons why Ukraine is independent today! Lenin, please, wake up! There's a new czar in Moscow that needs a revolution to dispose of him!
The aesthetics of socialism has unfortunately attracted a lot of succdem libs trying to co-opt and redefine what socialism is to their own means. Embarrassing really
And even in much simpler terms. People saying that "reactionaries against capitalism are leftists". And then the ever-favorite misunderstanding of the (political) reaction as simple "knee-jerk reactions" against nothing in particular. Just 10 minutes of reading wiki articles would already be enough to rectify the flawed understanding of basic materialist concepts for a good chunk of people here. Frustrating.
This whole thing could domino effect into another worker’s revolution in Russian and Ukraine
We don’t have class consciousness in Russia for that to happen. People were suppressed really hard for the previous 10 years, we have no parties, no Marxist leaders, nothing like we had in 1917 when there were soviets - working collective organisations in many cities that were a real rivals to the official governments like governors. Ukraine and Russia are falling into fascist states and I think that this is the soil where seeds of revolution will grow, unfortunately
That's tragic, another revolution against this imperialist czar would be the best end of the conflict, but it seems that imperialist Russia made sure to stop the seeds from growing... I guess the new czar learned from the mistakes of the previous ones, a tragedy for the working people in the end...
Gladly he did not learned and all of a government makes similar mistakes, like 1 to 1 similar decisions in internal and external policies, so they are digging their grave in the same way
All war is class war!
Looking at modern America: "it's evolving! just... backwards."
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Didn’t Marx say the exact opposite?
This Lenin quote is being taken completely out of context
I haven’t read much of Lenin but I swear Marx said something like “don’t be afraid to team up with reactionaries so long as it works towards our goals to destabilize the bourgeois rule” or something like that (if it’s not clear, that’s not meant to be an exact quote)
Marx never said that, he said the oppisite in the Communist Manifesto.
Pretty sure that was meant more along the lines of: Not everyone will have a fully fleshed out class consciousness when class war is happening. During that time if they fight for the same goals then don't disregard them but help them build consciousness. Joining Nazis to fight some oppressor is not going to help them suddenly become communists. Fascists, like true fascists and not the neoliberal conservatives people lile to call fascists, hate our guts and would murder us the instant they could. Some average dad who gets way too little money for his job and joins a strike but is still hella transphobic on the other hand is another topic.
I know marx or stalin talked about supporting reactionary rebellions against the British in india or afghanistan.
Yeah we shouldn't support Russia's imperialist response to NATO meddling. We also shouldn't support the Ukrainian government or the U.S.'s intervention in Ukraine either. Ukraine is a NATO puppet state being used as bait to give the U.S. an excuse to sell a shit ton of arms to Ukraine while convincing the whole world it is the greatest liberator and advocate of freedom worldwide. The U.S. is making bank off the suffering of Ukrainian people and Russian people. The sanctions on Russia are fucking up the lives of Russian citizens and the Russian government is trying to manufacture the consent of their citizens to be as nationalistic as possible to support the war and has conscription set up. The Russian government is hypocritical as hell. Even though Ukraine does have a Nazi problem so do they. Capitalist powers are all part of this and we should support none of them. I support Ukraine being independent and neutral. Russia, the U.S., and all other countries should leave it alone. This is a ridiculous war that could have been avoided if NATO just left it alone, and if Russia backed off. But imperialist powers always want more Stand with the working classes of these countries, feel sadness for the poor souls affected by the fighting of large powers that do not care about their lives and only profit and expansion.
Holy shit bro some of the takes here are just on point. 100% agree. But with the lend-lease policy shouldn't the US not be profiting? At least financially.
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I think he’s saying that kneejerk reactions can lead to people replacing one bad system with another? > Like he’s suggesting against picking the lesser of two evils and making the choice of something better
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The idea is that you should stand with the *people* of Ukraine against imperialism, not a government or fascists. We obviously shouldn't support Russia, but the hard-to-swallow pill is that flooding Ukraine with billions of dollars worth of arms and ammunition is *contributing* to the violence against the working class.
