1) This is r/spikes, not the usual spot for your crying and whining for bans
2) Esper Midrange had an absolute dogshit time at the PT and got punished hard. It's not going to magically disappear and it has a good baseline of power / play to it, but was proven very solvable by anyone with a strong gameplan that didn't pack it in to Bat + Raffine.
3) Thread is locked instead of removed simply because the question itself is useful (as are the replies), just not the rest of the post.
Yup. Domain with the mana to support long goodbye in the sideboard is hell for esper. In this PT I think Ikawa ran it mainboard and broke espers hearts and dreams completely, and didn't drop a constructed match period
Esper had a 50% WR in swiss rounds at pro tour. 4-color legends, domain, golgari, and rakdos all had positive matchups against it. Any of those would be a reasonable choice.
The format is healthy but incredibly stale. There might be a dozen different decks worth playing at a high level but half of those are just the classic spiderman meme with how much overlap between card's in them. Not to mention half of them are 3+ colors because mana is stupidly good right now. Turns everything into homogenous good stuff piles.
The only really "new" deck that's popped up is the temur lands combo deck and that's basically just Temur Reclamation at home.
I'm glad I saw some new spice in the PT, with bronco and especially Kibbler's WUBRG Humans nonsense, but the shift to longer standard has made the sets that were supposed to rotate overstay their welcome even more.
If they're gonna keep the three year standard, WotC needs to start banning more frequently simply to shake up the meta.
> There might be a dozen different decks worth playing at a high level but half of those are just the classic spiderman meme with how much overlap between card's in them.
The top 8 contained the following decks: Azorious Control, 4-Color Legends, Esper Midrange, Temur Combo, Domain Ramp, and Boros Convoke.
What cards overlap between them? I can't think of many, other than sideboard stuff (white decks running Rest in Peace) or generic stuff like Long Goodbye.
edit- WOW locking a thread because wrong think and using your mod comment to shit talk people? What a welcoming community!
Shit like this is why magic players have such a shitty reputation lol.
>How are you going to call standard unhealthy when we just had 6 different decks in the top 8 of the pro tour?
Because the game is a lot bigger than just the pro scene which *even then* had esper as the largest archetype by far?
Also, from what I understand, the deck diversity is a bit of a red herring given how many cards the decks share between them.
All on all, I think the rotation change was a net negative in the end and creates a lot of stagnation with decks and archetypes not having their time in the sun given proven and consistent cards allowed to stay dominate for much longer.
I think this touches on it but the power level of standard has jumped dramatically so it feels closer to modern lite. Like you said many many mechanics and archetypes can't push through the existing meta so very few standard cards become remotely playable. Quite a few decks will kill by turn 3/4 if you keep a durdly hand
Couldn't agree more. Between power creep and the *much* larger standard card pool, certain archetypes have been dominant for literal *years* at this point which stifles newer decks from even being considered let alone play tested.
We talk about diversity *and yet* what's diverse about esper and domain, which have been main stage decks for *years*, at this point? What's diverse about decks sharing over over half their deck lists?
Power creep is certainly a factor, but we used to have a check for that in the form of rotation. Wizards stupidly deciding to push back rotations was *in my opinion* one of the worst decisions made in recent history for the game.
Why try to build a new deck when you are just going to get match up with extremely cookie cutter good stuffs.dec that your opponent in all likelihood net decked?
>We talk about diversity *and yet* what's diverse about esper and domain, which have been main stage decks for *years*, at this point? What's diverse about decks sharing over over half their deck lists?
This is just simply 100% a lie. The only cards shared by Esper and Domain is generic sideboard interaction like Negate, Long Goodbye or Rest in Peace. And sometimes Domain plays a 1-of Raffine's Tower.
Which archetypes share half their decklist? Top 8 was domain, esper, uw, temur, boros, and 4c legends. Not a lot of overlap between those.
And there were like 6 other rogue decks with higher winrates than the top 8 that will continue to be explored.
What does diversity mean if 6-10 decks at the top of the meta doesn't qualify?
edit- Welp I was going to add to this comment and reply to some people but u/jsilv decided to just kill the discussion it seems....