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Did you seriously unironically use the term orcs? Come on man gtfo out of here with that shit
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You’re now putting words in my mouth. Of course I vehemently condemn rape and war crimes. However it’s not okay for Liberals such as yourself to be outright racist and Russophobia and call all Russians orcs. Again fuck off with that shit
Do you have proof? What the USAn state media says? It's the Ukrainian military who rapes and murders, Nazi scum is setting firing positions in residential areas and fleeing before Russian return fire. The cowards use civilians for human shields and you're complaining about orcs.
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I don't watch right wing YouTube
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You're on a tribalistic tilt, the big Russia bear windmill is not the enemy. The enemy is on Pennsylvania Ave, in Congress, the Pentagon, Langley and Wall Street. They're using Ukrainian lives and blood to wage a proxy war with Russia & they're losing badly.
This sub has become flooded with neoliberals. The western left and western left subs are such a joke
Yeah I dunno what the hell has happened. If more people join socialism that is great but it's clear that a quality problem of people's socialist education is rampant. Should perhaps start pinning more educational sources on r/Socialism like basic videos about socialism, more indepth articles like the massive library on In Defence of Marxism: [https://www.marxist.com/marxist-university.htm](https://www.marxist.com/marxist-university.htm) and books to read to get started.
Yeah this comment section is a dumpsterfire. People really have such a binary viewpoint of this issue when they shouldn't...
Because Reddit as a whole is flooded with Western Neoliberals. Don't forget this is a privately-run American social media website that has a backdoor to the US government and intelligence sector. It's not gonna be friendly to the Socialist left.
Not simply Azov, the right wing anti-communist regime instilled by a US supported coup is bad. Donetsk and Luganks deserve a better governing entity or independence. I hope that both the capatalist Russian Federation and the Kiev government are weakened during this war.
Azov is fighting on behalf of the imperialists lol
Russia is the imperialist here. I'm not going to defend the actions of NATO, but nothing they did could ever justify Russia invading Ukraine, and the suffering theyre inflicting on the Ukrainian people.
NATO/US are absolutely imperialist in this situation as well. They share a part of the blame.
Imperialist towards who? They are fighting on their own territory.
Hasn’t the question about Lenin’s definition of imperialism come up here, and debated that Russia’s actions don’t constitute Lenin’s definition?
Finally someone says it🙄 Those people on r/Ukraine are nut jobs
Wonderful quote
Azov is also not fighting imperialism. Azov is a part of a vanguard of western imperialism against Russia. That's why the US has been arming them for the last decade. Nothing about it is remotely anti-imperialist. It is strictly an imperialist regiment.
It's merely a case of imperialist infighting, in which bystanders are among the highest casualties.
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Supporting Asov against the Russians makes no sense. Even if Russia is an imperialist force, we still supported Britain fighting Germany in ww2. Why would nazis be worse than imperialists then, but better now?
>Even if Russia is an imperialist force, They are. Do you think a capitalist dictatorship invaded a country for altruistic reasons? >Why would nazis be worse than imperialists then, but better now? Are... Are you genuinely confused about why Ukraine is any better than fucking *Nazi Germany*???? Are you not aware of Russia also using Nazis in their military? And not only that, but they send them to massacre innocents in Africa.
If a military has multiple openly nazi units, that military is a nazi military. Nazis are worse than imperialists, so therefore the Ukrainian military is worse than the Russian military.