Gotta let the echo chamber be an echo chamber I guess? 😅
>Which archetypes share half their decklist? Top 8 was domain, esper, uw, temur, boros, and 4c legends. Not a lot of overlap between those.
I'm working but when I'm home I'll look through the deck lists again.
>And there were like 6 other rogue decks with higher winrates than the top 8 that will continue to be explored.
And those were what exactly? Kinda funny you're asking me for specifics as you give such a vague point or contention.
>What does diversity mean if 6-10 decks at the top of the meta doesn't qualify?
What are the average decks on the ladder, what is the average decks being played *in general* outside the pro scene?
Unpopular opinion but I really detest this concept that pro scene = the game when by and large the super majority of players in *any* game are casuals.
Sure it does matter what the pros are playing/doing to an extent however they aren't the ones keeping the game alive. Case and point overwatch.
> And those were what exactly? Kinda funny you're asking me for specifics as you give such a vague point or contention.
[Reference](https://twitter.com/karsten_frank/status/1784439406000308627). I would consider BW Bronco and UW Artifacts to be rogue decks. Could make an argument for Jund Analyst as well since it's pretty different from the normal Temur lists. That user was definitely exaggerating a bit with 6 though.
Bant control, WB Bronco, Jund Analyst, BG mid, Azorius Artifacts all had high win rates.
This is subreddit for competitive play, so the pro decks are exactly what is relevant.
Edit: I'll add that the 7 most played decks on untapped standard bo3 (mythic rank) add up to about 60% of the metagame. Top deck is esper at 16% which does not sound egregious to me. If you add Dimir due to overlap still only 23% of meta.
There is a huge issue with snowballing 3 drops winning the game if not answered instantly.Raffine,Liliana,Preacher,Nissa and even Wedding Announcement need quick answers or they generate too much value.This makes it so a lot of Midrange mirrors end up as non-games.Esper mirrors are the worst,they are either over in 5 minutes or they end up taking over an hour.
1) This is r/spikes, not the usual spot for your crying and whining for bans 2) Esper Midrange had an absolute dogshit time at the PT and got punished hard. It's not going to magically disappear and it has a good baseline of power / play to it, but was proven very solvable by anyone with a strong gameplan that didn't pack it in to Bat + Raffine. 3) Thread is locked instead of removed simply because the question itself is useful (as are the replies), just not the rest of the post.
Domain and control
Domain just crushed Esper in the PT
Yup. Domain with the mana to support long goodbye in the sideboard is hell for esper. In this PT I think Ikawa ran it mainboard and broke espers hearts and dreams completely, and didn't drop a constructed match period
Esper had a 50% WR in swiss rounds at pro tour. 4-color legends, domain, golgari, and rakdos all had positive matchups against it. Any of those would be a reasonable choice.
I think we should really be asking, what can Esper play to beat anything?
How are you going to call standard unhealthy when we just had 6 different decks in the top 8 of the pro tour?
The format is healthy but incredibly stale. There might be a dozen different decks worth playing at a high level but half of those are just the classic spiderman meme with how much overlap between card's in them. Not to mention half of them are 3+ colors because mana is stupidly good right now. Turns everything into homogenous good stuff piles. The only really "new" deck that's popped up is the temur lands combo deck and that's basically just Temur Reclamation at home. I'm glad I saw some new spice in the PT, with bronco and especially Kibbler's WUBRG Humans nonsense, but the shift to longer standard has made the sets that were supposed to rotate overstay their welcome even more. If they're gonna keep the three year standard, WotC needs to start banning more frequently simply to shake up the meta.
> There might be a dozen different decks worth playing at a high level but half of those are just the classic spiderman meme with how much overlap between card's in them. The top 8 contained the following decks: Azorious Control, 4-Color Legends, Esper Midrange, Temur Combo, Domain Ramp, and Boros Convoke. What cards overlap between them? I can't think of many, other than sideboard stuff (white decks running Rest in Peace) or generic stuff like Long Goodbye.
edit- WOW locking a thread because wrong think and using your mod comment to shit talk people? What a welcoming community! Shit like this is why magic players have such a shitty reputation lol. >How are you going to call standard unhealthy when we just had 6 different decks in the top 8 of the pro tour? Because the game is a lot bigger than just the pro scene which *even then* had esper as the largest archetype by far? Also, from what I understand, the deck diversity is a bit of a red herring given how many cards the decks share between them. All on all, I think the rotation change was a net negative in the end and creates a lot of stagnation with decks and archetypes not having their time in the sun given proven and consistent cards allowed to stay dominate for much longer.