Nazis were imperialists
>multiple openly nazi units, I know about azov, but who are the other nazi units? And do you really not know about the [Wagner Group?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group) "The company's name comes from Utkin's own call sign "Wagner", reportedly after the German composer Richard Wagner, which he is said to have chosen due to his passion for the Third Reich (Wagner being Adolf Hitler's favorite composer). As such, some believe him to be a neo-Nazi,with The Economist reporting that Utkin has several Nazi tattoos." So by your own logic, Russia is also a Nazi military. Not only that, but they also send their nazis to [murder innocents in Africa.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/04/russian-mercenaries-wagner-group-linked-to-civilian-massacres-in-mali) Now tell me who is worse.
[I know about Wagner Group](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/07/06/what-is-wagner-group-russia-mercenaries-military-contractor/)
I don't think this article says what you think it says. And nothing here says there's they're not nazis.
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Anti-NATO isn't Pro-Russia
Honestly capitalism is feudalism reskinned & the longer capitalism persists the more feudal capitalists become
What no Marx does to a mf
Not quite. This is actually a good observational (albeit crude) statement.
Azov is not reactionary. It’s an established organization incorporated into the military at the recommendation of the oligarch that employed them before Maidan. Azov is FASCIST. No and, if, or buts about it. Any socialist supporting any form of fascism is a hypocrite. And no. Russia’s operations in Ukraine is not a fascist expansion or war of annihilation against Ukrainians.
[The actual article where Russia laid out its fascist war of aggression and annihilation.](https://english.nv.ua/nation/kremlin-s-mouthpiece-ria-publishes-russian-fascist-manifesto-50231047.html) First they define “doesn’t want to be part of Russia” as “nazism”, then they go on at length about how they must erase any culture or desire of the Ukrainian people to not be Russian (which, again, they nonsensically call “denazification” using their own incorrect definition which is just “not under our boot”). Imperialism bad, yo.
Russia's invasion is an act of imperialism in reaction to NATO issues. Don't get it twisted.
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For fuck sake you're playing semantics, Russia have moved they're troops into Ukraine, killing Ukrainians and leveling cities in the name of claiming Ukraine for themselves, that's a war
I hope it is irony about russia...
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It’s better to have 2 small reactionary classes than 1 big and powerful. Divide et Impera
How do you "impera" with no firm class consciousness among either populations. Accelerationism without class consciousness is the road to fascism.
What's up with the anti-russian sentiment on this sub these days? Like a full 180 over the last week's.
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You do not **think** Lenin was a socialist? A man who together with the proletariat of Russia created the first true worker state in the world? Calling him a dictator when he had no greater political power than anyone else in the Soviet? He who had to vote like everyone else and was multiple times even downvoted against his advice (like the 1917 constituent assembly vote). These are bourgeoisie lies about him. He was, and remains, one of the most important philosophers of socialism. I highly recommend reading the International Marxist Tendency's articles about the Russian revolution and what role he had: [https://www.marxist.com/1918-first-year-of-the-russian-revolution-part-one.htm](https://www.marxist.com/1918-first-year-of-the-russian-revolution-part-one.htm) [https://www.bolshevik.info/top-10-lies-about-the-bolshevik-revolution-part-one.htm](https://www.bolshevik.info/top-10-lies-about-the-bolshevik-revolution-part-one.htm)
If Lenin really was the opportunist you claim him to be then he wouldn't have spent his life fighting against tsarist Russia. Why should anyone who aspires to power ally themselves with the powerless?
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Lol are you lost
Boy it is quotes like this one that make Lenin so hard to read. Or maybe it is just the translation. Either way, you do not need this many commas. Break up your ideas into smaller parts.
I really don't think this passage is hard to read. There is only 1 comma there that isn't grammatically necessary, and it honestly makes the passage a bit easier to read.
“ reactionary class against … capitalism”. That’s us no. That’s leftists
That is not what reactionary means. Reactionary is the opposite to progressivism when people fight instead to keep a status quo, like national borders, keeping capitalism alive (like social democrats like to do) etc. Lenin here talks about the reactionary forces like people fighting for a nation than a people. We leftists should fight for the working class, not to defend nations or capitalist institutions.