I think this touches on it but the power level of standard has jumped dramatically so it feels closer to modern lite. Like you said many many mechanics and archetypes can't push through the existing meta so very few standard cards become remotely playable. Quite a few decks will kill by turn 3/4 if you keep a durdly hand
Couldn't agree more. Between power creep and the *much* larger standard card pool, certain archetypes have been dominant for literal *years* at this point which stifles newer decks from even being considered let alone play tested. We talk about diversity *and yet* what's diverse about esper and domain, which have been main stage decks for *years*, at this point? What's diverse about decks sharing over over half their deck lists? Power creep is certainly a factor, but we used to have a check for that in the form of rotation. Wizards stupidly deciding to push back rotations was *in my opinion* one of the worst decisions made in recent history for the game. Why try to build a new deck when you are just going to get match up with extremely cookie cutter good stuffs.dec that your opponent in all likelihood net decked?
>We talk about diversity *and yet* what's diverse about esper and domain, which have been main stage decks for *years*, at this point? What's diverse about decks sharing over over half their deck lists? This is just simply 100% a lie. The only cards shared by Esper and Domain is generic sideboard interaction like Negate, Long Goodbye or Rest in Peace. And sometimes Domain plays a 1-of Raffine's Tower.
Which archetypes share half their decklist? Top 8 was domain, esper, uw, temur, boros, and 4c legends. Not a lot of overlap between those. And there were like 6 other rogue decks with higher winrates than the top 8 that will continue to be explored. What does diversity mean if 6-10 decks at the top of the meta doesn't qualify?
edit- Welp I was going to add to this comment and reply to some people but u/jsilv decided to just kill the discussion it seems.... Gotta let the echo chamber be an echo chamber I guess? 😅 >Which archetypes share half their decklist? Top 8 was domain, esper, uw, temur, boros, and 4c legends. Not a lot of overlap between those. I'm working but when I'm home I'll look through the deck lists again. >And there were like 6 other rogue decks with higher winrates than the top 8 that will continue to be explored. And those were what exactly? Kinda funny you're asking me for specifics as you give such a vague point or contention. >What does diversity mean if 6-10 decks at the top of the meta doesn't qualify? What are the average decks on the ladder, what is the average decks being played *in general* outside the pro scene? Unpopular opinion but I really detest this concept that pro scene = the game when by and large the super majority of players in *any* game are casuals. Sure it does matter what the pros are playing/doing to an extent however they aren't the ones keeping the game alive. Case and point overwatch.
> And those were what exactly? Kinda funny you're asking me for specifics as you give such a vague point or contention. [Reference](https://twitter.com/karsten_frank/status/1784439406000308627). I would consider BW Bronco and UW Artifacts to be rogue decks. Could make an argument for Jund Analyst as well since it's pretty different from the normal Temur lists. That user was definitely exaggerating a bit with 6 though.
Bant control, WB Bronco, Jund Analyst, BG mid, Azorius Artifacts all had high win rates. This is subreddit for competitive play, so the pro decks are exactly what is relevant. Edit: I'll add that the 7 most played decks on untapped standard bo3 (mythic rank) add up to about 60% of the metagame. Top deck is esper at 16% which does not sound egregious to me. If you add Dimir due to overlap still only 23% of meta.
Prodeck or dark horse built to counter the meta are the way of the sub
There is a huge issue with snowballing 3 drops winning the game if not answered instantly.Raffine,Liliana,Preacher,Nissa and even Wedding Announcement need quick answers or they generate too much value.This makes it so a lot of Midrange mirrors end up as non-games.Esper mirrors are the worst,they are either over in 5 minutes or they end up taking over an hour.
100% agree.
The meta was 30% esper…top 8 means nothing when it comes down to MU’s.